Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg business Week Inside from the reporters and
Speaker 1: editors who bring you America's most trusted business magazine, plus
Speaker 1: bloom all business finance and tech news. The Bloomberg Business
Speaker 1: Week Podcast with Carol Masser and Tim stinebec from Bloomberg Radio.
Speaker 1: The Bloomberg Big Take story in the upcoming new issue
Speaker 1: of Bloomberg Business Week add on newstands tomorrow, already online
Speaker 1: at Bloomberg dot com slash business Week. It's also on
Speaker 1: the Bloomberg Terminal. The story Tim taps into how traditional
Speaker 1: economic indicators, well they can't predict the timing of a downturn,
Speaker 1: and then some of the newer forecasting methods they're just
Speaker 1: kind of untested. Yeah, this is why I calling us
Speaker 1: recession is trickier than ever before, especially with all the
Speaker 1: mixed signals that we're getting. It is just not easy.
Speaker 1: We hear over and over again, it's not easy from CFOs,
Speaker 1: it's tough. Here with the story we got Bloomberg News
Speaker 1: US econom reporter Katya Dmitrieva on zoom VI in the
Speaker 1: ninety nine one studio and Bloomberg Bureau in Washington, d C.
Speaker 1: Along with the editor of Business Week Joe Webber, he's
Speaker 1: here in the bloom Berk Interactive Broker's studio. Come on, Joel.
Speaker 1: I thought this was easy. I thought all you had
Speaker 1: to do was be the national view of economic research
Speaker 1: and you just you know, say, look in your crystal ball.
Speaker 1: And I thought that tells you exactly when the recession
Speaker 1: may or may not know. Yeah, and on top of
Speaker 1: that that no pressure for economists here because they've had
Speaker 1: some noteworthy misses. Uh, you know, there's an inflation thing
Speaker 1: and some GDP. Yeah. So so really, what's what's happened
Speaker 1: here is this, Uh, there's been a proliferation of data.
Speaker 1: Everybody's got an opinion now, right, gad you And and
Speaker 1: what is the best we can come up with with
Speaker 1: how to figure out how to call a recession? Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of data, you know, in addition to
Speaker 1: the traditional indicators, you also have all of the new ones.
Speaker 1: You know, everything from the open table restaurant reservations to
Speaker 1: where people are flying and if they're flying, if they're
Speaker 1: coming back into the office, and then even things like
Speaker 1: plastic surgery. Some economists like to look at that as
Speaker 1: a gauge of so of how much people are spending
Speaker 1: on things that are completely discretionary of the time. So
Speaker 1: you have a lot of stuff to look at. Um,
Speaker 1: and unfortunately, you know, unfortunately it's no easier this time
Speaker 1: around with this data than it was, for example, during
Speaker 1: the last recession or pre COVID I should say, twenty nineteen,
Speaker 1: when everyone was thinking, okay, we're due for a recession
Speaker 1: before times the PC pre COVID times. Um, you know,
Speaker 1: I think right now, Uh, there is some indication of stress. Um,
Speaker 1: there is some indication that things are slowing down. But
Speaker 1: the tricky thing is trying to figure out when you're
Speaker 1: piecing together all these different pieces of the economy, Um,
Speaker 1: is the image that you get that we're entering a
Speaker 1: recession or is it simply a renormalization and kind of
Speaker 1: a slowing down to something we might have seen. So
Speaker 1: that's what's proving very difficult for for a lot of it.
Speaker 1: Ponymous right now, I'm so glad we're talking to you
Speaker 1: right now. We we just spoke with Mario Cordero, who
Speaker 1: runs the Port of Long Beach, and he was saying that, um,
Speaker 1: you know, we kind of like tried to hold his
Speaker 1: feet to the fire and get him to say whether
Speaker 1: or not we're in a recession, whether or not he
Speaker 1: sees one coming. I mean, this is the guy who
Speaker 1: can look out his window and see the economic activity.
Speaker 1: You know, how many ships are lined up in the
Speaker 1: economic activity that's taking part. And he wouldn't. He was like,
Speaker 1: I'm on team soft landing, but he wasn't comfortable making
Speaker 1: a call. We said like yes or no, and he
Speaker 1: wouldn't do it. Yeah, he wouldn't do it, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, I mean that's the exact same experience that
Speaker 1: you're going to get with a lot of other economists
Speaker 1: right now. I mean even Claudia Sam you know, she
Speaker 1: created the some rule. Uh, this is sort of when
Speaker 1: you talk about art versus science and economy. This is
Speaker 1: pretty much as science as you can get. You know.
Speaker 1: It's a line on a chart attracts the unemployment rate
Speaker 1: over time compared to the sort of past twelve months
Speaker 1: unemployment rate, and it is very accurate in terms of
Speaker 1: predicting at a certain point. Okay, we've entered a recession.
Speaker 1: And yet even when I was chatting with her, she
Speaker 1: was saying, you know, I hope that it's wrong this
Speaker 1: time around, and there's a chance that it might be wrong.
Speaker 1: This time around, because the consumer outlook is still pretty
Speaker 1: strong and we haven't seen a lot of kind of
Speaker 1: impact negative impact in the labor market yet. Um. And again,
Speaker 1: I mean, we could enter a situation where consumer spending
Speaker 1: managers to hold up. Right. So we saw the retail
Speaker 1: sales figures for the past few months pretty dismal, but
Speaker 1: we're coming off of that high, right, So, um, we
Speaker 1: could enter a situation where companies have a bit more
Speaker 1: room to cut prices now, um, now that the FED
Speaker 1: is kind of done its job and we're seeing inflation
Speaker 1: slow down a bit. Um, And then we could have
Speaker 1: consumers saying, Okay, I'm going to keep spending, maybe not
Speaker 1: like I did two years ago or a year ago,
Speaker 1: but you know, I'm going to keep this economy going.
Speaker 1: Everyone's going to keep doing their part. Uh. So it's
Speaker 1: just still a big question mark words later, you know,
Speaker 1: twenty economists interviews later, and it's still to be do
Speaker 1: my part. Um, So what about the yield curve Because
Speaker 1: that's then as you write a tried and true recession indicator,
Speaker 1: does it still hold as much weight as we've always
Speaker 1: thought or is it sort of slightly maybe less? And
Speaker 1: these other things kind of take into account, like what
Speaker 1: what's the new uh, you know, the new thinking on
Speaker 1: inverted yield curves. Yeah, the yield curve is a funny
Speaker 1: one people people love it and it's a great Um.
Speaker 1: It's a great indicator of what investors are thinking and
Speaker 1: whether they see kind of a recession down the road.
Speaker 1: And it's pretty straightforward. Um when sort of the short
Speaker 1: versus long term the curve inverts, like it's a it's
Speaker 1: a signal. It's one signal of many signals. Um, But
Speaker 1: how does it compare with a drop in sales of
Speaker 1: men's underwear? Yeah? Yeah, I know Alan Green's fans favorite
Speaker 1: or used to be his favorite indicator. Um. You know,
Speaker 1: it's it's more accurate than a lot of other indicators. Thing.
Speaker 1: The thing with the yield curban version, though, is that
Speaker 1: there could be a false positive. So we have in
Speaker 1: the nineteen sixties where the yield curve inverted and we
Speaker 1: didn't have a recession immediately afterwards. And we also had
Speaker 1: the yield curve inverting twice at least twice last year,
Speaker 1: and we're you know, I mean you could talk to
Speaker 1: some economists they'd argue we're already in a recession. But
Speaker 1: we don't see, um, the traditional signs of a recession
Speaker 1: right this very second. So you could maybe even call
Speaker 1: call that a false positive. So with a lot of
Speaker 1: these indicators, like you really have to take them all together,
Speaker 1: so yield curve plus the so rule plus you know,
Speaker 1: for example, the Conference Boards Leading Indicator index, which is
Speaker 1: weakening and flashing rent. And it's gonna wait for a
Speaker 1: year when everybody says, oh, guess what we were in
Speaker 1: It already happened. Hey, listen, how does though there's a
Speaker 1: great sound bite in your in your story are a
Speaker 1: great quote about how this is the most traditional of
Speaker 1: traditional recessions in a couple of decades, right the last
Speaker 1: two we know, right, we had the financial meltdown, the
Speaker 1: housing crisis, that's one, and then you had a pandemic
Speaker 1: that shut down the economy thirty seconds left her. It
Speaker 1: being traditional makes it easier or harder to call. It
Speaker 1: makes it just as hard to call. I mean, we're
Speaker 1: lucky this time and that right now we don't have
Speaker 1: a black Swan event at least not yet fingers crossed
Speaker 1: like we did for the last two, especially the last
Speaker 1: pandemic recession. Um. But it doesn't make it any easier.
Speaker 1: In fact, I would argue it makes it harder because
Speaker 1: you're seeing uh, you know, kind of a slowdown of demand,
Speaker 1: but you're also seeing these mixed signals of like positive
Speaker 1: things happening in the economy. So I would say it's
Speaker 1: it's just as hard as it was before. That was
Speaker 1: Katia Dmitrieva. She's a US economy reporter for Bloomberg News.
Speaker 1: Business Week editor Joel Webber. We'll be back with us
Speaker 1: just a bit later. Really relevant story, right, especially with
Speaker 1: that FED meeting coming this week. It's tricky for the FED.
Speaker 1: It's tricky for calling a US recession and envy those jobs, Caroll, No,
Speaker 1: not at all all right. Well, one of the confounding
Speaker 1: metrics that Katia wrote about was jobs data. Since the start,
Speaker 1: we've seen mass layoffs from the likes of Microsoft, Amazon, Alphabet, Ford,
Speaker 1: also three M, Spotify, and IBM. Just this past week,
Speaker 1: but we had another weekly jobtless claims number that showed
Speaker 1: the labor market still tight. Yeah, government jobs data still
Speaker 1: depicting a rather tight labor market here in the US.
Speaker 1: For a closer look at some key job trends, we
Speaker 1: caught up with Dr Mona Moore, sed she's the founder
Speaker 1: and CEO at Generation. It's an independent nonprofit that was
Speaker 1: founded by mackenzie to help prepare people for the workforce.
Speaker 1: We've got with us this afternoon. Dr Mona Moore set
Speaker 1: founder and CEO at Generation. This is an independent nonprofit.
Speaker 1: It was founded a few years ago by McKenzie to
Speaker 1: help prepare people for jobs. She joins s via zoom
Speaker 1: from Washington, d C. Dr Morshed, good to have you
Speaker 1: with us this afternoon. I want to talk more about
Speaker 1: Generation just a second. But first of all, I want
Speaker 1: to get your thoughts on on what we're seeing in
Speaker 1: terms of layoffs. And I want to look at this
Speaker 1: in the context of, you know, we're still in a
Speaker 1: jobs market that's you know, really really tired. I mean
Speaker 1: unemployment rate it's historically low still absolutely so, there are
Speaker 1: a number of things happening right now. Um. Obviously, we're
Speaker 1: all waking up to headlines every day where there are
Speaker 1: slews of job cuts which are being announced. Um. That
Speaker 1: has a couple of ramifications. Um. First of all, obviously
Speaker 1: it means adversity for those individuals and those families. But
Speaker 1: what we're also saying is that there's a slowdown in
Speaker 1: new higher vacancies as well, UM in addition to the
Speaker 1: job cuts, and so there are two forces happening at
Speaker 1: the moment um. For those individuals who are spending a
Speaker 1: slowdown in new higher vacancies, what does that mean? So
Speaker 1: for postings for new hires, there's a slowdown in those.
Speaker 1: So there's both cuts as well as a slowdown and hiring.
Speaker 1: So it affects two populations, those currently in jobs who
Speaker 1: are losing them and those who are applying a fresh
Speaker 1: to new jobs. And so we're are starting to see day,
Speaker 1: at least in the US of UM it taking three
Speaker 1: to six months for people to find jobs in certain pockets.
Speaker 1: Now that's a certain picture. Now important to recognize the
Speaker 1: headlines that we see in the US do not apply
Speaker 1: equally across the world. So we're also seeing other geographies
Speaker 1: where there's been no slowdown at all in terms of hiring.
