WEBVTT - Avril Speaks: Uprooted 0:00:00.440 --> 0:00:05.039 This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised. 0:00:12.720 --> 0:00:15.640 When you have a loved one and you find those 0:00:15.720 --> 0:00:20.080 little inconsistencies, It's hard to sleep when you know that 0:00:20.120 --> 0:00:22.239 something is not right. 0:00:26.320 --> 0:00:30.160 I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 0:00:30.240 --> 0:00:32.960 in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the 0:00:33.000 --> 0:00:36.839 podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career, 0:00:37.120 --> 0:00:40.840 research for my many audio and book projects has taken 0:00:40.920 --> 0:00:44.160 me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down 0:00:44.200 --> 0:00:48.920 with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers, 0:00:48.920 --> 0:00:53.360 and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious true 0:00:53.360 --> 0:00:57.120 crime cases. This is about the choices writers make, both 0:00:57.200 --> 0:01:00.160 good and bad, and it's a deep dive into the 0:01:00.280 --> 0:01:06.520 unpublished details behind their stories. In nineteen eighty six, seventeen 0:01:06.560 --> 0:01:09.280 year old Keith Warren was found hanging from a tree 0:01:09.400 --> 0:01:13.400 in Silver Spring, Maryland. His sister wanted answers how did 0:01:13.400 --> 0:01:16.080 he die? It was ruled a suicide, but there were 0:01:16.120 --> 0:01:19.240 so many suspicious things about Keith's death. I talked to 0:01:19.280 --> 0:01:24.440 filmmaker April Speaks about her docuseries Uprooted, which covers Keith's case. 0:01:26.880 --> 0:01:30.160 So when you talk to people about this series, what 0:01:30.240 --> 0:01:34.000 do you say, what's your kind of really quick elevator pitch, 0:01:34.160 --> 0:01:36.119 you know, a couple of sentences of what the story 0:01:36.200 --> 0:01:36.559 is about. 0:01:37.120 --> 0:01:40.800 Typically, the way I would describe this series is to 0:01:40.920 --> 0:01:43.160 kind of talk about what happens. You know, I said, 0:01:43.240 --> 0:01:45.640 you know, there was a seventeen year old young man 0:01:45.640 --> 0:01:48.160 who was killed in a who was found whose body 0:01:48.240 --> 0:01:51.040 was found hanging from a tree in Silver Spring, Maryland 0:01:51.040 --> 0:01:54.040 in nineteen eighty six. But you know, the more I 0:01:54.080 --> 0:01:57.080 think about it, and especially now that I've had some 0:01:57.280 --> 0:02:00.360 time to reflect and kind of sort of be distance 0:02:00.400 --> 0:02:03.240 from it a little bit in terms of time, I 0:02:03.280 --> 0:02:07.120 would really describe it as a story about grief, a 0:02:07.160 --> 0:02:13.359 family's grief and loss, and a mixed bag of unanswered questions. 0:02:14.120 --> 0:02:17.280 And you know, it is essentially about a young man 0:02:17.360 --> 0:02:20.239 named Keith Warne who grew up in Silver Spring, Maryland. 0:02:20.480 --> 0:02:23.880 In nineteen eighty six, he was found hanging from a 0:02:23.919 --> 0:02:28.120 tree and the police immediately ruled it a suicide and 0:02:28.320 --> 0:02:33.760 the family said, no way, this can't be possible. And 0:02:33.800 --> 0:02:37.240 they've been on a quest ever since then to find 0:02:37.440 --> 0:02:43.000 justice for their son, their brother, their nephew, just to 0:02:43.040 --> 0:02:47.080 find answers and ultimately to find their form what they 0:02:47.160 --> 0:02:49.640 would consider to be justice, because I think that, you know, 0:02:49.880 --> 0:02:52.880 justice looks different for different people in terms of what 0:02:52.919 --> 0:02:56.560 that means. And so what they were looking for was 0:02:56.560 --> 0:02:59.000 for the death certificate to be changed because the death 0:02:59.000 --> 0:03:02.359 certificate was ruled suicide on the death certificate and they 0:03:02.400 --> 0:03:07.280 wanted it to be changed from suicide to undetermined because 0:03:07.400 --> 0:03:10.000 there were so many questions. So it wasn't even so 0:03:10.080 --> 0:03:13.360 much that they were, you know, searching for a killer 0:03:13.600 --> 0:03:17.360 or searching for you know, who done it. They just 0:03:17.600 --> 0:03:22.800 wanted a piece of paper changed. So it's a heartbreaking story. 0:03:23.040 --> 0:03:25.480 What was your before we get into the actual story 0:03:25.520 --> 0:03:28.000 about Keith? What was your end? Did you know his 0:03:28.120 --> 0:03:30.560 mom or who did you know? Or did you just 0:03:30.639 --> 0:03:32.480 reach out kind of cold call somebody. 0:03:32.760 --> 0:03:36.400 This story came to me through now this the EP. 0:03:36.720 --> 0:03:41.080 Matt McDonough heard about this story on a podcast and 0:03:41.560 --> 0:03:44.040 reached out to Sherry Warren and just said, this is 0:03:44.400 --> 0:03:45.560 a fascinating story. 0:03:45.600 --> 0:03:47.080 Can I talk to you more about it? 0:03:47.440 --> 0:03:51.320 And became friends with Sherry, and then Matt approached me 0:03:51.440 --> 0:03:54.560 about the story and as someone who used to live 0:03:54.600 --> 0:03:59.640 in Silver Spring, who went to undergrad University of Maryland 0:03:59.720 --> 0:04:02.720 and College Park. Spent a lot of my growing up 0:04:02.800 --> 0:04:04.760 years going back and if I had a lot of 0:04:04.760 --> 0:04:08.720 family in Maryland, so Maryland, that Maryland DC area is 0:04:08.840 --> 0:04:11.920 kind of like a second home to me. And so 0:04:12.000 --> 0:04:15.920 to hear about this story, it piqued my interest. And 0:04:16.080 --> 0:04:21.120 also just hearing about Sherry also just as another black 0:04:21.160 --> 0:04:24.240 woman just trying to find justice for her brother, was 0:04:24.240 --> 0:04:26.880 of interest. So anyways, Matt reached out to me, and 0:04:27.120 --> 0:04:30.400 he and I teamed up and we started developing the 0:04:30.440 --> 0:04:33.080 story and you know, just hearing more from Sherry and 0:04:33.080 --> 0:04:36.120 trying to put pieces together and bring it to life. 0:04:36.440 --> 0:04:39.200 So that's kind of my involvement with this story kind 0:04:39.240 --> 0:04:42.600 of came through through Matt. And like I said, once 0:04:42.640 --> 0:04:46.520 I met Sherry, honestly, like once I heard the story itself, 0:04:46.680 --> 0:04:50.080 it's like just even without meeting Sherry, just the story 0:04:50.080 --> 0:04:52.520 in and of itself. And I think I had actually 0:04:52.600 --> 0:04:56.680 seen some of the photos, the photographs of Keith in 0:04:56.720 --> 0:05:01.440 the woods. I immediately had a bunch of questions which 0:05:01.440 --> 0:05:03.440 we can talk about, but like I just had a 0:05:03.440 --> 0:05:06.880 bunch of questions just off of the photos themselves. And 0:05:06.960 --> 0:05:09.520 like I said, and then after that, then meeting Sherry 0:05:09.839 --> 0:05:13.200 was kind of what I think sort of kickstarted the 0:05:13.240 --> 0:05:13.960 whole journey. 0:05:14.400 --> 0:05:17.200 You know, in my stories, even though I write about 0:05:17.279 --> 0:05:23.920 historical crime and my stories, I'm always searching for the heroes, specifically, 0:05:23.960 --> 0:05:27.359 I'm always on the hunt for female heroes. And we 0:05:27.440 --> 0:05:30.839 have Sherry, and we have his mother. You have women 0:05:30.920 --> 0:05:33.479 who are really in men, but really women who are 0:05:34.040 --> 0:05:36.400 stepping in and I know that they're his family members, 0:05:36.440 --> 0:05:40.760 but they felt so strongly before we jump into Keith's story, 0:05:40.960 --> 0:05:44.040 Can you tell me what your impression of is is 0:05:44.160 --> 0:05:47.840 Why is this so important to them? Is it something 0:05:47.839 --> 0:05:52.320 about saving his reputation? I don't that's not the right phrase, 0:05:52.360 --> 0:05:54.240 but you know, I mean, what is it that drove 0:05:54.360 --> 0:05:55.080 them so much? 0:05:55.640 --> 0:05:59.200 That's a really great question. There's a couple of things 0:05:59.279 --> 0:06:02.159 at play, I think. I think dignity is part of it, 0:06:02.279 --> 0:06:05.680 especially when you know someone so well and you know 0:06:05.720 --> 0:06:08.800 there's always just that nagging you know. It's like it's 0:06:08.800 --> 0:06:12.440 like when someone lies on you, right, Like, I think 0:06:12.440 --> 0:06:15.760 we all have that instinct when someone tells a lie 0:06:15.800 --> 0:06:18.760 about you that you just that you're just like this, 0:06:19.160 --> 0:06:21.240 this is not true about me, And for a lot 0:06:21.240 --> 0:06:24.240 of us, it just continues to nag at you until 0:06:24.279 --> 0:06:27.800 you're able to prove and say, like, this is just 0:06:28.000 --> 0:06:30.880 not the truth. I think that there's a level of 0:06:31.640 --> 0:06:35.400 dignity of a person, that person being Keith Warren, and 0:06:35.520 --> 0:06:39.279 you know your brother, you know your son, you just 0:06:39.440 --> 0:06:42.600 know that this is not something that they would do 0:06:43.480 --> 0:06:47.200 and just want to prove that. I think there's also 0:06:47.680 --> 0:06:54.080 another element of accountability and really wanting the police department 0:06:54.160 --> 0:06:58.120 to take accountability for at the end of the day, 0:06:58.560 --> 0:07:02.760 an investigation that was never conducted. This case would have 0:07:02.800 --> 0:07:07.880 probably been different if an investigation had been done. And 0:07:07.960 --> 0:07:09.760 I think that a big part of it, at the 0:07:09.920 --> 0:07:12.119 at the core of it is that to be so 0:07:12.160 --> 0:07:17.520 sure of yourself to rule it a suicide without an investigation, 0:07:18.040 --> 0:07:21.240 I think that that's something that weighs very heavily on 0:07:21.360 --> 0:07:25.080 the family, that that's something that just needs to be righted, 0:07:25.120 --> 0:07:27.480 it needs to be corrected. And then, like I said, 0:07:27.680 --> 0:07:30.120 you know, in addition to that, it's like we know 0:07:30.280 --> 0:07:34.120 this person and this is just this isn't right, This 0:07:34.160 --> 0:07:37.320 isn't the truth, This isn't the truth of the matter, 0:07:37.800 --> 0:07:40.000 and we don't know what the truth is. You know, 0:07:40.080 --> 0:07:43.280 even to this day, even the family themselves will say 0:07:43.320 --> 0:07:45.520 even Sherry will say, we don't know, we don't know 0:07:45.560 --> 0:07:47.720 what happened. We're not even you know, even when we 0:07:47.760 --> 0:07:50.360 did this series, you know, she would constantly say, I'm 0:07:50.360 --> 0:07:54.679 not looking to find you know, the killer, because we can't. 0:07:55.240 --> 0:07:57.960 There was no investigation, we don't have any evidence. 