1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,320 Speaker 1: Hi everyone, I'm Katie Curic, and this is next question. 2 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:07,640 Speaker 1: I love when the people we've gotten to know over 3 00:00:07,680 --> 00:00:10,240 Speaker 1: the years on the big and small screen come out 4 00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:13,240 Speaker 1: with a memoir. And I'm not just saying that because 5 00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:16,400 Speaker 1: I did the same last year. Going There now available 6 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:20,240 Speaker 1: in paperback. No, I'm talking about people we feel like 7 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:24,119 Speaker 1: we know but don't really know, you know, like the 8 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 1: actor and activist Gina Davis. Gina is someone I have 9 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:31,160 Speaker 1: interviewed over the years and admired, both in her diverse 10 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:35,200 Speaker 1: movie roles and for the incredible activists and leadership she's 11 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:39,800 Speaker 1: taken on fighting for gender equity in Hollywood. But Gina 12 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:42,920 Speaker 1: is one of those clever stars that hasn't revealed all 13 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:48,519 Speaker 1: that much of herself until now. I never have been 14 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:52,160 Speaker 1: in this position of having written something and people gonna 15 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 1: read about me and you know, what did I say 16 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 1: touch or something. Let's talk about the title of Dying 17 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 1: of Politeness, because you tell a story in the book 18 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:06,640 Speaker 1: which kind of in a weird way, set you out 19 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 1: on this path of kind of I guess squashing your 20 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:13,920 Speaker 1: emotions in some ways. Tell that story. You were just 21 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 1: what three years old and you were in church? Oh yeah, No, 22 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:20,919 Speaker 1: I was a baby. Um and I don't personally remember, 23 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:24,520 Speaker 1: but I was told about it relentlessly. I was sending 24 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 1: my mom's lap in church, and I was a baby 25 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 1: and obviously able to sit up at this point, and 26 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:33,319 Speaker 1: I was moving around, of course like babies. Well, and 27 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:36,320 Speaker 1: somehow orther, I lurched forward and I clocked my head 28 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 1: on the pew in front, and it made a huge crack, 29 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:43,520 Speaker 1: and minister stopped speaking and everybody paused to see, you know, 30 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:46,920 Speaker 1: his bloody murder going to be screamed now. And uh, 31 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 1: and my mom said she loved to tell the story. 32 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 1: My mom said she she clushed me and said, and 33 00:01:55,680 --> 00:02:02,559 Speaker 1: she didn't say that was the proudest things you could 34 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:05,040 Speaker 1: think of, and love to be tell them about that. 35 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:07,920 Speaker 1: And uh, it was only late and I heard it 36 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:11,640 Speaker 1: so many times, But only there you realized is that 37 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:15,840 Speaker 1: a good thing? I mean, you know, I was able 38 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:21,520 Speaker 1: to know that I had to not show my feelings, 39 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 1: my real feelings, at a very very early age. You 40 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 1: know that, don't don't be troubled to anybody. Don't make 41 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:33,480 Speaker 1: it noise. You were basically being praised for repressing your emotions, 42 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:36,400 Speaker 1: even if that meant pain. And I'm wondering how that 43 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 1: manifested itself in your life from that moment on. In 44 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:44,919 Speaker 1: other words, you know, kids should be seen and not heard, 45 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 1: and especially for girls to be expressive or to talk 46 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:54,399 Speaker 1: openly about things. Was that really discouraged in your home 47 00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:58,400 Speaker 1: growing up? Well, I'll tell you it wasn't about being 48 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:05,680 Speaker 1: a girl, because my father actually treated me unusually I 49 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:08,840 Speaker 1: think maybe for the time, and and uh beautifully. You know, 50 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:13,200 Speaker 1: he he encouraged my confidence from the very beginning. And 51 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:14,839 Speaker 1: you know, if he was going to shingle the roof, 52 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 1: I was too. And you described your childhood as sort 53 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:20,960 Speaker 1: of like a little house on the prairie. Yes, without 54 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:26,360 Speaker 1: the pinafores or the prairie, but but it was, you know, 55 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:29,480 Speaker 1: it was like a throwback to another another century. We 56 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:33,840 Speaker 1: always had kerosene lanterns ready, for example. But but it 57 00:03:33,919 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 1: wasn't about being a girl. It was about being um 58 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:41,880 Speaker 1: self effacing. I don't need anything, I don't want anything, 59 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 1: to be incredibly incredibly polite, not to have anyone have 60 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:50,720 Speaker 1: to put anything out for you. And so it was 61 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:53,360 Speaker 1: to the point where if someone was trying to hand 62 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:56,400 Speaker 1: me a candy, it was no trouble. They already were 63 00:03:56,640 --> 00:03:59,120 Speaker 1: headed in their hand. I had to say no, no, no, 64 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 1: thank you, I'm not um because it was not polite 65 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 1: to actually want something or need something. So that was 66 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 1: the message, so to not express your needs basically um 67 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 1: and and I guess I got mixed up with the 68 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 1: church story. It was when you were three years old 69 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 1: that you decided, in fact, in fact announced you were 70 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:23,359 Speaker 1: going to be an actress. Yes, I announced to my 71 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 1: parents that that was going to be my job. I 72 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 1: don't even know how I knew people had jobs and 73 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 1: three years old or and I certainly hadn't been to 74 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 1: the movies unless they took us to some animated Disney 75 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 1: movie or something. But that's what I said, I'm going 76 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 1: to be. I must have seen some you know, I 77 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:44,600 Speaker 1: know I watched television. U photos of me watching watching television. 78 00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:48,720 Speaker 1: But I somehow perceived that people were pretending to do 79 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 1: things and I wanted to do that. And and obviously 80 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:55,840 Speaker 1: you had to have a lot of confidence, and that 81 00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 1: expressed your needs. So your parents did give you conf 82 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:04,159 Speaker 1: it ends. So what what's the difference of expressing your 83 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 1: wants versus expressing your ambition? Well, you know, something you 84 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:16,080 Speaker 1: just said made me think, uh uh, maybe some wow. 85 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:21,040 Speaker 1: I had figured out or unconsciously realized that if I 86 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:25,280 Speaker 1: was a character, the character wouldn't have to repress her feelings. 