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Speaker 1: Cafi. I am six forty. You're listening to the John

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Speaker 1: and Ken Show on demand on the iHeartRadio app.

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Speaker 2: Coming up in just a bit, we're going to talk

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Speaker 2: with the pre eminent well archivist of comedy, really the

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Speaker 2: guy who was really made studying comedy his.

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Speaker 3: Business.

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Speaker 2: Cliff Nesterhoff has a brand new book i'll called Outrageous,

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Speaker 2: A History of Show Business and Culture Wars. We'll talk

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Speaker 2: with him about his new book, and I think you

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Speaker 2: find it fascinating and a we're living in the golden

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Speaker 2: age of lying.

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Speaker 3: We all know that, right.

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Speaker 2: I've got a story for you I want to share

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Speaker 2: as well as did you watch that GOP debate?

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Speaker 3: I didn't.

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Speaker 2: I got to confess couldn't handle it, couldn't do it,

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Speaker 2: couldn't do it. But we'll get into why I didn't

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Speaker 2: watch it, and a kitcut crime. We'll get into all

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Speaker 2: of that, as well as let you know that Timmy

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Speaker 2: is still down with whatever he's got despite the purel

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Speaker 2: So coming up at four kelvin Washington and Joe kwanma oh, buddy,

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Speaker 2: Joe Kwan will be here and I'll be back tomorrow

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Speaker 2: as well. It is the first day of Hanukkah, it

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Speaker 2: is also the eighty second anniversary of the December seventh

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Speaker 2: attack on Pearl Harbor, and normally you wouldn't associate those

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Speaker 2: events at all, but because of the October seventh attack

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Speaker 2: in Israel, which is now another day of infamy along

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Speaker 2: with nine to eleven, obviously we have these dates in

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Speaker 2: our head that are now etched forever in the DNA

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Speaker 2: of Western zev and they are really epical events. And

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Speaker 2: obviously the war that goes on between Israel and Hamas

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Speaker 2: continues to take lives to cul lives. The Israelis have

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Speaker 2: taken many more casualties now their soldiers on the ground

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Speaker 2: are involved in very dangerous urban street fighting, and of

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Speaker 2: course the civilian death soul is.

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Speaker 3: Horrific and it's just a nightmare.

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Speaker 2: And the ripple effects are being felt all over the world,

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Speaker 2: they really are, and particularly here in the United States,

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Speaker 2: where we've just kind of we just assumed, okay, it's Hanukkah.

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Speaker 2: You put up the minoras, and occasionally to be an

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Speaker 2: ACLU lawsuit, you know, somebody would sue some town for having.

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Speaker 3: A major scene or a minora.

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Speaker 2: Put off for separation of church and state, and we'd

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Speaker 2: usually you know, throw that off to the Secretary of

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Speaker 2: knock it off to say, look, this isn't a real problem.

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Speaker 2: People celebrate Hanukah, they celebrate Christmas. We could have a

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Speaker 2: Christmas tree. It doesn't have to be a holiday tree.

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Speaker 2: You can call it a Christmas tree, etc. But now

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Speaker 2: it's fraught with tension because we saw when they tried

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Speaker 2: to do the big Rockefeller Center Christmas thing with you

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Speaker 2: know the celebrities that come out and they do a

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Speaker 2: TV show and they turn the lights on the big

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Speaker 2: Christmas tree at Rockefeller Center. They had to have a

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Speaker 2: huge squad of NYPD out there to keep a pro

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Speaker 2: Palestidian protesters away from the Christmas tree. And I know

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Speaker 2: that this caused cognitive dissonance. A lot of people say,

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Speaker 2: excuse me, what does the Christmas tree have to do

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Speaker 2: with Israel? What does the Christmas tree have to do

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Speaker 2: with anything going on the Middle East? And the truth

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Speaker 2: is is any public gathering right now can become a

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Speaker 2: flashpoint for conflict because the pro Palestinian slash Hamas people

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Speaker 2: are coming out at all public gatherings to hold America

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Speaker 2: accountable for the actions of the Israeli government, saying that

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Speaker 2: if it wasn't for you backing the Israelis, this wouldn't

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Speaker 2: be happening, et cetera, et cetera.

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Speaker 3: Well, you know, good luck unraveling that one. You know,

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Speaker 3: I learned a long time.

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Speaker 2: Ago in talk radio that we ain't solved in the

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Speaker 2: Middle East conflict in talk radio, which is not all right. Never,

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Speaker 2: I didn't have Yasir Arafat online three, I don't have

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Speaker 2: Makmudabas online.

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Speaker 4: Two.

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Speaker 2: I don't have Benjamin Nett and Yahoo Online one. I

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Speaker 2: don't have any control over any of it. What I

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Speaker 2: do know is when you send hundreds of people into

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Speaker 2: a music festival with you know, lawnmower engine powered hang

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Speaker 2: gliders and kalishna coughs to kill kids at a music

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Speaker 2: festival and take baby's hostage, you've done something horribly wrong,

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Speaker 2: horrifically unforgivably wrong.

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Speaker 3: Now what do you do about that? I don't know.