0:07:58.240 --> 0:08:01.440 In eighty six, gosh, let me mention a story and 0:08:01.480 --> 0:08:02.880 you just tell me what you think, and then I 0:08:02.960 --> 0:08:06.520 promise we will start talking about Keith. So At a 0:08:06.560 --> 0:08:09.760 convention several years ago, I interviewed a man who was 0:08:10.280 --> 0:08:14.200 the father of a geologist named Daniel Robinson. I don't 0:08:14.200 --> 0:08:17.040 know if you've heard about this case in twenty twenty one. 0:08:17.120 --> 0:08:20.400 He was a black man in Arizona who just disappeared 0:08:20.440 --> 0:08:22.760 in the desert. He went to a site, one of 0:08:22.760 --> 0:08:25.320 his work sites, and he vanished. And the reason that 0:08:25.360 --> 0:08:27.360 we were talking about the story besides that you know 0:08:27.400 --> 0:08:31.240 he was a missing person that you know, this happened 0:08:31.480 --> 0:08:34.680 right when the Gabby Patito case was coming out, and 0:08:34.920 --> 0:08:38.520 his father was disturbed because you know, of course how 0:08:38.640 --> 0:08:42.760 much attension that case received while his son went missing 0:08:42.880 --> 0:08:46.480 under mysterious circumstances, and you know, of course, this is 0:08:46.600 --> 0:08:50.200 we're leading up to how much do you think the 0:08:50.679 --> 0:08:54.240 dismissing from the police in Maryland that this was just 0:08:54.280 --> 0:08:57.400 a suicide and this was nothing else had to do 0:08:57.600 --> 0:08:59.920 with the fact that he was a man of color. 0:09:00.480 --> 0:09:04.040 Absolutely, I absolutely think that that had something to do 0:09:04.120 --> 0:09:07.920 with it. And I think that in ruling it a 0:09:07.960 --> 0:09:12.720 suicide was their way of making it go away. And 0:09:12.760 --> 0:09:15.280 I think that they thought they were just gonna, you know, 0:09:15.440 --> 0:09:18.720 come to the scene and just say, you know, write 0:09:18.800 --> 0:09:21.480 something on a piece of paper, and that in no 0:09:21.640 --> 0:09:26.040 time it would be forgotten. And I also think that, 0:09:26.160 --> 0:09:29.400 you know, going back to your question about why have 0:09:29.520 --> 0:09:32.400 they been pursuing why have they been so persistent in this, 0:09:33.240 --> 0:09:36.560 I do think that there's something about erasure, you know, 0:09:37.000 --> 0:09:41.959 of a loved one, that there's just no acknowledgment, there's 0:09:42.000 --> 0:09:46.560 no acknowledgment of the passing of a life, of a 0:09:46.600 --> 0:09:51.240 life gone. And yeah, I do think that the police department, 0:09:51.600 --> 0:09:54.560 the media, there was no media at that time done 0:09:54.600 --> 0:09:56.880 on this case. I think everyone just kind of brushed 0:09:56.880 --> 0:09:59.719 it off. I think labeling it as a suicide was 0:09:59.760 --> 0:10:03.560 an easy way to brush it off without having to 0:10:03.720 --> 0:10:08.120 point fingers at anyone, without having to implicate anyone. He 0:10:08.160 --> 0:10:10.800 acted alone. He did this by himself. He was in 0:10:10.840 --> 0:10:14.640 the woods. This was all him. Case closed, move on. 0:10:15.400 --> 0:10:18.000 So yes, I definitely think that that was part of it. 0:10:18.559 --> 0:10:20.640 And at the same time, I also think that that 0:10:20.800 --> 0:10:23.360 was a big reason why the family was so adamant 0:10:23.880 --> 0:10:26.760 in proving that that could not have been the case. 0:10:26.800 --> 0:10:30.080 There were so many little things, even from from day one, 0:10:30.080 --> 0:10:32.280 there were things that just didn't add up. And I 0:10:32.320 --> 0:10:35.520 don't think when you're when you have a loved one 0:10:35.840 --> 0:10:42.120 and you find those little inconsistencies, it's hard to sleep when, yeah, 0:10:42.160 --> 0:10:44.280 when you know that something is not right. 0:10:44.679 --> 0:10:48.080 Tell me about Keith, kind of start from the beginning. 0:10:48.240 --> 0:10:50.760 What do we know about him? What kind of kid 0:10:50.800 --> 0:10:53.880 is this? He turns into a teenager? What is he like? 0:10:54.360 --> 0:10:55.640 Yeah? So Keith Warren. 0:10:55.960 --> 0:11:00.520 From what we gathered about him through Sherry, through friends 0:11:00.559 --> 0:11:04.559 and artifacts that we found is that Keith was a 0:11:04.600 --> 0:11:09.880 typical teenager. He liked to play basketball, He loved to 0:11:09.920 --> 0:11:13.480 listen to music. You know, he had his favorite rock bands. 0:11:13.480 --> 0:11:15.800 He listened to You Two, he listened to the Police, 0:11:16.280 --> 0:11:18.560 He had friends. He was about to go to college. 0:11:19.040 --> 0:11:22.720 He had just graduated from high school that summer and 0:11:23.040 --> 0:11:24.760 was preparing to go to college. 0:11:24.960 --> 0:11:26.760 He was just a typical teenager. 0:11:26.960 --> 0:11:31.000 He lived in Silver Spring, Maryland, which is right outside 0:11:31.000 --> 0:11:35.880 of the nation's capital, living in a diverse neighborhood, you know, 0:11:35.960 --> 0:11:38.720 being a black family living in what was known as 0:11:38.800 --> 0:11:43.080 Georgian colonies. You know, he some people would describe him 0:11:43.320 --> 0:11:46.800 as different me and you know when they said that, 0:11:46.840 --> 0:11:50.000 they meant he was just kind of the guy that 0:11:50.080 --> 0:11:54.800 knew everybody, that hung out with everyone, but also just 0:11:54.880 --> 0:11:57.720 had his you know, his own way about things and 0:11:57.800 --> 0:12:02.280 his own way of doing things. He was a typical kid, 0:12:02.760 --> 0:12:05.760 you know, atypical kid getting ready to go off to 0:12:05.840 --> 0:12:11.080 college and start his life as an adult and home wife. 0:12:11.200 --> 0:12:14.800 So he lived with his mother. His mother, Mary Cooey, 0:12:15.080 --> 0:12:18.880 raised him and his sisters Sherrie. Their father lived in 0:12:18.960 --> 0:12:21.800 North They were not together. His father lived in North Carolina, 0:12:22.360 --> 0:12:25.160 and they moved, the three of them moved at a 0:12:25.200 --> 0:12:25.680 young age. 0:12:25.760 --> 0:12:27.920 They moved to Silver Spring. 0:12:28.040 --> 0:12:31.160 So he had grown up in the home with Mary 0:12:31.360 --> 0:12:33.920 and with Sherry, and the three of them were like 0:12:33.960 --> 0:12:38.040 the three Musketeers. I mean, they were inseparable. Everyone in 0:12:38.080 --> 0:12:42.719 that community knew Sherry, they knew Keith, they knew Mary, 0:12:42.800 --> 0:12:45.800 you know, and it was a community and they were 0:12:45.840 --> 0:12:48.720 just getting along, you know. But like I said, and 0:12:49.080 --> 0:12:51.720 also I will say too, you know, the three of 0:12:51.760 --> 0:12:54.240 them were close, and they also had a very close 0:12:54.320 --> 0:12:58.800 extended family also, so they had you know, uncles, aunts 0:12:59.000 --> 0:13:01.520 who lived in North Carolina still that they went you 0:13:01.559 --> 0:13:05.000 know to visit very often. Mary had, I know, she 0:13:05.120 --> 0:13:08.080 had a couple of brothers and you know a sister 0:13:08.440 --> 0:13:11.839 as well, sister in New Jersey and a couple of 0:13:11.880 --> 0:13:14.800 brothers in North Carolina. That they were very close as well, 0:13:15.280 --> 0:13:17.600 and they would travel back and forth to visit those 0:13:17.880 --> 0:13:20.400 that family quite often. So they would go back to 0:13:20.440 --> 0:13:24.160 North Carolina. They own you know, acres of land in Behama, 0:13:24.240 --> 0:13:28.040 North Carolina. They would go and spend holidays or you know, 0:13:28.120 --> 0:13:30.760 does at any given moment go there. And then the 0:13:30.760 --> 0:13:32.880 same thing with New Jersey they would go and visit there. 0:13:32.920 --> 0:13:34.720 So they were a tight knit family in terms of 0:13:34.760 --> 0:13:37.920 the three of them, but then also their extended family 0:13:38.000 --> 0:13:39.120 was very close as well. 0:13:39.559 --> 0:13:41.600 So you said he had friends in high school, did 0:13:41.600 --> 0:13:42.880 he date at all? 0:13:43.400 --> 0:13:47.319 There were rumors of you know, he liked this person 0:13:47.440 --> 0:13:50.800 or he liked that person. In all honesty, it's hard 0:13:50.840 --> 0:13:55.760 to get a sense of specifically who was his girlfriend, 0:13:55.800 --> 0:13:57.720 Who was he dating at the time, Who was this? 0:13:57.760 --> 0:13:58.280 Who was that? 0:13:58.559 --> 0:14:01.199 Because none of the friends would talk to us, Sherry 0:14:01.880 --> 0:14:04.600 was not aware of, you know, a specific girlfriend do 0:14:04.640 --> 0:14:07.720 you know that he had. But we did find letters. 