87 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:30,680 Speaker 1: I can't. We need psychologists it up. But uh, but 88 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 1: the thing is, I knew I wanted to be on film. 89 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:39,280 Speaker 1: I didn't want to be in theater like I didn't. 90 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 1: There was nothing about me the craved people looking at me. 91 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:48,760 Speaker 1: I'm sure that I craved approval, you know, as big, 92 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 1: big as approval as I could possibly get. But um, 93 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 1: I think it was the opportunity to be to try 94 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:01,159 Speaker 1: on different, for alms, to be somebody else, to be 95 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:04,719 Speaker 1: somebody who's not quiet and shy. And you know your 96 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:10,040 Speaker 1: childhood was really idyllic. But you do write about a neighbor, Mr. Teller, 97 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:15,839 Speaker 1: who who molested you, basically Gina, which made me think, gosh, 98 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:22,039 Speaker 1: it's just so commonplace, um for this to happen. And 99 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:27,120 Speaker 1: it was a really interesting story because he went from 100 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:31,120 Speaker 1: sort of hugging you to touching you and appropriately to 101 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:35,320 Speaker 1: the point you kind of ex basically showed your mom 102 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:40,320 Speaker 1: what he was doing. Um And and I'm curious to 103 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 1: know sort of for you to explain what her reaction 104 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:48,680 Speaker 1: was to that, right, right, Well, The thing is, I 105 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:53,640 Speaker 1: was ten, and I didn't know I've never heard the 106 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:57,799 Speaker 1: term privates. I didn't even know there was anything between 107 00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:01,839 Speaker 1: my legs that meant a thing that was significant. And 108 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:05,880 Speaker 1: so when he started touching me there, I didn't think 109 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:08,160 Speaker 1: anything about I mean, I didn't think there was This 110 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 1: is terribly wrong. This shouldn't be happening. I know, you know, 111 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:15,440 Speaker 1: nobody should be touching that area. And so when I 112 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:18,080 Speaker 1: told my mom about it, I just showed her on 113 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 1: her what he was doing to me. She went through 114 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:25,120 Speaker 1: the ceiling and sailed down the middle of the road 115 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 1: to this house. I came out to the sidewalk and 116 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:32,800 Speaker 1: watched her disappear into his h his house, and then 117 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:37,720 Speaker 1: when she came back, she said, um, you're never to 118 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:40,680 Speaker 1: bring the paper inside his house again. You leave it 119 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 1: down at the bottom of the stairs. Okay, But but 120 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:51,560 Speaker 1: I didn't say, because what happened was not your fault 121 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 1: or or whatever. Um, So then I knew there's there 122 00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:59,480 Speaker 1: are horrible secrets in the world that you're just just 123 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 1: kind of stumble on and not know what they are, 124 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 1: and it could be you doing something really wrong, you know. 125 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:09,800 Speaker 1: But god, I just didn't know, And what did you 126 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 1: think about your mom's reaction and what would you have 127 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 1: done if this had happened to your daughter? Well, right, 128 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:21,320 Speaker 1: I mean right, Um, I think my mom had a 129 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 1: great reaction. She uh, you know, she was very angry. 130 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:27,440 Speaker 1: She flew up the streets. She come fronted him, immediately 131 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 1: told him what's what, this is, what's going to happen? 132 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:34,160 Speaker 1: And that always great. Um, you know, I probably wish 133 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:36,600 Speaker 1: that she would have explained to me what happened to 134 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:38,720 Speaker 1: why that was wrong, or what I should do in 135 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:42,679 Speaker 1: the future, or you know, tell me immediately if anybody 136 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:46,720 Speaker 1: touches x Y is he uh and all that. But 137 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:49,440 Speaker 1: but but yeah, I would have got the police involved, 138 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 1: and you know, immediately and uh and what is just 139 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:57,240 Speaker 1: a different time though, I was gonna say, I think 140 00:08:57,240 --> 00:09:02,760 Speaker 1: our our vocabulary and or understand ending of these situations 141 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:08,320 Speaker 1: just they weren't fully formed back then. I remember my 142 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:11,439 Speaker 1: sister walking up the street and some man called her 143 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:14,360 Speaker 1: over to the car and I think she was twelve, 144 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:18,800 Speaker 1: and exposed himself to her. And I think, you know, 145 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 1: I don't think my mom. My mom was really upset 146 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:26,520 Speaker 1: about it. I think I don't think she called the police, 147 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:29,120 Speaker 1: but I think, you know, it was sort of just 148 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:32,679 Speaker 1: like there are a lot of perverts out there, and 149 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 1: people weren't necessarily held to account when they behaved a 150 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:42,440 Speaker 1: certain way as they are now. Yeah, do you remember 151 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:44,920 Speaker 1: if your mom said don't approach a car if they 152 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 1: call you over or anything like that. Oh, yeah she did, 153 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:52,440 Speaker 1: she said, Yeah, I think she did. And don't talk 154 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:58,800 Speaker 1: to strangers and all that stuff. Now we always do 155 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:02,280 Speaker 1: that now, you know, to start from the beginning. Nobody 156 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:04,800 Speaker 1: touch you if you don't want them to, and all 157 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:07,640 Speaker 1: that stuff. So it's it's very different. You grew up 158 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:12,000 Speaker 1: in whereham am I pronouncing it correctly, Massachusetts, and then 159 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:14,920 Speaker 1: after college you decided that you were going to New 160 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:20,520 Speaker 1: York to pursue a modeling career. And and obviously you're 161 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:26,880 Speaker 1: very tall, how taller Eugena six feet? So did you 162 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:31,120 Speaker 1: you really saw modeling as a vehicle to get into 163 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:35,400 Speaker 1: the movie business or to become an actress? Right? Well, yes, 164 00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:41,560 Speaker 1: this was my scheme because I knew this. I was 165 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 1: in I was a theater major, and and most everybody 166 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:47,040 Speaker 1: wanted to do theater, but I knew I wanted to 167 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:50,400 Speaker 1: do films or TV or something like that, be on screen. 