1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,199 Speaker 1: Camp hell an Awake is a production of I Heart Radio. 2 00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:06,640 Speaker 1: The views and opinions expressing this podcast are solely those 3 00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:09,799 Speaker 1: of the author and participants and do not necessarily represent 4 00:00:09,880 --> 00:00:12,840 Speaker 1: those of I Heeart Media or its employees. Due to 5 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:17,720 Speaker 1: discussion of traumatic, sexual, and violent content, listeners, discussion is advised. 6 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:23,320 Speaker 1: The whole episode was almost surreal. I moved to Atlanta 7 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 1: in X seven, became a graduate student. Needed money, so 8 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 1: I looked under psychologists in the phone book in the 9 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:34,880 Speaker 1: yellow pages, and there was something called any Wakey Foundation, 10 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:38,400 Speaker 1: and I said, what the dickens is that? This is 11 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:41,200 Speaker 1: Roger Brenn. He was an early employee at ana Waki. 12 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:47,279 Speaker 1: Today he's a clinical psychologist and currently practices in Huntsville, Alabama. 13 00:00:47,640 --> 00:00:51,479 Speaker 1: First person I talked to was Lewis Petter, and on 14 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 1: the phone he asked my credentials. He said, you're exactly 15 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:57,640 Speaker 1: what I'm looking for, and so I drove out to 16 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 1: his offices. Lewis Heater came out and introduced himself to me, 17 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:04,160 Speaker 1: and we sat in his office and he hired me 18 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 1: on the spot. I was probably there fifteen minutes. He said, 19 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 1: do you want to work with us? It sounded like 20 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:13,000 Speaker 1: a fun exciting place I thought I could grow. He 21 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:16,280 Speaker 1: basically made me the clinical director. There was no other 22 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:20,160 Speaker 1: mental health person on the campus per se. Now he 23 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:24,680 Speaker 1: had a license to practice psychology, but had been grandfather, 24 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:27,720 Speaker 1: and he had doctor in front of his name. I 25 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:30,560 Speaker 1: didn't know for several months what that meant, but he 26 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 1: had an honorary doctorate degree, and from that point on 27 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:38,800 Speaker 1: I thought he was a real psychologist. When medical licensing 28 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:41,560 Speaker 1: laws came into play in the United States, if you 29 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:45,080 Speaker 1: already had a master's degree and had been practicing psychology 30 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 1: for a number of years, you were able to obtain 31 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:51,040 Speaker 1: a license as a one time clause. Roger explained that 32 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:53,880 Speaker 1: this would not fly today, but at the time you 33 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 1: were grandfathered in. Such was the case with Anna Waki's founder, 34 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 1: Lewis Petter. There was no training Number one. It was 35 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:06,360 Speaker 1: all on the job. The boys were required to build 36 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:09,560 Speaker 1: their own lodging. UH. They did a lot of their 37 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:12,079 Speaker 1: own cooking. UH. They had to make sure that they 38 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 1: stayed in groups and worked in groups and teams. I've 39 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:18,959 Speaker 1: been there about six months, and of course it took 40 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:23,000 Speaker 1: me a while to get acclimated to the camp, and 41 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:24,840 Speaker 1: at the same time I started thinking there were some 42 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 1: unusual things. Well, we started suspecting that there was some 43 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 1: kind of sexual misconduct. Couldn't prove it, kids wouldn't admit it, 44 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:35,160 Speaker 1: so we sort of hung in there to see what 45 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:41,280 Speaker 1: we could find out. Over the past several weeks we 46 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 1: have received the number of very serious allegations concerning both 47 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:47,040 Speaker 1: the facility out there in a number of individuals involved 48 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 1: with him. It was just a form of their therapy. 49 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:53,200 Speaker 1: They were told to do it, and at the time 50 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:55,720 Speaker 1: he was fourteen and a half fifteen years old, they 51 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:59,000 Speaker 1: didn't know any better. I asked him, why are you 52 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:01,760 Speaker 1: letting this hypen? Why are you covering up for Louis Patter. 53 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:09,239 Speaker 1: He had no answer to that question, having paid its little, 54 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 1: such destricable place, and to do absolutely the contrary of 55 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:21,919 Speaker 1: what they should have said. I'm disturbable the fact of 56 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 1: something I can still got on it and I wake you. 57 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:32,360 Speaker 1: I'm Josh Stain and this is Camp Hell Anawaki. In 58 00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 1: speaking with former patients and employees of Anawaki, I heard 59 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:40,800 Speaker 1: a range of experiences, some heartbreaking, some inspiring, and some 60 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 1: that were straight horrific. To understand what led to these experiences, 61 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:47,760 Speaker 1: we need to look at how this institution was initially 62 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 1: set up. What were its purposes? And why were so 63 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 1: many parents sending their children there? I tried to find 64 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:56,080 Speaker 1: anyone who could give me an idea of what the 65 00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:59,080 Speaker 1: early days of Annawaki were like. It was out in 66 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:01,720 Speaker 1: the woods. Was a dirt road going into it. Outside 67 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:05,080 Speaker 1: Douglasville was still a dirt road. The Aniwaki sign was 68 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 1: there in a path where the Abulds are going to 69 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:11,560 Speaker 1: be built. Down below that was the small little school 70 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 1: room and one lodge, and then as you go down 71 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:17,680 Speaker 1: into the campsite there was a tool room and stuff. 72 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:22,320 Speaker 1: My name is Richard Edgerley. I got recruited there in nineteen. 73 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:27,440 Speaker 1: My number was e seventy nine. That means Richard was 74 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:30,719 Speaker 1: only the seventy nine person to attend an awake. He 75 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 1: says he was admitted when he was around the age 76 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:36,720 Speaker 1: of ten or eleven. The lake was being built. It 77 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:38,839 Speaker 1: wasn't like hite finished because I worked on that for 78 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:41,560 Speaker 1: I would say a month before they filled it up. 79 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:45,599 Speaker 1: The cabins had just received power. Fact the place where 80 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 1: they stuck the poles and it was still flat, so 81 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:50,799 Speaker 1: it hadn't it time to grow up. An Awaki Lakes 82 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 1: still sits in Douglasville and can easily be seen on 83 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:57,360 Speaker 1: any map. This was one of Richard's original work projects. 84 00:04:57,400 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 1: While attending in the beginning was that's what everybody was 85 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 1: working on. The lake clearance, stumps, burning the wood, the grass, 86 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:09,920 Speaker 1: cutting with sling blades, lots of trail building because everything 87 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:13,040 Speaker 1: was new. We line all our trails of the rocks. 88 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:15,840 Speaker 1: We used to have competitions to see who could move 89 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 1: the biggest rock. In fact, the one my friend and 90 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:21,280 Speaker 1: I did is still sitting there exactly where it's set. 91 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 1: Fifty years ago. We stay in the cabins. We built 92 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:28,040 Speaker 1: two extensions. They weren't finished totally. A couple of the 93 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 1: cabins had the foundation for an add on to the 94 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 1: building and it wasn't done during my time. We knocked 95 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:38,400 Speaker 1: down the wall and built that extension. During that time 96 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:41,719 Speaker 1: we installed heating panels, and twenty years agoing now and 97 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:43,839 Speaker 1: out there, they were still hanging and they were still working. 98 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 1: The day to day for patients at an Awaki was 99 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:49,919 Speaker 1: set by a self planned schedule. It was to be 100 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:53,240 Speaker 1: followed by the letter. On Sundays, we have to write 101 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:55,800 Speaker 1: a schedule of everything we did for that week from 102 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:59,160 Speaker 1: morning to night five three would bake up five forty five, 103 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 1: we get dressed. Six o'clock we would assemble as a group. 