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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: When you have a loved one and you find those

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Speaker 2: little inconsistencies, It's hard to sleep when you know that

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Speaker 2: something is not right.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the

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Speaker 1: podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career,

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Speaker 1: research for my many audio and book projects has taken

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Speaker 1: me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down

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Speaker 1: with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers,

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Speaker 1: and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious true

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Speaker 1: crime cases. This is about the choices writers make, both

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Speaker 1: good and bad, and it's a deep dive into the

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Speaker 1: unpublished details behind their stories. In nineteen eighty six, seventeen

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Speaker 1: year old Keith Warren was found hanging from a tree

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Speaker 1: in Silver Spring, Maryland. His sister wanted answers how did

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Speaker 1: he die? It was ruled a suicide, but there were

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Speaker 1: so many suspicious things about Keith's death. I talked to

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Speaker 1: filmmaker April Speaks about her docuseries Uprooted, which covers Keith's case.

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Speaker 1: So when you talk to people about this series, what

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Speaker 1: do you say, what's your kind of really quick elevator pitch,

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Speaker 1: you know, a couple of sentences of what the story

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Speaker 1: is about.

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Speaker 2: Typically, the way I would describe this series is to

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Speaker 2: kind of talk about what happens. You know, I said,

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Speaker 2: you know, there was a seventeen year old young man

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Speaker 2: who was killed in a who was found whose body

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Speaker 2: was found hanging from a tree in Silver Spring, Maryland

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Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty six. But you know, the more I

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Speaker 2: think about it, and especially now that I've had some

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Speaker 2: time to reflect and kind of sort of be distance

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Speaker 2: from it a little bit in terms of time, I

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Speaker 2: would really describe it as a story about grief, a

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Speaker 2: family's grief and loss, and a mixed bag of unanswered questions.

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Speaker 2: And you know, it is essentially about a young man

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Speaker 2: named Keith Warne who grew up in Silver Spring, Maryland.

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Speaker 2: In nineteen eighty six, he was found hanging from a

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Speaker 2: tree and the police immediately ruled it a suicide and

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Speaker 2: the family said, no way, this can't be possible. And

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Speaker 2: they've been on a quest ever since then to find

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Speaker 2: justice for their son, their brother, their nephew, just to

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Speaker 2: find answers and ultimately to find their form what they

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Speaker 2: would consider to be justice, because I think that, you know,

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Speaker 2: justice looks different for different people in terms of what

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Speaker 2: that means. And so what they were looking for was

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Speaker 2: for the death certificate to be changed because the death

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Speaker 2: certificate was ruled suicide on the death certificate and they

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Speaker 2: wanted it to be changed from suicide to undetermined because

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Speaker 2: there were so many questions. So it wasn't even so

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Speaker 2: much that they were, you know, searching for a killer

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Speaker 2: or searching for you know, who done it. They just

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Speaker 2: wanted a piece of paper changed. So it's a heartbreaking story.

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Speaker 1: What was your before we get into the actual story

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Speaker 1: about Keith? What was your end? Did you know his

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Speaker 1: mom or who did you know? Or did you just

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Speaker 1: reach out kind of cold call somebody.

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Speaker 3: This story came to me through now this the EP.

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Speaker 2: Matt McDonough heard about this story on a podcast and

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Speaker 2: reached out to Sherry Warren and just said, this is

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Speaker 2: a fascinating story.

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Speaker 3: Can I talk to you more about it?

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Speaker 2: And became friends with Sherry, and then Matt approached me

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Speaker 2: about the story and as someone who used to live

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Speaker 2: in Silver Spring, who went to undergrad University of Maryland

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Speaker 2: and College Park. Spent a lot of my growing up

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Speaker 2: years going back and if I had a lot of

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Speaker 2: family in Maryland, so Maryland, that Maryland DC area is

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Speaker 2: kind of like a second home to me. And so

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Speaker 2: to hear about this story, it piqued my interest. And

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Speaker 2: also just hearing about Sherry also just as another black

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Speaker 2: woman just trying to find justice for her brother, was

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Speaker 2: of interest. So anyways, Matt reached out to me, and

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Speaker 2: he and I teamed up and we started developing the

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Speaker 2: story and you know, just hearing more from Sherry and

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Speaker 2: trying to put pieces together and bring it to life.

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Speaker 2: So that's kind of my involvement with this story kind

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Speaker 2: of came through through Matt. And like I said, once

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Speaker 2: I met Sherry, honestly, like once I heard the story itself,

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Speaker 2: it's like just even without meeting Sherry, just the story

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Speaker 2: in and of itself. And I think I had actually

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Speaker 2: seen some of the photos, the photographs of Keith in

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Speaker 2: the woods. I immediately had a bunch of questions which

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Speaker 2: we can talk about, but like I just had a

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Speaker 2: bunch of questions just off of the photos themselves. And

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Speaker 2: like I said, and then after that, then meeting Sherry

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Speaker 2: was kind of what I think sort of kickstarted the

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Speaker 2: whole journey.

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Speaker 1: You know, in my stories, even though I write about

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Speaker 1: historical crime and my stories, I'm always searching for the heroes, specifically,

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Speaker 1: I'm always on the hunt for female heroes. And we

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Speaker 1: have Sherry, and we have his mother. You have women

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Speaker 1: who are really in men, but really women who are

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Speaker 1: stepping in and I know that they're his family members,

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Speaker 1: but they felt so strongly before we jump into Keith's story,

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Speaker 1: Can you tell me what your impression of is is

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Speaker 1: Why is this so important to them? Is it something

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Speaker 1: about saving his reputation? I don't that's not the right phrase,

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Speaker 1: but you know, I mean, what is it that drove

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Speaker 1: them so much?

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Speaker 2: That's a really great question. There's a couple of things

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Speaker 2: at play, I think. I think dignity is part of it,

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Speaker 2: especially when you know someone so well and you know

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Speaker 2: there's always just that nagging you know. It's like it's

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Speaker 2: like when someone lies on you, right, Like, I think

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Speaker 2: we all have that instinct when someone tells a lie

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Speaker 2: about you that you just that you're just like this,

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Speaker 2: this is not true about me, And for a lot

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Speaker 2: of us, it just continues to nag at you until

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Speaker 2: you're able to prove and say, like, this is just

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Speaker 2: not the truth. I think that there's a level of

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Speaker 2: dignity of a person, that person being Keith Warren, and

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Speaker 2: you know your brother, you know your son, you just

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Speaker 2: know that this is not something that they would do

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Speaker 2: and just want to prove that. I think there's also

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Speaker 2: another element of accountability and really wanting the police department

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Speaker 2: to take accountability for at the end of the day,

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Speaker 2: an investigation that was never conducted. This case would have

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Speaker 2: probably been different if an investigation had been done. And

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Speaker 2: I think that a big part of it, at the

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Speaker 2: at the core of it is that to be so

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Speaker 2: sure of yourself to rule it a suicide without an investigation,

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Speaker 2: I think that that's something that weighs very heavily on

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Speaker 2: the family, that that's something that just needs to be righted,

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Speaker 2: it needs to be corrected. And then, like I said,

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Speaker 2: you know, in addition to that, it's like we know

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Speaker 2: this person and this is just this isn't right, This

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Speaker 2: isn't the truth, This isn't the truth of the matter,

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Speaker 2: and we don't know what the truth is. You know,

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Speaker 2: even to this day, even the family themselves will say

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Speaker 2: even Sherry will say, we don't know, we don't know

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Speaker 2: what happened. We're not even you know, even when we

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Speaker 2: did this series, you know, she would constantly say, I'm

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Speaker 2: not looking to find you know, the killer, because we can't.

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Speaker 2: There was no investigation, we don't have any evidence.

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Speaker 1: In eighty six, gosh, let me mention a story and

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Speaker 1: you just tell me what you think, and then I

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Speaker 1: promise we will start talking about Keith. So At a

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Speaker 1: convention several years ago, I interviewed a man who was

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Speaker 1: the father of a geologist named Daniel Robinson. I don't

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Speaker 1: know if you've heard about this case in twenty twenty one.

