Speaker 1: Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties,
Speaker 1: the podcast where we talk through some of the big
Speaker 1: life changes and transitions of our twenties and what they
Speaker 1: mean for our psychology.
Speaker 2: Hello everybody, or welcome back to the show. Welcome back
Speaker 2: to the podcast, new listeners, old listeners. Wherever you are
Speaker 2: in the world, it is so great to have you
Speaker 2: here back for another episode as we, of course break
Speaker 2: down the psychology of our twenties. If our twenties could
Speaker 2: be summarized in any way, I think we could best
Speaker 2: describe them as the decade of transition. So much about
Speaker 2: who we are, what we like, our environment, our identity,
Speaker 2: our relationships as well are in this state of flux,
Speaker 2: and a lot of that is caused by the very
Speaker 2: concrete mind stones we face. And a huge one for
Speaker 2: those of us who went on to go to college
Speaker 2: or university is graduation. For me, when I was at university,
Speaker 2: it's still very much felt like an extension of my
Speaker 2: high school and teenage years, and adulthood was kind of
Speaker 2: creeping up into the picture on the sidelines. And even
Speaker 2: though I had a job, even though I was in
Speaker 2: what felt like a very adult relationship, and I had bills.
Speaker 2: UNI was this weird vacuum where I still felt like
Speaker 2: I had a lot of permission to figure things out
Speaker 2: and be slightly chaotic. But the further you get into it,
Speaker 2: the more, like I said, adult life creeps in. And
Speaker 2: then suddenly you've just blinked and you were walking across
Speaker 2: the stage and you were getting your diploma, And it
Speaker 2: kind of feels like at that moment you should have
Speaker 2: all the answers, or at least a few more than
Speaker 2: you had when you first started. But for so many
Speaker 2: of us that is the exact opposite. We have no
Speaker 2: idea what we want to do. We feel increasingly lonely,
Speaker 2: and sometimes we even get caught up in the nostalgia
Speaker 2: of those years and what they offered. And I really
Speaker 2: want to talk about it today, So I'm bringing on
Speaker 2: a wonderful guest to discuss the psychology of the post
Speaker 2: graduation blues. Welcome, Liz. Tell the audience about yourself a
Speaker 2: little bit.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me. It's so nice
Speaker 3: to talk with you today. Yes, I am a therapist
Speaker 3: in the Washington, DC area, and I'm the author of
Speaker 3: the book. This book is cheaper than therapy, A nonsense
Speaker 3: guide to improving your mental health. And I work with
Speaker 3: a lot of young people in their twenties who are
Speaker 3: just getting out of college and entering the world, and
Speaker 3: you know, they're coming to this exciting place Washington, d C.
Speaker 3: But it's not always that easy.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. I can absolutely imagine like Washington, DC especially,
Speaker 2: I feel like a lot of the people who would
Speaker 2: be going there would be so ambitious as well.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, yeah. So I work with so many incredible people
Speaker 3: who are smart and ambitious, but these same qualities can
Speaker 3: I can also be challenging when you come to a
Speaker 3: place like DC where there's so many different options of
Speaker 3: things to do and it's hard to kind of figure
Speaker 3: out what your niches and where you want to go.
Speaker 3: And so I feel really privileged to be able to
Speaker 3: work with with so many amazing clients to be able
Speaker 3: to talk about.
Speaker 2: Some of these issues. And you know what I find
Speaker 2: really really valuable about that is, like, I'm sure there
Speaker 2: are like some smart cookies in Washington who are like
Speaker 2: ready to take on politics in the world, and the
Speaker 2: fact that what we're talking about today still comes up
Speaker 2: is just a real testament to how universal this is
Speaker 2: and what we're talking about is the post graduation blues.
Speaker 2: Can you kind of speak to what that actually is?
Speaker 2: I feel like it's in the name, but maybe you
Speaker 2: can give a bit more color to it.
Speaker 3: Right, Absolutely, So, in my training as a therapist, I
Speaker 3: have a lot of experience in working with the grief
Speaker 3: and loss and breathment, so I often look at the
Speaker 3: post graduation blues through the lens of loss. The loss.
Speaker 3: So grief is a natural reaction to anything that you
Speaker 3: cherish or anything that you love. And for a lot
Speaker 3: of us, going to college and going to university, I mean,
Speaker 3: it's a really amazing experience where with peers, we get
Speaker 3: to talk about big ideas, we get to learn about
Speaker 3: really interesting things, and have all these new experiences and
Speaker 3: live in this area where there's a lot of options
Speaker 3: for exploring hobbies and social interaction and all of these things.
Speaker 3: So you know, it's for many of us, not to
Speaker 3: say that there aren't challenges, but for many of us
Speaker 3: it's it's such a good experience and then all of
Speaker 3: a sudden after graduation, we're leaving that behind, and that's
Speaker 3: a real loss. And anytime you have changed plus loss,
Speaker 3: chances are you're going to experience some feelings of grief.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. Absolutely, And it's the sense of like emptiness,
Speaker 2: right like you cherished, as you said, something so highly
Speaker 2: and it may not have been a person or even
Speaker 2: anything material, but just like a state of being like
Speaker 2: a time in your life that felt so free and
Speaker 2: so exciting. And I think like a big reason why
Speaker 2: we experience like post graduation blues is just like it's
Speaker 2: just this sense of like time is moving on and
Speaker 2: I have to change with that. So what are someone
Speaker 2: like the big feelings to like define this transition.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, so grief can involve things like so grief. Sometimes
Speaker 3: people think that grief is an emotion, but grief isn't
Speaker 3: actually an emotion. Grief is a whole range of feelings,
Speaker 3: So it could evolve sadness, disappointment, regrets, frustration, irritability, numbness,
Speaker 3: So it can grief can really be a roller coaster,
Speaker 3: and this roller coaster is pretty common in the post
Speaker 3: graduation blues. You know, one day, you might feel like
Speaker 3: you have it all together and you're excited about your
Speaker 3: future and you're excited about the possibilities. You know, the
Speaker 3: next day you might be feeling a lot of anxiety
Speaker 3: because you're unsure of when you're going to get a job,
Speaker 3: or how you're going to pay off debt from university,
Speaker 3: or who you're going to live with. So so it
Speaker 3: can really feel unsettling because it is this writing, this
Speaker 3: roller coaster of emotions.