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Speaker 2: It's above my pay grade, folks, It's always been above

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Speaker 2: my pay grade. I hate seeing all the civilians killed

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Speaker 2: every time a bomb drops in Gaza, and more kids

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Speaker 2: are grown up as orphans than their fertile recruits for

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Speaker 2: future terrorist strikes, and the endless cycle of violence goes

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Speaker 2: on the madness is. It just seems like it's never

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Speaker 2: going to stop. But I do know this that when

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Speaker 2: we got hit on nine to eleven, we didn't hesitate

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Speaker 2: to go to Afghanistan to try to root out Osama

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Speaker 2: bin Lauden and the l Kaeda. People who did it

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Speaker 2: to us in any country would Now you could argue

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Speaker 2: from now until the end of time about what the

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Speaker 2: Iraq War was about and why we went there, and

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Speaker 2: that connection was to nine to eleven, which was zero.

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Speaker 2: But the bottom line is that no country, no country

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Speaker 2: could not act after taking a blow like Israel took

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Speaker 2: in October. But now it's here, and to show you

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Speaker 2: how micro the impact of this is, California has got

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Speaker 2: a state Christmas tree. I didn't know that until the

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Speaker 2: story showed up in the papers. I didn't know we

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Speaker 2: had a state Christmas tree because every mall's got a

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Speaker 2: Christmas tree, right. They do it at the grove in

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Speaker 2: the middle of town. They do it all over the place.

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Speaker 2: They light the Christmas tree, they sing some Christmas carols

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Speaker 2: and hope that you go in to the stores and

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Speaker 2: buy some stuff. That's really what goes on, right, So

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Speaker 2: we have a state Christmas tree up in Sacramento on

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Speaker 2: the grounds of the Capitol and California's annual holiday tree

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Speaker 2: lighting at the Capitol was postponed a day and then

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Speaker 2: moved online. And the reason is was potential protests. The

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Speaker 2: event had been planned as a public gathering for Tuesday night.

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Speaker 2: Instead it was rescheduled to a pre recorded virtual ceremony

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Speaker 2: and then streamed Wednesday evening. So they pre recorded it.

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Speaker 2: I guess they waited till no one was around, said

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Speaker 2: turn the lights on, put the cameras on. There it is, yeah,

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Speaker 2: the lights around the Christmas tree, and then they posted

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Speaker 2: it online as a live streaming event. Quote as we

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Speaker 2: continue to see protests across the country impacted the safety

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Speaker 2: of events of all scales and for the safety and

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Speaker 2: security of all participating members and guests, including children and families,

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Speaker 2: this ceremony this year will be virtual. Set a spokesperson

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Speaker 2: for the Governor's office. Since this is the John and

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Speaker 2: Kens Show, we can call them a spokeshole, all right.

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Speaker 2: I know there's a registered trademark on that word, and

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Speaker 2: good for them. That's like pat Riley with three pete.

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Speaker 2: They really I don't know if Johnny did do you

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Speaker 2: know deport did they register the trademark on spoke.

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Speaker 3: Sure, I'm going to have to ask John.

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Speaker 2: Well, well, we know Ken won't answer your not me now,

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Speaker 2: but he never spoke to me, John, you could actually

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Speaker 2: ask maybe he'll actually I hope he did register that. Anyway,

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Speaker 2: Now you see something like this, and I understand why

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Speaker 2: in the age of you know, filing lawsuits and everybody

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Speaker 2: pointing fingers at everybody, God forbid that they have a

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Speaker 2: tree lighting ceremony in Sacramento and there's violence and a

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Speaker 2: kid gets stomped or something, and then they'll say you

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Speaker 2: should have known, look what happened to other places. And

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Speaker 2: the next thing you know, the state of California, the

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Speaker 2: taxpayers are another fourteen million.

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Speaker 3: Dollars in a lawsuit.

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Speaker 2: But it's hard not to look at this and say,

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Speaker 2: how are we not encouraging similar behavior? If you can win,

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Speaker 2: if you can shut down the tree lighting ceremony on

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Speaker 2: the grounds of the state capitol. If the state Capitol

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Speaker 2: grounds cannot be secured from potential violence over something as

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Speaker 2: benign as flipping a switch to light the Christmas tree,

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Speaker 2: then what chance does the rest of us have? And

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Speaker 2: this is not an insignific I know, it's a tiny event,

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Speaker 2: and I don't want to blow it out of proportion.

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Speaker 2: But this is how mobs win, this is how this

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Speaker 2: is how you You know, the threat of physical violence

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Speaker 2: shuts down free speech, and frets shuts down the free

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Speaker 2: expression of your belief system. I had this impression right

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Speaker 2: after the attacks took place. When you know the World

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Speaker 2: Cup is going on. You see flags of all of

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Speaker 2: the World Cup soccer teams. I see them on cars

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Speaker 2: around LA all the time. There was a flag a

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Speaker 2: couple of years back, and I had no idea what

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Speaker 2: the flag was. I had to try to drive and

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Speaker 2: take a picture with my stupid cell phone while I

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Speaker 2: was driving, which is not safe. It's not safe for

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Speaker 2: me to driving period. It's definitely not safe for me

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Speaker 2: to be driving while trying to take a picture in

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Speaker 2: the number three lane.

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Speaker 3: But I couldn't figure out what it. Turns out it

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Speaker 3: was Cameroon.

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Speaker 2: And yes, that shows that I can't be in the

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Speaker 2: GOP debates because I did not know what the flag

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Speaker 2: of Cameroon looked like, all right, but I found it online.

