1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:04,279 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, A production 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:13,400 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:16,919 Speaker 1: I'm Holly Fry and I'm Tracy Vie Wilson. So, while 4 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:20,160 Speaker 1: researching some other episode recently, and I don't even remember 5 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 1: which one, there are several that could have landed me here, 6 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:26,720 Speaker 1: I came across just a casual mention of Sonora Webster 7 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:30,080 Speaker 1: Carver and I looked into her briefly, and then I 8 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:34,120 Speaker 1: had to resist jumping to work on her story at 9 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 1: the time because I was already so far along in 10 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 1: the other topic that I would have really made my 11 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:41,640 Speaker 1: life miserable to change over that late in the game. 12 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 1: But I was enthralled by her story and a little 13 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:48,760 Speaker 1: bit trepidacious because it does involve animal trick acts that 14 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:52,519 Speaker 1: look very, very dangerous. It is, uh, the story is 15 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:55,560 Speaker 1: mostly heartbreak free in that regard. There's there's one thing 16 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 1: we'll mention at the end. Um. It was, however, incredibly dangerous, 17 00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:03,040 Speaker 1: but it was primarily for the riders. Uh. And what 18 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: we're talking about today is horse diving, which includes horses 19 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:12,119 Speaker 1: diving off of platforms. Again, it looks terrifying. We'll talk 20 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 1: about that relationship with the animals and and their training 21 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:17,679 Speaker 1: and whatnot. And we're going to talk about not just 22 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:20,920 Speaker 1: horse diving, but probably the most famous horse diver of 23 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:23,679 Speaker 1: her time, certainly possibly all time, and that is Sonara 24 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:27,440 Speaker 1: Webster Carver. But to talk about her, we actually first 25 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 1: have to talk briefly about Doc Carver to begin with, 26 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 1: to set the groundwork, um, because he invented this entertainment. 27 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:39,320 Speaker 1: Uh and Doc carver story is a roller coaster. He 28 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:42,000 Speaker 1: if you've done any reading about like wild West shows, 29 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 1: you've heard of him. His life was filled with a 30 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:46,960 Speaker 1: lot of adventure and a lot of wild tales, some 31 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:49,560 Speaker 1: of which are probably tall but he genuinely did some 32 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 1: very very uh, surprising and perhaps bananas things. But we're 33 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:57,320 Speaker 1: going to give a very brief version of his life here. 34 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 1: William Frank Carver was born in eighteen fifty one in Winslow, Illinois, 35 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 1: and his childhood is pretty undocumented. The stories that he 36 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:10,400 Speaker 1: told about it really contradicted each other. Even biographies differ 37 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:13,639 Speaker 1: on what year he was born. They differ pretty wildly 38 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:17,800 Speaker 1: because Doc would sometimes claim to have been born not 39 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 1: in eighteen fifty one, but in eighteen forty. Yeah, there 40 00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:24,840 Speaker 1: are various reasons for that probably gave him some credibility 41 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:26,960 Speaker 1: early on in his life, and he just ran with it. 42 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:30,440 Speaker 1: And then later on their discussions of people saying, wow, 43 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 1: you look amazing for your age, and he was like, thanks, 44 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:36,519 Speaker 1: but he was eleven years younger than he was claiming 45 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:40,080 Speaker 1: to be. But the important part is that as an adult, Carver, 46 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:42,760 Speaker 1: who got the nickname Doc because he was trained as 47 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:46,680 Speaker 1: a dentist, became a skilled sharpshooter, and he toured the 48 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 1: world in sharp shooting exhibitions and competitions, and he made 49 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:52,640 Speaker 1: a pretty decent living doing it. He also had a 50 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:55,440 Speaker 1: Wild West show with Buffalo Bill Cody for a time 51 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:57,639 Speaker 1: before the two men had a falling out That is 52 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:00,799 Speaker 1: a whole story in and of itself. Uh. Obsequent touring 53 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:04,280 Speaker 1: shows that Carver mounted on his own without Buffalo Bill 54 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 1: were successful, but they ultimately fell apart for a couple 55 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 1: of reasons. One was economic depression, which meant that people 56 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:13,840 Speaker 1: couldn't buy tickets, and also because it was discovered that 57 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:17,959 Speaker 1: Carver had actually been using kidnapped Native Americans in his act, 58 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 1: and some of them he had just abandoned overseas. But 59 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:26,200 Speaker 1: so many layers, of so many layers he wrote a 60 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:29,800 Speaker 1: play titled The Scout, which also toured after this shooting 61 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:32,919 Speaker 1: act ended, but once it wound down, he launched a 62 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:36,480 Speaker 1: new entertainment project, and that was using horses and water 63 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 1: as spectacle dot. Carver claimed the idea for horse diving 64 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:44,040 Speaker 1: had come to him in eight one when he was 65 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 1: crossing a bridge over the Platte River on horseback and 66 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:50,760 Speaker 1: the bridge collapsed. As he and his horse fell into 67 00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:53,120 Speaker 1: the river and survived, it occurred to him that he 68 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:56,640 Speaker 1: could turn that ability into a show. Although he did 69 00:03:56,640 --> 00:04:00,440 Speaker 1: not make it into one for another thirteen years. Doc 70 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:04,640 Speaker 1: did include sort of a minimized stage version of his 71 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:08,360 Speaker 1: fall from that bridge in his performances of The Scout, 72 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:11,520 Speaker 1: But when it came to the larger scale dive show, Doc, 73 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:13,760 Speaker 1: who at that point was getting older and was heavier 74 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 1: than would have been healthy for the horses to carry, 75 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:19,320 Speaker 1: was not one of the stunt riders. He focused instead 76 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:22,360 Speaker 1: on training the horses, and one of the skills that 77 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 1: he really developed was getting a sense of which horses 78 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:27,960 Speaker 1: were game for this job, and according to him, even 79 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:30,680 Speaker 1: enjoyed it. He claimed that when he was doing the 80 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 1: short stage drops in The Scout, which drops a horse 81 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:37,960 Speaker 1: into a small body of water. It was just a 82 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:40,479 Speaker 1: couple of feet, but most of the horses could only 83 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:43,120 Speaker 1: be used once because even though that was a very 84 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 1: short drop and it was handled, according to him, very safely, 85 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:48,719 Speaker 1: they were usually too frightened by the experience to do 86 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:51,440 Speaker 1: it again. But then he did discover one that not 87 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:54,360 Speaker 1: only seemed fine with it, but would literally walk back 88 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:57,719 Speaker 1: around and reset himself, ready to do that trick again 89 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 1: without any urging, which gave him a sense some horses 90 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:03,920 Speaker 1: actually seemed to enjoy it. Whether or not that's the case, 91 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:07,520 Speaker 1: we don't know. The first of Doc Carver's diving shows 92 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:09,880 Speaker 1: was held in Kansas City, Missouri. That was in the 93 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:13,360 Speaker 1: summer of eight and it was an immediate hit. He 94 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:16,760 Speaker 1: started touring and he had the same success everywhere he went. 95 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:20,240 Speaker 1: People just flocked to the novelty of seeing horses dive 96 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:22,680 Speaker 1: into the water. So now we're going to get to 97 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 1: Sonora Webster, who was born in Waycross, Georgia on February 98 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 1: two four. Her family was working class, and we honestly 99 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:33,560 Speaker 1: don't know a whole lot more about it than that. 100 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 1: Um I managed to locate some records on a genealogy 101 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:40,320 Speaker 1: site that indicated that her parents were Ula Marion Webster 102 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 1: Senior and Lila Gertrude are net Webster. But keep in 103 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:46,560 Speaker 1: mind those sites are crowdsource, so that's not what we 104 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:51,640 Speaker 1: would consider necessarily like a um uh, definite source he 105 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:55,640 Speaker 1: would use. Again, there's next to nothing of them. But 106 00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 1: we're gonna talk a little bit more about her family 107 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:01,360 Speaker 1: and just a bit from an early age. Nora loved horses. 