Speaker 1: And we're also seeing that UM although for tech jobs
Speaker 1: in particular, you might find slowdowns in tech companies, but
Speaker 1: there are other companies and other sectors. So it might
Speaker 1: be in the financial sector, it might be in manufacturing
Speaker 1: who are looking to hire for tech roles, and so
Speaker 1: that's another area of opportunity. Well, right, I mean, does
Speaker 1: this remind you at all of another job cycle? H
Speaker 1: two thousand and eight? Seriously? Seriously? Well, hopefully we don't
Speaker 1: reach that. I mean, so look, I think that what's
Speaker 1: what's important is to recognize this is all cyclical, right,
Speaker 1: and this cycle will take about two years to work
Speaker 1: itself out if if history is any indicator, um, so
Speaker 1: we're seeing a crunch and then again slow hiring, um,
Speaker 1: but then it will open up again. And and very
Speaker 1: importantly for job seekers is looking for those pockets where
Speaker 1: there is continued hiring and and that may not be
Speaker 1: in the tech sector, so it could be tech roles
Speaker 1: in other sectors. So is it safe to say, and
Speaker 1: just to kind of a little bit of a conclusion here,
Speaker 1: when we look at the data points that come from
Speaker 1: the government and elsewhere on the on the job market,
Speaker 1: which continue to show strength in the job market, are
Speaker 1: you saying it's really not the true picture or the
Speaker 1: full picture. It's a partial picture, right, you know, So
Speaker 1: again there is a partial when you look at which
Speaker 1: sectors are hiring versus where is there a slowdown. It's
Speaker 1: partial in terms of is it a global phenomena or
Speaker 1: is it a us phenomena UM. And then there is
Speaker 1: also a question I would say of demographics UM, because
Speaker 1: one thing that I will emphasize is that age matters
Speaker 1: when it comes to hiring. UM. We've done research and
Speaker 1: others have done research as well when you look at
Speaker 1: what happens when when you are aged forty plus it
Speaker 1: becomes much harder to find a job. That is why
Speaker 1: the majority of the long term unemployed six months or
Speaker 1: more are age forty plus. And that's across the O, E, C. D.
Speaker 1: So age matters here too and will impact unfortunately due
Speaker 1: to pervasive agism that we consistently see across employers and
Speaker 1: across geographies of how fast can you get yourself back
Speaker 1: into a job. So what's the focus for you at
Speaker 1: generation in terms of the types of the people who
Speaker 1: find themselves without jobs placing them age range? Yeah, So
Speaker 1: at generation we support adults of all a is UM
Speaker 1: so from eighteen years old to plus UM, and our
Speaker 1: learners are typically so first, they typically have a secondary
Speaker 1: school degree background UM. Over half our female the majority
Speaker 1: have dependence UM and they we are either placing them
Speaker 1: into their first job or we are supporting those who
Speaker 1: are age forty five plus and who may, for example,
Speaker 1: have been spending the last ten years working in retail
Speaker 1: or in logistics, and supporting to put them into green
Speaker 1: jobs or into tech jobs or whatever it might be. UM.
Speaker 1: So what we do is train and place learners into
Speaker 1: careers that otherwise would have been inaccessible. So I want
Speaker 1: to go back to something that you said earlier about
Speaker 1: this being reminding you of of two thousand eight. And
Speaker 1: you know, if we go back to two thousand and eight,
Speaker 1: the unemployment rate was right now it's at three point
Speaker 1: six percent. So what else about the environment right now
Speaker 1: that you're seeing out there tells you that this is
Speaker 1: similar to back then. I'm just not seeing it. There's
Speaker 1: UM an element of what I'll just call copycat behavior UM,
Speaker 1: which is when employers start to see that some companies
Speaker 1: are doing layoffs, it starts to make everyone much more conservative. UM.
Speaker 1: And that is and that is with regards to new hires.
Speaker 1: And so the question for us is because we are
Speaker 1: often placing people into entry level roles irrespective of which
Speaker 1: profession it's in, and so you start to see it
Speaker 1: taking longer to get people into rolls. So it's not
Speaker 1: that they will not make it, but you know it.
Speaker 1: Whereas before we could support someone within three months, it
Speaker 1: might now take six months, um and so, and we're
Speaker 1: seeing this also in the reticence of employers to also
Speaker 1: commit to saying, you know, these are the vacancies which
Speaker 1: we're going to have this month or that month. Everyone
Speaker 1: is watching and waiting to see what happens. In addition,
Speaker 1: the I m F recently came out to say that
Speaker 1: you know, a third of the world's economies are going
Speaker 1: to go into recess in this year, which is a
Speaker 1: big deal. Um. So twenty three is very much a
Speaker 1: watch and wait and observed. You know, mona earlier you
Speaker 1: said the government date, it's a partial picture of what's
Speaker 1: going on in the US labor market. So having said that,
Speaker 1: based on what you're saying, it sounds to me that
Speaker 1: very soon we might see some of this show up.
Speaker 1: Is that your expectations. The expectation is absolutely that over
Speaker 1: the coming months we're going to see not just for
Speaker 1: the U. S economy, but for the world how resilient
Speaker 1: is the hiring going to be. And it will obviously
Speaker 1: nothing will ever be true across the entire world, but
Speaker 1: it will be in pockets. Um. So you'll find some sectors.
Speaker 1: You know, clearly the tech sector is heavily affected right now, um,
Speaker 1: but you may not see that same trend in green
Speaker 1: jobs or in healthcare. And so this is why it's
Speaker 1: so important to look at the picture sector by sector
Speaker 1: and not just economy wide. Older workers. Do we need them? Absolutely?
Speaker 1: We need them? Um. You know, I think the age
Speaker 1: forty plus population is a remarkable asset that should be
Speaker 1: much more employed than is the case. You have a
Speaker 1: bunch of people around the news room and our kids
Speaker 1: who are listening to the like when did forty five
Speaker 1: become old? Because when you look at the when, when
Speaker 1: you look at government stats, the majority of the long
Speaker 1: term unemployed or age forty five plus? What it? As
Speaker 1: soon as you know, I say this to you as
Speaker 1: a fifty one year old. I recently had a birthday, um,
Speaker 1: and so thank you. It's interesting because you know, we
Speaker 1: talk about aging demographics and the impact it can have
Speaker 1: on a country's economy. Right. We've talked about it, certainly
Speaker 1: with Japan, We've talked about it with the US. Increasingly
Speaker 1: we've talked about it even with China, who's seeing an
Speaker 1: aging population in the costs that that has in in
Speaker 1: so many different ways. UM, I don't know. I'm not
Speaker 1: pretty sure what the smart I mean. Should we be
Speaker 1: putting these people to work? Isn't that better for the
Speaker 1: global economy? Or tim? What do you think? Well? Have
Speaker 1: one question for him on a ten seconds Okay, if
Speaker 1: somebody really young is listening right now thinking about what
Speaker 1: they're studying in college or studying in trade school, what
Speaker 1: should it be? Uh? I get this question frequently now,
Speaker 1: so look, I'm going to give a practice to answer,
Speaker 1: which very quickly. It's about how quickly you learn. It
Speaker 1: is often not about what you learn, it's how quickly
Speaker 1: you learned. I like that interesting. Alright, some really thoughts
Speaker 1: in terms of today's labor market. Dr Monamore said, founder
Speaker 1: and CEO of Generation, via Zoom from Washington, d C.
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us
Speaker 1: live week days from two to five pm Eastern on
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Radio, the Bloomberg Business Band You Two. You can
Speaker 1: also listen live to our flagship New York station, Just
Speaker 1: Say Alexa, Play Bloomberg, E Love and Verdi. A wind
Speaker 1: turbine taller than the Statue of Liberty collapse last June
Speaker 1: in UH Aims ninety miles northwest of Oklahoma City, and
Speaker 1: a few days later another one tim collapsed in Colorado.
Speaker 1: The instances are part of a rash of recent wind
Speaker 1: turbine malfunctions across the US and Europe, ranging from failures
Speaker 1: of key components to full collapses. Writing about it in
Speaker 1: the new issue of Bloomberg Business Week is Ryan Bean,
Speaker 1: industrials reporter for Bloomberg News. He joins us along with
Speaker 1: the editor of the magazine, Joel Webber. Both are in
Speaker 1: our Bloomberg Interactive Broker's Studio. This story, by the way,
Speaker 1: it's in the new issue of Business Week. It's out
Speaker 1: on news stands later this week. You can already read
Speaker 1: the story online at Bloomberg dot com, slash business Week
Speaker 1: and of course always on the Bloomberg terminal. Joel, I
Speaker 1: want to start with you, how how bad is this?
Speaker 1: I mean, do we do we? You know? Are these
Speaker 1: things like falling all over the place? Hard? Hard to know? No,
Speaker 1: But the bigger story here is that uh as sustainable
Speaker 1: source of energy have become so much more cost effective.
Speaker 1: Everybody's been scaling up, so turbines have gotten bigger, bigger, bigger.
Speaker 1: It's like just imagine and steroids and these things have
Speaker 1: gotten massive, and at the same time, maybe the same
Speaker 1: quality control has been going into these products as that
Speaker 1: they've gotten bigger. So so, Ryan, what does this mean
Speaker 1: for the companies and for the rest of us who
Speaker 1: at the you know, live with turbines that might snap
Speaker 1: and be flailing around in the wild. Sure? Well, first
Speaker 1: of all, I don't think most people who live near
Speaker 1: or or or have these turbines in their community need
Speaker 1: to be super super worried all the time. But uh,
Speaker 1: right now, it means the companies are just paying a
Speaker 1: lot of money to address these quality issues. I mean,
Speaker 1: just a few days before we published the story, uh
Speaker 1: seem As Gamesa, one of the largest winterbine manufacturers in
Speaker 1: the world, announced you know, a pretty significant charge totaling
Speaker 1: hundreds of millions of euros related to you know, premature
Speaker 1: component failures in their turbines that were already installed. I mean,
Speaker 1: g E has taken you know, similar charges for to
Speaker 1: fix you know issues with their fleet of installed turbines.
Speaker 1: And I think you know, one thing that's important for
Speaker 1: for listeners to understand it is like this industry is
Speaker 1: still kind of in its I guess call it an adolescence,
Speaker 1: if you will. I mean, we've seen, you know, just
Speaker 1: not only turbines themselves get bigger, but projects get bigger
Speaker 1: and volume going up, and these companies have had a
Speaker 1: sort of race to develop a supply chain and rEFInd
Speaker 1: their manufacturing practices to go along with that growth. So
Speaker 1: I think that a lot of this is sort of
Speaker 1: growing pains to degree And what do we know about
Speaker 1: the factors? Are they external factors that are coming to
Speaker 1: bear on the turbines or is it the turbines it's
Speaker 1: themselves that seem to be faulty. It can be It's
Speaker 1: tough to say. It's a little bit of both, right,
Speaker 1: I mean, in one of these instances, you know that
Speaker 1: you mentioned at the beginning of the show, uh, some
Speaker 1: officials from the operator of the wind farm told you know,
Speaker 1: the local county commissioners that it was due to a
Speaker 1: blade flaw and that you know, four other turbines had
Speaker 1: experienced the same blade flaw that caused you know, similar failures.
Speaker 1: And then you know, over the course of our reporting,
Speaker 1: and you know, some of the other publicly reported uh,
Speaker 1: you know collapses, you know, some of them have been
Speaker 1: linked to construction issues. Uh, some of them have been
Speaker 1: looked to defects with with componentry. Uh, you know, so
Speaker 1: it's it's it's a variety of things. It's nobody. I
Speaker 1: don't know if nobody has been hurt, but but none
Speaker 1: of the instances that we reported on had any injuries involved.
Speaker 1: Now what's interesting is it's not just land turbines. This
Speaker 1: also happened, at least in one instance, to an offshore
Speaker 1: wind turbine. As that's describing your in your story. And
Speaker 1: I'm wondering, Ryan, I I see stories like this and
Speaker 1: I think about the politics of of wind because it's
Speaker 1: very political. You know, if we think back to what
Speaker 1: happened in Texas a couple of years ago during the
Speaker 1: deep freeze when some wind turbines stopped working and generating
Speaker 1: power there, and then you have all these offshore wind
Speaker 1: projects in communities around the country that are creating a
Speaker 1: lot of tension in communities. Um, is a story like
Speaker 1: this just ammunition for opponents of wind power. I'm sure
Speaker 1: that opponents of wind power are going to look at
Speaker 1: this and point to this as as evidence of say,
Speaker 1: we can't keep rushing to push these things out all
Speaker 1: the time. But uh, then again, you know, as you
Speaker 1: point out, wind has always had its detractors, right, I
Speaker 1: mean from you know, local community residents up opposing an
Speaker 1: offshore wind farm because it will disrupt their beautiful coastal views,
Speaker 1: or you know, concerned you know, fishermen who are worried
Speaker 1: about an offshore wind farm will disrupt their livelihoods. Um.