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Speaker 2: I said, oh, it's Cameroon, and they were in the

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Speaker 2: World Cup and people were flying the flag because they

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Speaker 2: were deliriously happy that Cameroon. Cameroonians, the famous huge Cameroonian

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Speaker 2: population in southern California, was celebrating that their team was

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Speaker 2: in the World Cup, and good for them. No one's

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Speaker 2: putting the Israeli flag up. I shouldn't say no one,

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Speaker 2: but very few people are putting the Israeli flag up.

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Speaker 2: People Israelis who live here, American citizens who were formerly

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Speaker 2: from Israel, Jews who identify with their religious homeland, are

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Speaker 2: afraid to put the flag up. And they are, by

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Speaker 2: the way, and I've talked about this here on KFI.

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Speaker 2: There's a lot of people that won't put the American

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Speaker 2: flag up because they don't want their neighbors to think

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Speaker 2: they voted for Trump. And that brings up a whole

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Speaker 2: separate issue of about identifying the American flag with one

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Speaker 2: political party.

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Speaker 3: But here's the deal. If you hate.

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Speaker 2: Trump and you won't fly the American flag, then guess

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Speaker 2: what you've kind of forfeited the symbolism of the flag

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Speaker 2: to the other side. I mean, the real way to

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Speaker 2: take the flag back if you don't like the way

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Speaker 2: it's being used, it's for everybody to fly and say

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Speaker 2: it's the national symbol for everybody. No one party doesn't

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Speaker 2: have a toe hold on it. But if the other

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Speaker 2: party won't fly it, then it kind of they've they've

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Speaker 2: punted it away. But with the Israeli flag, there is

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Speaker 2: a threat of political repercussions, of economic repercussions, and physical repercussions,

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Speaker 2: and this is a real problem. We're seeing this happen

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Speaker 2: all over the place. There's a guy said, like a

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Speaker 2: falafel shop in Philadelphia had hundreds of people out in

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Speaker 2: front of his store because he was an Israeli who

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Speaker 2: ran a falaffel shop, and he had hundreds of protesters

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Speaker 2: outside his store saying that he's an oppressor selling falafels.

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Speaker 3: All right, So.

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Speaker 2: Either these are strange, tense times and it is the

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Speaker 2: consequence of not just the well I think the technology

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Speaker 2: is the tail wagon the dog, because we have the

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Speaker 2: ability to troll people over everything twenty four to seven,

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Speaker 2: three hundred and sixty five days a year, twice a

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Speaker 2: day on Christmas and New Year. There is no escaping

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Speaker 2: anything that happens anywhere in the world is especially in

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Speaker 2: a country like the United States, and particularly in southern California,

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Speaker 2: which is an enormously diverse place. We have people from

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Speaker 2: every like I said, I was seeing Cameroon flags in

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Speaker 2: such abundance that I had to look up what the

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Speaker 2: flag was. And I got to be honest with you,

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Speaker 2: I couldn't spot Cameroon on the map. If you if

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Speaker 2: you spotted me the camera, you know, maybe I could

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Speaker 2: stumble into the room. But I mean, that's that's just

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Speaker 2: the way it is now, and it ain't gonna get

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Speaker 2: any better. I mean, and it's just accelerating, and we

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Speaker 2: have to learn how to live and keep our balance

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Speaker 2: otherwise we're going to lose our minds. When we come back,

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Speaker 2: we're going to continue the conversation of culture wars, which

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Speaker 2: this kind of is with Cliffonsterhoff, author of a new

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Speaker 2: book called Outrageous, A History of show Business and Culture Wars.

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Speaker 5: You're listening to John and ken on demand from KFI

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Speaker 5: AM six.

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Speaker 2: Forty online, KFI AM six forty dot com, Forward slash

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Speaker 2: Listen macutarre in for John and Kennell be here tomorrow

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Speaker 2: on Monday as well.

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Speaker 3: I am a great admirer of our next guest.

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Speaker 2: I have read well. I just got his brand new book,

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Speaker 2: just started reading it. I read his first two books

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Speaker 2: called The Comedians, Drunks, Thieves, Scoundrels and the History of

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Speaker 2: American Comedy. And his second book is one of my favorites.

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Speaker 2: It's a totally fascinating story. It's called We Had a

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Speaker 2: Little Real Estate Problem, the unheralded story of Native Americans

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Speaker 2: and comedy, which you would think, okay, what's page four.

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Speaker 2: Fascinating story and I highly recommend it. And his brand

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Speaker 2: new book is out now. It's called Outrageous, A History

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Speaker 2: of Showbiz and the Culture Wars. It's a pleasure to

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Speaker 2: welcome show Cliff nester Hoff. Cliff, how are you.

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Speaker 1: I'm good, Doug. Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 3: I appreciate it.

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Speaker 2: I know you've been all over the place, so thanks

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Speaker 2: for making time for us. And by the way, Cliff

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Speaker 2: has spelt k l ip h nester Hoff. If you're

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Speaker 2: looking for the book online, you will find it easily.

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Speaker 2: So let's talk about the new book, because you know,

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Speaker 2: we just had Norman Lear. We lost Norman Lear at

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Speaker 2: one hundred and one, and he almost represented all in

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Speaker 2: the family. Really created in some ways the modern culture war,

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Speaker 2: if you will. Of how people responded to that show.