108 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:04,920 Speaker 1: When she was five, she tried to trade her newborn 109 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:08,160 Speaker 1: brother for a carriage horse named Sam that she had 110 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:10,440 Speaker 1: fallen in love with. This is where I fall in 111 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:13,360 Speaker 1: love with Sonora, because when I was about that age, 112 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:15,839 Speaker 1: I tried to sell my little brother at a yard sale, 113 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 1: just because I thought money would be better than a brother. 114 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:21,360 Speaker 1: I guess I don't know. I was five, She's Weelon 115 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:27,080 Speaker 1: and Delon. Sam's owner had made the offer of a 116 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 1: trade in jest, and Sonora had actually gotten her baby 117 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 1: brother out of his crib to take him to the 118 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 1: neighbor for the trade. When her parents caught her at 119 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:38,120 Speaker 1: what she was doing, she described her let down at 120 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:41,920 Speaker 1: this deal falling apart as quote literally bursting with grief. 121 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 1: I was not bursting with grief. My mother was just 122 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:46,720 Speaker 1: like you know you cannot sell your brother at the 123 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 1: yard sale. You were kicking the dirt, but not probably 124 00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:54,800 Speaker 1: crying in your room. Fortunately, living in Waycross gave her 125 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:59,040 Speaker 1: ample opportunities for time with horses, even without any nefarious 126 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:02,720 Speaker 1: trades of siblings and evolved Livestock was often held at 127 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:05,320 Speaker 1: the railroad yards in way Cross as a stopping point, 128 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:07,400 Speaker 1: and she would visit every morning on her way to 129 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 1: school just for a glimpse of the horses. Often she 130 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:12,600 Speaker 1: got to school late as a result of this and 131 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:16,240 Speaker 1: did not seem to care. She flunked first grade because 132 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 1: of it. That sort of set a tone for her education. 133 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:21,120 Speaker 1: By the time she was in high school, she was 134 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:25,400 Speaker 1: routinely cutting classes to ride horses. She didn't finish school, 135 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:27,920 Speaker 1: not because of the horses, but because her mother had 136 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:29,920 Speaker 1: to leave way Cross to take care of her own 137 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 1: ailing father, and that meant that Sonora had to look 138 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 1: after her younger siblings. She wasn't doing very well in 139 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 1: school anyway. Her grades were okay, but she was having 140 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 1: other issues. She had been rejected by a boy that 141 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:44,840 Speaker 1: she had really fallen for, and she was super embarrassed 142 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:48,080 Speaker 1: about the whole thing and heartbroken, and the combination of 143 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 1: those factors just made her very, very willing to drop 144 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 1: out under the guise of responsibility to her siblings. Still, 145 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 1: she did say later in life that she regretted not 146 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 1: finishing school. Information Sonora's early life is pretty sparse, and 147 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:05,560 Speaker 1: Holly even found a source that indicated that she was 148 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:09,680 Speaker 1: an orphan. That's not the case, though it is clear 149 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 1: where the idea might have come from. She doesn't talk 150 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:16,440 Speaker 1: about her father at all in her autobiography, and her 151 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 1: mother is never mentioned by her given name. She's just 152 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 1: called mother. She also fleetingly references quote conflicts in my 153 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:27,440 Speaker 1: parents marriage once in her autobiography when she's talking about 154 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:30,800 Speaker 1: her own views on marriage. But that's really it. As 155 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:33,079 Speaker 1: we'll see in Just a Moment, she found an alternate 156 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 1: father figure in her late teens who seems to have 157 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:39,600 Speaker 1: been a lot more important to her. Yeah, she had 158 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:43,840 Speaker 1: some issues with her mom. Uh, we can talk more 159 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:46,320 Speaker 1: about some of those in her behind the scenes. But 160 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:50,320 Speaker 1: soon after Sonora left school, the family moved to Savannah. 161 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:52,320 Speaker 1: This was kind of on a whim of her mother's 162 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:55,360 Speaker 1: when she saw listing for a home that sounded charming, 163 00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:58,559 Speaker 1: and off they went. There is no mention again of 164 00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:00,960 Speaker 1: her father and it seems that her mother at this 165 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:04,000 Speaker 1: point was raising the kids entirely on her own. This 166 00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 1: was one of a series of spontaneous moves that the 167 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:10,960 Speaker 1: family had over the years. Sonora, whose siblings were at 168 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:14,000 Speaker 1: this point all school age, was desperate to strike out 169 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:16,760 Speaker 1: on her own, largely because she was tired of her 170 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 1: mother's desires determining her fate. It was actually Sonora's mother 171 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:25,400 Speaker 1: that found the route to freedom for her daughter in right, 172 00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 1: So anytime you see any sort of abbreviated story of 173 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:32,240 Speaker 1: Sonora's life, it is often told that she saw the 174 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:35,880 Speaker 1: following listing in the Savannah paper and immediately went to 175 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:40,600 Speaker 1: see dot Carver and that ad read wanted attractive young 176 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:44,440 Speaker 1: woman who can swim and dive, likes horses, desires to 177 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:49,120 Speaker 1: travel see Dr W F. Carver Savannah Hotel. She did 178 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 1: see that ad, but it was her mother who had 179 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:55,439 Speaker 1: brought it to her attention, and according to Sonora's autobiography, 180 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 1: she did not immediately jump at the idea. Her response 181 00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 1: to her mother suggesting that she would be perfect for 182 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:04,720 Speaker 1: this horse diving job was quote me, dive on a horse, mother, 183 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:07,800 Speaker 1: You've lost your mind. She insisted that she did not 184 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:10,200 Speaker 1: want to meet Carver or any of the people in 185 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:17,040 Speaker 1: his company. I love I love her mother. You've lost 186 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 1: your minds. Her mother's ongoing pestering, though, led Sonora to 187 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 1: the Savannah Hotel one Wednesday evening, and she did meet 188 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:28,599 Speaker 1: with Dr Carver, his son Alan, his daughter Lorena, and 189 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 1: a stunt woman named Vivian who was working with the 190 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:34,319 Speaker 1: family at the time. Sonora thought Dr Carver, who was 191 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 1: eighty four at this point, was quote the most distinguished 192 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:40,440 Speaker 1: man I had ever met. But even then, when Carver 193 00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:43,679 Speaker 1: offered her a job on the spot, Sonora didn't take it. 194 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:46,559 Speaker 1: She turned him down. She explained the whole visit had 195 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:49,200 Speaker 1: just been to appease her mother and that she didn't 196 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:51,959 Speaker 1: see a life for herself as part of a traveling 197 00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 1: horse act. But instead of abandoning the thought entirely, Sonora 198 00:10:56,440 --> 00:10:59,640 Speaker 1: Webster whipped to the fair and watched that diving horse act, 199 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:03,560 Speaker 1: and she was, in her own word, spell bound. She 200 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:06,880 Speaker 1: described the scene quote, A girl in a red bathing suit, 201 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 1: brown football helmet, and white sneaker sat on a railing 202 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 1: at the top of the tower, looking intently down a 203 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 1: steep ramp. In a moment, she gave a signal with 204 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 1: her hand, and instantly there came the sound of a 205 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:22,079 Speaker 1: horse's hoofs hitting the runway, and as she galloped past, 206 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:25,439 Speaker 1: the girl on the railing jumped on. They drew up 207 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:27,400 Speaker 1: together at the head of the platform, where there was 208 00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:30,040 Speaker 1: a drop off, and the horse stood for a moment 209 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:33,679 Speaker 1: like a beautiful statue. She hung for a moment at 210 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 1: an almost perpendicular angle, and then pushed away from the 211 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:41,160 Speaker 1: boards and lunged outward into space. For a split second, 212 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:44,280 Speaker 1: her form was imprinted on the night sky like a silhouette. 