1 00:00:02,040 --> 00:00:05,840 Speaker 1: Here's the story about rabies in three sentences. You get 2 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:09,319 Speaker 1: bitten by a rabbit animal, you lose control of your mind, 3 00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:13,800 Speaker 1: and then you die. So it is not surprising that 4 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:17,919 Speaker 1: Raby's terrified humanity for thousands of years. Why do you 5 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:20,040 Speaker 1: write a book about Raby's, gosh? 6 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:24,680 Speaker 2: I have always thought Rabi's was so interesting in terms 7 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:28,560 Speaker 2: of its biology, the way it hijacks the brain to 8 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:32,120 Speaker 2: ensure that it'll continue its own spread, the way it 9 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:35,159 Speaker 2: affects the relationship between people and animals, which, since I'm 10 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:37,760 Speaker 2: a veterinarian, is pretty central to my life. 11 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:41,199 Speaker 1: Monica Murphy is a veterinarian and the co author with 12 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 1: Bill Wasick of Rabbit, a Cultural History of the world's 13 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:49,680 Speaker 1: most diabolical virus. I should mention that Monica also happens 14 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:51,640 Speaker 1: to be my neighbor and a friend of mine. 15 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:56,800 Speaker 2: I think the stories that my rabbit Google alert turns 16 00:00:56,920 --> 00:01:00,760 Speaker 2: up every week, you know, Bobcat's like coming into a 17 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:04,160 Speaker 2: bar and like assaulting someone at a pool table, or 18 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:09,840 Speaker 2: raccoons attacking people's trucks. All that stuff is just really 19 00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:14,640 Speaker 2: interesting and scary and the stuff of nightmares. But I 20 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:16,680 Speaker 2: love that science has an answer for all of that 21 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:18,039 Speaker 2: in the. 22 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:22,440 Speaker 1: Developed world, almost nobody gets rabies anymore. In the United States, 23 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 1: it's fewer than ten people a year. Even our dogs 24 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:28,200 Speaker 1: are safe from the disease for the most part. And 25 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 1: the reason for this, the reason we don't have to 26 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:33,679 Speaker 1: worry that every barking dog we see might bite us 27 00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:35,720 Speaker 1: and kill us, goes back to one of the most 28 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:39,640 Speaker 1: important scientists in the history of both viruses and vaccines, 29 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:45,920 Speaker 1: Louis Pasteur. I'm Jacob Goldstein, and this is Incubation, a 30 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:49,639 Speaker 1: show about viruses. We're delighted to be launching season two today. 31 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:52,520 Speaker 1: We have lots more viruses to talk about this season, 32 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 1: and we're starting with rabies. In the first half of 33 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 1: the show, we'll be talking to Monica about rabies and 34 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 1: the work of Louis Pasteur. Second after the show, we'll 35 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 1: talk to a scientist who's fighting rabies in wildlife in 36 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:12,920 Speaker 1: a really surprising way. So let's talk about rabies. What 37 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:13,560 Speaker 1: is rabies? 38 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:20,720 Speaker 2: So rabies is an RNA virus. It is special because 39 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:26,280 Speaker 2: it is transmitted through bites, primarily unlike the sort of 40 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:29,799 Speaker 2: transmission pattern we see with other viruses. In rabies, at 41 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:33,560 Speaker 2: the site of the bite, the virus is looking to 42 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 2: interact with a nerve, and once it has engaged the nerve, 43 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 2: it kind of ratchets its way up the central nervous 44 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:45,520 Speaker 2: system from the bite site through peripheral nerves up into 45 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:47,800 Speaker 2: the spine, and from the spine up into the brain. 46 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:51,960 Speaker 2: It takes a while. It's a slow, slow process. 47 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 1: It's like a centimeter a day or There is a. 48 00:02:56,600 --> 00:03:00,400 Speaker 2: Real sort of relationship between how far away the is 49 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:04,000 Speaker 2: from the brain and how long it takes to develop rabies, 50 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:07,160 Speaker 2: although it's not strict, and it does mean that if 51 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:11,760 Speaker 2: you're bitten on the face, you are likely to come 52 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 2: down with rabies faster than if you're bitten on the toe, 53 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:18,919 Speaker 2: and not every bite from a rabbit animal will result 54 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:23,079 Speaker 2: in transmission something like twenty percent to your round number. 55 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:27,080 Speaker 2: And once the virus does make it into the brain, 56 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 2: you're going to develop symptoms of rabies. They're horrible, and 57 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 2: then you're going to die. It's practically speaking, one hundred 58 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 2: percent fatal, like wo really rotten. And the way it works, too, 59 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:42,120 Speaker 2: which is pretty horrifying if you think about it, is 60 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 2: it's hijacking the brain to ensure that it's going to 61 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 2: be spread to another individual. 