Speaker 2: And I love that metaphor because that is exactly how
Speaker 2: I felt when I first graduated Union. And it's like
Speaker 2: it was a while ago, but I just remember one
Speaker 2: day I would wake up and be like, oh my gosh,
Speaker 2: like I am so young, I'm so excited for my future.
Speaker 2: I could do anything. And then the next day I'd
Speaker 2: be like, I'm absolutely paralyzed by the fact that I
Speaker 2: do not have this big it out and everyone around
Speaker 2: me does. Do you think that like that comparison kind
Speaker 2: of plays a role.
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, you know, because every time we talk to
Speaker 3: someone else, you know, we're not getting the whole picture.
Speaker 3: If you see someone post something on LinkedIn or social
Speaker 3: media or Instagram or wherever, you know, you're you're only
Speaker 3: seeing a very small snap shot to that person's life.
Speaker 3: And what you're seeing like might look incredible and amazing,
Speaker 3: but chances are there's so many other factors. And I
Speaker 3: talk to a lot of clients. And some of these
Speaker 3: clients from the outside seem like they have the perfect
Speaker 3: job and the perfect life. But that doesn't mean that
Speaker 3: everything feels perfect for them.
Speaker 2: No. I speak about this so much and it seems
Speaker 2: so obvious. Right If I sat down with somebody a
Speaker 2: friend of mine, and said, hey, did you know that,
Speaker 2: like what you see on social media isn't real, they'd
Speaker 2: be like, yeah, of course, Gemma, of course I know that.
Speaker 2: But really actually think about it in like the deep
Speaker 2: parts of yourself, like really hold that information, because it's
Speaker 2: very easy to be like, yeah, that's not real, but
Speaker 2: do you actually believe it? Do you actually believe it
Speaker 2: to the point where you are no longer comparing yourself
Speaker 2: to it? And you know, again back to my experience,
Speaker 2: like LinkedIn was like my was enemy number one to
Speaker 2: me when I was job hunting when I was trying
Speaker 2: to sort things out. Because if the other component of
Speaker 2: social media and LinkedIn and those sites is that it
Speaker 2: is about self promotion, right right, The whole premise is
Speaker 2: to look your best because people want to look their
Speaker 2: best for their friends and for people they know, but
Speaker 2: also for like future connections and like, you know, future bosses.
Speaker 2: So there is like this whole aspect of it that
Speaker 2: is performative, and we just don't see it right.
Speaker 3: Absolutely. We see like the perfectly touched up headshot and
Speaker 3: the you know, recent job title and all of these things,
Speaker 3: and we're not we're not seeing the struggles that it
Speaker 3: took to get there or the whole picture behind the seeds.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and bringing it back to like postgraduation, I feel
Speaker 2: like it's this huge sometimes like separation between a lot
Speaker 2: of a lot of people having some part of their
Speaker 2: future have sorted out or at least seeming like they do,
Speaker 2: and then there's like other side of people just absolutely
Speaker 2: having no idea. And it does feel like, you know,
Speaker 2: like the old the further you get out of school,
Speaker 2: the more pressure it is to like conform, and the
Speaker 2: more pressure it is to like have an answer what
Speaker 2: about Like that ambiguity is so distressing.
Speaker 3: That's such a good a good point because because I've
Speaker 3: been thinking about my clients. For some of them who
Speaker 3: even find their their quote unquote perfect job and then
Speaker 3: they're in their perfect job and it doesn't feel the
Speaker 3: way they thought it would feel, or that it works
Speaker 3: more challenging that they than they thought it would feel.
Speaker 3: And I think we have all this pressure more than
Speaker 3: ever to kind of find our niche, right, you know,
Speaker 3: so many of us were it was drummed into us.
Speaker 3: You find your passion, find your passion, and that's an
Speaker 3: incredibly difficult thing to do in this world where there's
Speaker 3: so many options, there's so many choices. So what I
Speaker 3: encourage my clients, rather than to find your passion to
Speaker 3: to follow you your curiosity because the more curious you
Speaker 3: are about things, and the more you learn about something,
Speaker 3: the more passionate you're going to become. But you know,
Speaker 3: finding your passion is such you know, that's such a
Speaker 3: heavy burden to bear because that's just not an easy
Speaker 3: thing to do.
Speaker 2: Oh no, it literally is not. And it's also sometimes accidental, right,
Speaker 2: Like it is one of those things that when you
Speaker 2: go looking for it, you never find it. It's like life,
Speaker 2: do you know what I mean?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 2: And so it's like you kind of have to do
Speaker 2: a lot of trial and error. But when it's like
Speaker 2: you're so used to the structured environment of schooling where
Speaker 2: it's like, yes, there is like a timeline for everything,
Speaker 2: there is this ultimate goal that you're always working towards
Speaker 2: that like it is a privilege to be able to explore,
Speaker 2: the privilege to have choices feels very daunting, you know.
