1 00:00:15,516 --> 00:00:20,596 Speaker 1: Pushkin, Hey, Happiness Lab listeners. Today, I want to share 2 00:00:20,636 --> 00:00:23,836 Speaker 1: a special episode from our friends at Fixable, who recently 3 00:00:23,836 --> 00:00:25,796 Speaker 1: had me on their show to talk about how we 4 00:00:25,836 --> 00:00:28,916 Speaker 1: can all become happier at work. On the show, I 5 00:00:28,996 --> 00:00:31,996 Speaker 1: chat with business leaders Anne Morris and Francis Frey about 6 00:00:31,996 --> 00:00:34,316 Speaker 1: the conditions we all need to thrive on the job. 7 00:00:34,796 --> 00:00:37,156 Speaker 1: I hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did. 8 00:00:40,676 --> 00:00:43,756 Speaker 2: Francis kiss us off today? What made you happy this week? 9 00:00:44,556 --> 00:00:46,316 Speaker 2: To word Caitlin Clark. 10 00:00:46,956 --> 00:00:53,676 Speaker 3: Let me explain the WNBA is riveting and awesome and 11 00:00:53,756 --> 00:00:56,956 Speaker 3: even though I played basketball in college, I wasn't watching 12 00:00:56,996 --> 00:01:00,356 Speaker 3: it as diligently as I am now. And so what 13 00:01:00,476 --> 00:01:01,516 Speaker 3: made me happy this week? 14 00:01:01,796 --> 00:01:03,236 Speaker 2: I have a new Caitlin Clark jersey. 15 00:01:03,876 --> 00:01:08,396 Speaker 4: It has definitely brought a new level of joy into 16 00:01:08,396 --> 00:01:11,716 Speaker 4: the house. Thank you to my dear sister in law, 17 00:01:11,796 --> 00:01:15,116 Speaker 4: Zoe Rodriguez for sending the jerseys. 18 00:01:14,916 --> 00:01:16,916 Speaker 5: Which I wear every time I watch the game. 19 00:01:18,076 --> 00:01:20,396 Speaker 2: Sparking joy for the rest of us as well. Can 20 00:01:20,436 --> 00:01:21,236 Speaker 2: I ask the fall question? 21 00:01:21,356 --> 00:01:24,556 Speaker 4: Yeah, we just did a great episode on routines. Do 22 00:01:24,676 --> 00:01:28,716 Speaker 4: you have a game day routine for watching Caitlin play? 23 00:01:28,836 --> 00:01:28,996 Speaker 6: Oh? 24 00:01:29,036 --> 00:01:31,516 Speaker 3: I sure do so I begin every morning at breakfast 25 00:01:31,516 --> 00:01:33,236 Speaker 3: to tell the boys what time the game is on. 26 00:01:33,276 --> 00:01:34,716 Speaker 3: They don't watch the game with me, but I tell 27 00:01:34,716 --> 00:01:36,716 Speaker 3: them when the game is just so that they know 28 00:01:36,796 --> 00:01:37,796 Speaker 3: what I will be doing. 29 00:01:37,876 --> 00:01:40,716 Speaker 2: And they're teenage boy they don't register time and plan. 30 00:01:41,076 --> 00:01:42,956 Speaker 2: But that's where it begins. 31 00:01:43,156 --> 00:01:46,156 Speaker 3: And then there is a cascade of planning that I 32 00:01:46,236 --> 00:01:48,356 Speaker 3: keep checking the clock. I keep saying every time I 33 00:01:48,356 --> 00:01:50,916 Speaker 3: see you, I say what time the game is. Anytime 34 00:01:51,156 --> 00:01:53,196 Speaker 3: I think of anything. And then I set up on 35 00:01:53,236 --> 00:01:55,156 Speaker 3: the couch so that my feet are elevated. 36 00:01:55,556 --> 00:01:56,236 Speaker 2: I'm watching. 37 00:01:56,396 --> 00:02:00,596 Speaker 3: I have my apple juice and my pretzels as I watch, and. 38 00:02:00,476 --> 00:02:01,916 Speaker 2: I get ready to go. 39 00:02:01,996 --> 00:02:02,556 Speaker 3: But I need a light. 40 00:02:02,596 --> 00:02:04,116 Speaker 6: Nobody can sit right next to me. I need a 41 00:02:04,156 --> 00:02:05,756 Speaker 6: lot of space. I have a little lot of moves. 42 00:02:05,796 --> 00:02:07,996 Speaker 6: Nobody wants to sit right next to you for this experience. 43 00:02:08,036 --> 00:02:10,036 Speaker 6: I'm not sure I'm ready to dig the set of 44 00:02:10,076 --> 00:02:12,916 Speaker 6: activities by calling it a ritual. But it is what 45 00:02:12,996 --> 00:02:17,236 Speaker 6: you do every single time, every single time. Yeah, all right, 46 00:02:17,636 --> 00:02:21,556 Speaker 6: let's get into today's conversation. The secret memo to happiness 47 00:02:21,636 --> 00:02:27,556 Speaker 6: at work. Our guest is the expert on happiness. Tell 48 00:02:27,596 --> 00:02:28,556 Speaker 6: the people who she is. 49 00:02:29,196 --> 00:02:33,996 Speaker 3: Oh Professor Laurie Santos. She's a cognitive scientist and professor 50 00:02:33,996 --> 00:02:38,156 Speaker 3: of psychology at Yale. Super Smart. She teaches the most 51 00:02:38,236 --> 00:02:42,596 Speaker 3: popular course in the school's history, not like this year 52 00:02:42,716 --> 00:02:45,836 Speaker 3: or last year, in the whole history of the school, 53 00:02:45,876 --> 00:02:48,996 Speaker 3: and it's about the science of happiness, which is so 54 00:02:49,276 --> 00:02:50,076 Speaker 3: alluring to me. 55 00:02:50,356 --> 00:02:53,876 Speaker 4: Yes, something like a full quarter of the entire student 56 00:02:53,916 --> 00:02:55,756 Speaker 4: body takes this class every year. 57 00:02:56,156 --> 00:02:58,356 Speaker 3: That is amazing to me. I think if all courses 58 00:02:58,396 --> 00:03:01,396 Speaker 3: were voluntary, there wouldn't be another course that the quarter 59 00:03:01,636 --> 00:03:03,156 Speaker 3: of the student body would take. 60 00:03:03,796 --> 00:03:04,396 Speaker 2: It's amazing. 61 00:03:04,436 --> 00:03:08,596 Speaker 4: So she also teaches this course on a platform called Coursera, 62 00:03:09,236 --> 00:03:13,396 Speaker 4: where another five million people have taken it, and she 63 00:03:13,436 --> 00:03:15,956 Speaker 4: hosts a terrific podcast called The Happiness Lab. I've been 64 00:03:15,996 --> 00:03:19,236 Speaker 4: a follower for years where she keeps this conversation going 65 00:03:19,396 --> 00:03:22,276 Speaker 4: and talks with experts about the latest science on happiness. 66 00:03:22,676 --> 00:03:23,876 Speaker 2: I can't wait to get into this. 67 00:03:23,956 --> 00:03:26,636 Speaker 5: I have so many questions and so much to learn. 68 00:03:41,716 --> 00:03:43,756 Speaker 2: Doctor Lorie Santos, Welcome to the show. 69 00:03:43,836 --> 00:03:45,436 Speaker 5: Thanks so much for having me on the show. 70 00:03:45,476 --> 00:03:48,836 Speaker 4: We are very big fans of yours. Let me start here. 71 00:03:49,236 --> 00:03:53,756 Speaker 4: What parts of your own story would surprise your younger self? 72 00:03:54,356 --> 00:03:56,956 Speaker 5: Oh, I mean, I think so many parts of my story. 73 00:03:57,796 --> 00:04:01,076 Speaker 5: You know, I got interested in psychology not because I 74 00:04:01,116 --> 00:04:03,316 Speaker 5: was interested in happiness, but because I was interested in 75 00:04:03,356 --> 00:04:05,836 Speaker 5: what makes human special. And so I spent a lot 76 00:04:05,876 --> 00:04:09,036 Speaker 5: of my time studying monkeys and how they make decisions 77 00:04:09,116 --> 00:04:11,516 Speaker 5: about the world and how they make sense of the world. 78 00:04:11,956 --> 00:04:13,756 Speaker 5: And that was just kind of what I was doing 79 00:04:13,916 --> 00:04:17,156 Speaker 5: for you know, over twenty years. I got interested in 80 00:04:17,196 --> 00:04:19,956 Speaker 5: the well being work in part because I saw, like 81 00:04:20,036 --> 00:04:22,196 Speaker 5: in my students, the kind of crisis that where so 82 00:04:22,236 --> 00:04:24,836 Speaker 5: many young people are experiencing today. I took on this 83 00:04:24,876 --> 00:04:26,476 Speaker 5: new role at Yale, where I became a head of 84 00:04:26,516 --> 00:04:28,836 Speaker 5: college on campus, which meant I was like living with 85 00:04:28,876 --> 00:04:30,916 Speaker 5: students and hanging out with them in the dining hall. 86 00:04:31,276 --> 00:04:33,156 Speaker 5: And that was when I really saw just how much 87 00:04:33,156 --> 00:04:35,596 Speaker 5: students were struggling these days. You know, students in my 88 00:04:35,636 --> 00:04:39,076 Speaker 5: college who were experiencing depression and anxiety, you know, having 89 00:04:39,156 --> 00:04:42,796 Speaker 5: panic attacks, you know, experiencing suicidality. Like it was much 90 00:04:42,916 --> 00:04:45,516 Speaker 5: rougher than I assumed things were, you know, among young 91 00:04:45,516 --> 00:04:48,316 Speaker 5: people today. And so that was when I sort of 92 00:04:48,356 --> 00:04:51,156 Speaker 5: developed this new focus and asked, Okay, what is my 93 00:04:51,276 --> 00:04:53,756 Speaker 5: field of psychology have to say about the kinds of 94 00:04:53,756 --> 00:04:56,196 Speaker 5: things we can all be doing to feel better, whether 95 00:04:56,276 --> 00:04:58,916 Speaker 5: that's in college with my students, or in the workplace, 96 00:04:59,036 --> 00:05:01,756 Speaker 5: or just in our own personal lives. And I realized 97 00:05:01,796 --> 00:05:03,836 Speaker 5: there's so many things that our field has to say 98 00:05:03,836 --> 00:05:05,716 Speaker 5: about what we can do to feel less burned out, 99 00:05:05,716 --> 00:05:07,916 Speaker 5: to feel less stressed, and so on, And so I 100 00:05:07,996 --> 00:05:10,476 Speaker 5: just made this like complete pivot to kind of doing 101 00:05:10,556 --> 00:05:12,036 Speaker 5: the happiness work all the time. 102 00:05:12,516 --> 00:05:13,876 Speaker 4: Yeah, I was going to ask you how you got 103 00:05:13,916 --> 00:05:18,396 Speaker 4: from Darwin to happiness. And I'm curious as the visibility 104 00:05:18,556 --> 00:05:22,796 Speaker 4: of the field of evolutionary biology has kind of grown, 105 00:05:22,836 --> 00:05:25,236 Speaker 4: I feel like a whole other revolution has been sparked over. 106 00:05:25,276 --> 00:05:28,116 Speaker 4: There is there anything we can learn from monkeys about 107 00:05:28,156 --> 00:05:29,116 Speaker 4: what makes us happier? 