168 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:54,360 Speaker 1: But nobody ever I've never asked anybody. Nobody ever said, 169 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 1: you know, if you want to do that, you should 170 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:58,920 Speaker 1: actually go to l A instead. Everybody's going to New York. 171 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:00,640 Speaker 1: So I went with them and and then I'm like, 172 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:04,559 Speaker 1: how am I going to get uh? In movies? But 173 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:07,520 Speaker 1: I planned this actually when I was still in college 174 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:12,200 Speaker 1: that I saw that Christie Brinkley and Lauren Hutton's mother, 175 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:17,440 Speaker 1: you know, supermodels were getting cast in movies, and I thought, Okay, 176 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:21,040 Speaker 1: so the way I'll do this is I will become 177 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:26,199 Speaker 1: a model and then they'll just hire me, because obviously 178 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:28,800 Speaker 1: I thought it's so much easier to become a super 179 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:32,840 Speaker 1: bottle at an actor. So but it actually worked out, 180 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:35,559 Speaker 1: but actually worked out. We'll talk about how he made 181 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:39,440 Speaker 1: the leap right right, and and I never became a 182 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:41,600 Speaker 1: super bottle. By the way, I was only on the 183 00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 1: cover of New Jersey Monthly, so I didn't take off 184 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:49,640 Speaker 1: in that way. But they were casting TUTSI in New York, 185 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:52,640 Speaker 1: shooting in New York, and had the idea, let's call 186 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:56,319 Speaker 1: model agencies to see if they have any models who 187 00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 1: can also act, because it called for the character to 188 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:04,520 Speaker 1: be physically attractive, Let's say uh and uh and so 189 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:07,240 Speaker 1: they said, yeah, yeah, we have one and sent me 190 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:10,600 Speaker 1: for the audition and it was just a you know, 191 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:13,480 Speaker 1: casting assistant with a video camera and some you know 192 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:17,600 Speaker 1: office and uh and they said, where a bathing suit 193 00:12:17,679 --> 00:12:20,440 Speaker 1: under your clothes? Because if your audition, well, they're gonna 194 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:23,040 Speaker 1: want to see your you in a bathing suit, and 195 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:26,200 Speaker 1: because the character called for being in her underwear at 196 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 1: certain points of the movie. So so I went to 197 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:32,160 Speaker 1: the audition, I read for it. She didn't say, let's 198 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:34,880 Speaker 1: see you in your bathing suit. So I just completely 199 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:36,760 Speaker 1: forgot and one of the odds I'm going to get 200 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:39,080 Speaker 1: it cast in a movie with us, and happened as 201 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:41,800 Speaker 1: my first I just said, you know so, So I 202 00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:44,559 Speaker 1: forgot all about it, and I was going to Paris 203 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:49,120 Speaker 1: to do the uh collections the runway shows for the 204 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:50,920 Speaker 1: first time. I was all excited about that. And I 205 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:55,080 Speaker 1: was there and evidently sending Pollock the director saw my 206 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:59,200 Speaker 1: video and said, hey, I like her. Where's her beating suit? 207 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:02,920 Speaker 1: We forgot to get any pictures of her anyway, Well 208 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 1: get her back, No, she's in Europe. Well did they 209 00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:09,199 Speaker 1: have it? Does her agent have any pictures of her 210 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:13,240 Speaker 1: in a bathing suit? And fortunately I had been in 211 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:18,800 Speaker 1: a victorious secret catalog, said hot Dog. They said those 212 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:23,720 Speaker 1: photos over where you know, wind blown air brush, perfectly lit, 213 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:30,360 Speaker 1: you know, instead of standing in a sad midtown office. Yeah. Anyway, 214 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:33,280 Speaker 1: I got the part, which is pretty amazing. I mean, 215 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:37,079 Speaker 1: what was that experience like? Working with with Dustin Hoffman 216 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:41,000 Speaker 1: and Jessica Lang and just that incredible cast and also 217 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:45,280 Speaker 1: m who did who did I love? Also in that 218 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:51,719 Speaker 1: movie who has ms? She's blonde? Terry gar who was 219 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:55,680 Speaker 1: such such a great comedic actress. So I mean, did 220 00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:59,439 Speaker 1: you were you pinching yourself being with all these people? Oh? 221 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:03,720 Speaker 1: I really well, I couldn't believe it, although I sort 222 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:06,360 Speaker 1: of did believe it because it's what I thought was 223 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:11,680 Speaker 1: gonna happen. So it's very it was a very strange time. 224 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:15,440 Speaker 1: But um, and Cindy Pollock and it was incredible director, 225 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:18,760 Speaker 1: you know, for my first job, you know, you couldn't 226 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:21,960 Speaker 1: ask for anything better. I would have done anything, um, 227 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 1: but um, yeah, it was amazing, amazing, amazing, And the 228 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:29,880 Speaker 1: funny thing about it was, you know, it's my first 229 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 1: I've never been on movie. Said I didn't know anything, 230 00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:37,920 Speaker 1: but I was too embarrassed about that to ask anybody 231 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:41,800 Speaker 1: anything about how things go on a movie set. So 232 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:45,280 Speaker 1: I didn't know. I didn't ever ask anything, and people 233 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:49,119 Speaker 1: didn't tell me things either. They didn't volunteer, for example, 234 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:52,680 Speaker 1: that you only come on the days when you're in 235 00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:57,360 Speaker 1: a scene. So I assumed everybody was going to come 236 00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 1: every day all day. So I did it. And then 237 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:03,840 Speaker 1: what would ever said, by the way, you know, you 238 00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 1: don't have to be here? Yeah, nobody ever said anything 239 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:11,880 Speaker 1: about it. Um, every day, I got my chair and 240 00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:14,800 Speaker 1: put it right next to Sydney Pollock and sat next 241 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 1: to him all day. And it never heard of me that, wait, 242 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:21,880 Speaker 1: the other actors are sitting over there, and probably I 243 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:26,440 Speaker 1: shouldn't be bothering the director while we're shooting. But but 244 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:29,160 Speaker 1: he let you sit next to him and watched him work, 245 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 1: which must have been invaluable, invaluable, and he never said 246 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:38,600 Speaker 1: a thing. He called me sunshine, and UM was very 247 00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 1: respectful from the beginning, very respectful. And so you know, 248 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 1: I had this incredible experience that I never would have 249 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:49,320 Speaker 1: if I'd asked a question. Here and there you write 250 00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 1: about the fact that that Dustin Hoffman gave you some 251 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 1: good advice about how to deal with lecherous men on 252 00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 1: the set and what did he tell you? So all 253 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:03,160 Speaker 1: day long he was giving me advice because he was 254 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:06,200 Speaker 1: sure that I was going to have this career and uh, 255 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:11,040 Speaker 1: and so one time he said, now, uh, never sleep 256 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 1: with your co star. By the way, you should never 257 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:15,440 Speaker 1: do that. It's just my message things up, don't do it. 258 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 1: So here's what you say. If your co star propositions you, 259 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 1: you say, oh, thank you, You're very attractive. I would 260 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:27,520 Speaker 1: love to, but I don't want to ruin the sexual 261 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:31,320 Speaker 1: tension between us. And uh, I was like, okay, So 262 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 1: I squirrel that away and he used it later with 263 00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:39,720 Speaker 1: Jack Nicholson. What happened Jack Nicholson. It's too long to 264 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 1: explain why this happened. But Jack Nicholson called me, um 265 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:49,360 Speaker 1: and uh after putsy and said, and you know I 266 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:53,000 Speaker 1: had got this message called back Jack Nicholson, Oh my god, incredible. 