Speaker 1: You know, wind has a variety of you know of
Speaker 1: groups and folks who are opposed to this, and I
Speaker 1: think there's always going to be a contingent out there
Speaker 1: that will, you know, look for reasons to slow down
Speaker 1: this technology. You know. Um, I'm curious Ryan if you're
Speaker 1: if what in your reporting that as a result of
Speaker 1: what's happening. And I highly recommend everybody check out the
Speaker 1: story either online or in the magazine later. And I
Speaker 1: don't know if we have pictures to put up on
Speaker 1: our YouTube and Bloomberg cricktakee um streaming service, because to
Speaker 1: see like the blades bent, it's just like it is
Speaker 1: like crazy, it's carnage came through here. And yeah, you're
Speaker 1: so used to just seeing them slowly turning the majestic
Speaker 1: machines when they go wrong, And I mean when large
Speaker 1: I mean large infrastructure can sometimes fail, right, and that's
Speaker 1: sort of by its nature. When it does fail, it
Speaker 1: can be really really dramatic, and you know, frankly, that's
Speaker 1: sort of what got me interested in this, you know,
Speaker 1: early on, when you know, over a year ago, when
Speaker 1: we would see a couple of reports of a turbine
Speaker 1: failing in Europe or a turbine failing in the US.
Speaker 1: So just you know, recently after after General Electric, which
Speaker 1: is one of the main companies that I covered on
Speaker 1: an ongoing basis, when they took a big charge in
Speaker 1: the third quarter last year, I decided to really start
Speaker 1: sort of dig in to figure out what what's really
Speaker 1: going on here and how much of an issue is
Speaker 1: this really let's stay with it. How did see a
Speaker 1: lyric characterize that those expenses when when these things come up,
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, I mean what he said was that,
Speaker 1: you know that charges about a five million dollar charge
Speaker 1: to basically reflect that, uh, the amount of money that
Speaker 1: they were going to need to set aside for warranty
Speaker 1: coverage and for repair camp paints was about twice as much.
Speaker 1: Who knew there was a warranty on these parts? Oh,
Speaker 1: everything has a warranty, concluding wind turbines. You take the
Speaker 1: serial number, you write it down just this, you attack
Speaker 1: on the front. Where is the serial number on this?
Speaker 1: Where do I find this? I mean, these things are huge.
Speaker 1: And the reason I know they're so big is, you know,
Speaker 1: just driving in the desert in California years ago, but
Speaker 1: that was those are tiny compared to what you see
Speaker 1: these days. They are I've been on the highway before
Speaker 1: and you see like parts of these things being taken
Speaker 1: to places and you're like, wait a second, that is
Speaker 1: just like one turbine. How big are these? I mean
Speaker 1: the largest blades that are coming out now for offshore
Speaker 1: machines to be installed in the not too distant future.
Speaker 1: They're they're as long or longer than a football field
Speaker 1: in some case for a blade. For a blade, so
Speaker 1: imagine that, Just imagine that for a moment, and there's
Speaker 1: three of them, and and I'm glad you mentioned the
Speaker 1: transportation issues. I mean, some of the factors that are
Speaker 1: going to limit how big a turbine can be in
Speaker 1: any given space is not necessarily related to what's physically
Speaker 1: possible with the technology. It's like, can you get a
Speaker 1: blade to a farm on a piece of land in
Speaker 1: the middle of rural Nebraska or or what have you.
Speaker 1: Can you fit them on the roads? I mean, how
Speaker 1: do you how do you maneuver a truck carrying a
Speaker 1: blade of that length, you know, around a corner. Um,
Speaker 1: it's it's, it's it's a fascinating industry. And um the
Speaker 1: scale of stuff is sort of all inspiring. And of
Speaker 1: course the insurance premiums will go well, of course they will.
Speaker 1: Of course they will incredible read and like we said,
Speaker 1: check out the pictures. We threw them up there for
Speaker 1: streaming and for YouTube, but check it out online and
Speaker 1: on the Bloomberg and of course in the magazine. Bryan,
Speaker 1: thank you so much. Interesting story, Ryan Bean, Industrials reporter
Speaker 1: at Bloomberg News here in our interactive Broker studio along
Speaker 1: with the editor of Bloomberg business Week magazine, Joe Webber.
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us
Speaker 1: live weekdays from two to five pm Eastern on Bloomberg
Speaker 1: Radio The Bloomberg ausness a band you Doo. You can
Speaker 1: also listen live to our flagship New York station, Just
Speaker 1: Say Alexa Play Bloomberg e Love and Didy. We dealt
Speaker 1: with the integrated oil companies because we know that they're
Speaker 1: going to be reporting earnings with that in mind. As
Speaker 1: well as a big development last month, you know, when
Speaker 1: scientists in California made that key breakthrough in nuclear fusion. UM,
Speaker 1: we wanted to talk a little bit more about what's
Speaker 1: going on in this space. You were reaching out again
Speaker 1: to an organization that blew our minds away when we
Speaker 1: did our remote broadcast from the New Jersey Institute of
Speaker 1: Technology last year. Very pleased to add with us Stephen Cowley,
Speaker 1: laboratory director at Princeton Plasma Physics Lab here in our
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Interactive Broker's studio. We've also got a special guest
Speaker 1: with us joining us this afternoon, Will Wade, as Bloomberg
Speaker 1: Power and Renewable Energy Editor. He's joining us today as
Speaker 1: well for this conversation, so we're excited to have Will
Speaker 1: with us as well. So Steven, let's start with you
Speaker 1: first of all. So great to have you here with us.
Speaker 1: I know that there's been all of a sudden a
Speaker 1: lot of attention. Tell us and remind us about the
Speaker 1: significance of what happened in that California lab and how
Speaker 1: you guys think about it at your own lab. Well,
Speaker 1: the big thing that happened was that they produced an
Speaker 1: experiment in which the fusion energy that came out of
Speaker 1: the capsule was more than the energy they had to
Speaker 1: put in, which they hadn't been able to do before
Speaker 1: first ever, Right, a magnificent achievement. They got three mega
Speaker 1: jewels out. One mega jewel is the power of a
Speaker 1: hand grenade, so they got a power of three hand
Speaker 1: grenades coming out of this experiment. That's pretty pretty significant
Speaker 1: from an object that was about the size of a peppercorn.
Speaker 1: So how do you harness this energy and replicate this
Speaker 1: piece of kick? Now we can just go off done
Speaker 1: in a lab. But but but how do you do
Speaker 1: it to power our hearts? Well, ultimately, fusion is going
Speaker 1: to be a very sophisticated steam engine because you're using
Speaker 1: the energy that powers the stars, which fusion joining of
Speaker 1: small nuclei together to make bigger ones, in this case
Speaker 1: two kinds of hydrogen to make helium um and you're
Speaker 1: using it to make heat, and then you're using that
Speaker 1: heat in the very conventional way to power turbine and
Speaker 1: make electricity. And that's the goal, right, And we're now
Speaker 1: seeing tremendous excitement about taking these kinds of scientific results
Speaker 1: and turning them into something that's commercial and that's going
Speaker 1: to be hard. Do you, Carol, do you have you know,
Speaker 1: Christopher Lloyd and Michael J. Fox in your head from
Speaker 1: the future. This is actually happening. All right, let's bring it.
Speaker 1: Will Await, as we mentioned Power Renewable Energy editor Bloomberg News.
Speaker 1: We love talking with Will, so we'll come on. And
Speaker 1: you have been reporting in the space, join our conversation,
Speaker 1: and you've talked with Stephen before I have. And what
Speaker 1: is it that you know you think about in covering
Speaker 1: this space and what you want to know when you
Speaker 1: pick the brain of somebody like Stephen H Well, I
Speaker 1: guess the key question is how long it's going to take?
Speaker 1: And the answer always seems to be quite a long time. Still,
Speaker 1: were many many years out of decades probably, but we
Speaker 1: should not discount the achievement that they had in California
Speaker 1: last month that really was amazing when used it when
Speaker 1: all right, So why is it decades to even help
Speaker 1: us through this? Um, It's it's decades because at this
Speaker 1: point we have just lit the fire. We have to
Speaker 1: make a furnace, and we have to make a furnace
Speaker 1: that operates twenty four seven. We have to make a
Speaker 1: furnace that then, you know, integrates a number of technologies
Speaker 1: that haven't actually yet been tried. Um. Inside a fusion reactor,
Speaker 1: you have to make part of your fuel, and so
Speaker 1: you use part of your of your fusion power to
Speaker 1: actually make one of the fuels that you then put
Speaker 1: into your fusion system. Never done that part right, So
Speaker 1: there's a hard work to do, right. I always say
Speaker 1: to people, I think we know we can do it.
Speaker 1: The question now is can we do it at a
Speaker 1: price you want to pay for your electricity? Well? Can we?
Speaker 1: I think we can? I hope in my lifetime, but
Speaker 1: you know, I'm getting old. Is it safe? Fusion has
Speaker 1: this nice quantity if it's really hard. You said grenade earlier.
Speaker 1: That got me a little. Yeah. It's a bad analogy,
Speaker 1: isn't it. Yeah, So so that one of the good
Speaker 1: things about fusion is that it's very easy to turn off. Right.
Speaker 1: It goes out unless you sustain it. So it can't
Speaker 1: you can't run away like things like you know, ricocheting
Speaker 1: off and all of a sudden you think of a meltown. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you cannot get a meltdown in a fusion reactor UM
Speaker 1: and the so the safety prognosis, and we've done analysis
Speaker 1: of what future fusion reactors might look like, is that
Speaker 1: fusion reactors could be put next to cities. Fusion reactors
Speaker 1: could be placed where we now have coal fired power stations. UM.
Speaker 1: They could replace in all aspects are current generating capability,
Speaker 1: and they have these very favorable safety prognosis. Yeah, the
Speaker 1: safety about fusion is actually one of the things I
Speaker 1: think is really cool about it. You mentioned meltdown. That's
Speaker 1: what we think about when you think of a typical
Speaker 1: nuclear power plant, which uses fission. So the thing with
Speaker 1: a fission plant is it's it's relatively easy to start
Speaker 1: that type of nuclear reaction, but it's harder to turn
Speaker 1: it off. That's why they have the cooling pools and
Speaker 1: all sorts of other things to try and control that.
Speaker 1: With a fusion reaction, it's much harder to get it going.
Speaker 1: But if somehow you lost control of it. The thing
Speaker 1: that's fun about it is that it shuts itself down
Speaker 1: like super instantly fractions of a second. So safety is
Speaker 1: not the biggest concern. You know, I'm thinking well about
Speaker 1: where we are as a society, and in what we've
Speaker 1: seen over the last year in terms of energy transition,
Speaker 1: the world is so reliant on fossil fuels. We're going
Speaker 1: to talk with you about nuclear energy in just a
Speaker 1: few minutes. But where do governments come in when they're
Speaker 1: supporting technology like this, Because wouldn't it make sense if
Speaker 1: everybody just got together and said, hey, we're going all
Speaker 1: in on on fusion. You got to show me the
Speaker 1: money and then something earlier like this, it always has
Speaker 1: to come from government, some sind of subsidized loan or
Speaker 1: grant programs. Things like this cost a lot of money,
Speaker 1: and in the early days, it's hard to get you know,
Speaker 1: commercial investment in something that's so risky, so you always
Speaker 1: have to start with government money. What's been interesting in
Speaker 1: the last four or five years is that venture capital
Speaker 1: to come into the business. And in the last year,
Speaker 1: I think in the last actual calendar year, we had
Speaker 1: about two point seven billion of investment into into fusion startups.
Speaker 1: So that's the private money, private money generating a set
Speaker 1: new ideas and new energy into the business, and this
Speaker 1: may propel things forward a lot faster than we're currently going.
Speaker 1: But there's some fundamental problems to solve, and I was
Speaker 1: saying the most important thing to happen is is smart people.
Speaker 1: We need smart people because this problem is solvable, but
Speaker 1: it needs some innevaction. Well, I feel like you're time
Speaker 1: we go to NJ I T, which is where we
Speaker 1: talked with a colleague of yours from the lab, like
Speaker 1: this whole idea of STEM education and how important My
Speaker 1: dad was an engineer, worked on the space program, but
Speaker 1: that was it was a cool thing for people to
Speaker 1: be engineers. And I just feel like, I don't know
Speaker 1: if there's that same momentum for people to do that
Speaker 1: you talked about having first of all the skill set
Speaker 1: and the people we need to do all this because
Speaker 1: there's still a lot to be done to make fusion
Speaker 1: I guess a reality on a grand scale. I mean,
Speaker 1: do we have the talent out there to do it?