108 00:05:29,916 --> 00:05:31,436 Speaker 5: Yeah, for sure. I mean, you know, one of the 109 00:05:31,476 --> 00:05:33,676 Speaker 5: things is that I was never happier in my life 110 00:05:33,716 --> 00:05:36,196 Speaker 5: than when I was out in the field studying monkeys, right, 111 00:05:36,236 --> 00:05:38,476 Speaker 5: And I think that's in part because you know, just 112 00:05:38,556 --> 00:05:41,316 Speaker 5: being around them makes you feel really present. You know, 113 00:05:41,356 --> 00:05:44,436 Speaker 5: they don't feel like they're kind of off ruminating about 114 00:05:44,476 --> 00:05:46,756 Speaker 5: the past or sort of thinking about the future and 115 00:05:46,796 --> 00:05:49,716 Speaker 5: worrying about what's going to happen. They're just there grooming 116 00:05:49,916 --> 00:05:52,636 Speaker 5: or eating or staring off into the sunset. Right, They're 117 00:05:52,676 --> 00:05:55,996 Speaker 5: just there, present, doing whatever they're doing. And that's a 118 00:05:56,076 --> 00:05:58,236 Speaker 5: lesson that I really take with me into the happiness 119 00:05:58,276 --> 00:06:00,716 Speaker 5: work is that, you know, far too often we just 120 00:06:00,716 --> 00:06:03,076 Speaker 5: spend so much time worried about what's going to happen 121 00:06:03,156 --> 00:06:05,436 Speaker 5: and planning for the future. If we could just kind 122 00:06:05,436 --> 00:06:07,756 Speaker 5: of be and flow and whatever we're doing in the 123 00:06:07,756 --> 00:06:10,236 Speaker 5: present moment, I think we'd all feel a lot better. 124 00:06:11,396 --> 00:06:11,916 Speaker 2: I love that. 125 00:06:12,196 --> 00:06:15,036 Speaker 4: So this is a show about work, and we want 126 00:06:15,076 --> 00:06:18,396 Speaker 4: to talk about happiness on the job today, how to 127 00:06:18,436 --> 00:06:20,956 Speaker 4: make ourselves happy, but also how to make other people 128 00:06:20,996 --> 00:06:23,756 Speaker 4: happy and create the conditions for other people to thrive, 129 00:06:23,796 --> 00:06:26,676 Speaker 4: which is really one of the core mandates of leadership. 130 00:06:27,316 --> 00:06:31,436 Speaker 4: We use a lot of euphemisms for happiness at work, 131 00:06:31,716 --> 00:06:37,676 Speaker 4: well being, satisfaction, sentiment. It almost feels too audacious to 132 00:06:37,836 --> 00:06:41,036 Speaker 4: kind of name happiness as the goal. Are these all 133 00:06:41,076 --> 00:06:44,476 Speaker 4: the same things or is there something specific about happiness 134 00:06:44,476 --> 00:06:46,596 Speaker 4: that you're trying to capture in your work. 135 00:06:47,316 --> 00:06:50,036 Speaker 5: Yeah. I think usually when we're using these euphemisms, we 136 00:06:50,196 --> 00:06:52,316 Speaker 5: kind of mean what we think we mean, right, This 137 00:06:52,436 --> 00:06:55,156 Speaker 5: idea that we can be happy in our lives in 138 00:06:55,196 --> 00:06:57,196 Speaker 5: a workplace, right, you know, we can kind of feel 139 00:06:57,236 --> 00:06:59,436 Speaker 5: positive emotion when we're at work, We can feel a 140 00:06:59,476 --> 00:07:02,596 Speaker 5: sense of belonging. Maybe we reduce all the negative emotions 141 00:07:02,596 --> 00:07:05,436 Speaker 5: at work, like you know, stress and frustration and so on, 142 00:07:05,716 --> 00:07:07,436 Speaker 5: so we can kind of be happy in our lives 143 00:07:07,476 --> 00:07:10,076 Speaker 5: at work. But I think that term wellbeing also wants 144 00:07:10,156 --> 00:07:12,516 Speaker 5: us to capture the sense that we're satisfied at work, 145 00:07:12,516 --> 00:07:15,396 Speaker 5: that we believe we're doing something that has meaning and purpose. 146 00:07:15,796 --> 00:07:17,316 Speaker 5: And so I think that's what the terms are trying 147 00:07:17,316 --> 00:07:19,236 Speaker 5: to capture, the sense that you can kind of be 148 00:07:19,316 --> 00:07:21,556 Speaker 5: happy in the moment at work. And also when you 149 00:07:21,596 --> 00:07:23,516 Speaker 5: think about what you're doing, you really do get a 150 00:07:23,556 --> 00:07:26,276 Speaker 5: sense of meaning and purpose. And so I think when 151 00:07:26,316 --> 00:07:28,236 Speaker 5: push comes to shove, we're going to really see purpose 152 00:07:28,236 --> 00:07:31,636 Speaker 5: as being a foundational element of happiness, and therefore the 153 00:07:31,716 --> 00:07:33,316 Speaker 5: kind of thing that we really want to think about 154 00:07:33,356 --> 00:07:35,516 Speaker 5: how we can bring into work more readily. 155 00:07:36,156 --> 00:07:38,796 Speaker 4: This point feels connected to an idea you explored on 156 00:07:38,836 --> 00:07:41,996 Speaker 4: the Happiness Lab, which is that more is not necessarily more. 157 00:07:42,036 --> 00:07:44,796 Speaker 4: When it comes to free time, there's like a sweet 158 00:07:44,836 --> 00:07:47,756 Speaker 4: spot which is not less than two hours a day, 159 00:07:47,836 --> 00:07:51,036 Speaker 4: but also not more than five. So can you tell 160 00:07:51,116 --> 00:07:52,956 Speaker 4: us about this counterintuitive finding. 161 00:07:53,596 --> 00:07:55,196 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean this is a lot of the work 162 00:07:55,236 --> 00:07:58,316 Speaker 5: of Carrie Mullinger in her colleagues, which which really tries 163 00:07:58,356 --> 00:08:00,396 Speaker 5: to ask the question, you know, how much time do 164 00:08:00,476 --> 00:08:03,356 Speaker 5: we really need to feel good? And I think for 165 00:08:03,476 --> 00:08:06,316 Speaker 5: most of us, more time will be better. You know, 166 00:08:06,716 --> 00:08:08,836 Speaker 5: work by Ashley Williams at Harvard Business School has really 167 00:08:08,836 --> 00:08:11,236 Speaker 5: shown and that we kind of are experiencing a dearth 168 00:08:11,276 --> 00:08:14,036 Speaker 5: of what she calls time affluence, this sort of subjective 169 00:08:14,076 --> 00:08:17,036 Speaker 5: sense that we have some free time. Many more of 170 00:08:17,116 --> 00:08:19,836 Speaker 5: us experience what you might call time famine right where 171 00:08:19,836 --> 00:08:22,836 Speaker 5: we're kind of literally starving for time, and Ashley's work 172 00:08:22,836 --> 00:08:26,196 Speaker 5: shows just how bad this kind of time famine can be. 173 00:08:26,356 --> 00:08:28,756 Speaker 5: In fact, she has one statistic that if you self 174 00:08:28,796 --> 00:08:31,476 Speaker 5: report being really time famished, there's as much of a 175 00:08:31,516 --> 00:08:33,436 Speaker 5: hit on your well being as if you self report 176 00:08:33,476 --> 00:08:35,836 Speaker 5: being unemployed. You know, most of your listeners would be 177 00:08:35,836 --> 00:08:38,596 Speaker 5: pretty upset if they lost their job tomorrow. Just not 178 00:08:38,716 --> 00:08:41,196 Speaker 5: having any free time at all is as bad as 179 00:08:41,196 --> 00:08:43,916 Speaker 5: that in terms of your happiness. So for many of us, 180 00:08:43,996 --> 00:08:46,516 Speaker 5: the advice is just like, get more free time. That's 181 00:08:46,556 --> 00:08:49,716 Speaker 5: probably going to be good. But Cassie's work has really 182 00:08:49,756 --> 00:08:51,916 Speaker 5: shown that, like, if you kind of push it too 183 00:08:51,996 --> 00:08:54,636 Speaker 5: far in the other direction, then that's not really that 184 00:08:54,756 --> 00:08:55,396 Speaker 5: great either. 