267 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 1: So Mr Nicholson, hello, this is you know, Davis's the 268 00:16:55,960 --> 00:17:01,160 Speaker 1: model and uh is it a gena? Is it gonna happen? 269 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:06,240 Speaker 1: And I, oh my god, but I instantly knew, well, 270 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:07,920 Speaker 1: first of all, I should have you know, what is 271 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:10,160 Speaker 1: it going to be about? It's gonna be about that. 272 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:14,920 Speaker 1: But I said, I know what to say. Oh my god, 273 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:17,320 Speaker 1: for once in my life, I know exactly what to say. 274 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:22,359 Speaker 1: And I said, well, Mr Nicholson, jack Um, I have 275 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:24,960 Speaker 1: a feeling and we are gonna be working together someday, 276 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:28,840 Speaker 1: and I would hate to have ruined the sexual tension 277 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:33,760 Speaker 1: between us. What did he say? He said, Oh, man, 278 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:37,760 Speaker 1: who told you to say that? Because he's just someone 279 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:40,320 Speaker 1: knew that someone had told me to say that. But 280 00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:42,639 Speaker 1: it got me out of the out of the situation. 281 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 1: When we come back, Delma, Louise and a life changing 282 00:17:48,640 --> 00:18:04,080 Speaker 1: friendship with Susan Surrandon. You obviously have been in some 283 00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:07,439 Speaker 1: iconic films. A League of their Own is a close second, 284 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:10,520 Speaker 1: but the most iconic one is obviously Thelm and Louise. 285 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:14,920 Speaker 1: Tell me a little bit about that experience and that 286 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:18,760 Speaker 1: moment in time, Gina, because I really see your life 287 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:23,879 Speaker 1: and career juxtaposed against sort of the feminist movement writ large. 288 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:28,720 Speaker 1: And I'm curious why that movie made such a huge 289 00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:33,919 Speaker 1: impression on the national psyche if you will, well, you 290 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:37,159 Speaker 1: know the reaction when it came up Eastern None of 291 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:39,920 Speaker 1: us predicted h that it was even going to be 292 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:42,320 Speaker 1: seen or successful. You know, it seems like a small 293 00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:45,760 Speaker 1: budget movie and maybe people won't like the ending or something. 294 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:48,960 Speaker 1: But it exploded on the scene, you know, a cover 295 00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:53,640 Speaker 1: of Time magazine almost instantly, and and all that, and uh, 296 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:56,800 Speaker 1: and the heading was on the title on the cover 297 00:18:56,840 --> 00:18:59,760 Speaker 1: of the magazine was why Thelma and Louise strikes and 298 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:04,280 Speaker 1: herv um, not why people like it or And there 299 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 1: were two negative essays in that issue about how this 300 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:12,760 Speaker 1: was a horrible development because we're showing that women have 301 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:16,639 Speaker 1: to resort to violence and whatever. The big thing that 302 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:20,400 Speaker 1: I noticed was the difference in if people recognized me 303 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:23,359 Speaker 1: once the movie came out, because I was used to 304 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:25,480 Speaker 1: people say, oh, I like the Flyer, I like beetles 305 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:28,520 Speaker 1: or whatever, and being you know, very nice, and that's 306 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 1: all they needed was to tell me that. And and 307 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:34,760 Speaker 1: suddenly people were saying, Oh my god, I have to 308 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:38,000 Speaker 1: tell you what this movie meant to me. This changed 309 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 1: my life. This is how many times I saw it, 310 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:42,280 Speaker 1: this is who I saw it with, And you know, 311 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 1: they really wanted to share with me how important experience was. 312 00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 1: And I realized that in a profound way, that we 313 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:54,280 Speaker 1: give women so few opportunities to come out of a 314 00:19:54,359 --> 00:20:00,960 Speaker 1: movie feeling inspired and empowered by the female characters. Where 315 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:05,000 Speaker 1: are you going? We've been seeing you all over It's like, 316 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:07,919 Speaker 1: why don't you take off those shades? I want to 317 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:14,920 Speaker 1: see your eyes. Yeah, we think you have really bad manners. 318 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:18,760 Speaker 1: Where did you get off behaen like that with women 319 00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 1: you didn't even know? Huh? How do you feel somebody 320 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:31,359 Speaker 1: that's your mother or your sister or your wife? Huh 321 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:34,440 Speaker 1: what are you talking about? You know? Good? Damn well 322 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:37,639 Speaker 1: when I'm topping bath, I mean, really, that business with 323 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:41,000 Speaker 1: your tongue, what is that? That is disgusting? Oh my god? 324 00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:44,639 Speaker 1: That But it really did stricken earth. There was definitely 325 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:47,280 Speaker 1: a segment of the population who thought it was a 326 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:53,359 Speaker 1: very bad thing. Um and uh. Actually, Entertainment Weekly made 327 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:55,840 Speaker 1: a chart. They thought that was funny, you know that 328 00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:58,199 Speaker 1: people were saying it's so violent, And they made a 329 00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:02,359 Speaker 1: chart comparing Fema Louise and lethal weapons. So just just 330 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:05,640 Speaker 1: just just just looking to too violent movies and compare 331 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:10,359 Speaker 1: it was like the fem Louise number bill is fire 332 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:15,359 Speaker 1: or something like seven. Uh. For they said, well, it's 333 00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 1: approximately fifty, but you can't really single out machine gun bullets. 