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Speaker 1: He was a black man in Arizona who just disappeared

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Speaker 1: in the desert. He went to a site, one of

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Speaker 1: his work sites, and he vanished. And the reason that

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Speaker 1: we were talking about the story besides that you know

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Speaker 1: he was a missing person that you know, this happened

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Speaker 1: right when the Gabby Patito case was coming out, and

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Speaker 1: his father was disturbed because you know, of course how

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Speaker 1: much attension that case received while his son went missing

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Speaker 1: under mysterious circumstances, and you know, of course, this is

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Speaker 1: we're leading up to how much do you think the

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Speaker 1: dismissing from the police in Maryland that this was just

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Speaker 1: a suicide and this was nothing else had to do

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Speaker 1: with the fact that he was a man of color.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, I absolutely think that that had something to do

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Speaker 2: with it. And I think that in ruling it a

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Speaker 2: suicide was their way of making it go away. And

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Speaker 2: I think that they thought they were just gonna, you know,

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Speaker 2: come to the scene and just say, you know, write

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Speaker 2: something on a piece of paper, and that in no

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Speaker 2: time it would be forgotten. And I also think that,

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Speaker 2: you know, going back to your question about why have

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Speaker 2: they been pursuing why have they been so persistent in this,

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Speaker 2: I do think that there's something about erasure, you know,

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Speaker 2: of a loved one, that there's just no acknowledgment, there's

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Speaker 2: no acknowledgment of the passing of a life, of a

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Speaker 2: life gone. And yeah, I do think that the police department,

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Speaker 2: the media, there was no media at that time done

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Speaker 2: on this case. I think everyone just kind of brushed

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Speaker 2: it off. I think labeling it as a suicide was

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Speaker 2: an easy way to brush it off without having to

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Speaker 2: point fingers at anyone, without having to implicate anyone. He

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Speaker 2: acted alone. He did this by himself. He was in

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Speaker 2: the woods. This was all him. Case closed, move on.

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Speaker 2: So yes, I definitely think that that was part of it.

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Speaker 2: And at the same time, I also think that that

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Speaker 2: was a big reason why the family was so adamant

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Speaker 2: in proving that that could not have been the case.

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Speaker 2: There were so many little things, even from from day one,

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Speaker 2: there were things that just didn't add up. And I

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Speaker 2: don't think when you're when you have a loved one

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Speaker 2: and you find those little inconsistencies, it's hard to sleep when, yeah,

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Speaker 2: when you know that something is not right.

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Speaker 1: Tell me about Keith, kind of start from the beginning.

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Speaker 1: What do we know about him? What kind of kid

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Speaker 1: is this? He turns into a teenager? What is he like?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? So Keith Warren.

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Speaker 2: From what we gathered about him through Sherry, through friends

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Speaker 2: and artifacts that we found is that Keith was a

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Speaker 2: typical teenager. He liked to play basketball, He loved to

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Speaker 2: listen to music. You know, he had his favorite rock bands.

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Speaker 2: He listened to You Two, he listened to the Police,

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Speaker 2: He had friends. He was about to go to college.

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Speaker 2: He had just graduated from high school that summer and

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Speaker 2: was preparing to go to college.

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Speaker 3: He was just a typical teenager.

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Speaker 2: He lived in Silver Spring, Maryland, which is right outside

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Speaker 2: of the nation's capital, living in a diverse neighborhood, you know,

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Speaker 2: being a black family living in what was known as

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Speaker 2: Georgian colonies. You know, he some people would describe him

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Speaker 2: as different me and you know when they said that,

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Speaker 2: they meant he was just kind of the guy that

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Speaker 2: knew everybody, that hung out with everyone, but also just

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Speaker 2: had his you know, his own way about things and

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Speaker 2: his own way of doing things. He was a typical kid,

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Speaker 2: you know, atypical kid getting ready to go off to

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Speaker 2: college and start his life as an adult and home wife.

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Speaker 2: So he lived with his mother. His mother, Mary Cooey,

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Speaker 2: raised him and his sisters Sherrie. Their father lived in

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Speaker 2: North They were not together. His father lived in North Carolina,

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Speaker 2: and they moved, the three of them moved at a

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Speaker 2: young age.

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Speaker 3: They moved to Silver Spring.

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Speaker 2: So he had grown up in the home with Mary

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Speaker 2: and with Sherry, and the three of them were like

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Speaker 2: the three Musketeers. I mean, they were inseparable. Everyone in

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Speaker 2: that community knew Sherry, they knew Keith, they knew Mary,

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Speaker 2: you know, and it was a community and they were

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Speaker 2: just getting along, you know. But like I said, and

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Speaker 2: also I will say too, you know, the three of

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Speaker 2: them were close, and they also had a very close

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Speaker 2: extended family also, so they had you know, uncles, aunts

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Speaker 2: who lived in North Carolina still that they went you

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Speaker 2: know to visit very often. Mary had, I know, she

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Speaker 2: had a couple of brothers and you know a sister

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Speaker 2: as well, sister in New Jersey and a couple of

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Speaker 2: brothers in North Carolina. That they were very close as well,

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Speaker 2: and they would travel back and forth to visit those

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Speaker 2: that family quite often. So they would go back to

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Speaker 2: North Carolina. They own you know, acres of land in Behama,

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Speaker 2: North Carolina. They would go and spend holidays or you know,

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Speaker 2: does at any given moment go there. And then the

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Speaker 2: same thing with New Jersey they would go and visit there.

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Speaker 2: So they were a tight knit family in terms of

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Speaker 2: the three of them, but then also their extended family

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Speaker 2: was very close as well.

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Speaker 1: So you said he had friends in high school, did

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Speaker 1: he date at all?

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Speaker 2: There were rumors of you know, he liked this person

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Speaker 2: or he liked that person. In all honesty, it's hard

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Speaker 2: to get a sense of specifically who was his girlfriend,

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Speaker 2: Who was he dating at the time, Who was this?

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Speaker 3: Who was that?

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Speaker 2: Because none of the friends would talk to us, Sherry

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Speaker 2: was not aware of, you know, a specific girlfriend do

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Speaker 2: you know that he had. But we did find letters.

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Speaker 2: There were letters that you know, some of the girls

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Speaker 2: in his class had written him, but all of those

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Speaker 2: letters were like very friendly, you know, yeah, close friends,

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Speaker 2: but you know, they were all kind of on a

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Speaker 2: friendship level. We didn't find any letters that were you know,

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Speaker 2: love letters or anything like that.

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Speaker 3: So it's kind of it's hard to say.

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Speaker 2: I think, you know, we've talked to some people and

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Speaker 2: there's like rumors that he may have liked this person

255
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Speaker 2: or liked that person, but it's hard to say definitively

256
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Speaker 2: because you know, no one would talk and those people

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Speaker 2: that they said it was still a thing of like, well,

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Speaker 2: I think I'm not sure, you know, So there was

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Speaker 2: never a definitive girlfriend that he had per se.

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Speaker 1: So, I mean, you've just said this twice. Why wouldn't

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Speaker 1: they talk to you all? Was it just because it

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Speaker 1: was so long ago, or were they uncomfortable about something?

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Speaker 3: It's TV.

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Speaker 1: I get it. A lot of people don't want to

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Speaker 1: be on TV.

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Speaker 3: That to me is the number one question.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, I have many questions after doing this case,

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Speaker 2: but that, to me was the most baffling thing because

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Speaker 2: we talked to some of his friends, his so called friends.

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Speaker 2: They would talk to us on the phone, but when

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Speaker 2: it came time to do an interview, they wouldn't say anything.

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Speaker 2: And even when we talked to them on the phone,

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Speaker 2: they were still being cagey, you know, they were still

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Speaker 2: being a little bit well, I don't want to say.

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Speaker 3: I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I feel like someone knows something why they won't speak out.

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Speaker 3: I don't know. I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I can make theories assumptions as to what that was,

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Speaker 2: what people knew and didn't want to say that they

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Speaker 2: knew who people knew. In terms of who was involved,

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Speaker 2: I think there may have been some names of people

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Speaker 2: that were thrown around that. You know, it's like if

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Speaker 2: you know such and such was involved, and you don't

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Speaker 2: want to say that person's name, then you just decide

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Speaker 2: to stay out of it. There was one person we

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Speaker 2: spoke to on the phone. They were great, They said, oh,

287
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Speaker 2: I want to speak out and I want to, you know,

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Speaker 2: defend Keith's name. When it came time to do the interview,

289
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Speaker 2: she backed out as almost as if someone had gotten

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Speaker 2: into their ear and said, oh, don't do that, because

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Speaker 2: they were they were very excited to do the interview

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Speaker 2: at one point and then all of a sudden, maybe

293
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Speaker 2: it was cold feet, I don't know, but there's also just,

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Speaker 2: you know, this feeling like why is there such a

295
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Speaker 2: hesitance to talk? And did she talk to someone else

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Speaker 2: that made them feel like they shouldn't talk to us?

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Speaker 3: So I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I know that he was from a diverse community, but

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Speaker 1: I just wonder if there was in that community the

300
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Speaker 1: same kind of sense I get about, of course police,

301
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Speaker 1: you know, not trusting the police perhaps, but also not

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Speaker 1: really not trusting the media either. And I wonder if

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Speaker 1: that kind of over to you all, even though you

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Speaker 1: were reporting on something that was almost forty years old,

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Speaker 1: I mean eighty six and this came out in twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty two, right on Discovery Plus correct. Yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I just wonder if that still kind of sticks with

308
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Speaker 1: with people, and maybe they're not hiding anything, but it's

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Speaker 1: sort of like, I'm not going to put myself out

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Speaker 1: there because I don't like the way other stories have

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Speaker 1: been framed in the past.