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Speaker 2: It's you know how shocking it was to America when

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Speaker 2: it first came on and we're were kind of we've

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Speaker 2: been fighting that fight ever since.

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Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I mean, comedy and politics are sort of

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Speaker 1: merged these days. You hear a political commentary sometimes overts times,

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Speaker 1: as an undercurrent in almost every comedy show these days.

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Speaker 1: But when Norman Lear started, he was a rudimentary comedy writer.

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Speaker 1: He wrote for Jerry Lewis and Dean Martin on the

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Speaker 1: col Kate Comedy Hour. He wrote for Martha Ray, who

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Speaker 1: was sort of a progenitor of Lucille Ball's physical comedy,

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Speaker 1: very popular in the thirties and forties. She had a

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Speaker 1: TV show in the fifties that normally wrote for And

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Speaker 1: in the nineteen fifties Norman Lear saw Lenny Bruce do

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Speaker 1: stand up comedy, and Lenny Bruce was one of the

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Speaker 1: first modern comics to tackle certain topics that up to

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Speaker 1: that point had been taboo. Organized religion, politics, cuss words,

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Speaker 1: all these things were forbidden in American comedy for decades

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Speaker 1: and decades and decades. So Norman Lear saw Lenny Bruce

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Speaker 1: and he was very much inspired by him. But in

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Speaker 1: those days, the constraints of network television did not allow

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Speaker 1: for much social commentary. So people know now that all

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Speaker 1: of the Family and vad and shows of that type.

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Speaker 1: Roman they approduced had plenty of social commentary, but just

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Speaker 1: a few years earlier, before the creation of shows like

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Speaker 1: All in the Family in mad most sitcoms conformed to

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Speaker 1: sort of the fantasy world Mister Ed, Bewitched, The Adams Family,

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Speaker 1: the Monsters, I Dream of Genie. Almost none of these shows,

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Speaker 1: even though they were made by and many talented people

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Speaker 1: were involved in them, they had no basis in reality.

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Speaker 1: So Norman Lear really brought that realism to television, and

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Speaker 1: that was actually shocking at the time, and now we

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Speaker 1: take it for granted because almost all comedy that we

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Speaker 1: see addresses these types of things social issues, political issues,

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Speaker 1: sexual issues, and Norman Lee was really the first.

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Speaker 2: And it's really always been that way in a sense,

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Speaker 2: in the maybe since the advent of network radio in

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Speaker 2: the late twenties, when all of a sudden, you know,

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Speaker 2: before that entertainment was singing in church or you know,

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Speaker 2: sing along after dinner with Anne Helen playing the organ

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Speaker 2: in the in the parlor. And then we had professionals.

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Speaker 2: We had you know, Bing Crosby, and we had people

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Speaker 2: like that, and I remember, you know, Frank Sinatra, in

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Speaker 2: the nineteen forties. The early nineteen forties, Jayed go Hoover

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Speaker 2: opened a file on Sinatra for corrupting the morals of

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Speaker 2: Americans youth. People were really looking at those girls screaming

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Speaker 2: at the Paramount Theater saying this is where we're doomed.

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Speaker 3: If this is the future, so this isn't.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, and that followed, I mean, that's the same

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Speaker 1: thing that happened with Elvis. That's the same thing that

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Speaker 1: happened with the Beatles, It's the same thing that happened

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Speaker 1: with punk rock, with hip hop. Every generation has their

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Speaker 1: own hysteria. Often it's said to be done in the

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Speaker 1: name of saving the children. Frequently that is a cover

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Speaker 1: for more nefarious and sometimes bigoted motives. In the nineties,

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Speaker 1: you mentioned Bing Crosby. In the late nineteen twenties, crooning

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Speaker 1: was considered indecent, it was considered immoral. Rudy Valley and

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Speaker 1: Bing Crosby were accused of of moaning sexually into the microphone.

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Speaker 1: And there were many people in churches on pulpits that

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Speaker 1: were ranting and raving against the evil influence of crooning,

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Speaker 1: and then jazz music and then swing music and the

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Speaker 1: jitterbug and then in the early sixties we had the Twist,

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Speaker 1: and you could sort of understand, coming out of such

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Speaker 1: a sort of puritanical era, how the advent of the

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Speaker 1: Beatles might shock parents as they saw thousands of teenage

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Speaker 1: girls losing their minds, screaming and crying. It was a

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Speaker 1: little bit alarming, But it is funny to look back

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Speaker 1: on it now. Now it's funny to us, But at

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Speaker 1: the time, people took those types of hysterias very very seriously.

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Speaker 1: And one of the points I try to make in

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Speaker 1: my books that I hope people will take away is

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Speaker 1: that all of those hysterias of the past look absurd

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Speaker 1: to us today, but we that we have hysterias that

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Speaker 1: are occurring right now that people take very very seriously.

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Speaker 1: People got mad about the Barbie movie. But if it

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Speaker 1: doesn't look absurd now a few years from now, it

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Speaker 1: certainly will.

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Speaker 3: Hey, Griff, but did you have a couple of minutes.

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Speaker 2: I'd love to hold you over if I can, because

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Speaker 2: there's so much to talk about. We're talking about Cliff Nesterhoff.

