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Speaker 1: To support There Are No Girls on the Internet and

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Speaker 1: get ad free bonus content. Subscribe to our Patreon. Big

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Speaker 1: thanks to Molina, Valerie, m Karen J. Schadenfreud and CDE

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Speaker 1: for being our first few patrons. Join us at patreon

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Speaker 1: dot com, slash Tangoti or check the link in our description.

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Speaker 2: I was having a conversation in the moment, and then

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Speaker 2: it became a conversation of the moment.

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Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet, as a production

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Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd and this

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Speaker 1: is there Are No Girls on the Internet. So to

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Speaker 1: really understand where we're headed next when it comes to

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Speaker 1: platforms and internet discourse, we first need to really understand

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Speaker 1: and reckon with where we've been, and that need is

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Speaker 1: incredibly salient when it comes to online feminist discourse. Back

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Speaker 1: in twenty thirteen, online feminism was still in its girl

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Speaker 1: Boss era. It was the era of Leslie Nope and

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Speaker 1: notorious RBG T shirts bought on Etsy well meaning, sure,

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Speaker 1: but perhaps not the most inclusive. Would it champion black women,

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Speaker 1: poor women, trans women, and if these women were justifiably

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Speaker 1: angry about not having been included in the movement, would

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Speaker 1: that brand of feminism make room for that anger. Ten

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Speaker 1: years ago, writer Mickey Kendall had had enough. She started

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Speaker 1: the hashtag solidarity is for White Women on Twitter, and

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Speaker 1: it took off in a way that's almost kind of

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Speaker 1: hard to imagine here in twenty twenty three, Solidarity is

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Speaker 1: for White Women was meant to pull back the curtain

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Speaker 1: and expose the ways that white feminism had left so

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Speaker 1: many black and brown women to fend for ourselves. In

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Speaker 1: exposing this, Mickey Kendall changed the face of online feminism,

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Speaker 1: but it didn't necessarily make her well liked by the

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Speaker 1: people she was calling out. But for Mickey, if being

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Speaker 1: liked by everyone is the cost of being able to

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Speaker 1: speak her truth, that it's not worth it.

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Speaker 2: I was the most unpopular popular girl in feminism, and

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Speaker 2: I know how that sounds, but it was like I

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Speaker 2: was the mean black girl of sixth grade. And it

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Speaker 2: was hilarious to me because I have a life offline

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Speaker 2: and I have friends and things like that. But the

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Speaker 2: things that I could say to make people mad that

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Speaker 2: were perfectly innocuous. Everyone wanted me to know relatively regularly

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Speaker 2: of that like RBG shirt whatever kind of into feminism.

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Speaker 2: So I was never gonna write for Jezebel that I

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Speaker 2: was killing my career or whatever everyone want me to

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Speaker 2: know these things. And the whole time I worked for

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Speaker 2: the federal government, I had a regular job, so I

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Speaker 2: wasn't sure what career I was killing right by saying things.

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Speaker 2: And then I had all of these black and brown,

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Speaker 2: all of these other people who were fine, we got

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Speaker 2: along great, but there was like a small core group

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Speaker 2: of predominantly white, not entirely a predominantly white feminists who

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Speaker 2: really wanted me to know that I was mean to

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Speaker 2: them at regular intervals. And I understood the performance on display,

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Speaker 2: and then I just was like, well, I guess you're

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Speaker 2: going to get your feelings her today is You'll be

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Speaker 2: all right.

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Speaker 1: In twenty thirteen, MPR does a piece about the hashtag

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Speaker 1: Mickey created. They include responses from prominent online feminists, including

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Speaker 1: a white feminist. Kendall specifically called out for failing to

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Speaker 1: show up for black women. Now the piece was a

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Speaker 1: response to something that she created, but they didn't even

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Speaker 1: include her. There was pushback so much so that NPR

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Speaker 1: was forced to address the oversight, saying Kendall kicked it

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Speaker 1: off and we should have asked Kendall to participate from

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Speaker 1: the beginning. That was our mistake. NPR eventually invites Kendall

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Speaker 1: to participate in the conversation, where she writes, this is

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Speaker 1: a conversation after consent because sometimes the political is personal.

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Speaker 3: Now, there's really no way.