0:14:07.760 --> 0:14:09.760 There were letters that you know, some of the girls 0:14:09.800 --> 0:14:12.200 in his class had written him, but all of those 0:14:12.280 --> 0:14:16.120 letters were like very friendly, you know, yeah, close friends, 0:14:16.280 --> 0:14:17.679 but you know, they were all kind of on a 0:14:17.679 --> 0:14:20.600 friendship level. We didn't find any letters that were you know, 0:14:20.880 --> 0:14:22.640 love letters or anything like that. 0:14:23.040 --> 0:14:24.800 So it's kind of it's hard to say. 0:14:24.880 --> 0:14:26.720 I think, you know, we've talked to some people and 0:14:26.760 --> 0:14:29.880 there's like rumors that he may have liked this person 0:14:30.040 --> 0:14:33.840 or liked that person, but it's hard to say definitively 0:14:33.920 --> 0:14:38.160 because you know, no one would talk and those people 0:14:38.240 --> 0:14:41.560 that they said it was still a thing of like, well, 0:14:41.600 --> 0:14:44.080 I think I'm not sure, you know, So there was 0:14:44.160 --> 0:14:47.600 never a definitive girlfriend that he had per se. 0:14:47.960 --> 0:14:50.880 So, I mean, you've just said this twice. Why wouldn't 0:14:50.920 --> 0:14:52.920 they talk to you all? Was it just because it 0:14:52.960 --> 0:14:56.520 was so long ago, or were they uncomfortable about something? 0:14:56.720 --> 0:14:57.240 It's TV. 0:14:57.400 --> 0:14:59.000 I get it. A lot of people don't want to 0:14:59.000 --> 0:14:59.720 be on TV. 0:15:00.560 --> 0:15:04.360 That to me is the number one question. 0:15:05.040 --> 0:15:07.720 Well, you know, I have many questions after doing this case, 0:15:07.760 --> 0:15:11.640 but that, to me was the most baffling thing because 0:15:12.320 --> 0:15:16.360 we talked to some of his friends, his so called friends. 0:15:17.080 --> 0:15:19.480 They would talk to us on the phone, but when 0:15:19.480 --> 0:15:24.160 it came time to do an interview, they wouldn't say anything. 0:15:24.160 --> 0:15:25.880 And even when we talked to them on the phone, 0:15:25.880 --> 0:15:29.880 they were still being cagey, you know, they were still 0:15:29.880 --> 0:15:32.080 being a little bit well, I don't want to say. 0:15:32.280 --> 0:15:32.800 I don't know. 0:15:33.440 --> 0:15:38.200 I feel like someone knows something why they won't speak out. 0:15:38.840 --> 0:15:40.880 I don't know. I don't know. 0:15:41.480 --> 0:15:45.920 I can make theories assumptions as to what that was, 0:15:46.400 --> 0:15:49.120 what people knew and didn't want to say that they 0:15:49.200 --> 0:15:53.479 knew who people knew. In terms of who was involved, 0:15:53.920 --> 0:15:57.280 I think there may have been some names of people 0:15:57.320 --> 0:15:59.680 that were thrown around that. You know, it's like if 0:15:59.720 --> 0:16:02.600 you know such and such was involved, and you don't 0:16:02.640 --> 0:16:05.240 want to say that person's name, then you just decide 0:16:05.240 --> 0:16:07.440 to stay out of it. There was one person we 0:16:07.720 --> 0:16:11.000 spoke to on the phone. They were great, They said, oh, 0:16:11.040 --> 0:16:13.120 I want to speak out and I want to, you know, 0:16:13.200 --> 0:16:17.080 defend Keith's name. When it came time to do the interview, 0:16:17.680 --> 0:16:21.000 she backed out as almost as if someone had gotten 0:16:21.040 --> 0:16:23.840 into their ear and said, oh, don't do that, because 0:16:23.840 --> 0:16:26.480 they were they were very excited to do the interview 0:16:26.480 --> 0:16:29.400 at one point and then all of a sudden, maybe 0:16:29.440 --> 0:16:32.840 it was cold feet, I don't know, but there's also just, 0:16:33.680 --> 0:16:37.160 you know, this feeling like why is there such a 0:16:37.200 --> 0:16:40.320 hesitance to talk? And did she talk to someone else 0:16:40.360 --> 0:16:43.600 that made them feel like they shouldn't talk to us? 0:16:43.840 --> 0:16:45.240 So I don't know. 0:16:45.440 --> 0:16:48.160 I know that he was from a diverse community, but 0:16:48.200 --> 0:16:50.960 I just wonder if there was in that community the 0:16:51.000 --> 0:16:53.840 same kind of sense I get about, of course police, 0:16:53.960 --> 0:16:56.360 you know, not trusting the police perhaps, but also not 0:16:56.560 --> 0:16:59.520 really not trusting the media either. And I wonder if 0:16:59.560 --> 0:17:02.720 that kind of over to you all, even though you 0:17:02.800 --> 0:17:06.200 were reporting on something that was almost forty years old, 0:17:06.240 --> 0:17:08.560 I mean eighty six and this came out in twenty 0:17:08.600 --> 0:17:11.560 twenty two, right on Discovery Plus correct. Yeah, I mean, 0:17:11.600 --> 0:17:14.240 I just wonder if that still kind of sticks with 0:17:14.240 --> 0:17:17.119 with people, and maybe they're not hiding anything, but it's 0:17:17.119 --> 0:17:18.480 sort of like, I'm not going to put myself out 0:17:18.480 --> 0:17:20.320 there because I don't like the way other stories have 0:17:20.359 --> 0:17:21.439 been framed in the past. 0:17:21.880 --> 0:17:25.040 It's totally possible, and you know, I've experienced that we 0:17:25.320 --> 0:17:28.240 you know, I've heard that on this show. On other 0:17:28.280 --> 0:17:30.639 shows I've worked on, I've heard that, I heard a 0:17:30.640 --> 0:17:33.520 similar you know, a similar sentiment. I think with this 0:17:33.760 --> 0:17:38.080 with this series, what we really tried to emphasize was 0:17:38.160 --> 0:17:42.040 that we're not trying to We're not trying to implicate 0:17:42.119 --> 0:17:46.879 anyone again because we can't. We literally just wanted someone 0:17:47.119 --> 0:17:51.040 to come on and pretty much just talk about Keith's character. 0:17:51.760 --> 0:17:55.760 You know, our sort of angle with the Friends was simply, 0:17:56.240 --> 0:17:59.720 can you come on and just say Keith was a 0:17:59.760 --> 0:18:04.120 great tell us a story about one time we were 0:18:04.160 --> 0:18:08.479 by the lockers and Keith said this funny joke, like, 0:18:08.760 --> 0:18:12.240 we don't need to ask you anything because again, because 0:18:12.280 --> 0:18:15.760 we're not trying to quote unquote solve the case on this, 0:18:16.600 --> 0:18:20.280 all we want you to do is tell us what 0:18:20.359 --> 0:18:22.800 was great about Keith. And they would tell us on 0:18:22.840 --> 0:18:24.800 the phone, like Keith was such a great guy, he 0:18:24.960 --> 0:18:26.960 was so great, he was so great, he was so great. 0:18:27.200 --> 0:18:31.919 Just say that same thing on camera, and they wouldn't, So, 0:18:32.200 --> 0:18:35.199 you know, yeah, there is a possibility they may not 0:18:35.240 --> 0:18:39.760 trust the media. We try to mitigate that a bit 0:18:39.840 --> 0:18:42.760 by just saying like, we're not trying to pull a gotcha, 0:18:42.880 --> 0:18:46.440 We're not trying to trap you in anything or make 0:18:46.480 --> 0:18:48.520 it look like you're saying something you're not. 0:18:49.480 --> 0:18:53.520 We just want someone to speak for him. 0:18:53.920 --> 0:18:57.080 You know. It's like he's no longer here. He can't 0:18:57.080 --> 0:18:59.399 speak for himself. We have all these family members who 0:18:59.440 --> 0:19:02.040 can speak from that side, but nobody can tell us 0:19:02.080 --> 0:19:06.560 what Keith was like at school except for his friends. 0:19:07.280 --> 0:19:07.679 I don't know. 0:19:07.760 --> 0:19:09.840 In doing this show, that was one of those things 0:19:09.840 --> 0:19:13.879 that really kind of struck a nerve for me. You know, 0:19:13.920 --> 0:19:17.760 if you imagine Keith being a young man going about 0:19:17.760 --> 0:19:21.520 his business, and you know, you're having these interactions with 0:19:21.600 --> 0:19:24.360 people you think you believe to be your friends. Right, 0:19:24.680 --> 0:19:26.320 And if I were to think about that, if I 0:19:26.320 --> 0:19:28.480 think about the people who are in my circle who 0:19:28.520 --> 0:19:32.000 I call to be my friends, and God forbid, if 0:19:32.000 --> 0:19:34.399 something were to happen to me at any moment, the 0:19:34.920 --> 0:19:37.560 idea that the people that have been in my. 0:19:37.640 --> 0:19:42.000 House, who have eaten my food, have been in my car. 0:19:42.040 --> 0:19:44.280 Shared your life with you, yeah. 0:19:43.840 --> 0:19:48.240 Shared life with me and know me, and when asked 0:19:48.280 --> 0:19:51.239 about my character or asked about who I am, they 0:19:51.320 --> 0:19:54.320 have nothing to say, Like no one will defend me. 0:19:54.600 --> 0:19:58.640 No one will even just speak a good word about 0:19:59.119 --> 0:20:02.639 that one time I at April's house and we played 0:20:02.760 --> 0:20:06.840 checkers or whatever, Like, no one has anything to say. Yeah, 0:20:07.080 --> 0:20:09.480 I just found that to be quite disturbing. 0:20:12.760 --> 0:20:15.920 Take me to wherever we need to go to set 0:20:16.000 --> 0:20:20.080 up this awful event that happens. How far back do 0:20:20.160 --> 0:20:21.760 we go to kind of set this scene up? 0:20:22.200 --> 0:20:25.679 Well, I think we can start in July of nineteen 0:20:25.680 --> 0:20:27.560 eighty six. I want to say it was the end 0:20:27.560 --> 0:20:29.760 of July. I think it was July twenty eighth, I 0:20:29.800 --> 0:20:32.320 believe was the date. It was a Tuesday for sure. 0:20:33.040 --> 0:20:35.760 You know, Keith was at home with his sister and 0:20:35.800 --> 0:20:38.520 his Actually he was at home with his mother because 0:20:38.560 --> 0:20:41.680 his sister was in New Jersey at the time visiting 0:20:41.680 --> 0:20:45.080 her aunt that I spoke about earlier. Keith gets a call, 0:20:45.520 --> 0:20:48.760 he talks, he hangs up, and he leaves the house. 