Speaker 1: Welcome b a fam Hello, I'm Randy woodrif Santo's so.
Speaker 2: While Many's collecting herself, we had tears amazing conversation with
Speaker 2: not only one of Mandy's heroes, but the hero to many,
Speaker 2: the Roxanne Gay and nanny. Why is Roxanne just like
Speaker 2: one of your hero.
Speaker 1: I'm like, in full tears, I've never been this way
Speaker 1: around Roxanne Gay? Why is she a hero? Because she
Speaker 1: has survived so much like we all do? You know,
Speaker 1: we all have stories to tell, and it's not that
Speaker 1: Roxanne story. And I don't think she feels this way either.
Speaker 1: I'm sure she would say, like, you know, we all
Speaker 1: have stories. Hers is one of many, but she chooses
Speaker 1: to share so much of herself and her book Hunger
Speaker 1: just like cracked me wide open, made me love myself.
Speaker 1: She she is a like she says in the interview,
Speaker 1: you guys will hear you know, she is a black, queer,
Speaker 1: fat woman her words in America, and she's she's so
Speaker 1: gentle and I mean, you know, just in talking to
Speaker 1: her tip, I just am struck by, like like she's
Speaker 1: so she's normal, Like she's just like we all are.
Speaker 1: You know, she's a human being. But she's got grit,
Speaker 1: and she's got bravery and courage. And her story, her
Speaker 1: life story is just so not a nonlinear It goes
Speaker 1: every other direction that you could possibly think. But yet
Speaker 1: look at the way she talks about her mom and
Speaker 1: her dad, and her brother and her nephew and her
Speaker 1: puppy and her wife. Now, it's just it. Really, she's
Speaker 1: just such a hero and and she's a writer like
Speaker 1: she just her words break, they break you and they
Speaker 1: build you back together. And I think that she's genuine
Speaker 1: in how she supports other authors. You can see that.
Speaker 1: You know, she's got her own imprint. Now, the project
Speaker 1: we're going to talk to her about today, BA Fan
Speaker 1: is a collection of essays on ever and we'll put
Speaker 1: a link in the bio. What it's not just her
Speaker 1: work about which we'll get into for sure, her buying
Speaker 1: her first gun as a black woman in America and
Speaker 1: talking about how she thinks it, Well, did she say
Speaker 1: it was empowering? There's some there's some debate about the
Speaker 1: word empowering, but her experience rather and the other authors
Speaker 1: that she lifts up as much as she can. Ah,
Speaker 1: what uh? And the reason I'm like still in full
Speaker 1: tears I'm still crying if I don't know if that's
Speaker 1: even in the show. But at the end, Tiffy, what
Speaker 1: did she say? She said, she said, let me know
Speaker 1: about your book.
Speaker 2: She said, let me know about your book and how
Speaker 2: I can help you, and like in a very genuine way.
Speaker 2: And Mandy, I don't know that. I was like, I
Speaker 2: will stand and will stand in place, and I said
Speaker 2: that I will make sure she reaches out to ask
Speaker 2: for the help when your book comes out or in between.
Speaker 2: And she said, please do because she knew that Mandy,
Speaker 2: despite you know, her being a bad ass boss babe, Yes,
Speaker 2: I am those thanks too, right, it might be afraid
Speaker 2: to reach out to ask for help even though someone
Speaker 2: has made the genuine offer. And so we hope that
Speaker 2: you enjoyed this episode as much as we enjoy being
Speaker 2: in her presence and sharing her with you. And without
Speaker 2: further ado, we welcome the Mama f and Rock sand Get. Hey, Hey, hey,
Speaker 2: we're back. We're extra black. We're brown, ambition, ambition, ambition,
Speaker 2: We're super duper super du brown. In the studio, we
Speaker 2: have company, and so much so we actually took the
Speaker 2: covers off the couch. We're saying a good living room,
Speaker 2: you know the you know the white living room where
Speaker 2: it's like, don't you touch nothing, And we're bringing out
Speaker 2: the good juice from underneath the bed. That's what my
Speaker 2: mother used to do. Wait, wow, you know when you
Speaker 2: have somebody to come over. Because I'm one of four
Speaker 2: and so there was five of us, so juice was
Speaker 2: not lasting long. So we had company man company snacks.
Speaker 2: So we're bringing them all out because we've got a
Speaker 2: special guest in the studio today and so welcome Roxanne Gay.
Speaker 2: The Roxanne Gay.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much. It's a real pleasure to be here. Guys.
Speaker 1: So Mandy said me starts struck.
Speaker 2: Mandy said, this video, but I don't know, it's like
Speaker 2: a nine minute video. Do you prefer Roxanne?
Speaker 3: Miss Gay Roane.
Speaker 1: She's never heard that before, I'm sure never.
Speaker 2: So you sent me that video, Mandy, I did not
Speaker 2: know what to expect. But you know, gun ownership and
Speaker 2: kind of like your journey too was not you know,
Speaker 2: and so it made me, really, I don't know, reconsider
Speaker 2: because just like you Rock saying, my assumption was that
Speaker 2: when you think of gun ownership, it's definitely a white dude,
Speaker 2: it's definitely a brow he probably drives a pickup truck.
Speaker 2: And you know, I don't know I was wearing a
Speaker 2: red hat, if you know what I mean. But I
Speaker 2: have been seeing more and more black women online talk about,
Speaker 2: you know, just a need for protection. And so for
Speaker 2: those of our audience members that have not seen this,
Speaker 2: I guess Mini Doc if you will, cause you kind
Speaker 2: of just share, Like, so now you are officially.
Speaker 3: A gun owner. Oh yes, definitely and can't come for her.
Speaker 3: I mean you can try it.
Speaker 2: You can try, but.
Speaker 3: I don't recommend it, but feel free, but can.
Speaker 2: You kind of share your journey because I watched to
Speaker 2: DOAC and I was like, ah, this gonna makes so
Speaker 2: much sense stuff for sure.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I definitely don't believe people should be
Speaker 3: able to own guns. I think it's absurd how many
Speaker 3: guns are in this country. There are actually more guns
Speaker 3: than people in the United States, and truly no other
Speaker 3: country in the world has that, no other country. And
Speaker 3: we also have a populist that seems more than willing
Speaker 3: to use those guns in public, to use those guns
Speaker 3: to wreak incredible havoc, to take an enormous amount of
Speaker 3: lives at one time, so fundamentally I'm opposed to guns. However,
Speaker 3: you know, when you write and you're a black woman,
Speaker 3: a queer black woman, a fat black woman, and you
Speaker 3: have opinions opinions that quite frankly are not that radical,
Speaker 3: like women are people, and stop killing us when we're unarmed,
Speaker 3: or quite frankly, stop killing us under any circumstances, like
Speaker 3: just basic you know, human rights, one on one things.
Speaker 3: People really don't like it. And some people, of course,
Speaker 3: are just going to troll you on social media, which
Speaker 3: is annoying and sometimes painful, but it is what it
Speaker 3: is and it's not a big deal. But sometimes you
Speaker 3: also get threats. And I've gotten threats for fifteen years now,
Speaker 3: so I'm used to the threats, but they have gotten
Speaker 3: sharper and more specific over time, and some of them
Speaker 3: have indicated, oh, this person isn't just angry because of
Speaker 3: what they read. They've done some research. And then I
Speaker 3: got married and my wife is Jewish, and the threats
Speaker 3: started taking on a very anti Semitic tone, and for
Speaker 3: me that was just like, okay, well now I'm done.
Speaker 3: And my brother Joel was an avid gun enthusiast and
Speaker 3: no one in the family knows where he got this
Speaker 3: from It was just very like what And he had
Speaker 3: long tried to convince our other brother, Michael Junior and
Speaker 3: I to take up gun ownership or to get into it,
Speaker 3: and Michael and I were like, no, thank you. Uh.