334 00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:24,240 Speaker 1: It's successfully and and I mean it was just the 335 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:32,640 Speaker 1: carnage deaths three including themselves, you know, so anyway, it's 336 00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:35,439 Speaker 1: just you know, I think that it did have these 337 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:40,880 Speaker 1: incredibly strong female leads, and you and Susan Surranton and 338 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:47,320 Speaker 1: talk about women with eight finding themselves and claiming agency, right, 339 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:52,359 Speaker 1: And I think it was such a powerful message for 340 00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:56,640 Speaker 1: for women everywhere that you were taking control of your 341 00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:02,159 Speaker 1: your destiny basically to the very end um. And you 342 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:07,240 Speaker 1: also became lifelong friends with Susan Sarandon, who was sort 343 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:13,320 Speaker 1: of the total antithesis of dying of politeness. And what 344 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:16,800 Speaker 1: did you learn from watching Susan and the way she 345 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 1: moved in the world that you kind of absorbed and 346 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:26,400 Speaker 1: took with Eugena. Yeah, you know, I think she affected 347 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:29,680 Speaker 1: my life. It changed my life more than anyone else has. 348 00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:32,679 Speaker 1: And uh, and it was it was watching her the 349 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 1: way she moved through the world. I mean it was 350 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:39,600 Speaker 1: from you know, a few minutes into having met her. Uh, 351 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:42,359 Speaker 1: I knew what she was. I saw what she was like, 352 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:44,639 Speaker 1: and I was like, how have I never been exposed 353 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:49,040 Speaker 1: to a woman who who lives like this, who doesn't 354 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:52,600 Speaker 1: start everything she says with I don't know what you'll think, 355 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:54,639 Speaker 1: This is probably a bad idea, but what would you 356 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:56,119 Speaker 1: think if, I mean, if you don't like, if we 357 00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:58,800 Speaker 1: don't have to you know, it's the only way. It 358 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:01,880 Speaker 1: was the only way I exist. It was like that. 359 00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:05,879 Speaker 1: And uh, we were going through the script right the 360 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:09,400 Speaker 1: first time I met her with Ridley Scott, and I 361 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:12,720 Speaker 1: swear it was like on page one that she said, Um, 362 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:14,639 Speaker 1: you know my first line here, I think we should 363 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:18,120 Speaker 1: just cut it. And I was like, well, but that's 364 00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:21,320 Speaker 1: how we're starting. Uh. And I looked at Ridley and 365 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 1: he was like, yeah, sure, I not No, we don't 366 00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:28,439 Speaker 1: need that. And uh it sounds crazy, but you know, 367 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:32,520 Speaker 1: I could never experienced a woman who talks like that 368 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:38,880 Speaker 1: North scene a reaction like Ridley's where he doesn't I think, Hey, 369 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:43,159 Speaker 1: how dare you just say things? Did you find that 370 00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:47,439 Speaker 1: empowering for yourself when it came to your your work 371 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:50,679 Speaker 1: and your future roles, that you could use your voice 372 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:54,679 Speaker 1: and you didn't have to be so polite. Yeah, it 373 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:59,200 Speaker 1: really really impacted my life tremendously. Now I can't say 374 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:05,640 Speaker 1: I just jumped to that is I'm gonna be that um, 375 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:10,600 Speaker 1: but I feel like the goal of my life became 376 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:17,679 Speaker 1: to be able to react to something or behave in 377 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:20,760 Speaker 1: the way I really wanted to, in the way I 378 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:26,480 Speaker 1: really felt, instead of massaging everything into what will the 379 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:28,399 Speaker 1: other person think? Or can I get away with this? 380 00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:33,040 Speaker 1: Or how can I twist this around to be unobjectionable? 381 00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:38,359 Speaker 1: You know. So that's that's like became my life school, 382 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:42,400 Speaker 1: and that's what I'm I'm still working on getting much 383 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:48,240 Speaker 1: much better thanks to thanks to that early education. After 384 00:24:48,280 --> 00:25:01,240 Speaker 1: the break, how Gina took control of her career after forty. 385 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:05,920 Speaker 1: I have to ask you about when your career stalled, 386 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:08,800 Speaker 1: and it was sort of you were forty years old, 387 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:12,320 Speaker 1: and gosh, I think it would be so hard to 388 00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:15,959 Speaker 1: be an actor Gina and just worry all the time 389 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:18,480 Speaker 1: and are you in or you out? Are you up? 390 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:22,440 Speaker 1: Are you down? What's next? You know what's in the future. 391 00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:26,840 Speaker 1: And I'm curious if that period of your life was 392 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:34,440 Speaker 1: difficult to to process and also to deal with. Right Well, yes, 393 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:38,119 Speaker 1: I mean I had heard about this phenomenon that supposedly 394 00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:41,679 Speaker 1: happened that when you get to forty for women, the 395 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:45,560 Speaker 1: jobs start to fall away. But first of all, I thought, 396 00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:47,920 Speaker 1: Meryl Streep, Jessica Lang and those people are going to 397 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:53,080 Speaker 1: fix it before I got to forty, and failing that, yeah, 398 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 1: I would be the exception. And uh and but then 399 00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:59,159 Speaker 1: it turned out that I was profoundly not the exception. 400 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 1: And you know, I point out in the book that 401 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,879 Speaker 1: it pretty much happens, happened to all my peers, and 402 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:08,400 Speaker 1: it just happens to everybody mostly. It really is a 403 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:14,119 Speaker 1: true phenomenon that happens. And uh, so I was. I 404 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:20,280 Speaker 1: was shocked by that. And I had always taken time two. 405 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:22,480 Speaker 1: I was very picky always about what I wanted to 406 00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:24,800 Speaker 1: say yes to, and partly because I had played such 407 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:28,080 Speaker 1: incredible rules. So I was happy to wait a year 408 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:30,320 Speaker 1: until the next good thing came along. But to suddenly 409 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:33,720 Speaker 1: have to wait a year, two years, three years for 410 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:37,679 Speaker 1: the next good thing to come along was stunning. Do 411 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:40,720 Speaker 1: you think that that is still the case in Hollywood, Gina, 412 00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:44,440 Speaker 1: or do you think, um, have you seen that situation 413 00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:48,400 Speaker 1: improve at all? No? No, I haven't. Um. In fact, 414 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:53,320 Speaker 1: some of our research at my institute showed that uh 415 00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:59,280 Speaker 1: of characters and films are fifty or over and on 416 00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:04,760 Speaker 1: that only five of characters fifty and over are women. 417 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:12,000 Speaker 1: So it's happening. It's full on still there. So Meryl, 418 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:16,080 Speaker 1: Meryl Streep and actresses like that are clearly the exception, 419 00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:20,639 Speaker 1: not the rule, right, right, right. I talked to when 420 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:23,800 Speaker 1: I was first starting my institute, someone recommended that I 421 00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:29,720 Speaker 1: speak to a media personality and uh, talk, tell her 422 00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:32,720 Speaker 1: about it and maybe she'll want to cover it, and 423 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:35,760 Speaker 1: uh and I and so I got in touch with 424 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:39,359 Speaker 1: her and I explained that, um, that there were far 425 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:43,840 Speaker 1: fewer female characters were right then I was analyzing television 426 00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:46,160 Speaker 1: shows and movies made for kids, and I said, there's 427 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:49,239 Speaker 1: far fewer female characters in movies made for kids. And 428 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:52,560 Speaker 1: she said, no, no, no, that's so true. There's Meryl 429 00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:56,840 Speaker 1: Streep works all the time. And I was like, she 