Speaker 1: Do we have kids getting the right education to make
Speaker 1: sure we can carry through to the finish line if
Speaker 1: you want. I think young people are very motivated by
Speaker 1: climate change in a way that my generation probably weren't
Speaker 1: as strongly, And we're getting huge numbers of applications to
Speaker 1: grad school to undergraduates. One need to work in the space,
Speaker 1: particularly fusion energy. I mean, who wouldn't want to work
Speaker 1: on an energy source that powers the stars? You know?
Speaker 1: It feels like kind of the next a moon shot,
Speaker 1: although we took a big step closer right in December.
Speaker 1: Is the is the ultimate goal of this, Dr Cowley,
Speaker 1: that we have fusion power power plants? Oh? Sure? And
Speaker 1: it's sort of the perfect it it's the perfect energy
Speaker 1: source to to marry with renewables because you could turn
Speaker 1: it on, you can turn it off, and when the
Speaker 1: sun doesn't shine and the wind doesn't blow, you have
Speaker 1: a you have a source of energy. It's got this
Speaker 1: one problem, you know, to actually make fusion happen, you
Speaker 1: have to recreate the conditions in the middle of a star,
Speaker 1: and that's very hot, like two million degrees um, and
Speaker 1: hold that together while you make the reactions happen. So
Speaker 1: it's it's also rather cool. Well that's what I think about,
Speaker 1: like the level of heat intensity, right, and then having
Speaker 1: the materials I'm assuming right to make it safe as
Speaker 1: you do that is that not such a problem. So
Speaker 1: that in my laboratory we deal with that is that
Speaker 1: we hold the fuel in a cage of magnetic field
Speaker 1: and you just hold it suspended so it doesn't touch anything,
Speaker 1: because if it touched anything, it would just get cold. Um,
Speaker 1: and you know, heats up. And we've taken things up
Speaker 1: to five million degrees. Okay, that sounds pretty hot. It's awesome.
Speaker 1: Welcome ahead. This is one of the reasons why we
Speaker 1: wanted Will Wade to continue to join our conversation. He's
Speaker 1: renewables reporter for Bloomberg News and he's got a big
Speaker 1: take out today along with Jonathan Tyrone, all about nuclear power.
Speaker 1: So we go from fusion to fishing. And the idea
Speaker 1: here Will is that where at a time when the
Speaker 1: world wants to decrease its reliance on fossil fuels, and
Speaker 1: here in the US, about fifty years ago we and
Speaker 1: around the world, we built a lot of nuclear power plants.
Speaker 1: The problem is is now these nuclear power plants they're
Speaker 1: approaching middle age, or beyond middle age or beyond you know,
Speaker 1: they're definitely getting old. The thing is, in the last year,
Speaker 1: year and a half or so, I've really seen in
Speaker 1: the industry a big shift in views on nuclear energy.
Speaker 1: There used to be a lot of people have sort
Speaker 1: of just a gut level negative reaction to nuclear just
Speaker 1: sort of a fear of the risk. Well, they lived
Speaker 1: through Chernobyl, they did Three Mile Island, Fukushima. All of
Speaker 1: those are real things. And there's still a lot of
Speaker 1: people that are just vehemently opposed to the risk from
Speaker 1: nuclear energy. But a lot of those same people are
Speaker 1: now starting to realize that the potential risk from nuclear
Speaker 1: accidents is outweighed by the very real risk of what
Speaker 1: we're seeing from climate change, and now we're realizing we
Speaker 1: need that carbon free nuclear energy to achieve our climate goals.
Speaker 1: Say Steve, you understand both fusion and fission, so and
Speaker 1: nuclear power. I mean, is it time for us to
Speaker 1: continue with some nuclear power because we have to because
Speaker 1: of the climate, or is it or should we not be?
Speaker 1: I mean you understand the space, the radioactive waste that
Speaker 1: doesn't go away as we wait for fusion to be
Speaker 1: a right reality on a grand scale. How do you
Speaker 1: see it? I think we've got to do fishing until
Speaker 1: we have fusion. You do, because I think the enemy
Speaker 1: right now is climate change, and it's accelerating. We see
Speaker 1: all the impact that it's going to have. And again,
Speaker 1: the thing, the big surprise the last few years is
Speaker 1: how renewables have come down in price, and they're doing
Speaker 1: a terrific job in that sector of the market. But
Speaker 1: you've always got to back that up with something that's
Speaker 1: there when the wind doesn't blow in, the sun doesn't shine,
Speaker 1: and fishing can do that. We know how to do
Speaker 1: the technology, we have to do it more efficiently than
Speaker 1: we've been doing. What does that mean more efficiently? Well?
Speaker 1: Building nuclear power stations is a very expensive business, and
Speaker 1: the cost overruns on every project that I've ever seen
Speaker 1: a phenomenal um. And it's about managing. It's about managing
Speaker 1: those projects in a better, more efficient way, um and
Speaker 1: delivering fishing at the costs that we really want to pay.
Speaker 1: Part of the problem is that we have not been
Speaker 1: building nuclear power plants, so we've kind of lost that
Speaker 1: skill set. We don't have a veteran workforce that knows
Speaker 1: what they're doing. All the ones that are happening now
Speaker 1: are kind of one off projects, which is exactly why
Speaker 1: they're taking much longer and costing so much more. The
Speaker 1: only US nuclear power plants under construction is in Georgia.
Speaker 1: It's Vogel. It's been under it's like seven years behind schedule,
Speaker 1: and the budget has doubled to thirty billion dollars, but
Speaker 1: it's supposed to be finished this year. Do you know
Speaker 1: you talked about a younger generation caring about climate change,
Speaker 1: so they want jobs and fusion younger generation that cares
Speaker 1: about climate change. If you're saying that fission nuclear is
Speaker 1: also part of the equation, do they want to work
Speaker 1: at a nuclear power plant at younger generation? I'm just curious.
Speaker 1: I think that's a harder sell. But I think we
Speaker 1: I think we should be working on that, frankly, because
Speaker 1: I think, you know, this is the way to get
Speaker 1: to net zero, and if you look at any of
Speaker 1: those plans like the one we have from Princeton ends
Speaker 1: up net zero American plan, right, that plan basically relies
Speaker 1: on either carbon capture and storage or fission to fill
Speaker 1: in the gaps these Carbon capture will something that is skeptical. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I think the technology can work, but can
Speaker 1: we make it work cost effectively? I think that's the question.
Speaker 1: I have a lot of questions about carbon capture. It's
Speaker 1: literally what it sounds like, something on the smoke stack
Speaker 1: of a coal or gas power plant. You trap the
Speaker 1: carbon and then you injected underground and send that carbon
Speaker 1: back to where it's from go ahead. I think of
Speaker 1: those two technologies as being transition technologies. Neither one do
Speaker 1: you want to do for decade after decade because you're
Speaker 1: gonna have to bury the carbon dioxide somewhere. Um and
Speaker 1: the only and again with fishing, you do have a
Speaker 1: long term waste issue and you don't want to do
Speaker 1: it for decade after decades because they laun term really
Speaker 1: long term. Yes, so I mean this is which is
Speaker 1: why you want fusion to replace deadly for thousands of years. Well,
Speaker 1: having visited a nuclear power plant, looked at the pools
Speaker 1: with their rods, like, it's pretty startling and pretty like
Speaker 1: a reality. Renewables, wind solar, how do you what percentage
Speaker 1: do you think that they will ultimately be long term
Speaker 1: or is or is it something that ultimately will In
Speaker 1: a lot of these plans, they're producing sixty seventy of
Speaker 1: the net. It's just the gaps that become their problem. Um.
Speaker 1: And you know, if we have fusion that might change
Speaker 1: that that environment a lot. What about battery technology improving
Speaker 1: faster than fusion. I think that the challenge with battery
Speaker 1: technology is long duration storage. Batteries are good at short duration,
Speaker 1: but for instance, in Britain we have we have Decembers
Speaker 1: in which there is no win and of course no
Speaker 1: sun because it's Britain um and um, and you have
Speaker 1: to store up all the energy to power the country
Speaker 1: for the whole of December. That is enormously challenging with
Speaker 1: with with batteries. Now you live in the northeast where
Speaker 1: you know the sun shines three that speaks of California.
Speaker 1: Just got about thirty seconds left here. So what's the
Speaker 1: next thing when it comes to fusion that we should
Speaker 1: keep on our radar that you think we might see
Speaker 1: in the next year. Well, expect the Kniff results to
Speaker 1: get better over the year. Their next test is in February.
Speaker 1: Hopefully they'll replicate what they did or even do better.
Speaker 1: They're on the edge of a cliff of what we
Speaker 1: call gain, and you know they have a gain. They
Speaker 1: put in two mega jewels, they got out three mega jewels.
Speaker 1: I could see them going up to ten, maybe fifteen
Speaker 1: possibly over this next year. That would be phenomenal. Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm googling Mega job. What's a mega job? Mega jewel?
Speaker 1: Mega jewel units of energy and it's the unit of energy.
Speaker 1: It's about the energy of a hand grenade or a
Speaker 1: candy ball. That's right, that's right hand and hey candy bar,
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, please come back, both of you, because
Speaker 1: that was just kind of what we were hoping to
Speaker 1: do and just share that with our audience. Steve Calli,
Speaker 1: Dr Steve Calli, Laboratory Director of Princeton Plasma Physics Lab,
Speaker 1: and of course our own Will Wade here's Power and
Speaker 1: Renewable Energy editor here at Bloomberg News. Thank you to
Speaker 1: both of you. Really appreciate it. Thank you. You're listening
Speaker 1: to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us live week
Speaker 1: days from two to five pm Easter on Bloomberg Radio,
Speaker 1: the Bloomberg Business app band you too. You can also
Speaker 1: listen live to our flagship New York station, Just Say
Speaker 1: Alexa Play Bloomberg e Love and Verdi Well. I have
Speaker 1: to say shocker today on the global stage, as the
Speaker 1: news came out that New Zealand Prime Minister just Sinda
Speaker 1: Ardern announcing she's stepping back in a shock resignation ahead
Speaker 1: of a general election leader this year. You know, keep
Speaker 1: in mind she was the world's um youngest female leader
Speaker 1: when she led her Labor Party to power in seventeen.
Speaker 1: She's basically saying, and she told reporters, I don't know
Speaker 1: the energy or inspiration to seek re election. So stepping back, yes,
Speaker 1: she told reporters, as you mentioned, that she doesn't have
Speaker 1: the energy or inspiration to seek re election, which I
Speaker 1: was pretty surprised if she can't do it, Carol, what
Speaker 1: what hope is they're out there for female leaders more generally,
Speaker 1: and with that, we want to bring on our next guest. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I Hope Dimachowski a senior executive VP and chief financial
Speaker 1: Officer at the more than thirteen billion dollar market camp
Speaker 1: First Horizon Bank based in Memphis. She joins us via
Speaker 1: zoom from Memphis, Tennesseee Hope, nice to have you here
Speaker 1: with Tim and myself a lot we want to talk
Speaker 1: to you about. But when you see a headline like
Speaker 1: that or somebody else in the c suite that's a
Speaker 1: woman that steps down or you know, resigns or whatever
Speaker 1: and then isn't replaced by another woman, Like, how do
Speaker 1: you think about it? Because are you seeing you're in
Speaker 1: the c suite, your CFO at First Horizon, do you
Speaker 1: feel like women are really making in roads when it
Speaker 1: comes to the c suite? Unfortunately, I agree with your
Speaker 1: introductory comments. Is absolutely when one person leaves like um
Speaker 1: that we've had, and it's actually the second one for
Speaker 1: us because we also lost the English Prime Minister earlier
Speaker 1: this year after a very short time and with such
Speaker 1: a few women representation in certain industries and fields, when
Speaker 1: one leaves unexpectedly, it definitely has a big impact on
Speaker 1: all of us. We feel that you know each one
Speaker 1: of us when you we want to go up in number,
Speaker 1: if you want to have more representation, whether it's a
Speaker 1: C suite or in top layers of government. So it
Speaker 1: absolutely hits us all each time we see one of
Speaker 1: these senior women step back from any type of role
Speaker 1: in a area which is a significantly underrepresented. Based on
Speaker 1: your experience, how do we get from underrepresented to accurately represented?