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Speaker 1: To engage with conflict as a black woman publicly without

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Speaker 1: the stigma of angry or mean clinging to you wherever

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Speaker 1: you go like smoke. A year later, Mickey is back

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Speaker 1: at NPR as part of a feminist roundtable in the

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Speaker 1: wake of a piece examining whether online feminism is too toxic,

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Speaker 1: too mean, and in fact, a big part of the

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Speaker 1: piece examines whether Mickey herself is mean or not. One

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Speaker 1: of the questions that comes up is basically, Micky, do

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Speaker 1: you think that you're a bully?

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Speaker 3: And your answer is spot on.

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Speaker 1: You're basically like you know you can can people feel

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Speaker 1: however they're going to feel about the things I have

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Speaker 1: to say and the frustrations that I have. Sure, but

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Speaker 1: we're also at a time when people are being taught dosed,

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Speaker 1: trans people are being threatened.

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Speaker 3: Your answer almost kind.

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Speaker 1: Of feels like looking into this crystal ball of horrible

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Speaker 1: things to come, where we have people who are you know,

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Speaker 1: losing their rights, being threatened, being killed, and there's always

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Speaker 1: going to be this subsection of people who are like

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Speaker 1: are they being nice enough about it? Though?

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Speaker 3: When they talk about it?

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Speaker 2: So funny story that roundtable happens basically because the Internet

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Speaker 2: bullied in PR, and not even the Eye bullied in PR.

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Speaker 2: The Internet bullied in PR. Right, So there's that. And

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Speaker 2: then because INPR was going to have that roundtable about

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Speaker 2: me without me, if that makes sense, And there's been

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Speaker 2: several things already, and I was astonished at how just

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Speaker 2: stupid the complaints were. And like, listen, I'm never going

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Speaker 2: to tell you I'm a nice person, right. I actually

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Speaker 2: explicitly tell people if I had a brand, it would

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Speaker 2: be affable asshole. Right. But also, it took absolutely nothing,

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Speaker 2: in an era of doxing of harassment, to hurt the

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Speaker 2: feelings of some of these people. And I do mean

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Speaker 2: saying well, no, you're wrong, that's a really shitty thing

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Speaker 2: to say. And they were like, you are so mean

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Speaker 2: to me. Okay, you're still wrong, cry about it, and

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Speaker 2: we're just not gonna talk about how you're fucking up

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Speaker 2: right here. And it is like this forecast of how

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Speaker 2: we get here? Right where instead of us having what

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Speaker 2: would be a perfectly normal conversation flex we're putting in

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Speaker 2: a perfectly normal conversation about what is happening politically. We

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Speaker 2: spend a lot of time, years in fact, on whether

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Speaker 2: or not it was being said civilly enough, politely enough.

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Speaker 2: We needed to work with people who were big. It's

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Speaker 2: all of this stuff about you know, coddling assholes that

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Speaker 2: I still am not clear where it was supposed to

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Speaker 2: get us, because it seems to have gotten us here.

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Speaker 2: And now the same people who said it was important

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Speaker 2: not to say these things are going on. How did

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Speaker 2: we get here? Well, Susan, it started with you saying

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Speaker 2: that it was perfectly okay to not fight for people

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Speaker 2: to have workplace protections if they were tramped right. We

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Speaker 2: had to hear all about your gender criticism or your

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Speaker 2: discomfort with knowing that people that were not you exist,

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Speaker 2: and so that's how we end up here. And then

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Speaker 2: on top of that, you had this like wild and

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Speaker 2: wacky idea that anyone who pushed back needed to do

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Speaker 2: so with a plate of cookies and a cup of

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Speaker 2: warm milk and ask you daintily, pretty pretty pleased to

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Speaker 2: care about someone's human rights. So now we're here, Well.

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Speaker 1: I do think that it's kind of gotten us to

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Speaker 1: where we are today and where we might be headed

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Speaker 1: in the future. You know, so much of this kind

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Speaker 1: of both sides ask nicely coddling rhetoric. Your work does

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Speaker 1: a great job of calling out institutions and individuals with

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Speaker 1: power who maybe do have good intentions and that maybe

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Speaker 1: you know, I admire or like, but that can let

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Speaker 1: cozy relationships that they have dictate who gets included and

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Speaker 1: who gets left out. You know, if I'm an NPR editor,

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Speaker 1: maybe I'm just reaching out to folks in my network,

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Speaker 1: the folks that I have an existing relationship with, without

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Speaker 1: really seeing or examining how that choice ends up shaping

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Speaker 1: who gets to have a voice and can result in

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Speaker 1: something like someone being excluded from a conversation they started.