62 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 1: And you say, what do you mean so in especially in. 63 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 2: The species it's adapted to, let's say, dog rabies. In 64 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:59,360 Speaker 2: the dog, it is going to stimulate parts of the 65 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:02,440 Speaker 2: brain that kind of rev up that dog's sort of 66 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 2: social emotional state, make it much more prone to violence 67 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:11,320 Speaker 2: and biting incidents with other dogs. So that meanwhile it's 68 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:14,880 Speaker 2: being secreted in the saliva. It's really increasing the likelihood 69 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:16,720 Speaker 2: that it's going to make it into another dog and 70 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:18,719 Speaker 2: continuous life cycle, which is. 71 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:21,680 Speaker 1: Kind of amazing, right, Like it's just a virus, yeah, 72 00:04:21,760 --> 00:04:26,000 Speaker 1: and it's essentially evolved to like change the behavior of 73 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 1: this complex mammal to make it bite other mammals so 74 00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:32,599 Speaker 1: that the virus will spread. Like that is a wild 75 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 1: feet of evolution. 76 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's really really scary. In places where humans 77 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:43,840 Speaker 2: are frequently in contact with rabbit animals, the sort of 78 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:47,760 Speaker 2: behavioral changes that occur in the human Rebe's victim are 79 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:53,360 Speaker 2: also really messy. You know, a human with Rabe's might 80 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:55,799 Speaker 2: not actively try to bite you, unless they're a little kid. 81 00:04:56,520 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 2: They might punch you in the nose or just scream 82 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:00,200 Speaker 2: curses at you. 83 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:03,440 Speaker 1: In general, people become more hostile. 84 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:06,480 Speaker 2: More violent, yeah, or sext up uh huh. 85 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:11,000 Speaker 1: So just like more id. Yeah, terrifying. You're being attacked 86 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:14,960 Speaker 1: by your own brain, right, somehow, You're like your own 87 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 1: thoughts are attacking you. 88 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:17,440 Speaker 2: Yeah. 89 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:21,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean so you talk with respect to that 90 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:26,120 Speaker 1: in the book about kind of rabies and mythology, right, 91 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 1: rabies and were wolves, rabies and vampires, Like, tell me 92 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:30,200 Speaker 1: about that. 93 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 2: There's at least a deep resonance between these stories of 94 00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:39,320 Speaker 2: a sort of contagious you know, contagious zombieism or werewolf 95 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:43,600 Speaker 2: ism or vampirism where the bite the bite. Yeah, and 96 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:46,200 Speaker 2: there's the association with bats and vampires and. 97 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:51,040 Speaker 1: Both and both bats and wolves are historical vectors of rabies, 98 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 1: just to be clear. So this is kind of rabies. 99 00:05:55,240 --> 00:06:01,200 Speaker 1: It's this ancient disease. It is terrifying where crazed animals 100 00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 1: bite people and turn people into crazed animals who then die. 101 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 1: It's basically the state of play rabis forever. And then 102 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:14,880 Speaker 1: onto the stage of history walks our hero, Louis Pasteur. 103 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:17,000 Speaker 1: That's right, tell me about Pasteur. 104 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:19,920 Speaker 2: Most folks know at least a little bit about Louis 105 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 2: Pastor because he had a long scientific career. He was 106 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:30,400 Speaker 2: trained as a physicist and chemist, and he grew into 107 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 2: more of a microbiological concentration in his work. Along the way, 108 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:38,440 Speaker 2: he established germ theory. 109 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 1: Yes, that people thought was like a crazy idea, And 110 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:45,880 Speaker 1: this is like a mid to late eighteen hundreds, right, 111 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 1: and the world already had the smallpox vaccine at this point. 112 00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:53,159 Speaker 1: But I do feel like it's worth remembering here that 113 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 1: that was sort of this lucky break, right, where like 114 00:06:55,640 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 1: there just happened to be this mild disease, cowpox, that 115 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:03,120 Speaker 1: made people immune to this terrible disease, to smallpox. And Pasteur, 116 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 1: as you write in the book, he decides that he's 117 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 1: going to apply this germ theory to vaccines. Right, He's 118 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 1: actually going to use science to create a vaccine, So 119 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 1: tell us about that. 120 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:18,480 Speaker 2: What Louis Prestor sought to do and succeeded in doing 121 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:23,680 Speaker 2: for the first time ever is manipulating microbes to sort 122 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 2: of move them away from their wild state into an 123 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 2: attenuated a week in state and induce immunity using. 