Speaker 1: Great question. Yeah, I think it really comes with a
Speaker 1: conscious effort. But I think the data has shown in
Speaker 1: Harvard Business study. The great study on this last year
Speaker 1: is diverse companies that have high diversity at the top,
Speaker 1: it just continues through the company. So the more that
Speaker 1: we get diversity in the c suite of women, people
Speaker 1: of color, the more that you see your companies start
Speaker 1: to change. People want to work where they can see
Speaker 1: themselves in that role. I do a lot of on
Speaker 1: campus recruiting through a couple of different companies that I've
Speaker 1: worked for in recent years, and the number one thing
Speaker 1: I hear from diverse talent, both women and minorities, is
Speaker 1: what does your c suite look like? And I can't
Speaker 1: see myself getting there if I don't see people like
Speaker 1: me there. So I think representation matters. It speaks to
Speaker 1: you go after top talent. It speaks of belonging right
Speaker 1: like if you don't see it, like, how can you
Speaker 1: feel like you you belong there or you know it's
Speaker 1: a good fit. How tough was it for you to
Speaker 1: work your way up? That's a hard question to say,
Speaker 1: how tough. We each have our own journey, but there's
Speaker 1: definitely a different path, you know. I started my career
Speaker 1: in investment banking in New York City. When I started
Speaker 1: with Deutsche Bank, they had a hundred leadership development graduates
Speaker 1: in the US and they had three women. So I
Speaker 1: was the diversity candidate. Uh, you know, twenty years ago.
Speaker 1: I think the hardest thing has been trying to find
Speaker 1: mentors and trying to find people that can help you
Speaker 1: along your route. Just got asked on a panel this
Speaker 1: morning here in Memphis. You know, do I have a
Speaker 1: problem finding male mentors the answers, No, I've had lots
Speaker 1: of great male mentors and allies. I have a harder
Speaker 1: time finding women that have been in the c suite
Speaker 1: or have been at big companies that can mentor me
Speaker 1: and work through those situations with us. What about the pipeline,
Speaker 1: as you know, not necessarily c suite executives yet, but
Speaker 1: those who are in their career maybe you know, midway
Speaker 1: through their careers. How do we how do we make
Speaker 1: that more equitable because that's what gets you, that's what
Speaker 1: gets you to the c suite. Yeah, there's a broken wrong,
Speaker 1: especially in banking, but a lot of industries when it
Speaker 1: comes to women and minorities, and it has to be
Speaker 1: constantly having ally ship, constantly having mentorship, and having purposeful
Speaker 1: recruiting at all levels. Uh, sales Force such a great job.
Speaker 1: Two years ago, I think it was might be three.
Speaker 1: Kind of lose track of time with COVID, but they
Speaker 1: had a equity study, made sure they had equal pay
Speaker 1: at all levels, and really made a conscious effort even
Speaker 1: out and two years later they found out they went backwards.
Speaker 1: So the unconscious bias it's there, and so you if
Speaker 1: you're not tracking it, you're not measuring, if you're not
Speaker 1: making a conscious effort for not making the progress or
Speaker 1: we need to make um. You know, it's interesting too.
Speaker 1: I mean, did you ever feel like at some point
Speaker 1: though you're like, it's just really really it sounds like
Speaker 1: you've had a pretty good trajectory um and good people
Speaker 1: behind you helping your way. What was the most difficult
Speaker 1: time though in your journey? As you say, everybody's journey
Speaker 1: is different, but was there a point where it was tough?
Speaker 1: Multiple times, I can't tell you how many times I've
Speaker 1: sat down with my husband and said, I'm not sure
Speaker 1: this is for me, you know, being a wife and
Speaker 1: being a mother of three, when your work and a
Speaker 1: job situation or a I've had dealt with a lot
Speaker 1: of bias in my career. Unfortunately, when that takes away
Speaker 1: your ability to feel good about yourself, it impacts you
Speaker 1: in your other areas. And so so many times I've
Speaker 1: had my career impacted with changes I've had. Um, you know,
Speaker 1: somebody make a comment to me that was very sexist
Speaker 1: or inappropriate, and every single time it made me question,
Speaker 1: is this is what I want to do? Is this
Speaker 1: then environment I want to work in? And it's why
Speaker 1: I'm so passionate now that I have made it to
Speaker 1: the C suite and lucky to be one of the
Speaker 1: women doing and doing mentorship and doing conversations like this
Speaker 1: and sitting on panels so that other women can know
Speaker 1: it's not easy and it's okay to be hard. It's
Speaker 1: okay to question yourself. Someday you need to, each one
Speaker 1: of us just figure out what was the right thing
Speaker 1: for you. And each one of those times I came
Speaker 1: back and said, Okay, I'm going to continue harm and
Speaker 1: continue with this company, and I'm gonna be the one
Speaker 1: that makes the change that other women don't experience this Now,
Speaker 1: it's some really good points that you're making and and
Speaker 1: important to see individuals like yourself so that a younger
Speaker 1: generation UM and other women coming into the finance space
Speaker 1: where the banking space can see somebody in the spot
Speaker 1: and aspire to that. UM. Since we have you, we'd
Speaker 1: be crazy not to ask. And what's an uncertain volatile
Speaker 1: market environment, economic environment, recession and no recession? How are
Speaker 1: things looking every day? Is the new look? At the
Speaker 1: market right now. You know, we are an unprecedented financial
Speaker 1: times in the US and across the world, with COVID,
Speaker 1: the changes that we've had, the issues we've had with
Speaker 1: supply chain, to the fastest rising rate environment that anybody
Speaker 1: that's currently in business has ever seen. And so I
Speaker 1: think we just have to continue to look forward and
Speaker 1: look at where we can make progresses in small areas.
Speaker 1: But we have a bumpy couple of years ahead of
Speaker 1: us coming out of where we've been, and whether we're
Speaker 1: going to see a recession or not, there's a lot
Speaker 1: of different opinions on it, but I think you know
Speaker 1: the latest and receive Do you think recession likely this year?
Speaker 1: I do. I think we're gonna have my personal opinions,
Speaker 1: I do think we're going to head into a small
Speaker 1: recession this year. Hopefully it'll it'll be uh, not too
Speaker 1: strong and not too long. But we disinflation issue UM
Speaker 1: is just really stifling us and it has taken too
Speaker 1: long to get it under control just in the last
Speaker 1: thirty seconds that we have. How how small of a recession?
Speaker 1: What would tell you, like what would be the worst
Speaker 1: of it? You know, I actually don't have an answer
Speaker 1: for that I tried to be the best case scenario person,
Speaker 1: so I don't know what the worst cases. I try
Speaker 1: not to go there, although you know we have to
Speaker 1: for running a bank and modeling. But I don't think
Speaker 1: we're going to see a worst case. I think the
Speaker 1: FED has taken a lot of very aggressive action with
Speaker 1: interest rates to make um the bring the inflation under control,
Speaker 1: and they have signaled as well said they're willing to
Speaker 1: take a larger action if needed. So I don't believe
Speaker 1: that we'll have a larger session that doing everything they
Speaker 1: can to prevent that. All right, I really appreciate your time. Hopemachowski,
Speaker 1: chief financial Officer at First Horizon Bank. Joining us via
Speaker 1: zoom you're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch
Speaker 1: us live weekdays from two to five pm Eastern on
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Radio, The Bloomberg Business and and You too. You
Speaker 1: can also listen live to our flagship New York station,
Speaker 1: Just Say Alexa play Roomberg Dirty a story about how
Speaker 1: startups are getting created, are creating what they are doing,
Speaker 1: They're getting creative, I should say, when they are in
Speaker 1: the hunt for crash and for cash. Catch by that
Speaker 1: it's Wednesday that these things happening. It's some day just
Speaker 1: like they're getting creative. I'm getting creative. Um, but some
Speaker 1: of that creativity is raising eyebrows. Well, we got a
Speaker 1: great voice with us. He's quoted in this story, Ken Smith.
Speaker 1: He's from Next Round Capital Partners. He helped start up
Speaker 1: startups obtained financing. He's with us right now in the
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Interactive Broker's studio. Ken, good to have you with us.
Speaker 1: You know, as as we heard Um Charlie going through
Speaker 1: the markets, you were telling us a little bit about
Speaker 1: you know, your impressions of Elon Musk and you know
Speaker 1: how he paid overpaid for tests for Twitter. Excuse me
Speaker 1: ahead of Tesla earnings this afternoon. Um, the environment has
Speaker 1: shifted so much just in the past year. What are
Speaker 1: you seeing in the work that you're doing when you're
Speaker 1: out there helping startups raise money? First, thank you for
Speaker 1: having me. It's pleasure to be here. Um. Yeah, we're
Speaker 1: seeing an environment which is drastically shifted in the last
Speaker 1: twelve months. Particularly, I think UH investors obviously are kind
Speaker 1: of coming off a very very rosy scenario which was
Speaker 1: two thousand twenty one where multiples were sky high and
Speaker 1: people were paying for growth at any cost, and now
Speaker 1: we're back to fundamentals, as they say, and investors are
Speaker 1: really focused on when companies are gonna be profitable, when
Speaker 1: they're gonna be cash break even, and and particularly what
Speaker 1: multiples are they paying now for that future growth given
Speaker 1: interest rate headwinds, the FED and a potential recession. So
Speaker 1: a smarter market today in terms of focusing on fundamentals.
Speaker 1: Where it got a little stupid when there was so
Speaker 1: much cheap money, they got super crazy. Uh, some firms
Speaker 1: and I won't name names, we're doing you know, ten
Speaker 1: deals a week, right, How can you keep that pace
Speaker 1: and and really be doing serious diligence um on these companies?
Speaker 1: So what we're seeing now is really kind of a
Speaker 1: very much a pullback, very much focus on what's going
Speaker 1: to work not only now but in several years from now,
Speaker 1: and durable business models. What I want to ask you, Kenny,
Speaker 1: is that in a market like this, does it create
Speaker 1: companies that will ultimately be your Google's, your Facebook's there,
Speaker 1: I say Twitter, you know, the companies that actually have
Speaker 1: longer legs and sustainability going forward because of the focus
Speaker 1: on fundamentals. Absolutely, you're going to see companies that really
Speaker 1: were sort of cash burning machines that need a venture
Speaker 1: capital to continue growing, right, they could continue to feed losses.
Speaker 1: And a lot of the consumer models if you look
Speaker 1: back at Casper Mattresses, if you look back at Lime
Speaker 1: at Bird, these were ideas that just consumed massive amounts
Speaker 1: of money. The vcs had to continue funding at ever
Speaker 1: raising rounds and ever raising prices. And when that's working
Speaker 1: and money is cheap, it's great. You can run a
Speaker 1: business like that all day long. But when the month,
Speaker 1: when the tide goes out, as Warren Buffett says, you know,
Speaker 1: look out below, right, investors are just not willing to
Speaker 1: fund those losses indefinitely. So what's the environment that exists
Speaker 1: right now in the context of the new companies that
Speaker 1: are out there being created. Are we in a more
Speaker 1: normalized world of you know, I don't know, the nineteen
Speaker 1: nineties perhaps where we see interest rates not at zero right,
Speaker 1: So now we're I believe we're in the sort of
Speaker 1: two thousand nine period called two thousand twenty to two
Speaker 1: thousand eight for the venture capital I p O market
Speaker 1: where everything ground to a halt, and two thousand seven
Speaker 1: was two thousand one. But but what came after that,
Speaker 1: It was like the best time ever to be a
Speaker 1: venture right, And a lot of the venture capitalists hadn't
Speaker 1: seen a two thousand twenty two yet. Remember a lot
Speaker 1: of these firms got started in two thousand and ten,
Speaker 1: two thousand eleven, two thousand twelve. All they knew was
Speaker 1: a bowl market. If you were an employee started working
Speaker 1: for a startup, you got all these options and all
Speaker 1: you saw them is go straight up, straight up, straight up,
Speaker 1: and you never sold a share, and you were the
Speaker 1: smartest person in the world because then if you had
Speaker 1: the I p O the lock up and you were rich,
Speaker 1: and that's all you had to do is just keep
Speaker 1: doing that over and over again. Now venture capitalists are
Speaker 1: starting to have to think like hedgephone managers altho. They
Speaker 1: have to say, you know, Chime was a twenty five
Speaker 1: billion a year ago, and that was it a hundred
Speaker 1: times multiple, and now Chime is trading at ten billion,
Speaker 1: and potentially if it was public down to six billion,
Speaker 1: should I have sold a lot a year ago? Do
Speaker 1: I need to start actually managing a portfolio? Because this
Speaker 1: whole buy and hold thing in the VC world isn't
Speaker 1: gonna work in every environment kind they got lucky and
Speaker 1: it worked for a while, but it's just not gonna
Speaker 1: work in time. One of those startup you know, so
Speaker 1: called neo banks. That's right. So what does this mean
Speaker 1: for startups who do need cash? I mean, Hmma Palmer
Speaker 1: who wrote this story, she's our hedge fund reporter here
Speaker 1: at Bloomberg News. She talked about how startups are having
Speaker 1: to be creative in terms of the hunt for cash.