Speaker 3: And then finally I thought, well, you know, let me
Speaker 3: give it a go. And so during the pandemic, we
Speaker 3: bought a gun, and my wife and I took gun
Speaker 3: classes and learned how to use one. And you know,
Speaker 3: it's not you know, people always overestimate how interesting it is.
Speaker 3: It's actually not that interesting. It's not even something I
Speaker 3: think about every day. But I do know that if
Speaker 3: someone who doesn't belong in my home enters, I have
Speaker 3: an additional means of trying to protect myself.
Speaker 2: I mean, have you have you ever got a gun, Mandy?
Speaker 1: I mean a BB gun when I was about seven
Speaker 1: years old, and the kickback what do you call it
Speaker 1: when it.
Speaker 3: Like goes the recoil or kickback works too?
Speaker 1: Oh well, it kicked me in the teeth. I'm surprised
Speaker 1: I have all of that. I don't know how was
Speaker 1: I holding it for to kick me in the teeth.
Speaker 1: I don't know. I couldn't tell you. But I grew
Speaker 1: up in Georgia's so there was lots of BB guns around.
Speaker 1: But yeah, my husband works in for the federal government.
Speaker 1: His brother is an ATF agent, and I have two
Speaker 1: little boys, and so my opinions on gun ownership are
Speaker 1: quite severe. Like I just am like it's the devil,
Speaker 1: like never shall it enter this home, Like it's just
Speaker 1: asking for trouble. I do get my husband and his brother.
Speaker 1: They have been to the shooting ranges, they have trained
Speaker 1: with federal agents, like they understand. I love that you
Speaker 1: and your wife took classes, you know, for me, educated
Speaker 1: trained gun owner who learned safety and all that, Like
Speaker 1: that's much different than you know and t if when
Speaker 1: you were when you were saying describing your idea of
Speaker 1: a gun owner, and that was a very different picture.
Speaker 1: For me. It's like a police officer, like just walking
Speaker 1: around wielding that kind of power. It's it scares. But
Speaker 1: I also like raising these two little boys, I feel
Speaker 1: I feel not outnumbered, but I feel like it's inevitable
Speaker 1: that it will be a conversation at some point because
Speaker 1: gun culture is so infused into kid culture, like thin everywhere,
Speaker 1: even the cute video games like I used to play
Speaker 1: Duck Hunter. You know, like everything has guns and it
Speaker 1: water guns. You can't like everything is guns all the time.
Speaker 3: Yeah, my mom wouldn't allow us to play with guns
Speaker 3: growing up, or barbie dolls for similar reasons. Wait what
Speaker 3: kinda just water guns?
Speaker 1: Were no?
Speaker 3: No or just any call guns, no toy guns, no
Speaker 3: water guns. And she was looking back, she was right like,
Speaker 3: oh yeah, normalize it. She also, I mean, this is
Speaker 3: gonna make her sound strange, but she's interesting. She wouldn't
Speaker 3: let us play with stuffed animals because animals are supposed
Speaker 3: to be scary, and she doesn't believe in teddy bears
Speaker 3: because bears are vicious. So now I have tons of
Speaker 3: teddy bears. Obviously, we all work through our traumas one
Speaker 3: way or another.
Speaker 1: But no, my kids growing up and having to have
Speaker 1: like a gun cabinet because mommy wouldn't let them. Ever.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, do you think there's like an intersectionality between gun
Speaker 2: ownership and economic access?
Speaker 3: You know, yeah, sometimes, but you know the reality is
Speaker 3: guns are really cheap. Now if you are poor and
Speaker 3: living paycheck to paycheck, No, you probably don't have three
Speaker 3: hundred and four hundred, five hundred extra dollars to buy
Speaker 3: a gun. So yes, there's definitely something there, and a
Speaker 3: lot of gun owners like the reality is that the
Speaker 3: majority of Americans do not own guns, and so the
Speaker 3: people who do own guns, like, they own a lot
Speaker 3: of guns, and it takes a lot of money to
Speaker 3: have that many guns and to have some of the
Speaker 3: more elaborate rifles, long gun, semi automatic weapons that people
Speaker 3: collect or whatever you used to arm their little militias
Speaker 3: of their families. So there can be a connection. But unfortunately,
Speaker 3: depending on how you think about it, you know, it's
Speaker 3: just very easy to buy a gun. It's very affordable,
Speaker 3: and so you would think that that would be more
Speaker 3: of a barrier, but it isn't because guns are so accessible.
Speaker 3: I had no when I started getting into this and
Speaker 3: doing some research, I actually had no idea how cheap
Speaker 3: guns were. It's so disconcerting to like see a gun
Speaker 3: and then the price tag is like three ninety nine.
Speaker 3: That is certainly money, but when you think about what
Speaker 3: a gun can do, it's just like wow. So this
Speaker 3: is a very accessible price point when you think about it,
Speaker 3: because it's not something you're going to buy every week.
Speaker 3: It's something you're going to buy one and done.
Speaker 1: I mean, I saved up from my prom dress. It
Speaker 1: was two hundred and eighty seven dollars on them forget
Speaker 1: it and like they're eighteen. Other was just something that
Speaker 1: came out that said, the there's so many mass shootings.
Speaker 1: How can I remember the Uvalde the person who, the
Speaker 1: monster who who was responsible for the Uvalde shooting? He
Speaker 1: had saved up before his eighteenth birthday. In a minute
Speaker 1: he turned eighteen. He was like, and here's my ar fifteen. Roxane.
Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you because I mean, you are
Speaker 1: your work is so important to me and so many others.
Speaker 1: I know I'm not alone in that, and it's been
Speaker 1: so empowering and how authentic you are and sharing your story,
Speaker 1: especially your book Hunger, was especially poignant to me. With
Speaker 1: this new project, why turn the lens toward gun ownership?
Speaker 1: Do you hope that it'll be empowering? And in what way?
Speaker 3: No? I mean no, I don't ever make work with
Speaker 3: the ambition of being empowering, because I always harbor I
Speaker 3: think of healthy mistrust about like things that are framed
Speaker 3: as empowering, empowering, Why empowering for who? And it also
Speaker 3: there's a I think a level of hubris there where
Speaker 3: you say I'm trying to empower people. What makes you
Speaker 3: think you can? Instead? I was just interested in how
Speaker 3: do you think about gun ownership as a black feminist,
Speaker 3: Like how do you reconcile those two things? And I
Speaker 3: actually don't know if they can be reconciled, but I
Speaker 3: do think it's interesting because, as you mentioned earlier, you know,
Speaker 3: we tend to think that of gun ownership as a
Speaker 3: white thing, and at least I do. And as I
Speaker 3: bought a gun and started going to the gun range,
Speaker 3: I recognized or I realized, oh my god, I'm surrounded
Speaker 3: by black women. This is really interesting. Now I live
Speaker 3: in Englewood, so you're to find black people in Englewood.
Speaker 3: It's a predominantly black community still, thank god.
Speaker 1: But.
Speaker 3: It was still like, huh. It really forced me to rethink,
Speaker 3: and that was actually the genesis of this essay, just thinking, oh,
Speaker 3: this is really challenging my preconceived notions. And even at
Speaker 3: the gun store, it was mostly white men, but there
Speaker 3: were black women there buying guns, buying ammunition, et cetera.
Speaker 3: And I was curious whenever black women do something, I
Speaker 3: find black women endlessly interesting. And so I was just like,
Speaker 3: let me really sort of see what I can find
Speaker 3: out here. And it was really interesting to learn that
Speaker 3: Black women are the fastest growing demographic of gun owners.