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Speaker 2: It's totally possible, and you know, I've experienced that we

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Speaker 2: you know, I've heard that on this show. On other

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Speaker 2: shows I've worked on, I've heard that, I heard a

315
00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:33,520
Speaker 2: similar you know, a similar sentiment. I think with this

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Speaker 2: with this series, what we really tried to emphasize was

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Speaker 2: that we're not trying to We're not trying to implicate

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Speaker 2: anyone again because we can't. We literally just wanted someone

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00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:51,040
Speaker 2: to come on and pretty much just talk about Keith's character.

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Speaker 2: You know, our sort of angle with the Friends was simply,

321
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Speaker 2: can you come on and just say Keith was a

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00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:04,120
Speaker 2: great tell us a story about one time we were

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Speaker 2: by the lockers and Keith said this funny joke, like,

324
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Speaker 2: we don't need to ask you anything because again, because

325
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Speaker 2: we're not trying to quote unquote solve the case on this,

326
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Speaker 2: all we want you to do is tell us what

327
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Speaker 2: was great about Keith. And they would tell us on

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Speaker 2: the phone, like Keith was such a great guy, he

329
00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:26,960
Speaker 2: was so great, he was so great, he was so great.

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Speaker 2: Just say that same thing on camera, and they wouldn't, So,

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Speaker 2: you know, yeah, there is a possibility they may not

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Speaker 2: trust the media. We try to mitigate that a bit

333
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Speaker 2: by just saying like, we're not trying to pull a gotcha,

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Speaker 2: We're not trying to trap you in anything or make

335
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Speaker 2: it look like you're saying something you're not.

336
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Speaker 3: We just want someone to speak for him.

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Speaker 2: You know. It's like he's no longer here. He can't

338
00:18:57,080 --> 00:18:59,399
Speaker 2: speak for himself. We have all these family members who

339
00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:02,040
Speaker 2: can speak from that side, but nobody can tell us

340
00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:06,560
Speaker 2: what Keith was like at school except for his friends.

341
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Speaker 3: I don't know.

342
00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:09,840
Speaker 2: In doing this show, that was one of those things

343
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Speaker 2: that really kind of struck a nerve for me. You know,

344
00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:17,760
Speaker 2: if you imagine Keith being a young man going about

345
00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:21,520
Speaker 2: his business, and you know, you're having these interactions with

346
00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:24,360
Speaker 2: people you think you believe to be your friends. Right,

347
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Speaker 2: And if I were to think about that, if I

348
00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:28,480
Speaker 2: think about the people who are in my circle who

349
00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:32,000
Speaker 2: I call to be my friends, and God forbid, if

350
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Speaker 2: something were to happen to me at any moment, the

351
00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:37,560
Speaker 2: idea that the people that have been in my.

352
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Speaker 3: House, who have eaten my food, have been in my car.

353
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Speaker 1: Shared your life with you, yeah.

354
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Speaker 2: Shared life with me and know me, and when asked

355
00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:51,239
Speaker 2: about my character or asked about who I am, they

356
00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:54,320
Speaker 2: have nothing to say, Like no one will defend me.

357
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Speaker 2: No one will even just speak a good word about

358
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Speaker 2: that one time I at April's house and we played

359
00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:06,840
Speaker 2: checkers or whatever, Like, no one has anything to say. Yeah,

360
00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:09,480
Speaker 2: I just found that to be quite disturbing.

361
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Speaker 1: Take me to wherever we need to go to set

362
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Speaker 1: up this awful event that happens. How far back do

363
00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:21,760
Speaker 1: we go to kind of set this scene up?

364
00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:25,679
Speaker 2: Well, I think we can start in July of nineteen

365
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Speaker 2: eighty six. I want to say it was the end

366
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Speaker 2: of July. I think it was July twenty eighth, I

367
00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:32,320
Speaker 2: believe was the date. It was a Tuesday for sure.

368
00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:35,760
Speaker 2: You know, Keith was at home with his sister and

369
00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:38,520
Speaker 2: his Actually he was at home with his mother because

370
00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:41,680
Speaker 2: his sister was in New Jersey at the time visiting

371
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Speaker 2: her aunt that I spoke about earlier. Keith gets a call,

372
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Speaker 2: he talks, he hangs up, and he leaves the house.

373
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Speaker 2: He tells his mother he's gonna go hang out with

374
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Speaker 2: some friends, and he leaves with his backpack. He's wearing

375
00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:57,480
Speaker 2: a pair of shorts and a T shirt. He always

376
00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:02,840
Speaker 2: wore these brown Timberland boots that he wore twenty four

377
00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:05,280
Speaker 2: to seven. He wore them all the time. So it's

378
00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:07,520
Speaker 2: kind of like his signature. Look, but he grabs all

379
00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:10,480
Speaker 2: that and he leaves the house. And that's on Tuesday.

380
00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:16,560
Speaker 2: Wednesday comes there's no Keith. You know, Mary realizes that

381
00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:19,880
Speaker 2: Keith did not come home, as I think, as any

382
00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:23,000
Speaker 2: mother would. She starts to panic a bit and she

383
00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:26,000
Speaker 2: calls the police, and the police tell her that she

384
00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:30,040
Speaker 2: cannot file a missing person's report until he's been gone

385
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Speaker 2: for forty eight hours.

386
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Speaker 3: So she says, okay, she goes back.

387
00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:38,560
Speaker 2: It was July thirty first, nineteen eighty six, when Keith's

388
00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:42,439
Speaker 2: body was found. From what I remember from the case,

389
00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:45,720
Speaker 2: there was a woman that was walking through the woods

390
00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:50,919
Speaker 2: and found his body and called nine one one. She

391
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:53,320
Speaker 2: found his body, you know, in the woods and called

392
00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:58,720
Speaker 2: nine one one. Now, apparently when the call was made

393
00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:01,280
Speaker 2: it was stated that this is according to the EMT

394
00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:04,359
Speaker 2: who arrived on the scene. When the call was made,

395
00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:06,399
Speaker 2: it was said that there was a body found in

396
00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:09,919
Speaker 2: the basement. So when the EMT came to the house

397
00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:15,080
Speaker 2: where the call came from, there was commotion. Oh no, no, no, no,

398
00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:18,520
Speaker 2: it wasn't in the basement. The body was in the woods.

399
00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:20,920
Speaker 2: It was found in the woods, and you know, one

400
00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:23,760
Speaker 2: person came to the door and there was a scuffle,

401
00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:27,040
Speaker 2: and you know, the EMT is like, okay, well wherever

402
00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:28,840
Speaker 2: the body is, like, take us to the body. We

403
00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:31,120
Speaker 2: have to you know, you know, we need to do

404
00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:34,119
Speaker 2: these procedures, like we have to get there right away.

405
00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:35,920
Speaker 2: So the one person says, no, I don't want to

406
00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:38,439
Speaker 2: take you back there. Then another person comes to the door,

407
00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:40,720
Speaker 2: I can take you back there, but they were on crutches,

408
00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:42,600
Speaker 2: so they were gonna go too slow.

409
00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:44,919
Speaker 3: Someone needs to take us to the body.

410
00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:45,359
Speaker 1: Yeah.

411
00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:48,080
Speaker 2: A third person comes and they say, okay, I'll take you.

412
00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:51,439
Speaker 2: They take them to the woods and this is where

413
00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:56,719
Speaker 2: they found Keith's body. Within this time, the police arrived

414
00:22:57,080 --> 00:23:00,800
Speaker 2: and it was determined, and they called the coroner and

415
00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:05,600
Speaker 2: determined this to be a suicide. Mind you, they made

416
00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:09,119
Speaker 2: this determination on the scene and the family was not

417
00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:14,680
Speaker 2: notified until several hours after this. So while all this

418
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:18,800
Speaker 2: is going on, Mary Cooey is at work in I

419
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:21,639
Speaker 2: believe she worked in Bethesda, Maryland.

420
00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:22,640
Speaker 3: If I remember.

421
00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:25,400
Speaker 1: Correctly, this is his mother, right, This is his mother,

422
00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:25,959
Speaker 1: got it?

423
00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:27,600
Speaker 3: This is his mother Mary.

424
00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:32,480
Speaker 2: So Keith had several forms of identification on him. But

425
00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:35,680
Speaker 2: yet and still she was not notified until several hours later.

426
00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:38,600
Speaker 2: I think we read it was like seven hours later

427
00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:42,679
Speaker 2: that she was notified that all of this happened. Apparently,

428
00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:46,600
Speaker 2: the officer went to the house, there was no one there.