0:20:48.840 --> 0:20:50.840 He tells his mother he's gonna go hang out with 0:20:50.880 --> 0:20:54.560 some friends, and he leaves with his backpack. He's wearing 0:20:54.560 --> 0:20:57.480 a pair of shorts and a T shirt. He always 0:20:57.520 --> 0:21:02.840 wore these brown Timberland boots that he wore twenty four 0:21:02.880 --> 0:21:05.280 to seven. He wore them all the time. So it's 0:21:05.359 --> 0:21:07.520 kind of like his signature. Look, but he grabs all 0:21:07.600 --> 0:21:10.480 that and he leaves the house. And that's on Tuesday. 0:21:11.400 --> 0:21:16.560 Wednesday comes there's no Keith. You know, Mary realizes that 0:21:17.080 --> 0:21:19.880 Keith did not come home, as I think, as any 0:21:19.920 --> 0:21:23.000 mother would. She starts to panic a bit and she 0:21:23.119 --> 0:21:26.000 calls the police, and the police tell her that she 0:21:26.200 --> 0:21:30.040 cannot file a missing person's report until he's been gone 0:21:30.119 --> 0:21:31.240 for forty eight hours. 0:21:31.720 --> 0:21:34.080 So she says, okay, she goes back. 0:21:34.560 --> 0:21:38.560 It was July thirty first, nineteen eighty six, when Keith's 0:21:38.640 --> 0:21:42.439 body was found. From what I remember from the case, 0:21:42.560 --> 0:21:45.720 there was a woman that was walking through the woods 0:21:46.240 --> 0:21:50.919 and found his body and called nine one one. She 0:21:51.000 --> 0:21:53.320 found his body, you know, in the woods and called 0:21:53.400 --> 0:21:58.720 nine one one. Now, apparently when the call was made 0:21:58.800 --> 0:22:01.280 it was stated that this is according to the EMT 0:22:01.480 --> 0:22:04.359 who arrived on the scene. When the call was made, 0:22:04.560 --> 0:22:06.399 it was said that there was a body found in 0:22:06.400 --> 0:22:09.919 the basement. So when the EMT came to the house 0:22:10.359 --> 0:22:15.080 where the call came from, there was commotion. Oh no, no, no, no, 0:22:15.160 --> 0:22:18.520 it wasn't in the basement. The body was in the woods. 0:22:18.520 --> 0:22:20.920 It was found in the woods, and you know, one 0:22:20.960 --> 0:22:23.760 person came to the door and there was a scuffle, 0:22:24.359 --> 0:22:27.040 and you know, the EMT is like, okay, well wherever 0:22:27.080 --> 0:22:28.840 the body is, like, take us to the body. We 0:22:29.000 --> 0:22:31.120 have to you know, you know, we need to do 0:22:31.160 --> 0:22:34.119 these procedures, like we have to get there right away. 0:22:34.280 --> 0:22:35.920 So the one person says, no, I don't want to 0:22:35.960 --> 0:22:38.439 take you back there. Then another person comes to the door, 0:22:38.680 --> 0:22:40.720 I can take you back there, but they were on crutches, 0:22:40.800 --> 0:22:42.600 so they were gonna go too slow. 0:22:42.840 --> 0:22:44.919 Someone needs to take us to the body. 0:22:45.040 --> 0:22:45.359 Yeah. 0:22:45.400 --> 0:22:48.080 A third person comes and they say, okay, I'll take you. 0:22:48.160 --> 0:22:51.439 They take them to the woods and this is where 0:22:51.640 --> 0:22:56.719 they found Keith's body. Within this time, the police arrived 0:22:57.080 --> 0:23:00.800 and it was determined, and they called the coroner and 0:23:01.560 --> 0:23:05.600 determined this to be a suicide. Mind you, they made 0:23:05.600 --> 0:23:09.119 this determination on the scene and the family was not 0:23:09.119 --> 0:23:14.680 notified until several hours after this. So while all this 0:23:14.720 --> 0:23:18.800 is going on, Mary Cooey is at work in I 0:23:18.800 --> 0:23:21.639 believe she worked in Bethesda, Maryland. 0:23:21.680 --> 0:23:22.640 If I remember. 0:23:22.440 --> 0:23:25.400 Correctly, this is his mother, right, This is his mother, 0:23:25.600 --> 0:23:25.959 got it? 0:23:26.440 --> 0:23:27.600 This is his mother Mary. 0:23:28.040 --> 0:23:32.480 So Keith had several forms of identification on him. But 0:23:32.560 --> 0:23:35.680 yet and still she was not notified until several hours later. 0:23:35.720 --> 0:23:38.600 I think we read it was like seven hours later 0:23:38.800 --> 0:23:42.679 that she was notified that all of this happened. Apparently, 0:23:43.160 --> 0:23:46.600 the officer went to the house, there was no one there. 0:23:46.680 --> 0:23:48.240 Like I said, obviously she was at work. They went 0:23:48.240 --> 0:23:51.959 to a neighbor's house and the neighbor said, well, Mary's 0:23:52.000 --> 0:23:53.320 not at home, she's at work. 0:23:53.359 --> 0:23:54.879 Here, I can give you her work number. 0:23:55.480 --> 0:23:58.399 She even offered, like, you can use my telephone, you 0:23:58.400 --> 0:24:00.000 can call her at her job. 0:24:00.359 --> 0:24:01.600 The officer did not call. 0:24:01.920 --> 0:24:05.840 The officer did come to Mary's job many several hours 0:24:05.920 --> 0:24:10.359 later and notified her about what had happened. You know, 0:24:10.440 --> 0:24:14.840 I think the officer said to Mary that he committed suicide. 0:24:14.880 --> 0:24:17.719 And from my reading of the events, it sounds like 0:24:17.800 --> 0:24:20.960 the officer said to Mary, is there any reason why 0:24:21.000 --> 0:24:24.480 you think your son may have ended his own life? 0:24:24.520 --> 0:24:27.520 And in her I'm even at a loss for words, 0:24:27.520 --> 0:24:30.320 like I can't even imagine what's going through her mind 0:24:30.440 --> 0:24:35.720 when you're at work and you're being told this information. Confusion, hurt, anger, sadness, 0:24:35.760 --> 0:24:36.440 all of the things. 0:24:36.520 --> 0:24:37.720 Panic is probably the big one. 0:24:37.760 --> 0:24:40.879 Yeah, panic, I mean all of it, So she says, 0:24:40.960 --> 0:24:43.919 I mean, I don't We had an argument about a car. 0:24:44.160 --> 0:24:46.920 You know, he was like buying a car and they 0:24:46.960 --> 0:24:50.640 had some little, you know, skirmish about a car. And 0:24:50.720 --> 0:24:54.679 so the officer took that and said, oh, well, this 0:24:54.760 --> 0:24:56.760 must have been and I believe that they wrote that 0:24:56.840 --> 0:24:59.720 in the report, like, oh, this is he ended his 0:24:59.800 --> 0:25:04.359 life after an argument with his parents about car. But 0:25:04.520 --> 0:25:07.520 mind you that he had already declared it a suicide 0:25:07.600 --> 0:25:12.520 even after or sorry, before that conversation with Mary. So 0:25:12.600 --> 0:25:16.119 at any rate, Mary comes home. They called the coroner 0:25:16.480 --> 0:25:18.879 ruled it a suicide, and they also ordered the body 0:25:18.960 --> 0:25:22.879 to be taken to Collin's funeral home in Silver Spring. 0:25:23.200 --> 0:25:25.560 So Mary calls the funeral home or goes to the 0:25:25.560 --> 0:25:28.359 funeral home. She also calls her brother in North Carolina 0:25:28.400 --> 0:25:31.120 and asks him to come help, you know, just come 0:25:31.200 --> 0:25:33.880 help her figure all of this out. And the funeral 0:25:33.920 --> 0:25:35.800 home tells them that they can't see the body. This 0:25:35.840 --> 0:25:37.679 is that night, that Thursday night. They tell them that 0:25:37.680 --> 0:25:41.560 they can't see the body because it's decomposed and they 0:25:41.600 --> 0:25:44.040 have to prep the body so they can't see it. 0:25:44.160 --> 0:25:46.240 They wanted to identify the body. They said, you can't 0:25:46.240 --> 0:25:47.840 see it. You have to come back in the morning. 0:25:48.520 --> 0:25:51.120 They go back in the morning. They let them see 0:25:51.160 --> 0:25:52.160 the body briefly. 0:25:52.600 --> 0:25:52.800 You know. 0:25:52.880 --> 0:25:56.480 According to the uncle Pete Harris, there was nothing like 0:25:56.520 --> 0:25:59.880 decomposed about his body that we couldn't look at him, 0:26:00.200 --> 0:26:02.600 touch him, you know, or just you know, spend a 0:26:02.640 --> 0:26:07.520 little time. At any rate, they gave them supposedly what 0:26:07.920 --> 0:26:11.560 was Keith's belongings, so they handed them the rope. 0:26:11.960 --> 0:26:12.360 Geez. 0:26:12.560 --> 0:26:16.479 Really, yeah, it's terrible. They gave him the rope and 0:26:16.560 --> 0:26:19.520 his boots and a couple of other artifacts that he had, 0:26:20.000 --> 0:26:22.159 you know, in his pockets or what heavy id and 0:26:22.200 --> 0:26:24.720 that kind of thing. They gave that to him. It's 0:26:24.720 --> 0:26:28.400 a sad situation all around, and everyone is grieving obviously. 0:26:28.520 --> 0:26:30.760 Like I said, there's there's these questions that are going 0:26:30.800 --> 0:26:34.359 through their head where they're saying something about this doesn't 0:26:34.359 --> 0:26:37.320 feel right a black man in the woods, you know. 0:26:37.359 --> 0:26:40.240 Even according to Dallas Lip, who was the EMT on 0:26:40.320 --> 0:26:43.440 the scene, he said that when he arrived at the scene, 0:26:43.520 --> 0:26:45.720 it almost looked like Keith was sitting down. 0:26:45.800 --> 0:26:47.679 You know. They said that he jumped off of a log. 0:26:47.880 --> 0:26:51.160 There was no log that was anywhere in that vicinity. 0:26:51.480 --> 0:26:54.040 So there were already these things that were sort of 0:26:54.280 --> 0:26:57.639 like red flags. But the family at that time, they 0:26:57.680 --> 0:27:01.800 are these red flags and they're going something doesn't feel right. 