124 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 1: Those right, So okay, So Pasteur he develops a few 125 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:38,880 Speaker 1: animal vaccines in this way, and then he decides that 126 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 1: the first human vaccine he's going to make is going 127 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:44,440 Speaker 1: to be a rabies vaccine, you know, a vaccine for 128 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 1: this terrifying disease. So what does he actually have to do? 129 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 2: So, because there's no way to grow rabies inside of 130 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 2: a test tube, he had to maintain a population of 131 00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:57,680 Speaker 2: rabbit animals in his lab. 132 00:07:57,800 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 1: Terrifying. 133 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 2: Yeah awful, I mean really gruesome and scary for the 134 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:06,760 Speaker 2: people he worked with. They would harvest the saliva and 135 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:10,160 Speaker 2: introduce it into more dogs or into rabbits. 136 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 1: How do you harvest the saliva from a rabid dog 137 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 1: really carefully? Right, I walked into that. 138 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:19,120 Speaker 2: But yeah, involving like a high pet Oh my god. 139 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, in the mouth of a rabbit dog. Yeah, yeah, 140 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 1: I'm gonna die. Yeah, I'm afraid. So so you've got 141 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 1: step one, find the nasty disease. Step two, seemingly the 142 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:33,320 Speaker 1: harder part, turn that nasty disease into a thing that 143 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:36,200 Speaker 1: will induce some immunity without causing disease. 144 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 2: Right, they can't see the microbe. They know it's in 145 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:43,360 Speaker 2: the nervous tissue, So they start dissecting out nervous tissue 146 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:49,679 Speaker 2: from animals with rabies, specifically rabbits, and they aged it. 147 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:52,960 Speaker 2: They age the tissue in a sort of desiccating tray. 148 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 2: And determined that with sufficient aging, it weakens it. 149 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:01,120 Speaker 1: Just leave it sitting on the shell for a while. 150 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:05,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, except they ultimately arrived at a method that was 151 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 2: a lot more complex. They had a sort of well 152 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 2: whole sort of assembly line of tissues at various stages 153 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:16,199 Speaker 2: of aging. So you know, you've got your your rabbit 154 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:19,000 Speaker 2: spinal quarter over here that's aged fourteen days, and here's 155 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:21,840 Speaker 2: a thirteen day one, and okay, et cetera. The ones 156 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:24,480 Speaker 2: that are oldest are least virulent. The ones that are 157 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:28,840 Speaker 2: newest are most virulent and too dangerous to put right 158 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 2: into a person right out of the gate. So they 159 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 2: start with an injection of the longest aged nervous tissue, 160 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:39,480 Speaker 2: the weakest the weakest one, and then over they think 161 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:43,559 Speaker 2: of a ten days the initial protocol. They inject thirteen 162 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:49,079 Speaker 2: injections with progressively stronger that is, newer tissue. 163 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:51,960 Speaker 1: And so is the basic idea, like the weakest one 164 00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:55,640 Speaker 1: induces some immune response so that you can then tolerate 165 00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:57,920 Speaker 1: a slightly stronger one, and you're kind of going up 166 00:09:57,920 --> 00:09:59,680 Speaker 1: a staircase of immunity. 167 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:02,160 Speaker 2: That's how he developed it, And of course today we 168 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:05,880 Speaker 2: just have a single strength. Rayby's vaccine in use. So 169 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:09,000 Speaker 2: his method wasn't the only way to induce immunity, but 170 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:11,040 Speaker 2: it's you know, they were dealing with a one hundred 171 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:14,720 Speaker 2: percent fatal disease, I think understandably nervous about introducing it 172 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:18,760 Speaker 2: into people. And they realized both that they can They 173 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 2: can do pre exposure vaccination so that the dog can't 174 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 2: get infected with Rabi's. Uh huh, hold that thought. That's 175 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 2: not put into use right away. But then they also 176 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:34,240 Speaker 2: can start a series of vaccine after the dog has 177 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:36,520 Speaker 2: been exposed to Raby's and prevent him from coming down 178 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:37,080 Speaker 2: with the disease. 179 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:40,280 Speaker 1: So they figure this out, and then we have this 180 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:43,960 Speaker 1: moment when it's time to try it on a person 181 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:46,480 Speaker 1: for the first time. What is that moment? 