429
00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:48,240
Speaker 2: Like I said, obviously she was at work. They went

430
00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:51,959
Speaker 2: to a neighbor's house and the neighbor said, well, Mary's

431
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:53,320
Speaker 2: not at home, she's at work.

432
00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:54,879
Speaker 3: Here, I can give you her work number.

433
00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:58,399
Speaker 2: She even offered, like, you can use my telephone, you

434
00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:00,000
Speaker 2: can call her at her job.

435
00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:01,600
Speaker 3: The officer did not call.

436
00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:05,840
Speaker 2: The officer did come to Mary's job many several hours

437
00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:10,359
Speaker 2: later and notified her about what had happened. You know,

438
00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:14,840
Speaker 2: I think the officer said to Mary that he committed suicide.

439
00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:17,719
Speaker 2: And from my reading of the events, it sounds like

440
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:20,960
Speaker 2: the officer said to Mary, is there any reason why

441
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:24,480
Speaker 2: you think your son may have ended his own life?

442
00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:27,520
Speaker 2: And in her I'm even at a loss for words,

443
00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:30,320
Speaker 2: like I can't even imagine what's going through her mind

444
00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:35,720
Speaker 2: when you're at work and you're being told this information. Confusion, hurt, anger, sadness,

445
00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:36,440
Speaker 2: all of the things.

446
00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:37,720
Speaker 1: Panic is probably the big one.

447
00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:40,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, panic, I mean all of it, So she says,

448
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:43,919
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't We had an argument about a car.

449
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:46,920
Speaker 2: You know, he was like buying a car and they

450
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:50,640
Speaker 2: had some little, you know, skirmish about a car. And

451
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:54,679
Speaker 2: so the officer took that and said, oh, well, this

452
00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:56,760
Speaker 2: must have been and I believe that they wrote that

453
00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:59,720
Speaker 2: in the report, like, oh, this is he ended his

454
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:04,359
Speaker 2: life after an argument with his parents about car. But

455
00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:07,520
Speaker 2: mind you that he had already declared it a suicide

456
00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:12,520
Speaker 2: even after or sorry, before that conversation with Mary. So

457
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:16,119
Speaker 2: at any rate, Mary comes home. They called the coroner

458
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:18,879
Speaker 2: ruled it a suicide, and they also ordered the body

459
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:22,879
Speaker 2: to be taken to Collin's funeral home in Silver Spring.

460
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:25,560
Speaker 2: So Mary calls the funeral home or goes to the

461
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:28,359
Speaker 2: funeral home. She also calls her brother in North Carolina

462
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:31,120
Speaker 2: and asks him to come help, you know, just come

463
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:33,880
Speaker 2: help her figure all of this out. And the funeral

464
00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:35,800
Speaker 2: home tells them that they can't see the body. This

465
00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:37,679
Speaker 2: is that night, that Thursday night. They tell them that

466
00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:41,560
Speaker 2: they can't see the body because it's decomposed and they

467
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:44,040
Speaker 2: have to prep the body so they can't see it.

468
00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:46,240
Speaker 2: They wanted to identify the body. They said, you can't

469
00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:47,840
Speaker 2: see it. You have to come back in the morning.

470
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:51,120
Speaker 2: They go back in the morning. They let them see

471
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:52,160
Speaker 2: the body briefly.

472
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:52,800
Speaker 3: You know.

473
00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:56,480
Speaker 2: According to the uncle Pete Harris, there was nothing like

474
00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:59,880
Speaker 2: decomposed about his body that we couldn't look at him,

475
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:02,600
Speaker 2: touch him, you know, or just you know, spend a

476
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:07,520
Speaker 2: little time. At any rate, they gave them supposedly what

477
00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:11,560
Speaker 2: was Keith's belongings, so they handed them the rope.

478
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:12,360
Speaker 3: Geez.

479
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:16,479
Speaker 2: Really, yeah, it's terrible. They gave him the rope and

480
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:19,520
Speaker 2: his boots and a couple of other artifacts that he had,

481
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:22,159
Speaker 2: you know, in his pockets or what heavy id and

482
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:24,720
Speaker 2: that kind of thing. They gave that to him. It's

483
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:28,400
Speaker 2: a sad situation all around, and everyone is grieving obviously.

484
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:30,760
Speaker 2: Like I said, there's there's these questions that are going

485
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:34,359
Speaker 2: through their head where they're saying something about this doesn't

486
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:37,320
Speaker 2: feel right a black man in the woods, you know.

487
00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:40,240
Speaker 2: Even according to Dallas Lip, who was the EMT on

488
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:43,440
Speaker 2: the scene, he said that when he arrived at the scene,

489
00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:45,720
Speaker 2: it almost looked like Keith was sitting down.

490
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:47,679
Speaker 3: You know. They said that he jumped off of a log.

491
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:51,160
Speaker 2: There was no log that was anywhere in that vicinity.

492
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:54,040
Speaker 2: So there were already these things that were sort of

493
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:57,639
Speaker 2: like red flags. But the family at that time, they

494
00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:01,800
Speaker 2: are these red flags and they're going something doesn't feel right.

495
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 2: But Mary Cooey, I think, you know, she had always

496
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 2: been trying to find out what was the you know,

497
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:10,920
Speaker 2: what really happened. But there was also this part of them,

498
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:13,080
Speaker 2: you know, maybe not so much for Mary, but I

499
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 2: think for some people in the family in the community,

500
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:18,720
Speaker 2: it was like, I guess that's what happened, you know,

501
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:21,280
Speaker 2: and you know, let's move on. Definitely for the police department,

502
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:23,280
Speaker 2: they thought that, you know, that was the end of

503
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:27,119
Speaker 2: the story. So Mary spent the next few years just

504
00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:30,640
Speaker 2: trying to act on that instinct that something was not right.

505
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:36,240
Speaker 2: Cut forward to nineteen ninety two. Sherry and Mary Cooey

506
00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:39,320
Speaker 2: are at home and they get a knock on the

507
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:42,359
Speaker 2: door and they go into the door and there is

508
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:46,680
Speaker 2: an anonymous envelope with no return address, but it's just

509
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:50,000
Speaker 2: an envelope left on their door, and their copies of

510
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:53,639
Speaker 2: the photographs of Keith on that day when he was

511
00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:55,760
Speaker 2: found hanging from the tree.

512
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:58,160
Speaker 1: They had seen those, right, the police had showed them or.

513
00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:02,200
Speaker 2: No, no, nuts they had not seen those pictures.

514
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:04,080
Speaker 3: Awful, So they get these.

515
00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 2: Photos and immediately a number of additional alarm bells start

516
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:14,000
Speaker 2: to ring out, one being his shoes. He has on

517
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:17,160
Speaker 2: a pair of white tennis shoes. Whose shoes are these?

518
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:18,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, not the boots.

519
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:21,160
Speaker 2: Not the boots. Well, because then they had already given

520
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:23,639
Speaker 2: back the boots and they said these are this is

521
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:26,280
Speaker 2: what he had on the day of the that he

522
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:29,199
Speaker 2: was found. But you're looking at these photos and he

523
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:32,440
Speaker 2: has on white tennis shoes. He has on clothes. It's

524
00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:35,200
Speaker 2: the middle of July. He has on this long sleeve shirt.

525
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:37,680
Speaker 2: It doesn't even fit him. He left the house in

526
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:39,800
Speaker 2: a pair of shorts. Now he has on a pair

527
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 2: of jeans and a button down long sleeve shirt. There's

528
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:48,440
Speaker 2: a person standing in the background. He's sitting on the floor.

529
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:52,120
Speaker 2: You can see the ties of the rope and the

530
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 2: way that it's tied. Even the branch that he's supposedly

531
00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:59,200
Speaker 2: hanging from wouldn't support him in order for him to

532
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:01,280
Speaker 2: be able to hang him. So so a lot more

533
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:06,280
Speaker 2: inconsistency started coming out through those photos, And honestly, I

534
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:10,080
Speaker 2: think that the photos are kind of what reopened this

535
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:15,360
Speaker 2: case in the eyes of the Warren family, but also

536
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:18,000
Speaker 2: in terms of the media. That's when the media kind

537
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:22,040
Speaker 2: of then started to take notice and started reporting on

538
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:24,360
Speaker 2: this incident, because at that time, in nineteen eighty six,

539
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:27,160
Speaker 2: there was no report. We didn't find any there's no

540
00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 2: news stories at all about what happened to Keith in

541
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:34,360
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty six. So when this happened with the photographs,

542
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:37,640
Speaker 2: this is what kind of opened up the case, reopened

543
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:41,760
Speaker 2: the case, and started this chain reaction of a slew

544
00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:45,080
Speaker 2: of other events that took place of this family trying

545
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:48,640
Speaker 2: to get to the bottom of what happened and essentially

546
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:52,240
Speaker 2: trying to get the Montgomery County Police Department to admit

547
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:55,760
Speaker 2: that it was mishandled in the beginning because there was

548
00:29:55,840 --> 00:30:00,640
Speaker 2: no autopsy. There was no autopsy conducted, And at the

549
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 2: end of the day, I feel like all of the

550
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:05,640
Speaker 2: issues and all of the red flags and all of

551
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,720
Speaker 2: the question marks surrounding this case come back to that

552
00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:14,280
Speaker 2: there was no autopsy, there was no investigation conducted at

553
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:18,320
Speaker 2: the scene at all, and there's nothing to go back.