0:27:02.080 --> 0:27:04.520 But Mary Cooey, I think, you know, she had always 0:27:04.560 --> 0:27:07.320 been trying to find out what was the you know, 0:27:07.359 --> 0:27:10.920 what really happened. But there was also this part of them, 0:27:11.119 --> 0:27:13.080 you know, maybe not so much for Mary, but I 0:27:13.080 --> 0:27:15.520 think for some people in the family in the community, 0:27:15.880 --> 0:27:18.720 it was like, I guess that's what happened, you know, 0:27:18.920 --> 0:27:21.280 and you know, let's move on. Definitely for the police department, 0:27:21.400 --> 0:27:23.280 they thought that, you know, that was the end of 0:27:23.320 --> 0:27:27.119 the story. So Mary spent the next few years just 0:27:27.560 --> 0:27:30.640 trying to act on that instinct that something was not right. 0:27:31.240 --> 0:27:36.240 Cut forward to nineteen ninety two. Sherry and Mary Cooey 0:27:36.280 --> 0:27:39.320 are at home and they get a knock on the 0:27:39.359 --> 0:27:42.359 door and they go into the door and there is 0:27:42.400 --> 0:27:46.680 an anonymous envelope with no return address, but it's just 0:27:46.720 --> 0:27:50.000 an envelope left on their door, and their copies of 0:27:50.080 --> 0:27:53.639 the photographs of Keith on that day when he was 0:27:53.720 --> 0:27:55.760 found hanging from the tree. 0:27:55.960 --> 0:27:58.160 They had seen those, right, the police had showed them or. 0:27:58.119 --> 0:28:02.200 No, no, nuts they had not seen those pictures. 0:28:02.320 --> 0:28:04.080 Awful, So they get these. 0:28:04.040 --> 0:28:10.320 Photos and immediately a number of additional alarm bells start 0:28:10.400 --> 0:28:14.000 to ring out, one being his shoes. He has on 0:28:14.040 --> 0:28:17.160 a pair of white tennis shoes. Whose shoes are these? 0:28:17.520 --> 0:28:18.560 Yeah, not the boots. 0:28:18.720 --> 0:28:21.160 Not the boots. Well, because then they had already given 0:28:21.200 --> 0:28:23.639 back the boots and they said these are this is 0:28:23.720 --> 0:28:26.280 what he had on the day of the that he 0:28:26.400 --> 0:28:29.199 was found. But you're looking at these photos and he 0:28:29.320 --> 0:28:32.440 has on white tennis shoes. He has on clothes. It's 0:28:32.440 --> 0:28:35.200 the middle of July. He has on this long sleeve shirt. 0:28:35.400 --> 0:28:37.680 It doesn't even fit him. He left the house in 0:28:37.720 --> 0:28:39.800 a pair of shorts. Now he has on a pair 0:28:39.800 --> 0:28:44.880 of jeans and a button down long sleeve shirt. There's 0:28:44.920 --> 0:28:48.440 a person standing in the background. He's sitting on the floor. 0:28:48.800 --> 0:28:52.120 You can see the ties of the rope and the 0:28:52.160 --> 0:28:55.760 way that it's tied. Even the branch that he's supposedly 0:28:55.840 --> 0:28:59.200 hanging from wouldn't support him in order for him to 0:28:59.240 --> 0:29:01.280 be able to hang him. So so a lot more 0:29:01.360 --> 0:29:06.280 inconsistency started coming out through those photos, And honestly, I 0:29:06.320 --> 0:29:10.080 think that the photos are kind of what reopened this 0:29:10.240 --> 0:29:15.360 case in the eyes of the Warren family, but also 0:29:15.440 --> 0:29:18.000 in terms of the media. That's when the media kind 0:29:18.000 --> 0:29:22.040 of then started to take notice and started reporting on 0:29:22.080 --> 0:29:24.360 this incident, because at that time, in nineteen eighty six, 0:29:24.400 --> 0:29:27.160 there was no report. We didn't find any there's no 0:29:27.320 --> 0:29:30.920 news stories at all about what happened to Keith in 0:29:31.000 --> 0:29:34.360 nineteen eighty six. So when this happened with the photographs, 0:29:34.840 --> 0:29:37.640 this is what kind of opened up the case, reopened 0:29:37.680 --> 0:29:41.760 the case, and started this chain reaction of a slew 0:29:41.800 --> 0:29:45.080 of other events that took place of this family trying 0:29:45.120 --> 0:29:48.640 to get to the bottom of what happened and essentially 0:29:48.680 --> 0:29:52.240 trying to get the Montgomery County Police Department to admit 0:29:52.560 --> 0:29:55.760 that it was mishandled in the beginning because there was 0:29:55.840 --> 0:30:00.640 no autopsy. There was no autopsy conducted, And at the 0:30:00.720 --> 0:30:03.080 end of the day, I feel like all of the 0:30:03.240 --> 0:30:05.640 issues and all of the red flags and all of 0:30:05.640 --> 0:30:08.720 the question marks surrounding this case come back to that 0:30:09.480 --> 0:30:14.280 there was no autopsy, there was no investigation conducted at 0:30:14.280 --> 0:30:18.320 the scene at all, and there's nothing to go back. 0:30:18.160 --> 0:30:24.280 To when you spoke to Mary and Sherry, Were those 0:30:24.320 --> 0:30:25.920 your two main sources, do you think? 0:30:26.400 --> 0:30:28.680 So we didn't speak to Mary because she had died 0:30:28.840 --> 0:30:31.880 passed away in two thousand and nine. Sorry, so she 0:30:32.120 --> 0:30:37.320 died not knowing what was happening, but Mary Kuei kept 0:30:37.400 --> 0:30:43.200 such detailed notes of everything. When we first came on 0:30:43.240 --> 0:30:46.080 the scene and we first went to Sherry's house, Sherry 0:30:46.160 --> 0:30:50.640 has in her basement boxes and boxes of documents. 0:30:51.240 --> 0:30:53.840 It's documents upon documents upon documents. 0:30:54.280 --> 0:30:59.080 Every single letter she wrote, every single you know, correspondence, 0:30:59.240 --> 0:31:01.760 every single phone call. 0:31:01.760 --> 0:31:04.160 Even she documented everything. 0:31:04.920 --> 0:31:09.520 So I kind of felt like I had Mary's voice 0:31:09.880 --> 0:31:13.000 through her writings and through all of the things that 0:31:13.040 --> 0:31:16.600 she saved. And so between that and then some of 0:31:16.600 --> 0:31:18.480 the people who were in the series that knew her, 0:31:18.600 --> 0:31:22.160 like Darryl Davis, Dell Walters, you know, one of her 0:31:22.320 --> 0:31:25.720 close friends also who doesn't appear in the dock, but 0:31:26.120 --> 0:31:28.280 she was someone that we talked to a lot. So 0:31:28.640 --> 0:31:30.680 it was like, through all of these accounts, this is 0:31:30.760 --> 0:31:33.840 kind of how we pieced together Mary's point of view 0:31:33.880 --> 0:31:35.720 the best that we could. But a big part of 0:31:35.720 --> 0:31:40.440 that came through Sherry. So our big source of information 0:31:40.760 --> 0:31:46.280 was Sherry, and also Mary's detailed documentation of everything that 0:31:46.320 --> 0:31:48.680 had taken place starting in nineteen eighty six. 0:31:49.320 --> 0:31:51.320 So, I mean, I know that you're looking at these 0:31:51.360 --> 0:31:55.640 photos and it is so odd based on what Mary 0:31:55.720 --> 0:31:57.680 had said, and what Sherry was confirming to you, I 0:31:57.680 --> 0:32:01.040 mean clothes and all of that stuff. And you're still 0:32:01.440 --> 0:32:04.240 evaluating as you're doing this series, you still have to evaluate, 0:32:04.640 --> 0:32:07.959 you know, as in journalism, we're having to evaluate both sides. 0:32:08.640 --> 0:32:13.360 Do you feel like Sherry was open with you and 0:32:13.400 --> 0:32:17.400 the crew one hundred percent about any kind of red 0:32:17.440 --> 0:32:20.720 flags besides this dumb fight. It sounds like any kind 0:32:20.760 --> 0:32:24.880 of red flags coming from Keith about any kind of 0:32:25.000 --> 0:32:27.600 mental health struggles or anything like that. I mean, did 0:32:27.600 --> 0:32:30.400 you feel like, Okay, she is putting it all out there, 0:32:30.560 --> 0:32:34.560 or was this rainbows and bunny rabbits in his life 0:32:34.680 --> 0:32:35.320 was perfect? 0:32:35.840 --> 0:32:37.160 No, not at all. 0:32:37.360 --> 0:32:39.440 That was one of the first things that Sherry said 0:32:39.480 --> 0:32:42.560 to us, is that you know she could accept any 0:32:42.560 --> 0:32:42.760 of that. 0:32:43.160 --> 0:32:45.840 Cherry was like, I'm not perfect, He's not. 0:32:46.080 --> 0:32:48.640 You know. There was never a moment where she was 0:32:48.640 --> 0:32:52.520 trying to paint this picture that he was Saint Keith, 0:32:53.680 --> 0:32:56.600 you know, or anyone from that for that matter. But 0:32:56.840 --> 0:33:01.280 she would always say, but even that doesn't take away 0:33:01.320 --> 0:33:05.320 from the fact that there was no autopsy conducted. Yeah, 0:33:05.400 --> 0:33:08.280 do you know what I mean? So like, even even 0:33:08.360 --> 0:33:12.200 if he did, that can be any number of speculations 0:33:12.280 --> 0:33:16.240 about what Keith did, who Keith was, who he dated, 0:33:16.880 --> 0:33:19.560 and that stuff comes up, you know, even even amongst 0:33:19.600 --> 0:33:23.320 ourselves of like maybe he was dating somebody he shouldn't 0:33:23.360 --> 0:33:26.560 have dated, and they were coming after her. 0:33:27.080 --> 0:33:27.520 Whatever. 0:33:27.680 --> 0:33:30.520 You know, there's so many things. Maybe there maybe he 0:33:30.600 --> 0:33:33.960 had a mental break, maybe there's there's so many roads 0:33:34.680 --> 0:33:37.920 you could go down. But it doesn't negate the fact 0:33:38.520 --> 0:33:42.440 that there was no autopsy, that there was no investigation, 0:33:43.000 --> 0:33:46.440 and so Sherry, So Sherry was very open about that, like, 0:33:46.680 --> 0:33:50.080 you know, okay, I'll take that if something is found 0:33:50.520 --> 0:33:53.280 he did something, or there was an argument or something. 