182 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 2: So a case was brought to Louis Pester's attention that 183 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 2: seemed sufficiently concerning to take a chance on this vaccine 184 00:10:56,400 --> 00:11:01,679 Speaker 2: and involved a young boy who was bitten by the 185 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:06,559 Speaker 2: grocer's dog who had had undergone a suspicious behavior change 186 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:11,240 Speaker 2: and was marauding the neighborhood. The bites were extensive, and 187 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:14,560 Speaker 2: so that's another potential risk factor for development of Rabi's. 188 00:11:14,559 --> 00:11:17,480 Speaker 2: We talked about, meaning he got lots of places, you know, 189 00:11:17,559 --> 00:11:21,040 Speaker 2: lots of places really deeply, so, lots of places where 190 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:24,160 Speaker 2: the virus could have encountered a nerve, making it likely 191 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:26,000 Speaker 2: that he was going to come down with rabies at 192 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:29,319 Speaker 2: some point. They were very pessimistic about the boy's chances, 193 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:34,440 Speaker 2: and so they sent him to Paris, to. 194 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:38,120 Speaker 1: Louis Pestor's lab, where he had this vaccine that he 195 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:40,040 Speaker 1: had not yet tested on a human being. 196 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:42,199 Speaker 2: Yeah, he had been thinking about testing it on himself. 197 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 1: Uh huh, a kind of tradition in science. 198 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 2: Yes, But before he had a chance to test on himself, 199 00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:51,520 Speaker 2: he was persuaded by the physicians caring for this boy 200 00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:54,760 Speaker 2: that this kid might very likely to die if he 201 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:59,200 Speaker 2: doesn't get the vaccine, and so Pastor went ahead with 202 00:11:59,240 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 2: his process. 203 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:04,240 Speaker 1: So the boy gets this experimental vaccine, and now Pastor 204 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:07,199 Speaker 1: has to just wait right wait to see what happened. 205 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:09,560 Speaker 1: So what's going on with Pastor while he's, you know, 206 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:11,559 Speaker 1: waiting to see whether the boy survives. 207 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:18,920 Speaker 2: Well, Pastor was sleepless. He was just in a state 208 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 2: of agonized waiting and was having health problems related to that. 209 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:24,720 Speaker 2: He traveled a little bit for his health. Well, he 210 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:26,480 Speaker 2: sort of ticked down the days. 211 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:27,680 Speaker 1: What happens with the boy? 212 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:31,800 Speaker 2: The boy does great. He remains healthy during the ten 213 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:34,800 Speaker 2: day process where he could see inoculations, and once a 214 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:37,520 Speaker 2: few months had passed, at the point at which you know, 215 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 2: I was believed he would have come down with rabies 216 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:42,800 Speaker 2: by now, if not because of the because of the bytes, 217 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:47,520 Speaker 2: perhaps because the vaccine was dangerous, he continued to thrive. 218 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:52,120 Speaker 1: Okay, so the vaccine works. What like, how does it play? 219 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:55,360 Speaker 2: People were excited around the world. I mean, the vanquishing 220 00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:58,959 Speaker 2: of rabies was big news, just as Pistar had calculated, 221 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 2: not immediately embraced by everyone. There were physicians everywhere who 222 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:08,240 Speaker 2: had been following the science and sort of got it 223 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:10,679 Speaker 2: and were eager to put it to use. 224 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:13,280 Speaker 1: And in the in the sort of long run, in 225 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 1: the you know, one hundred year arc. What what does 226 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 1: pastors work mean? Both for rabies and for you know, 227 00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:25,160 Speaker 1: disease research and treatment more. 228 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:30,200 Speaker 2: Generally, His lab is often credited with developing the science 229 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:34,520 Speaker 2: of immunology and furthermore lead the foundations just with the 230 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:37,480 Speaker 2: basic idea that like, you can take infectious agents and 231 00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:39,240 Speaker 2: you can figure out a way to make them weaker. 232 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:44,960 Speaker 2: That is the basis on which all modern vaccine science works. 233 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:50,720 Speaker 1: So let's let's talk about rabies today. What is the 234 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:52,160 Speaker 1: status of rabi's today. 235 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:57,079 Speaker 2: So rabies is still a problem in many parts of 236 00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:01,080 Speaker 2: the world who have not yet eliminated dog rabies. But 237 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 2: we're really lucky here that the use of the pre 238 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 2: exposure vaccine and dogs eliminated dog rabies. We no longer 239 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:12,280 Speaker 2: have to like look as scance at our pet dogs 240 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:16,320 Speaker 2: and worry that contact with them could kill us. The 241 00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:20,160 Speaker 2: parts of the world where that is not true, where 242 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:23,400 Speaker 2: dog brabies is still endemic, places like India and parts 243 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 2: of Africa, there are still a lot of human rabies deaths. 