554
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:24,280
Speaker 1: To when you spoke to Mary and Sherry, Were those

555
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:25,920
Speaker 1: your two main sources, do you think?

556
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:28,680
Speaker 2: So we didn't speak to Mary because she had died

557
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:31,880
Speaker 2: passed away in two thousand and nine. Sorry, so she

558
00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:37,320
Speaker 2: died not knowing what was happening, but Mary Kuei kept

559
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:43,200
Speaker 2: such detailed notes of everything. When we first came on

560
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 2: the scene and we first went to Sherry's house, Sherry

561
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 2: has in her basement boxes and boxes of documents.

562
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:53,840
Speaker 3: It's documents upon documents upon documents.

563
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:59,080
Speaker 2: Every single letter she wrote, every single you know, correspondence,

564
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:01,760
Speaker 2: every single phone call.

565
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 3: Even she documented everything.

566
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:09,520
Speaker 2: So I kind of felt like I had Mary's voice

567
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:13,000
Speaker 2: through her writings and through all of the things that

568
00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:16,600
Speaker 2: she saved. And so between that and then some of

569
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:18,480
Speaker 2: the people who were in the series that knew her,

570
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 2: like Darryl Davis, Dell Walters, you know, one of her

571
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:25,720
Speaker 2: close friends also who doesn't appear in the dock, but

572
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:28,280
Speaker 2: she was someone that we talked to a lot. So

573
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:30,680
Speaker 2: it was like, through all of these accounts, this is

574
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 2: kind of how we pieced together Mary's point of view

575
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:35,720
Speaker 2: the best that we could. But a big part of

576
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:40,440
Speaker 2: that came through Sherry. So our big source of information

577
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 2: was Sherry, and also Mary's detailed documentation of everything that

578
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:48,680
Speaker 2: had taken place starting in nineteen eighty six.

579
00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 1: So, I mean, I know that you're looking at these

580
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:55,640
Speaker 1: photos and it is so odd based on what Mary

581
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:57,680
Speaker 1: had said, and what Sherry was confirming to you, I

582
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:01,040
Speaker 1: mean clothes and all of that stuff. And you're still

583
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:04,240
Speaker 1: evaluating as you're doing this series, you still have to evaluate,

584
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:07,959
Speaker 1: you know, as in journalism, we're having to evaluate both sides.

585
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:13,360
Speaker 1: Do you feel like Sherry was open with you and

586
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:17,400
Speaker 1: the crew one hundred percent about any kind of red

587
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:20,720
Speaker 1: flags besides this dumb fight. It sounds like any kind

588
00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 1: of red flags coming from Keith about any kind of

589
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:27,600
Speaker 1: mental health struggles or anything like that. I mean, did

590
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:30,400
Speaker 1: you feel like, Okay, she is putting it all out there,

591
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:34,560
Speaker 1: or was this rainbows and bunny rabbits in his life

592
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:35,320
Speaker 1: was perfect?

593
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 3: No, not at all.

594
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 2: That was one of the first things that Sherry said

595
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:42,560
Speaker 2: to us, is that you know she could accept any

596
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:42,760
Speaker 2: of that.

597
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:45,840
Speaker 3: Cherry was like, I'm not perfect, He's not.

598
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:48,640
Speaker 2: You know. There was never a moment where she was

599
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:52,520
Speaker 2: trying to paint this picture that he was Saint Keith,

600
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:56,600
Speaker 2: you know, or anyone from that for that matter. But

601
00:32:56,840 --> 00:33:01,280
Speaker 2: she would always say, but even that doesn't take away

602
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:05,320
Speaker 2: from the fact that there was no autopsy conducted. Yeah,

603
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:08,280
Speaker 2: do you know what I mean? So like, even even

604
00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 2: if he did, that can be any number of speculations

605
00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:16,240
Speaker 2: about what Keith did, who Keith was, who he dated,

606
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:19,560
Speaker 2: and that stuff comes up, you know, even even amongst

607
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:23,320
Speaker 2: ourselves of like maybe he was dating somebody he shouldn't

608
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:26,560
Speaker 2: have dated, and they were coming after her.

609
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:27,520
Speaker 3: Whatever.

610
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:30,520
Speaker 2: You know, there's so many things. Maybe there maybe he

611
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:33,960
Speaker 2: had a mental break, maybe there's there's so many roads

612
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:37,920
Speaker 2: you could go down. But it doesn't negate the fact

613
00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:42,440
Speaker 2: that there was no autopsy, that there was no investigation,

614
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 2: and so Sherry, So Sherry was very open about that, like,

615
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:50,080
Speaker 2: you know, okay, I'll take that if something is found

616
00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:53,280
Speaker 2: he did something, or there was an argument or something.

617
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:58,120
Speaker 2: How does that negate doing a proper investigation on how

618
00:33:58,160 --> 00:33:58,680
Speaker 2: he died?

619
00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:02,240
Speaker 1: Right? Yeah? And I think that's such an interesting takeaway because,

620
00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:05,240
Speaker 1: especially when I talk to people about missing people or

621
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:08,880
Speaker 1: unsolved cases, they are making that big point, we want justice,

622
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:11,160
Speaker 1: we want the person behind bars. We know this was murder,

623
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:14,760
Speaker 1: and so it's interesting that this is not how Sherry

624
00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:17,880
Speaker 1: and her mother felt. So let me just talk about

625
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:20,080
Speaker 1: a little bit about forensics and your impression of all

626
00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:23,760
Speaker 1: of this. This bizarro nine to one one call where

627
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:27,560
Speaker 1: the EMS thought that there was a dead body in

628
00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:30,879
Speaker 1: a basement and as a reminder to listeners eighty six

629
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:33,800
Speaker 1: no cell phones, So this is a slower process. You

630
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:35,880
Speaker 1: you know, call nine one one and you're trying to

631
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:37,760
Speaker 1: get a hold of Mary, and if she's in the bathroom,

632
00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:39,400
Speaker 1: she's going to miss that call and all of that.

633
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:43,560
Speaker 1: So there's this call saying that there's a body in

634
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:46,719
Speaker 1: the basement, that that's what they heard. Did anybody in

635
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:51,400
Speaker 1: that house who seemed very wishy washy with ems person

636
00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:53,200
Speaker 1: on the crutches and you know, we don't want to

637
00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:56,600
Speaker 1: go back out there, did anybody come under suspicion or

638
00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:59,120
Speaker 1: do you feel like there was any reason that this

639
00:34:59,360 --> 00:34:59,920
Speaker 1: was odd?

640
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:04,400
Speaker 2: Absolutely? Absolutely, I do think it was odd. One of

641
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:10,240
Speaker 2: the people in that house knew Keith. Yeah, and so yeah,

642
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 2: I wonder if there was some kind of flub there

643
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:16,799
Speaker 2: with saying, oh basement, oh woods, you know what did

644
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:20,400
Speaker 2: they know? You know what, what does this person know

645
00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:24,160
Speaker 2: that made them flub in that way? But yeah, they

646
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:28,800
Speaker 2: one of the people in that house knew Keith. It

647
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:32,000
Speaker 2: was very bizarre. And even even the whole the way

648
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:37,120
Speaker 2: that the EMT describes that scene just is a red

649
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:39,879
Speaker 2: flag to me, like, why is there such a skifuffle

650
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:43,160
Speaker 2: about who's gonna take him to the body, and who

651
00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:46,439
Speaker 2: who called? And who's gonna take him? Like why why

652
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:50,800
Speaker 2: is this such a somebody called? You know who called?

653
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:54,640
Speaker 2: And just just take them there? Like, whoever called? Just

654
00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:58,000
Speaker 2: take them there? Like why is this such a you know,

655
00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:00,480
Speaker 2: will you take them? No, you're taken you And I

656
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:04,400
Speaker 2: I'm sure it is traumatic in its own way to

657
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:08,560
Speaker 2: be walking through the woods and you know, find this

658
00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:09,359
Speaker 2: body there.

659
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:10,200
Speaker 3: You know what.