213 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:47,920 Speaker 1: Then her beautiful body arched gracefully over and down and 214 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:51,839 Speaker 1: plunged into the tank. We'll talk about how witnessing horse 215 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:55,360 Speaker 1: diving changed Sonora's mind and her life after we take 216 00:11:55,400 --> 00:12:07,600 Speaker 1: a quick sponsor break. So, after watching horse diving for herself, 217 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:10,520 Speaker 1: Sonora decided that she did in fact want to take 218 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 1: Carver up on his offer. But by the time she 219 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:15,920 Speaker 1: came to this decision, the Carver Show was getting ready 220 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:19,679 Speaker 1: to leave Savannah the following morning. She dressed as quickly 221 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:22,080 Speaker 1: as she could, she skipped breakfast, and she rushed to 222 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:24,960 Speaker 1: the hotel in the hopes of intercepting Dot Carver and 223 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:28,200 Speaker 1: his company before they left town. And in her autobiography 224 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:31,560 Speaker 1: she mentioned she could never recall their exact conversation, but 225 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:33,800 Speaker 1: she knew she did not make clear to them that 226 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:36,240 Speaker 1: she wanted to join their show, and they kind of 227 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:38,560 Speaker 1: had some sort of talk, and then they left without her. 228 00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 1: Three months later, though, dot Carver wrote her a letter 229 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:45,360 Speaker 1: restating his offer, quote, if you still want to learn 230 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:48,560 Speaker 1: to ride the diving horses, reply at this address. So 231 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:52,640 Speaker 1: she did, and then she waited and waited and waited, 232 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 1: and after several weeks he appeared in person in Savannah 233 00:12:56,480 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 1: and asked how soon Sonora could leave. She was given 234 00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:02,200 Speaker 1: us salary of fifty dollars a week, and that was 235 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 1: more than triple what she had been earning as a 236 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:08,440 Speaker 1: department store bookkeeper in Savannah. Yes, she had kind of 237 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:10,560 Speaker 1: been making a life for her own. She had moved 238 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:12,480 Speaker 1: out of the family house and into a boarding house. 239 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:15,320 Speaker 1: But this suddenly seemed like riches and they get to 240 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:19,960 Speaker 1: ride horses. Um. So she soon found herself alongside the 241 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 1: rest of Carver's crew in Jacksonville, Florida. That's where they 242 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:25,840 Speaker 1: were spending the winter months prepping for the next season, 243 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:29,200 Speaker 1: and she saw how they cared for the horses. Doc's son, 244 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:31,360 Speaker 1: Alan was in charge of their day to day care 245 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:35,080 Speaker 1: and managing the groomers that they hired. Duc's daughter, Lorena, 246 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:38,080 Speaker 1: was a trick rider, but she had injured a muscle 247 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:40,000 Speaker 1: in her leg and she was not ready to perform 248 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:43,319 Speaker 1: again yet. Sonora had to learn how to ride bareback, 249 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:46,719 Speaker 1: which was entirely new to her and very challenging. That 250 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:49,800 Speaker 1: left her bruised all over her legs, and when she 251 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:52,320 Speaker 1: got smacked by a horse moving its head and got 252 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:54,960 Speaker 1: a bloody nose, Dot Carver made it clear that she 253 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:58,040 Speaker 1: was the one at fault. She really bristled at that, 254 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 1: but she took the lesson to always be full, so 255 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:04,360 Speaker 1: she continued to exercise the horses and practice riding and 256 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:07,680 Speaker 1: develop her relationships with the animals. It was a while, though, 257 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:10,600 Speaker 1: before she got to the diving part. When they finally 258 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 1: started touring, they would have to set up their entire 259 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:17,800 Speaker 1: diving platform and pool system in each location, so they 260 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:20,480 Speaker 1: would dig out tanks from the ground that were forty 261 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:23,760 Speaker 1: five ft long, twenty five ft wide, and eleven feet deep. 262 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:27,040 Speaker 1: Doc Carver and his son had experimented to find that 263 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:30,040 Speaker 1: right depth. It sounds so shallow to me, but uh 264 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:34,560 Speaker 1: their experiments when they had tried deeper pools, led to 265 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:37,880 Speaker 1: them discovering that the horses couldn't really get to touch 266 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:40,520 Speaker 1: bottom on those. They were a little too buoyant, and 267 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 1: they did better if they could get into the water, 268 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:45,560 Speaker 1: kind of hit the bottom with their hoofs, and then 269 00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:48,200 Speaker 1: push off to come up out of the water head first. 270 00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:51,160 Speaker 1: Otherwise they might roll in the water and get disoriented. 271 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:54,200 Speaker 1: So their standard tank size, which they had developed, was 272 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 1: lined with canvas, and it held an estimated thirty five 273 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:02,120 Speaker 1: thousand gallons of water par some of the um. The 274 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 1: humans also would just swim in it for exercise. They 275 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:08,280 Speaker 1: also included an incline on one end, so once the 276 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:11,120 Speaker 1: horses got out of the water or righted themselves in 277 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 1: the water, they could essentially walk right up that ramp 278 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:15,440 Speaker 1: and out of the pool when they were done with 279 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 1: the stunt. Above the tank was a tower which reached 280 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:22,160 Speaker 1: forty feet in height. It had a long ramp at 281 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 1: the back for the horses to make their ascent and 282 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:27,760 Speaker 1: a ladder for the divers. The divers didn't mount the 283 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:30,200 Speaker 1: horses until they were right on top of the tower 284 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 1: before the dive. The tower also had to be lit, 285 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:36,360 Speaker 1: since they gave shows day and night, but they also 286 00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 1: had to position that lighting really carefully to prevent reflections 287 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:42,880 Speaker 1: on the water which would scare the horses. All of 288 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:46,840 Speaker 1: this digging and construction and lighting was overseen by Doc 289 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:49,560 Speaker 1: and Alan, but it was always at the expense of 290 00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:52,960 Speaker 1: the fair or event that had booked the show. Doc 291 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 1: made sure that that was always in the contract. It 292 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:58,320 Speaker 1: does sound like quite a lot of work and money. 293 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:02,040 Speaker 1: It does. There where some of the discussions she talks 294 00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 1: about in her book was that they weren't really making 295 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 1: that much money because even though they had made these arrangements, 296 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:11,760 Speaker 1: they spent so much money traveling and getting the horses 297 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:14,000 Speaker 1: and all of this equipment moved around that by the 298 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:16,560 Speaker 1: time they got to their next destination in their next booking, 299 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:20,160 Speaker 1: they were almost out of cash. Sonora also had to 300 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:23,600 Speaker 1: learn to just dive herself, because sometimes they included trick 301 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:26,720 Speaker 1: dives in their shows as well as diving with the horses. 302 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:29,360 Speaker 1: There was a lower platform on the tower that was 303 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 1: twelve feet up instead of going right from that forty 304 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:35,160 Speaker 1: ft uh platform, and that was used for both humans 305 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 1: and horses to learn their diving in practice, and part 306 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:41,720 Speaker 1: of Sonora's training was being taught that she would. Initially, 307 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 1: when she started diving horses, always feel as though the 308 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:48,520 Speaker 1: horse was going to somersault forward as it leaned forward 309 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:50,840 Speaker 1: on its ramp off the diving board, but that it 310 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:53,080 Speaker 1: was not going to and she needed to resist the 311 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:56,680 Speaker 1: urge to react physically to it. Soon she was diving 312 00:16:56,680 --> 00:16:59,400 Speaker 1: with the horses with Alan, who she called Al as 313 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:03,080 Speaker 1: her coach. She later wrote, quote, as Al coached me, 314 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:05,959 Speaker 1: the odds between me and the hospital seemed to get smaller. 