244 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:31,520 Speaker 2: I think the who uses the number sixty thousand rabies 245 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 2: deaths are still happening every year around the world. That 246 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 2: numbers is really contested. It's been a real challenge getting 247 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:42,800 Speaker 2: the vaccines and the other products that fight brabies to 248 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 2: the people who need them most. But those products are 249 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:51,720 Speaker 2: prohibitively expensive. So rabies is considered a neglected disease by 250 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:56,280 Speaker 2: the international health authorities, but people are still dying of rabies. 251 00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:59,400 Speaker 2: And then in parts of the world like Europe and 252 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:02,800 Speaker 2: the United States where dog rabies is not the issue, 253 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 2: we do still have wildlife rabies, So. 254 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:08,240 Speaker 1: Like in the US, what wild animals have rabies? 255 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:16,400 Speaker 2: There's rabies adapted to foxes, skunks, raccoons, and a whole 256 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 2: lot of bats in the United States. 257 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:21,760 Speaker 1: Right, I read that, like, if you wake up and 258 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:24,800 Speaker 1: there's a bat in your room, you should probably get 259 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:26,640 Speaker 1: a rabies shot because bats can bite you and you 260 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:27,600 Speaker 1: don't even know us. 261 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:30,280 Speaker 2: Yes, there's an argument for getting Raby's vaccine if you 262 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:32,240 Speaker 2: wake up in a room with a bat, although you 263 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:33,960 Speaker 2: know you should consult your local health guard. 264 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 1: Did writing the book change the way you think about 265 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:40,600 Speaker 1: the relationship between humans and animals? 266 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 2: I do think that there is a way in which 267 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:47,120 Speaker 2: our relationship with dogs and cats, especially, you know, the 268 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:49,760 Speaker 2: sort of pure sweetness of it that a lot of 269 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:53,080 Speaker 2: us experience now, like it had a darker side in 270 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:54,760 Speaker 2: the pre vaccine era. 271 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:57,960 Speaker 1: Your dog could turn into a monster and kill you 272 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:00,680 Speaker 1: or your child. Yes, that was like a real thing 273 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:02,200 Speaker 1: that could definitely have It was a. 274 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:05,480 Speaker 2: Real thing, and that was that made it really hard 275 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:08,560 Speaker 2: to like love and baby our dogs in quite the 276 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:11,080 Speaker 2: same way as we do today. 277 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:15,240 Speaker 1: So like this modern phenomenon of the dog being to 278 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:18,120 Speaker 1: what is arguably a weird extent a part of the family, 279 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:21,800 Speaker 1: and I include my own family as you know, in 280 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:25,240 Speaker 1: that that like, you couldn't really have that without pasteur 281 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:26,560 Speaker 1: without the rabies vaccine. 282 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:31,040 Speaker 2: It certainly doesn't reach its sort of completion without that. 283 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 2: I mean, it's wonderful for those of us who love dogs. 284 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:37,720 Speaker 1: Thank you, Monica. That was delightful. 285 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:40,280 Speaker 2: Yeah. Thanks. 286 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 1: Monica Murphy is the co author with Bill Wassick, of Rabbit, 287 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:49,240 Speaker 1: a Cultural History of the world's most diabolical virus. Their 288 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:53,360 Speaker 1: most recent book is Our Kindred Creatures, How Americans came 289 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:56,760 Speaker 1: to feel the way they do about animals. We'll be 290 00:16:56,800 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 1: back in a minute to talk about the surprising way 291 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:03,120 Speaker 1: that wildlife bilegious are fighting rabies in America right now. 292 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:13,119 Speaker 1: By the early part of the twenty first century, the 293 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:17,439 Speaker 1: rabies vaccine had almost entirely eliminated rabies from people and 294 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 1: dogs in the United States, but the disease has persisted 295 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:25,160 Speaker 1: in wild animals. I talked about this with Kathy Nelson 296 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:26,040 Speaker 1: years ago. 297 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:28,760 Speaker 3: When I was in Vermont. We used to operate a 298 00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 3: rabies hotline in the state. It would get calls in 299 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:33,480 Speaker 3: from the public and we would sometimes go out to 300 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:37,960 Speaker 3: investigate them, and we had a skunk that was trying 301 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:40,960 Speaker 3: to bite the gas cap off of a lawnmower, and 302 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:45,760 Speaker 3: they'll just bite anything that's in sight, because that's one 303 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:49,000 Speaker 3: of the fascinating parts about the virus is that it's 304 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 3: designed to tell the brain to bite things. 305 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:56,080 Speaker 1: Kathy is the wildlife biologist and the operations supervisor for 306 00:17:56,160 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 1: the National Rabies Management Program with the US Department of Agriculture. 