660
00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:13,640
Speaker 2: We interviewed Rodney Kendall, who was who also lived in

661
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 2: Georgian colonies and was called to to come in and

662
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:19,520
Speaker 2: and and identify this body, you know, while Keith was

663
00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:22,600
Speaker 2: still in the woods. And I think he's still traumatized

664
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:26,040
Speaker 2: to this day, Like it's it's got to do something

665
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:29,399
Speaker 2: to you to see that. So I can imagine even

666
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:32,120
Speaker 2: when the EMT shows up at the door, whoever, you know,

667
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:34,520
Speaker 2: the person who made the initial phone call, I'm sure

668
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:36,000
Speaker 2: there's a level of like, I don't want to go

669
00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:39,560
Speaker 2: back and see that, right, but it's still it still

670
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:43,000
Speaker 2: feels a little weird that you made this call and

671
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:46,759
Speaker 2: you can't remember if it's brasement or woods, and you know,

672
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:48,840
Speaker 2: and now there's this whole back and forth about who's

673
00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:51,680
Speaker 2: gonna who's gonna go? You know, it just seems really

674
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:54,879
Speaker 2: especially if you've come across this body and you know that,

675
00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:56,960
Speaker 2: you know you have the e MT here, there's a

676
00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:00,560
Speaker 2: possibility that maybe a life could be saved, maybe, and

677
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:03,399
Speaker 2: like you're spending time, you know, going back and forth

678
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:05,040
Speaker 2: about who's going to lead the way.

679
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:07,800
Speaker 1: A couple more questions about the folks in the house.

680
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:11,440
Speaker 1: Did you figure out what the relationship was between the

681
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:13,680
Speaker 1: person in the house and Keith? Was just this an

682
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:16,680
Speaker 1: acquaintance from around the area? Yeah, No, one close to

683
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:18,960
Speaker 1: him then, yeah, yeah, yeah, it was more of an acquaintance.

684
00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:19,480
Speaker 3: They weren't.

685
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:21,839
Speaker 2: They weren't like, you know, close friends. It was more

686
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:24,719
Speaker 2: of just an acquaintance from from around the way. And

687
00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:27,360
Speaker 2: I think that they they may have had like mutual friends,

688
00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:29,719
Speaker 2: so you know, Keith may have been closer friends with

689
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:32,600
Speaker 2: someone who knew him, but it was it was more

690
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:33,560
Speaker 2: just an acquaintance.

691
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:36,560
Speaker 1: So he did not tell his mother or his sister

692
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:39,359
Speaker 1: who the friends were. When he left, he just said

693
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:41,440
Speaker 1: I'm going, and that was normal for Keith. He was

694
00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:43,320
Speaker 1: just saying, I'm bouncing out of here, I'll see you

695
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:45,359
Speaker 1: a little bit, I'll be home before Dorric or something.

696
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:45,640
Speaker 3: Yeah.

697
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:48,440
Speaker 2: No, yeah, he didn't tell. He didn't say who he

698
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:51,600
Speaker 2: was going with. He just left the house. I mean

699
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:55,399
Speaker 2: he had kind of a circle of friends, if you will,

700
00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:58,319
Speaker 2: like Sherry tells the story about. You know, they were

701
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:02,560
Speaker 2: always over the house that would just come over and eat,

702
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:06,279
Speaker 2: play games, or watch TV or whatever. But no, to

703
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:09,680
Speaker 2: our knowledge, he did not say I'm going to such

704
00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:11,839
Speaker 2: and such as house or anything like that.

705
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:13,960
Speaker 1: So I don't know if you know the answer to this.

706
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:17,759
Speaker 1: But did they know what the distance was between this

707
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:21,600
Speaker 1: woman who found his body between her house and the woods?

708
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:23,160
Speaker 1: How long of a walk was this? Do you have

709
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:23,680
Speaker 1: any idea?

710
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:27,960
Speaker 2: It's a little hard to say because, especially in us

711
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:31,959
Speaker 2: investigating it now, that area of woods is now it's

712
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:33,640
Speaker 2: built up, it's a housing development.

713
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:37,440
Speaker 1: Now, what I was getting at is if something happened

714
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:39,680
Speaker 1: in the basement and we don't know what happened. You know,

715
00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:42,680
Speaker 1: he's wearing odd clothes. This is this a nighttime thing?

716
00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:44,919
Speaker 1: I can't remember when you what's the timeframe that we're

717
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:47,479
Speaker 1: talking about when he was discovered versus when he left

718
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:49,120
Speaker 1: the house, When was up.

719
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:50,520
Speaker 3: He was he left at night?

720
00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:53,960
Speaker 2: He or it was almost night when he left and

721
00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:56,279
Speaker 2: when his body was found, I want to say it

722
00:38:56,400 --> 00:39:00,320
Speaker 2: was more morning of Thursday, like that Thursday. So he

723
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:02,960
Speaker 2: left on a Tuesday, and then that Thursday was when

724
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:04,919
Speaker 2: he was found Thursday, the thirty first.

725
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:07,440
Speaker 1: Is this a rural part of the woods? I mean,

726
00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:09,719
Speaker 1: how could he not have been obviously not off a

727
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:13,239
Speaker 1: major trail, otherwise somebody would have seen him right right.

728
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:17,640
Speaker 2: Again, it's it's hard to get a sense of what

729
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:21,200
Speaker 2: those woods look like at that time. But from what

730
00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:23,560
Speaker 2: I from what I gathered from the interviews that we've done,

731
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:26,000
Speaker 2: it doesn't It didn't sound like it was he was

732
00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:28,120
Speaker 2: like deep in the woods, Like he was like back

733
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:28,640
Speaker 2: up in there.

734
00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:30,200
Speaker 3: This woman was walking her dog.

735
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:32,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, a woman was walking her dog, so

736
00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:35,520
Speaker 2: you know, and she comes across this body. So again,

737
00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:38,399
Speaker 2: like I'm not sure how deep those woods went at

738
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:42,399
Speaker 2: that particular time, but I don't get the sense that

739
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:45,320
Speaker 2: it was like they were far off of a beaten path.

740
00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:47,640
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't. I don't think that anyone.

741
00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:51,480
Speaker 2: You know, if you were casually driving through that development,

742
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:53,839
Speaker 2: you probably wouldn't be able to see it. But if

743
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:56,840
Speaker 2: you walked a few steps in and you were walking

744
00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:59,000
Speaker 2: a dog, you would be able to see.

745
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:01,440
Speaker 1: This, Okay, So I mean I guess what I had

746
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:03,880
Speaker 1: been thinking was that something happened in the basement, and

747
00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:08,440
Speaker 1: it happened at night. Could they have conceivably carried him

748
00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:11,799
Speaker 1: dead strangled, you know, from this house into wherever he

749
00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:14,080
Speaker 1: was found in the woods. It's risky, but if it's

750
00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:15,600
Speaker 1: in the middle of the night, two or three in

751
00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:17,480
Speaker 1: the morning, I guess that's what I was thinking. But

752
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:19,799
Speaker 1: it does sound kind of complicated to sort out what

753
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:21,840
Speaker 1: that distance would be. And I mean, if you have

754
00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:24,640
Speaker 1: enough people, you can carry one person anywhere if you

755
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:25,080
Speaker 1: need it to.

756
00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:27,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, again, it's it's hard.

757
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:30,680
Speaker 2: One of our big challenges with the show is trying

758
00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:34,160
Speaker 2: to piece together what this neighborhood used to look like,

759
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:38,080
Speaker 2: and trying to piece it together through people who won't

760
00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:40,480
Speaker 2: talk to you, yeah, you know, in terms of like

761
00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:43,200
Speaker 2: the people who were there, and then trying to piece

762
00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:45,840
Speaker 2: it together also with you know, someone like the EMT

763
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:49,239
Speaker 2: who was very open about what he saw, but you know,

764
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:52,040
Speaker 2: he came after the fact, right right. But one of

765
00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:54,520
Speaker 2: the things we did learn is that the way that

766
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:57,560
Speaker 2: the community used to be sort of designed at the

767
00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:02,840
Speaker 2: time was the woods were sort of behind the houses.

768
00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:06,840
Speaker 2: So now there's so many, you know, housing developments that

769
00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:09,600
Speaker 2: are there that everything is kind of like back to back.

770
00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:13,800
Speaker 2: So when you look when you're in someone's backyard, for example,

771
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:16,160
Speaker 2: you're looking at more house, there's like a little bit

772
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:20,239
Speaker 2: of woods, but it's like more houses. And my understanding

773
00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:23,200
Speaker 2: is that it used to be that it was just

774
00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:25,359
Speaker 2: all woods back there, So I guess before that other

775
00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:30,520
Speaker 2: development was built. So that has gone through our mind

776
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:33,359
Speaker 2: that that could be a possibility that something happened in

777
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:37,080
Speaker 2: that house in the basement and Keith was dragged out

778
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:39,120
Speaker 2: into the woods out the back.