185 00:08:55,876 --> 00:08:56,036 Speaker 2: Right. 186 00:08:56,156 --> 00:08:58,476 Speaker 5: What we really want is sort of structured amounts of 187 00:08:58,516 --> 00:09:01,796 Speaker 5: free time that we can wind up using for purposes 188 00:09:01,876 --> 00:09:04,476 Speaker 5: and activities that we really enjoy. Kind of if you 189 00:09:04,516 --> 00:09:06,316 Speaker 5: get too much of a good thing, then that winds 190 00:09:06,396 --> 00:09:07,276 Speaker 5: up being bad too. 191 00:09:08,316 --> 00:09:08,756 Speaker 2: I love it. 192 00:09:08,876 --> 00:09:12,276 Speaker 4: So it's so intuitive. I think my ceiling is is 193 00:09:12,676 --> 00:09:16,356 Speaker 4: my window is actually smaller. I think I think it's yeah, 194 00:09:16,436 --> 00:09:18,836 Speaker 4: three hours max, and I start getting restless. 195 00:09:19,316 --> 00:09:20,156 Speaker 2: I can go longer. 196 00:09:20,516 --> 00:09:21,476 Speaker 5: Yeah, you can go look at it. 197 00:09:21,516 --> 00:09:21,636 Speaker 4: Well. 198 00:09:21,636 --> 00:09:23,396 Speaker 5: I think that's I think that's an important, you know, 199 00:09:23,716 --> 00:09:25,796 Speaker 5: thing that comes up a lot on the happiness lab 200 00:09:25,836 --> 00:09:27,956 Speaker 5: and even in my course, right, which is, you know, 201 00:09:28,156 --> 00:09:30,276 Speaker 5: we're going to make these general pronouncements of what you 202 00:09:30,316 --> 00:09:32,876 Speaker 5: need to feel happier at work, whether that's more time 203 00:09:33,116 --> 00:09:36,196 Speaker 5: or more belonging and so on, for everybody. There's going 204 00:09:36,236 --> 00:09:38,836 Speaker 5: to be some individual differences there, right, you know. So 205 00:09:38,916 --> 00:09:41,956 Speaker 5: I think when we talk about these prescriptions, they're overall 206 00:09:41,996 --> 00:09:44,876 Speaker 5: good for people. But my advice is always, hey, try 207 00:09:44,916 --> 00:09:47,676 Speaker 5: it out yourself, do the experiment on what this feels 208 00:09:47,716 --> 00:09:49,756 Speaker 5: like for you, and then you can often come up 209 00:09:49,756 --> 00:09:51,836 Speaker 5: with your own sweet spot, and so I think that 210 00:09:51,836 --> 00:09:53,676 Speaker 5: that's good advice when it comes to you know, the 211 00:09:53,716 --> 00:09:56,676 Speaker 5: specific amount of free time you need to kind of thrive, 212 00:09:56,996 --> 00:09:59,316 Speaker 5: but also for all the different topics that we'll talk 213 00:09:59,356 --> 00:09:59,956 Speaker 5: about today. 214 00:10:00,516 --> 00:10:01,316 Speaker 2: That's liberating. 215 00:10:01,556 --> 00:10:01,836 Speaker 3: All right. 216 00:10:01,876 --> 00:10:04,236 Speaker 4: We really want to get into some tactics with you 217 00:10:04,316 --> 00:10:07,036 Speaker 4: because it's one piece of your work that's so powerful. 218 00:10:07,396 --> 00:10:08,676 Speaker 2: And we're going to do this in two parts. 219 00:10:08,756 --> 00:10:12,236 Speaker 4: So the the first part is how to make ourselves happier 220 00:10:12,316 --> 00:10:15,356 Speaker 4: at work, and then how to enable the happiness of 221 00:10:15,396 --> 00:10:15,956 Speaker 4: other people. 222 00:10:16,756 --> 00:10:19,276 Speaker 2: So, first make the case. 223 00:10:19,076 --> 00:10:22,636 Speaker 4: To our listeners to do some work here. What does 224 00:10:22,676 --> 00:10:26,316 Speaker 4: the data say about happier workers their own experience of 225 00:10:26,836 --> 00:10:27,516 Speaker 4: being on the job. 226 00:10:28,276 --> 00:10:30,436 Speaker 5: Yeah, well, I mean the data are pretty clear here, 227 00:10:30,476 --> 00:10:33,956 Speaker 5: which is that happier workers wind up like doing better 228 00:10:34,036 --> 00:10:36,516 Speaker 5: at work, they wind up performing better, they wind up 229 00:10:36,556 --> 00:10:39,356 Speaker 5: earning more money. It makes sense, right, If you're happier 230 00:10:39,396 --> 00:10:42,156 Speaker 5: at work and showing more positive emotion, if you feel 231 00:10:42,156 --> 00:10:44,836 Speaker 5: belonging at work, you're going to work harder. You're going 232 00:10:44,876 --> 00:10:47,076 Speaker 5: to come up with the more innovative solutions. You know, 233 00:10:47,316 --> 00:10:49,436 Speaker 5: think back to the last time you were feeling an 234 00:10:49,436 --> 00:10:53,236 Speaker 5: overwhelming amount of negative emotion. You probably weren't thinking super 235 00:10:53,276 --> 00:10:57,036 Speaker 5: clearly or making big innovative decisions like you were triaging, right, 236 00:10:57,036 --> 00:10:59,556 Speaker 5: You're just getting stuff off your desk. And so the 237 00:10:59,636 --> 00:11:01,916 Speaker 5: more we can find a way to feel happier at 238 00:11:01,996 --> 00:11:04,876 Speaker 5: work ourselves, the better we're going to do at our job, 239 00:11:04,996 --> 00:11:07,276 Speaker 5: and we'll reap all the usual kind of rewards that 240 00:11:07,316 --> 00:11:09,436 Speaker 5: come with that, whether that's a higher level of setalary 241 00:11:09,556 --> 00:11:12,356 Speaker 5: or more accolades and promotions at work. Will just wind 242 00:11:12,436 --> 00:11:13,156 Speaker 5: up doing better. 243 00:11:13,396 --> 00:11:17,356 Speaker 3: I imagine that people will early question. People will ask as well, 244 00:11:17,396 --> 00:11:19,956 Speaker 3: if I'm doing really well, I'm happy. So how do 245 00:11:20,036 --> 00:11:23,916 Speaker 3: we know about the correlation versus causality? 246 00:11:24,596 --> 00:11:26,796 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean what researchers tend to do is like 247 00:11:26,876 --> 00:11:30,076 Speaker 5: do experiments where they force people into a good mood 248 00:11:30,156 --> 00:11:33,076 Speaker 5: and look at what happens to their performance. One of 249 00:11:33,116 --> 00:11:36,276 Speaker 5: my favorite studies did this with medical doctors. So you 250 00:11:36,276 --> 00:11:38,436 Speaker 5: bring medical doctors into the lab and you give them 251 00:11:38,436 --> 00:11:41,556 Speaker 5: a kind of tough medical problem. You all are old 252 00:11:41,636 --> 00:11:44,116 Speaker 5: enough to remember the TV show House or even QUINCMD. 253 00:11:44,276 --> 00:11:46,036 Speaker 5: You know these shows where like doctors get these kind 254 00:11:46,076 --> 00:11:48,756 Speaker 5: of tough problems' That's what these doctors got in the study. 255 00:11:49,196 --> 00:11:51,276 Speaker 5: But the key is that half of the doctors were 256 00:11:51,636 --> 00:11:53,676 Speaker 5: able to be in a good mood first. In this case, 257 00:11:53,676 --> 00:11:55,956 Speaker 5: they just did it very locally. They let doctors watch 258 00:11:56,036 --> 00:11:58,116 Speaker 5: some like silly cat videos, so it's kind of they're 259 00:11:58,196 --> 00:12:01,236 Speaker 5: laughing and sort of enjoying themselves. What happens, well, the 260 00:12:01,276 --> 00:12:03,276 Speaker 5: doctors who are in the good mood wind up coming 261 00:12:03,356 --> 00:12:06,396 Speaker 5: up with the most innovative solution to these tough problems. Right, 262 00:12:06,676 --> 00:12:08,436 Speaker 5: and so that's just like kind of local you know, 263 00:12:08,476 --> 00:12:10,756 Speaker 5: put yourself in good mood when there's a tricky task 264 00:12:10,836 --> 00:12:12,636 Speaker 5: on the line. But if we can do that a 265 00:12:12,636 --> 00:12:15,556 Speaker 5: little bit more chronically, right, if we can just look 266 00:12:15,676 --> 00:12:18,356 Speaker 5: forward to going to work every day, the ideas that 267 00:12:18,396 --> 00:12:21,036 Speaker 5: we too will be performing a little bit more innovatively 268 00:12:21,116 --> 00:12:23,196 Speaker 5: and a little bit better at work. I think there's 269 00:12:23,236 --> 00:12:25,876 Speaker 5: also an effect when we're in a positive mood of 270 00:12:25,996 --> 00:12:29,316 Speaker 5: what happens to other individuals in our organization. You know, 271 00:12:29,396 --> 00:12:32,876 Speaker 5: social psychologists have long known the emotion is contagious, right. 