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Speaker 2: Oh, And it's funny because I remember at the time

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Speaker 2: people kept saying things like that, and I kept not

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Speaker 2: even arguing, but I kept pointing out that the well

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Speaker 2: I knew them, I didn't know you of it all

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Speaker 2: meant that if you all went to the same school,

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Speaker 2: or you hung out in the same circles, how are

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Speaker 2: you an expert in anyone else's experience if the only

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Speaker 2: people you talked to were your neighbors. Right. Was fascinating

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Speaker 2: to watch because I knew, as several people now do,

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Speaker 2: that if you are talking about some of this class

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Speaker 2: of feminists, they're married to hedge fund managers or whatever,

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Speaker 2: they come from money. Right. And I knew back then

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Speaker 2: and obviously now know that some of the conversations we

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Speaker 2: were having around race and class, it was like I

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Speaker 2: was having a conversation with someone who with both their

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Speaker 2: hand tied behind their back in terms of comprehending the

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Speaker 2: stacks because they'd never been poor.

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Speaker 1: I don't think I ever really thought about the way

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Speaker 1: that feminism and what it was and who it was

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Speaker 1: for had been largely defined by this like white this

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Speaker 1: like very well meeting white, comfortable, white lady class, you know,

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Speaker 1: and like I don't think until honestly, I think it

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Speaker 1: was really your hashtag solid Areas for white women that

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Speaker 1: like broke something open in our culture that allowed us

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Speaker 1: to see it and give us a language and point

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Speaker 1: to it and talk about it and really start confronting it.

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Speaker 2: It's funny. One of the people when that hashtag happened,

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Speaker 2: one of them said, I wonder how the world is

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Speaker 2: going to feel when they realize the person who changed

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Speaker 2: the face of feminism also likes cat gifts on Tumblr.

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Speaker 2: And I just about died laughing. And I was like, well,

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Speaker 2: what can I tell you? I'm a woman of many

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Speaker 2: tastes or something like that. And honestly, what happens is

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Speaker 2: that we kept talking around the circles of feminism, right

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Speaker 2: around the idea that all women mattered, but some women

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Speaker 2: matter more kind of an approach, and that some women

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Speaker 2: matter more was never explicitly stated, but it was obvious

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Speaker 2: that that was the attitude, right because if it wasn't

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Speaker 2: for that, we could talk about poverty, we could talk

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Speaker 2: about police brutality or gun violence or any of these

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Speaker 2: other topics, not as it relates to the suburbs or

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Speaker 2: as it relates to you know, Manhattan, but as it

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Speaker 2: relates to the entire rest of the country. And I

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Speaker 2: think one of the reasons that the conversation residents so

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Speaker 2: much too, because a lot of the women who wrote

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Speaker 2: out kind of defending me when people were like, oh,

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Speaker 2: she's being divisive, were low income white women who are like,

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Speaker 2: this is the first time anybody has acknowledged we exist

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Speaker 2: in forever and that we can be feminists, and that

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Speaker 2: things are happening to us that are not happening to you,

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Speaker 2: right like when we have those conversations are an anti

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Speaker 2: intellectualism in America, and that's definitely a problem. But I

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Speaker 2: also understand how it's so easy to create if all

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Speaker 2: you hear from the most prominent intellectuals who look like

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Speaker 2: you is that you don't exist, or at least you

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Speaker 2: don't exist enough for them to care about what's happening

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Speaker 2: to you, except to blame you for you know, how

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Speaker 2: you vote or whatever.

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Speaker 1: Let's take a quick break.

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Speaker 2: At our back.

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Speaker 1: Mickey was prompted to start Solidarity as for White Women

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Speaker 1: in the aftermath of the downfall of Hugo Schweitzer, a

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Speaker 1: college professor, blogger, and self described male feminist who wrote

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Speaker 1: about feminism at feminist sites like jez bell Now. Back then,

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Speaker 1: Schweitzer was kind of a big deal in online feminist spaces.

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Speaker 1: He branded himself as a bad boy turned feminist, and

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Speaker 1: on his blog wrote about his struggles with addiction, sleeping

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Speaker 1: with his college students, and trying to murder his girlfriend

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Speaker 1: by turning on a gas stove in their house. It

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Speaker 1: was feminism that turned him around and made him see

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Speaker 1: the air of his ways, so he claimed. Black women,

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Speaker 1: as we so often are, were skeptical of his rise

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Speaker 1: to feminist quasi stardom, and even more skeptical of the

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Speaker 1: white feminist online spaces that welcomed him. He had a

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Speaker 1: penchant for attacking these black women online, but none of this.