Speaker 2: I'm sure like a lot of your clients come to
Speaker 2: you and are like, oh, maybe I should go back
Speaker 2: and do my masters or something like that. Do you
Speaker 2: think that sometimes we find a lot of confident in
Speaker 2: like that structure, and that's why we want to return
Speaker 2: to school, Like that's why we find ourselves like drawn
Speaker 2: back to those environments.
Speaker 3: Right absolutely. I think when we get uncertain or unstudy,
Speaker 3: we crave stability, and we crave security and safety. And
Speaker 3: for some they think, well, I'll get my master's or
Speaker 3: I'll go back to school because then I can have
Speaker 3: that safety and security again at least for a little while.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then it just puts you in like so
Speaker 2: much more debt.
Speaker 3: Right exactly. But but really it's just sort of postponing,
Speaker 3: postponing that insecurity or that that instability. And I think
Speaker 3: for some of us, or a lot of work with
Speaker 3: my clients involves getting comfortable with being uncomfortable and getting
Speaker 3: getting more comfortable being you know, sitting with discomfort, right,
Speaker 3: you know, sitting with the fact that like it's okay
Speaker 3: that I don't have it all figured out. It's okay
Speaker 3: that I don't know where I'm going to be in
Speaker 3: five years or ten years, or it's okay that I
Speaker 3: don't know exactly what I want want my career to
Speaker 3: look like. And if we can kind of get to
Speaker 3: that place, it becomes easier to tolerate.
Speaker 2: And I really like that point of like, I think
Speaker 2: once the discomfort becomes easier to tolerate, it's less of
Speaker 2: a factor in your decision making.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: Have you found that, like, once people are comfortable, they
Speaker 2: actually find it easier to be like, yeah, I can
Speaker 2: commit to something, or I can like be more open
Speaker 2: to opportunity.
Speaker 3: Exactly. I think it takes being able to sit with
Speaker 3: discomfort makes it easier to take that first step, because
Speaker 3: I think when we're when we're so afraid of being uncomfortable,
Speaker 3: we're sort of looking for the perfect thing, or it's
Speaker 3: really easy to kind of shut down, right, But what
Speaker 3: we want to do is be able to take baby
Speaker 3: steps right and be able to say to ourselves like,
Speaker 3: I don't have it all figured out, but this job
Speaker 3: seems interesting, or I like doing these types of tasks,
Speaker 3: or I'm curious about this field and being able to
Speaker 3: just take the tiny steps that are going to gradually
Speaker 3: lead us in the direction of where we want to
Speaker 3: go personally, professionally.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's like chasing curiosity instead of chasing like
Speaker 2: perfection and chasing like security. Right, It's like I don't
Speaker 2: actually need to have it all figured out. That's not
Speaker 2: my criteria for saying yes. Like my criteria for saying
Speaker 2: yes is not that this needs to be part of
Speaker 2: like a huge lifelong plan. It's like, is this like
Speaker 2: something that I'm excited by right now, right exactly? So, Okay,
Speaker 2: the loss of like that academic structured environment is a
Speaker 2: huge component, but another huge part, which I honestly think
Speaker 2: is like a bigger element of this. And I feel like,
Speaker 2: you know what I'm gonna say, But it's like relationships, right,
Speaker 2: It's friendships. And you know, I went to like a
Speaker 2: university that a lot of people came from out of
Speaker 2: state to come to, which is not very common in Australia,
Speaker 2: but I'm sure I think in the US and other
Speaker 2: places it is more common. And there was like this
Speaker 2: period like of like six months after I graduated, of
Speaker 2: like a mass exodus where everyone just like dispersed and
Speaker 2: I think that really like contributed to a lot of
Speaker 2: the stress. Why do you think it is that, you know,
Speaker 2: there's loss of relationships can be so uncomfortable, even if
Speaker 2: we know it's going to happen.
Speaker 3: Well college or university, you know, our whole your whole
Speaker 3: life up until that point, you've always been together with
Speaker 3: a group of peers. You've always had a group of
Speaker 3: people in similar circumstances and similar age and and now
Speaker 3: all of a sudden, like you lose that, and that's
Speaker 3: that's again kind of coming back to the loss. That's
Speaker 3: a really big loss of just not having a large
Speaker 3: group of people who are all going through similar circumstances.
Speaker 3: You know, then all of a sudden, you're in your
Speaker 3: first job and you're working with people of all different ages,
Speaker 3: or you're back at home and you're with your family,
Speaker 3: and it's and it just doesn't feel the same. There's
Speaker 3: and even if you're still staying in touch with your friends,
Speaker 3: you know, you don't get to see them for lunch
Speaker 3: every day, or you don't get to study with them
Speaker 3: every afternoon, and so these changes in your routine can
Speaker 3: really be hard to adjust to.
Speaker 2: Oh. I totally found that in my circumstances. It was
Speaker 2: like the shift from having they were part of my routine, right,
Speaker 2: They're part of our errands, they're part of our daily lives.