Speaker 3: And I think it's because a lot of us realize
Speaker 3: no one's coming to save us, Like we know that
Speaker 3: more than anyone. Nobody cares about us except us, and
Speaker 3: I hope that we change that. But that's not our
Speaker 3: job to change how people view us. There's nothing we
Speaker 3: can do that we have not already done. We should
Speaker 3: not have to audition to be treated as human. So
Speaker 3: given the way that things are, like, let me do
Speaker 3: what I can do to protect myself.
Speaker 2: It's so interesting because Black women are like the fastest
Speaker 2: growing demographics in the space of entrepreneurship, that's systemographic, going
Speaker 2: to college. But I mean, I feel like in every
Speaker 2: area we are, I wonder why that is.
Speaker 1: I think we're very ambitious and not just around ambition
Speaker 1: if we know the answer, and.
Speaker 3: I think that we know, Like I think also for
Speaker 3: one of the first times we can but like, if
Speaker 3: there's one thing a black woman is going to do,
Speaker 3: she's going to get a degree, period, and so you know,
Speaker 3: I just think we also, for the first time in history,
Speaker 3: have more available resources and time to do this we have,
Speaker 3: you know, still all of the same responsibilities, but I
Speaker 3: just think we're more encouraged now there are more avenue use,
Speaker 3: there's more ways of gaining confidence to do these kinds
Speaker 3: of things. Of course, student loans which are problematic, but nonetheless,
Speaker 3: I mean they allowed me to go to grad school.
Speaker 3: So I think a lot of us recognize, Okay, let
Speaker 3: me take these low interest loans and see what I
Speaker 3: can do about getting a degree, or gun ownership or
Speaker 3: starting a And you know, even with starting a business,
Speaker 3: like how am I going to generate generational wealth? How
Speaker 3: am I even going to support my family today? Like
Speaker 3: not even thinking that far ahead in ways that I
Speaker 3: can do so on my own terms without having to
Speaker 3: compromise myself as much as I would if I were
Speaker 3: to work for someone else. And so we see a
Speaker 3: lot of entrepreneurship and it's great.
Speaker 2: Hold that thought and we'll be right back.
Speaker 1: State farm agents are small business owners too, so they
Speaker 1: know how to help you choose personalized policies that fit
Speaker 1: your needs, like a good neighbor. State farm is there.
Speaker 1: Talk to your local agent today. So I want to
Speaker 1: talk about well, yes, gun ownership, but I also want
Speaker 1: to talk about like Sonia Massy, Like we can't ignore
Speaker 1: that that just happened. I mean, I what I like
Speaker 1: about and what challenges me with some of your writing
Speaker 1: and even this project, is that you're not trying to
Speaker 1: offer answers. You're literally just looking at a question. But
Speaker 1: I can't help but ask in that situation, like how
Speaker 1: do you feel about Sonia Massy? I mean she had
Speaker 1: a pot of boiling water and her life was taken
Speaker 1: from her. Do you think if we look to gun
Speaker 1: ownership as a way of protecting ourselves, like, how does that? Like?
Speaker 1: Can it work? Can it will be be more protected
Speaker 1: or more endangered? It?
Speaker 3: See, well, the thing is we're always endangered, So no,
Speaker 3: we won't be more endangered, but will we be more protected?
Speaker 3: I don't think there's anything more that can actually protect us.
Speaker 3: And that also extends to black men. Look at Tamiya
Speaker 3: Rice a child, look at Trayvon Martin, Filando Castile, Tatiana,
Speaker 3: Tatiana Jefferson. The list is so long, It's so long,
Speaker 3: it gets longer every year. So I you know, I
Speaker 3: think I did think about that because like if police
Speaker 3: came into my house and I thought it was an
Speaker 3: intruder and I was holding a gun. I would absolutely
Speaker 3: lose my life. That actually happened. I can't remember his name,
Speaker 3: but he was an air Force. He was a member
Speaker 3: of the Air Force. It happened probably a month and
Speaker 3: a half ago, where he thought the police were an intruder.
Speaker 3: He had his gun. He's a legal registered gun owner
Speaker 3: in his home, standing his ground, and it did not matter.
Speaker 3: And So when I think about Sonya Massey, what really
Speaker 3: breaks my heart? I mean, all of it breaks my heart,
Speaker 3: but what really breaks my heart is that she called
Speaker 3: the police because she was afraid, while also knowing she
Speaker 3: should be afraid of the police. Because the first thing
Speaker 3: she said to them was don't hurt me, and they're like,
Speaker 3: why would we hurt you?
Speaker 2: And now?
Speaker 3: And then they did, like a pot of boiling water
Speaker 3: isn't going to do anything to you? I mean. And
Speaker 3: it just seems like the police department is a vocational
Speaker 3: program for cowards, because so many of these officers say,
Speaker 3: I was afraid for my life. I was afraid. I
Speaker 3: was afraid, Like you're afraid of a woman in her
Speaker 3: nightgown holding a pot of water? Back up, like, I mean,
Speaker 3: what is she going to do to you? And even
Speaker 3: if you're afraid. I just don't understand why taking someone's
Speaker 3: life is your means of addressing your fear. So did
Speaker 3: you'll see.
Speaker 1: That he had been to like five different Is that true?
Speaker 1: I need to like vet that source. But I had
Speaker 1: read that he was a part of five different police precincts,
Speaker 1: and and it was just going back to the idea
Speaker 1: that there's no like, there's no stopping a bad cop
Speaker 1: from getting like who's been suspended, for example, in one
Speaker 1: district or whatever the jurisdiction is, moving to another area
Speaker 1: getting a new job as a police officer. Like, they
Speaker 1: don't do serious checks on that kind of thing. So
Speaker 1: he was allowed to go from precinct to precinct to
Speaker 1: precinct to precinct. Clearly an issue, and I think there'll
Speaker 1: be more to come on that, but.
Speaker 3: I tend to point know that, but I'm not surprised.
Speaker 3: Like the young not the young. The officer who killed
Speaker 3: Tamir Rice was recently found working for a sheriff's department
Speaker 3: somewhere and now, of course he has been let go
Speaker 3: because they didn't bother to do a background check. That's
Speaker 3: someone who's supposed to serve and protect. It's fine blowing.
Speaker 3: What do you mean you didn't do a background check.
Speaker 1: I mean I had to fire someone before they were
Speaker 1: even on the job because they lied about going to
Speaker 1: NYU all the way, like didn't have the full degree,
Speaker 1: just went for a year and the JAR was like, yeah, no,
Speaker 1: we don't allow that, and they were gone. So that's insane.
Speaker 2: You know, this is a country where you know, you
Speaker 2: have a family, you can have vote, but you can
Speaker 2: be president.
Speaker 1: So well, let's lighten it up. How do you feel
Speaker 1: about Kamala Harris as president? Roxanne?
Speaker 2: Is that lightning it up?
Speaker 1: Were you one of the forty four thousand.
Speaker 3: No, I was not, but I would have been. I
Speaker 3: think that it's just I'm all in. I think that
Speaker 3: we should all be all in for Kamala Harris, and
Speaker 3: I know that that some people don't like that. And
Speaker 3: I'm not saying that we just unequivocally and uncritically engage
Speaker 3: with her. I'm actually excited that we have a candidate
Speaker 3: that we can learn more about, that we can ask
Speaker 3: questions of, that we can make demands of. And so
Speaker 3: I think this is this is a great opportunity to
Speaker 3: push Kamala further left, to find out what she intends
Speaker 3: to do about Gaza and stopping the war there and
Speaker 3: this completely breathtaking and senseless loss of life. You know,
Speaker 3: but I think it's I think she's a phenomenal candidate,
Speaker 3: and I'm very comfortable saying that, Yeah, yes, there are
Speaker 3: many of things we can critique and should critique her
Speaker 3: history as a cop and a prosecutor, and some of
Speaker 3: the choices she made in those positions, Yes, those deserve critique.