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Speaker 2: His new book is called out Rageous, A History of

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Speaker 2: Showbiz and the Culture Wars. We've got so much to

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Speaker 2: get into a lot of folks talk about cancel culture,

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Speaker 2: about how quote unquote Jerry Seinfeld won't even play college campuses,

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Speaker 2: which I don't believe is even true. I don't think

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Speaker 2: he's actually said that. But we'll get into that with Cliff.

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Speaker 2: There's a lot to talk about.

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Speaker 5: You're listening to John and Ken on demand from KFI

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Speaker 5: AM six.

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Speaker 2: Forty online k I AM six forty dot com, Forward

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Speaker 2: slash Listen McIntire in for Johnny Kennell. Be here tomorrow

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Speaker 2: and Monday as well, and Saturday from noon to two pm.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to be at David K Books in Woodland

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Speaker 2: Hills signing my novel Frank's Shadow, and i'd love to

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Speaker 2: see you out there. It's between Shoop and Fallbrooks, so

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Speaker 2: come on out and say hello. Right under the big

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Speaker 2: yellow sign. You can't miss it. We're talking about Cliff Nesterhoff,

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Speaker 2: whose new book is called Outrageous, A History of Showbiz

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Speaker 2: and the Culture Wars, and you can find that pretty

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Speaker 2: much in any bookstore now and of course online.

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Speaker 3: Cliff, thanks for hanging in with us.

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Speaker 2: I didn't mean to spring a second segment on you,

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Speaker 2: but there's so much I wanted to ask you. We

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Speaker 2: talk a lot about the cancel culture, and there have

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Speaker 2: been examples obviously, even with All in the Family. I mean,

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Speaker 2: based on my you know, my long time as a

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Speaker 2: TV writer producer, I don't know that you could sell

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Speaker 2: All in the Family to network television in today's climate

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Speaker 2: and use that language. But with that said, there's also

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Speaker 2: in a lot of ways comedy has become more democratized

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Speaker 2: than ever given the new technologies available.

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Speaker 3: Did we lose them?

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Speaker 1: Sorry, yeah, I'm here. In the case of All in

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Speaker 1: the Family, they weren't able to sell it back then either.

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Speaker 1: Norman Lear pitched it three different times, they commissioned two

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Speaker 1: different pilots that were both rejected before it finally was

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Speaker 1: accepted to go to the air. So it took them

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Speaker 1: several years to get that show on TV. One of

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Speaker 1: the reasons it was that the advertisers, the sponsors, and

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Speaker 1: the network felt America wasn't ready for it. They felt

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Speaker 1: that they weren't mature enough to understand a satire about bigotry.

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Speaker 1: But American social mores were changing in the late sixties,

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Speaker 1: of course, so by the early seventies they felt, Okay,

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Speaker 1: we'll take a chance, we'll take a risk. So when

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Speaker 1: All the Family debuted, it was heavily criticized. It was

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Speaker 1: not an automatic success. It got criticism from all sides.

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Speaker 1: There was a guy named Brent Bazell Junior who was

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Speaker 1: He had an organization that constantly was accusing television of

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Speaker 1: being immoral, and he called All the Family communist propaganda.

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Speaker 1: The comedian read Skeleton from the nineteen fifties, same thing.

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Speaker 1: He said, All in the Family is communism from start

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Speaker 1: to finish. And then on the other side of the spectrum,

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Speaker 1: left wing people criticized All in the Family because they

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Speaker 1: felt that having a character as a bigot would only

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Speaker 1: encourage people watching it to embrace bigotry and sort of

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Speaker 1: miss the joke. So even back then, and I know

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Speaker 1: we always say that, well, you couldn't make it today.

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Speaker 1: You could barely make it then, and it still had

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Speaker 1: lots of critics even as it became a huge success.

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Speaker 1: Now today I would argue there is more free expression

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Speaker 1: available to us in television, film, music, the stage, stand

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Speaker 1: up comedy, certainly much more than in the past. Compare

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Speaker 1: what was not allowed to be said even to this

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Speaker 1: day on mainstream network television ABC, CBS, NBC to what

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Speaker 1: you can say on cable television, what you can say

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Speaker 1: on streaming services. Compare what you cannot say throughout all

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Speaker 1: of history on AM and FM radio to what you

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Speaker 1: can say on satellite radio to what you can say

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Speaker 1: on podcasts and the Internet. And if you look at

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Speaker 1: the taboos of the twentieth century, the things that were

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Speaker 1: absolutely forbidden from radio and television and things that could

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Speaker 1: get you arrested as a live performer included criticism of religion,

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Speaker 1: criticism of politic swearing on stage, Mainwst Lenny Bruce, George Carlin,

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Speaker 1: Richard Pryor. They were all arrested for using salacious language

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Speaker 1: in their act. In the case of Maywest, it was

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Speaker 1: merely an innuendo about sex, which got her arrested and

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Speaker 1: she spent ten days in jail. That simply doesn't happen anymore.

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Speaker 1: Despite the fact that there are some new taboos, most

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Speaker 1: of them focused on slurs or what people perceive as

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Speaker 1: bigoted language, but ultimately, compared to the entire duration of

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Speaker 1: the twentieth century, we actually have more freedom of expression

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Speaker 1: in comedy today, not less.

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Speaker 3: Well.