Speaker 2: I would see them like every single day, sometimes multiple
Speaker 2: times a day because we lived so close. Everybody was
Speaker 2: doing the same thing. And now it's like the shift
Speaker 2: to a lot of long distance friendships. That's a huge one, right,
Speaker 2: But then also it's like this fragmentation where it's like, Okay,
Speaker 2: some of us are traveling, and some of some of
Speaker 2: my friends are like move back home with their parents,
Speaker 2: and some of them are getting married, and some of
Speaker 2: them are doing their masters or unemployed, and there's no
Speaker 2: longer this like I think shared touch point, the shed
Speaker 2: thing that we're all going through, which is UNI, which
Speaker 2: is college, which is like school. So it's like, you know,
Speaker 2: I'm sure you obviously know this, but it's like one
Speaker 2: of the biggest things is like similarity of experiences. Do
Speaker 2: you see a lot of your clients not just like
Speaker 2: you know, it's not just that they feel like they're
Speaker 2: no longer in touch with their friends, but they're losing
Speaker 2: them alltogether.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, I also see my clients go through Maybe the
Speaker 3: way to put it is like friendship drift, where relationships
Speaker 3: are kind of grow apart and they still treasure that
Speaker 3: time that they had in school together, but they just
Speaker 3: aren't as close and the relationship maybe doesn't feel the same,
Speaker 3: or if they have a reunion a year later, it
Speaker 3: just doesn't feel the way they expected it to feel.
Speaker 3: And some friendships even end or or people grow apart,
Speaker 3: And that doesn't mean that anybody's done anything wrong or
Speaker 3: that you made a mistake. It just this happens sometimes.
Speaker 3: And I try to encourage my clients to think about
Speaker 3: the fact that even if a friendship drifts apart, or
Speaker 3: even if it ends, it doesn't mean that the time
Speaker 3: you had together in university wasn't meaningful. That's relationships still
Speaker 3: could have been incredibly mean, meaningful for that time and
Speaker 3: for your development and for what you learned about like
Speaker 3: yourself and the world. But sometimes friendships do change over time.
Speaker 2: What advice would you have for people going through that?
Speaker 2: Because I feel like it's normally not just one right,
Speaker 2: it's normally like a group of people, or it's a
Speaker 2: whole system that not system, but like a whole friendship
Speaker 2: structure that kind of falls apart. So what advice would
Speaker 2: you have for somebody experiencing that.
Speaker 3: So my first advice would be to name and accept
Speaker 3: what you're feeling. So, if you're feeling loss or sadness,
Speaker 3: or disappointment or frustration, to be able to name it
Speaker 3: and be able to accept it without judgment and be
Speaker 3: able to say, like, I'm feeling really sad right now,
Speaker 3: and that's okay, because sometimes what happens is we'll feel
Speaker 3: sad or we'll feel disappointed, but then we'll shame ourselves
Speaker 3: for having that feeling, right Like, we'll say, you know,
Speaker 3: I'm feeling sad, but i shouldn't feel sad because I've
Speaker 3: got so much going for me, or other people have
Speaker 3: it worse, and then and then now we feel guilty
Speaker 3: and sad, which doesn't help anybody, right. So, you know,
Speaker 3: being able to acknowledge and accept your feelings and without
Speaker 3: judging them, that can help the feeling kind of move
Speaker 3: through you a little bit more quickly, and by kind
Speaker 3: of accepting those emotions and also learning to hold two
Speaker 3: emotions at the same time can be really important. You know,
Speaker 3: I'm feeling sad and I'm also feeling excited about the possibilities.
Speaker 3: You know, both of those things can be true at
Speaker 3: the same time. And once we can kind of start
Speaker 3: to interact with our feelings differently, that frees us up
Speaker 3: to be able to take small actions of like you know,
Speaker 3: maybe tomorrow I'm going to study at a new coffee shop,
Speaker 3: or I'm going to a job hunt at a new
Speaker 3: coffee shop, or I'm going to you know, ask that
Speaker 3: person to meet up for a walk or so we
Speaker 3: can start to re establish and create new relationships.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's like not just holding to emotions, but
Speaker 2: holding to truths. Yes, like this, you know, like this
Speaker 2: friendship is changing, but like you said, it doesn't mean
Speaker 2: that it's not still valuable. It doesn't mean that we
Speaker 2: don't still have some form of a relationship. And that
Speaker 2: was something that a lot of my you know, my
Speaker 2: own experience has really taught me with like the post
Speaker 2: graduation blues was so much is changing, and sometimes I
Speaker 2: think it feels like it demands you to make big
Speaker 2: decisions like Okay, me and this person aren't connecting anymore. Well,
Speaker 2: they're not my friend, like blank blank slate, blank space,
Speaker 2: Like they're not my friend. This is all too much
Speaker 2: and just to cut people off or to feel very
Speaker 2: like emotional and I think it is important to yet
Speaker 2: again be able to recognize not just what you had,
Speaker 2: but what they still offer you, just in a lesser capacity.
Speaker 2: And nothing is I say this to people all the
Speaker 2: time and to myself all the time, nothing is ever
Speaker 2: going to come close to the relationship that you have
Speaker 2: with your university or your college friends, especially if you
Speaker 2: lived in the same house with them, especially if you
Speaker 2: lived in the same dorm or in the same like
Speaker 2: sorority or fraternity house. Like that is an incredibly heightened
Speaker 2: artificial way of like being around people right, Like, you
Speaker 2: do not see that anyone else, maybe than like marriage,
Speaker 2: and so you might not find relationships that are as
Speaker 2: close and as like intense, but you might find people
Speaker 2: who like fit better with who you are. Now, does
Speaker 2: that make sense?
Speaker 3: I love that, Yeah, to be willing to adapt and
Speaker 3: be okay with feelings with relationships that don't feel the
Speaker 3: same as they did when you were in a university.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because it's intense. Like, Yeah, it's so intense. R
Speaker 2: It's incredibly artificial to have that level of like contact.