Speaker 3: But Donald Trump remains an existential threat.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think she'd also welcome the critique, and
Speaker 1: you know, if it wasn't, I think she would be, like,
Speaker 1: she would be open to that. Like you said, she's
Speaker 1: like malleable, flexible, like we all should be open to feedback,
Speaker 1: open to question, open to change. And I do think, like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean it sounds like you're saying, maybe, like being
Speaker 1: under Biden, she was a bit more moderate, and maybe now.
Speaker 3: It's not even under Biden. I think that all Democrat
Speaker 3: politicians are moderate because they feel like that's how they're
Speaker 3: going to reach independence. And like those random conservative voters
Speaker 3: who like the Obama voters, so you know, I think
Speaker 3: moderate is except for AOC Bernie Sanders, who in some ways.
Speaker 3: It's actually kind of moderate too, but has far more
Speaker 3: leftist policies than most elan Omar Rashida Talib. You know,
Speaker 3: like there are a few left truly leftist politicians, but
Speaker 3: most of them are incredibly moderate, and so it would
Speaker 3: just be great to push her further left the way
Speaker 3: that all candidates on the left have been pushed left
Speaker 3: by progressive constituents. And we'll see what happens. And I
Speaker 3: do also believe it's great that we get to finally
Speaker 3: have political imagination again. I'm actually writing about this right now.
Speaker 3: We have just been told like we have to vote
Speaker 3: between the ancient man and the ancient man, the ancient
Speaker 3: man who maybe is in decline, or the dictator who
Speaker 3: is going to end democracy and kill us all. It's
Speaker 3: not a choice, like we are not really given choices,
Speaker 3: and we kind of don't have a choice with you know,
Speaker 3: Kamala Harris, but we also do. I'm very encouraged. And
Speaker 3: you know, for so long people distablished excuse me, established
Speaker 3: democrats have been like not yet, not now, we have
Speaker 3: to you know, get past this hump. And finally this
Speaker 3: time people put their foot down and said, no, we're
Speaker 3: doing it now, and I think if we can start
Speaker 3: now with Kamala Harris, I'm really encouraged by looking at
Speaker 3: the younger Democrats for twenty twenty eight. Well, at this point,
Speaker 3: there'll be twenty twenty thirty two if she is successful
Speaker 3: in her bid for the presidency and really start saying
Speaker 3: instead of tomorrow today. So I think this is the
Speaker 3: beginning of a shift, and I'm excited about that.
Speaker 1: I'm so glad because yeah, it feels that way. It
Speaker 1: feels like I mean, I was in college when Obama
Speaker 1: was elected, but I feel just as excited, even more
Speaker 1: so because now I know what the hell's going on
Speaker 1: a lot more than just yay, we're excited black guys winning.
Speaker 1: Like now, it's like, oh, the stakes are high as
Speaker 1: the fuck, Like we gotta yes, call to action. I'm
Speaker 1: very excited. Do you have any plans to I mean,
Speaker 1: you have so much going on, and I know that
Speaker 1: you're not you don't shy away from politics and your writing,
Speaker 1: but any plans to support the campaign? Host another?
Speaker 3: Absolutely going to support the campaign. I'm going to be
Speaker 3: a campaign it what does that mean? It means that
Speaker 3: you do events on behalf of the campaign. You can
Speaker 3: host fundraisers, you know, just find ways of contributing and
Speaker 3: supporting the campaign. And I just I'm doing it because
Speaker 3: I remember in twenty sixteen I was supportive of Hillary Clinton,
Speaker 3: but I just didn't want to deal with nonsense. And
Speaker 3: also I was like, she's going to win, Like this
Speaker 3: is the k Quah. There's simply no way that the
Speaker 3: former Secretary of State and United States Senator is going
Speaker 3: to lose too associopath, I was wrong, And it's not
Speaker 3: that I think that my support would have shifted the election.
Speaker 3: I'm not completely out of my mind. It's just that
Speaker 3: I was so worried about the wrong things that I
Speaker 3: didn't say enough given what was at stake. And I
Speaker 3: think you can be supportive of candidates while being critical
Speaker 3: of candidates. And another thing we have to I think
Speaker 3: this is an opportunity for is to get rid of
Speaker 3: stand culture and politics, like we do not have to
Speaker 3: stand Kamala Harris to support her for president, and quite frankly,
Speaker 3: I think it's disrespectful to stand people to engage with
Speaker 3: them uncritically, like do you think she's incapable of withstanding
Speaker 3: critique as the literal vice president of someone a black woman,
Speaker 3: a South Asian woman, so accomplished. She's been there, done that.
Speaker 3: She knows critique. She can handle it. I'm sorry, but
Speaker 3: she can. And so I think it's a really great
Speaker 3: opportunity for us to learn how to engage with people
Speaker 3: and do so in ways that are interesting and useful.
Speaker 1: My love language is getting feedback. Maybe it's a writer thing,
Speaker 1: Like if there's an editor who reads my work and
Speaker 1: then it has no feedback, I'm like, so you hate me,
Speaker 1: Like so you don't care enough to think about this
Speaker 1: really carefully and like give that kind of feedback.
Speaker 2: I have you mentioned Kamala as a black woman. So
Speaker 2: I posted something about her on social and someone said,
Speaker 2: stop calling her a black woman. She's not a black woman.
Speaker 2: What are your thoughts about? Like, I've been seeing that
Speaker 2: a lot.
Speaker 1: This is not a mixed thing.
Speaker 3: Is First of all, she's an AKA. Not that I
Speaker 3: mean you can be non black and be an AKA,
Speaker 3: but I mean, let's be b Yes, I know that
Speaker 3: I've seen at least one white AKA in my time. Wow,
Speaker 3: but like, be for real, she's also South Asian. I
Speaker 3: don't ever want to take that away. I think that
Speaker 3: when you're biracial, yes, you you come from two different
Speaker 3: cultures and you should have every right to acknowledge those cultures.
Speaker 3: But we live in a world, sadly that doesn't care.
Speaker 3: We live in a world that will tend to look
Speaker 3: at her and her beautiful silk press as a black woman. First,
Speaker 3: she's a black woman.
Speaker 2: And I thought that was only had to google. I'm like,
Speaker 2: so her dad is Jamaican black, Okay, like her mom
Speaker 2: is Asian. And I thought to myself, so we're all claiming,
Speaker 2: you know, President Obama as black. I don't think any.
Speaker 2: I've never heard a black person say he's not black,
Speaker 2: but then they're mean. But I just thought that was
Speaker 2: odd because I'm just like, if anything, she's even more brown.
Speaker 2: I just I'm not sure, like why for her is
Speaker 2: because I've been getting that a lot, which is she's
Speaker 2: not a black woman, She's not a black woman. Stopped
Speaker 2: calling her that, and I'm like, what since Winda being
Speaker 2: Jamaican not so, I don't know if they mean like
Speaker 2: American black.
Speaker 3: Well, there is a small segment of people, the Ados folks. Yes,
Speaker 3: they are like, nah, you know, she's not one of us,
Speaker 3: which is so unproductive. But I mean they say the
Speaker 3: same thing about me.
Speaker 2: So yeah, me too because my parents are both Nigerian, although.
Speaker 3: Yeah, my parents are Vocaitian and it is what it is.
Speaker 3: There's like I don't even like there's nothing to say
Speaker 3: to it, and like you're entitled to your beliefs. And
Speaker 3: I know I'm black, so onward we go.
Speaker 2: I know, I'm like we had.