0:33:53.760 --> 0:33:58.120 How does that negate doing a proper investigation on how 0:33:58.160 --> 0:33:58.680 he died? 0:33:59.040 --> 0:34:02.240 Right? Yeah? And I think that's such an interesting takeaway because, 0:34:02.320 --> 0:34:05.240 especially when I talk to people about missing people or 0:34:05.320 --> 0:34:08.880 unsolved cases, they are making that big point, we want justice, 0:34:08.920 --> 0:34:11.160 we want the person behind bars. We know this was murder, 0:34:11.480 --> 0:34:14.760 and so it's interesting that this is not how Sherry 0:34:14.800 --> 0:34:17.880 and her mother felt. So let me just talk about 0:34:17.920 --> 0:34:20.080 a little bit about forensics and your impression of all 0:34:20.120 --> 0:34:23.760 of this. This bizarro nine to one one call where 0:34:23.800 --> 0:34:27.560 the EMS thought that there was a dead body in 0:34:27.640 --> 0:34:30.879 a basement and as a reminder to listeners eighty six 0:34:31.000 --> 0:34:33.800 no cell phones, So this is a slower process. You 0:34:33.800 --> 0:34:35.880 you know, call nine one one and you're trying to 0:34:35.880 --> 0:34:37.760 get a hold of Mary, and if she's in the bathroom, 0:34:37.880 --> 0:34:39.400 she's going to miss that call and all of that. 0:34:40.080 --> 0:34:43.560 So there's this call saying that there's a body in 0:34:43.560 --> 0:34:46.719 the basement, that that's what they heard. Did anybody in 0:34:46.719 --> 0:34:51.400 that house who seemed very wishy washy with ems person 0:34:51.440 --> 0:34:53.200 on the crutches and you know, we don't want to 0:34:53.200 --> 0:34:56.600 go back out there, did anybody come under suspicion or 0:34:56.640 --> 0:34:59.120 do you feel like there was any reason that this 0:34:59.360 --> 0:34:59.920 was odd? 0:35:00.400 --> 0:35:04.400 Absolutely? Absolutely, I do think it was odd. One of 0:35:04.440 --> 0:35:10.240 the people in that house knew Keith. Yeah, and so yeah, 0:35:10.440 --> 0:35:13.560 I wonder if there was some kind of flub there 0:35:13.880 --> 0:35:16.799 with saying, oh basement, oh woods, you know what did 0:35:16.800 --> 0:35:20.400 they know? You know what, what does this person know 0:35:20.560 --> 0:35:24.160 that made them flub in that way? But yeah, they 0:35:24.320 --> 0:35:28.800 one of the people in that house knew Keith. It 0:35:28.880 --> 0:35:32.000 was very bizarre. And even even the whole the way 0:35:32.040 --> 0:35:37.120 that the EMT describes that scene just is a red 0:35:37.160 --> 0:35:39.879 flag to me, like, why is there such a skifuffle 0:35:40.160 --> 0:35:43.160 about who's gonna take him to the body, and who 0:35:43.480 --> 0:35:46.439 who called? And who's gonna take him? Like why why 0:35:46.560 --> 0:35:50.800 is this such a somebody called? You know who called? 0:35:51.320 --> 0:35:54.640 And just just take them there? Like, whoever called? Just 0:35:54.719 --> 0:35:58.000 take them there? Like why is this such a you know, 0:35:58.040 --> 0:36:00.480 will you take them? No, you're taken you And I 0:36:00.480 --> 0:36:04.400 I'm sure it is traumatic in its own way to 0:36:04.840 --> 0:36:08.560 be walking through the woods and you know, find this 0:36:08.719 --> 0:36:09.359 body there. 0:36:09.760 --> 0:36:10.200 You know what. 0:36:10.280 --> 0:36:13.640 We interviewed Rodney Kendall, who was who also lived in 0:36:13.680 --> 0:36:17.000 Georgian colonies and was called to to come in and 0:36:16.800 --> 0:36:19.520 and and identify this body, you know, while Keith was 0:36:19.520 --> 0:36:22.600 still in the woods. And I think he's still traumatized 0:36:22.719 --> 0:36:26.040 to this day, Like it's it's got to do something 0:36:26.080 --> 0:36:29.399 to you to see that. So I can imagine even 0:36:29.440 --> 0:36:32.120 when the EMT shows up at the door, whoever, you know, 0:36:32.160 --> 0:36:34.520 the person who made the initial phone call, I'm sure 0:36:34.560 --> 0:36:36.000 there's a level of like, I don't want to go 0:36:36.080 --> 0:36:39.560 back and see that, right, but it's still it still 0:36:39.560 --> 0:36:43.000 feels a little weird that you made this call and 0:36:43.120 --> 0:36:46.759 you can't remember if it's brasement or woods, and you know, 0:36:46.840 --> 0:36:48.840 and now there's this whole back and forth about who's 0:36:48.840 --> 0:36:51.680 gonna who's gonna go? You know, it just seems really 0:36:52.080 --> 0:36:54.879 especially if you've come across this body and you know that, 0:36:55.200 --> 0:36:56.960 you know you have the e MT here, there's a 0:36:57.160 --> 0:37:00.560 possibility that maybe a life could be saved, maybe, and 0:37:00.600 --> 0:37:03.399 like you're spending time, you know, going back and forth 0:37:03.440 --> 0:37:05.040 about who's going to lead the way. 0:37:05.360 --> 0:37:07.800 A couple more questions about the folks in the house. 0:37:07.960 --> 0:37:11.440 Did you figure out what the relationship was between the 0:37:11.480 --> 0:37:13.680 person in the house and Keith? Was just this an 0:37:13.680 --> 0:37:16.680 acquaintance from around the area? Yeah, No, one close to 0:37:16.760 --> 0:37:18.960 him then, yeah, yeah, yeah, it was more of an acquaintance. 0:37:19.000 --> 0:37:19.480 They weren't. 0:37:19.560 --> 0:37:21.839 They weren't like, you know, close friends. It was more 0:37:21.880 --> 0:37:24.719 of just an acquaintance from from around the way. And 0:37:24.760 --> 0:37:27.360 I think that they they may have had like mutual friends, 0:37:27.400 --> 0:37:29.719 so you know, Keith may have been closer friends with 0:37:29.760 --> 0:37:32.600 someone who knew him, but it was it was more 0:37:32.760 --> 0:37:33.560 just an acquaintance. 0:37:34.040 --> 0:37:36.560 So he did not tell his mother or his sister 0:37:36.719 --> 0:37:39.359 who the friends were. When he left, he just said 0:37:39.360 --> 0:37:41.440 I'm going, and that was normal for Keith. He was 0:37:41.480 --> 0:37:43.320 just saying, I'm bouncing out of here, I'll see you 0:37:43.360 --> 0:37:45.359 a little bit, I'll be home before Dorric or something. 0:37:45.440 --> 0:37:45.640 Yeah. 0:37:45.680 --> 0:37:48.440 No, yeah, he didn't tell. He didn't say who he 0:37:48.520 --> 0:37:51.600 was going with. He just left the house. I mean 0:37:51.640 --> 0:37:55.399 he had kind of a circle of friends, if you will, 0:37:55.480 --> 0:37:58.319 like Sherry tells the story about. You know, they were 0:37:58.360 --> 0:38:02.560 always over the house that would just come over and eat, 0:38:02.680 --> 0:38:06.279 play games, or watch TV or whatever. But no, to 0:38:06.400 --> 0:38:09.680 our knowledge, he did not say I'm going to such 0:38:09.719 --> 0:38:11.839 and such as house or anything like that. 0:38:12.120 --> 0:38:13.960 So I don't know if you know the answer to this. 0:38:14.200 --> 0:38:17.759 But did they know what the distance was between this 0:38:17.880 --> 0:38:21.600 woman who found his body between her house and the woods? 0:38:21.719 --> 0:38:23.160 How long of a walk was this? Do you have 0:38:23.200 --> 0:38:23.680 any idea? 0:38:24.040 --> 0:38:27.960 It's a little hard to say because, especially in us 0:38:28.040 --> 0:38:31.959 investigating it now, that area of woods is now it's 0:38:32.000 --> 0:38:33.640 built up, it's a housing development. 0:38:33.760 --> 0:38:37.440 Now, what I was getting at is if something happened 0:38:37.480 --> 0:38:39.680 in the basement and we don't know what happened. You know, 0:38:39.719 --> 0:38:42.680 he's wearing odd clothes. This is this a nighttime thing? 0:38:42.760 --> 0:38:44.919 I can't remember when you what's the timeframe that we're 0:38:44.920 --> 0:38:47.479 talking about when he was discovered versus when he left 0:38:47.520 --> 0:38:49.120 the house, When was up. 0:38:49.200 --> 0:38:50.520 He was he left at night? 0:38:50.600 --> 0:38:53.960 He or it was almost night when he left and 0:38:54.040 --> 0:38:56.279 when his body was found, I want to say it 0:38:56.400 --> 0:39:00.320 was more morning of Thursday, like that Thursday. So he 0:39:00.400 --> 0:39:02.960 left on a Tuesday, and then that Thursday was when 0:39:02.960 --> 0:39:04.919 he was found Thursday, the thirty first. 0:39:05.200 --> 0:39:07.440 Is this a rural part of the woods? I mean, 0:39:07.480 --> 0:39:09.719 how could he not have been obviously not off a 0:39:09.760 --> 0:39:13.239 major trail, otherwise somebody would have seen him right right. 0:39:13.840 --> 0:39:17.640 Again, it's it's hard to get a sense of what 0:39:17.800 --> 0:39:21.200 those woods look like at that time. But from what 0:39:21.200 --> 0:39:23.560 I from what I gathered from the interviews that we've done, 0:39:23.640 --> 0:39:26.000 it doesn't It didn't sound like it was he was 0:39:26.040 --> 0:39:28.120 like deep in the woods, Like he was like back 0:39:28.200 --> 0:39:28.640 up in there. 0:39:28.800 --> 0:39:30.200 This woman was walking her dog. 0:39:30.440 --> 0:39:32.640 Yeah, you know, a woman was walking her dog, so 0:39:32.920 --> 0:39:35.520 you know, and she comes across this body. So again, 0:39:35.560 --> 0:39:38.399 like I'm not sure how deep those woods went at 0:39:38.400 --> 0:39:42.399 that particular time, but I don't get the sense that 0:39:42.880 --> 0:39:45.320 it was like they were far off of a beaten path. 0:39:45.760 --> 0:39:47.640 I mean, I don't. I don't think that anyone. 