104 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 1: Six ten we would move to the lodge. We would 105 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:08,360 Speaker 1: have to walk around the lake. Seven o'clock was breakfast, 106 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:11,560 Speaker 1: always thirty minutes. Eight o'clock we go to the tool room, 107 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:13,600 Speaker 1: check out the tools. Depending on what we had to 108 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 1: do that day, axes, rakes, whatever, we'd actually go to 109 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:22,520 Speaker 1: whatever project it was, cutting grass, lining trails, building things 110 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 1: in the camp, helping other groups build their stuff, cleaning 111 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:30,600 Speaker 1: out sewage ponds, painting, staining. Eleven o'clock we would stop 112 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:34,280 Speaker 1: clean up. Twelve o'clock, lunch, one o'clock we'd go back 113 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 1: to work. At three thirty four o'clock we would stop 114 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 1: back to the lodge and think again what happened with dinner. 115 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:42,240 Speaker 1: Three minutes after that, we went back to our campsites 116 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 1: and had a group meeting. Could range anywhere sixties seven o'clock, 117 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:48,599 Speaker 1: and that was in the back of the campsite, split 118 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:51,279 Speaker 1: logs around the fire pit. The group would sit there 119 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 1: and talk and work out our problems and say what 120 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 1: happened during the day. And then after that we'd have 121 00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 1: free time activities. Letter writing showers ever we need to do, 122 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:05,160 Speaker 1: and then twenty around there lights out. It wasn't that bad. 123 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 1: It kept you busy, and you had your friends and 124 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:11,240 Speaker 1: bec you didn't have any time to thank nearly at all. 125 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 1: This rigid daily structure provided the patients of an awaki 126 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 1: with a predictable routine, a widely accepted strategy to reduce 127 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 1: problem behaviors in children with emotional behavioral issues. So what 128 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:27,400 Speaker 1: doesn't mean to be diagnosed with an emotional behavioral issue? 129 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 1: The answer is more complicated than you may think. I 130 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:33,240 Speaker 1: went to speak with an expert who could shed some 131 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:36,800 Speaker 1: light on the subject. My name is Steve Trustcott. I 132 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 1: am a professor at Georgia State University in the school 133 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:42,960 Speaker 1: Psychology program. And I'm Katherine Perkins, and I'm also a 134 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:47,080 Speaker 1: professor in school psychology at Georgia State. I asked Stephen 135 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 1: Catherine to explain what it means to have a child 136 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:53,680 Speaker 1: with emotional behavioral issues. One of the things that is 137 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 1: probably going to make your story complicated is that there 138 00:07:57,080 --> 00:08:01,560 Speaker 1: are multiple systems for determining what or a child has 139 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 1: an emotional or behavior disorder, and within those systems, there 140 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 1: are different definitions. There's a legal system. There's an educational system, 141 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:13,920 Speaker 1: and then there's a system of psychiatric kind of disorders, 142 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 1: and they overlap some but they're not the same, so 143 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:22,240 Speaker 1: i'll give you up. For instance, the classification using the 144 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:27,680 Speaker 1: Diagnostic and Statistical Manual identifies about ten of us population 145 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 1: of children notes having an emotional or behavioral disorder, whereas 146 00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:36,000 Speaker 1: the school based definition only about a little less than 147 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:38,880 Speaker 1: one percent of kids or kids who are classified as 148 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:41,599 Speaker 1: having an emotional or behavior disorder. So there's a disparity 149 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:44,680 Speaker 1: between those and part of the disparity is that the 150 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 1: criteria are different. So the criteria for a special education 151 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:51,240 Speaker 1: for the label of eb D and Georgia. That's another 152 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:54,120 Speaker 1: thing is the labels change across the states, but in 153 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:57,880 Speaker 1: Georgia it's eb D. The label requires there to be 154 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 1: an educational impact. Basically, the term emotional behavioral issue is 155 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:08,840 Speaker 1: not a universal standard. What qualifies as emotionally disturbed changes 156 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:12,079 Speaker 1: depending on the context in which it is determined, whether 157 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 1: it be by a school, hospital, or otherwise. This is 158 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:18,400 Speaker 1: something that would give in a waky enough wiggle room 159 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:22,079 Speaker 1: to claim anyone could be accepted based on the facility standards. 160 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:27,800 Speaker 1: Emotional behavioral disturbance is the label that was given by 161 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 1: the federal government. That's in this law Individuals for Disabilities 162 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 1: Education Act that specifies what students qualify for special education 163 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:43,040 Speaker 1: in public schools. That's what that label is. And then, 164 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 1: like my colleague pointed out, there are other labeling systems 165 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:50,760 Speaker 1: that are more medically oriented, or you know, the judicial 166 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 1: system has their own label, which is guilty or not guilty, 167 00:09:55,160 --> 00:09:58,720 Speaker 1: and so it's a little confusing. But the federal law 168 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:04,840 Speaker 1: for special education clearly outlines the criteria that you're looking 169 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:09,120 Speaker 1: at to determine if a child meets that criteria for 170 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 1: emotional behavior of disturbance. There isn't a definitive way to 171 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:17,960 Speaker 1: say this kid does and this kid doesn't have that disability. 172 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:22,080 Speaker 1: Catherine and Steve pointed out that just because a child 173 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:26,199 Speaker 1: is labeled as emotionally disturbed, that doesn't make that criteria 174 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:29,000 Speaker 1: the same in Georgia as it may be in Alabama 175 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 1: or Florida. This term is a blanket that could be 176 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:35,160 Speaker 1: used in a number of situations. Some of these would 177 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:40,360 Speaker 1: not only include school, but also the judiciary system. The 178 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:45,800 Speaker 1: definition in Georgia is based on five primary concerns. The 179 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:49,840 Speaker 1: first one is an inability to build or maintain satisfactory 180 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:54,839 Speaker 1: interpersonal relationships with peers and or teachers. An inability to 181 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:58,960 Speaker 1: learn which cannot be adequately explained by intellectual, sensory, or 182 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 1: health factors. The third one is a consistent or chronic 183 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:08,560 Speaker 1: inappropriate type of behavior or feelings under normal situations. The 184 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:12,359 Speaker 1: fourth is a displayed pervasive mood of unhappiness or depression, 185 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:16,040 Speaker 1: and the last one is a displayed tendency to develop 186 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:20,800 Speaker 1: physical symptoms, pains, or unreasonable fears associated with personal or 187 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:25,560 Speaker 1: school problems. So those are kind of the five hallmarks 188 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 1: of students who are identified as having eb D. So 189 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:33,359 Speaker 1: here's how I think of it. There's typical childhood development, 190 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:37,600 Speaker 1: you know, the way most kids grow and learn, and 191 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:40,640 Speaker 1: then sometimes the kind of behaviors that we're talking about 192 00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:45,960 Speaker 1: when we're talking about eb D. They may be perfectly 193 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 1: typical and normal, but then if they persist into other 194 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:56,760 Speaker 1: developmental stages, they might look very different. So, for example, 195 00:11:57,160 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 1: many people talk about the terrible twos, have you know, 196 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:05,360 Speaker 1: tantrum behavior and very young children who are trying to 197 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:07,760 Speaker 1: find their way in the world and are trying to 198 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 1: assert their power and their choice and their decision making. 