Speaker 1: So what are they doing, what does that mean? And
Speaker 1: what do they have to promise or what they have
Speaker 1: to do? I think early stage startups, and we defined
Speaker 1: the world by early stage, mid stage companies series C,
Speaker 1: Series D, and then late stage post series E, when
Speaker 1: you really have a business going on. I think a
Speaker 1: lot of what I was talking about in the article
Speaker 1: was companies that have already raised money. They have significant business,
Speaker 1: is going on hundred million, two hundred million, three hundred
Speaker 1: million revenues, but are still burning cash, right, and so
Speaker 1: they have a certain amount of cash and kind of
Speaker 1: two thousand two was sort of a freebee, But there's
Speaker 1: southing twenty two sorry, was a freebee. You raise a
Speaker 1: lot of money in twenty one. You had plenty of
Speaker 1: cash to get through twenty two. Now your whole when
Speaker 1: as a CFO you wake up and this all goes away, right,
Speaker 1: because you don't want to go out and raise money
Speaker 1: at a discount or a fifty percent discount to what
Speaker 1: you did, Hence the down round. Right. Not only that,
Speaker 1: but you've got employees and executives to keep happy, right,
Speaker 1: and if you wipe out their equity, guess what, you've
Speaker 1: got a lot of upset people walking around the office saying, hey,
Speaker 1: what did you do? So this is gonna be the
Speaker 1: interesting part two thousand twenty three and mid part this
Speaker 1: year into two thousand, Rubber is going to meet the road.
Speaker 1: Every CFO is gonna have to say, what's this? Where
Speaker 1: are we going with this? Do I keep growing my
Speaker 1: business or do I dilute my investors and wipe out
Speaker 1: my equity of my employees? Right? And that's gonna be
Speaker 1: the big dilemma. So you see companies like Sneak that
Speaker 1: just did a down round, they got a major free
Speaker 1: pass only down right from their previous round. If you
Speaker 1: can do that, you should do that all day long.
Speaker 1: But I think companies, but Sneak is in a sas
Speaker 1: software high margin business so they can probably get away
Speaker 1: with it. But if your instac cart trying to raise
Speaker 1: money now or go puff, good luck. Yeah, we've seen
Speaker 1: I mean, we've written about the challenge that those companies
Speaker 1: are facing quite a bit in Business Week. So I
Speaker 1: guess my question is about the types of businesses that
Speaker 1: are going to come of age during this period of
Speaker 1: higher rates and you know where the money isn't free anymore,
Speaker 1: that's right. M Are these gonna be just better businesses?
Speaker 1: Are you optimistic? Or is are you? Are you kind
Speaker 1: of very optimistic? You're not almost glad this has happened
Speaker 1: because it's making CFOs and companies actually have to be
Speaker 1: aware of cost, be aware of how much money they're burning,
Speaker 1: of investors money to grow these businesses, thoughtful about hiring
Speaker 1: and hiring and right sizing your organization and not just
Speaker 1: throwing money at problems, because that's what everyone got, punched
Speaker 1: drunk on free money. So if you're just punched drunk
Speaker 1: on free money, you're gonna hire as many people as
Speaker 1: you want. You're going to invest as much money into
Speaker 1: sales and marketing, so you're gonna go after bad product
Speaker 1: ideas and they may or may not work, But what
Speaker 1: do you care there's a VC standing by and wanting
Speaker 1: to give you more money. What are the opportunities? Then,
Speaker 1: the opportunities are in virtual reality. Companies like Andrew the opportunities.
Speaker 1: Although I think it's the defense, the defense try. I
Speaker 1: think companies like company. He's the guy who created oculusts
Speaker 1: sold it to Facebook. Now he's trying to take that.
Speaker 1: And Rill is one of our top requested names obviously,
Speaker 1: and start talk about open ai. But open aiy is
Speaker 1: kind of the new Uh, let's just say darling of
Speaker 1: the private world. Um, and we're going to see a
Speaker 1: shakeout in that world. I think I can that world
Speaker 1: to when Yahoo was the leader in search and then
Speaker 1: Google came in along and actually made it a business, right,
Speaker 1: And so that's what we're kind of seeing with AI
Speaker 1: is who can actually make it into a workable business model. Um.
Speaker 1: We're seeing a lot in logistics and transportation companies like
Speaker 1: flex Sport, and then we're also seeing a lot of
Speaker 1: the sas businesses which do cloud data storage, AI, machine learning,
Speaker 1: data bricks, data robot companies that actually are helping businesses
Speaker 1: be more efficient with very high profit margins in the
Speaker 1: In the interim, he it. Does it also mean that
Speaker 1: companies will go to public sooner rather than later. I
Speaker 1: don't think so. I think we're in a very interesting
Speaker 1: period where investors are willing to pay a certain multiple.
Speaker 1: If you look at public company multiples that are comparable,
Speaker 1: and if you're a private company CFO, you might say,
Speaker 1: you know what, it's probably better to stay private for
Speaker 1: right now. I agree, But because it's a different environment,
Speaker 1: there isn't so much cheap money, it's not going to
Speaker 1: force some companies to have to tap the public markets.
Speaker 1: Do you think there'll be enough out there? I think
Speaker 1: that when companies do start raising money again in the
Speaker 1: private market, if if the appetite is there and they
Speaker 1: can do it at the right price, they're going to
Speaker 1: try to stay private until the market recovers and then
Speaker 1: you can go public at a higher multiple. Remember businesses
Speaker 1: in software that are growing at selling for five times
Speaker 1: multiple the public market. You know a lot of these
Speaker 1: private businesses times more plus. So that trend continues. Because
Speaker 1: it's something that Tim and I talk a lot about.
Speaker 1: It just kind of floors us when we go to
Speaker 1: different conferences. We were at Milk and it was all
Speaker 1: about the private markets that trend continues that the private
Speaker 1: markets are going to continue to fund so much out there.
Speaker 1: Just got about thirty seconds. That's right. Look, that doesn't
Speaker 1: change a lot of the best ideas are the early
Speaker 1: stage ideas vcs. If you're a VC that caught open
Speaker 1: a I, really you're sitting on a hundred times your money.
Speaker 1: That is where the real money is made. You got
Speaker 1: to catch them early enough, though, you know many times
Speaker 1: once they get too late, just like Uberhood raised so
Speaker 1: many financing rounds by the time of one public at
Speaker 1: one down. So you know, you just got to catch
Speaker 1: the timing right. But this is innovation. We're gonna pay
Speaker 1: for it. There's gonna be a bull market again, and
Speaker 1: you know, stay positive and look at fund the medals.
Speaker 1: All right, we certainly will. Ken SMI thank you so much.
Speaker 1: Next round. Capital Partners founder joining us in our Bloomberg
Speaker 1: Interactive studio. Check out him a parm Our Our hedge
Speaker 1: fund reporter at Bloomberg News. Her story talks about exactly
Speaker 1: what can just lay it out for us. You're listening
Speaker 1: to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast, catches live week days
Speaker 1: from two to five pm East here on Bloomberg Radio.
Speaker 1: The Bloomberg Business a band you too. You can also
Speaker 1: listen live to our flagship New York station, Just Say
Speaker 1: Alexa play Bloomberg elve and Dirty. So Elon Musk also
Speaker 1: the subject of this week's cover story, which notes that
Speaker 1: if he has a tragic flaw, isn't his temper or
Speaker 1: his treatment of underlings, or is refused to follow securities laws? Nope,
Speaker 1: it's that. It's he's extremely and painfully unfunny, which is
Speaker 1: kind of funny. That is kind of funny, all right,
Speaker 1: So let's get to it with us. Is Bloomberg Business
Speaker 1: Week colmunist Max Jeffet and Bloomberg News Technology put her
Speaker 1: down a hall. They wrote the story the cover story
Speaker 1: of Business Week. Max is here in our Bloomberg Interactive
Speaker 1: Broker studio. Dana on the phone from San Francisco. Nice timing, guys.
Speaker 1: This is what we are all leaning in on, Danna.
Speaker 1: I'm going to start with you because you know, Ellen,
Speaker 1: I always feel like you know that he for a
Speaker 1: long time could do no wrong to some extent, and
Speaker 1: everybody was all in and then things changed. What happened? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean two was sort of a remarkable year for
Speaker 1: him and for you know, and for all of us
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways. But I mean this is
Speaker 1: a guy who was Time and the f t S
Speaker 1: Man of the Year or Person of the Year one um.
Speaker 1: And then you know, and then in two he bought Twitter,
Speaker 1: and in order to buy Twitter, he sold billions of
Speaker 1: dollars worth of Tesla shares. And then once he took
Speaker 1: the reins at Twitter, he fired everybody and started to
Speaker 1: interact with a pretty like sort of rogues gallery of characters,
Speaker 1: you know, right wing folks, anti Semitic folks, conspiracy theorists,
Speaker 1: and you know, for a long time old school early
Speaker 1: adopters of the Tesla brand, this was very, very alarming.
Speaker 1: And I think what you saw was that because Tesla
Speaker 1: and Ellen are so intertwined, I mean, there is like
Speaker 1: the brands are the same. Basically, there was a real
Speaker 1: erosion of of the Tesla brand, and you know, in
Speaker 1: marketing surveys and just conversations with former employees, in conversations
Speaker 1: with potential Evie buyers, and that was really something that
Speaker 1: Max and I wanted to explore at this kind of
Speaker 1: pivotal moment for the company. A Max, come on in here,
Speaker 1: because I was, you know, I was having this conversation
Speaker 1: with a friend recently who has thought too Tesla's and
Speaker 1: he was I was saying, what do you think of
Speaker 1: all the stuff that Elon Musk does? And he was like,
Speaker 1: you know what, I don't care what he's got and
Speaker 1: musta He's like, I don't care. You know the CEO
Speaker 1: of Disney does. I don't care what the CEO of
Speaker 1: you know these other companies that I said, you know
Speaker 1: what though, But the thing is with Tesla and Musk,
Speaker 1: like the two are inextricably bound to one another. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean when we talk about Tesla's brand, it's it's
Speaker 1: different from talking about Fords brand or or Chrysler's brand
Speaker 1: or something like that. As as Danna was saying, that's
Speaker 1: that's there are two reasons for that. One is this
Speaker 1: kind of Musk as the centerpiece. You know, for years
Speaker 1: we talked about how amazing it was that, you know,
Speaker 1: Tesla didn't spend money on advertising, and it's been a
Speaker 1: huge part of the way this company finds people. And
Speaker 1: then the second thing is it's it's still a very
Speaker 1: strong brand. It's you know, Musk is is doing things
Speaker 1: that are hurting a company um and that that sort
Speaker 1: of as Danna said, like longtime investors, some um, longtime
Speaker 1: fans have found uncomfortable. But it's not like there aren't fans.
Speaker 1: And you know, yesterday while we're listening to the earnings, right,
Speaker 1: Tesla put the numbers out there sort of okay, there
Speaker 1: was a sort of beat on revenue and it's kind
Speaker 1: of a mixed bag, and the markets weren't doing anything.
Speaker 1: And then Musk gets up during the call and says,
Speaker 1: you know, we might we we said we're gonna make
Speaker 1: one point eight million cars, but we just might make
Speaker 1: two million cars, you know, And the stock went berserk
Speaker 1: at that point. Um. And that's and that's where it
Speaker 1: had this huge jump. And so the thing is when
Speaker 1: Musk still does kind of like the Musk thing um,
Speaker 1: which is, you know, talk about how great testas and
Speaker 1: how many cars are gonna make and make these like
Speaker 1: wild problem. The investors like that and they're still going
Speaker 1: for it. It's when he starts talking to Cat turn
Speaker 1: to pick on one of his um, you know, interloculars
Speaker 1: on Twitter that people start to feel uncomfortable. So it's
Speaker 1: it's not like there's it's not I can't walk back
Speaker 1: from It's not like he can't come back from some
Speaker 1: of this damage. But but there has been a shift
Speaker 1: and and it's reflected in the stock price. Even though
Speaker 1: it's gone up um today, it's still you know, half
Speaker 1: of what it was, more than worse than half what
Speaker 1: it was, you know, before this Twitter uh stuff started, Danna.
Speaker 1: You know, it is kind of remarkable some of the
Speaker 1: things that he does and some of the investigations that
Speaker 1: are happening. He was up on you know, this whole week,
Speaker 1: right on the witness stand um talking this is not
Speaker 1: typically what you want of a CEO of a publicly
Speaker 1: health company, you know, does he not get it? Like?