272 00:12:33,236 --> 00:12:34,876 Speaker 5: We know this in our own work life. When you 273 00:12:34,916 --> 00:12:37,516 Speaker 5: walk into a team meeting and there's that team member 274 00:12:37,556 --> 00:12:40,636 Speaker 5: who's kind of down in the dumps or really pessimistic, right, 275 00:12:40,876 --> 00:12:43,316 Speaker 5: you without whether you wanted to or not, that can 276 00:12:43,356 --> 00:12:46,116 Speaker 5: wind up affecting how you see that meeting, how you 277 00:12:46,196 --> 00:12:48,316 Speaker 5: view it. But we forget that we have the same 278 00:12:48,356 --> 00:12:52,836 Speaker 5: effect on other people. Sigall Barsaid used to call this 279 00:12:52,996 --> 00:12:56,636 Speaker 5: affective spirals. Right, we can kind of contagiously give our 280 00:12:56,716 --> 00:12:59,356 Speaker 5: affect to other people, and that means if we put 281 00:12:59,356 --> 00:13:01,956 Speaker 5: in some work to kind of increase our own mood 282 00:13:02,516 --> 00:13:05,196 Speaker 5: on the job, that winds up helping our team members 283 00:13:05,236 --> 00:13:07,516 Speaker 5: be a little bit more optimistic too. I often hear 284 00:13:07,556 --> 00:13:09,036 Speaker 5: people ask, you know, well, what can I do to me? 285 00:13:09,276 --> 00:13:12,396 Speaker 5: You know, my coworkers happier on the job. It's like, well, actually, 286 00:13:12,436 --> 00:13:15,036 Speaker 5: if you focus on becoming happier yourself on the job, 287 00:13:15,116 --> 00:13:17,316 Speaker 5: then that will have a huge effect on your team members. 288 00:13:17,556 --> 00:13:19,956 Speaker 5: Sometimes that can give the like really type A folks 289 00:13:19,956 --> 00:13:22,956 Speaker 5: and permission to take care of themselves because you recognize 290 00:13:22,956 --> 00:13:25,516 Speaker 5: it as a mechanism for caring for others too. 291 00:13:26,196 --> 00:13:28,556 Speaker 2: That's a beautiful reframe. I love that. 292 00:13:29,076 --> 00:13:32,236 Speaker 4: So you you give a terrific talk at south By 293 00:13:32,516 --> 00:13:36,596 Speaker 4: Southwest this year called five Tips to be Happier at Work, 294 00:13:36,636 --> 00:13:39,436 Speaker 4: which is available on the Happiness Lab and we encourage 295 00:13:39,436 --> 00:13:42,316 Speaker 4: everyone to listen to it. We want to talk about 296 00:13:42,396 --> 00:13:45,156 Speaker 4: two of the tips that really struck us and are 297 00:13:45,316 --> 00:13:48,236 Speaker 4: very aligned with our own work and our an experience 298 00:13:48,236 --> 00:13:51,116 Speaker 4: of work. So one strategy you talked about was something 299 00:13:51,196 --> 00:13:55,676 Speaker 4: you called job crafting, which, as we understand, it is 300 00:13:55,796 --> 00:13:59,396 Speaker 4: using whatever agency you have in any job to increase 301 00:13:59,396 --> 00:14:03,916 Speaker 4: the alignment between your superpowers and what you're actually doing 302 00:14:04,836 --> 00:14:06,636 Speaker 4: during the day. So tell us about this approach. 303 00:14:07,476 --> 00:14:09,756 Speaker 5: Yeah, so this is an approach that comes from Risnensky, 304 00:14:09,916 --> 00:14:11,476 Speaker 5: used to be my colleague at Yale and now is 305 00:14:11,516 --> 00:14:14,876 Speaker 5: at the University of Pennsylvania. Job crafting is exactly what 306 00:14:14,916 --> 00:14:16,676 Speaker 5: you said it was. It's kind of taking your job 307 00:14:16,716 --> 00:14:20,916 Speaker 5: description and finding ways to infuse your sort of signature strengths, 308 00:14:20,916 --> 00:14:23,516 Speaker 5: the kind of values and sort of habits that you 309 00:14:23,716 --> 00:14:26,516 Speaker 5: like to bring in. You know, positive psychologists have long 310 00:14:26,596 --> 00:14:29,116 Speaker 5: talked about this set of character strengths that all of 311 00:14:29,156 --> 00:14:31,716 Speaker 5: us have. You know, there are things like humor and bravery, 312 00:14:31,796 --> 00:14:34,556 Speaker 5: and a love of learning, and a zest for life, prudence, 313 00:14:34,596 --> 00:14:37,116 Speaker 5: you know, at any kind of value that you might think, 314 00:14:37,236 --> 00:14:39,396 Speaker 5: you know is a good thing for humans to have. 315 00:14:39,836 --> 00:14:41,636 Speaker 5: But the key is that they've recognized that we have 316 00:14:41,796 --> 00:14:43,956 Speaker 5: these things in kind of different amounts. You know, some 317 00:14:43,996 --> 00:14:46,436 Speaker 5: of us really resonate with an approach where we want 318 00:14:46,436 --> 00:14:48,916 Speaker 5: to be brave all the time. Maybe that's our signature strength. 319 00:14:49,236 --> 00:14:51,396 Speaker 5: Others of us like care about humor or sort of 320 00:14:51,436 --> 00:14:54,476 Speaker 5: social connection. Right, we each have these different strengths, and 321 00:14:54,516 --> 00:14:57,556 Speaker 5: Amy's work shows that if you bring those strengths to 322 00:14:57,716 --> 00:15:00,756 Speaker 5: your job, whatever your job description, you wind up not 323 00:15:00,796 --> 00:15:03,716 Speaker 5: even not just being happier at work, but you wind 324 00:15:03,796 --> 00:15:05,956 Speaker 5: up thinking of your job as more of a calling. 325 00:15:06,276 --> 00:15:09,316 Speaker 5: Your supervisors will also say you work better. And I 326 00:15:09,316 --> 00:15:11,876 Speaker 5: love Amy's work because she actually studied job crafting in 327 00:15:11,996 --> 00:15:15,196 Speaker 5: hospital janitorial staff workers. Right. You know these are people 328 00:15:15,236 --> 00:15:18,116 Speaker 5: who are cleaning the linens on hospital beds, or you know, 329 00:15:18,156 --> 00:15:20,956 Speaker 5: cleaning up bedpans when people get sick. Right, This is 330 00:15:20,956 --> 00:15:22,076 Speaker 5: not the kind of job where you have a lot 331 00:15:22,116 --> 00:15:24,156 Speaker 5: of flexibility. You kind of just do what your manager 332 00:15:24,196 --> 00:15:27,396 Speaker 5: tells you. But even in this very kind of constrained 333 00:15:27,516 --> 00:15:30,556 Speaker 5: job description, Amy finds at around a third of these 334 00:15:30,636 --> 00:15:34,396 Speaker 5: janitorial staff workers wind up job crafting. They wind up 335 00:15:34,436 --> 00:15:37,076 Speaker 5: building in some of their strengths. And Amy tells these 336 00:15:37,116 --> 00:15:39,716 Speaker 5: really beautiful stories in her work. She talks about one 337 00:15:40,116 --> 00:15:44,196 Speaker 5: staff member who worked in a chemotherapy ward, which unfortunately 338 00:15:44,196 --> 00:15:46,156 Speaker 5: meant that he was dealing with lots of patients who 339 00:15:46,196 --> 00:15:48,836 Speaker 5: were very sick all the time, because chemotherapy tends to 340 00:15:48,836 --> 00:15:51,636 Speaker 5: make people very nauseous. But he said his job wasn't 341 00:15:51,636 --> 00:15:53,556 Speaker 5: cleaning up vomit, even though that's what he spent a 342 00:15:53,596 --> 00:15:55,916 Speaker 5: lot of his days doing. He said his job was 343 00:15:55,956 --> 00:15:58,596 Speaker 5: social connection and humor. He wanted to connect with the 344 00:15:58,596 --> 00:16:00,956 Speaker 5: patients and make them laugh. And he had this standard 345 00:16:01,036 --> 00:16:02,756 Speaker 5: kind of shtick that he did where he joked about, like, 346 00:16:02,756 --> 00:16:04,996 Speaker 5: oh my god, you've vomited again. Now I'm getting over time, 347 00:16:05,116 --> 00:16:06,956 Speaker 5: Like we'll do a little you know, handshake behind the 348 00:16:06,996 --> 00:16:08,916 Speaker 5: back to keep this going. And he would say, you know, 349 00:16:08,956 --> 00:16:11,516 Speaker 5: the patient would laugh and I would laugh. And that's 350 00:16:11,596 --> 00:16:13,636 Speaker 5: my job. That's why I show up to work, right. 351 00:16:14,076 --> 00:16:17,556 Speaker 5: And another example that Amy talks about is a staff 352 00:16:17,556 --> 00:16:20,516 Speaker 5: worker who worked in a coma ward. So this staff 353 00:16:20,556 --> 00:16:23,396 Speaker 5: member couldn't interact with the patients, but every day she 354 00:16:23,516 --> 00:16:25,876 Speaker 5: kind of just like moved the paintings and the plants 355 00:16:25,876 --> 00:16:28,156 Speaker 5: in the hospital room around, sort of thinking that that 356 00:16:28,236 --> 00:16:32,036 Speaker 5: kind of creative infusion maybe would help patients recover. Who knows, 357 00:16:32,076 --> 00:16:34,116 Speaker 5: but it meant something to her that she was able 358 00:16:34,116 --> 00:16:36,316 Speaker 5: to do it right. I mean, I think the key 359 00:16:36,356 --> 00:16:39,276 Speaker 5: is clear here, like no manager told these employees to 360 00:16:39,316 --> 00:16:41,836 Speaker 5: be doing this stuff. It was just their own way 361 00:16:41,916 --> 00:16:44,676 Speaker 5: of making their job more palatable to the things that 362 00:16:44,716 --> 00:16:47,276 Speaker 5: they cared about. And the reason I love Amy's work 363 00:16:47,316 --> 00:16:50,036 Speaker 5: is I think if hospital janitorial staff members can do that, 364 00:16:50,316 --> 00:16:52,396 Speaker 5: then pretty much all of us in our jobs can 365 00:16:52,436 --> 00:16:52,916 Speaker 5: do that too. 366 00:16:53,716 --> 00:16:53,956 Speaker 3: Yes. 367 00:16:54,076 --> 00:16:57,476 Speaker 4: No, this one is really intuitive to me. And I'm 368 00:16:57,476 --> 00:17:00,556 Speaker 4: someone who's left a lot of jobs, but when I've stayed, 369 00:17:01,876 --> 00:17:05,796 Speaker 4: I've used this agency to make that alignment as tight 370 00:17:05,836 --> 00:17:09,796 Speaker 4: as possible for sure. All Right. The secondful tip that 371 00:17:09,836 --> 00:17:13,676 Speaker 4: really struck us that was about the power of human 372 00:17:13,756 --> 00:17:17,596 Speaker 4: connection and feeling like you really belong in the workplace. 