315 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:09,919 Speaker 1: She kept practicing, and soon she was deemed ready for 316 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:13,199 Speaker 1: a full height jump from the forty ft platform, but 317 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:16,879 Speaker 1: she didn't train at that height. Dot Carver had decided 318 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:20,080 Speaker 1: her first high platform jump would be in front of 319 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:23,679 Speaker 1: an audience. Sonora describes going kind of numb as she 320 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:26,240 Speaker 1: walked to the tower and started climbing for that jump, 321 00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:29,119 Speaker 1: which was in front of thousands of spectators in Durham, 322 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 1: North Carolina, but also feeling completely confident and at ease 323 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:35,760 Speaker 1: once she finally got up there. She later wrote of 324 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:38,920 Speaker 1: that first high dive quote, I felt his muscles tense 325 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:42,200 Speaker 1: as his big body sprang out and down, and then 326 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:45,880 Speaker 1: had an entirely new feeling. It was a wild, almost 327 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:49,600 Speaker 1: primitive thrill that comes only with complete freedom of contact 328 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:52,399 Speaker 1: with the earth. Then I saw the water rushing up 329 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:54,600 Speaker 1: at me, and the next moment we were in the tank. 330 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 1: We went in so smoothly that the wetness seemed the 331 00:17:58,119 --> 00:18:02,359 Speaker 1: only proof of landing. Also wrote of horses diving in general, quote, 332 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:05,640 Speaker 1: the physical, holy, sensual pleasure that comes with a drop 333 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:08,480 Speaker 1: from the tower down to the tank is a pleasure 334 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:12,960 Speaker 1: totally lacking in psychological or philosophical meaning. It's the sheer 335 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:16,200 Speaker 1: exhilaration of being entirely free of the earth as well 336 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:20,360 Speaker 1: as everything human. To me, no other physical sensation can 337 00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:25,400 Speaker 1: be so acute, so deeply intoxicating. Sonora started giving multiple 338 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:28,119 Speaker 1: shows a day as she was the only writer. The 339 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:30,439 Speaker 1: team split up and Al took two of the horses 340 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:33,200 Speaker 1: onto another booking so they could bring in more money. 341 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 1: Dot Carver trained another young woman to send along with 342 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:39,760 Speaker 1: that group while he and Sonora stayed in Durham since 343 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:43,720 Speaker 1: Lorena was still unable to ride. Once Lorena was fully healed, 344 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:45,960 Speaker 1: she literally got back on the horse as the sub 345 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:49,280 Speaker 1: writer was not as good as Al and Doc had hoped. 346 00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 1: Yeah the person they had sent along to that other booking, 347 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:54,199 Speaker 1: they determined did not really have the nerve to do 348 00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:57,199 Speaker 1: this job long term, so Lorena went to meet up 349 00:18:57,200 --> 00:18:59,879 Speaker 1: with her brother. At this point, Sonora was earning a 350 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:02,359 Speaker 1: hundred and twenty five dollars a week during the busy 351 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:06,280 Speaker 1: touring season, and she was often interviewed and photographed by press. 352 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:09,160 Speaker 1: She made sure, she would later say, to not get 353 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:11,199 Speaker 1: a big head about it and to remember that they 354 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:13,520 Speaker 1: were really there for the act and not for her. 355 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:17,200 Speaker 1: Throughout their time working together, it seems that Doc took 356 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:21,119 Speaker 1: on a sort of taskmaster fatherly role in Sonora's life, 357 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:23,960 Speaker 1: and she was really devoted to him. And this was 358 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:26,720 Speaker 1: even something that played out in the press, where Sonora 359 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:30,160 Speaker 1: was billed as Sonora Carver and reporters interviewed her so 360 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:33,720 Speaker 1: called father, Dr Carver dot Carver would spend all kinds 361 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:35,840 Speaker 1: of tales about how nervous he had been to let 362 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:38,960 Speaker 1: his little girl ride, but he couldn't keep her away 363 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:42,040 Speaker 1: from horses. So no doubt this was all intended to 364 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:45,240 Speaker 1: stir up interest around this idea of a worried dad 365 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:49,119 Speaker 1: and his daredevil daughter to sell tickets. Yeah, the first 366 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 1: of these articles I found, I got really excited because 367 00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:54,280 Speaker 1: they talked about her father being nervous and I'm like 368 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:56,439 Speaker 1: they found her father, and it was like, oh no, 369 00:19:56,680 --> 00:20:02,960 Speaker 1: this was a ruse. As they toured, Doc, who was 370 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:05,720 Speaker 1: in his eighties, needed her more and more just to 371 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:08,240 Speaker 1: handle many of the tasks of everyday life on the road. 372 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:10,480 Speaker 1: He seemed like he just grew really attached to her 373 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:12,919 Speaker 1: and wanted her around to help him with things, and 374 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:17,080 Speaker 1: he always wanted her to travel with him. Throughout nineteen seven, 375 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 1: his health had really declined. They had reluctantly gotten him 376 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:23,439 Speaker 1: to go to the hospital at one point while he 377 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:26,800 Speaker 1: and Sonora were traveling, which he did not like uh 378 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:29,880 Speaker 1: and eventually got out of and made clear he probably 379 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:34,680 Speaker 1: wasn't going to follow doctor's orders. And on August thirty one, 380 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:37,119 Speaker 1: he died after he and Sonora had met up with 381 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:40,600 Speaker 1: Al and Lorena and Sacramento for a booking, and a 382 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 1: lot of his obituaries list Sonora Carver as his daughter. 383 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:47,440 Speaker 1: There had already been some discussion of Alan taking over 384 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 1: his father's road show, so the transition in that regard 385 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:54,240 Speaker 1: was pretty smooth. In accordance with Doc's wishes, they didn't 386 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:57,840 Speaker 1: pause their performance schedule. They shipped his body to Winslow, 387 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:00,159 Speaker 1: Illinois to be interred. While they went on for the 388 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:04,320 Speaker 1: Sacramento contract. Under Al stewardship, the act changed a little bit. 389 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 1: So whereas Doc had always insisted on fairly conservative, plain 390 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 1: red swimsuits with the most modest cuts available, no adornment, 391 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:17,520 Speaker 1: and plain bathrobes, I'll let the performers choose their own outfits. 392 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 1: So Sonora and Lorena at a different colored suits with 393 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:24,800 Speaker 1: some spangles stitched onto them, and more glamorous robes with 394 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 1: embroidered backs. There's a great description where she talks about 395 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:30,320 Speaker 1: Lorena giving her a robe that she had embroidered with 396 00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:32,400 Speaker 1: a peacock on the back and how much she loved 397 00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:34,240 Speaker 1: it and it felt like the most glamorous garments she 398 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:37,960 Speaker 1: had ever worn. They also started traveling by car instead 399 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:41,280 Speaker 1: of by train, although initially the horses still needed to 400 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:43,440 Speaker 1: be shipped by train while they sought out the perfect 401 00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:47,399 Speaker 1: trailer for them. When Lorena decided to retire from performing 402 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:51,640 Speaker 1: to manage the second touring group, Sonora's sister Arnett joined 403 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:54,720 Speaker 1: as her replacement. And this is something that Sonora really 404 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:58,120 Speaker 1: thought long and hard about. She knew the dangers involved 405 00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:01,680 Speaker 1: with this work. They had ever had a horse get injured, 406 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:06,280 Speaker 1: but riders definitely had everything from bloody noses too, fractured 407 00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:09,960 Speaker 1: bones and teeth being knocked out, and a stunt man 408 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:13,200 Speaker 1: from the movie industry had begged Dot Carver to let 409 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 1: him try out horse diving and had actually broken his 410 00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:20,040 Speaker 1: neck and died on his first dive. But Sonora also 411 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:22,840 Speaker 1: knew that Arnette craved adventure in the same way that 412 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:26,600 Speaker 1: she did. She ultimately decided that at least if Arnette 413 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:28,240 Speaker 1: was with her, she could teach her how to be 414 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:31,560 Speaker 1: as safe as possible and might save her from making 415 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 1: more dangerous choices with her life. Al also acquired a 416 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:38,119 Speaker 1: paint horse named Red Lips during this time that was 417 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:42,000 Speaker 1: known for being incredibly obstinate. This is another great story 418 00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:45,520 Speaker 1: in her book about the farmer that owned him, being like, 419 00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 1: I'm not selling this horse. He might be satan. He 420 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:51,800 Speaker 1: had apparently tried to sell him and he kept getting 421 00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:55,399 Speaker 1: returned uh Sonora, and although both fell in love with 422 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 1: this horse and they learned to negotiate with his temperament. 