307 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 1: For the past twenty six years, she's been part of 308 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:05,919 Speaker 1: a federal program that has been fighting rabies in a 309 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:08,359 Speaker 1: way that that I have to say, I found delightful. 310 00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:12,280 Speaker 1: So tell me about the first time you went up 311 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:16,719 Speaker 1: in the air, too, fleeing rabies vaccines at the ground. 312 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:21,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, I still remember. It was so exciting. You you know, 313 00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 3: you help load all these baits onto a plane. You 314 00:18:25,119 --> 00:18:27,720 Speaker 3: walk up the little steps of the small plane, you 315 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:30,119 Speaker 3: get in it, someone closes the hatch on you. You know, 316 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:34,440 Speaker 3: the engines start, you take off. You're flying over beautiful 317 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:39,760 Speaker 3: terrain and landscape, just beautiful agricultural forested land, and you know, 318 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 3: the person up front says, okay, machine on and you know, 319 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:45,199 Speaker 3: baits are going down this little belt and I'm just 320 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:48,439 Speaker 3: moving them around looking out the window, seeing moose, deer, 321 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:51,760 Speaker 3: you know, all kinds of wildlife. I could literally could 322 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 3: not believe that I was getting paid to do a 323 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:54,199 Speaker 3: job like this. 324 00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 1: What kind of plans were you going up? 325 00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:58,960 Speaker 3: Then they have a single wing, two engines. 326 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:01,000 Speaker 1: How many seats? It's like, how small is it? 327 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:03,440 Speaker 3: If there were seats in them, there probably would be. 328 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 3: There would probably be about a dozen seats. 329 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 1: You're basically fly that cargo van. Yeah, so these baits 330 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:15,800 Speaker 1: are falling from the sky. Maybe this is a dumb question, 331 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:17,960 Speaker 1: but like, is there ever any word they're going to 332 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:19,119 Speaker 1: hit somebody on the head. 333 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:22,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, No, not a dumb question at all. Yeah, So 334 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:25,080 Speaker 3: the navigator in the front seat, not the pilot, but 335 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:28,639 Speaker 3: the other person who is a USDA wild Life Services employee. 336 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:31,360 Speaker 3: They have an on off switch, So anytime we're approaching 337 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:34,399 Speaker 3: a house or a road or a major body of water, 338 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:37,919 Speaker 3: that switch goes off so that baits aren't distributed. You know, 339 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:40,160 Speaker 3: over the course of a twenty five year program, we've 340 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:44,680 Speaker 3: hit a roof for two. But fortunately, you know, once 341 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:48,920 Speaker 3: folks learn about our program, they're generally really really accepting 342 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:51,200 Speaker 3: of it, and you know, they're not too mad. 343 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:54,720 Speaker 1: Is it happening like literally today is it happening this, 344 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:57,800 Speaker 1: you know, we're talking in August of twenty twenty four. 345 00:19:58,520 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 1: Is there a plane in the air today? 346 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 3: There is? Literally I got a text this morning saying 347 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 3: all five aircraft are taxing for run ups and take 348 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:09,120 Speaker 3: off in Watertown. That's Watertown, New York. 349 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:12,240 Speaker 1: Tell me about the baits, like, what's one of them 350 00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:14,199 Speaker 1: look like? Taste like? 351 00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:18,280 Speaker 3: So we use different vaccine types. One of them looks 352 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:21,119 Speaker 3: like kind of like a little ketchup packet with a 353 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:23,919 Speaker 3: slight oil on the outside and attached to that oil 354 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:25,160 Speaker 3: or tiny little fish. 355 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:31,680 Speaker 1: Mail crumbs fishmeal sounds delicious to a raccoon, I'm sure, yeah, Okay. 356 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:34,280 Speaker 3: So the other company they make a sweet bait, and 357 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:38,520 Speaker 3: it's a sugary, sweet, like marshmallow kind of sweet vanilla 358 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:39,200 Speaker 3: based bait. 359 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:41,720 Speaker 1: Presumably you can't just like fling these things out of 360 00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:45,040 Speaker 1: an airplane over a city, right, So how do you 361 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:46,920 Speaker 1: do it? In you know, urban areas. 362 00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:50,800 Speaker 3: Primarily we drive around in trucks. You know, someone's driving 363 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:52,960 Speaker 3: another person has the window down in the passenger seat. 364 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:58,000 Speaker 3: They're tossing a couple baits down. We record the location 365 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 3: of all of these baits with a GPS unit, so 366 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:04,080 Speaker 3: that we know where we've baited. Our biggest struggle right 367 00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:08,080 Speaker 3: now is because there's so many other food sources, you know, 368 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:11,119 Speaker 3: trying to pull them away from a dumpster full of 369 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:15,119 Speaker 3: pizza to eat one of our baits is a real challenge. 