Speaker 3: It's Monday so and sharing that. But you know, I
Speaker 3: just I think there are people who are going to
Speaker 3: waste their time between now and November fifth sort of
Speaker 3: debating her identity. Her identity is actually not up for debate.
Speaker 3: I look to people for how they identify, and I
Speaker 3: follow suit. I do that with regard to almost every
Speaker 3: aspect of identity, rather than trying to project what I
Speaker 3: think they should be or who they are. People are
Speaker 3: more than willing generally to tell you who they are,
Speaker 3: and she identifies both. She identifies as biracial, but more
Speaker 3: often than not, she refers to herself as a black woman,
Speaker 3: and I don't think that means she denies her South
Speaker 3: Asian heritage. She seems to love her mother very much
Speaker 3: and seems to have had a very good relationship with
Speaker 3: her mother. It's front and center. I mean, her name
Speaker 3: is Kamala, so it's not ambiguous, and I just again
Speaker 3: it speaks to this reluctance that people have for nuance, like, oh,
Speaker 3: I don't want to think about anything that's just like
Speaker 3: slightly too complicated. This is not actually complicated at all.
Speaker 2: So well, I have a final question that I think
Speaker 2: for someone who's listening and they kind of want to
Speaker 2: get into your work, where would be a good place
Speaker 2: to start? They're like, like, who is Roxyne Gay? I
Speaker 2: want to I'm loving her, She's amazing. I want to
Speaker 2: read more of her things. Where's a good place to start?
Speaker 1: If you listen to Brown Ambition and you don't know
Speaker 1: who Roxanne Gay is, we have bigger problems right now.
Speaker 3: No, no, no, like I always remind myself no, Like,
Speaker 3: few people have read your work, relatively speaking, Roxane, so
Speaker 3: keep your shit together. I will say, A good place
Speaker 3: to start is Hunger, okay or bad Feminist? I think
Speaker 3: all of my work offers some semblance of who I am,
Speaker 3: for sure, but Hunger is certainly the most personal thing
Speaker 3: I've ever written, and Bad Feminists would give you a
Speaker 3: sense of my thinking, or at least my thinking. But
Speaker 3: the book was published ten years ago, but the essays
Speaker 3: were written about twelve or thirteen years ago. And have
Speaker 3: I evolved, Yes, but I stand by everything I wrote
Speaker 3: in that book.
Speaker 1: So you still go to scrabble matches?
Speaker 3: Do you still do scrab I don't have time anymore,
Speaker 3: but I would. I sure would. I play scrabble every
Speaker 3: day though, so absolutely. You just never know when you're
Speaker 3: going to be called into action. I'm ready. Let's go.
Speaker 1: Also, the New York Times, your columnists there, you have
Speaker 1: this new project. You can find the essay about ownership.
Speaker 1: I believe it's on July thirty first. It's coming out
Speaker 1: into the world through Everrand.
Speaker 3: I think August fifth. I'm not sure. The date keeps moving,
Speaker 3: but I'm pretty sure it's August fifth. But if it's
Speaker 3: July thirty first, then.
Speaker 1: I mean it was on July tenth when your publicist
Speaker 1: emailed us it was July thirty first. But we know
Speaker 1: it's fluidity. We're fluid.
Speaker 3: You know everything's fluid. We're just going to go with
Speaker 3: the flow.
Speaker 1: The point is go find it.
Speaker 3: Maybe soon. It's going to be soon on Everrand formerly
Speaker 3: known as Script.
Speaker 1: And it's not just you either. What I one thing
Speaker 1: that's apparent to me is how supportive you are of
Speaker 1: writers in your community, and like, I mean you held
Speaker 1: the workshop recently for novel like novel novel writing Workshop.
Speaker 1: And there's more than just you, you know, featured in
Speaker 1: this project right on everrand, So there's several several other
Speaker 1: authors that look fantastic. So we know black women make
Speaker 1: up such a huge, if not the biggest, feel like
Speaker 1: readership in this country. And y'all love books, you'll love
Speaker 1: to read, so I definitely think check this out. You
Speaker 1: can also listen isn't it audio? Is it audio?
Speaker 3: Or like it's both a e book and an audiobook,
Speaker 3: and I hope people check it out. And there are
Speaker 3: four other essays in the series by incredible writers. There's
Speaker 3: a woman who wrote an essay about the history of
Speaker 3: German shepherds and dog training. And it doesn't seem like
Speaker 3: something you'd be into because I'm not a dog person. However,
Speaker 3: like now, like anytime someone brings up a German shepherd,
Speaker 3: I'm like, did you know? Which is great? And then
Speaker 3: Runda Gerrar, a Palestinian American writer, wrote about raising her
Speaker 3: son at seventeen and becoming a mother and learning how
Speaker 3: to become a mother, and the German shepherd essay is
Speaker 3: written by Elaine Castillo. Cookbook author and chef. Julia Turshen
Speaker 3: wrote about getting into powerlifting and recognizing her own strength
Speaker 3: and making peace with her body exactly as it is
Speaker 3: and honoring her body as it is. And then Gabrielle Blot,
Speaker 3: his Beautiful Black Woman writer wrote an essay about her
Speaker 3: journey into psychedelics and sort of becoming a psychonaut.
Speaker 1: I love it. I know Tiffany said final, but I
Speaker 1: didn't agree to that, So I have another question. I'm
Speaker 1: a negotiation coach. I actually do empower women. I'll tell
Speaker 1: you how I empower them to be a badass and
Speaker 1: ask for more. So I'm just wondering, like you are
Speaker 1: someone who as a writer like I just think a
Speaker 1: writer who has transitioned into this you know, empire, media,
Speaker 1: empire and powerful woman. And you're not just writing books
Speaker 1: like you are supporting yourself. You are. You are doing well,
Speaker 1: at least from the outside looking in. I just wondered
Speaker 1: if you could share and like experiences or observations negotiating
Speaker 1: on your own behalf or having to figure out how
Speaker 1: to get your value. I am such a huge fan
Speaker 1: of you, but I wonder if you feel like you
Speaker 1: know in the world that you are in publishing, entertainment,
Speaker 1: whatever else, Like, are you having to fight for your
Speaker 1: value and your worth? And then how do you deal
Speaker 1: with that?
Speaker 3: Yes, I still have to fight for my value and
Speaker 3: my worth. I'm a Yes, I think when you're a
Speaker 3: black woman, you always do. And sometimes I think, oh,
Speaker 3: I'm negotiating myself so well. I'm so proud of myself.
Speaker 3: And then I learned like what my peers are making
Speaker 3: and I'm like, what the fuck? I have a fairly
Speaker 3: no nolytaiculate that I have a great team around me.
Speaker 3: I have an incredible entertainment lawyer who is an absolute shark,
Speaker 3: and I have a literary agent and a TV and
Speaker 3: film agent who are just phenomenal at what they do,
Speaker 3: and so they do everything in their power to get
Speaker 3: me as much as possible. And when I mean, it's
Speaker 3: just there's only so much you can do when like
Speaker 3: the person you're advocating for as a black woman, and
Speaker 3: it actually it's really fucking racist and sad to have
Speaker 3: to say that. It just shouldn't be this hard. It
Speaker 3: shouldn't be this way. I shouldn't have to send this
Speaker 3: team out to get what I'm worth and when I'm
Speaker 3: advocating on my own behalf, it's also really challenging most
Speaker 3: of the time. I actually will say with this Everran project,
Speaker 3: it was not they were. They came correct the first
Speaker 3: time around. I didn't even have to push for what
Speaker 3: I wanted. They gave me what I wanted and then
Speaker 3: some and that was rare, and I wish it wasn't.