423 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:00,879 Speaker 1: They even got him a baby as a pet to 424 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:04,200 Speaker 1: make him happy, which seemed to work. And Sonora's devotion 425 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:07,480 Speaker 1: to this particular horse would end up costing her greatly, 426 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:09,879 Speaker 1: which we'll talk about in a bit. Uh He was 427 00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:12,480 Speaker 1: a good diver, but he was a little bit dangerous 428 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:14,880 Speaker 1: because he likes to do what they call nose diving, 429 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:17,640 Speaker 1: meaning that he went into the water at an almost 430 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:20,639 Speaker 1: vertical angle straight in, rather than at a slant like 431 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:25,640 Speaker 1: most of the horses. Simultaneously, the relationship shifted between Al 432 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:29,360 Speaker 1: and Sonora. They had worked together for years, but once 433 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 1: they were working alone together, they got closer and closer 434 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:35,560 Speaker 1: over time, and they fell in love. She later wrote 435 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:38,199 Speaker 1: quote Al says he loved me from the beginning and 436 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:40,920 Speaker 1: that he had told himself soon after we met, someday 437 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:44,119 Speaker 1: I'm going to marry her, which is very flattering, but 438 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 1: from my viewpoint, open to argument, she's pretty funny. Uh. 439 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:54,320 Speaker 1: Al did eventually openly profess his love for Sonora, and 440 00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:56,960 Speaker 1: that actually made her feel kind of conflicted. She really 441 00:23:56,960 --> 00:24:00,280 Speaker 1: liked him too, but she had also seen bad mayor DGEs. 442 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:03,440 Speaker 1: This is the one time she mentions her parents conflicted marriage, 443 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:06,239 Speaker 1: and even in good marriages, it seemed to her like 444 00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:09,600 Speaker 1: the love eventually withered, or that having kids created this 445 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:13,439 Speaker 1: constant financial stress of having to provide for them. She 446 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:16,600 Speaker 1: liked being single, and she told Alice much, but Eventually 447 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:19,200 Speaker 1: she did agree to marry him. She was still a 448 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:22,119 Speaker 1: little bit unsure about it even as she said her vows. 449 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:25,640 Speaker 1: But after the quick morning ceremony that they had Al 450 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:29,159 Speaker 1: told her quote, I'll see to it that you're never sorry, 451 00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:31,560 Speaker 1: and then they got back to work. They actually had 452 00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:34,400 Speaker 1: a show to do that afternoon. A week later, Al 453 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:37,480 Speaker 1: gave Sonora a present that she said many brides would 454 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:41,160 Speaker 1: not have wanted but was quote the perfect one for me, 455 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:45,399 Speaker 1: A contract for a season's engagement at the Atlantic City 456 00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:49,480 Speaker 1: Steel Pier. This meant not only more stability and less 457 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:53,000 Speaker 1: constant travel, but also a custom built tank and tower. 458 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:57,240 Speaker 1: The humans also had actual dressing rooms, and the horses 459 00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:01,359 Speaker 1: had dedicated stall space. Our Nett's summer of horse diving 460 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:04,640 Speaker 1: had not gone spectacularly well. They had sent her home, 461 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 1: but she begged to come to Atlantic City to see 462 00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:10,600 Speaker 1: if there wasn't something else she could do, and Sonora 463 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:13,760 Speaker 1: and Al finally acquiesced to her repeated requests. On this, 464 00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:17,560 Speaker 1: Sonora found Our Network as part of a swimming, diving, 465 00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:20,560 Speaker 1: and water skiing act that was also contracted to appear 466 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 1: at the pier, and for the next several summers, the 467 00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:25,879 Speaker 1: sisters got to work together in Atlantic City, and they 468 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:28,600 Speaker 1: actually saw people that intersect with some of our other shows, 469 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:31,440 Speaker 1: like Johnny weiss Miller and John Philip Sousa as they 470 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:35,560 Speaker 1: came through on bookings as well. In one Sonora was 471 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:38,399 Speaker 1: performing a jump with her horse, Red Lips, when he 472 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:42,520 Speaker 1: went more aggressively vertical than usual. She was afraid that 473 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:45,240 Speaker 1: leaning forward to tuck her head next to his neck, 474 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:48,320 Speaker 1: which they normally did for safety, would cause him to 475 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:52,280 Speaker 1: just roll forward really dangerously, so she held her weight 476 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:55,119 Speaker 1: back to keep their balance, and as she later wrote, quote, 477 00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:57,960 Speaker 1: I was successful, but that position caused me to strike 478 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:00,520 Speaker 1: the water flat on my face instead of diving in 479 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:03,320 Speaker 1: at the top of my head, and the excitement of 480 00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:06,040 Speaker 1: the moment, I had failed to close my eyes quickly enough, 481 00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:08,959 Speaker 1: and as we hit I felt a dull, stinging sensation. 482 00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:11,440 Speaker 1: She stayed on the horse's back and wrote him out 483 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:13,679 Speaker 1: of the water, and although it had been rough, she 484 00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:16,600 Speaker 1: thought she was okay. But back in her dressing room 485 00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:18,720 Speaker 1: she told Al quote, I feel as if I were 486 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:22,239 Speaker 1: trying to peer through fog. Al wanted her to go 487 00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:24,560 Speaker 1: to a doctor, but instead she went back out for 488 00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:28,520 Speaker 1: the second show and two shows the next day. Things 489 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:31,240 Speaker 1: seemed to be getting better, and she wasn't in any pain, 490 00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:34,400 Speaker 1: so she thought she was fine. But as those foggy 491 00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:37,520 Speaker 1: patches disappeared, she found at first that her vision had 492 00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:40,520 Speaker 1: a yellow cast to it, but she still kept writing 493 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:43,040 Speaker 1: because again there was no pain. And then several days 494 00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:46,560 Speaker 1: later she had what she described as a smoky gray 495 00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:50,520 Speaker 1: curtain to her vision, which finally caused her to acknowledge 496 00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:53,440 Speaker 1: her own fear over what was happening, but she still 497 00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:56,640 Speaker 1: wrote again. That night, she wrote quote, I was also 498 00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,880 Speaker 1: protecting my pride. No one had ever had to take 499 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:02,439 Speaker 1: place on my horse, and no one was going to. 500 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:06,000 Speaker 1: When she finally went to the doctor, she was diagnosed 501 00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:09,600 Speaker 1: with detached retina's. The doctor hoped that he could save 502 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:12,160 Speaker 1: the site in her right eye, but he was frank 503 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:15,440 Speaker 1: that her left eye was beyond help. She had surgery, 504 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:17,720 Speaker 1: but the results were not what they had hoped for. 505 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 1: They tried additional procedures but had the same result. Sonora's 506 00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:26,040 Speaker 1: remaining site got worse, not better, and she became completely blind, 507 00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:29,320 Speaker 1: as she described it quote enveloped in folds of soft 508 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:33,080 Speaker 1: black velvet. We will talk about how Sonora came through 509 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 1: this period of convalescence, which was really difficult for someone 510 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:39,000 Speaker 1: who was so constantly active. But first we're going to 511 00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:41,320 Speaker 1: take a quick break for award from the sponsors to 512 00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:52,600 Speaker 1: keep stuff you missed in history class going. In her autobiography, 513 00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:57,200 Speaker 1: Sonora describes really frankly her mental journey during her time 514 00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:01,680 Speaker 1: convalescing and eventually accepting what was happening to her. She 515 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:06,280 Speaker 1: has this really long description of how the word blind 516 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:09,160 Speaker 1: started appearing in her mind. First, it's just a pinpoint 517 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:13,200 Speaker 1: of light that she refused to acknowledge, and over several days, 518 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:18,600 Speaker 1: eventually becoming larger and legible. And when she finally acknowledged 519 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:21,359 Speaker 1: this word, she experienced what she described as a sense 520 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:25,640 Speaker 1: of relief at finally naming her situation, but also panic. 