370 00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:17,960 Speaker 1: I have literally feed a raccoon in Prospect Park in 371 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:21,000 Speaker 1: Brooklyn eating a whole slice of It's. Yeah. 372 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:23,680 Speaker 3: They I mean, they're omnivores, so they're going to eat 373 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:26,920 Speaker 3: anything you know around. But we have done a ton 374 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:31,920 Speaker 3: of research in urban areas looking at movement patterns, home 375 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:33,919 Speaker 3: range sizes, because you have to get them right in 376 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:35,840 Speaker 3: the right spot for them to even find them. 377 00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:39,160 Speaker 1: So let's talk about the scope of the project now, 378 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:42,000 Speaker 1: Like what is the range of where you where you 379 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:42,400 Speaker 1: do this. 380 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 3: We have a band of vaccine distribution zone that goes 381 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:51,480 Speaker 3: from Maine kind of across the Canada border down to 382 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:55,240 Speaker 3: Ohio and then pretty much straight down from Ohio to Alabama, 383 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:58,720 Speaker 3: and that's designed to stop the westward spread of raccoon 384 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:01,080 Speaker 3: Raby's and the northward spread into Canada. 385 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:04,600 Speaker 1: Oh interesting, it's like a line of defense. 386 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:06,200 Speaker 3: Yep, exactly. 387 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:10,480 Speaker 1: Was that the notion when you started was the issue like, oh, 388 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:16,160 Speaker 1: rabies is spreading let's defend against the spread of rabies. 389 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:18,960 Speaker 3: Yes, So the story of raccoon rabies is a really 390 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:22,520 Speaker 3: interesting one. Raccoon rabies was first sort of documented in 391 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:25,760 Speaker 3: the late nineteen forties in Florida. But then there were 392 00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:30,720 Speaker 3: some raccoon hunters from West Virginia, Virginia area who wanted 393 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:33,560 Speaker 3: to replenish their raccoon supply. They went down It was 394 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 3: real commonplace back then to move raccoons around for raccoon hunting, 395 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:40,560 Speaker 3: so they went down south, got some raccoons, released them 396 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:44,240 Speaker 3: into an area on the Virginia West Virginia line and 397 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:48,280 Speaker 3: inevitably released some rabid raccoons without knowing it, and then 398 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:55,360 Speaker 3: raccoon rabies exploded from there. It reached most Northeastern states 399 00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:56,600 Speaker 3: by the early nineties. 400 00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:01,560 Speaker 1: And is there risk of raccoons passing rabies to humans? 401 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:05,080 Speaker 3: Yeah? Absolutely. Over the years there have been humans that 402 00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:09,240 Speaker 3: have contracted raccoon rabies. Certainly, human health and safety is 403 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:13,200 Speaker 3: always paramount. Also animal health and safety. You know, every 404 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:17,399 Speaker 3: year there's there's about three hundred cats in the US 405 00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:21,200 Speaker 3: that die from rabies. There's about fifty dogs that die 406 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:24,960 Speaker 3: from rabis. It's a cost benefit sort of program where 407 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:28,919 Speaker 3: what it costs us to manage our program is significantly 408 00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:31,880 Speaker 3: less than what it costs the American public to live 409 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:35,200 Speaker 3: with rabies every year, just in terms of healthcare costs, 410 00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:40,160 Speaker 3: you know, public education, post exposure, prophylaxis, all of that 411 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:41,520 Speaker 3: adds up really fast. 412 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:45,199 Speaker 1: So the program started in the nineties to stop the 413 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:49,600 Speaker 1: spread of raccoon rabies. Has it worked? Did it stop 414 00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:51,000 Speaker 1: the spread of raccoon rabies? 415 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:51,879 Speaker 2: It did. 416 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:54,760 Speaker 3: After we distribute baits, about a month after, we go 417 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:58,080 Speaker 3: back into an area and we use live traps to 418 00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:00,760 Speaker 3: catch raccoons, We take a blood sam pull from a 419 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:03,840 Speaker 3: pull a tooth, wigh them, sects them, takes some general 420 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:07,560 Speaker 3: notes on you know, their condition, and that blood sample 421 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:09,399 Speaker 3: get sent off to the lab and that tells us 422 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:13,200 Speaker 3: ultimately whether or not they have antibodies against rabies. And 423 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:15,679 Speaker 3: the tooth gives us their age and also tells us 424 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:17,600 Speaker 3: whether or not they ate the bait because the bait 425 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:22,040 Speaker 3: has a biomarker that stains their tooth. So that whole process, 426 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:24,760 Speaker 3: that's our monitoring program, along with all the surveillance we 427 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:28,119 Speaker 3: do where we do pick up dead raccoons off the 428 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:31,840 Speaker 3: road and test them for rabies. The centers for Disease Control. 