199 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:15,360 Speaker 1: And then if they don't get their way, they let 200 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:18,960 Speaker 1: you know they're not happy about that. But that same 201 00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:22,200 Speaker 1: tantrum behavior that would be typical with a two year 202 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:26,240 Speaker 1: old starts looking very different in a school aged child. 203 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 1: And so it's when these behaviors persist with frequency, intensity, 204 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:39,320 Speaker 1: and duration beyond that that is seen in typically developing children, 205 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:46,560 Speaker 1: that's when we start saying, Oh, that's problematic. And how 206 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:49,400 Speaker 1: do parents react when faced with this type of situation? 207 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:52,280 Speaker 1: And how did so many come to the conclusion that 208 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:56,320 Speaker 1: Anna Waki was the answer. I spoke with Richard Dressler. 209 00:12:56,559 --> 00:12:59,960 Speaker 1: He part time serves as a motivational speaker helping family 210 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:03,480 Speaker 1: deal with crisis. His son was also sent to an 211 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:06,680 Speaker 1: awake as a team. I asked him what it was 212 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:10,000 Speaker 1: like dealing with a child with emotional behavior issues and 213 00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:12,240 Speaker 1: how he came to the conclusion to send him to 214 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 1: an awake. Oh. Desperation, helplessness, anxiety, frustration. When people ask 215 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:24,440 Speaker 1: me that question about being a parent, and I tell him, look, 216 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 1: we're not giving any guide books to read how to 217 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 1: be a parent. Okay, it's a daily experience. It's a 218 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:35,000 Speaker 1: constant struggle between your head and your heart and knowing 219 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 1: what you should do, what you don't want to do. 220 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:40,840 Speaker 1: There was no place, because I look back, that I 221 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:45,160 Speaker 1: felt I could go to that could really help me. 222 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:50,280 Speaker 1: There are more programs today that are more advanced. There's 223 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:55,200 Speaker 1: more advancements about drug abuse. There's more what I would 224 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:58,960 Speaker 1: call openness in society. So the only thing you could 225 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:04,199 Speaker 1: do back then is trust your psychiatrist, who also was 226 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:07,280 Speaker 1: duped and knew nothing about what was going on at 227 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:11,240 Speaker 1: any of these places like an Awake. Richard says in Awake, 228 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:14,079 Speaker 1: he was first presented to him by his son's psychiatrist. 229 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:16,840 Speaker 1: This would often be how children would get referred to 230 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:21,200 Speaker 1: an Awaki through a doctor or teacher. If I remember right. 231 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:24,840 Speaker 1: He described it as a psychiatric institute that can help 232 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:28,040 Speaker 1: him adjust or change his personality and behavior on a 233 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:32,520 Speaker 1: long term treatment program. Okay, and I accepted that. Richard 234 00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:35,320 Speaker 1: and his wife visited the Anawaki campus for a tour 235 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 1: before deciding whether to send their son there. This is 236 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:42,760 Speaker 1: how the Anawaki staff explain their treatment center. They talked 237 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:47,640 Speaker 1: about the fact that it was a psychiatric facility. They 238 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:51,200 Speaker 1: forewarned us about the possibility of some of the incidents 239 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 1: that occurred, and that is we have to break down 240 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:57,600 Speaker 1: their personality we're gonna read all the letters that come in, 241 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 1: all the phone calls. There was no privacy, and we 242 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 1: hope you expect that will probably complain about some of 243 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:09,360 Speaker 1: these issues. All these things are normal. At that point 244 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:13,880 Speaker 1: I accepted it, knowing what I briefly knew about these 245 00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:18,640 Speaker 1: kind of programs. Looking back now, I think it was 246 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:24,720 Speaker 1: one great anticipated thing they did so that you wouldn't 247 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:28,160 Speaker 1: question what they were really doing. So when your son 248 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:30,920 Speaker 1: came home and complained they're abusing me and I want 249 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 1: to leave and this is happening to me, you would 250 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:36,400 Speaker 1: just go back, well, look he's got these psychiatric problems 251 00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:39,640 Speaker 1: and needs treatment, and I'm assuming that what they told 252 00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 1: me is true, which we did. In retrospect, I have 253 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:46,320 Speaker 1: to say that, based on my experience, they probably like 254 00:15:46,520 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 1: to us. For parents dealing with an adolescent with emotional issues, 255 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:09,440 Speaker 1: they can often feel like they have nowhere to turn. 256 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:12,920 Speaker 1: Annawaki was the solution for many of these parents in 257 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:16,800 Speaker 1: Georgia in the nineteen sixties through the nineteen eighties. What 258 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:20,000 Speaker 1: was Antawaki doing to treat these children put into their control? 259 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:25,760 Speaker 1: Psychologist Roger Brinn explains the origins of wilderness therapy. It's 260 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:29,000 Speaker 1: been a rule of thumb that if you get kids 261 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:33,920 Speaker 1: into the woods and impel them into some type of adventure, uh, 262 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:38,040 Speaker 1: they do better. And that if they have delinquent proclivities, 263 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 1: if they're going to break the law or to become oppositional, 264 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:44,400 Speaker 1: if they do much better, and that it's a great treatment. 265 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:46,960 Speaker 1: And since then we found that that probably is a 266 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:50,400 Speaker 1: case if it's structured correctly and done right. There was 267 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 1: a book called Wilderness Road, and as I recall, there 268 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 1: was a businessman's club in Dallas, Texas that sponsored the 269 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:04,200 Speaker 1: original residential treatment center for kids, particularly boys. In Our 270 00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:08,320 Speaker 1: program at Antawaki was supposed to be designed after that program, 271 00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:11,680 Speaker 1: and it was similar. The boys were required to build 272 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:14,480 Speaker 1: their own lodging, they did a lot of their own cooking. 273 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:16,960 Speaker 1: They had to make sure that they stayed in groups 274 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:20,960 Speaker 1: and worked in groups and teams, and putting the kids 275 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:25,520 Speaker 1: in the woods made sense. Wilderness Road, published in nine 276 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:29,520 Speaker 1: five by Campbell Loch Miller, has served as the manual 277 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:32,760 Speaker 1: for much of what we know today as wilderness therapy. 278 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 1: Camp Woodland Springs was started in by Lock Miller as 279 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:40,040 Speaker 1: an expansion of a summer camp program. He began with 280 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:43,240 Speaker 1: the Salesman's Club of Dallas, a group of business and 281 00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:47,480 Speaker 1: professional men from the area. The parallels between Woodland Springs 282 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:51,200 Speaker 1: and Antawaki are numerous, from a campground setting where the 283 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:53,640 Speaker 1: children are in charge of their own lodging and meals, 284 00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:57,640 Speaker 1: to isolating patients into groups, and even alluding to Native 285 00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 1: American terminology. Lock Miller was known around his camp as 286 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:05,840 Speaker 1: Chief Lock. The following is an excerpt from Wilderness Road. 287 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:11,280 Speaker 1: We find the camp environment good because it accords more 288 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:15,199 Speaker 1: fully with the child's nature and provides ample opportunity to 289 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:19,600 Speaker 1: satisfy the desire most boys have for adventure and exploration 290 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:23,480 Speaker 1: in the outdoors. Small group living in this environment encourages 291 00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:28,600 Speaker 1: original experimentation and provides the widest possible variety of direct 292 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:32,440 Speaker 1: experience with the natural surroundings. Such a life calls into 293 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 1: play numerous individual skills, provides an outlet for almost any 294 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:39,959 Speaker 1: ability a boy may have, and constantly encourages new and 295 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:44,480 Speaker 1: ever broadening experiences of the individual and the group. Life 296 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:48,159 Speaker 1: in this setting provides for the maximum variety, freshness, and 297 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:54,520 Speaker 1: intensity in the daily experience of each boy. Most of 298 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:57,720 Speaker 1: Anawaki's therapy consisted of a daily group meeting at the 299 00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:00,359 Speaker 1: end of each day, a time where the always in 300 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:02,720 Speaker 1: your work or school group would sit around the fire 301 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:06,800 Speaker 1: and address any issues they encountered in their day. After dinner, 302 00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:09,919 Speaker 1: we had group therapy on logs and that was just 303 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:13,880 Speaker 1: about every night. I worked with the staff. Everybody had 304 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 1: two staff leaders to group leaders in each group, so 305 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:21,959 Speaker 1: you have about eight kids and two adults, maybe ten kids, 306 00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:24,520 Speaker 1: and they would do group therapy and work on what 307 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:28,040 Speaker 1: went on that day in process to day. Mark Butler 308 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:33,080 Speaker 1: attended in Awake from four to He remembers the group 309 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 1: therapy which was still taking place during his time there. 