0:39:48.040 --> 0:39:51.480 You know, if you were casually driving through that development, 0:39:51.719 --> 0:39:53.839 you probably wouldn't be able to see it. But if 0:39:53.880 --> 0:39:56.840 you walked a few steps in and you were walking 0:39:56.840 --> 0:39:59.000 a dog, you would be able to see. 0:39:58.760 --> 0:40:01.440 This, Okay, So I mean I guess what I had 0:40:01.480 --> 0:40:03.880 been thinking was that something happened in the basement, and 0:40:03.960 --> 0:40:08.440 it happened at night. Could they have conceivably carried him 0:40:08.680 --> 0:40:11.799 dead strangled, you know, from this house into wherever he 0:40:11.920 --> 0:40:14.080 was found in the woods. It's risky, but if it's 0:40:14.120 --> 0:40:15.600 in the middle of the night, two or three in 0:40:15.640 --> 0:40:17.480 the morning, I guess that's what I was thinking. But 0:40:17.760 --> 0:40:19.799 it does sound kind of complicated to sort out what 0:40:19.800 --> 0:40:21.840 that distance would be. And I mean, if you have 0:40:21.960 --> 0:40:24.640 enough people, you can carry one person anywhere if you 0:40:24.680 --> 0:40:25.080 need it to. 0:40:25.480 --> 0:40:27.880 Yeah, again, it's it's hard. 0:40:28.520 --> 0:40:30.680 One of our big challenges with the show is trying 0:40:30.719 --> 0:40:34.160 to piece together what this neighborhood used to look like, 0:40:34.880 --> 0:40:38.080 and trying to piece it together through people who won't 0:40:38.120 --> 0:40:40.480 talk to you, yeah, you know, in terms of like 0:40:40.520 --> 0:40:43.200 the people who were there, and then trying to piece 0:40:43.239 --> 0:40:45.840 it together also with you know, someone like the EMT 0:40:46.040 --> 0:40:49.239 who was very open about what he saw, but you know, 0:40:49.360 --> 0:40:52.040 he came after the fact, right right. But one of 0:40:52.040 --> 0:40:54.520 the things we did learn is that the way that 0:40:54.560 --> 0:40:57.560 the community used to be sort of designed at the 0:40:57.640 --> 0:41:02.840 time was the woods were sort of behind the houses. 0:41:03.360 --> 0:41:06.840 So now there's so many, you know, housing developments that 0:41:06.920 --> 0:41:09.600 are there that everything is kind of like back to back. 0:41:10.160 --> 0:41:13.800 So when you look when you're in someone's backyard, for example, 0:41:13.840 --> 0:41:16.160 you're looking at more house, there's like a little bit 0:41:16.200 --> 0:41:20.239 of woods, but it's like more houses. And my understanding 0:41:20.360 --> 0:41:23.200 is that it used to be that it was just 0:41:23.239 --> 0:41:25.359 all woods back there, So I guess before that other 0:41:25.719 --> 0:41:30.520 development was built. So that has gone through our mind 0:41:30.640 --> 0:41:33.359 that that could be a possibility that something happened in 0:41:33.360 --> 0:41:37.080 that house in the basement and Keith was dragged out 0:41:37.640 --> 0:41:39.120 into the woods out the back. 0:41:39.840 --> 0:41:41.879 It could have been anything. They could have drugged him, 0:41:41.920 --> 0:41:44.680 he could have been drunk, because they never did toxicology 0:41:44.760 --> 0:41:46.040 or anything on him exactly. 0:41:46.120 --> 0:41:48.400 So after the photos were found in nineteen ninety two, 0:41:49.320 --> 0:41:52.160 it kind of kicked off this new investment. 0:41:52.200 --> 0:41:52.720 It was Liker. 0:41:52.880 --> 0:41:55.040 It made it brand new and now you know Mary, 0:41:55.360 --> 0:41:58.880 it kind of solidified or confirmed everything that Mary and 0:41:58.960 --> 0:42:01.960 Sherry had been thinking all along that something was not right, 0:42:02.000 --> 0:42:03.640 and that's how they you know, they went back to 0:42:03.640 --> 0:42:06.040 the police station, but also they went to local news 0:42:06.080 --> 0:42:08.279 and you know, they started reporting about it. At any rate, 0:42:08.520 --> 0:42:11.920 they actually had the body exhumed because they were like, 0:42:11.960 --> 0:42:13.560 we're going to do our own autopsy. 0:42:13.760 --> 0:42:14.080 Wow. 0:42:14.400 --> 0:42:18.080 So they had their body, they raised money and had 0:42:18.120 --> 0:42:21.839 the body exumed and got you know, forensics to do 0:42:22.000 --> 0:42:25.680 a an autopsy. So mind you this was several years later. 0:42:25.800 --> 0:42:30.560 But they found high doses of TCE in his system. 0:42:30.680 --> 0:42:33.200 There were things found in his system that it's like 0:42:33.520 --> 0:42:36.480 it could be embalming, it could not be embalming, like 0:42:36.600 --> 0:42:40.120 it's it raised some red flags about what was in 0:42:40.160 --> 0:42:43.920 his system. And so going back to your to your point, 0:42:44.480 --> 0:42:47.520 there is a possibility there. I think that something maybe 0:42:47.600 --> 0:42:50.160 happened in the house. Maybe he was at a party 0:42:50.920 --> 0:42:52.759 and maybe he was poisoned. 0:42:52.800 --> 0:42:54.720 Maybe maybe it was drugs. 0:42:54.760 --> 0:42:57.279 We don't know, but there could have been something that 0:42:57.440 --> 0:43:01.239 happened there. If it's a bunch of teenagers going, oh 0:43:01.280 --> 0:43:04.160 my god, you know, freaking out, oh crap, like what happened, 0:43:04.640 --> 0:43:07.120 and they take him out and stage it to look 0:43:07.200 --> 0:43:09.960 like it was something other than what it was, it's 0:43:10.000 --> 0:43:14.600 a possibility. But again because there was no initial autopsy done. Yeah, 0:43:14.640 --> 0:43:16.200 we don't know who had. 0:43:16.120 --> 0:43:18.360 Is this are these police photos? Who had access to 0:43:18.400 --> 0:43:21.080 these photos six years later that they could have anonymously 0:43:21.160 --> 0:43:24.240 dropped them off? Is it just the police do you think. 0:43:25.000 --> 0:43:25.960 That's a good question? 0:43:26.239 --> 0:43:30.880 And you know, another question that has never really been answered. 0:43:30.960 --> 0:43:35.000 I mean, these were copies, the ones that were dropped 0:43:35.040 --> 0:43:38.920 off at Mary's house were copies of police photos. So 0:43:39.360 --> 0:43:42.160 that's also been a question you know throughout, is like 0:43:42.560 --> 0:43:44.440 was this an inside job? Was this someone at the 0:43:44.480 --> 0:43:48.279 police department who realized something was awry and tried to 0:43:48.280 --> 0:43:50.279 give tip them off and give them a heads up? 0:43:50.920 --> 0:43:52.160 Who could have left these? 0:43:52.239 --> 0:43:55.040 There were no there was no return address left, right, 0:43:55.560 --> 0:43:58.080 So it's just very odd, like who would do that 0:43:58.200 --> 0:44:00.279 and what? And it was The other thid part about 0:44:00.320 --> 0:44:03.799 it is it was on Keith's birthday, which I don't know, 0:44:04.239 --> 0:44:07.319 it could be a coincidence that it was left that day, 0:44:07.920 --> 0:44:08.879 but that's so. 0:44:09.080 --> 0:44:13.440 Specific something is happening with his friends, because that's that's weird. 0:44:14.200 --> 0:44:17.239 One thing that is always been a tragedy because I 0:44:17.360 --> 0:44:19.520 you know, I told you, you know, I work most 0:44:19.560 --> 0:44:23.160 of the time with historical crimes. What is so frustrating 0:44:23.200 --> 0:44:26.440 to me is what could be done now in these 0:44:26.520 --> 0:44:29.000 kind of crimes. And it's just I mean, you know, 0:44:29.040 --> 0:44:31.880 I know enough about you know, strangling with rope, where 0:44:32.120 --> 0:44:34.640 you've got somebody gripping on and you know, you can 0:44:34.680 --> 0:44:37.359 sometimes get DNA because that person's trying to get out 0:44:37.680 --> 0:44:39.920 of the rope, right and they might scratch them. And that, 0:44:40.120 --> 0:44:43.040 to me is the tragic part of this is if 0:44:43.040 --> 0:44:45.479 they had just done some simple things, some swabs under 0:44:45.480 --> 0:44:49.320 his nails, something like that, I mean, anything that would 0:44:49.320 --> 0:44:51.640 have been difficult. I'm going to ask one more thing 0:44:51.680 --> 0:44:54.200 that I had forgotten to ask. So the police, nobody's 0:44:54.440 --> 0:44:57.480 reported any kind of at the funeral home, nobody reported 0:44:57.480 --> 0:44:59.319 any kind of trauma on him, right, Like there's no 0:44:59.400 --> 0:45:01.880 bruises or scratches or anything weird like that. 0:45:02.480 --> 0:45:05.440 No, And it's weird because you know, like I said earlier, 0:45:05.520 --> 0:45:08.279 the funeral home said that his body was decomposed and 0:45:08.320 --> 0:45:09.960 you can't come and see the body and all this 0:45:10.080 --> 0:45:13.359 kind of stuff. But like, there wasn't any reports of 0:45:13.480 --> 0:45:17.600 any scratches, you know. We talked to Roger Mitchell, who 0:45:18.120 --> 0:45:20.920 is a medical examiner. He now works at Howard University 0:45:20.920 --> 0:45:23.719 and he's in the dock. But he talks about those 0:45:23.800 --> 0:45:27.879 signs of strangulation when they did that autopsy. You can 0:45:27.920 --> 0:45:30.200 look at the signs. You can look at the neck, 0:45:30.400 --> 0:45:33.000 you can look at blood vessels, you can none of 0:45:33.000 --> 0:45:39.480 these were obstructed his neck, his spine, his chest, his eyes. 0:45:40.000 --> 0:45:45.960 Nothing indicated strangulation, you know, or hanging. There was there 0:45:46.000 --> 0:45:49.640 was no evidence of that in that report. So that's 0:45:50.200 --> 0:45:53.560 another thing of like a red flag that just physically 0:45:54.080 --> 0:45:59.320 the body, his body did not show signs of doing 0:45:59.360 --> 0:46:00.279 that to himself. 