521 00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:28,639 Speaker 1: And then, as she put it, a voice came to 522 00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:31,480 Speaker 1: her that said, quote, you know you'll never see again, 523 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:35,240 Speaker 1: will you let it ruin your life? She said no 524 00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 1: to that, uh, And then several days later she heard 525 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:41,080 Speaker 1: what she believed to be the voice of God saying quote, 526 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 1: don't be afraid you will see. She interpreted that to 527 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:48,680 Speaker 1: mean a greater mental vision and not the return of 528 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:52,280 Speaker 1: her actual eyesight, and she spent several days assessing her 529 00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:54,800 Speaker 1: relationship with the world around her. In this new state, 530 00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:57,440 Speaker 1: she wrote, quote, I decided that the best strategy I 531 00:28:57,440 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 1: could adopt would be to treat my blindness as if 532 00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:03,040 Speaker 1: it were a minor detail rather than a major catastrophe. 533 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:06,320 Speaker 1: I would thus be turning the tables on my handicap, 534 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:10,520 Speaker 1: in fact striking it. It's very potency. I was careful, however, 535 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:14,520 Speaker 1: not to delude myself. The way would not be easy. 536 00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:18,120 Speaker 1: The independence that had always been part of her personality 537 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:21,200 Speaker 1: for her entire life really came into play here. She 538 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,400 Speaker 1: very quickly grew tired of Al and her sister Arnett 539 00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:26,640 Speaker 1: trying to take care of her. She felt like she 540 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:29,560 Speaker 1: was being babied and she hated it. So she just 541 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,320 Speaker 1: started trying to do things herself to see how it went. 542 00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:34,880 Speaker 1: And she started with bathing, which she was really proud 543 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:37,520 Speaker 1: the first time she was able to like manage getting 544 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:40,160 Speaker 1: bathed herself. She's like, this is not something I can't do. 545 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:43,200 Speaker 1: She also found that she didn't want any help at 546 00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:45,480 Speaker 1: all soon, and the only thing that she let Al 547 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:48,600 Speaker 1: do for her was cut her meat at meals. She 548 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:51,760 Speaker 1: actually felt fine doing it, but it made him really 549 00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:54,520 Speaker 1: really nervous to watch her with a knife, so she 550 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:57,000 Speaker 1: eventually gave in and just let him handle it, and 551 00:29:57,080 --> 00:29:59,280 Speaker 1: she also went along with his desire to hire a 552 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:03,520 Speaker 1: cook for them. Does the casual socialization of life was 553 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:06,400 Speaker 1: this whole other fight, though. She found the way she 554 00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:09,680 Speaker 1: was treated was really frustrating, and she wrote about it quote. 555 00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:13,320 Speaker 1: The attitude of over protection towards the blind, not infrequent 556 00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:16,320 Speaker 1: among the sided, often can be more of a handicapped 557 00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:19,680 Speaker 1: than blindness itself, and one of the most damaging aspects 558 00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:23,000 Speaker 1: is the continual effort to help the blind person physically 559 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:26,720 Speaker 1: at the expense of the blind person's feelings. She lived 560 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:29,480 Speaker 1: in her head a lot in her initial days without vision, 561 00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:32,880 Speaker 1: learning brail was something that actually really delighted her. She 562 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:35,480 Speaker 1: talks about the tutor that someone found for her being 563 00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:39,320 Speaker 1: just an absolute breath of fresh air during this time, 564 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:41,560 Speaker 1: because it meant that she could read to pass the time, 565 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:45,520 Speaker 1: instead of only being in her thoughts or also having 566 00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:48,520 Speaker 1: to constantly explain to people that really she was perfectly 567 00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:52,440 Speaker 1: able to dress herself without assistance. When Atlantic City chose 568 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,720 Speaker 1: to renew the contract with al for another summer, Sonora's 569 00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:59,400 Speaker 1: first reaction was frustration she would be left at home 570 00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:01,320 Speaker 1: and on a well to be part of this, and 571 00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:03,800 Speaker 1: this was something that had been her source of joy 572 00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:07,160 Speaker 1: for years. And then she pitched the idea of diving 573 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:10,520 Speaker 1: again to her doctor, and to everybody's surprise, he said 574 00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:12,400 Speaker 1: it was okay as long as she wore a helmet. 575 00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:15,240 Speaker 1: Sonora knew that as long as she could get on 576 00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:19,080 Speaker 1: the horse, the rest of it would be relatively easy. Yeah, 577 00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:21,320 Speaker 1: at that point, wearing helmets had kind of fallen out 578 00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:22,960 Speaker 1: of favor. But she's like, I'll go back to the helmet. 579 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:25,840 Speaker 1: That's not a problem. She was super excited that she 580 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:29,640 Speaker 1: could even possibly do this, So first she practiced climbing 581 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:32,680 Speaker 1: to get used to the ladder again, and al rigged 582 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:34,720 Speaker 1: a rope that ran from the dressing room out to 583 00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:36,920 Speaker 1: the tower so she had a guide if she needed it. 584 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:39,840 Speaker 1: She talks about how she was too prideful to ever 585 00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:42,000 Speaker 1: actually put her hand on the rope. She would just 586 00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:44,560 Speaker 1: feel the fringe of her robe hitting it, and that's 587 00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:47,840 Speaker 1: what she used to guide herself. She wrote, quote, I 588 00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:50,840 Speaker 1: felt that if I rode well, I needed no excuse, 589 00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:52,800 Speaker 1: and that if I needed an excuse, I had no 590 00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:56,160 Speaker 1: business riding. I tried in every possible way to play 591 00:31:56,200 --> 00:32:01,120 Speaker 1: down the melodramatics refusing to allow any publicity. Finally, in 592 00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:04,320 Speaker 1: June of ninety two, she had all her equipment and 593 00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:07,160 Speaker 1: practiced walking to the tower and climbing to the platform, 594 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,200 Speaker 1: and she was ready to try her first jump. The 595 00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:13,320 Speaker 1: days leading up to that first jump, multiple acts that 596 00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:16,920 Speaker 1: were part of the pier show had all had accidents, 597 00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:20,880 Speaker 1: including a fatality in the trapeze act that had taken 598 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:22,640 Speaker 1: the life of a woman who had really been one 599 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:26,920 Speaker 1: of Sonora's close friends. When the primary dive rider was 600 00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:29,960 Speaker 1: suddenly called away, Sonora felt like she had to fill 601 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:32,840 Speaker 1: her spot, and she put aside the fears that had 602 00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:35,480 Speaker 1: been brought up by all those other accidents around her. 603 00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:37,840 Speaker 1: I told her she could call off the show, but 604 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:40,560 Speaker 1: she insisted that she thought she was ready. Yeah, this 605 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:43,000 Speaker 1: is like a super strange time because these were all 606 00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:45,760 Speaker 1: accident had been contracted year after year, and they were 607 