Speaker 3: But you know, the main thing that I've done to
Speaker 3: be able to negotiate the way I want and to
Speaker 3: be able to work for the amount of money that
Speaker 3: I want is to have multiple income streams. So like
Speaker 3: I have a day jobs and I write, and I
Speaker 3: do some film and television. I obviously don't have children,
Speaker 3: so that frees up quite a lot of time. But
Speaker 3: I have put myself in a position and it's always
Speaker 3: been this way that you can tell me no, and
Speaker 3: I'm going to be fine. I may not be able
Speaker 3: to go on an extra vacation perhaps or whatever, but
Speaker 3: I have a lot of financial responsibilities. And you know,
Speaker 3: my brother died and so he has his children that
Speaker 3: my other brother and I now look after. So I'm
Speaker 3: always going to make sure that my money is right
Speaker 3: and I am never going to rely on one source
Speaker 3: of income because you just can't trust it. And also
Speaker 3: like there are economic downturns, a pandemic, I always just
Speaker 3: need to know. And it's partly I think the Caribbean
Speaker 3: mentality that I'm going to be okay no matter what.
Speaker 3: And I'll also just go work at Starbucks if i
Speaker 3: have to. I don't care. Money is money. A job
Speaker 3: is a goddamn job. And I've had a job since
Speaker 3: I was thirteen, so i am not afraid of work.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'm so sorry for your loss.
Speaker 3: Oh thank you, it was terrible. But go ahead.
Speaker 1: I was going to ask if he you said during
Speaker 1: the pandemic is when you purchased your first gun, I wondered.
Speaker 1: I forgot if he had passed before that or no,
Speaker 1: tell his baby says okay, oh he was.
Speaker 3: So now I'm actually the I'm the older sister. Oh
Speaker 3: your old Oh okay, yeah, Lord knows. He certainly moved
Speaker 3: through the world like he was the oldest, but now
Speaker 3: he was my baby brother, which was so funny. He
Speaker 3: was a typical medical middle child, but he actually did know.
Speaker 3: He's the one who gave me recommendations and like the
Speaker 3: minute you ask him about guns, rule little look. And
Speaker 3: so when I asked him, I was like, Joel in
Speaker 3: like ten words or fewer? Oh no, what should I do?
Speaker 3: Of course he gave me a thousand words. But that's
Speaker 3: what makes him so lovable, and so he definitely knew
Speaker 3: and was like, helped me with the purchase. He offered
Speaker 3: to actually fly out to La to help me buy
Speaker 3: the gun. I was like, I think I can do it.
Speaker 3: I think I can. So after I bought it, I
Speaker 3: was like, I did it, Joel, I did it, and
Speaker 3: he was like, yes, all right, great, Now here are
Speaker 3: the bullets you need to get to.
Speaker 1: Actually buy the gun.
Speaker 3: Do you get it?
Speaker 1: Like it's like going to buy a steak at the
Speaker 1: grocery store. Do you just pick it out, pay for
Speaker 1: it or like what's the timeline?
Speaker 3: Basically, well, it depends on where you live. In some
Speaker 3: states you can go pick it out like a piece
Speaker 3: of meat and walk out the store. In California, you go,
Speaker 3: you pick out the piece of meat and then they
Speaker 3: hold it in the freezer for ten days. Okay, which
Speaker 3: is great.
Speaker 1: They do.
Speaker 3: It's annoying and that you have to like go back.
Speaker 3: But you can only buy one gun a month in
Speaker 3: California there has been a legal challenge to it. The
Speaker 3: state Supreme Court recently overturned it. But if for whatever,
Speaker 3: for whatever reason, the law is still in place, and
Speaker 3: I think it will be. I think it's probably going
Speaker 3: to go to the Big Supreme Court or the Ninth Circuit.
Speaker 3: And you know, I think that California's gun laws are
Speaker 3: restrictive and in a very healthy, insane way, like take
Speaker 3: some time to think about it. Really, it's to prevent
Speaker 3: you from buying a gun in the heat of the moment,
Speaker 3: but also to allow the background check to happen. And
Speaker 3: so then after ten days you get a call or
Speaker 3: if you know, you're at an efficient gun shop, they'll
Speaker 3: tell you that day you buy, you like, you can
Speaker 3: come back after three pm. You know, ten days from now,
Speaker 3: you go back, you pick up your gun, they do
Speaker 3: a safety demonstration, they make sure you have a gun lock,
Speaker 3: they give you a little case, and you can buy
Speaker 3: whatever else you need, and off you go.
Speaker 1: Did you feel like did you feel welcome in that space?
Speaker 1: I'll say really quickly. In college I went with I
Speaker 1: had a black queer friend of mine, his name was Isaiah.
Speaker 1: We thought out of touch, but he was being bullied,
Speaker 1: so bad. I'm from Georgia. I went to the University
Speaker 1: of Georgia. Big historically, yeah, exactly, but he was being
Speaker 1: bullied in college. He did not feel safe. He said
Speaker 1: his neighbors were making threats to get hit against him.
Speaker 1: He was out and I won't say like he was
Speaker 1: out and proud, but he was just himself, you know,
Speaker 1: and he didn't feel safe. He asked me to go
Speaker 1: with him. I feel like it was like a Dix
Speaker 1: or maybe it was Walmart. I don't know where we went,
Speaker 1: and they like were like, you guys need to get
Speaker 1: out of here, like they did not want to sell
Speaker 1: us a gun, and i' and then like they said,
Speaker 1: we'll call the police. It was so bizarre. I don't know,
Speaker 1: that's not how.
Speaker 3: Any of this works, but I mean, obviously I can,
Speaker 3: but and you know, I did feel welcome. The thing
Speaker 3: about the store was like they weren't trying to be
Speaker 3: your little friend. However, these dudes all they do is
Speaker 3: sell guns and they love it, and so they were
Speaker 3: extremely helpful. They totally were great with a first time
Speaker 3: gun buyer. I've thought it was wonderful because I actually
Speaker 3: don't need to be their friend. I need to be
Speaker 3: informed and they were really good about that, and in
Speaker 3: their own way, I felt like they were super nice.
Speaker 3: And you know, the thing about Los Angeles is it's
Speaker 3: a really diverse city, which is not to say that
Speaker 3: racism doesn't happen here and that there aren't segregated communities,
Speaker 3: because there are, but everybody lives here from every single
Speaker 3: like race or ethnicity, or religious background or whatever that
Speaker 3: you can think of. And so most people here, it's
Speaker 3: are very capable of getting along with others and just
Speaker 3: being normal and so, well, California different than Georgia. It is,
Speaker 3: you know, and I was you know, it depends on
Speaker 3: you know, sometimes the South it's like, yeah, everyone knows
Speaker 3: how to get along, and then you go into circumstances
Speaker 3: like what you just articulated, and it's like, no, they
Speaker 3: don't actually as.
Speaker 1: Long as you're moving in a way that they're okay with. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean you're in a space that they associate with. Yeah,
Speaker 1: well I live in New York. Now, So how do
Speaker 1: you like Batriod mentioned when you're talking about kids, I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 1: the worst financial decision in a lot of ways is
Speaker 1: to try to raise humans in this country, especially in
Speaker 1: a very expensive state like New York. But I don't know.
Speaker 1: It's don't ask me that now, because I was just
Speaker 1: in LA for a week. And when I tell you,
Speaker 1: it's the drink xan. No one I knew about the
Speaker 1: sunshine and come on, but there's no mosquitoes I know
Speaker 1: and no mosquitos.
Speaker 3: No one understands.
Speaker 1: Why are they not putting this in the tourism the commercials.
Speaker 3: As your man, bring your babies, come on over, We're
Speaker 3: ready for yousquito bite.
Speaker 1: I came with the biggest deep deep woods. I was like,
Speaker 1: they have nature. Oh my god, incredible.
Speaker 3: It is an absolute dream.