310 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:40,480 Speaker 1: The guidance counselors would kind of push you along and 311 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:44,320 Speaker 1: you know, I begin to things and it was also 312 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:47,280 Speaker 1: time to go over the day. What happened? Were there 313 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:51,080 Speaker 1: any incidents? Why did this happen? Because people got in 314 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:55,920 Speaker 1: trouble all the time. These groups would serve an integral 315 00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:59,960 Speaker 1: part to the in Awaki program. Children were separated based 316 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:02,919 Speaker 1: on different factors such as age and whether they were 317 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:06,199 Speaker 1: in a work group or school group. Staying on brand, 318 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 1: These groups were all given Native American names, names such 319 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:15,600 Speaker 1: as Tawanka, Kirkeeed, and Wahonka. Most of the groups of 320 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 1: Anuwaki were done by age limits. Like Wahonka was the 321 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:21,640 Speaker 1: older groups, the one they went to school, alf campus 322 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:26,680 Speaker 1: had the cars. Twanka was the youngest and arranged from 323 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:30,160 Speaker 1: eight till like twelve or thirteen. Then you had other 324 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 1: groups that were ranging groups like maybe twelve, fifteen and 325 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:38,920 Speaker 1: fifteen and sixteen or eighteen. Tuanka where I was at, 326 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:42,720 Speaker 1: was literal translations to attempt or undertake a difficult task. 327 00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:45,399 Speaker 1: And like Antawaki is supposed to be the land of 328 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:50,800 Speaker 1: the friendly people. Here's journalist Albert Edgin who reported on 329 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:56,119 Speaker 1: in Awaki extensively for the Tallahassee Democrat. They were broken 330 00:20:56,200 --> 00:21:02,480 Speaker 1: up into groups, and the groups were are designed for 331 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:09,200 Speaker 1: therapy and also for growth, so they had tasks they 332 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:14,240 Speaker 1: had to perform in the groups monitored the behavior of 333 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:18,000 Speaker 1: the kids in the group. The groups were independent. They 334 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:20,040 Speaker 1: were not supposed to cross polony. They were not supposed 335 00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 1: to talk to each other. Mark Butler recalls this group 336 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:27,080 Speaker 1: structure and how it functioned during his time there. I 337 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:30,399 Speaker 1: classify him into two groups, the word groups and the 338 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:33,960 Speaker 1: school groups. The word groups are always working. The school 339 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:37,360 Speaker 1: groups are always going to school. When I was there, 340 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:41,920 Speaker 1: I believe there's about tended twelve working groups and there 341 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:44,600 Speaker 1: was no socializing between the groups. Of course we did 342 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:47,320 Speaker 1: a little bit in anyway. I guess they kept thinking 343 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:50,160 Speaker 1: that if they kept the groups smaller and more contained, 344 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:54,080 Speaker 1: and it's much easier to handle, I guess. But then 345 00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:57,520 Speaker 1: there was things like football where they would have to 346 00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:01,840 Speaker 1: be group mixing. You know, Okay, football players come from 347 00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:06,120 Speaker 1: different groups, so there was always some kind of talk 348 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:12,680 Speaker 1: between the groups. The work group model would serve two functions. 349 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:15,919 Speaker 1: At in Awaki to build what would become the largest 350 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:19,760 Speaker 1: medical facility in the state, and second to help break 351 00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:22,800 Speaker 1: down the patients so they could be remolded into the 352 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:26,399 Speaker 1: inn Awaky way of life. That was the idea at least, 353 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:31,600 Speaker 1: here's Mark Sublett, another former in Awaky patient. So if 354 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:33,639 Speaker 1: you had a building group, they might come in and 355 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:36,399 Speaker 1: you might do all the masonry. Okay, so you're the 356 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:39,359 Speaker 1: masonry group. So he cleared all the land, poured all 357 00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:43,240 Speaker 1: the concrete foundations, hauled all the block out there, laid 358 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:45,960 Speaker 1: all the block next, all the mud, did all the plaster, 359 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:48,560 Speaker 1: did it all and then another group might come behind 360 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:51,200 Speaker 1: you and they might be a carpentry group. So that's 361 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:55,080 Speaker 1: what they would do, And it seemed like sometimes the 362 00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 1: groups would split off and would help the electrician and 363 00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 1: be the electrical groups they've thing pulling wire doing all 364 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:06,280 Speaker 1: this stuff. I think an Awakes look on it was 365 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:09,720 Speaker 1: that they wanted to tell you, like, what we're gonna 366 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:12,119 Speaker 1: do is make your life real shitty and you're gonna 367 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:14,240 Speaker 1: hate it. So what would you want to do to 368 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:17,040 Speaker 1: get out of your shitty, hated life? And they told 369 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:19,960 Speaker 1: you that from the beginning, like, hey, from here on out, boy, 370 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:21,800 Speaker 1: you're gonna have to work the rest of your life, 371 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 1: and you better get used to it. That's your life 372 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:26,600 Speaker 1: from here on out. Unless you go to school and 373 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:29,600 Speaker 1: get that education, then you might be able to do better. 374 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:32,359 Speaker 1: So kind of right off, their feeding that into your mind. 375 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:38,159 Speaker 1: This separation between work groups and school groups was the 376 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:41,679 Speaker 1: beginning of an involved hierarchy at an Awaki. It was 377 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:44,639 Speaker 1: only after one had proven themselves through a series of 378 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:47,960 Speaker 1: tasks and personal development that they would receive a rite 379 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:51,040 Speaker 1: of passage. All of the attendees were expected to achieve 380 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:54,920 Speaker 1: to get your crest. I don't think I've ever cried 381 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:57,000 Speaker 1: as much in my life as when he stood up 382 00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:00,480 Speaker 1: when he got his crest, which is a certain achievement, 383 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 1: and said, I'd like to thank my parents for letting 384 00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:07,520 Speaker 1: me enough to send me here. The crest would serve 385 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:11,000 Speaker 1: as one of the key elements of Anawaki's mythos. An 386 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:15,120 Speaker 1: Anawakee document called Legend of the Crest reads as follows, 387 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:22,200 Speaker 1: The pine tree and red hill are the materials found 388 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:25,440 Speaker 1: in nature, which man may use, according to his ability 389 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:29,639 Speaker 1: and ambition, to improve the state of his existence in nature. 390 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 1: The scroll depicts the democratic concept of the value of 391 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:37,520 Speaker 1: the individual and also the importance of one's relationship to 392 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 1: other individuals. The winding path to the rising sun signifies 393 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:46,639 Speaker 1: the importance of striving toward a goal in life, using 394 00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:51,159 Speaker 1: the self discipline necessary to overcome obstacles which may present 395 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:55,359 Speaker 1: themselves in reaching of that goal. The praying hands show 396 00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:58,879 Speaker 1: the need for a religious concept, the recognition of a 397 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:01,879 Speaker 1: power in the universe which is higher than the individual. 