00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:49,280 Speaker 1: all normally they were in like clockwork, incredibly safe, so 608 00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:51,920 Speaker 1: it was very strange that several of them had accidents 609 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:55,719 Speaker 1: clustered right together. But she made her first dive on 610 00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:58,479 Speaker 1: that same horse that had led to her injury red Lips, 611 00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:02,680 Speaker 1: and that first dive went perfectly. Sonora immediately returned to 612 00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:06,400 Speaker 1: her old performing schedule and started making multiple dives each day, 613 00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:10,200 Speaker 1: and she did this for eleven more years. She was 614 00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:12,440 Speaker 1: very frank that some of her dives had problems. It 615 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:15,000 Speaker 1: was not always as great as that first return effort, 616 00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:17,520 Speaker 1: and they were actually four times she missed the horse 617 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:21,880 Speaker 1: completely when she tried to mount. Initially, no one but 618 00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:24,880 Speaker 1: her family and fellow performers even knew that she had 619 00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:28,280 Speaker 1: lost her sight. The audience was completely clueless. She had 620 00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:30,320 Speaker 1: learned to basically turn to them and wave like it 621 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:34,080 Speaker 1: was completely normal. They didn't know that she couldn't see them. Eventually, 622 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:36,720 Speaker 1: word did get out that Sonora was blind, and a 623 00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:40,440 Speaker 1: reporter convinced her to let him write a story about it, 624 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:43,000 Speaker 1: and this led to a new path for her. She 625 00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:46,920 Speaker 1: had initially really hated the idea of publicity around her blindness, 626 00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:50,720 Speaker 1: but soon she realized that her story might help other 627 00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:54,400 Speaker 1: people hope in similar situations, and her feelings about it 628 00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:57,880 Speaker 1: really changed entirely. Yes, she after that was very open 629 00:33:57,920 --> 00:33:59,720 Speaker 1: about it and perfectly willing to talk about it with 630 00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:03,920 Speaker 1: the press. But Sonora Webster Carver gave her last show 631 00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:07,640 Speaker 1: in ninety two. At that point, they were not at 632 00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:11,120 Speaker 1: the pier at Atlantic City anymore. They had started touring again, 633 00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:13,560 Speaker 1: but World War Two had made it really, really hard 634 00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:15,440 Speaker 1: to get the workers that they needed in all of 635 00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:18,960 Speaker 1: their various locations to maintain the horses and dig the 636 00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:22,040 Speaker 1: tank and set up the tower. So they decided that 637 00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:25,359 Speaker 1: it was really time to retire. Sonora described it as 638 00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:27,799 Speaker 1: all of them red Lips in her and al being 639 00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:31,120 Speaker 1: put out to pasture. Red Lips lived out the remainder 640 00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:33,880 Speaker 1: of his life in Houston with friends of the Carvers. 641 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:39,120 Speaker 1: The Carvers relocated to New Orleans, Louisiana. They didn't really retire, though, 642 00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:42,400 Speaker 1: I'll take a job as a motel clerk, and Sonora 643 00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:45,520 Speaker 1: became a typist at the Lighthouse for the Blind. Arnett 644 00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:48,440 Speaker 1: married a man named Jacob French, who she had met 645 00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:51,799 Speaker 1: at the pier in nine, and she moved to Pennsylvania. 646 00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:56,040 Speaker 1: In nineteen sixty one, Sonora published an autobiography titled A 647 00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:59,120 Speaker 1: Girl and Five Brave Horses. I used it as one 648 00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:01,760 Speaker 1: of my resources this and it is an absolute delight 649 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:04,600 Speaker 1: of a read because she was a fantastic storyteller and 650 00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:08,480 Speaker 1: she was very funny. In nineteen seventy nine, after working 651 00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:11,080 Speaker 1: as both the typist and an advocate for the blind 652 00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:15,520 Speaker 1: through Lighthouse for the Blind. Carver retired and in a 653 00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:18,080 Speaker 1: Disney film was made that was based on her life 654 00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:22,239 Speaker 1: story called Wild Hearts Can't Be Broken, which is how 655 00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:27,600 Speaker 1: I absolutely already knew Sonora Carber was when Nallie told 656 00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:32,080 Speaker 1: me she was considering this episode. According to her sister Arnette, though, 657 00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:36,120 Speaker 1: when Sonora went to the movie, she was really disappointed 658 00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:39,680 Speaker 1: and how they changed things around. She told our Nette quote, 659 00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:41,879 Speaker 1: the only thing true in it is that I rode 660 00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:44,959 Speaker 1: diving horses, I went blind, and I continued to ride 661 00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:48,200 Speaker 1: for another eleven years. And part of what bothered her 662 00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:51,480 Speaker 1: so much was having her return to horse diving after 663 00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:55,239 Speaker 1: the accident portrayed as this huge challenge in this fear 664 00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:58,160 Speaker 1: that she had to overcome, when really that had been 665 00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:00,319 Speaker 1: all she had wanted to do, and it at her 666 00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:02,400 Speaker 1: really happy to be able to get back into it. 667 00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:06,360 Speaker 1: Sonora also lived long enough to see horse diving finally 668 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:09,440 Speaker 1: and as an entertainment in the nineteen seventies due to 669 00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:14,879 Speaker 1: animal welfare concerns. Well before Sonora Webster joined Dot Carver's show, 670 00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:17,920 Speaker 1: the group was already under a lot of scrutiny from 671 00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:21,840 Speaker 1: the Society for the Prevention of cruelty to animals. According 672 00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:25,560 Speaker 1: to Sonora's account, veterinarians from the spc A would stop 673 00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:28,600 Speaker 1: by to inspect the horses, but they were always satisfied 674 00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:31,840 Speaker 1: with their condition and their care. At one point on 675 00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:35,400 Speaker 1: the tour, this landed Dot Carver in court when an 676 00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:38,640 Speaker 1: order had been issued to stop the performances until an 677 00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:42,160 Speaker 1: investigation could be made. Doc took one of the horses 678 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:44,600 Speaker 1: right to the courthouse to have the judge examine it, 679 00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:47,640 Speaker 1: and the case was thrown out. There was also a 680 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:50,560 Speaker 1: brief effort to bring a diving mule show to the 681 00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:53,439 Speaker 1: Steel Peer in the nineteen nineties that was quickly shut 682 00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:58,279 Speaker 1: down after protests over animal rights. People who participated in 683 00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:01,000 Speaker 1: horse diving are really quick to point out the level 684 00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:03,880 Speaker 1: of care that the Carver horses always received and that 685 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:06,719 Speaker 1: while there were human injuries and even the fatality we 686 00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:10,360 Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, the horses did not get hurt during dives, 687 00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:12,920 Speaker 1: and they would quickly remove a horse from their training 688 00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:16,520 Speaker 1: program if it appeared to have any nervousness or reluctance 689 00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:19,920 Speaker 1: about jumping. There was, though, something we should point out, 690 00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:22,880 Speaker 1: which is that one horse fatality took place in n 691 00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:27,320 Speaker 1: when Doc Carver was still alive, but not on site. 692 00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:31,520 Speaker 1: One of the booked venues insisted on using the open 693 00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:35,200 Speaker 1: water as the landing instead of a tank, and without 694 00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:38,320 Speaker 1: Doc around to say no, the crew went along with it, 695 00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:40,960 Speaker 1: and the horse made the jump just fine, but it 696 00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:44,759 Speaker 1: got disoriented in this open body of water and it 697 00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:48,760 Speaker 1: swam in a panic into deeper water, where it became 698 00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:53,440 Speaker 1: exhausted and drowned. Carver was, by Sonora's account, both angry 699 00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:56,759 Speaker 1: and heartbroken at this and ended the contract and never 700 00:37:56,880 --> 00:38:00,279 Speaker 1: worked with that venue again. Yeah. She described in her 701 00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:02,320 Speaker 1: book that she had never seen him that upset and 702 00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:05,800 Speaker 1: never did again. But regardless of whether the horses and 703 00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:09,120 Speaker 1: Carver Show were happy or not, the time for animal 704 00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:12,080 Speaker 1: acts of this nature is clearly passed, as most animal 705 00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:15,560 Speaker 1: protection groups denounced the use of animals and entertainment. The 706 00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:18,200 Speaker 1: future of circuses, for example, is often in the news, 707 00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:22,000 Speaker 1: and it's likely animal free or switching to virtual animals 708 00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:25,680 Speaker 1: created using projection, which has opened up an entirely new 709 00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:28,320 Speaker 1: area of artistry. If you go hunting for any of 710 00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:31,560 Speaker 1: those videos online, they're quite cool. So a resurgence of 711 00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:34,560 Speaker 1: horse diving seems entirely unlikely, but you can if you 712 00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:37,080 Speaker 1: want to see it find a couple of videos online 713 00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:41,240 Speaker 1: that show Carver and other stunt rider's horse diving Sonora Webster. 