Speaker 1: I love question a lot of choices now, so I
Speaker 1: will not I will defer, I will stop New York.
Speaker 1: I'm figuring it out. Okay, I'm on a journey.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I live in New York. Have time, So I
Speaker 3: hear you. I hate I mean, I don't care for
Speaker 3: New York, but I love a New Yorker. My wife
Speaker 3: is a lifelong New Yorker.
Speaker 1: And okay, are you guys like city people or burbs
Speaker 1: people when you live in New York.
Speaker 3: We live in Chelsea.
Speaker 1: Oh okay, Well, if you're going to live in the city,
Speaker 1: I think Chelsea is one of the best names.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's city. But I see trees once in a while,
Speaker 3: not like a lot of trees, but like a tree.
Speaker 1: Not that many tourists.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's why I like living in NewYork. People have
Speaker 2: always had a lot to say about Nework. But I
Speaker 2: love living here because people are amazing I think. I mean,
Speaker 2: certainly you have you know who are not. But I
Speaker 2: love the community component. I love. What I really love
Speaker 2: about New York is I feel safe to be black here.
Speaker 3: Wait, New York or Newark, Newark, New Jersey. Okay, yeah,
Speaker 3: I work in New Brunswick and so I passed new
Speaker 3: work all the time. I like And I also actually
Speaker 3: had it. Did an event at Rutgers Newark the other day. Yes,
Speaker 3: and a couple months ago. I like Newark, New York
Speaker 3: is cute. Soccer team there, the soccer stadiums there. Sorry,
Speaker 3: I know this is just a dumb but a New
Speaker 3: York is cute.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Tiffany is like the mayor. She's being I'm not,
Speaker 1: but she is like so famous in Newark and you
Speaker 1: can't even go anywhere. People all know her there.
Speaker 3: And I've talked for you, Tiffany.
Speaker 2: No, I just love being black amongst black people. I
Speaker 2: think a walk every day. Sometimes I'm wearing my hoodie
Speaker 2: and I never think to myself, oh my gosh, I
Speaker 2: hope I don't. I'm not presenting us quote unquote dangerous
Speaker 2: because it just feels safe to be black. You know,
Speaker 2: our mayor is super black aroused Baraka, you know, the
Speaker 2: son of the late Amri Baraka, which you know, and
Speaker 2: so just you know, he's dedicated to making sure the
Speaker 2: city is you know, it's a black city, and it's
Speaker 2: a city that you know, you get to show up
Speaker 2: as yourself, and their opportunities for us here and largely
Speaker 2: which I'm so happy is the neighborhood I'm in. Every
Speaker 2: time my house sells, we all hold our breath. We're like,
Speaker 2: who bought it?
Speaker 1: Oh?
Speaker 2: Yes, so so far it's not gone. It's not gone
Speaker 2: the way of Brooklyn. Just yet. People are holding still,
Speaker 2: although we all get phone calls all day all night
Speaker 2: about our property. But we've seen what happened to Brooklyn,
Speaker 2: and people are more careful now.
Speaker 3: We looked at a house in Harlem the other day
Speaker 3: because I until recently had never lived I had lived
Speaker 3: in predominantly white communities, and it's swearing. You just get
Speaker 3: to a certain age where you're like, I don't want
Speaker 3: to have to justify my existence every day and look
Speaker 3: over my shoulder. And when the house owner opened the
Speaker 3: house and saw that I was black, they were so happy,
Speaker 3: and I was like, oh yeah. Someone else actually ended
Speaker 3: up buying it because I wasn't ready to move as
Speaker 3: quickly enough.
Speaker 1: But I totally, hey, come on up to Greenberg West,
Speaker 1: just the historically black community. I had the same experience.
Speaker 1: The realtor was like, please buy this house. Black neighborhood,
Speaker 1: but gentrifying is coming, all right. I'm on the I'm
Speaker 1: on the air with two New York on air. I'm
Speaker 1: with two New York Times best selling authors and I
Speaker 1: can't not And I'm working on my first book, Roxanne
Speaker 1: with Hashet with Legacy Lit, incredible publisher. Any tips writ
Speaker 1: It's non fiction, but I'm just wondering heading into my
Speaker 1: first baby. Have you started the book I started? I'm
Speaker 1: like three chapters in.
Speaker 3: Good you know, write the book you want to write
Speaker 3: because your name is on the cover. Yes, and more.
Speaker 3: Do you have a black editor?
Speaker 1: I do? Christian Trumpman. What she's amazing.
Speaker 3: I actually just got my first black editor because my
Speaker 3: longtime editor left HarperCollins excited. I've never had a black
Speaker 3: editor for books before I.
Speaker 1: Got two black editors.
Speaker 2: Oh over tever.
Speaker 1: Look at like no, no, but look at Legacy Krishan
Speaker 1: is the publisher of her own imprint at Hashet, and
Speaker 1: she is just doing the damn thing.
Speaker 3: I love that.
Speaker 1: But more about you go ahead?
Speaker 3: No, I just and I think Tiffany would agree, but
Speaker 3: I would be curious to hear what Tiffany says as well.
Speaker 3: But it's your book, yes, And oftentimes people I always
Speaker 3: take editorial feedback. I'll start by saying that because I've
Speaker 3: been very lucky to have very good editors, and editors
Speaker 3: generally are trying to protect you from yourself, and they
Speaker 3: can see things that you can't see because you're too
Speaker 3: close to the work. So I really really believe in
Speaker 3: the importance of listening to editors. But and this is
Speaker 3: I have my own imprint at Grove Atlantic, and this
Speaker 3: is what I tell my authors. I already have my
Speaker 3: own books, so I have some ideas about what your
Speaker 3: book could be, but it's your book, and so you
Speaker 3: want to stick to your guns. Also, if it is
Speaker 3: at all possible, and it isn't for most people, myself
Speaker 3: included most of the time hire an independent publicist. I
Speaker 3: did to support your efforts because excuse me, it's hard
Speaker 3: to sell them. It's just really hard to sell books,
Speaker 3: very hard to sell books, and so you need all
Speaker 3: the help making it look very hard.
Speaker 1: But I believe it kind of no one.
Speaker 2: I absolutely agree that that it wasn't a big fight.
Speaker 2: My editor was not black, and certainly there were certain
Speaker 2: things that you know, it was a lot of great feedback,
Speaker 2: but there's sometain things that I'm like, I hear what
Speaker 2: you're saying. But that's one thing I do know is
Speaker 2: the audience that I'm trying to reach, and so I
Speaker 2: was determined that the book was going to sound like
Speaker 2: me feel like because I thought myself, one day, I'm
Speaker 2: going to be walking in Barnes and Nobles. I want
Speaker 2: to be happy with the book that I'm pulling off
Speaker 2: the shelf, regardless of what happens. You know, that fail
Speaker 2: or succeed. I want it to be because of at
Speaker 2: least it's something that I wanted to do. And so yes,
Speaker 2: fighting back when it needed to, but being open to
Speaker 2: receive feedback because there are certainly things I'm like, oh,
Speaker 2: you're right, and other things where I'm like, you're absolutely
Speaker 2: wrong on this, and the marketing component that actually was
Speaker 2: the bigger battle because their book publishers not booksellers, if
Speaker 2: I'm being all the way candid. And so I had
Speaker 2: an independent publicist and even they fought me on some
Speaker 2: of the marketing components stuff, and I was like, well,
Speaker 2: I'm here now, like I own my own business. I
Speaker 2: know a market do whatever you're going to do, but
Speaker 2: it's actually not working now. Like I'm like the playbook,
Speaker 2: they're like, Tiffany, can you talk to this new No
Speaker 2: I thought y'all said I was wrong, you know. And
Speaker 2: so they use some of the things that I, oh.