430 00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:00,840 Speaker 1: and kids TV? And plus, what does that have to 431 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:05,840 Speaker 1: do with anything I'm talking about data? But anyway, yeah, 432 00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:10,080 Speaker 1: it was. It was pretty shocking all that. And you 433 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:13,080 Speaker 1: did start the institute, but before you did that, in 434 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:15,639 Speaker 1: your forties, that's when you decided you wanted to have 435 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:19,960 Speaker 1: children and you became you got into archery and almost 436 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:23,359 Speaker 1: made the Olympic team, right, I mean, where did that 437 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:27,320 Speaker 1: come from? Uh? You know, Um, it happened that I 438 00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:30,199 Speaker 1: had had to learn some skills that I didn't have 439 00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:32,639 Speaker 1: in real life for movies, Like the first one was 440 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:36,399 Speaker 1: learning baseball for leading their own and that's when I 441 00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:39,600 Speaker 1: found out for the first time at thirty five, that 442 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:44,840 Speaker 1: I was physically coordinated and athletic actually, and was so 443 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:48,320 Speaker 1: stunning that um, it really changed the way I thought 444 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:51,880 Speaker 1: about myself and my body. And then you know, Controt Island, 445 00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:55,840 Speaker 1: I'm learning sword fighting, and then the Longest Good Night, 446 00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:59,360 Speaker 1: I'm learning taekwondo and ice skating and all this other stuff. 447 00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:04,400 Speaker 1: And so then I decided I wanted to see if 448 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:06,840 Speaker 1: I could take up a sport in real life and 449 00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:09,640 Speaker 1: do well at it, not just a movie version of 450 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:16,080 Speaker 1: whatever it was. And saw archery on TV and I thought, oh, 451 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:17,840 Speaker 1: it's so beautiful. I wonder if I could be good 452 00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:22,880 Speaker 1: at that. And I take everything too far, so you know, 453 00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:26,840 Speaker 1: I became obsessed and uh. And then I made it 454 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:28,880 Speaker 1: to the Olympic trials two and a half years later, 455 00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:35,200 Speaker 1: and that's unbelievable. But getting back to this disappointment at 456 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:39,240 Speaker 1: rolls drying up when you were forty really ignited this 457 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:45,320 Speaker 1: curiosity in you about women and how they're portrayed in media. 458 00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:49,080 Speaker 1: And I remember it was watching cartoons with your daughter. 459 00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:54,000 Speaker 1: I believe that spurred you on to want to change things. 460 00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:58,600 Speaker 1: Can you tell that story. Yes it was, Yes, it 461 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:02,880 Speaker 1: wasn't Roles drying up at all. Really that um spurred 462 00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:05,680 Speaker 1: me onto one to create a research institute. It was 463 00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:09,520 Speaker 1: my daughter when she was a toddler. I decided, Hey, 464 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:13,200 Speaker 1: let's I'll show us some preschool shows. You know, great idea, 465 00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:15,400 Speaker 1: that'll be fun. And I ever sitting on my lap, 466 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:19,360 Speaker 1: and the very first thing we watched, within five minutes 467 00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:22,000 Speaker 1: or ten minutes, I was like, how many how many 468 00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:25,440 Speaker 1: female characters are on this show? And it was one 469 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:28,800 Speaker 1: and with lots of other male characters, and I thought, 470 00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:31,520 Speaker 1: wait a minute. And then I saw it everywhere in 471 00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:34,960 Speaker 1: movies and TV and videos and everything for kids, and 472 00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:38,960 Speaker 1: but seeing it through her eyes made me realize, wait 473 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 1: a minute, we are teaching kids to have gender bias 474 00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:47,280 Speaker 1: from minute one, like showing them imbalanced worlds where boys 475 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:51,000 Speaker 1: are more plentiful and do most of the interesting things. 476 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,560 Speaker 1: And uh, and there's one girl, you know usually And 477 00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:59,680 Speaker 1: so I didn't intend to take it to the extremes 478 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:03,360 Speaker 1: that I uh, but I couldn't find anybody in Hollywood 479 00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:06,520 Speaker 1: who noticed what I noticed. Every single person I talked 480 00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:10,800 Speaker 1: to said, that's not true anymore. No, that's that's that's 481 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:14,800 Speaker 1: been fixed, and Meryl Street is still working. Yeah, yeah, no, 482 00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:18,720 Speaker 1: seriously working. And also they would name a movie with 483 00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:23,200 Speaker 1: one female character as proof that gender inequality have been fixed. 484 00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:28,600 Speaker 1: So I thought, okay, so this is completely unconscious, and 485 00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:31,880 Speaker 1: if I get the data, I could take it directly 486 00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:34,280 Speaker 1: to them, because I kind of could get meetings with 487 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:41,120 Speaker 1: people and tell them something they don't know. And because 488 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:43,120 Speaker 1: they make stuff for kids and they must love kids, 489 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:47,640 Speaker 1: so this could actually change things, and it happens, it worked. 490 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:51,480 Speaker 1: I mean, I am so impressed by your commitment to 491 00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:55,240 Speaker 1: this GENA because this wasn't something that you sort of 492 00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:58,520 Speaker 1: dabbled in. I mean, you have been focused on this 493 00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:01,840 Speaker 1: for a very long time, and you have taken a 494 00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:07,440 Speaker 1: very research oriented approach, a very data driven approach, by 495 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:13,840 Speaker 1: working with USC and by really providing the information and 496 00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:18,760 Speaker 1: the evidence of gender bias, so executives and people couldn't 497 00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:23,200 Speaker 1: couldn't really come up with an excuse for why they 498 00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:26,600 Speaker 1: were doing certain things. Just give our listeners a bit 499 00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:29,800 Speaker 1: of insight into some of the things you did and 500 00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:35,000 Speaker 1: have done in terms of showing how few speaking parts 501 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:39,480 Speaker 1: there are for women, how few women centric roles there are, 502 00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:42,680 Speaker 1: and you just kind of tell us briefly some of 503 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:46,080 Speaker 1: the work you did and some of the changes that 504 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:50,400 Speaker 1: were implemented because of your work, right right, Well, part 505 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:53,520 Speaker 1: of my approach to this from the beginning was I'm 506 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:58,080 Speaker 1: going to go privately because this is unconscious. There's no 507 00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:00,600 Speaker 1: point in busting them. You didn't want to aim anyone, 508 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:03,120 Speaker 1: and there's no reason to get the public involved even 509 00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:05,200 Speaker 1: you know. I mean the other way to go might 510 00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:08,760 Speaker 1: have been educate the populace and have them demand whatever. 