779
00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:41,879
Speaker 1: It could have been anything. They could have drugged him,

780
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:44,680
Speaker 1: he could have been drunk, because they never did toxicology

781
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:46,040
Speaker 1: or anything on him exactly.

782
00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:48,400
Speaker 2: So after the photos were found in nineteen ninety two,

783
00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:52,160
Speaker 2: it kind of kicked off this new investment.

784
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:52,720
Speaker 3: It was Liker.

785
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:55,040
Speaker 2: It made it brand new and now you know Mary,

786
00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:58,880
Speaker 2: it kind of solidified or confirmed everything that Mary and

787
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:01,960
Speaker 2: Sherry had been thinking all along that something was not right,

788
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:03,640
Speaker 2: and that's how they you know, they went back to

789
00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:06,040
Speaker 2: the police station, but also they went to local news

790
00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:08,279
Speaker 2: and you know, they started reporting about it. At any rate,

791
00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:11,920
Speaker 2: they actually had the body exhumed because they were like,

792
00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:13,560
Speaker 2: we're going to do our own autopsy.

793
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:14,080
Speaker 1: Wow.

794
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:18,080
Speaker 2: So they had their body, they raised money and had

795
00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:21,839
Speaker 2: the body exumed and got you know, forensics to do

796
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:25,680
Speaker 2: a an autopsy. So mind you this was several years later.

797
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:30,560
Speaker 2: But they found high doses of TCE in his system.

798
00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:33,200
Speaker 2: There were things found in his system that it's like

799
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:36,480
Speaker 2: it could be embalming, it could not be embalming, like

800
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:40,120
Speaker 2: it's it raised some red flags about what was in

801
00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:43,920
Speaker 2: his system. And so going back to your to your point,

802
00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:47,520
Speaker 2: there is a possibility there. I think that something maybe

803
00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:50,160
Speaker 2: happened in the house. Maybe he was at a party

804
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:52,759
Speaker 2: and maybe he was poisoned.

805
00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:54,720
Speaker 3: Maybe maybe it was drugs.

806
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:57,279
Speaker 2: We don't know, but there could have been something that

807
00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:01,239
Speaker 2: happened there. If it's a bunch of teenagers going, oh

808
00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:04,160
Speaker 2: my god, you know, freaking out, oh crap, like what happened,

809
00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:07,120
Speaker 2: and they take him out and stage it to look

810
00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:09,960
Speaker 2: like it was something other than what it was, it's

811
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:14,600
Speaker 2: a possibility. But again because there was no initial autopsy done. Yeah,

812
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:16,200
Speaker 2: we don't know who had.

813
00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:18,360
Speaker 1: Is this are these police photos? Who had access to

814
00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:21,080
Speaker 1: these photos six years later that they could have anonymously

815
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:24,240
Speaker 1: dropped them off? Is it just the police do you think.

816
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:25,960
Speaker 3: That's a good question?

817
00:43:26,239 --> 00:43:30,880
Speaker 2: And you know, another question that has never really been answered.

818
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:35,000
Speaker 2: I mean, these were copies, the ones that were dropped

819
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:38,920
Speaker 2: off at Mary's house were copies of police photos. So

820
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:42,160
Speaker 2: that's also been a question you know throughout, is like

821
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:44,440
Speaker 2: was this an inside job? Was this someone at the

822
00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:48,279
Speaker 2: police department who realized something was awry and tried to

823
00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:50,279
Speaker 2: give tip them off and give them a heads up?

824
00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:52,160
Speaker 3: Who could have left these?

825
00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:55,040
Speaker 2: There were no there was no return address left, right,

826
00:43:55,560 --> 00:43:58,080
Speaker 2: So it's just very odd, like who would do that

827
00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:00,279
Speaker 2: and what? And it was The other thid part about

828
00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:03,799
Speaker 2: it is it was on Keith's birthday, which I don't know,

829
00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:07,319
Speaker 2: it could be a coincidence that it was left that day,

830
00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:08,879
Speaker 2: but that's so.

831
00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:13,440
Speaker 1: Specific something is happening with his friends, because that's that's weird.

832
00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:17,239
Speaker 1: One thing that is always been a tragedy because I

833
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:19,520
Speaker 1: you know, I told you, you know, I work most

834
00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:23,160
Speaker 1: of the time with historical crimes. What is so frustrating

835
00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:26,440
Speaker 1: to me is what could be done now in these

836
00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:29,000
Speaker 1: kind of crimes. And it's just I mean, you know,

837
00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:31,880
Speaker 1: I know enough about you know, strangling with rope, where

838
00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:34,640
Speaker 1: you've got somebody gripping on and you know, you can

839
00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:37,359
Speaker 1: sometimes get DNA because that person's trying to get out

840
00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:39,920
Speaker 1: of the rope, right and they might scratch them. And that,

841
00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:43,040
Speaker 1: to me is the tragic part of this is if

842
00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:45,479
Speaker 1: they had just done some simple things, some swabs under

843
00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:49,320
Speaker 1: his nails, something like that, I mean, anything that would

844
00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:51,640
Speaker 1: have been difficult. I'm going to ask one more thing

845
00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:54,200
Speaker 1: that I had forgotten to ask. So the police, nobody's

846
00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:57,480
Speaker 1: reported any kind of at the funeral home, nobody reported

847
00:44:57,480 --> 00:44:59,319
Speaker 1: any kind of trauma on him, right, Like there's no

848
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:01,880
Speaker 1: bruises or scratches or anything weird like that.

849
00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:05,440
Speaker 2: No, And it's weird because you know, like I said earlier,

850
00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:08,279
Speaker 2: the funeral home said that his body was decomposed and

851
00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:09,960
Speaker 2: you can't come and see the body and all this

852
00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:13,359
Speaker 2: kind of stuff. But like, there wasn't any reports of

853
00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:17,600
Speaker 2: any scratches, you know. We talked to Roger Mitchell, who

854
00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:20,920
Speaker 2: is a medical examiner. He now works at Howard University

855
00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:23,719
Speaker 2: and he's in the dock. But he talks about those

856
00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:27,879
Speaker 2: signs of strangulation when they did that autopsy. You can

857
00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:30,200
Speaker 2: look at the signs. You can look at the neck,

858
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:33,000
Speaker 2: you can look at blood vessels, you can none of

859
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:39,480
Speaker 2: these were obstructed his neck, his spine, his chest, his eyes.

860
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:45,960
Speaker 2: Nothing indicated strangulation, you know, or hanging. There was there

861
00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:49,640
Speaker 2: was no evidence of that in that report. So that's

862
00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:53,560
Speaker 2: another thing of like a red flag that just physically

863
00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:59,320
Speaker 2: the body, his body did not show signs of doing

864
00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:00,279
Speaker 2: that to himself.

865
00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:04,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, it doesn't add up with the exception of Mary

866
00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:08,160
Speaker 1: and Sherry. You must know more about this case than

867
00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:11,880
Speaker 1: anybody else. What is your sense about what happened? I mean,

868
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:14,200
Speaker 1: just flat out what do you think? What is the

869
00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:17,200
Speaker 1: most plausible thing that happened to Keith that night?

870
00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:20,200
Speaker 2: The best thing I can say, I do think something

871
00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:24,239
Speaker 2: happened with his friends. I think something happened that night,

872
00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:27,200
Speaker 2: whether it was a party, whether it was just a

873
00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:31,440
Speaker 2: gathering or something I can't put my finger on, you know,

874
00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:35,600
Speaker 2: what the event was and why, meaning was it an

875
00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:39,080
Speaker 2: argument or you know, or just playing around and something

876
00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:42,000
Speaker 2: went awry. But I do think something happened that night

877
00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:45,080
Speaker 2: with his friends. My sense is that these friends were

878
00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:49,759
Speaker 2: trying to cover up something whatever. They were trying to

879
00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:53,200
Speaker 2: cover up whatever happened in that house so that they

880
00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:56,640
Speaker 2: wouldn't get in trouble for whatever. I'm not, you know,

881
00:46:56,719 --> 00:46:58,160
Speaker 2: like I said, it could have been an accident. It

882
00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:00,640
Speaker 2: could have or maybe it was malicious. But I think

883
00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:03,360
Speaker 2: that they were trying to cover up something that happened,

884
00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:05,520
Speaker 2: and in them trying to cover it, I think they

885
00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:08,719
Speaker 2: did a botch job in trying to cover it up

886
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:12,800
Speaker 2: by making it look like he tied himself to a tree.

887
00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:14,040
Speaker 3: And on top of.