398 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:05,639 Speaker 1: The dovel with the olive branch was selected from the 399 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:08,480 Speaker 1: story of Noah in the Bible to show that a 400 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:15,359 Speaker 1: new life in a clean, new world is possible. The 401 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:18,320 Speaker 1: crest was not only a symbol of personal improvement an 402 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:21,680 Speaker 1: advancement in the program, but it was also required before 403 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:24,080 Speaker 1: a child could advance from a work group to a 404 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:27,800 Speaker 1: school group. Here's Stephen, another former in a wiki patient. 405 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:31,840 Speaker 1: I was pretty much in a word group most of 406 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:35,960 Speaker 1: the time. That's another one of those themes, getting your 407 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:39,960 Speaker 1: crest or getting into a school group. It was a privilege, 408 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:43,400 Speaker 1: you had to work for it, so on and so forth. 409 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:48,240 Speaker 1: And I witnessed that some of these so called privileges 410 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:52,840 Speaker 1: didn't turn out too well for for other people. When 411 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:56,600 Speaker 1: I received my crest, they had a special Christmas dinner 412 00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:01,280 Speaker 1: because I believe it took me longer to get the 413 00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:06,840 Speaker 1: crest than anybody, and ant like the history, and you 414 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:10,800 Speaker 1: know there again, it was because I saw the guys 415 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:14,360 Speaker 1: that had worked towards that and it didn't turn out 416 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:18,160 Speaker 1: too well for them. Once a patient had proven themselves 417 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:20,840 Speaker 1: worthy of getting their crest, they would then move on 418 00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:23,520 Speaker 1: to one of the school groups. The time frame from 419 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:26,520 Speaker 1: admittance until moving into a school group could often take 420 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:30,159 Speaker 1: a year's During this time, no real schooling was a 421 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:33,800 Speaker 1: part of the child schedule. In turn, grades would be 422 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:36,639 Speaker 1: caught up to in a span of months, even weeks, 423 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:39,840 Speaker 1: rather than years. In the beginning, there was not a school. 424 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:42,480 Speaker 1: The little building in front of the lodge was a 425 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:46,600 Speaker 1: one little classroom. It had the possibility of being a school. 426 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:49,840 Speaker 1: At some point they did get a teacher, but I 427 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:52,879 Speaker 1: never finished third, never went the fourth, ever went the fifth, 428 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:55,400 Speaker 1: never went the sixth, ever went to seventh. And when 429 00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:58,000 Speaker 1: I got out of an Awoki, I should have before 430 00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:00,399 Speaker 1: my age, gone into the ninth, but it put me 431 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:02,800 Speaker 1: back in eighth because it hadn't been in school for 432 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:05,280 Speaker 1: so long. So when I went to high school started 433 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,560 Speaker 1: out of eighth grade, You're willing to do whatever it 434 00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:11,320 Speaker 1: took to get out of that work group. I mean, 435 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:14,360 Speaker 1: who wanted to haul block or sling blade four miles 436 00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:17,520 Speaker 1: of road or whatever chore they would have four to 437 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:20,120 Speaker 1: you that day. Of course you're gonna want to get 438 00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:22,840 Speaker 1: out of that because you're a teenage kid and you 439 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:24,639 Speaker 1: know so that you'd be like, oh, what do I 440 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:26,760 Speaker 1: have to do to get into the school group? The 441 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:30,040 Speaker 1: school groups did no physical labor. All they would do 442 00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:32,879 Speaker 1: is go to school. Now, they would tell you this 443 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:38,080 Speaker 1: crazy story how you could do four years of education 444 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:41,440 Speaker 1: in one year. At Annawaking. By the time I got 445 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:45,480 Speaker 1: the school group, I was already three years behind. So 446 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:47,359 Speaker 1: when I got out of there and tried to enroll 447 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:52,080 Speaker 1: in public school and whatever my records were that came 448 00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:54,560 Speaker 1: back from that. I was supposed to be a senior, 449 00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:59,200 Speaker 1: but I'd be having taken ninth grade English, eighth grade, this, tenth, eleventh, 450 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:02,160 Speaker 1: twelfth grade that. So it was just kind of screwed up. 451 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:06,560 Speaker 1: But that's how they would treat their school as a privilege, 452 00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:10,520 Speaker 1: a higher group of an Awaki kid that's what you 453 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:14,760 Speaker 1: wanted to achieve. The Anawaki program worked like a ladder 454 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:18,639 Speaker 1: with a different rung for every advancement, giving more perks 455 00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:22,359 Speaker 1: and power the further up you climbed. This hierarchy would 456 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:24,840 Speaker 1: go past the advancement of getting your crest and being 457 00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:28,080 Speaker 1: promoted to a school group. Students could work their way 458 00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:30,720 Speaker 1: up to becoming a group leader or even a paid 459 00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:34,600 Speaker 1: counselor do you have one group and everything works from 460 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:37,000 Speaker 1: the head of leader of that group, and you also 461 00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 1: have a hierarchy of the kids. The new kid has 462 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:42,600 Speaker 1: to be taught by the next kid up what he's 463 00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:44,920 Speaker 1: just learned. The next kid up has to be teaching 464 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:48,360 Speaker 1: that second kid down what he's just learned. Sort of 465 00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:53,440 Speaker 1: a cascading system of learning. And it's important to remember 466 00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:56,680 Speaker 1: that these were children. They may have been adolescents, but 467 00:28:56,760 --> 00:29:00,960 Speaker 1: they were children. The counselor might have been sixteen years 468 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:06,120 Speaker 1: old responsible for a group of fifteen or twenty youngsters, 469 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:09,880 Speaker 1: probably more likely as eighteen years old, but not that 470 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:13,560 Speaker 1: much more mature, and certainly not experienced beyond the walls 471 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:17,760 Speaker 1: of an awaki or bringing any real experience to the situation. 472 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:21,400 Speaker 1: There are all sorts of stories that they would tell 473 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:26,000 Speaker 1: you that I learned later, where activity would stop when 474 00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:31,080 Speaker 1: somebody acted out, and sometimes with supervision from the group leaders, 475 00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:34,280 Speaker 1: sometimes with leadership from the members of the group, they 476 00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:39,480 Speaker 1: would counsel the recalcitrant kid, whoever he may be. It 477 00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 1: was all integrated system. It was innovative, but it was 478 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:49,600 Speaker 1: also subject for severe abuse in the sense that if 479 00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:52,400 Speaker 1: you have a situation where the people that are being 480 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:57,800 Speaker 1: counseled are empowered to enforce rules, then you have to 481 00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:00,760 Speaker 1: have stop gap measures, and I'm not sure they had 482 00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:05,280 Speaker 1: those stop gap manages. You have to supervise the children 483 00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:09,400 Speaker 1: that have been given these responsibilities. So one of the 484 00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:13,480 Speaker 1: things that deteriorated through the years was that the management, 485 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:17,720 Speaker 1: and by management I mean Louis Petter, would promote children 486 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:24,800 Speaker 1: to the status of counselor, and that appeared to be 487 00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:31,320 Speaker 1: in many cases without any substantial training. The fact is 488 00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:34,240 Speaker 1: is that a lot of these children who became counselors 489 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:38,200 Speaker 1: were incapable of dealing with situations because they hadn't been 490 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:42,680 Speaker 1: trained to and having a kid manage a situation that 491 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:45,560 Speaker 1: can only come from the kid's gut. It can't come 492 00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:48,880 Speaker 1: from training or any kind of knowledge. It was an 493 00:30:48,920 --> 00:31:10,760 Speaker 1: ad hoc system. I'm here to talk about an Awake 494 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:15,160 Speaker 1: and Louis Petter. This is Robert. He worked at in 495 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:18,040 Speaker 1: Awaki as a group leader in the late nineteen sixties. 