511 00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:11,360 Speaker 1: But I thought, I know, I can go in private 512 00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:13,680 Speaker 1: to them and just like nobody even has to know 513 00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:16,840 Speaker 1: that I'm doing it. So the research from the beginning 514 00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:23,360 Speaker 1: boys numbers and quantity and quality. Uh So, we always 515 00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:27,520 Speaker 1: looked at the occupations, the aspirations and those kinds of 516 00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:31,440 Speaker 1: things of the characters, and we also looked at um 517 00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:34,600 Speaker 1: from the beginning, looked at people of color as well, 518 00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:38,160 Speaker 1: and presented it to them. And people sometimes asked me, 519 00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:42,880 Speaker 1: you know, did anybody have resistance? And uh and never were. 520 00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:46,680 Speaker 1: Always people were so shocked because they were so sure 521 00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:49,560 Speaker 1: they were doing right by girls. They're so shocked and 522 00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:52,480 Speaker 1: want to do better and have I mean, we've made 523 00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:57,000 Speaker 1: tremendous strides, but now we have we have six categories 524 00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:00,680 Speaker 1: under representation that we that we look at women and 525 00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:04,880 Speaker 1: people of color, and people over fifty, people with large 526 00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:07,720 Speaker 1: body types, people with disabilities l G, B, t Q, 527 00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:10,880 Speaker 1: A, A A, and uh. So we look at all of 528 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:13,879 Speaker 1: it as well as what are their occupations, where their 529 00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:16,760 Speaker 1: goals were aspirations, so we can get a very complete 530 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:19,000 Speaker 1: picture to people when they when they want to know, 531 00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:24,040 Speaker 1: you know about their project and how have you affected change? 532 00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:26,720 Speaker 1: Because I want you to brag for a minute about 533 00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:30,600 Speaker 1: how this behind the scenes kind of quiet work you've 534 00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:35,040 Speaker 1: done has really made a difference. And what I always 535 00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:39,600 Speaker 1: admire about Eugena is you did this before it was 536 00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:42,560 Speaker 1: kind of I don't want to say cool, but before 537 00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:48,239 Speaker 1: more people, uh we're kind of jumping into this, and 538 00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:50,480 Speaker 1: I want to say jumping on the bandwagon because it's 539 00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:54,160 Speaker 1: such an important bandwagon to jump on. But before people 540 00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:57,360 Speaker 1: were really interested in these issues, you were in there 541 00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:01,120 Speaker 1: fighting the good fight and you did make some progress, 542 00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:05,520 Speaker 1: I mean significant progress. So Brad for a minute about 543 00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:13,720 Speaker 1: what people did when you pointed out these things. Yeah. Well, so, um. 544 00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:17,080 Speaker 1: Two years ago, we did an update on our on 545 00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:20,280 Speaker 1: our research for children's television shows, in other words, shows 546 00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:24,400 Speaker 1: made for kids eleven and under and found that for 547 00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:27,920 Speaker 1: the first time ever, we have reached gender parity in 548 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:31,759 Speaker 1: the lead characters. Uh equal, Mail and Field were so 549 00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:35,399 Speaker 1: different from what it was when we began. And then 550 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:40,520 Speaker 1: last year we updated our family film research and found 551 00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:43,200 Speaker 1: that the same thing had happened in family films that 552 00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:47,360 Speaker 1: now we've reached parody between male and female lead characters, 553 00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:51,759 Speaker 1: which was also incredibly different. And then, uh, we now 554 00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:56,640 Speaker 1: have found out that in children's TV shows, the world 555 00:35:56,719 --> 00:35:59,960 Speaker 1: that is, the fictitious world that has created is now 556 00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:03,759 Speaker 1: also which is you know that's has never happened. So, 557 00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:07,240 Speaker 1: I mean, those are some of our biggest goals. Uh. 558 00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:10,360 Speaker 1: And I'll talk about gender, right and and what about 559 00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:14,640 Speaker 1: behind the behind the camera? You know, female directors. It 560 00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:19,480 Speaker 1: seems that doors are opening much more frequently, but not 561 00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:25,440 Speaker 1: enough for female directors. And um, do you see some 562 00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:29,279 Speaker 1: some changes in that department as not only as the 563 00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:32,799 Speaker 1: result of your work, but as a result of I 564 00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:39,280 Speaker 1: think a much greater awareness of this issue just uniformly right, right, Well, 565 00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:43,960 Speaker 1: it's certainly a big change that women are directing some 566 00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:49,160 Speaker 1: very big budget movies. Uh. And uh, and that's that's different. 567 00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:51,799 Speaker 1: I mean, I think I think Penny Marsha would leave 568 00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:56,120 Speaker 1: their own director. The highest grossing was the highest grossing 569 00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:59,240 Speaker 1: movie for a female director. But uh, but that's different. 570 00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:01,279 Speaker 1: But really the mbers had not moved that much. And 571 00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:06,200 Speaker 1: the and the and the reason is, uh, I think 572 00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:10,560 Speaker 1: because it's conscious bias. People have known within the industry. 573 00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:14,680 Speaker 1: People have known for decades exactly what the numbers are, 574 00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:20,320 Speaker 1: so giving them the research will not make them, Uh say, 575 00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:23,400 Speaker 1: what what I had no idea, I wasn't hiring female directors. 576 00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:26,919 Speaker 1: Let me now change everything that it wouldn't work because 577 00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:30,920 Speaker 1: everybody already knew. So it had to be like you 578 00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:34,160 Speaker 1: couldn't use the technique that I had because it wasn't 579 00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:38,480 Speaker 1: necessarily unconscious, I think. But but things are definitely improving it. 580 00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:43,040 Speaker 1: Disney has really done an incredible job of not only 581 00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:46,200 Speaker 1: making more movies than anybody else starting a female character, 582 00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:52,520 Speaker 1: but uh, encouraging and developing female directors. But but it 583 00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:55,600 Speaker 1: is You're right, it is getting better, but it's not 584 00:37:55,800 --> 00:38:02,600 Speaker 1: anywhere near, uh even remotely every close to equal speaking 585 00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:04,279 Speaker 1: of a league of their own, did you see the 586 00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:10,120 Speaker 1: remake on Amazon? Well? Yes, Uh, I don't know. I 587 00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:13,239 Speaker 1: don't think you can call it a remake maybe it's 588 00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:18,000 Speaker 1: a rethink. Uh yeah, and it's this year is the 589 00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:21,680 Speaker 1: thirtieth anniversary to get their own and now there's this, Um, 590 00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:27,000 Speaker 1: there's this series. Um, there's still the Peaches, but they're 591 00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:30,919 Speaker 1: not our characters. There's some different characters. And uh. And 592 00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:35,120 Speaker 1: from what I've read about the motivation for this was 593 00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:40,280 Speaker 1: Penny Marshall. I mean at that time, the time was different. 