Speaker 3: You get to know people really quickly, and you know
Speaker 3: so much about them, and you know the routines, and
Speaker 3: it just does it always happen when you're after graduation?
Speaker 2: Yeah, because who has time to spend every day together, right,
Speaker 2: because you're at work, sometimes you're at multiple jobs, and
Speaker 2: you have you know, people meet their partners. That's a
Speaker 2: big one. I think that comes with like postgraduation blues,
Speaker 2: is the shift from having a wide group of friends
Speaker 2: to maybe having you know your partner who often comes first,
Speaker 2: and then the friends around that, and it's just like
Speaker 2: a whole relational shift. So we're going to take a
Speaker 2: break now, but when we come back, I want to
Speaker 2: talk to you about how we can cope with that shift,
Speaker 2: how we can embrace fear, and some of your advice.
Speaker 2: So when it comes to postgraduation blues, this might be
Speaker 2: an impossible question, but as a therapist, how long do
Speaker 2: you typically see it lasting?
Speaker 3: That is a challenging question because post graduation blues, like
Speaker 3: I mentioned before, it's very similar to grief, and grief
Speaker 3: is going to be very individual individual. It's going to
Speaker 3: depend on that person's circumstances. It's going to depend on
Speaker 3: how they've handled losses before, it's going to depend on
Speaker 3: their support systems. But I would say, if you if
Speaker 3: the post graduation blues are really impacting your ability to function,
Speaker 3: you know, after a couple of weeks or after a
Speaker 3: month or so, or I mean, I mean, honestly, if
Speaker 3: you're suffering and it's really impacting your ability to you know, function,
Speaker 3: you know, don't hesitate to reach out for support. Whether
Speaker 3: that's individual therapy or group therapy can actually be really
Speaker 3: fantastic because you get the benefits of therapy, but you're
Speaker 3: also healing in a group, which can have unique, unique benefits.
Speaker 3: There's also really great books out there on self development. Uh,
Speaker 3: you know, I would really encourage folks that if they
Speaker 3: are having a hard time and it's really impacting their
Speaker 3: ability to job search or to engage in self care,
Speaker 3: or they're sleep suffering, or they're not eating well, or
Speaker 3: they're drinking too much or engaging you really relying on
Speaker 3: mood altering substances, you know, that might be a sign
Speaker 3: that that okay, I've got to got to get some support.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, absolutely, And I feel like it's those are
Speaker 2: like all big, you know, big indicators that there is
Speaker 2: a level of coping that perhaps you're not adjusting to.
Speaker 2: And that's totally okay, it's a huge change, but I
Speaker 2: do feel like if like after a year, you're still
Speaker 2: being you're still thinking about, oh, like I wish I
Speaker 2: was back there. There's such a deep sense of longing
Speaker 2: of like I would give anything to have that again,
Speaker 2: or always reminiscing not being able to move on. I
Speaker 2: feel like most of the time those feelings should fade
Speaker 2: by that timeline, right Like amongst the people around me,
Speaker 2: it was, you know, everyone still has those moments of
Speaker 2: being like wow, like I really missed the structure of union,
Speaker 2: and I miss my friends, and I missed like my life.
Speaker 2: But after like a year, it's kind of like what now,
Speaker 2: I kind of like my new life.
Speaker 3: At that point. I would love to see someone investing
Speaker 3: in their new life and setting up new goals and
Speaker 3: and figuring out other things that they that can bring
Speaker 3: them excitement and joy and meaning.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like you've had the time to mourn, hopefully,
Speaker 2: and then you've had the like the time to also
Speaker 2: perhaps be a little bit more proactive and also just settle,
Speaker 2: just settle in hard emotions, Like I feel like that
Speaker 2: is a part of I feel like, you know, I'm
Speaker 2: guilty of doing this as well, where it's always like
Speaker 2: what can you be doing? Actively to like help yourself
Speaker 2: and to heal and to move forward. It's like sometimes
Speaker 2: it is just time, and it is just like feeling
Speaker 2: again comfortable with the discomfort right.
Speaker 3: Right, and and also accepting the there's going to be
Speaker 3: a part of you that is going to miss university forever,
Speaker 3: that that that that grief is going to be there
Speaker 3: because you really cared about that time of your life
Speaker 3: and that was a really meaningful time of your life.
Speaker 3: And and there is going to be a small part of
Speaker 3: you or a part of you that's going to that
Speaker 3: is going to forever miss that and and that's okay.
Speaker 3: The reason that it's that you miss it is because
Speaker 3: it was it was important to you.
Speaker 2: I really like that sentiment. What kind of strategies or
Speaker 2: coping mechanisms do you think that recent graduates can use
Speaker 2: to kind of manage the feelings of uncertainty, anxiety, but
Speaker 2: also nostalgia and the grief as you spoke about, right.
Speaker 3: So I always encourage my clients if they're feeling not
Speaker 3: feeling right, they know that their mental health isn't where
Speaker 3: they want it to be, to really pay attention to
Speaker 3: the basics. And those are things, like you know, try
Speaker 3: to move your body every day in some way, drink water,
Speaker 3: get outside, pay attention to sleep, be really mindful about
Speaker 3: alcohol use because that can intensify feelings of anxiety and depression.
Speaker 3: So so start with the basics and make sure you're
Speaker 3: getting some social outlets or some outlets to be creative.