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Speaker 2: I agree, and I think that it's not even a

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Speaker 2: matter of opinion, it's an empirical provable point because we've democratized, essentially,

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Speaker 2: the digital revolution has democratized everything, and we're still we're

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Speaker 2: kind of struggling with the flood, the avalanche of material.

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Speaker 2: What died in the process is the notion of broadcasting

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Speaker 2: because what we have is a sameally narrow casting. I mean,

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Speaker 2: that's why I suppose the Super Bowl and Taylor Swift

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Speaker 2: is so valuable because there are that many culturally universal

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Speaker 2: items that we can all absorb at the same time.

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Speaker 2: Though way we did at the peak of the Ed

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Speaker 2: Sullivan Show when everybody saw the Beatles at the same time,

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Speaker 2: and then that became the thing.

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Speaker 3: It's very, very I like.

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Speaker 1: The fact that you brought up the super Bowl just

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Speaker 1: another analogy to demonstrate how much more freedom of expression

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Speaker 1: we have in modern media. The Janet Jackson super Bowl

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Speaker 1: halftime scandal, it was not even twenty years ago, nineteen

433
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:36,680
Speaker 1: going on twenty years that was such a hysteria about

434
00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:41,160
Speaker 1: this half second glimpse of her chest that it dominated

435
00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:44,560
Speaker 1: media for weeks months. People in the Hall of Congress

436
00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:48,119
Speaker 1: were condemning it, and ultimately CBS had to pay a

437
00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:51,400
Speaker 1: half million dollar fine to the FCC. Now you look

438
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:54,560
Speaker 1: at shows like euphoria or the righteous Gemstones. They have

439
00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:58,240
Speaker 1: full frontal unity in these shows and it's not even

440
00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:02,040
Speaker 1: a controversy. So once again I feel that just as

441
00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:06,160
Speaker 1: some newer taboos have emerged, most of them focused on slurs,

442
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:10,159
Speaker 1: far more taboos have been shattered, even in just the

443
00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:11,000
Speaker 1: last twenty years.

444
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:11,679
Speaker 3: Well, let me ask you.

445
00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:14,760
Speaker 2: We're talking about Cliff Nesterhoff's book is called Outrageous, A

446
00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:16,800
Speaker 2: History of Showbiz and the Culture Wars.

447
00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:19,639
Speaker 3: It's not a TV situation.

448
00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:23,800
Speaker 2: But Woody Allen a few years ago wrote a really

449
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:27,880
Speaker 2: wonderful memoir actually and a defense on the whole scandal

450
00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:31,280
Speaker 2: around his life, called Apropos of Nothing, and the book

451
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:35,440
Speaker 2: was literally canceled by the employees of Little Brown Hashet,

452
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:38,520
Speaker 2: the publisher was supposed to publish the book. They just

453
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:43,000
Speaker 2: the company folded. They they totally bailed on the book.

454
00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:46,679
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, that happens, you know. In my book I

455
00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:49,800
Speaker 1: specifically am referring, although I do have some of these

456
00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:56,040
Speaker 1: other examples. People react differently to what comedian does on

457
00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:58,240
Speaker 1: stage to what they do off stage, And when we

458
00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:01,480
Speaker 1: talk about cancel culture, we often lump them together. People

459
00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:03,399
Speaker 1: say you can't joke about anything anymore, and then they

460
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:06,680
Speaker 1: give an example of a scandal the person's been involved

461
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,400
Speaker 1: in offstage. So in the case of what he allen,

462
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:13,640
Speaker 1: we're dealing with a situation that is outside the confine

463
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:16,919
Speaker 1: of his act. But the example that you give of

464
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:19,679
Speaker 1: the employees protesting the publication of that book and then

465
00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:21,440
Speaker 1: they pulled it, and I think it was only published

466
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:23,199
Speaker 1: in Europe. Of course, you can still get it on

467
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:26,200
Speaker 1: Amazon if you really wanted to. It reminds me a

468
00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:28,440
Speaker 1: little bit of the reaction in the nineteen twenties to

469
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:31,679
Speaker 1: Fatty Arbuckle, the silent comedian and the famous Fatty art

470
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:37,280
Speaker 1: Buckle scandal. He had been implicated in the death of

471
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:40,720
Speaker 1: a woman at a wild San Francisco party. He was

472
00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:44,560
Speaker 1: acquitted of all charges after a couple of different trials,

473
00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:46,439
Speaker 1: one where they couldn't come to a verdict, and then

474
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:50,159
Speaker 1: ultimately he was acquitted. But it didn't matter. His movies

475
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,680
Speaker 1: were still pulled from movie screens across America. He tried

476
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:56,040
Speaker 1: to book a personal appearance tour, He was welcomed by

477
00:25:56,040 --> 00:26:00,560
Speaker 1: some theaters, banned by others, and it did. It ultimately

478
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:03,680
Speaker 1: didn't matter. You know, he had been considered guilty by

479
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:08,160
Speaker 1: many or a symbol of Hollywood's immorality, and so there

480
00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:11,040
Speaker 1: are examples of that throughout history. Once again, I don't

481
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:15,359
Speaker 1: feel that it is completely a new phenomenon, although the

482
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:21,240
Speaker 1: variable of social media makes these types of controversies ultimately

483
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:24,680
Speaker 1: far more intense than they were in the past, because

484
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:26,760
Speaker 1: all of the grievance, all of the complaint, all the

485
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:30,320
Speaker 1: protest is sort of concentrated in one place and said

486
00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:32,639
Speaker 1: to us over and over and over, whereas in the

487
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:35,240
Speaker 1: past it may have been a protest in public, or

488
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:37,320
Speaker 1: it may have been a letter to the editor, but

489
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 1: you were not necessarily inundated with it to the degree

490
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:41,560
Speaker 1: that we are today.