Speaker 1: They want you to coach their budding authors.
Speaker 2: Yeah, which I'm like, no, I mean I give like
Speaker 2: I have. What I did was I have a bunch
Speaker 2: of mentees and I recorded this video and created notes,
Speaker 2: so I just share that freely, but I'm not going
Speaker 2: to I don't have time for one on ones, you know.
Speaker 2: But yeah, at one point it just got to be
Speaker 2: really bad where it was just like, you know, everything
Speaker 2: with everything I wanted to do was like and it
Speaker 2: doesn't work. And I'm like well, three hundred thousand boks later,
Speaker 2: you're welcome. I'm now of course they're my besties. And
Speaker 2: the next harassment is when's the next one? I'm like,
Speaker 2: you tell me you write it?
Speaker 3: Right, like, when when is the next one? What's up?
Speaker 2: I know? But so I mean one day maybe. But
Speaker 2: even with that, that, to me, I do not consider
Speaker 2: myself a writer. I consider myself an educator. So rox side,
Speaker 2: I was a school teacher before I started my financial business,
Speaker 2: and so I told them when I have something to teach,
Speaker 2: and if that's the medium that I want to use.
Speaker 2: But I you know, I'm not I'm not someone who
Speaker 2: just writes. I mean, I kept the journal my whole life.
Speaker 2: But for me, that book was like an extension of
Speaker 2: a curriculum or a lesson planned kind of you know.
Speaker 2: And so you know, they don't understand that because they
Speaker 2: were like.
Speaker 3: Well, we'll just pay you money.
Speaker 2: I'm like, yeah, but that's actually not moving me. Well,
Speaker 2: right is if I have a new lesson that I'm
Speaker 2: like this, the student must get this. So yeah, so man,
Speaker 2: it just.
Speaker 1: Like that's why we love you, you know, just.
Speaker 2: I would just say, yeah, write the book you want
Speaker 2: to write. Expect that you're going to do have to
Speaker 2: do ninety percent of your own marketing, and it's actually
Speaker 2: harder than writing the books. So bookle up.
Speaker 1: Got my own podcasts that helps?
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it does. And like I don't know, Like.
Speaker 3: I'm gonna tell you what podcast rock Sanne. I used
Speaker 3: to love it my podcast, so I did. It was
Speaker 3: a company that was a startup and they decided to
Speaker 3: create a walled garden for their podcasts, and they did
Speaker 3: so so long after people were used to getting free
Speaker 3: podcasts that I'm not quite sure it was going to work.
Speaker 3: Then they eventually opened up the garden and so podcasts
Speaker 3: would be exclusive for the first week and then it
Speaker 3: would go out wide. And yeah, they were going to
Speaker 3: renew the podcast, but I think they sort of just
Speaker 3: ran out of money and had to sort of stick
Speaker 3: with They're sort of what they felt was their centerpiece podcast.
Speaker 3: So you know, these things happen. I'm gonna probably do
Speaker 3: a podcast again at some point, but we'll see you when.
Speaker 1: And yeah, I mean, I think writing is one thing,
Speaker 1: but I don't know, not every writer is someone you
Speaker 1: also want to like hear talk all day long, Like
Speaker 1: I don't know, any year, I don't know, you always
Speaker 1: give me something new to think about. And I do
Speaker 1: have to thank you because I read what is his name?
Speaker 1: Crosby Razor Blade Tears. I believe you talked about cos Cosby, Yes,
Speaker 1: and I started reading his novels because I heard them
Speaker 1: on your show.
Speaker 3: I mean, that man can write his ass off. Why
Speaker 3: is nice?
Speaker 1: In your head? Do you picture who the celebrity who
Speaker 1: like the actor would be to play them? Because other
Speaker 1: than Addris Elba, like, who are you picturing in that role?
Speaker 3: I'm gonna have to think about it because I'm thinking tall,
Speaker 3: dark and handsome, which there are many, there are many,
Speaker 3: but like he has to have a certain demeanor.
Speaker 1: That's fine, We'll have something else to talk about when
Speaker 1: you know.
Speaker 3: Time, I'll just be like, guess what, I finally cast
Speaker 3: that role for you?
Speaker 2: Thanks?
Speaker 1: But yeah, excellent author TIF if you have an essay, Crosby.
Speaker 2: No, thank you so much for coming on our show.
Speaker 3: Of course, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2: Thanks for saying thank you. Wow wow wow wow wow.
Speaker 1: Now you guys see why I'm crying.
Speaker 2: It was just so genuine and kind, which that's where
Speaker 2: we hope that you took away that what I really
Speaker 2: love most about that interview is that you got to
Speaker 2: see that I think we live in a world everything
Speaker 2: is so black and white and waksan and gay lives
Speaker 2: in the gray. Yes, that's what you know.
Speaker 1: That's a very eloquent way of saying what I was
Speaker 1: trying to say.
Speaker 2: And it just feels like okay, because the truth and
Speaker 2: that we're all in the gray. It's supposed to judge
Speaker 2: yourself for not being black and white and ever no,
Speaker 2: She's just like, no, we're human. Doctor Green would say,
Speaker 2: so we're gonna punish ourselves for being human whenever, Like
Speaker 2: I have like some sort of back and forth with
Speaker 2: myself and I'm not really sure. And she's like, so
Speaker 2: you're human, and so I think this interview just helped
Speaker 2: to illustrate that you're not alone in your humanness. And
Speaker 2: so it just was beautiful. Mandy, what do you think?
Speaker 1: I think they say never meet your heroes, And I'm
Speaker 1: really happy that I got to prove that wrong.
Speaker 2: The line that could determine that's a lie, a lie
Speaker 2: at least if.
Speaker 1: You're going to meet them, meet them on brown ambition.
Speaker 1: So Tiffany can help carry the conversation while you are
Speaker 1: no internally losing it.
Speaker 2: I feel we should call it Meet your Heroes. It's okay,
Speaker 2: I don't.
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank y'all for listening, and I hope that we
Speaker 1: did a good job. I don't remember. I'll have to
Speaker 1: listen to it back. I do remember Tiffany trying to
Speaker 1: wrap it up halfway through, no, because I just I would.
Speaker 2: Look at the time, like, what's our timeframe?
Speaker 1: Oh gosh, I said, now she's gonna block my bosson No.
Speaker 3: I'm I just I'm sorry.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I was like, are we supposed to stop it too?
Speaker 2: I was just sure, so now that was I'm glad
Speaker 2: that that did not work. Mandy was like, girl, I
Speaker 2: don't know if she talked about anyway, which I.
Speaker 1: Love anyway, so I have more question.
Speaker 2: Yes, please share this episode if you enjoy it, do go.
Speaker 1: Get Rock Sanness books and tell her ba fam that
Speaker 1: we sent you if you don't already have them, her
Speaker 1: audiobook for Hunger, get her original Bad Feminists which put
Speaker 1: her on the map. Just get them. Okay. She has
Speaker 1: a lot of stuff on the internet that you can consume,
Speaker 1: a podcast, essays, stuff you can read for free, but
Speaker 1: go buy the woman's books. Because the blood, sweat, tears, agony,
Speaker 1: the pain, the passion, all of it. Oh God, it's
Speaker 1: so good. It's so good. And we got to support
Speaker 1: our living legends.
Speaker 3: Is how I feel Living Legends? Yes?
Speaker 2: Yes, And if you please, we always asked for you
Speaker 2: to go ahead and leave a review wherever you listen
Speaker 2: to podcasts, especially Apple podcast reviews on how we get seen,
Speaker 2: heard and shared, and we can continue the good work
Speaker 2: and have more amazing people like rock Sayanne on all
Speaker 2: right b a fan, We love you, chating to love you.
Speaker 1: Bye,