Speaker 1: What is it about Ellen? Like he's got to be
Speaker 1: seeing the headlines, the news, He's got to see the
Speaker 1: stock drop, Like does he not understand that some of
Speaker 1: these things he does is not so good? I mean,
Speaker 1: Elon reads everything about himself. I mean I think he
Speaker 1: you know, he's sort of noticed it, probably gets notifications
Speaker 1: for himself on Twitter. He read our story, he read
Speaker 1: our cover story. But but I think that he's gotten
Speaker 1: a late whatever his stick is, he has gotten away
Speaker 1: with it for a very long time and it works
Speaker 1: for him in the way, you know, in the way
Speaker 1: that it works for President Trump. I mean, like him
Speaker 1: or hate him, people see him as an unvarnished authentic character.
Speaker 1: I mean, he says what he thinks. Sometimes he's rude,
Speaker 1: you know, He's called people he called like the public
Speaker 1: county health officials fascists. On earnings calls, he told analysts
Speaker 1: that their questions were boring and bone headed. Um, he
Speaker 1: thinks that Joe Biden is a damp sock puck that
Speaker 1: I mean, and he he says when he thinks, and
Speaker 1: people like that. They like that authenticity. They respond to
Speaker 1: that um and it keeps him in the news, and
Speaker 1: it keeps him in the conversation. And even if he's
Speaker 1: in the conversation for a bad reason, he's still in
Speaker 1: the conversation. I mean, I think if you interviewed a
Speaker 1: bunch of people on the streets in Manhattan and asked
Speaker 1: him who's the current CEO of gm Ford, Chrysler or BMW, Like,
Speaker 1: I don't know if they would know who who was,
Speaker 1: but like people know who Elon Musk is and that helps,
Speaker 1: you know, ultimately, I think it helps him. He max
Speaker 1: um to that to that end, and what Dana was
Speaker 1: talking about, it doesn't always go well for elon Musk
Speaker 1: what happened at Dave Chappelle show recently? Oh yeah, this
Speaker 1: was the way we opened the story. And and it
Speaker 1: was I think Danna's idea just because it was such
Speaker 1: a contrast from kind of the the response that Musk
Speaker 1: normally gets when he's in front of a crowd. You know,
Speaker 1: he gets up there. Dave Chappelle uh performance in San
Speaker 1: Francisco sold out crowd, giant arena show. You know, Dave Chappelle,
Speaker 1: of course is a controversial comedian. You know a lot
Speaker 1: of his act is about, you know, railing on you know,
Speaker 1: the dangers of woke culture and things like that. You know.
Speaker 1: In other words, these are people who you would think
Speaker 1: would be fans of Musk's kind of right wing, transgressive
Speaker 1: Twitter stuff, and they weren't. They were booing him. And
Speaker 1: just seeing that kind of turn, I mean, that's that's
Speaker 1: where we got kind of got the idea to to
Speaker 1: write the story because just like seeing that turn was
Speaker 1: pretty dramatic and and and it really and yeah, like
Speaker 1: Musk has a big fan base. Um, they love him,
Speaker 1: just as Dana is saying. On the other hand, Uh,
Speaker 1: it's not clear how much more growth. Tesla has that
Speaker 1: they need to grow to be so much bigger, so
Speaker 1: much bigger to justify the current valuation. Uh, Danny, you
Speaker 1: did say he read the story. Did he respond to
Speaker 1: you guys? Right, Well, I'll let more, I'll let ahead
Speaker 1: white a response. I mean, it wasn't like a direct response,
Speaker 1: but he like someone quote tweeted it and then go ahead,
Speaker 1: Musk and I was talking about the story with like
Speaker 1: a handful of like doge coin influencers, dogecoin being his
Speaker 1: favorite cryptocurrency, and they were kind of saying like, no,
Speaker 1: you really are funny, Ellen, and he was responding like
Speaker 1: thank you, so so not exactly a direct response, but
Speaker 1: but certainly talking about it. And then on the earnings called,
Speaker 1: there was a very interesting moment where an investor asked,
Speaker 1: you know, what you know about the sort of potential
Speaker 1: brand damage, citing a poll that we cited by you gov,
Speaker 1: which is a you know, scientific pollster, and Musk essentially said,
Speaker 1: you know, you gov, schmoogov I got a hundred and
Speaker 1: twenty seven million Twitter followers and um. And it was
Speaker 1: a really interesting moment because, first of all, a little
Speaker 1: bit of a window into what his strategy is or
Speaker 1: you know, if you're trying to find a strategy with Twitter.
Speaker 1: It's like, hey, I'm out there, I'm in the news.
Speaker 1: Just like Danna said, people are talking about it, so
Speaker 1: it must be good. Um. It also was a bit
Speaker 1: of a turn about from the way Musk was talking
Speaker 1: about Twitter, you know several months ago, when it was
Speaker 1: just like, oh, these followers are fake, it can't trust
Speaker 1: him and so on. So super interesting moment. And I
Speaker 1: read that also has a response to to the story, Well,
Speaker 1: it's an incredible story, run out of time. We can
Speaker 1: talk forever on it. It does make me wonder, God,
Speaker 1: if he didn't buy Twitter, would we still be? I
Speaker 1: don't know where would we be? But who knows? Um, guys,
Speaker 1: we gotta run cover story of Bloomberg Business. Wee gets
Speaker 1: a killer Bloomberg Business Week calumnist Max Chaffman and Bloomberg
Speaker 1: News Technology for Danna Hall. They wrote it. So check
Speaker 1: it out the new issue on newstands, online and on
Speaker 1: the Bloomberg You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast.
Speaker 1: Catch us live weekdays from two to five pm Easter
Speaker 1: on Bloomberg Radio, the Bloomberg Business app, and and you too.
Speaker 1: You can also listen live to our flagship New York station,
Speaker 1: just say Alexa, play Bloomberg Elvenerdi. When you think about
Speaker 1: the best watches in the world, you probably think of
Speaker 1: brands such as Rolex and Patech, Philippe some others as well.
Speaker 1: There is, though, a group of indie watchmakers that are
Speaker 1: taking the luxury market by storm, thanks in part to
Speaker 1: a supply crunch affecting some of those top brands. That
Speaker 1: is the subject of the opening story in the Pursuit
Speaker 1: section of the magazine this week, and much of this
Speaker 1: section is actually dedicated to so called time pieces, as
Speaker 1: we call them here at Bloomberg. Pursuits we do we
Speaker 1: have with us are in house expert in a super
Speaker 1: fan on the subject, Pursues editor Chris Rouser, he knows
Speaker 1: a thing or two about watches. Also joining us as
Speaker 1: Bloomberg News reporter Andy Hoffman, he covers retail and the consumer.
Speaker 1: He's based in Geneva. So, Chris, is it you know?
Speaker 1: I think of you as the Bloomberg watch guy, But
Speaker 1: is it possible that Andy actually knows more about watches
Speaker 1: than you do? It's I I almost hate to admit
Speaker 1: it if I wasn't so proud of him. But Andy
Speaker 1: actually is the really the true watch industry expert. UM.
Speaker 1: You know, he's based in Geneva and he covers the
Speaker 1: Swiss watchmaking industry. There's a lot going on and it's
Speaker 1: been a very fascinating beat in the past five years
Speaker 1: because this industry has really exploded, which is why we're
Speaker 1: doing this story now. As you said, all of these
Speaker 1: major watch brands are having supply chain issues. They're not
Speaker 1: increasing production as demand has increased, and so people are
Speaker 1: turning to other, less famous brands and they're learning a
Speaker 1: lot more. And you know, you almost don't want to
Speaker 1: put it in the context of it being hard to
Speaker 1: get a role X or a Ptex, so you're looking
Speaker 1: at the others brands because these other brands are actually
Speaker 1: very interesting on their own and they're very accomplished UM,
Speaker 1: and we love highlighting them. Yeah. And it's funny because
Speaker 1: when I first started, Oh, I'm like, oh, they're gonna
Speaker 1: be less expensive but really cool and sorry, you know,
Speaker 1: I kind of kidded at the earlier with him. I'm like,
Speaker 1: we could even afford them. He's like, no, we can.
Speaker 1: There are something that you can all right, Andy Kamani
Speaker 1: in on this UM, you know, you and Chris were
Speaker 1: talking about this coverage. Tell us about these what we're
Speaker 1: calling indie brands. Yeah, well, I mean Chris is absolutely right.
Speaker 1: I mean what we've seen, you know, during the pandemic,
Speaker 1: you know, consumers in particular US consumers sort of fell
Speaker 1: back in love with mechanical watches, most of which are Swiss,
Speaker 1: and UM that created great demand for you know, the classics,
Speaker 1: the well known brands like Rolex or the marpige uh
Speaker 1: protect Phi, Leap and into you know in those brands,
Speaker 1: and they just don't make a lot and and the
Speaker 1: demand for role X is so high even though they
Speaker 1: make a million watches a year that these independent brands
Speaker 1: have been able to sort of jump in and fill
Speaker 1: that void. And also people were spending more time online,
Speaker 1: they were doing their research much better, um, and they
Speaker 1: became more exposed to these brands, and so brands like Ming,
Speaker 1: which is a very interesting brand. It's only you know
Speaker 1: horology Ming, it's only uh five years old. It's actually
Speaker 1: based in Kuala Lumpour. The watches are Swiss made and
Speaker 1: they're making these really interesting sort of groundbreaking watches that
Speaker 1: use you know, luminescence and light and design and sort
Speaker 1: of very interesting ways. They only sell them on their website,
Speaker 1: but you know, these watches are being sold at auction
Speaker 1: here in Geneva, you know, alongside protect for leaps, Odomarpige's
Speaker 1: and Rolex. Now I'm really intrigued by this thirty six
Speaker 1: year old Ming teen. You know, you think he's you know,
Speaker 1: a watch guy, but then you write that he's not
Speaker 1: just that. He's a photographer, he's a designer and a
Speaker 1: private equity guy. Who is he? Yeah, yeah, he was.
Speaker 1: He worked in private equity for a couple of the
Speaker 1: big firms. Uh, worked for some Asian money managers. Um
Speaker 1: graduated from Oxford, you know, in his teens. And obviously
Speaker 1: he's a really bright guy. Um and also you know,
Speaker 1: artistically gifted. I mean he's a great photographer and has
Speaker 1: always been a watch collector, is what he's told us.
Speaker 1: And you know, at a certain point, Um, he was
Speaker 1: collecting all these watches and he said, you know, and
Speaker 1: it is only you know, five or six years ago,
Speaker 1: and and and he said, you know, I'm going to
Speaker 1: give us a try. And so uh he and and
Speaker 1: a few colleagues and fellow collectors started Harold jer Ming
Speaker 1: and and um They've done extraordinarily well. I mean they started,
Speaker 1: I think their first watch was selling for around nine
Speaker 1: hundred Swiss francs. Now most of their watches self for
Speaker 1: around five thousand francs. Um, some felt self for ten thousand,
Speaker 1: and and they're even making watches that sell on their
Speaker 1: site at retail for twenty thousand, sixty thousand francs. Very rare.