496 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:23,120 Speaker 1: I'm Robert Augustino. I'm a law professor at John Marshall 497 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:27,760 Speaker 1: Law School, and I've been there since where I came 498 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:30,640 Speaker 1: in as i was dean in president for five years 499 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:33,560 Speaker 1: and now I'm just a mere professor sitting in my 500 00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:38,480 Speaker 1: corner office, not being pastored by the administration. Robert originally 501 00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:41,240 Speaker 1: heard about Anawaki through social work with a branch of 502 00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:45,080 Speaker 1: local government called the Department of Family and Children's Services, 503 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:49,480 Speaker 1: or as it is known de Facts. Probably sixty eight 504 00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:52,920 Speaker 1: or sixty nine. I've been a social worker and I 505 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:57,400 Speaker 1: had heard about treatment centers for allegedly delinquent boys, someone 506 00:31:57,400 --> 00:31:59,400 Speaker 1: who weren't really delinquent. They just had done him home 507 00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:02,440 Speaker 1: to go to had a very bright patient. I guess 508 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:04,320 Speaker 1: I should go him who had no place to live, 509 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:06,920 Speaker 1: and I said, well, I gotta put him someplace. I 510 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:10,320 Speaker 1: heard about Anawaki through the social work, through the information 511 00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:13,120 Speaker 1: held by the Department of Family, Mansial and Services, and 512 00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:16,560 Speaker 1: so I went to see Anuwaki. I met Louis Petter 513 00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:19,800 Speaker 1: and we talked about the program, and Petter maybe an offer. 514 00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:23,480 Speaker 1: He offered me a position there as a teacher because 515 00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:26,360 Speaker 1: I had by teaching credentials I had taught in high schools. 516 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:29,720 Speaker 1: Robert says the idea of working with at risk youth 517 00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:33,440 Speaker 1: in an outdoor setting was something that interested him right away. 518 00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:35,520 Speaker 1: When I first started to work there, I had a 519 00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:38,840 Speaker 1: group and we lived in tents in Douglasville in the 520 00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:42,800 Speaker 1: Anuwaki real estate. And I had that job, and I 521 00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:45,480 Speaker 1: also was the head teacher. And as it turned out, 522 00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:48,680 Speaker 1: I was the only teacher as far as training was concerned, 523 00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:53,479 Speaker 1: there wasn't any I had co counselor with me, and 524 00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:56,640 Speaker 1: with the boys. There's like tennor Troll boys in in 525 00:32:56,680 --> 00:33:00,000 Speaker 1: that group. He had boys separated into different groups, maybe 526 00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:02,880 Speaker 1: five or six different groups. So I was directly in 527 00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:04,680 Speaker 1: charge of one group when I was the teacher for 528 00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:08,120 Speaker 1: all the groups solely but surely. The first thing I 529 00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:11,640 Speaker 1: did out there was supervised the boys in building. It 530 00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:14,200 Speaker 1: was really a lot of fun. And I'm not very skilled, 531 00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:17,080 Speaker 1: but I can carry things around and hammer and nail. 532 00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:19,520 Speaker 1: And after we built the building, it was time to 533 00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:23,000 Speaker 1: go in the canoe trip. Better had talked about taking 534 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:26,320 Speaker 1: a bunch of boys on an outward bound type trip, 535 00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:29,800 Speaker 1: and we talked about the Swannee River. I always wanted 536 00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:32,240 Speaker 1: a canoe the whole Swanny. I'd been down there and 537 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:35,160 Speaker 1: go and behold I did. We had started at the 538 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:37,920 Speaker 1: Okifinoki Swamp and went down to the Gulf of Mexico. 539 00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:41,360 Speaker 1: So off we go. So I'm gone for the next 540 00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:43,680 Speaker 1: three weeks or more because at the end of the 541 00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:46,800 Speaker 1: canoe trip we stayed at a motel owned by an 542 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:49,760 Speaker 1: Awaki and Carabelle or Is either owned by an Awakey 543 00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:54,680 Speaker 1: Lewis Petter robert Is referring to Carrabelle, Florida. This was 544 00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:57,040 Speaker 1: the beginning of what would become a second campus for 545 00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:00,040 Speaker 1: an Awaki. At the time, it was no more in 546 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:03,040 Speaker 1: a motel on the Gulf of Mexico in the Panhandle 547 00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:06,880 Speaker 1: region of Florida. Robert says it was during his time 548 00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:09,319 Speaker 1: on this canoe trip that he first started to think 549 00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:12,200 Speaker 1: something wasn't right with Petter and his relationship with some 550 00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:16,239 Speaker 1: of the boys. I had an inkling of that down 551 00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:20,000 Speaker 1: at Carabelle. I thought that some of the behavior of 552 00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:24,279 Speaker 1: Louis Petter was probably inappropriate to its touching. I mean, 553 00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:25,920 Speaker 1: it's one thing to, you know, give a kind of 554 00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:28,640 Speaker 1: fatherly hug. It's another thing to put your hands on 555 00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:33,440 Speaker 1: people a little bit too much. Roger Wren, when we 556 00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:36,280 Speaker 1: first heard at the beginning of this episode, also worked 557 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:39,600 Speaker 1: with Robert at Anawaki. At this time, they both began 558 00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:43,000 Speaker 1: to sense that something was off. Bob was hired about 559 00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:48,160 Speaker 1: seven months after I had arrived, maybe six, and he 560 00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:52,120 Speaker 1: and I became immediate friends. He's really a fine human being, 561 00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:54,480 Speaker 1: and Bob and I saw all right, I and we 562 00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:57,319 Speaker 1: started talking and saying, what you think is going on? 563 00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:01,960 Speaker 1: And then we started having some strong suspicions that things 564 00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:05,200 Speaker 1: were awry and what we thought was going on in 565 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:09,120 Speaker 1: therapy was really not therapy at all. One thing that 566 00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:12,520 Speaker 1: first fed the suspicion was the fact that certain children 567 00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:15,839 Speaker 1: would stay at Lewis Petter's house on the weekend. I 568 00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:18,680 Speaker 1: didn't like it that the kids would go to his house. 569 00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:21,240 Speaker 1: A specific kid would go to his house and spend 570 00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:24,840 Speaker 1: a weekend or maybe a week with him. I questioned 571 00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:27,279 Speaker 1: several staffmanbers, like, what's that's all about, And well, he 572 00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:30,480 Speaker 1: gives them special therapy on the weekends. There was one 573 00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:33,880 Speaker 1: fellow there I thought was very ethical, very competent with 574 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:37,319 Speaker 1: the kids, and he really ran the day to day 575 00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:40,680 Speaker 1: program there and he was just about as fine as 576 00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:42,880 Speaker 1: he could be. And I asked him about it, and 577 00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:45,720 Speaker 1: he said, he said, I think he does individual therapy 578 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:50,400 Speaker 1: with him. The counselor Roger is referring to is Brett Baxley, 579 00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:54,000 Speaker 1: or as he was known on campus, Mr b. Everyone 580 00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:57,120 Speaker 1: I've interviewed says that Baxley was a stand up guy 581 00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:01,160 Speaker 1: who really cared about the kids and teaching them. Baxley's 582 00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:03,640 Speaker 1: history with Petter went back to the beginning of Anna Waki. 583 00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:08,000 Speaker 1: He even helped with the original land acquisition. What Baxley 584 00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:10,319 Speaker 1: and Petter's relationship was like is still a bit of 585 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:14,040 Speaker 1: a mystery. What we do know is that, for whatever reason, 586 00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:19,000 Speaker 1: Baxley never questioned Petter's actions. Roger Wren and Robert Agostino 587 00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:22,759 Speaker 1: co chaperoned the canoe trip down the Swanee River. It 588 00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:26,000 Speaker 1: was at the destination in Caribelle, Florida that their suspicion 589 00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:29,839 Speaker 1: of abuse came to a head. Bob Camp and I'd 590 00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:31,839 Speaker 1: used his name, but he was down there and he 591 00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:36,000 Speaker 1: was There was a relationship between Louis Petter and Bob Camp, 592 00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:39,360 Speaker 1: which I thought was a little off, that something was 593 00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:45,000 Speaker 1: wrong again, the touching, Bob Camp's demeanor. At one point, 594 00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:48,040 Speaker 1: Roger rental or Bob Camp and Louis Petter and bed together. 