0:46:00.719 --> 0:46:04.240 Yeah, it doesn't add up with the exception of Mary 0:46:04.440 --> 0:46:08.160 and Sherry. You must know more about this case than 0:46:08.200 --> 0:46:11.880 anybody else. What is your sense about what happened? I mean, 0:46:12.000 --> 0:46:14.200 just flat out what do you think? What is the 0:46:14.200 --> 0:46:17.200 most plausible thing that happened to Keith that night? 0:46:17.920 --> 0:46:20.200 The best thing I can say, I do think something 0:46:20.320 --> 0:46:24.239 happened with his friends. I think something happened that night, 0:46:24.320 --> 0:46:27.200 whether it was a party, whether it was just a 0:46:27.320 --> 0:46:31.440 gathering or something I can't put my finger on, you know, 0:46:31.680 --> 0:46:35.600 what the event was and why, meaning was it an 0:46:35.680 --> 0:46:39.080 argument or you know, or just playing around and something 0:46:39.120 --> 0:46:42.000 went awry. But I do think something happened that night 0:46:42.280 --> 0:46:45.080 with his friends. My sense is that these friends were 0:46:45.160 --> 0:46:49.759 trying to cover up something whatever. They were trying to 0:46:49.800 --> 0:46:53.200 cover up whatever happened in that house so that they 0:46:53.239 --> 0:46:56.640 wouldn't get in trouble for whatever. I'm not, you know, 0:46:56.719 --> 0:46:58.160 like I said, it could have been an accident. It 0:46:58.200 --> 0:47:00.640 could have or maybe it was malicious. But I think 0:47:00.640 --> 0:47:03.360 that they were trying to cover up something that happened, 0:47:03.640 --> 0:47:05.520 and in them trying to cover it, I think they 0:47:05.520 --> 0:47:08.719 did a botch job in trying to cover it up 0:47:08.840 --> 0:47:12.800 by making it look like he tied himself to a tree. 0:47:12.920 --> 0:47:14.040 And on top of. 0:47:13.960 --> 0:47:17.520 That, you had a police department who did not do 0:47:17.600 --> 0:47:21.200 what they were supposed to do, and you know, arrived 0:47:21.239 --> 0:47:23.399 on the scene and then you know, say, oh, we're 0:47:23.400 --> 0:47:26.680 just gonna sweep this under the rug. We're gonna label 0:47:26.719 --> 0:47:29.440 it this way, and let's all move on with our lives. 0:47:29.960 --> 0:47:32.560 There's also I mean, I won't go into all of this, 0:47:32.760 --> 0:47:35.800 but there's rumors and there's talks about the police department, 0:47:35.840 --> 0:47:39.520 the Montgomery County Police Department. The officer in particular, does 0:47:39.560 --> 0:47:41.719 he know the people, you know, in terms of the 0:47:41.719 --> 0:47:44.520 people who were in that house, you know. So I 0:47:44.600 --> 0:47:47.359 just think that something happened in the house, they tried 0:47:47.400 --> 0:47:49.600 to cover it up, and in their trying to cover 0:47:49.640 --> 0:47:53.040 it up, the police came and covered up the cover up. 0:47:53.360 --> 0:47:56.359 So I think that there were multiple things happening in 0:47:56.400 --> 0:47:59.839 this case, and everything just went around and I think 0:48:00.000 --> 0:48:04.279 everything went awry, especially when the photos showed up at 0:48:04.280 --> 0:48:05.080 Mary Coui's store. 0:48:05.719 --> 0:48:09.759 You said that those photos kind of reignited this investigation. 0:48:09.920 --> 0:48:13.759 Is Keith's case an open case right now? With silver Spring. 0:48:14.040 --> 0:48:16.000 Even that is a big question mark. 0:48:16.120 --> 0:48:19.040 So at the time when we were doing this series, 0:48:19.280 --> 0:48:22.200 when you talk to Chief Manger, who was the chief 0:48:22.239 --> 0:48:24.719 of police at that time, he would say, Oh, yes, 0:48:24.960 --> 0:48:28.400 the police messed up. The police have botched up this case. 0:48:28.440 --> 0:48:30.120 We're going to reopen the case. But then when you 0:48:30.160 --> 0:48:32.880 talk to the Montgomery County Police Department, they say it's closed. 0:48:33.120 --> 0:48:37.000 So even within their own department, there's not an agreement 0:48:37.480 --> 0:48:38.960 on whether the case is open or not. 0:48:39.360 --> 0:48:40.840 Yeah, So I would. 0:48:40.719 --> 0:48:43.080 Imagine that if today, if we were to go to 0:48:43.160 --> 0:48:46.000 Montgomery County and ask the police department, they'd probably say 0:48:46.040 --> 0:48:48.640 the case is closed. Yeah, But like I said, there's 0:48:48.719 --> 0:48:53.840 discrepancy there on whether it's officially an open or close case. 0:48:54.320 --> 0:48:58.319 If someone has information on what happened to you know, 0:48:58.400 --> 0:49:00.719 Keith Warren, what should be done? How would they be 0:49:00.760 --> 0:49:02.000 able to pass on information? 0:49:02.160 --> 0:49:04.440 Do you think I think a good way is to, 0:49:04.960 --> 0:49:07.000 you know, contact Sherry Warren. 0:49:07.120 --> 0:49:08.440 You can contact myself, you. 0:49:08.440 --> 0:49:11.759 Can get you know, if anyone has any type of information, 0:49:12.120 --> 0:49:15.160 even though you know, like I said, their whole thing 0:49:15.280 --> 0:49:18.240 was not to find out, you always want that closure. 0:49:18.680 --> 0:49:22.319 If someone knows anything by all means, I would say, 0:49:22.440 --> 0:49:26.040 reach out to any of us first. Like you said, 0:49:26.040 --> 0:49:29.440 I don't know that reaching out to the police department 0:49:29.480 --> 0:49:33.040 would be the way to go initially, But if there's 0:49:33.080 --> 0:49:35.520 anyone that wanted to talk or that or that was 0:49:35.520 --> 0:49:38.319 a witness on that night, or you know, just has 0:49:38.360 --> 0:49:41.840 any information that they could share, by all means, please 0:49:41.920 --> 0:49:42.400 let us know. 0:49:43.040 --> 0:49:46.080 Gosh, I hope that something happens, especially if this is murder, 0:49:46.160 --> 0:49:49.400 there's somebody out there that either knows something more than 0:49:49.440 --> 0:49:53.680 we do or did something very bad to this young 0:49:53.719 --> 0:49:56.239 man who is going to college. Sounds like he has 0:49:56.280 --> 0:49:59.359 a wonderful future. So you know, my hope is with 0:49:59.440 --> 0:50:01.799 this show, with you know, people watching, I mean, I 0:50:01.880 --> 0:50:04.759 just watched your show. It's out there. I'm hoping that 0:50:04.880 --> 0:50:08.439 something new comes. And it's so awful that Mary died 0:50:08.480 --> 0:50:12.200 without having any answers. But let's hope that Sherry in you, 0:50:12.239 --> 0:50:15.160 because you're invested in this, can finally get some kind 0:50:15.200 --> 0:50:16.560 of closure to the story. 0:50:17.120 --> 0:50:19.640 Yes, that would be amazing, and it would be a 0:50:19.680 --> 0:50:23.160 big Like you said, you use the right word is closure. 0:50:23.440 --> 0:50:26.320 You know, just that sense of just finding out what happened. 0:50:26.680 --> 0:50:29.319 There's just so many loose threads, just yeah, to find 0:50:29.320 --> 0:50:31.600 out answers would be a huge help. 0:50:31.840 --> 0:50:34.040 I would imagine it would be like having somebody who's 0:50:34.080 --> 0:50:36.000 missing and you've never found the body, but you just 0:50:36.120 --> 0:50:39.560 know they're gone, they're dead, but you've never located the body. 0:50:39.560 --> 0:50:42.719 I mean that level of like emptiness, and I'm so 0:50:42.840 --> 0:50:45.520 sorry that Mary died without being able to feel that. 0:50:45.880 --> 0:50:46.400 Yeah. 0:50:46.560 --> 0:50:49.120 Yeah, it's very sad. It's very sad that she was 0:50:49.160 --> 0:50:51.400 never able to get to the body. You know, she 0:50:52.120 --> 0:50:56.040 died fighting this. She died trying to figure out you know, 0:50:56.080 --> 0:50:58.480 that's cherry believe, because it was like a really weird, 0:50:58.920 --> 0:51:02.400 mysterious illness that she came down with and she died 0:51:02.440 --> 0:51:05.080 like within a matter of days. It just happened so fast. 0:51:05.640 --> 0:51:07.560 And the thinking is that it's just you know, you 0:51:07.640 --> 0:51:12.000 build up that stress and anger and hurt and sometimes 0:51:12.000 --> 0:51:14.640 it manifests itself in the body. And I do believe 0:51:14.680 --> 0:51:17.759 that she died trying to get to the bottom of 0:51:17.800 --> 0:51:20.319 this and trying to find out what happened, which is 0:51:20.360 --> 0:51:23.440 why I was so grateful for Sherry of you know, 0:51:23.520 --> 0:51:26.600 picking up the mantle and carrying it forward and going 0:51:26.600 --> 0:51:29.720 through this whole process of reliving everything for this docu 0:51:29.840 --> 0:51:32.880 series and kind of taking up that mantle for her mom. 0:51:33.120 --> 0:51:36.120 It's very unfortunate that she passed not knowing. 0:51:47.520 --> 0:51:50.440 If you love historical true crime stories, check out the 0:51:50.480 --> 0:51:53.319 audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That 0:51:53.480 --> 0:51:56.680 Is Wicked, and American Sherlock and Don't Forget. There are 0:51:56.760 --> 0:52:00.560 twelve seasons of my historical true crime podcast to More 0:52:00.560 --> 0:52:04.239 Wicked right here in this podcast feed, scroll back and 0:52:04.239 --> 0:52:07.000 give them a listen if you haven't already. This has 0:52:07.080 --> 0:52:10.800 been an exactly right production. Our senior producer is Alexis 0:52:10.880 --> 0:52:15.719 a Morosi. Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. This episode 0:52:15.880 --> 0:52:19.320 was mixed by John Bradley. Curtis Heath is our composer, 0:52:19.600 --> 0:52:24.080 artwork by Nick Toga. Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen 0:52:24.160 --> 0:52:28.520 Kilgariff and Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram at 0:52:28.600 --> 0:52:32.640 tenfold More Wicked and on Facebook at Wicked Words Pod