Speaker 1: Chris start with you know what you guys called, you know,
Speaker 1: the one that's like a blue chip short thing, um,
Speaker 1: and I think this is is it? F P Jorn? Yeah? Andy,
Speaker 1: do you want to talk about I've loved to Strand
Speaker 1: for a while. Yeah, I mean f P Jorn is
Speaker 1: sort of the big heavy hitter, blue chip independent watchmaker
Speaker 1: based here in Geneva, French born. Um, you know, just
Speaker 1: makes extraordinarily complicated, exquisitely finished UH watches, which now you
Speaker 1: know he's the brand was founded in the nineties. He
Speaker 1: started producing watches under the Fijn brand and I think
Speaker 1: ninety nine. Now these watches sell alongside PTech UH and
Speaker 1: odom RP Gay at the auctions well over you know,
Speaker 1: into well into the millions. Um. I mean they're just
Speaker 1: you know, he is an extraordinary watchmaker. He has an
Speaker 1: extreme talent, and you know, the watchworld has slowly but
Speaker 1: early woken up to this. And now he's, you know,
Speaker 1: at this sort of pinnacle of the game. I want
Speaker 1: to talk about this time piece. It looks like two
Speaker 1: watch faces are conjoined, or a logical machine number one. Indeed,
Speaker 1: that's that's Max Booster, who is all on his own
Speaker 1: in terms of of the way that you know him
Speaker 1: and his company which is called MB and F. Max
Speaker 1: Booster and friends have decided to approach watchmaking. We got
Speaker 1: to spend some time with him. Max Booster is clearly
Speaker 1: an artist, and he surrounds himself with artists and and
Speaker 1: they are making what they feel as art um for
Speaker 1: your wrist um. And so you know, he makes watches
Speaker 1: that look like panda bears, He makes watches that look
Speaker 1: like frogs. He makes watches that look like spaceships, and
Speaker 1: you know inside them is extraordinary horology. Uh. And yet
Speaker 1: you know, the designs that case shapes are like nothing
Speaker 1: anyone has ever seen. He's watches are self for well
Speaker 1: over a hundred thousand francs um, you know, but he
Speaker 1: also makes some watches that are slightly more traditional, although
Speaker 1: nothing that Max Booster does as traditional. But last year
Speaker 1: he uh he and a fellow watchmaker who's you know,
Speaker 1: one of the friends, a guy named Stephen McDonald from
Speaker 1: from from Northern Ireland who designed the movement and the complication,
Speaker 1: made a what's called a sequential chronograph, which is basically
Speaker 1: two chronographs on the same watch, um running you know,
Speaker 1: through the through the same movement, and it allows you
Speaker 1: to do all these things with one chronograph on your
Speaker 1: risk that you you know, just wasn't possible before. I mean,
Speaker 1: they're really you know, pushing the bounds, doing new things,
Speaker 1: and they're being awarded by the industry with um the
Speaker 1: Grand Prix, the Horology, the Genev g PhD Awards. The
Speaker 1: Max Boosters is the you know, a prime example of
Speaker 1: the wider watch public waking up to these independent makers
Speaker 1: and it used to be just for the watch geeks
Speaker 1: and the freak and now everybody knows about a chronograph
Speaker 1: is a timer by the way, so that you can
Speaker 1: do a lot of different things with that watch. I
Speaker 1: remember when I started reporting on watches almost ten years ago, uh,
Speaker 1: and we learned about that. I learned about this brand
Speaker 1: and it was not like and he said it was
Speaker 1: not something that people knew about. Only only watch geeks
Speaker 1: knew about it. And now now these things are much
Speaker 1: more in the mainstream and lots and lots more people
Speaker 1: are lining up to buy them. Andy, we can't see
Speaker 1: you right now, but Chris is wearing an Apple watch
Speaker 1: because you're in Switzerland. Okay, what are you wearing on
Speaker 1: your wrist? And what do you think of Chris's Apple Watch?
Speaker 1: First of all, Apple, Apple watches a very interesting and
Speaker 1: and and and clearly carefully designed watch them. I'm wearing
Speaker 1: a Swiss brand called North Caine UH, their g M
Speaker 1: T watch. I think we actually wrote about it UM
Speaker 1: in December um uh and I just actually visited them today.
Speaker 1: Very interesting and that's another independent brand and UM nor
Speaker 1: Caine what they are is basically making pretty classic watches,
Speaker 1: but they're making you know, and they're an independent brand, UM.
Speaker 1: But they're well, they have great distribution. They're about five
Speaker 1: years old and their watches are now available in the US, Switzerland,
Speaker 1: Japan and they're in that three you know that two
Speaker 1: thousand to five thousand UM frank or dollar range, which
Speaker 1: is actually UM used to be quite crowded, and now
Speaker 1: you know that The trend in the industry is for
Speaker 1: everybody you know like Omega and everybody in you know
Speaker 1: brands like ours, another independent brand to move up in price,
Speaker 1: and so there's a vacuum or avoid there um for
Speaker 1: reasonably priced watches. That's Bloomberg seatsator Chris Rouser, along with
Speaker 1: Bloomberg News reporter Andy Hoffman joining us from Geneva. You're
Speaker 1: listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us live
Speaker 1: week days from two to five pm Eastern on Bloomberg Radio,
Speaker 1: the Bloomberg Business sam Band you two. You can also
Speaker 1: listen live to our flagship New York station, Just Say
Speaker 1: Alexa play Bloomberg E Love and Dirty. Well. The companies
Speaker 1: that we talk about each and every day, you know,
Speaker 1: they begin as ideas, maybe in a garage and Silicon Valley,
Speaker 1: or perhaps in a rented office space in Alburquerque. But
Speaker 1: from that idea to an actual functioning business can be
Speaker 1: a rocky road. Tim. Yeah, you gotta beg investors for money,
Speaker 1: You've got to manage your growing workforce, you gotta figure
Speaker 1: out how to scale, and ultimately, if you're lucky, you'll
Speaker 1: get to a successful exit, whether it's an I P
Speaker 1: O or an acquisition. But it is a tough slog.
Speaker 1: If only there were a handbook for entrepreneurs, there actually are.
Speaker 1: Next guest says, he has written one, Ory Levine. He
Speaker 1: knows a thing or two about building a company. Co
Speaker 1: founder of Ways, which, as you know, sold to Google
Speaker 1: for one and one point fifteen billion back in he
Speaker 1: was an investor, and move It, which Intel bought for
Speaker 1: one billion back in. Tim He's got a brand new
Speaker 1: book out. It's called fall in Love with the Problem
Speaker 1: Not the Lotion, a handbook for entrepreneurs, he joins us
Speaker 1: on the phone from New York City. Or how are
Speaker 1: you good? Good to have you with us. Thank you,
Speaker 1: I'm excellent in yourself. We're doing well. Thanks, We're very pleased.
Speaker 1: Congratulations on the book as well. All right, um, I'm
Speaker 1: wondering about, you know, starting starting this idea in terms of,
Speaker 1: like you know, thinking about not just this handbook, but
Speaker 1: about your own journey as an entrepreneur. What does it
Speaker 1: mean to to fall in love with a problem. So essentially,
Speaker 1: you know, when you fall in love with the problem,
Speaker 1: the problem remains your north star of your journey, right,
Speaker 1: and when you have a north start, then at the
Speaker 1: end to stay, you're less likely to do deviations from
Speaker 1: it and more likely to actually get to your destination.
Speaker 1: But there is a matter major part of it, right
Speaker 1: because the story that you're going to tell when he's
Speaker 1: associated with the problem is way better than the story
Speaker 1: that he's associated with this solution. If we will be
Speaker 1: here in two thousand and seven, I would tell you
Speaker 1: that I'm going to build an AI based groutsource navigation system.
Speaker 1: Then you would say, yeah, right, but you don't really care, well,
Speaker 1: what was the problem. What was the problem though that
Speaker 1: you were trying to solve in two thousand seven, I'm
Speaker 1: going to help you to avoid traffic gims? All right,
Speaker 1: that's it worked, and then you do care you know
Speaker 1: every time, and I am an all in fan on it,
Speaker 1: and you know, um, I will say. My husband's like
Speaker 1: kind of laughs at me because when it's like there's
Speaker 1: a car on the road, I'm like, I hit it,
Speaker 1: and I you know, could you read it? You've got
Speaker 1: in the world to buy in and help you in
Speaker 1: this process process. Is there something that in society, um
Speaker 1: or that you think though has changed. We talked so
Speaker 1: much about the sharing economy, the sharing society. Is there
Speaker 1: something different that enabled ways to be created that could
Speaker 1: have been created maybe years ago, beyond the technology component
Speaker 1: of it. You know, I think that in general people
Speaker 1: are um like to help each other, right, and so
Speaker 1: we are. In general people are good and if you
Speaker 1: create them the opportunity, then they will be happy to share.
Speaker 1: They will behaving to great value for others. And the
Speaker 1: magic of ways is that we the drivers are helping
Speaker 1: the rest of the drivers to avoid traffic chams and
Speaker 1: to know what's going on on the road. And essentially
Speaker 1: it's sort of a social network of drivers that we
Speaker 1: are helping the rest of the drivers. What's a problem
Speaker 1: in today's world that needs to be solved? Besides that
Speaker 1: my puppy needs to be trained, I wish there's probably
Speaker 1: an act for that. At the end of the day,
Speaker 1: there are a lot of problems because we when we
Speaker 1: think of different issues. And by the way, when we
Speaker 1: started ways, you know, traffic jams today are more severe
Speaker 1: than they were when we started ways and we actually
Speaker 1: were scheduled or we our mission was to help drivers
Speaker 1: to avoid traffic. Terms of traffic chances, they are a
Speaker 1: bit more severe, right, and so we have done we
Speaker 1: are not done with addressing mobility and movies actually did
Speaker 1: a better job in addressing mobility by making public transportation easier. Um,
Speaker 1: but we're still not done. And you know, one of
Speaker 1: my startups is trying to address parking because it's some
Speaker 1: major issues. And many of my startups, which one of them,
Speaker 1: is trying to address a different problem. I am curious
Speaker 1: how you look at some of the companies that were
Speaker 1: once startups but are now behemous in the technology space
Speaker 1: but are having a tough time a k, Facebook, now Meta, Tesla, Twitter, Like,
Speaker 1: how do you look at them? Because just because your
Speaker 1: startup in it and people can be excited and you
Speaker 1: can do well for a while, it doesn't necessarily mean
Speaker 1: you have legs. But how do you look at some
Speaker 1: of these companies somebody who's created companies and companies with legs.
Speaker 1: So so let me ask you the following, right, and
Speaker 1: and this is very league, Um, how fast the world
Speaker 1: is changing? Right? Google and Amazon and Netflix are about
Speaker 1: twenty something years old, right, and then Testla and Facebook
Speaker 1: and in Twitter and high Airbnb are less than many
Speaker 1: years old. They were amazing entrepreneurs at the beginning that
Speaker 1: had a mission to change the world, and in their
Speaker 1: journey they have made the world a way better place. Right,
Speaker 1: just imagine that we will have a time machine and
Speaker 1: I will send you back fifteen years into two thousands
Speaker 1: and seven and two thousand, name right, just before we
Speaker 1: started with And that means that I'm going to take
Speaker 1: away your iPhone in ways and Uber and Netflix and
Speaker 1: and pretty much everything that you're using every day. It's
Speaker 1: unclear that we will survive. So when we create a
Speaker 1: solution to a real problem, it's guaranteed that we are
Speaker 1: creating value. And when we create value, we are likely
Speaker 1: to become successful. Now, whether or not we are looking
Speaker 1: at the valuations that were year in the last couple
Speaker 1: of years or the valuations today, it doesn't really make
Speaker 1: the difference in the value that those companies have created
Speaker 1: and in the goodness that they have created. You know,
Speaker 1: there was the saying that companies oftentimes, like in you know,
Speaker 1: before the pandemic, you'd see startups get ridiculous funding rounds
Speaker 1: and they were in search of a problem to solve.
Speaker 1: What's what's one company that you saw a startup that
Speaker 1: you saw that you passed funding on because you said,
Speaker 1: wait a second, this is not they're solving a problem.
Speaker 1: So so most of my startups are actually self made. Right,
Speaker 1: so I was looking at the specific problem and then
Speaker 1: find the right team, or or maybe the team came
Speaker 1: to me very early phase, right, so way before they
Speaker 1: even started, which a problem that they would like to solve,
Speaker 1: and I basically say, this is a problem worth solving.
Speaker 1: And so my recommendation will be, think of a problem
Speaker 1: that is worth solving, a big problem, something that the
Speaker 1: world will become a better place if you acquested, and
Speaker 1: then ask yourself who has this problem? Now, if you
Speaker 1: happen to be the only person on the planet with
Speaker 1: this problem, then I would say, you know what Goat
Speaker 1: was shrinking, It's gonna be a page and fast then
Speaker 1: building a startup. But if a lot of people actually
Speaker 1: have this problem, that what you really want to do
Speaker 1: next is go and speak with those people. Yeah, you
Speaker 1: can understand their perception of the problem, and only then
Speaker 1: go and build a solution. Now, even if you follow
Speaker 1: this pass in your solution works, right, it's actually guaranteed
Speaker 1: that you're creating value. Well, in the essence of all
Speaker 1: of all startups is to figure out what is the
Speaker 1: value that we are creating? Got it? Or we have
Speaker 1: to leave it there? Or Levine co founder Ways his
Speaker 1: new book, fall in Love with the Problem, Not the Solution,
Speaker 1: a handbook for entrepreneur something he knows a lot about.
Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg. This is the Bloomberg Business Week podcast,
Speaker 1: available on Apple, Spotify, and anywhere else you get your podcast.
Speaker 1: Listen live each weekday is starting at two pm Eastern
Speaker 1: on Bloomberg dot Com, the I Heart Radio app, tune In,
Speaker 1: and the Bloomberg Business Had. You can so watch us
Speaker 1: live on Bloomberg Quicktake every weekday on YouTube and always
Speaker 1: on the Bloomberg terminal.