373 00:17:18,436 --> 00:17:21,476 Speaker 4: We often talk about this as the responsibility of the 374 00:17:21,556 --> 00:17:23,876 Speaker 4: employer or the leader in the room to create the 375 00:17:23,916 --> 00:17:27,196 Speaker 4: context for other people's belongings. What can I do as 376 00:17:27,196 --> 00:17:31,036 Speaker 4: an individual employee to increase my sense of belonging? 377 00:17:32,156 --> 00:17:33,996 Speaker 5: Yeah, well, one of the big ones is just to 378 00:17:34,476 --> 00:17:37,996 Speaker 5: actively and intentionally try to connect with other people. This 379 00:17:38,156 --> 00:17:40,036 Speaker 5: is I think something that we like a lot of 380 00:17:40,036 --> 00:17:42,916 Speaker 5: people reject. I see this a lot in really younger workers. 381 00:17:42,916 --> 00:17:45,116 Speaker 5: You know, my college students have made claims like, you know, 382 00:17:45,196 --> 00:17:46,996 Speaker 5: you don't go to work, to make friends, or you know, 383 00:17:47,036 --> 00:17:48,916 Speaker 5: just get in and out of there, right. I think, 384 00:17:49,036 --> 00:17:51,276 Speaker 5: especially in the remote work culture in which a lot 385 00:17:51,276 --> 00:17:53,556 Speaker 5: of young people have found themselves, you know, during their 386 00:17:53,596 --> 00:17:55,196 Speaker 5: start of work. This is the kind of thing that 387 00:17:55,236 --> 00:17:58,196 Speaker 5: we see comes up a lot. But the evidence suggests 388 00:17:58,316 --> 00:18:00,836 Speaker 5: just the opposite, Right, you perform better if you feel 389 00:18:00,836 --> 00:18:03,516 Speaker 5: connected at work. One of the main things that predicts 390 00:18:03,556 --> 00:18:06,196 Speaker 5: happiness at work is a sense of belonging, And one 391 00:18:06,196 --> 00:18:08,156 Speaker 5: of the main things that predicts a sense of belonging 392 00:18:08,196 --> 00:18:10,716 Speaker 5: at work is saying as to the question do you 393 00:18:10,796 --> 00:18:13,516 Speaker 5: have a best friend at work? In fact, you know, 394 00:18:13,596 --> 00:18:15,396 Speaker 5: some folks have made the claim that we could make 395 00:18:15,476 --> 00:18:18,036 Speaker 5: everyone in the workplace much happier if each of them 396 00:18:18,036 --> 00:18:20,596 Speaker 5: could get somebody at work that they thought cared about 397 00:18:20,636 --> 00:18:22,956 Speaker 5: them and felt like a really close friend. But then 398 00:18:22,996 --> 00:18:24,756 Speaker 5: the key is that you have to make friends at work, 399 00:18:25,076 --> 00:18:27,076 Speaker 5: and work by Nick Epley has shown that one of 400 00:18:27,076 --> 00:18:29,516 Speaker 5: these biases is we assume that we have to stay 401 00:18:29,796 --> 00:18:32,396 Speaker 5: on very surface topics, right. You know, we talk about 402 00:18:32,436 --> 00:18:34,676 Speaker 5: the weather or you know, what happened at the Olympics 403 00:18:34,716 --> 00:18:37,396 Speaker 5: and so on, but we don't go into the more 404 00:18:37,476 --> 00:18:40,276 Speaker 5: personal kinds of things. How we're really feeling about work, 405 00:18:40,316 --> 00:18:42,476 Speaker 5: you know, the things we really value, the hobbies and 406 00:18:42,516 --> 00:18:45,676 Speaker 5: the people we care about. But research suggests that if 407 00:18:45,676 --> 00:18:47,716 Speaker 5: you do that, if you dive into a little bit 408 00:18:47,756 --> 00:18:50,436 Speaker 5: more of a deep conversation, it winds up making you 409 00:18:50,516 --> 00:18:53,916 Speaker 5: feel closer. Another thing you can do to increase closeness 410 00:18:53,956 --> 00:18:56,316 Speaker 5: is just to ask for help. This is again something 411 00:18:56,316 --> 00:18:58,276 Speaker 5: that we hate to do generally, but really I fear 412 00:18:58,356 --> 00:19:00,756 Speaker 5: doing in the workplace. We feel like it'll make us 413 00:19:00,796 --> 00:19:03,316 Speaker 5: look kind of needy or not able to do our jobs. 414 00:19:03,636 --> 00:19:06,236 Speaker 5: But overall, when you ask a coworker for help, usually 415 00:19:06,316 --> 00:19:08,956 Speaker 5: it gives them the chance to do something nice for you, 416 00:19:09,196 --> 00:19:12,596 Speaker 5: makes them feel needed, it increases their positive emotion, and 417 00:19:12,636 --> 00:19:15,276 Speaker 5: that winds up making you feel more connected. And so 418 00:19:15,316 --> 00:19:16,796 Speaker 5: those are just the kind of quick things we need 419 00:19:16,836 --> 00:19:19,596 Speaker 5: to get more intentional about creating these friendships. And we 420 00:19:19,676 --> 00:19:21,836 Speaker 5: do that from being a little bit more vulnerable and 421 00:19:21,916 --> 00:19:23,556 Speaker 5: even asking for help when we need it. 422 00:19:23,956 --> 00:19:27,596 Speaker 4: And the way you're just finding vulnerable is not, you know, 423 00:19:28,076 --> 00:19:32,236 Speaker 4: open the kimono and expose all of your deepest, darkest thoughts. 424 00:19:32,276 --> 00:19:35,516 Speaker 4: It's really just showing up as a as an imperfect 425 00:19:35,676 --> 00:19:39,156 Speaker 4: human being in the workplace and connecting with other people 426 00:19:39,196 --> 00:19:39,876 Speaker 4: on that level. 427 00:19:40,516 --> 00:19:44,396 Speaker 5: Yeah, there's this there's this lovely effect that social psychologists 428 00:19:44,396 --> 00:19:46,796 Speaker 5: have talked about, which they call the beautiful mess effect, 429 00:19:47,156 --> 00:19:48,876 Speaker 5: which is this idea that when we think, when we 430 00:19:48,916 --> 00:19:51,916 Speaker 5: seem a little messy or we kind of show our vulnerabilities, 431 00:19:51,956 --> 00:19:54,996 Speaker 5: that people won't like us. But it's actually just the opposite, 432 00:19:55,116 --> 00:19:57,196 Speaker 5: Like you don't want to get like, you know, extreme messy. 433 00:19:57,276 --> 00:19:59,556 Speaker 5: But the idea is like showing that you occasionally need 434 00:19:59,636 --> 00:20:01,996 Speaker 5: help and kind of being really grateful for that help 435 00:20:02,236 --> 00:20:04,596 Speaker 5: winds up making you feel more connected to people, not 436 00:20:04,716 --> 00:20:05,596 Speaker 5: less so. 437 00:20:05,716 --> 00:20:08,316 Speaker 3: As a as someone who has been who has had 438 00:20:08,356 --> 00:20:13,156 Speaker 3: responsibility for recruiting at a business school, and we at 439 00:20:13,196 --> 00:20:17,196 Speaker 3: Harvard have struggled to recruit senior women, so women that 440 00:20:17,236 --> 00:20:21,356 Speaker 3: are already full professors, to recruit them over an idea 441 00:20:21,916 --> 00:20:26,236 Speaker 3: I have had is recruit them and their friends. Does 442 00:20:26,276 --> 00:20:28,516 Speaker 3: that fit into this? Do you have your best friend 443 00:20:28,556 --> 00:20:28,996 Speaker 3: at work? 444 00:20:29,076 --> 00:20:29,156 Speaker 5: Like? 445 00:20:29,276 --> 00:20:33,836 Speaker 3: Are you giving me cover for experimenting with this idea? 446 00:20:34,156 --> 00:20:35,036 Speaker 2: Yeah? 447 00:20:35,116 --> 00:20:37,996 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean I think that's a really smart strategy. 448 00:20:38,076 --> 00:20:38,236 Speaker 6: Right. 