595 00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:52,600 Speaker 1: Roger Wren initially saw this incident with Petter. He quickly 596 00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:56,160 Speaker 1: grabbed Bob Agostino to confirm what his own eyes had seen. 597 00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:59,680 Speaker 1: They were lying down together in the same bed, even 598 00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:03,440 Speaker 1: though was plenty of beds around. Kind of start wondering 599 00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:06,080 Speaker 1: what the heck was going on. But that was the 600 00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:09,200 Speaker 1: first inkling, and it happened early on, I must say, 601 00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:11,160 Speaker 1: but it took me a while to really figure out 602 00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:16,399 Speaker 1: exactly what was going on. Roger Wren remembers this incident firsthand. 603 00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:19,839 Speaker 1: Bob and I found him in the morning in bed 604 00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:22,360 Speaker 1: with one of the kids, and I don't want to 605 00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:24,680 Speaker 1: get a graphic, but it was. It was pretty rough, 606 00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:27,320 Speaker 1: and that's when Bob and I sort of said, oh, 607 00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:31,400 Speaker 1: then we knew there was no question. I've absolutely had 608 00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:34,600 Speaker 1: nightmares about it for several years. If I think about 609 00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:37,000 Speaker 1: it now, I get the e B gbs. It's just 610 00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:41,960 Speaker 1: not a pleasant thing. The day in which that occurred, 611 00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:45,040 Speaker 1: I just went per sirk. I mean, I was not myself, 612 00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:47,960 Speaker 1: and I'm usually fairly well controlled, but I was so emotional. 613 00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:50,399 Speaker 1: I couldn't stop Bob too. Bob and I were both mad, 614 00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:55,080 Speaker 1: and he just flat denied it, kept denying it and said, 615 00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:57,960 Speaker 1: that's not what you saw, and that's when we sort 616 00:37:58,000 --> 00:37:59,719 Speaker 1: of agonized. I said, I'm going to get out of 617 00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:02,120 Speaker 1: here it. Bob and I decided how are we going 618 00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:04,960 Speaker 1: to protect these children? Because they were thirteen year old 619 00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:07,600 Speaker 1: kids and there were something that were even eleven, and 620 00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:11,520 Speaker 1: I thought, I just I can't leave them here. After that, 621 00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:14,239 Speaker 1: I was trying to ask Bob. Bob was asking me 622 00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:16,600 Speaker 1: what should we do? Should we quit or should we 623 00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:18,680 Speaker 1: stay here? And trying to help the kids. What's what's 624 00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:22,920 Speaker 1: our role? Da Gastino and Wrin both decided to stay 625 00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:26,080 Speaker 1: on at in Awaki for the time being. They needed 626 00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:30,920 Speaker 1: to find out what else was going on. When I 627 00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:32,520 Speaker 1: got back there, I had a lot of work to 628 00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:34,640 Speaker 1: do on the way he's setting up to school and 629 00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:36,759 Speaker 1: all that sort of stuff, and so, you know, things 630 00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:39,480 Speaker 1: went on maybe a month or so. I got to 631 00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:42,200 Speaker 1: school going mostly I was with the group of the 632 00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:45,120 Speaker 1: school back and forth. Then I started to notice that 633 00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:47,920 Speaker 1: Louis Petter had this group of boys around him. It's 634 00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:50,839 Speaker 1: the same group. I said to one of them, why 635 00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:52,960 Speaker 1: are you what was with Dr? How to call him 636 00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:55,000 Speaker 1: Dr petti because that's what he wanted to be called, 637 00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:58,200 Speaker 1: you know. He said, no, PhD. He said, well, we 638 00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:01,520 Speaker 1: live with Dr Pettick. I said what he said, Yeah, 639 00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:03,840 Speaker 1: three or four of them we lived at his house 640 00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:07,080 Speaker 1: with him. I said, who lived with his house with him? 641 00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:09,840 Speaker 1: Is this just temporarily or been there for a long time? 642 00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:12,080 Speaker 1: And at least two of them said no, they've been 643 00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:15,320 Speaker 1: there for quite a while. They literally for quite a while. Well, 644 00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:18,600 Speaker 1: next time there, I started to watch every time he 645 00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:21,319 Speaker 1: came on campus. I kept my eyeball on Petter, and 646 00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:23,560 Speaker 1: I talked to Roger and Wren, who also had a 647 00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:27,200 Speaker 1: groups assigned to him besides being a psychologist and my 648 00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:31,000 Speaker 1: group and Rodgers group were off bounds. He couldn't go 649 00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:34,000 Speaker 1: near him. I wouldn't let him near my group. It's 650 00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:37,080 Speaker 1: worth noting here that Petter was an amputee from childhood 651 00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:40,560 Speaker 1: with a wooden leg where his limb once was. There 652 00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:44,560 Speaker 1: was one incident where my group was assigned a new kid, tall, 653 00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:48,560 Speaker 1: good looking fella, kind of muscular. And I can remember 654 00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:53,080 Speaker 1: this incident really well. There was a gang shower. Each 655 00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:54,920 Speaker 1: group would going in to have a gang shower, and 656 00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:57,680 Speaker 1: because Louis was prone to, let's say, walk into the 657 00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:02,160 Speaker 1: gang shower, supervised things. My groups in the gang shower, 658 00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:05,279 Speaker 1: and I know Louie is zeroing in on this new kid. 659 00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:10,239 Speaker 1: And Louis was about to go into the shower and 660 00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:12,799 Speaker 1: I said, Dr Petter, I don't think you should go 661 00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:15,799 Speaker 1: in there. He said, oh not. I said, it's my 662 00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:18,920 Speaker 1: group in there. And remember I told you before my 663 00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:22,080 Speaker 1: group is under my protection. You're not going in there. 664 00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:24,080 Speaker 1: And I know what you're going in there for. And 665 00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:26,040 Speaker 1: I said, Louis, I'm gonna tell you something. You go 666 00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:29,680 Speaker 1: in there and you touch that kid and you try 667 00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:32,160 Speaker 1: to abuse that kid, you know your wooden leg, I'm 668 00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:33,960 Speaker 1: gonna saw her off and throw it in the lake. 669 00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:41,280 Speaker 1: While Rinnandagostino knew that Petter was having inappropriate relations with students. 670 00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:44,239 Speaker 1: There were other counselors they were afraid may also be 671 00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:47,840 Speaker 1: taking advantage of the children. Look, some of the counselors 672 00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:49,960 Speaker 1: out there were bringing Roger, of course was good. There 673 00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:53,000 Speaker 1: was another counselor who I thought was really top flight, 674 00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:55,719 Speaker 1: and I think he was a homosexual, but I know 675 00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:59,880 Speaker 1: he never touched the kids. I still know what Petter 676 00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:03,200 Speaker 1: had on Baxley, and why Baxley, who was a decent 677 00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:06,759 Speaker 1: human being in every other way, would have cooperated with 678 00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:09,680 Speaker 1: the Petter what he was doing. I just don't understand it. 679 00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:15,240 Speaker 1: Never could. There was no indication that actually ever abused anyway. 