Speaker 3: So that's a great place to start. I would also
Speaker 3: suggest that kind of what like we talked about too,
Speaker 3: to start to learn how to engage with your emotions
Speaker 3: a little bit differently, to start to name what you're feeling,
Speaker 3: to accept what you're feeling, don't judge what you're feeling,
Speaker 3: And also really pay attention to your inner dialogue because
Speaker 3: sometimes the way we talk to ourselves can be incredibly
Speaker 3: harsh and critical and mean. So I really encourage my
Speaker 3: clients to pay attention to how they're talking to themselves
Speaker 3: and just and to ask themselves, you know what would
Speaker 3: I tell a good friend, you know what advice would
Speaker 3: I give them? And to try to start treating themselves
Speaker 3: like they're a friend.
Speaker 2: I love that advice and I say that to people
Speaker 2: all the time, where it's like it's so much easier
Speaker 2: to be kind and to be compassionate and to be
Speaker 2: forgiving to other people and never as easy to do
Speaker 2: it to ourselves. So it's like, Okay, if your best
Speaker 2: friend came to you and was like, I'm really worried
Speaker 2: that I'm never going to find my dream job, what
Speaker 2: would you say to them? You would probably say, like,
Speaker 2: maybe your dream job doesn't exist yet, maybe it's going
Speaker 2: to take some time. Maybe it isn't about what a
Speaker 2: dream job. Maybe it's about the life you create outside
Speaker 2: of work. Like there is so much wisdom that we
Speaker 2: save for other people that would be so valuable for ourselves.
Speaker 2: I always find that. I And the other thing I
Speaker 2: always say is like, especially with anxiety, anxiety and excitement
Speaker 2: feel very similar, Like you would they have like the
Speaker 2: same I'm true, don't they have like this physiological like
Speaker 2: physical origin.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, your hands start getting bits sweaty, get
Speaker 3: those butterflies in your stomach, and you have physical symptoms
Speaker 3: of anxiety or really similar to excitement.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so I'm always like, Okay, Yeah, that feeling
Speaker 2: could be anxiety, like you're anxious about finding your own way,
Speaker 2: you're anxious about feeling lost, or anxious about feeling lonely,
Speaker 2: or you could be excited about the fact that you
Speaker 2: don't Now you don't have this huge time commitment anymore.
Speaker 2: Now like you could go traveling. Now you do have
Speaker 2: more freedom to progress in your career rather than waiting
Speaker 2: to graduate before you really like get started. Now you
Speaker 2: do have time to really choose friends that are really important,
Speaker 2: you know, that are maybe more suited to that part
Speaker 2: of your life that you're in, rather than just like convenient,
Speaker 2: as hard as that sounds, and more time to just
Speaker 2: like see life beyond education, because I really find that
Speaker 2: what's so tricky about postgraduation is it is the first
Speaker 2: time ever that we are not within an educational environment.
Speaker 2: We think this is our first time spending more than
Speaker 2: like four months since out of school like that is
Speaker 2: going to be scary. It's like it's like a zoo animal,
Speaker 2: like finally being released into the wild. Right. Yeah.
Speaker 3: I have a lot of clients who really struggle with
Speaker 3: not receiving regular feedback because their whole life, going through school,
Speaker 3: going through university, they at every quarter, every assignment, every
Speaker 3: at the end of every semester, at the end of
Speaker 3: every year, they knew exactly where they stood. They got
Speaker 3: a grade, or they got a marks on a paper,
Speaker 3: or they got feedback from their professor, from their teacher,
Speaker 3: and now they're in this in the work worlds or
Speaker 3: their job hunting and there's no regular feedback. There's no
Speaker 3: clear indicator of like how am I doing? And that's
Speaker 3: incredibly hard not.
Speaker 2: To get that.
Speaker 3: And some of my work with clients involves learning how
Speaker 3: to give ourselves feedback and how to reflect on like
Speaker 3: what am I proud of? Or what did I do
Speaker 3: well today? And that's not easy because for our entire
Speaker 3: lives up until that point, we've been getting feedback in
Speaker 3: an academic setting.
Speaker 2: That now that you've said that, it's just like really
Speaker 2: hit me because I see that in so many people
Speaker 2: around me and like people who message me and people
Speaker 2: who are like my friends, And you're totally right. How
Speaker 2: do we know that we're doing a good job. We
Speaker 2: have absolutely no like barameter for it. We have no
Speaker 2: way of providing ourselves with the validation ourselves, And that's
Speaker 2: like crazy. How do you suggest people like check in
Speaker 2: with themselves and give feedback to themselves.
Speaker 3: So one activity to try if you're interested in journaling,
Speaker 3: or even if you're not that into journaling but just
Speaker 3: want to drop a few things down at the end
Speaker 3: of the day, But to ask yourself at the end
Speaker 3: of the day, you know, what were my wins? You
Speaker 3: know what am I proud of? And your winds don't
Speaker 3: have to be huge. It doesn't have to be like
Speaker 3: I got a job. You know, it could be your
Speaker 3: wind could be I went on a walk today, I
Speaker 3: updated my resume, I met a friend for coffee, I
Speaker 3: cleaned my kitchen. I mean, your wins could be anything,
Speaker 3: but just things that you're proud of that you did
Speaker 3: that created some positive momentum. And to spend some time
Speaker 3: reflecting on those things and even writing them down, because
Speaker 3: it's so incredibly easy to look at our to do
Speaker 3: list and to think, oh my gosh, I have so
Speaker 3: many more things that so many things I didn't get to,
Speaker 3: or I have so much more I need to do,
Speaker 3: and then we forget to actually take stock of what
Speaker 3: we actually did, and it's important to give ourselves credit
Speaker 3: for those things and to reflect on what we are atchief.