449 00:20:38,276 --> 00:20:41,116 Speaker 5: You know, some universities and business schools think in terms 450 00:20:41,156 --> 00:20:43,996 Speaker 5: of what they call cohort hires, right where it's like 451 00:20:44,316 --> 00:20:47,276 Speaker 5: I'll hire somebody that does something really in one field, 452 00:20:47,356 --> 00:20:49,276 Speaker 5: and then pick a second person who's in a really 453 00:20:49,276 --> 00:20:51,276 Speaker 5: similar field to them, right, and so we can kind 454 00:20:51,276 --> 00:20:53,716 Speaker 5: of build up a particular area. But I love the 455 00:20:53,756 --> 00:20:56,996 Speaker 5: idea of hiring people's friends because you're instantly bringing in 456 00:20:57,036 --> 00:21:00,156 Speaker 5: a team that has a sense of belonging, right that 457 00:21:00,236 --> 00:21:02,716 Speaker 5: maybe even are going to model the kinds of friendships 458 00:21:02,716 --> 00:21:06,276 Speaker 5: that other colleagues would benefit from having too. So I'm 459 00:21:06,276 --> 00:21:09,076 Speaker 5: into it. Drop the spousal hire and go for the best, 460 00:21:09,276 --> 00:21:10,716 Speaker 5: the bff hire. It's great. 461 00:21:11,356 --> 00:21:15,996 Speaker 4: I love it. It's radical. It's so simple, but it's radical. 462 00:21:16,036 --> 00:21:16,516 Speaker 2: I love it. 463 00:21:16,796 --> 00:21:18,996 Speaker 4: Well, this is a really nice pivot to looking at 464 00:21:18,996 --> 00:21:23,596 Speaker 4: the employer lens on happiness here. So make the business case, 465 00:21:24,276 --> 00:21:26,356 Speaker 4: why is it worth it as a company, as a 466 00:21:26,436 --> 00:21:29,956 Speaker 4: leader to invest in the happiness of my people? Yeah? 467 00:21:29,996 --> 00:21:32,956 Speaker 5: Well, we talked already about how as an individual you 468 00:21:32,996 --> 00:21:35,116 Speaker 5: would want to be happier if you want to perform 469 00:21:35,116 --> 00:21:38,356 Speaker 5: better on your job. I think for employers the logic 470 00:21:38,476 --> 00:21:41,116 Speaker 5: is very similar. If you want all your workers to 471 00:21:41,156 --> 00:21:44,596 Speaker 5: be doing the best job that they can, to increase retention, 472 00:21:45,076 --> 00:21:47,316 Speaker 5: to have everyone think of their job as a calling 473 00:21:47,436 --> 00:21:49,596 Speaker 5: so they can't wait to get to work on Monday morning. 474 00:21:49,916 --> 00:21:51,996 Speaker 5: The way to do that is to make them happier 475 00:21:52,036 --> 00:21:54,676 Speaker 5: at work. But there's a recent study that I love 476 00:21:54,716 --> 00:21:58,076 Speaker 5: that paints an even more compelling business case for making 477 00:21:58,116 --> 00:22:00,876 Speaker 5: your employees happier at work. It was a study that 478 00:22:00,956 --> 00:22:03,356 Speaker 5: was done in collaboration with a group of researchers at 479 00:22:03,356 --> 00:22:07,596 Speaker 5: Oxford led by Jan Emmanuel Denev and the job website Indeed. 480 00:22:07,956 --> 00:22:10,436 Speaker 5: And so if listeners don't know the job website, indeed, 481 00:22:10,476 --> 00:22:11,836 Speaker 5: this is a place where you can go to look 482 00:22:11,876 --> 00:22:14,676 Speaker 5: for jobs, but also to rate things about your current job. 483 00:22:14,756 --> 00:22:16,636 Speaker 5: Right you know, how much salary you get, and how 484 00:22:16,636 --> 00:22:18,996 Speaker 5: happy you're at work, your sense of belonging and so on. 485 00:22:19,516 --> 00:22:22,716 Speaker 5: And so indeed was sitting on like about fifteen million 486 00:22:22,796 --> 00:22:26,716 Speaker 5: data points about how happy individual workers were at work. 487 00:22:26,996 --> 00:22:29,836 Speaker 5: So they had ratings for over five thousand different companies 488 00:22:29,876 --> 00:22:33,076 Speaker 5: of on average, how happy are their employers based on 489 00:22:33,116 --> 00:22:35,876 Speaker 5: these indeed data. And so what the Oxford researchers did 490 00:22:35,956 --> 00:22:37,796 Speaker 5: was they said, well, let's just make this sort of 491 00:22:37,836 --> 00:22:40,196 Speaker 5: well being composite score. So this is kind of the 492 00:22:40,236 --> 00:22:43,356 Speaker 5: on average how happy you do your workers rate being 493 00:22:43,476 --> 00:22:45,676 Speaker 5: based on these indeed data, and they could make one 494 00:22:45,676 --> 00:22:48,356 Speaker 5: of these scores for each individual company, and they could 495 00:22:48,396 --> 00:22:51,276 Speaker 5: ask all these things about what a higher happiness at 496 00:22:51,276 --> 00:22:54,556 Speaker 5: work score predicted. And in particular, they were interested in, 497 00:22:54,636 --> 00:22:57,436 Speaker 5: you know, the usual metric that business school professors think about, 498 00:22:57,476 --> 00:23:01,196 Speaker 5: which is, you know, shareholder value, like how how well 499 00:23:01,196 --> 00:23:04,396 Speaker 5: are different stocks doing of different companies. And what they 500 00:23:04,396 --> 00:23:07,356 Speaker 5: did was just to plot a correlation between the happier 501 00:23:07,396 --> 00:23:10,796 Speaker 5: companies and look at what is happening with stock prices. 502 00:23:10,876 --> 00:23:13,596 Speaker 5: And what they found was a strong and significant correlation 503 00:23:13,796 --> 00:23:18,276 Speaker 5: showing that the happier companies wound up having better stock prices. 504 00:23:19,556 --> 00:23:22,116 Speaker 5: They actually took this one step further and said, well, 505 00:23:22,196 --> 00:23:24,396 Speaker 5: you know, we have these usual metrics of you know, 506 00:23:24,476 --> 00:23:27,476 Speaker 5: economic success based on successful companies. We have you know, 507 00:23:27,516 --> 00:23:30,996 Speaker 5: the Dow Jones or the SMP five hundred. What if 508 00:23:31,036 --> 00:23:33,796 Speaker 5: we make the well being score one hundred, So these 509 00:23:33,836 --> 00:23:36,556 Speaker 5: are the one hundred companies, and this indeed data set 510 00:23:36,756 --> 00:23:39,796 Speaker 5: that had the highest happiness ratings. And the researcher said, well, 511 00:23:39,796 --> 00:23:41,876 Speaker 5: why don't we kind of plot that against the other 512 00:23:41,996 --> 00:23:45,436 Speaker 5: standard metrics, So use this well being score metric to 513 00:23:45,476 --> 00:23:48,036 Speaker 5: compete against the SMP five hundred and the Nasdaq and 514 00:23:48,076 --> 00:23:50,956 Speaker 5: so on. And they have this lovely graph in their 515 00:23:50,996 --> 00:23:54,516 Speaker 5: paper which shows that this well being one hundred set 516 00:23:54,556 --> 00:23:57,996 Speaker 5: of companies winds up beating the SMP and the Nasdaq 517 00:23:58,156 --> 00:24:00,996 Speaker 5: and the Dow Jones at pretty much every point in 518 00:24:01,076 --> 00:24:04,036 Speaker 5: the economic cycle of the last couple of years. What 519 00:24:04,076 --> 00:24:06,596 Speaker 5: does that mean? This is a very compelling case for 520 00:24:06,716 --> 00:24:09,916 Speaker 5: every CEO to take seriously that one thing that might 521 00:24:09,996 --> 00:24:12,676 Speaker 5: really matter for the success of your company in terms of, like, 522 00:24:12,716 --> 00:24:15,196 Speaker 5: again the basic metric of success of your company, what 523 00:24:15,316 --> 00:24:17,996 Speaker 5: you tell shareholders they're going to get, you know, in 524 00:24:18,076 --> 00:24:20,876 Speaker 5: terms of actual money over time, that you'll do better 525 00:24:20,916 --> 00:24:24,356 Speaker 5: and that very important metric simply by making your workers happier. 526 00:24:24,916 --> 00:24:26,796 Speaker 5: And and what I love about the studies, like it 527 00:24:26,836 --> 00:24:28,676 Speaker 5: didn't need to go that way, Like it could have 528 00:24:28,716 --> 00:24:31,756 Speaker 5: been a really compelling ethical case for making your workers happy. 529 00:24:31,836 --> 00:24:33,636 Speaker 5: But maybe you know you have to take a little 530 00:24:33,636 --> 00:24:36,116 Speaker 5: bit of hit in terms of the money you pull back. No, 531 00:24:36,156 --> 00:24:38,996 Speaker 5: it's it's really a work life harmony that if we 532 00:24:39,116 --> 00:24:42,756 Speaker 5: make our workers happier, we wind up reaping the benefits 533 00:24:42,756 --> 00:24:44,756 Speaker 5: in terms of a more successful company. 534 00:24:44,916 --> 00:24:47,876 Speaker 2: Okay, so say I'm the boss, I'm listening to this conversation. 535 00:24:48,396 --> 00:24:52,036 Speaker 2: I buy it. Where would you coach me to begin. 536 00:24:52,956 --> 00:24:56,196 Speaker 5: Yeah, Well, the Indeed Data had a really interesting idea 537 00:24:56,236 --> 00:24:59,436 Speaker 5: on this because they also asked the question what is 538 00:24:59,476 --> 00:25:02,716 Speaker 5: that happiness at work metric made of? In other words, 539 00:25:02,716 --> 00:25:04,916 Speaker 5: what are the factors that lead people to be happier 540 00:25:04,916 --> 00:25:06,836 Speaker 5: at work? Because as an employer, that's what you'd want 541 00:25:06,876 --> 00:25:08,956 Speaker 5: to intervene on. If it's higher salary, it makes people 542 00:25:08,956 --> 00:25:10,676 Speaker 5: have at work, you'd want to pay people more and 543 00:25:10,716 --> 00:25:13,956 Speaker 5: so on. And what the researchers found was kind of surprising. 