714 00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:45,080 Speaker 1: Carver died in September of two thousand three in Pleasantville, 715 00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:48,480 Speaker 1: New Jersey, at the age of nine. Do you have 716 00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:52,040 Speaker 1: some listener mail for us? I do. I actually have 717 00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:54,840 Speaker 1: several pieces of listener mail, because they're all related to 718 00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:58,160 Speaker 1: do Konamoku and they're all pretty short. Um. The first 719 00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:02,080 Speaker 1: one I will say is from our listener, Susan, who 720 00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:05,440 Speaker 1: writes Aloha the behind the scenes episode for Duke Kahanamoku, 721 00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:07,160 Speaker 1: where you talk about that this is your life host 722 00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:10,160 Speaker 1: pronouncing Hawaii with the W sounding like a V. You 723 00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:12,320 Speaker 1: do know that in the Hawaiian language, the V sound 724 00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:14,160 Speaker 1: is the correct way to say the W in the 725 00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:17,640 Speaker 1: word Hawaii, right, because the mistake is not educating people 726 00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:20,120 Speaker 1: about the Hawaiian language and not the host using the 727 00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:24,000 Speaker 1: correct Hawaiian pronunciation of Hawaii. No grimace needed. It sounds 728 00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:26,200 Speaker 1: so much the way like someone would say a Bavarian 729 00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:29,360 Speaker 1: V to me that I think that's why I recoiled 730 00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:31,279 Speaker 1: a bit. I do know that does sometimes subout, but 731 00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:35,000 Speaker 1: I didn't realize that that was normally the preferred pronunciation 732 00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:38,560 Speaker 1: of Hawaii. But this has, of course, um inspired me 733 00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:42,719 Speaker 1: to start taking Hawaiian lessons in du a lingo. I 734 00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:45,640 Speaker 1: have not seen the this is your life that we 735 00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:49,080 Speaker 1: were talking about, um, and so I had interpreted it 736 00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:53,120 Speaker 1: as like the cringe e over pronunciation things people do 737 00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:56,359 Speaker 1: like it is to me, Yeah, as though we were 738 00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:59,560 Speaker 1: talking about Paris and we kept saying Paris every time, 739 00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:03,080 Speaker 1: like that's how that is exactly how it vibes to me. 740 00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:06,800 Speaker 1: But again, I'm not a I'm certainly not a Hawaiian speaker. 741 00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:09,520 Speaker 1: So I don't know if she has seen that footage 742 00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:12,640 Speaker 1: or not. But um uh. If she says I don't 743 00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:17,359 Speaker 1: have to cringe, that's a huge relief. Um. The next 744 00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:21,200 Speaker 1: one is from our listener Alana. Again it's fairly short. 745 00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:25,759 Speaker 1: Uh made me laugh so and it's about laughing, so 746 00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:28,320 Speaker 1: that's great, she writes, High Holly and Tracy, thank you 747 00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:31,160 Speaker 1: for the two parter and mini on the Great Duke Kahanamoku. 748 00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:32,800 Speaker 1: I have to let you know I was listening to 749 00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:34,920 Speaker 1: you while driving and when you mentioned the way he 750 00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:37,800 Speaker 1: messed with journalists about the pronunciation of his name, I 751 00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:41,000 Speaker 1: had to pull over because I was laughing so hard. 752 00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:44,719 Speaker 1: I cried like sobbing tears and kept starting up again, 753 00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:48,200 Speaker 1: just imagining their faces. I haven't liked laughed like that 754 00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:51,000 Speaker 1: in at least a year, So thank you. I also 755 00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:52,440 Speaker 1: love that he woke up from a nap, then a 756 00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:55,080 Speaker 1: few minutes later one an Olympic race, when after I 757 00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:57,080 Speaker 1: wake up, I am useless for about half an hour. 758 00:40:57,239 --> 00:40:59,799 Speaker 1: What a man. Thank you for such a good time. 759 00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:01,719 Speaker 1: I've been a very long time listener and you never 760 00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:07,000 Speaker 1: disappoint Uh. That delighted me. I have anytime. Laughing makes 761 00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:08,759 Speaker 1: you pull over, and thank you for pulling over for 762 00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:12,440 Speaker 1: safety makes me please. Our last one is from Christine, 763 00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:15,600 Speaker 1: who writes, after listening to last week's episodes, I wonder 764 00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:19,759 Speaker 1: if it's possible Duke had an ecilepsy. I don't think so, 765 00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:23,120 Speaker 1: because he didn't seem to have trouble staying awake when 766 00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:27,400 Speaker 1: he was like doing something. Uh. Normally people with an 767 00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:30,759 Speaker 1: ecalepsy just not off when they are not planning to. 768 00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:34,520 Speaker 1: He just seemed to be much more of an advantageous napper, 769 00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:37,839 Speaker 1: like I got a minute, I can lie down, and yeah, 770 00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:42,080 Speaker 1: the only nap in that story that's that raised my 771 00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:44,440 Speaker 1: eyebrows in that regard at all. Was the filling asleep 772 00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:48,640 Speaker 1: underwater one, Yeah, which still to me was more about 773 00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:51,479 Speaker 1: his like his comfort level in the water than something 774 00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:55,400 Speaker 1: that that was potentially an illness. Yeah. He seemed to 775 00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:57,960 Speaker 1: be so completely relaxed that when he was, as you 776 00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:01,880 Speaker 1: recalling that story, he was in expecting the pilings for 777 00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:06,440 Speaker 1: piers under water and had a counterpart above ground that 778 00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:07,719 Speaker 1: would go to the end of the pier and they 779 00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:09,879 Speaker 1: would communicate back and forth, and then that person would 780 00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:11,279 Speaker 1: run to the next one. And I think he thought, 781 00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:13,600 Speaker 1: I'm faster than him. I have a couple of minutes. 782 00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:17,040 Speaker 1: I'm just going to arrest my eyes. Yeah, just as 783 00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:20,600 Speaker 1: a as a general rule on the show, we also 784 00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:24,520 Speaker 1: just try not to armshair diagnose people because we're not doctors, 785 00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:27,600 Speaker 1: and even if we were doctors, the person is not 786 00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:31,640 Speaker 1: here to examine. So I did a little digging after 787 00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:33,520 Speaker 1: this email to see if there had been any like 788 00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:36,840 Speaker 1: medical historians who had made that conjecture, and I definitely 789 00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:40,400 Speaker 1: did not find any. No. Uh, yeah, no one in 790 00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:44,279 Speaker 1: his family ever mentions like this, be like there being 791 00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:46,000 Speaker 1: a moment where they're like, how is he asleep? They 792 00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:48,440 Speaker 1: just knew that he would curl up and go to sleep. Right. 793 00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:51,319 Speaker 1: He felt like he had a couple of minutes. So um, 794 00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:54,520 Speaker 1: thank you though for your question. If you would like 795 00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:58,080 Speaker 1: to write to us about Duke Kahanamoku or any other things, boy, 796 00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:00,880 Speaker 1: I sure like those stories, you can do so at 797 00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:03,520 Speaker 1: History Podcast at iHeart radio dot com. You can also 798 00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:06,000 Speaker 1: find us on social media at miss in History pretty 799 00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:08,080 Speaker 1: much everywhere. If you would like to subscribe to the 800 00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:10,680 Speaker 1: podcast and you haven't gotten around to it yet, no worries, 801 00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:12,719 Speaker 1: You can do that right now if you wish. 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