Speaker 2: Oh absolutely. And the other thing is like, actually make
Speaker 2: goals for the next year, because a lot of the
Speaker 2: time you end up meeting them and I know that
Speaker 2: sounds wild, but once you have made it, obviously the
Speaker 2: goals cannot be like, I want to be a millionaire
Speaker 2: by twenty twenty five, because that's not achievable. But if
Speaker 2: you were like, yeah, I really want to have a
Speaker 2: job by this time next year, I really want to
Speaker 2: have one thousand dollars in savings, whatever it is, you
Speaker 2: will often find that there will come a point where
Speaker 2: you will get back to get to look back at
Speaker 2: that entry and be like, Okay, I actually did that,
Speaker 2: and there is a sense of pride there that feels
Speaker 2: very similar to the pride you would get when you
Speaker 2: got an a or when you completed something like an
Speaker 2: assignment or an exam. It might not be the same
Speaker 2: in the same environment, it might not be of the
Speaker 2: same like the same mistakes, but I feel like also
Speaker 2: baseline for what feels like an achievement also kind of
Speaker 2: decreases in a sense as well.
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, I love that being able to set realistic
Speaker 3: goals and get that sense of accomplishment when you meet
Speaker 3: that goal or when you take action towards that goal.
Speaker 2: Well, that really leads to my next question. You've like
Speaker 2: provided me with the segue, which is, you know, if
Speaker 2: you are a racing graduate, how do you set realistic
Speaker 2: goals and expectations about yourself and your life during this
Speaker 2: transitional period. How do you stop yourself from setting me
Speaker 2: I want to be a millionaire goal or I want
Speaker 2: to be a CEO goal.
Speaker 3: So one thing I encourage my clients to do is
Speaker 3: to take a look at their values and to spend
Speaker 3: some time identifying what their values are, because that can
Speaker 3: help shape what goals they want to achieve. For example,
Speaker 3: if they value travel, then you know, that might impact
Speaker 3: what types of goals they set, or if they value
Speaker 3: community or they value financial stability. You know, once you
Speaker 3: identify your values, that can really help be a guidepost
Speaker 3: for setting goals that are going to be in line
Speaker 3: with what you want and are going to be realistic. Also,
Speaker 3: I just want to throw out there too that if
Speaker 3: you set an ambitious goal and you don't meet it,
Speaker 3: that's okay. Maybe you've got part of the way there.
Speaker 3: So so I think it's okay to to you know,
Speaker 3: if you don't meet your goal, that's not the worst thing,
Speaker 3: worst thing in the world, because chances are you you
Speaker 3: definitely made progress.
Speaker 2: And you know what, this might sound a little bit
Speaker 2: wild to say, but there are a lot of people
Speaker 2: out there who never that like never would have dreamed
Speaker 2: of even setting that goal. Who never would have even
Speaker 2: thought it possible to suggest that to themselves. So it's
Speaker 2: pretty amazing that you were that ambitious in the first place.
Speaker 2: It shows a lot at Gusto, Like, yeah, absolutely. And
Speaker 2: the other thing that I always think about is what's
Speaker 2: the rush, Like what's the rush? You know what? Like
Speaker 2: the well, the average agre to graduate in the US's
Speaker 2: twenty two, twenty two, twenty.
Speaker 3: Fo Yeah, that sounds about right, twenty one twenty two,
Speaker 3: somewhere in that range.
Speaker 2: That's wild to me because that is so young. That
Speaker 2: is so young.
Speaker 3: There's a lot of life to live.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'm sure you'll probably you would probably look
Speaker 2: at some of those people and then like you are,
Speaker 2: you're a child, like you, I wish I was that
Speaker 2: young again, Like you have no idea, there's so much time.
Speaker 2: And I always talk about like the seasons of life,
Speaker 2: and like you are at like you are in like
Speaker 2: season one of your like twenty one part TV series,
Speaker 2: like you are only just beginning. There are so many
Speaker 2: relationships and so much character development to happen, like so
Speaker 2: many plot twists. Don't you want to save some of
Speaker 2: the best things for a little while later, like if
Speaker 2: you achieved everything you wanted within the next like two
Speaker 2: to three years, like what's next?
Speaker 3: Yeah, And you bring up such a good point. Something
Speaker 3: I see a lot with my clients is a frustration
Speaker 3: where they really want to do meaningful work, but oftentimes
Speaker 3: your first job out of college or university, the task
Speaker 3: that you're going to be given may not feel that meaningful,
Speaker 3: that they might feel kind of boring or into inconsequential
Speaker 3: and being able to have patients to realize that this
Speaker 3: is a stepping zone, and this is a way to
Speaker 3: get experience, and this is a way to learn what
Speaker 3: you do like in a work environment and what you
Speaker 3: don't like in a work environment, Like all of this
Speaker 3: is really valuable information that you're going to use in
Speaker 3: the future. And to be okay with the fact that
Speaker 3: this isn't a perfect fit right now, but you're getting
Speaker 3: this information that's going to help you in your next step,
Speaker 3: get you closer and closer to what you really want
Speaker 3: to be doing.
Speaker 2: I love that point because I think that's something that
Speaker 2: I rarely speak about on the show. It is the
Speaker 2: drive not just for money, but for purpose and for meaning.