680 00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:19,080 Speaker 1: And then there was Sam. There's a couple of other 681 00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:23,160 Speaker 1: ones out there who were just bad news. Sam was 682 00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:27,520 Speaker 1: the worst, Sam Singleton. Sam Singleton was a counselor and 683 00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:30,560 Speaker 1: a serial abuser of the kids. And I brought that 684 00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:33,640 Speaker 1: up with loud Petter, and of course his reaction was, well, 685 00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:35,520 Speaker 1: I'll talk to him, don't worry about it. Don't worry 686 00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:38,279 Speaker 1: about it. I'm an old social worker. I could tell 687 00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:42,560 Speaker 1: what's going on. And I eventually confronted Sam Singleton about 688 00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:46,520 Speaker 1: this in fact, I kicked him off the campus. I 689 00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:49,400 Speaker 1: had no authority, but I kicked him off campus anyway, 690 00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:51,759 Speaker 1: and Louis, of course brought her back. A couple of 691 00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:53,920 Speaker 1: weeks later. To three weeks later, he brought her back. 692 00:41:54,760 --> 00:42:00,200 Speaker 1: Sam was after this kid might Apparently Sam just I'd 693 00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:03,000 Speaker 1: have the hots for him, and I told Sam at 694 00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:05,839 Speaker 1: one point that if he touched Mike, I would break 695 00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:10,080 Speaker 1: his neck. He just walked away. He knew I was serious. 696 00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:15,560 Speaker 1: Shortly after this time, Roger Wren had reached his breaking point. 697 00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:20,720 Speaker 1: He recalls his resignation with the petter. After a while, 698 00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:22,440 Speaker 1: it became apparent that he and I were going to 699 00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:25,680 Speaker 1: be completely persona non grata. We were not going to 700 00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:28,680 Speaker 1: be allowed to do anything, and we had no power. 701 00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:31,800 Speaker 1: I said, I can't tolerate this, and he said goodbye. 702 00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:35,719 Speaker 1: After that, I got out of there. Roger was not 703 00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:39,120 Speaker 1: the only one who had had enough. Dagostino remembers the 704 00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:42,399 Speaker 1: mood at an Awaki at the time. Miss Ogiltree, who 705 00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:45,680 Speaker 1: was then the social worker. She was a delightful woman 706 00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:48,480 Speaker 1: and she was a good, good social worker, a good person. 707 00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:51,279 Speaker 1: When she figured out that that wasn't one of the 708 00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:53,920 Speaker 1: bad guys, she said to me soon she finds a 709 00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:57,640 Speaker 1: new job. She's getting out of there. Miss Ogiltree had left, 710 00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:02,960 Speaker 1: she had fled. Roger Wren had quit. So my allies 711 00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:06,799 Speaker 1: were gone, and Baxley would do nothing. The head counselor 712 00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:10,680 Speaker 1: I asked him, I said, why why are you letting 713 00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:13,359 Speaker 1: this happen? Why are you letting this happen? Why are 714 00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:18,000 Speaker 1: you covering up for Louis Petter? And he he had 715 00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:20,640 Speaker 1: no answer to that question. Well, I said, why are 716 00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:23,360 Speaker 1: you allowing Louis to do this stuff? Why are you 717 00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:26,919 Speaker 1: allowing this? This could be a good place, this could 718 00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:31,840 Speaker 1: be a wonderful place, but it's not because of what 719 00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:36,440 Speaker 1: louis doing. And you can stop him, you can keep away. 720 00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:40,200 Speaker 1: Robert says his relationship with Petter remained tense during his 721 00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:43,879 Speaker 1: last days at Ain't AWAKEI l after I threatened to 722 00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:47,120 Speaker 1: cut his leg off. Let's say our relationsister came around 723 00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:51,440 Speaker 1: the frosty and interesting enough. Of course, he didn't fire 724 00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:56,360 Speaker 1: me because he really thought he was untouchable. Eventually Robert 725 00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:59,200 Speaker 1: left the camp as well. He and Roger knew that 726 00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:01,560 Speaker 1: something had to be done about what they had witnessed. 727 00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:05,200 Speaker 1: It in a week and that's when we started making 728 00:44:05,239 --> 00:44:08,759 Speaker 1: as much effort as we could. And we were young, 729 00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:12,880 Speaker 1: remember with twenty five year old kids, and we're scared, 730 00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:17,600 Speaker 1: and the whole process was was frightening from a personal 731 00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:19,640 Speaker 1: point of view. Because I'm a graduate student. I don't 732 00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:22,880 Speaker 1: have any power, but we did have enormous amount of 733 00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:27,239 Speaker 1: energy and we tried everything we could. Because I probably 734 00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:31,319 Speaker 1: left unawake, I went to Defects and complained about what 735 00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:35,600 Speaker 1: was going on. We went to the sheriff I believe 736 00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:40,480 Speaker 1: his name was Abercrombie uh and remembering that Louis Petter 737 00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:45,120 Speaker 1: was also a Baptist minister and he had a strong 738 00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:50,439 Speaker 1: standing in the community in Douglasville. We brought eighty kids 739 00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:52,799 Speaker 1: to church every Sunday, to the Baptist church, so it 740 00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:56,239 Speaker 1: was it was a big deal. And nothing happened at 741 00:44:56,239 --> 00:44:59,800 Speaker 1: the sheriff's office. Nothing happened. We went to the States 742 00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:02,799 Speaker 1: our welfare program. They didn't want to hear it. We 743 00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:06,520 Speaker 1: went to the newspaper, to the Atlanta Journal. We went 744 00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:09,160 Speaker 1: to an attorney all by ourselves, and we went in 745 00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:12,200 Speaker 1: and the assays, there's you know, he didn't want any 746 00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:17,320 Speaker 1: part of it. Raynondagastino had made up their minds something 747 00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:20,480 Speaker 1: had to be done about the abuse taking place at Annawaki. 748 00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:25,080 Speaker 1: It seemed everywhere they turned, nobody would listen to their story. 749 00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:30,440 Speaker 1: That is, until a patient would finally come forward next 750 00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:35,120 Speaker 1: time on Camp how and Awake. I just thought that 751 00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:38,160 Speaker 1: people would be really upset about this. I thought people 752 00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:41,919 Speaker 1: would rise up and do something about it. Nothing was done. 753 00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:45,920 Speaker 1: We were involved in trying to find some way to 754 00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:50,440 Speaker 1: extricate him from the camp. You cannot imagine knowing something 755 00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:55,120 Speaker 1: that is horrendous in telling people, in fact screaming and 756 00:45:55,239 --> 00:46:00,080 Speaker 1: nobody listening. It's very meticulous about maintaining relationships with the 757 00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:04,120 Speaker 1: people who were in positions of power. To Department of 758 00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:10,120 Speaker 1: Family and Children's Services actually placed boys in that camp 759 00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:13,719 Speaker 1: even though they knew about what he did in Savannah. 760 00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:16,520 Speaker 1: And finally, I think they were embarrassed at the point 761 00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:19,880 Speaker 1: where they had to hold the hearing. The defense lawyers 762 00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:26,120 Speaker 1: for Annawaki for the accused used information about their pathologies 763 00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:35,480 Speaker 1: to discredit them, to question their credibility, and to humiliate them. 764 00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:39,080 Speaker 1: In last week's episode, you heard from Dale Strickland, one 765 00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:42,400 Speaker 1: of the very first attendees of an Awake. We were 766 00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:46,280 Speaker 1: recently informed that Dale passed away shortly after his interview 767 00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:49,600 Speaker 1: before the podcast was able to come out. We would 768 00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:52,560 Speaker 1: like to dedicate this episode to Dale and his memory 769 00:46:53,040 --> 00:46:58,200 Speaker 1: and thank him for his involvement in the podcast. Camp 770 00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:01,799 Speaker 1: hell Anawaki was created and hosted by Josh Thane, with 771 00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:06,360 Speaker 1: producer Miranda Hawkins and executive producers Alex Williams and Matt Frederick. 772 00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:09,960 Speaker 1: The soundtrack was written and performed by Josh Thane and 773 00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:13,840 Speaker 1: Adrian Barry. This episode featured the voices of Matt Frederick 774 00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:17,680 Speaker 1: and Ben Bolan. Archival footage provided by ws B and 775 00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:21,879 Speaker 1: CBS News. Find us on Instagram at camp hell Pod. 776 00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:25,640 Speaker 1: That's c A M p h E L l p 777 00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:29,320 Speaker 1: O D educate yourself about the issue of child abuse 778 00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:31,760 Speaker 1: and things that you should look for at the Darkness 779 00:47:31,800 --> 00:47:35,279 Speaker 1: to Light website D two ll dot org. That's d 780 00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:40,200 Speaker 1: the number two l dot org. Camp hell ana Waki 781 00:47:40,440 --> 00:47:43,200 Speaker 1: is a production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts 782 00:47:43,239 --> 00:47:45,759 Speaker 1: from my heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, 783 00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:49,000 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.