544 00:25:14,116 --> 00:25:17,476 Speaker 5: The top thing on the list was worker's sense of 545 00:25:17,516 --> 00:25:21,436 Speaker 5: belonging at work, which was made up of three different metrics. 546 00:25:21,516 --> 00:25:23,596 Speaker 5: One that I've mentioned already, do you have a best 547 00:25:23,596 --> 00:25:26,356 Speaker 5: friend at work? And the second two was the things 548 00:25:26,356 --> 00:25:28,556 Speaker 5: that I do at the company matters, So you think 549 00:25:28,556 --> 00:25:30,636 Speaker 5: the things that you're doing matter at work, people care 550 00:25:30,676 --> 00:25:33,756 Speaker 5: about what you do. And also I matter to the 551 00:25:33,796 --> 00:25:36,596 Speaker 5: people at work, So this is kind of reciprocal mattering. Plus 552 00:25:36,676 --> 00:25:40,196 Speaker 5: your friendship at work, those three things together seem to 553 00:25:40,196 --> 00:25:42,876 Speaker 5: be the biggest predictor of what makes people happy at work, 554 00:25:42,916 --> 00:25:45,396 Speaker 5: and the biggest predictor then, of course, of like what's 555 00:25:45,436 --> 00:25:47,916 Speaker 5: going to make your company the most money. And so 556 00:25:48,276 --> 00:25:51,196 Speaker 5: if you're a C suite, you know exac Looking at 557 00:25:51,196 --> 00:25:53,676 Speaker 5: these data, what you have to ask yourself is what 558 00:25:53,716 --> 00:25:56,436 Speaker 5: does my belonging at work look like? Do people feel 559 00:25:56,476 --> 00:25:58,356 Speaker 5: a sense of meaning that they matter and that what 560 00:25:58,356 --> 00:26:01,756 Speaker 5: they're doing matters? And have I promoted situations that can 561 00:26:01,836 --> 00:26:05,316 Speaker 5: increase friendship at work? Especially if you kind of moved 562 00:26:05,316 --> 00:26:07,756 Speaker 5: to a more remote environment, these things become all the 563 00:26:07,796 --> 00:26:10,916 Speaker 5: more important that that sense of belonging is really something 564 00:26:10,916 --> 00:26:14,156 Speaker 5: that you're working on. And so that's the data pretty clear, 565 00:26:14,236 --> 00:26:16,676 Speaker 5: that's the spot to intervene to get the biggest kind 566 00:26:16,676 --> 00:26:19,356 Speaker 5: of happiness boost to everyone in your organization. 567 00:26:19,956 --> 00:26:24,556 Speaker 3: What's really exciting about particularly two and three the reciprocity 568 00:26:24,596 --> 00:26:28,156 Speaker 3: of mattering. It feels, at least in my first thinking 569 00:26:28,156 --> 00:26:32,516 Speaker 3: of it, very inexpensive. It's like intentional but not costly. 570 00:26:33,116 --> 00:26:34,756 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, I think that's the thing is you 571 00:26:35,076 --> 00:26:37,556 Speaker 5: assume like I have to pay all this money extra 572 00:26:37,636 --> 00:26:40,796 Speaker 5: money to increase people's salaries or get bonuses. All these 573 00:26:40,796 --> 00:26:44,436 Speaker 5: solutions are hard and they require work and intent, but 574 00:26:44,476 --> 00:26:47,156 Speaker 5: they're cheap, right, They're exactly the kinds of things you 575 00:26:47,156 --> 00:26:50,596 Speaker 5: can build in even during tough times. We've just finished 576 00:26:50,596 --> 00:26:55,076 Speaker 5: an interview for the Happiness Lab with CEO Bob Chapman. 577 00:26:55,476 --> 00:26:59,116 Speaker 5: He's the CEO of this manufacturing company called Barry Wymiller. 578 00:26:59,916 --> 00:27:02,636 Speaker 5: You know, they build kind of capital equipment for places 579 00:27:02,636 --> 00:27:05,396 Speaker 5: like Coca Cola and Procter and Gamble. It's like, you know, 580 00:27:05,476 --> 00:27:07,956 Speaker 5: the standard kind of company where you wouldn't think building 581 00:27:07,996 --> 00:27:10,836 Speaker 5: in belonging is going to matter to this kind of organization. 582 00:27:11,756 --> 00:27:13,876 Speaker 5: But they had a moment where they really had to 583 00:27:13,876 --> 00:27:17,596 Speaker 5: think about people's mattering at work. That came during the 584 00:27:17,596 --> 00:27:20,676 Speaker 5: two thousand and eight economic downturn when they lost nearly 585 00:27:20,716 --> 00:27:22,996 Speaker 5: all of their contracts and they were facing you know 586 00:27:23,036 --> 00:27:25,596 Speaker 5: what many businesses were facing back then, which is the 587 00:27:25,636 --> 00:27:29,156 Speaker 5: possibility of laying off a bunch of people. And Bob 588 00:27:29,236 --> 00:27:31,836 Speaker 5: had this idea that, you know, if mattering at work 589 00:27:31,916 --> 00:27:34,756 Speaker 5: is really important, I'm going to kick out, you know, 590 00:27:35,036 --> 00:27:37,116 Speaker 5: thirty percent of my company. I'm going to leave the 591 00:27:37,156 --> 00:27:40,156 Speaker 5: other seventy percent there thinking that that could have been them, 592 00:27:40,276 --> 00:27:42,076 Speaker 5: and like what are they going to be next? And 593 00:27:42,116 --> 00:27:44,356 Speaker 5: so on, and he said, is there any other solution? 594 00:27:44,516 --> 00:27:47,356 Speaker 5: And the solution he came up with was to say 595 00:27:47,436 --> 00:27:50,676 Speaker 5: that everyone in the entire company, including you know, the 596 00:27:50,716 --> 00:27:52,956 Speaker 5: C suite, you know, down to the like the lowest 597 00:27:53,036 --> 00:27:56,156 Speaker 5: level worker, they all had to take a month without pay. 598 00:27:56,516 --> 00:27:58,116 Speaker 5: They were all going to take a little bit of 599 00:27:58,116 --> 00:28:00,476 Speaker 5: a sacrifice so that the company could get through it. 600 00:28:00,996 --> 00:28:07,036 Speaker 5: And everyone responded incredibly positively, like people were thrilled. You know, 601 00:28:07,076 --> 00:28:08,796 Speaker 5: they were so scared that they were going to lose 602 00:28:08,796 --> 00:28:12,756 Speaker 5: their and now they saw everyone pitching in together to 603 00:28:12,836 --> 00:28:14,916 Speaker 5: kind of take the hit, including the people at the 604 00:28:14,996 --> 00:28:18,116 Speaker 5: highest levels. And Bob said that an even more interesting 605 00:28:18,156 --> 00:28:20,676 Speaker 5: thing happened, which is that people so felt the sense 606 00:28:20,716 --> 00:28:23,196 Speaker 5: of meaning and belonging that a lot of them stepped 607 00:28:23,236 --> 00:28:25,516 Speaker 5: up to take an extra month so that other team 608 00:28:25,556 --> 00:28:28,036 Speaker 5: members wouldn't have to take theirs. You saw folks who 609 00:28:28,036 --> 00:28:30,236 Speaker 5: were saying, you know, hey, I'm close to retirement already, 610 00:28:30,316 --> 00:28:32,716 Speaker 5: let me take two months so that you know, young 611 00:28:32,796 --> 00:28:35,236 Speaker 5: Mary or Bob who just you know, had a baby 612 00:28:35,356 --> 00:28:37,396 Speaker 5: or just bought a house, they wouldn't have to take 613 00:28:37,436 --> 00:28:40,236 Speaker 5: that like little, you know, short period of time off. 614 00:28:40,596 --> 00:28:40,796 Speaker 4: Right. 615 00:28:41,316 --> 00:28:44,276 Speaker 5: This is that sense of mattering in action, right, And 616 00:28:44,356 --> 00:28:46,916 Speaker 5: if the C suite winds up creating a culture where 617 00:28:46,916 --> 00:28:50,236 Speaker 5: that is important, where they really embody that importance to 618 00:28:50,316 --> 00:28:53,436 Speaker 5: their organization, what you find is that people step up. 619 00:28:53,636 --> 00:28:56,116 Speaker 5: They not only matter, but they realize that their actions 620 00:28:56,116 --> 00:28:59,076 Speaker 5: can help the company, and they're excited to do those 621 00:28:59,116 --> 00:29:01,676 Speaker 5: even more often. And you know, the end result of 622 00:29:01,716 --> 00:29:03,716 Speaker 5: the story is that Barry wey Miller, you know, not 623 00:29:03,756 --> 00:29:06,516 Speaker 5: only survived the economic downturn, but has gone on to 624 00:29:06,556 --> 00:29:09,636 Speaker 5: become a kind of juggernaut of the manufacturing industry, pulling in, 625 00:29:09,716 --> 00:29:12,116 Speaker 5: you know, three billion dollars in annual sales a year 626 00:29:12,676 --> 00:29:15,116 Speaker 5: in part because they created this sort of culture of 627 00:29:15,156 --> 00:29:16,076 Speaker 5: belonging and care. 628 00:29:16,476 --> 00:29:18,476 Speaker 2: Beautiful. What a powerful example. 