429 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:37,600 Speaker 3: CDC has documented a seventy seven percent decline in raccoons 430 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:41,119 Speaker 3: with raccoon variants since our program began in nineteen ninety seven, 431 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:45,320 Speaker 3: so we know it's working. We've made significant progress in 432 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:49,440 Speaker 3: being able to move that zone to the east toward 433 00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:52,080 Speaker 3: the ocean, which is what you know, our ultimate goal 434 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:55,240 Speaker 3: is that bait zone of containment, and then just keep 435 00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:57,920 Speaker 3: marching it toward the ocean till, you know, till you've 436 00:24:58,720 --> 00:24:59,959 Speaker 3: eliminated the variant. 437 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:02,560 Speaker 1: Right when you get to the sea, you're done. You're 438 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:03,760 Speaker 1: like marching to the sea. 439 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:05,119 Speaker 3: Yep, you're done. 440 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:08,000 Speaker 1: So so you've been doing this a long time. You 441 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:12,640 Speaker 1: are a wildlife biologist by training. I'm curious if your 442 00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:16,480 Speaker 1: career has changed the way you feel about wildlife, about 443 00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:19,440 Speaker 1: the relationship between humans and wildlife. 444 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:22,360 Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean I love all wildlife, you know. When 445 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:25,800 Speaker 3: I was in college getting my degree, you know, like 446 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:28,879 Speaker 3: any wildlife professional, I think you dream of, you know, 447 00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:31,879 Speaker 3: working with polar bears or mountain lions or you know, 448 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:35,960 Speaker 3: some some big charismatic megafauna and you know, and I 449 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:39,639 Speaker 3: landed on raccoons, But I wouldn't change it for anything. 450 00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:42,879 Speaker 3: That they're so smart, they have not made a trash 451 00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:48,399 Speaker 3: can yet that they can't get into, or they're just 452 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:50,680 Speaker 3: you know, if you have ever seen one up close 453 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:54,560 Speaker 3: or I you know, I would encourage any listeners if 454 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:57,240 Speaker 3: they have the opportunity and they see one dead on 455 00:25:57,280 --> 00:25:59,920 Speaker 3: the road. It sounds crazy, but just stop and look 456 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:03,560 Speaker 3: at it. They're fascinating animals. They have little hands, just 457 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:08,040 Speaker 3: like we do. They have an opposable thumb. Genetically, they're 458 00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 3: closer in origin to bears than they are to like 459 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:14,960 Speaker 3: cats and dogs and those kind of things. So they're 460 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:18,720 Speaker 3: just really smart animals. They think about what they're doing. 461 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:21,720 Speaker 3: We have a National Wildlife Research Center and they did 462 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:24,600 Speaker 3: a side study where they would put a marshmallow in 463 00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:26,919 Speaker 3: the tub of water and the raccoons would learn that 464 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:28,919 Speaker 3: all they had to do was keep putting more rocks 465 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:31,120 Speaker 3: in the water till that marshmallow rose to the top 466 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:34,120 Speaker 3: and they could reach in and eat it. So that's 467 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:36,680 Speaker 3: just one example of how smart they are and how 468 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:38,840 Speaker 3: if they're given enough time, they'll figure something out. 469 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:41,800 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for your time. It was great 470 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:42,399 Speaker 1: to speak with you. 471 00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 3: Yeah you too, thanks for having me. 472 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:48,360 Speaker 1: Kathy Nelson is a wildlife biologist with the US Department 473 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,879 Speaker 1: of Agriculture. Thanks to both my guests today, Kathy Nelson 474 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:58,200 Speaker 1: and Monica Murphy. Next week on Incubation, I'm met on 475 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:00,080 Speaker 1: my mind that I have to go do it, but 476 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,320 Speaker 1: at a same time, I was going to deal with 477 00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:06,679 Speaker 1: the beasts, which means I may not come back home alive. 478 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:12,159 Speaker 1: Incubation is a co production of Pushkin Industries and Ruby 479 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:16,640 Speaker 1: Studio at iHeartMedia. It's produced by Kate Ferby and Brittany Cronin. 480 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:19,960 Speaker 1: The show is edited by Lacy Roberts. It's mastered by 481 00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:24,520 Speaker 1: Sarah Bruguier, fact checking by Joseph friedman Or. Executive producers 482 00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:28,040 Speaker 1: are Lacey Roberts and Matt Romano. I'm Jacob Goldstein. Thanks 483 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:28,560 Speaker 1: for listening.