594 00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:43,520 Speaker 1: And also, um, Penny said, I don't have enough real 595 00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:48,560 Speaker 1: estate to cover these topics. Um. There there weren't any 596 00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:55,080 Speaker 1: gay characters in the original movie. There was one very 597 00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:59,080 Speaker 1: short moment that looked at um, black women not being 598 00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:02,520 Speaker 1: allowed to be on the teams, and and they really 599 00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:05,720 Speaker 1: wanted to explore those aspects of it in a in 600 00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:07,399 Speaker 1: a in a much bigger way and a much more 601 00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:10,680 Speaker 1: modern way, really much more modern way. Yeah, but but 602 00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:16,120 Speaker 1: telling the story through you know this this period period piece. 603 00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:19,200 Speaker 1: Did you watch it? I saw I've seen the first 604 00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:23,200 Speaker 1: maybe three episodes, And what did you think? Was that 605 00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:26,680 Speaker 1: a strange experience for you to watch it? Or really fascinating? 606 00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:31,839 Speaker 1: It was strange and fascinating. It was. Yeah, it was 607 00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:35,719 Speaker 1: because it's like this looks so much like what you know, 608 00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:38,759 Speaker 1: what we did. They really captured, you know, the error again, 609 00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:41,520 Speaker 1: and there's all these um, I forget what they'll call, 610 00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:46,040 Speaker 1: but little nods to the original film. You know, like 611 00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:49,120 Speaker 1: the lead character in the TV show is also a 612 00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:51,480 Speaker 1: catch up. She's not like my character at all, but 613 00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:54,279 Speaker 1: she's also a catcher and uh. And she runs for 614 00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:56,800 Speaker 1: the train to get you know, to go to Wrigley 615 00:39:56,880 --> 00:40:00,000 Speaker 1: Field and um, and one of the characters catches a ball, 616 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:04,759 Speaker 1: all bare handed nods nods, I guess too, to the 617 00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:08,240 Speaker 1: original film. Meanwhile, in addition to this book, you've got 618 00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:14,040 Speaker 1: an exciting thing happening on screen because Zoe Kravitz, her 619 00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:19,439 Speaker 1: directorial debut is called Pussy Island. And um, you are 620 00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:23,480 Speaker 1: in that film, right, so tell me about that and 621 00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:28,719 Speaker 1: how that came to be. Um, I got you know, 622 00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:31,279 Speaker 1: the request, would I would I like to be in 623 00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:35,400 Speaker 1: this movie? And um and uh. And I loved the script. 624 00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:39,520 Speaker 1: I was so shocked by the title. It's uh. But 625 00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:42,319 Speaker 1: I'm shocked that people just say it. You know, I 626 00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:45,560 Speaker 1: think ten years ago people would have put p asters astros, 627 00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:49,080 Speaker 1: why or whatever. But um, but I love the script 628 00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:53,440 Speaker 1: and I really loved the character because I get to 629 00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:58,760 Speaker 1: be quite funny in this role. I play. Uh Channing 630 00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:03,640 Speaker 1: Tatum's instant and for various reasons, he needs an assistant, 631 00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:08,239 Speaker 1: and I am the worst assistant ever. I fall in 632 00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:11,000 Speaker 1: the pool, I'm dropping things, I can't keep things straight 633 00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:14,560 Speaker 1: and and it's all funny. But then later you find 634 00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:17,319 Speaker 1: out why I'm like that. So it's not just that 635 00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:19,840 Speaker 1: I am like that anyway. Is it a thriller? Is 636 00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:25,080 Speaker 1: it a comedy? What is it a thriller? Well? That's exciting. 637 00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:28,120 Speaker 1: And what else are you up to in addition to 638 00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:34,200 Speaker 1: being in p Island and and writing your book? Um? 639 00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:38,480 Speaker 1: Anything else on the horizon? No? No, not, I mean no, 640 00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:42,080 Speaker 1: not in the immediate um, in the immediate future. I 641 00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:44,399 Speaker 1: have to be very careful what I get interested in, 642 00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:47,920 Speaker 1: because whatever it is, I will want to go to 643 00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:51,759 Speaker 1: the Olympics in it. Uh. So I'm you know, carefully 644 00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:55,600 Speaker 1: choosing choosing what I what I next get involved in. 645 00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:58,240 Speaker 1: But I'm you know, allowing some other movies and TV 646 00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:01,160 Speaker 1: shows and things like that. Yeah. Well, um, I love 647 00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:04,239 Speaker 1: every time I see you on the screen figure small 648 00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:09,680 Speaker 1: and and Gina. I'm as I said a few times already, 649 00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:14,560 Speaker 1: it's so wonderful the work you've done promoting women and 650 00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:18,799 Speaker 1: other kind of marginalized people and making sure that they 651 00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:21,520 Speaker 1: have that their front and center. Because you and I 652 00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:26,200 Speaker 1: have talked about it many times how critically important representation 653 00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:32,440 Speaker 1: is for for society and for kind of unleashing the 654 00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:37,000 Speaker 1: ambitions of everyone who's watching, because you know, seeing what 655 00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:41,040 Speaker 1: is possible on the screen really does translate, I think, 656 00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:46,000 Speaker 1: into people's everyday lives. It really does. You need to 657 00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:50,920 Speaker 1: see yourself reflected, uh in the popular culture. I mean 658 00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:53,840 Speaker 1: that's that's where you get information about what's important. And 659 00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:56,800 Speaker 1: if you don't see somebody like yourself, you're like, Okay, 660 00:42:56,920 --> 00:43:00,000 Speaker 1: I get it. I guess I'm not important to anybody 661 00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:04,160 Speaker 1: in um. So it's very important to change that. Yes, 662 00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:09,719 Speaker 1: China Davis's memoir is called Dying of Politeness and it's 663 00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:19,240 Speaker 1: out now. Next Question with Katie Kurik is a production 664 00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:22,600 Speaker 1: of I Heart Media and Katie Curic Media. The executive 665 00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:27,280 Speaker 1: producers Army Katie Curic and Courtney Litz. The supervising producer 666 00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:32,240 Speaker 1: is Lauren Hansen. Associate producers Derek Clements and Adriana Fasio. 667 00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:35,960 Speaker 1: The show is edited and mixed by Derrick Clements. For 668 00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:38,880 Speaker 1: more information about today's episode, or to sign up for 669 00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:41,880 Speaker 1: My Morning newsletter Wake Up Call. Go to Katie currek 670 00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:44,560 Speaker 1: dot com. You can also find me at Katie curic 671 00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:48,279 Speaker 1: on Instagram and all my social media channels. For more 672 00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:51,879 Speaker 1: podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, 673 00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:55,640 Speaker 1: Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.