629 00:29:18,796 --> 00:29:22,756 Speaker 4: I heard a conversation, an interview with you years ago 630 00:29:23,076 --> 00:29:26,036 Speaker 4: that inspired me to make a happy list that I 631 00:29:26,116 --> 00:29:29,796 Speaker 4: put on my phone, which I revisit on a regular basis. Francis, 632 00:29:29,836 --> 00:29:32,756 Speaker 4: you'll be delighted to note that you make a number 633 00:29:32,756 --> 00:29:34,716 Speaker 4: of appearances on the happy list. 634 00:29:34,996 --> 00:29:37,876 Speaker 2: Delighted and relieved and relieved and relieved. 635 00:29:39,036 --> 00:29:41,636 Speaker 4: Do you have your own happiness list, Lorie, and can 636 00:29:41,676 --> 00:29:44,036 Speaker 4: you give us a couple entries on it? 637 00:29:44,876 --> 00:29:45,116 Speaker 2: Yeah? 638 00:29:45,156 --> 00:29:47,556 Speaker 5: I mean I do keep a list of delights. They're 639 00:29:47,556 --> 00:29:49,676 Speaker 5: different ways to do the happiness list. It's like stuff 640 00:29:49,676 --> 00:29:52,956 Speaker 5: that makes you happy, things you're grateful for. Lately, I've 641 00:29:52,996 --> 00:29:55,516 Speaker 5: been into delights, which are just things that you notice 642 00:29:55,516 --> 00:29:57,356 Speaker 5: in the world that almost make you like, you know, 643 00:29:57,436 --> 00:29:58,876 Speaker 5: put your hands up in the air and say, oh 644 00:29:58,916 --> 00:30:02,556 Speaker 5: my gosh, what a delight, And they're really silly things. 645 00:30:02,636 --> 00:30:04,876 Speaker 5: Like the other day, I was walking down the street 646 00:30:04,916 --> 00:30:08,156 Speaker 5: and there was just somebody who's like just jamming out 647 00:30:08,196 --> 00:30:10,276 Speaker 5: to some really old cool eighties rock, you know, in 648 00:30:10,316 --> 00:30:12,356 Speaker 5: his car, thinking he was alone, but you get to 649 00:30:12,356 --> 00:30:14,716 Speaker 5: see the like headbanging, and I was like, you know, 650 00:30:14,956 --> 00:30:18,356 Speaker 5: that is just such a delight. And and honestly, you know, 651 00:30:18,556 --> 00:30:20,716 Speaker 5: the other thing on my list is just I get 652 00:30:20,756 --> 00:30:23,716 Speaker 5: to with this podcast just talk to so many interesting folks, 653 00:30:23,716 --> 00:30:26,156 Speaker 5: interesting folks like you all my amazing guests, from Bob 654 00:30:26,236 --> 00:30:29,476 Speaker 5: Chapman to others. And that's just a delight that I 655 00:30:29,516 --> 00:30:31,996 Speaker 5: have this role where I get to hear people's incredible 656 00:30:32,036 --> 00:30:35,236 Speaker 5: stories and share them with others. And so the delight 657 00:30:35,316 --> 00:30:37,796 Speaker 5: List includes the things from the from the tiny to 658 00:30:37,916 --> 00:30:41,036 Speaker 5: the to the big. And my husband Mark is on 659 00:30:41,076 --> 00:30:43,836 Speaker 5: there as well, so he's he's often featured on the 660 00:30:43,876 --> 00:30:44,916 Speaker 5: Delight List too. 661 00:30:45,236 --> 00:30:48,436 Speaker 2: Beautiful. Well, it's been such a privilege to host you 662 00:30:48,476 --> 00:30:52,716 Speaker 2: and have this conversation fans, very big fans and fans, yeah, 663 00:30:52,716 --> 00:30:54,556 Speaker 2: which I was impossible to imagine. 664 00:30:54,636 --> 00:30:55,436 Speaker 5: Thanks so much. 665 00:31:13,036 --> 00:31:16,516 Speaker 2: So, Francis I see your recruiting. 666 00:31:16,596 --> 00:31:21,756 Speaker 4: Gears speaking of your academic job. 667 00:31:23,596 --> 00:31:27,276 Speaker 3: Yes, Laurie is currently at Yale, is what I'd like 668 00:31:27,276 --> 00:31:31,156 Speaker 3: to say to our listeners currently, but let's stay tuned 669 00:31:31,316 --> 00:31:32,036 Speaker 3: for the future. 670 00:31:35,316 --> 00:31:39,476 Speaker 2: So what surprised you during this conversation? What do you 671 00:31:39,516 --> 00:31:41,116 Speaker 2: hope listeners take away from it? 672 00:31:41,916 --> 00:31:45,676 Speaker 3: I feel like so many light bulbs went off on it. 673 00:31:45,716 --> 00:31:48,716 Speaker 3: So what surprised me is how much belonging matters, which 674 00:31:48,756 --> 00:31:51,836 Speaker 3: is something that we think about a lot, But how 675 00:31:51,876 --> 00:31:57,396 Speaker 3: much mattering matters is another one. I mean that's and 676 00:31:57,596 --> 00:32:00,756 Speaker 3: I watch you do this all the time, in really 677 00:32:00,836 --> 00:32:05,876 Speaker 3: like zoning in on helping people come up with the 678 00:32:06,036 --> 00:32:08,276 Speaker 3: essence of what they're doing that's going to matter a lot, 679 00:32:08,316 --> 00:32:10,876 Speaker 3: and you really and good You often give them titles 680 00:32:11,356 --> 00:32:12,996 Speaker 3: to put that structure. 681 00:32:13,116 --> 00:32:17,436 Speaker 4: So stingy about the titles, My God, hand them all out, 682 00:32:18,676 --> 00:32:23,316 Speaker 4: you know. The I am not the academic in this relationship, 683 00:32:23,756 --> 00:32:26,556 Speaker 4: but one of my big takeaways is that is that 684 00:32:26,636 --> 00:32:31,036 Speaker 4: my intuition has a lot of data behind it. And 685 00:32:31,516 --> 00:32:36,236 Speaker 4: all the beautiful researchers that she referenced in that conversation, 686 00:32:36,956 --> 00:32:40,636 Speaker 4: which is I'm so grateful that there are so many 687 00:32:40,676 --> 00:32:44,916 Speaker 4: fantastic people doing the work to kind of back up 688 00:32:44,956 --> 00:32:49,316 Speaker 4: our intuition on not our intuition, capital our intuition on 689 00:32:49,356 --> 00:32:53,236 Speaker 4: this that this, you know, this is such a powerful 690 00:32:54,396 --> 00:33:00,516 Speaker 4: lever for well being, not just inside organizations but society 691 00:33:00,596 --> 00:33:04,796 Speaker 4: writ large. If I may invoke my favorite academic phrase, like, 692 00:33:05,036 --> 00:33:08,716 Speaker 4: this is really the ballgame. I think it's really the ballgame. 693 00:33:08,756 --> 00:33:11,956 Speaker 4: And it's you know, it's like everything we talk about 694 00:33:11,996 --> 00:33:15,476 Speaker 4: inclusion and performance and you know the idea of like 695 00:33:15,596 --> 00:33:20,116 Speaker 4: bringing your humanity into the workplace, and that also jump 696 00:33:20,156 --> 00:33:23,196 Speaker 4: starting impact and performance and all of your other hopes 697 00:33:23,236 --> 00:33:25,996 Speaker 4: and dreams, like all of you know, all of those 698 00:33:25,996 --> 00:33:29,996 Speaker 4: hopes and dreams they run through through happiness, your own 699 00:33:30,036 --> 00:33:32,196 Speaker 4: happiness and the happiness of other people. And to your point, 700 00:33:32,476 --> 00:33:37,236 Speaker 4: those things are intimately connected. So I'm just thrilled that 701 00:33:37,316 --> 00:33:43,316 Speaker 4: we're able to share this conversation with our listeners. All right, 702 00:33:44,356 --> 00:33:48,116 Speaker 4: Fixable listeners, thank you for being part of this conversation. 703 00:33:48,276 --> 00:33:50,436 Speaker 4: As always, reach out to us if there's a problem 704 00:33:50,796 --> 00:33:53,956 Speaker 4: you're struggling with, or if there's someone you want to 705 00:33:53,996 --> 00:33:57,316 Speaker 4: hear from, or you suggest we bring on the show. 706 00:33:57,356 --> 00:33:58,396 Speaker 2: We'd love to hear from you. 707 00:33:58,756 --> 00:34:03,156 Speaker 4: Email us, call us, text us Fixable at ted dot com. 708 00:34:03,276 --> 00:34:06,276 Speaker 4: Or two three four Fixable that's two three four three 709 00:34:06,316 --> 00:34:17,716 Speaker 4: four nine two two five three Fixable is brought to 710 00:34:17,716 --> 00:34:21,476 Speaker 4: you by the Ted Audio Collective and Pushkin Industries. It's 711 00:34:21,516 --> 00:34:23,196 Speaker 4: hosted by me Anne Morris. 712 00:34:22,836 --> 00:34:23,876 Speaker 5: And me Francis Fry. 713 00:34:24,316 --> 00:34:28,836 Speaker 4: Our team includes Izzy Carter Constanza, Guyardo band Ban Chang, 714 00:34:29,076 --> 00:34:33,396 Speaker 4: Alejandra Salazar, and Roxanne high Lash. This episode was mixed 715 00:34:33,396 --> 00:34:34,636 Speaker 4: by Louis AT's story Yard. 716 00:34:34,916 --> 00:34:37,636 Speaker 3: If you're enjoying the show, make sure to subscribe wherever 717 00:34:37,676 --> 00:34:39,916 Speaker 3: you get your podcasts and tell a friend to check 718 00:34:39,996 --> 00:34:40,276 Speaker 3: us out.