491
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:43,919
Speaker 2: And all Fatty Arbuckle came back and worked as a

492
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:47,359
Speaker 2: director under the non day screen of will be Good

493
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:50,280
Speaker 2: Will and this Will be Good which was sort of

494
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:52,680
Speaker 2: his response to it. But the truth is is that

495
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:58,040
Speaker 2: really the social critic comics, their job is not to

496
00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:00,720
Speaker 2: be good. It's to rattle cages. And that's George Carlin

497
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:03,560
Speaker 2: did obviously, that's what Lenny Bruce did before, and that's

498
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:06,680
Speaker 2: what look was a Burris as the one who brought

499
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:08,960
Speaker 2: down Bill Cosby. It was from the stages of a

500
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 2: comedy club that were posted on social media that actually

501
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:16,679
Speaker 2: ignited the fire that resulted in the Bill Cosby investigations.

502
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:19,760
Speaker 1: Yes, I don't think that was ever really Hannibal Burris's

503
00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:21,800
Speaker 1: intent one way or the other. It's sort of took

504
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 1: a life of its own because the Bill Cosby scandal

505
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:28,240
Speaker 1: had already been reported, right, yeah, many times, I mean yeah,

506
00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:31,840
Speaker 1: and it just never gained traction. Hannibal Burris did that routine,

507
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:34,720
Speaker 1: never with the intention. I don't think of it gaining traction,

508
00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:38,480
Speaker 1: but of course it did. You really don't know where

509
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:40,800
Speaker 1: things are going to head sometimes, you know, people always

510
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:43,320
Speaker 1: say to me, they're like Cliff You know, these days

511
00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:46,159
Speaker 1: now any comedian can upload to YouTube and they can

512
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:48,439
Speaker 1: go viral, or they can do their own podcast. They

513
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:51,880
Speaker 1: can circumvent the networks. Go Yes, but it still requires

514
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:54,960
Speaker 1: luck in order to succeed. There are thousands of people

515
00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:58,720
Speaker 1: who make podcasts that nobody listens to exactly, uploads to

516
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:00,840
Speaker 1: YouTube that have been up there for ten years that

517
00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:03,800
Speaker 1: have less than one hundred views. So the one constant

518
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:07,840
Speaker 1: throughout showbiz history, whether it was old time radio, vaudeville,

519
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 1: early TV, cable television, or today with the Internet, the

520
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:15,640
Speaker 1: variable is still good luck. You got to have good

521
00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:18,919
Speaker 1: luck in order to succeed, and you can't really control that.

522
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:21,920
Speaker 1: And then the same thing with these scandals. You never

523
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:24,920
Speaker 1: really know when the scandal is going to blow up.

524
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:27,520
Speaker 1: It could be sitting there all along and people will

525
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:30,359
Speaker 1: ignore it, or it can gain traction. You just really

526
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:33,480
Speaker 1: never know what's going to go viral. It's really not

527
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:34,920
Speaker 1: up to us. It's sort of up to the ether.

528
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 2: Outrageous A History of Showbiz and the Culture Wars is

529
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:41,400
Speaker 2: available everywhere books are sold, and I highly recommend all

530
00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:46,040
Speaker 2: of Cliff's books. He really has carved out a great

531
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:48,760
Speaker 2: niche in the history department and it's a great cultural

532
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:51,880
Speaker 2: history and just wildly entertaining read. Cliff, thanks so much

533
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:56,520
Speaker 2: for ben with us. That's Cliff Kliph Nesterhoff. Thanks again,

534
00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:57,200
Speaker 2: appreciate it.

535
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:02,920
Speaker 5: Thank you to John and Ken on demand from KFI

536
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:03,840
Speaker 5: AM six.

537
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:08,800
Speaker 2: Forty kelvin Washington and Joe Kwan coming up at four

538
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 2: o'clock in for the ailing Tim Conway Jr.

539
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:15,800
Speaker 3: I don't know, somehow, some kind of creep and crud.

540
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:19,600
Speaker 2: It's got to be a super bacteria to penetrate his

541
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 2: protective shield of purel. The man sweats purel at this point,

542
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:27,480
Speaker 2: and yet somehow he managed to come down with something. Anyway,

543
00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:32,120
Speaker 2: Hopefully Timmy gets better back here soon. So all right,

544
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:34,400
Speaker 2: I saved the best for last folks. By the way,

545
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:37,120
Speaker 2: I will be back here tomorrow and Monday as well,

546
00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:41,960
Speaker 2: and then on Tuesday the show now becomes the John

547
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:44,440
Speaker 2: Cobbolt Show officially. So I am here to shovel the

548
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:48,040
Speaker 2: final shovelfuls of dirt over the John and Ken Show,

549
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:52,200
Speaker 2: which ended yesterday with Ken's retirement, And congratulations again to

550
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:54,960
Speaker 2: both of them for a fantastic career, and I wish

551
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:57,680
Speaker 2: Ken personally just a great retirement.