Speaker 2: And we are like such a lucky generation that that
Speaker 2: is something that we could we understand is like on
Speaker 2: the cards for us, right the choice of meaningful work
Speaker 2: is something that we do have available to us. But
Speaker 2: sometimes you don't know what your mission is yet, and
Speaker 2: there is an experience waiting for you in that dead
Speaker 2: end job or waiting for you in that internship or
Speaker 2: in that graduate role. That is like the point where
Speaker 2: you turn over the page, and if you go out
Speaker 2: looking for meanings straight away, you're going to actually end
Speaker 2: up missing the thing that would have provided you with
Speaker 2: that gateway. So it's kind of like just take the
Speaker 2: experiences for what they are in a way, like take
Speaker 2: the experiences for what they might be leading you to, Like,
Speaker 2: not everything is the final destination. That's like exactly, I
Speaker 2: think that's for everything. I want to wrap up by
Speaker 2: asking you for one final piece of advice or some
Speaker 2: words of wisdom that you would get you would give
Speaker 2: to somebody listening right now who has graduated, maybe in
Speaker 2: the last two months last year. He was like, I
Speaker 2: have no idea what I am doing. What would you
Speaker 2: what would you say to them?
Speaker 3: I would encourage them to practice self compassion. So self
Speaker 3: compassion was developed by doctor Kristin Neff, and it's a
Speaker 3: really wonderful concept because she talks a lot about how
Speaker 3: we've been taught to chase self esteem. But self esteem
Speaker 3: often really involves how we stack up against other people,
Speaker 3: and it involves external accomplishments and checking the boxes, and
Speaker 3: so self esteem is going to rise and fall depending
Speaker 3: on what's going on in our world and how we're
Speaker 3: stacking up against other people. Self compassion, on the other hand,
Speaker 3: is more about the relationship that we have with ourselves,
Speaker 3: and it's about treating ourselves like a friend, like we
Speaker 3: talked about earlier, and it's about really offering ourselves some
Speaker 3: compassion and some grace. And when you start to practice
Speaker 3: self compassion, some really wonderful things can happen. It's much
Speaker 3: easier to maintain motivation because you're not getting completely defeated
Speaker 3: when you hit get a curveball. So I really want
Speaker 3: people to start paying attention to how they're treating themselves
Speaker 3: and how they're talking to themselves and to treat themselves
Speaker 3: with self compassion.
Speaker 2: I love that what's one way that somebody could show
Speaker 2: themselves some self compassion after listening to this.
Speaker 3: One way to show yourself self compassion is that if
Speaker 3: you're feeling frustrated or disappointed, or you feel like you've
Speaker 3: made a mistake, is to ask yourself, you know, what
Speaker 3: what would I say to a friend? What would I
Speaker 3: say to someone else? And to take that advice for yourself.
Speaker 3: You know, for example, if I do some writing and
Speaker 3: it doesn't turn out well or it doesn't get well received,
Speaker 3: you know, to ask myself, well, what would I say
Speaker 3: to a friend? And I might say to a friend like, hey,
Speaker 3: you can't be perfect all the time, or you know
Speaker 3: you're trying, or the next one's going to be better,
Speaker 3: and and that'll keep you moving so that you can
Speaker 3: you can figure out what your next STEP's going to be.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I often like thinking about it as well as
Speaker 2: like you're childhood self is still very much alive and
Speaker 2: present within you, like show them the kindness that you
Speaker 2: would show them if they were right in front of
Speaker 2: you right now. So thank you so much for all
Speaker 2: of your wisdom, for all of your free wisdom on
Speaker 2: this topic of post graduation blues. I really appreciate you
Speaker 2: coming on.
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, this has been so much fun. Thank
Speaker 3: you for having me. It's been wonderful talking with you.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, me too. I feel like I was
Speaker 2: unlocking so much of my own experiences that I hadn't
Speaker 2: thought about in like quite a while. So where can
Speaker 2: they find you? Where can the listeners find you? Your book,
Speaker 2: more more of your advice.
Speaker 3: So you can find me on my website. So it's
Speaker 3: Liz KELLYMSW dot com. And I'm also on Instagram at
Speaker 3: real dot life, dot mental dot wellness. You know that's
Speaker 3: a little bit of a mouthful, but I can also
Speaker 3: send you everything if you want to be able to
Speaker 3: link it to the show.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll do that. Thank you as well. Mention your
Speaker 2: book and your book as well.
Speaker 3: Yes, and so my book is called this book is
Speaker 3: Cheaper than therapy and no nonsense guide to improving your
Speaker 3: mental health. It has tools that I share with my
Speaker 3: clients every day. It's really the basics of my version
Speaker 3: of mental health, well one oh one, the basics of
Speaker 3: mental health. And you can find that wherever you like
Speaker 3: to buy books. There's also an audio version and an
Speaker 3: electronic version too.
Speaker 2: Look at that accessible. And also we love an audio
Speaker 2: book because you can listen to it like you're listening
Speaker 2: to this podcast. Thank you so much again for coming
Speaker 2: on as always. If you enjoyed this episode, please feel
Speaker 2: free to leave a five star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,
Speaker 2: wherever you're listening right now. If you have a friend,
Speaker 2: a sibling, I don't know, an acquaintance who has just
Speaker 2: graduated and might need to hear this, send them a link.
Speaker 2: I'm sure they would appreciate the amazing advice and words
Speaker 2: of wisdom from our guest. And of course, make sure
Speaker 2: you're following along and send me any episode suggestion, feedback, thoughts, feelings,
Speaker 2: qualms on Instagram at that Psychology podcast. Until next time,
Speaker 2: stay safe, stay kind, to be gentle with yourself, and
Speaker 2: we will talk soon