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Speaker 1: Not trying to murder his girlfriend or attacking black women

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Speaker 1: kept him from building up a platform or being welcomed

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Speaker 1: in mostly white feminist spaces. Late night on August ninth,

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Speaker 1: twenty thirteen, Schweizer has what he describes as a meltdown.

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Speaker 1: In a succession of rapid fire confession tweets, he admits

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Speaker 1: to all of this. He tells black feminists, who had

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Speaker 1: been warning about his behavior, you were right. I was

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Speaker 1: awful to you because you were in the way. He

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Speaker 1: also admits that he did not have the credentials to

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Speaker 1: be teaching college courses on feminism and that he quote

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Speaker 1: built his career as a well known online male feminist

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Speaker 1: on fraudulent pretenses. Now, while this was all going down,

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Speaker 1: white feminists who were friendly with Schweitzer expressed worry about

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Speaker 1: his mental health and future job prospects. But where was

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Speaker 1: the concern for the black women that he admitted attacking online.

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Speaker 1: Where was the concern for the students that he admitted

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Speaker 1: having inappropriate sexual relationships with. Where was the accountability for

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Speaker 1: letting someone like Schweitzer rise up in the ranks of

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Speaker 1: online feminism.

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Speaker 3: None of it.

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Speaker 1: Set right with Mickey. Solidarity is for White women? She tweeted,

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Speaker 1: and it was like she had broken something open. What

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Speaker 1: started is Mickey's response to the movement overlooking black way

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Speaker 1: became a rallying cry, exposing all the tensions and fractures

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Speaker 1: in feminist spaces online. Do you think if you tweeted

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Speaker 1: solidarity is for White women today in twenty twenty three,

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Speaker 1: it would take off the way that it did back

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Speaker 1: in twenty thirteen.

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Speaker 2: I think in theory it couldn't. But in execution, what

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Speaker 2: will happen is that Twitter will suppress the hashtag because

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Speaker 2: the other reason I think solidary twitterment happens is that

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Speaker 2: it is at the beginning of the concept of hashtags

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Speaker 2: as calls, as a call to action. So Twitter didn't

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Speaker 2: know what to do with me right, Most of the

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Speaker 2: viral hashtag phenomenon hadn't studying it. I'm not saying I

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Speaker 2: actually started it, but I'm one of the very early

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Speaker 2: ones where that happened organically and Twitter didn't know what

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Speaker 2: it had either. Twitter was still figuring itself out. Right,

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Speaker 2: Like if you were on Twitter in two thousand and nine,

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Speaker 2: you remember a very different Twitter than Twitter of today.

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Speaker 2: Right when the hashtag happened, it was still kind of

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Speaker 2: like the wild Wild West in turn of the algorithm,

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Speaker 2: because Twitter was still trying to figure out how to

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Speaker 2: make the algorithm work for advertising revenue for all of

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Speaker 2: these things. It was still mostly third party clients making

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Speaker 2: Twitter even a usable experience, right, Twitter had to buy

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Speaker 2: everybody that made Twitter possible to use.

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Speaker 1: When you first started it, did you create it thinking

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Speaker 1: this is going to like crack things open, this is

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Speaker 1: going to hit on something, or were you just having

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Speaker 1: a moment of frustration.

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Speaker 2: I was pissed off the I know you are playing

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Speaker 2: in my face of it, all right, I got very

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Speaker 2: to be honest on your twitterment comes out of a

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Speaker 2: very south side of Chicago. You are fucking with my

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Speaker 2: friend and you were playing in my face. And I

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Speaker 2: don't know who you think you're lying to, but like,

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Speaker 2: let's be real here, right. This is before the invention

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Speaker 2: of the phrase be fucking for real as a popular thing,

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Speaker 2: but it was basically that. And then in the moment

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Speaker 2: I figured I would say what I had to say,

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Speaker 2: I think I fired off probably like one hundred tweets

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Speaker 2: because Twitter were still doing the thing where they rate

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Speaker 2: limit you to tweet too much in too small a

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Speaker 2: period of time, and so I did all those tweets.