552
00:29:57,720 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 3: I hope he has as much fun as I've had.

553
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:03,200
Speaker 2: Anyway, ladies and gentlemen, here's the story. You just can't

554
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 2: make this up. This may be the most telling story

555
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 2: of the age in which we live. The Washington Post

556
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:13,440
Speaker 2: is reporting this, and how they got it is probably

557
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:17,160
Speaker 2: a story unto itself. But apparently there is something called

558
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:21,640
Speaker 2: political humiliation. And I'm not just talking about like George

559
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 2: Santos are losing an election really badly. This is like

560
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 2: in the kink community, where liptard subs fantasize about being

561
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:41,400
Speaker 2: dominated by Magadams and vice versa. Journalist Haley Lieberman and

562
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:43,320
Speaker 2: I'd love to find out. We have to get Haley

563
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:46,240
Speaker 2: on here to find out how she uncovered this story.

564
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:51,600
Speaker 2: Published a transcript from a political humiliation video which featured

565
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:56,000
Speaker 2: a dominatrix trying to persuade Beta liberals to vote Republican

566
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 2: for Daddy Trump. That's a direct quote. The dominatrix, who

567
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,920
Speaker 2: voted for former president Donald Trump twice but now supports

568
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:06,160
Speaker 2: Ron DeSantis sold the Washington Post she quote earned six

569
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:10,840
Speaker 2: figures annually with her Nietzsche content, and the reporter for

570
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:12,920
Speaker 2: the Post also spoke to a thirty three year old

571
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:17,320
Speaker 2: Republican quote whose day job involves monitoring politics and liberal

572
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:18,920
Speaker 2: media for an unnamed radio host.

573
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:20,680
Speaker 3: It's not me, but who.

574
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:26,720
Speaker 2: Runs the fetish group Maga doms slash Doms. That's Doms

575
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:32,240
Speaker 2: slash mmees and libtard subs by night. On Maga Dom's

576
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:35,720
Speaker 2: Doms and Libtard Subs, members post requests such as quote

577
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:38,800
Speaker 2: looking for a Maga dom to redpill me and convince

578
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 2: me to share my wife, and reports that one man

579
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:46,600
Speaker 2: described his fantasy as wearing a Trump dog collar, which

580
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:50,200
Speaker 2: is sold on Donald Trump's campaign website Don't Ask Me Why,

581
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:53,520
Speaker 2: and being walked round to Walmart to pick.

582
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:56,920
Speaker 3: A dog bone. Oh boy, you can't make this up.

583
00:31:57,360 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 2: And meanwhile, there is a man who is self described

584
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:02,680
Speaker 2: as very, very liberal who told the Washington Post that

585
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:06,920
Speaker 2: he fantasizes about a Marjorie Taylor Green and Laura Bobert

586
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:11,760
Speaker 2: forcing a tryst. I guess three way that forces him

587
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 2: to vote straight read Donald Trump. I don't even know

588
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:19,480
Speaker 2: why we try to make stuff up. Hey, coming up

589
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:22,840
Speaker 2: for Timmy, it's gonna be Kelvin Washington and Joe Kwan,

590
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:23,959
Speaker 2: who are with us right now?

591
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:26,200
Speaker 3: What you guys got coming up? Hello, I haven't seen

592
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:29,640
Speaker 3: you in in decade, like a decade. We used to

593
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:31,600
Speaker 3: work together at KBC Radio right.

594
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:33,479
Speaker 2: When you were first starting and I was already an

595
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:37,720
Speaker 2: bittered and I was an embittered, crabby old has been then,

596
00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:40,240
Speaker 2: not at all.

597
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 4: No, we got a lot coming up. Obviously, you have

598
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:47,600
Speaker 4: a GOP bait so which.

599
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:50,920
Speaker 3: I mean at this point, why are they even doing it?

600
00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:55,720
Speaker 4: But you know, entertainment, entertainment, well, also notoriety.

601
00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:58,160
Speaker 5: Some books. After I lose.

602
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:02,560
Speaker 2: Square, I think that half the people who run for

603
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:04,680
Speaker 2: president run just so they could have a yard card

604
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 2: in their record.

605
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:08,320
Speaker 3: There you go that says I ran for president.

606
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:12,360
Speaker 4: I'm gonna say you're being gracious, say I'm going three quarters.

607
00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 4: Uh So we'll get into that. We'll get into obviously

608
00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:16,880
Speaker 4: some you know, some tragedies when you're talking about gun

609
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:19,560
Speaker 4: violence that's been happening b Redondo Beach.

610
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 3: And again Holiday. Try to top that.

611
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:32,960
Speaker 2: The b D s M community has mega doms and

612
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:37,480
Speaker 2: libtard w subs. This is Washington Post reporting this. Wow,

613
00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:39,480
Speaker 2: this isn't just me taking it up for once.

614
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:41,640
Speaker 5: Hey, you've been listening to The John and Ken Show.

615
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:43,840
Speaker 1: You can always hear us live on caf i a

616
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:47,240
Speaker 1: M six forty one pm to four pm every Monday

617
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:50,280
Speaker 1: through Friday, and of course anytime on demand on the

618
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:51,400
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app