888
00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:17,520
Speaker 2: That, you had a police department who did not do

889
00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:21,200
Speaker 2: what they were supposed to do, and you know, arrived

890
00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:23,399
Speaker 2: on the scene and then you know, say, oh, we're

891
00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:26,680
Speaker 2: just gonna sweep this under the rug. We're gonna label

892
00:47:26,719 --> 00:47:29,440
Speaker 2: it this way, and let's all move on with our lives.

893
00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:32,560
Speaker 2: There's also I mean, I won't go into all of this,

894
00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:35,800
Speaker 2: but there's rumors and there's talks about the police department,

895
00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:39,520
Speaker 2: the Montgomery County Police Department. The officer in particular, does

896
00:47:39,560 --> 00:47:41,719
Speaker 2: he know the people, you know, in terms of the

897
00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:44,520
Speaker 2: people who were in that house, you know. So I

898
00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:47,359
Speaker 2: just think that something happened in the house, they tried

899
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:49,600
Speaker 2: to cover it up, and in their trying to cover

900
00:47:49,640 --> 00:47:53,040
Speaker 2: it up, the police came and covered up the cover up.

901
00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:56,359
Speaker 2: So I think that there were multiple things happening in

902
00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:59,839
Speaker 2: this case, and everything just went around and I think

903
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:04,279
Speaker 2: everything went awry, especially when the photos showed up at

904
00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:05,080
Speaker 2: Mary Coui's store.

905
00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:09,759
Speaker 1: You said that those photos kind of reignited this investigation.

906
00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:13,759
Speaker 1: Is Keith's case an open case right now? With silver Spring.

907
00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:16,000
Speaker 3: Even that is a big question mark.

908
00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:19,040
Speaker 2: So at the time when we were doing this series,

909
00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:22,200
Speaker 2: when you talk to Chief Manger, who was the chief

910
00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:24,719
Speaker 2: of police at that time, he would say, Oh, yes,

911
00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:28,400
Speaker 2: the police messed up. The police have botched up this case.

912
00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:30,120
Speaker 2: We're going to reopen the case. But then when you

913
00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:32,880
Speaker 2: talk to the Montgomery County Police Department, they say it's closed.

914
00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:37,000
Speaker 2: So even within their own department, there's not an agreement

915
00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:38,960
Speaker 2: on whether the case is open or not.

916
00:48:39,360 --> 00:48:40,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, So I would.

917
00:48:40,719 --> 00:48:43,080
Speaker 2: Imagine that if today, if we were to go to

918
00:48:43,160 --> 00:48:46,000
Speaker 2: Montgomery County and ask the police department, they'd probably say

919
00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:48,640
Speaker 2: the case is closed. Yeah, But like I said, there's

920
00:48:48,719 --> 00:48:53,840
Speaker 2: discrepancy there on whether it's officially an open or close case.

921
00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:58,319
Speaker 1: If someone has information on what happened to you know,

922
00:48:58,400 --> 00:49:00,719
Speaker 1: Keith Warren, what should be done? How would they be

923
00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:02,000
Speaker 1: able to pass on information?

924
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:04,440
Speaker 2: Do you think I think a good way is to,

925
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:07,000
Speaker 2: you know, contact Sherry Warren.

926
00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:08,440
Speaker 3: You can contact myself, you.

927
00:49:08,440 --> 00:49:11,759
Speaker 2: Can get you know, if anyone has any type of information,

928
00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:15,160
Speaker 2: even though you know, like I said, their whole thing

929
00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:18,240
Speaker 2: was not to find out, you always want that closure.

930
00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:22,319
Speaker 2: If someone knows anything by all means, I would say,

931
00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:26,040
Speaker 2: reach out to any of us first. Like you said,

932
00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:29,440
Speaker 2: I don't know that reaching out to the police department

933
00:49:29,480 --> 00:49:33,040
Speaker 2: would be the way to go initially, But if there's

934
00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:35,520
Speaker 2: anyone that wanted to talk or that or that was

935
00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:38,319
Speaker 2: a witness on that night, or you know, just has

936
00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:41,840
Speaker 2: any information that they could share, by all means, please

937
00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:42,400
Speaker 2: let us know.

938
00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:46,080
Speaker 1: Gosh, I hope that something happens, especially if this is murder,

939
00:49:46,160 --> 00:49:49,400
Speaker 1: there's somebody out there that either knows something more than

940
00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:53,680
Speaker 1: we do or did something very bad to this young

941
00:49:53,719 --> 00:49:56,239
Speaker 1: man who is going to college. Sounds like he has

942
00:49:56,280 --> 00:49:59,359
Speaker 1: a wonderful future. So you know, my hope is with

943
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:01,799
Speaker 1: this show, with you know, people watching, I mean, I

944
00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:04,759
Speaker 1: just watched your show. It's out there. I'm hoping that

945
00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:08,439
Speaker 1: something new comes. And it's so awful that Mary died

946
00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:12,200
Speaker 1: without having any answers. But let's hope that Sherry in you,

947
00:50:12,239 --> 00:50:15,160
Speaker 1: because you're invested in this, can finally get some kind

948
00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:16,560
Speaker 1: of closure to the story.

949
00:50:17,120 --> 00:50:19,640
Speaker 2: Yes, that would be amazing, and it would be a

950
00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:23,160
Speaker 2: big Like you said, you use the right word is closure.

951
00:50:23,440 --> 00:50:26,320
Speaker 2: You know, just that sense of just finding out what happened.

952
00:50:26,680 --> 00:50:29,319
Speaker 2: There's just so many loose threads, just yeah, to find

953
00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:31,600
Speaker 2: out answers would be a huge help.

954
00:50:31,840 --> 00:50:34,040
Speaker 1: I would imagine it would be like having somebody who's

955
00:50:34,080 --> 00:50:36,000
Speaker 1: missing and you've never found the body, but you just

956
00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:39,560
Speaker 1: know they're gone, they're dead, but you've never located the body.

957
00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:42,719
Speaker 1: I mean that level of like emptiness, and I'm so

958
00:50:42,840 --> 00:50:45,520
Speaker 1: sorry that Mary died without being able to feel that.

959
00:50:45,880 --> 00:50:46,400
Speaker 3: Yeah.

960
00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:49,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's very sad. It's very sad that she was

961
00:50:49,160 --> 00:50:51,400
Speaker 2: never able to get to the body. You know, she

962
00:50:52,120 --> 00:50:56,040
Speaker 2: died fighting this. She died trying to figure out you know,

963
00:50:56,080 --> 00:50:58,480
Speaker 2: that's cherry believe, because it was like a really weird,

964
00:50:58,920 --> 00:51:02,400
Speaker 2: mysterious illness that she came down with and she died

965
00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:05,080
Speaker 2: like within a matter of days. It just happened so fast.

966
00:51:05,640 --> 00:51:07,560
Speaker 2: And the thinking is that it's just you know, you

967
00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:12,000
Speaker 2: build up that stress and anger and hurt and sometimes

968
00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:14,640
Speaker 2: it manifests itself in the body. And I do believe

969
00:51:14,680 --> 00:51:17,759
Speaker 2: that she died trying to get to the bottom of

970
00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:20,319
Speaker 2: this and trying to find out what happened, which is

971
00:51:20,360 --> 00:51:23,440
Speaker 2: why I was so grateful for Sherry of you know,

972
00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:26,600
Speaker 2: picking up the mantle and carrying it forward and going

973
00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:29,720
Speaker 2: through this whole process of reliving everything for this docu

974
00:51:29,840 --> 00:51:32,880
Speaker 2: series and kind of taking up that mantle for her mom.

975
00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:36,120
Speaker 2: It's very unfortunate that she passed not knowing.

976
00:51:47,520 --> 00:51:50,440
Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the

977
00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:53,319
Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That

978
00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:56,680
Speaker 1: Is Wicked, and American Sherlock and Don't Forget. There are

979
00:51:56,760 --> 00:52:00,560
Speaker 1: twelve seasons of my historical true crime podcast to More

980
00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:04,239
Speaker 1: Wicked right here in this podcast feed, scroll back and

981
00:52:04,239 --> 00:52:07,000
Speaker 1: give them a listen if you haven't already. This has

982
00:52:07,080 --> 00:52:10,800
Speaker 1: been an exactly right production. Our senior producer is Alexis

983
00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:15,719
Speaker 1: a Morosi. Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. This episode

984
00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:19,320
Speaker 1: was mixed by John Bradley. Curtis Heath is our composer,

985
00:52:19,600 --> 00:52:24,080
Speaker 1: artwork by Nick Toga. Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen

986
00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:28,520
Speaker 1: Kilgariff and Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram at

987
00:52:28,600 --> 00:52:32,640
Speaker 1: tenfold More Wicked and on Facebook at Wicked Words Pod