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Speaker 2: It turned into this weird juggernauge thing.

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Speaker 1: Twenty thirteen was a different time on Twitter.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: It was the platform where one off tweets could become

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Speaker 1: big news stories or global movements. Solidarity is for White

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Speaker 1: women allowed Mickey to access platforms that previously had been

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Speaker 1: closed to her. Before maybe an editor might have just

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Speaker 1: assigned the coverage of the hashtag that she created to

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Speaker 1: whoever they had on staff, or maybe just invited whoever

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Speaker 1: was already in their network to talk about it. But

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Speaker 1: now things were different. Not only was Mickey exposing the

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Speaker 1: lack of inclusion and online feminism, but also she was

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Speaker 1: pointing out the lack of inclusion and who gets to

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Speaker 1: tell a story about it, and where before her voice

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Speaker 1: was included late, almost as an afterthought, is something that

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Speaker 1: she created. Now it was unignorable. Her voice full of

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Speaker 1: all that truth and righteous anger, had to be included

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Speaker 1: in the conversation. She remembers it as a defining moment.

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Speaker 2: Like it was one of those really bizarre moments that

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Speaker 2: probably could not happen now in the same way, because

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Speaker 2: now everybody knows what you say on social media matters.

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Speaker 2: Now everybody does a lot of like careful pr constructing,

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Speaker 2: interns tweeting for you. But at the time we were

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Speaker 2: all just kind of using Twitter and thinking of a

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Speaker 2: not necessarily shouting into the void, but as just you know,

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Speaker 2: this will happen now, and then it will be ephemeral

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Speaker 2: and go away and none of these things will really matter.

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Speaker 2: We were wrong. None of the people using social media,

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Speaker 2: early social media that got it to where it is

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Speaker 2: now understood what we were doing. I'm not even gonna

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Speaker 2: say that I understood what I was doing. I was

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Speaker 2: having a conversation in the moment, and then and it

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Speaker 2: became a conversation of the moment for many topics right,

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Speaker 2: and then piled into all of that, there's this thing

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Speaker 2: where like a lot of places that had previously seemingly

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Speaker 2: been impossible for anyone to write for. We're saying we

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Speaker 2: are missing this conversation. We wanted part of this conversation.

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Speaker 2: And when they reached out to the people they were

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Speaker 2: used to reaching out to, most of them didn't have

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Speaker 2: a clue what was going on or didn't really have

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Speaker 2: anything new to say because they were in my mentions

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Speaker 2: getting yelled at. And so it was Matt Seton at

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Speaker 2: The Guardian who was the first person to invite me

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Speaker 2: to write about it for a major publication. And I

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Speaker 2: think he sent me a DM that was something like,

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Speaker 2: I know you can yell, but can you write? Wow?

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Speaker 2: And he always says I give him too much credit,

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Speaker 2: but he does not understand that there's like this very

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Speaker 2: difine moment of of I can get in a couple

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Speaker 2: of places, but nothing above a certain level. And then

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Speaker 2: I wrote for him with a piece about what was

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Speaker 2: happening for him and The Guardian byline for reasons I

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Speaker 2: will never completely understand, opened the door for me to

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Speaker 2: write for all these other places. Right. And I didn't

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Speaker 2: know anything about pitching. I didn't know anything about anything.

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Speaker 2: But what I can do is write. I have opinions.

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Speaker 2: I can write them down really fast on a topic,

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Speaker 2: and I learned pitching. I learned how to freelance kind

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Speaker 2: of in the plane while it was being while it

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Speaker 2: was in the air.

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Speaker 1: Is there a through line of you tweeting that, getting

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Speaker 1: in the Guardian and now you're doing what you do now?

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Speaker 3: Like, do you think that's.

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Speaker 1: Really the through line if you had not tweeted that,

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Speaker 1: if it had knock gone megaviral.

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Speaker 3: Do you see a world in which you would still

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Speaker 3: be in this outcome?

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Speaker 2: I actually, weirdly enough, I do. It just would have

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Speaker 2: been for a different hashtag. But I think it would

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Speaker 2: have also opened a slightly different version of this path

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Speaker 2: right where I would be known for talking about fast

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Speaker 2: tailed girls or you know, one of the other hashtags.

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Speaker 2: But we would have never had necessarily the same conversation

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Speaker 2: about white feminism and race without salaries for white women.

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Speaker 2: And in some ways that challenging and acknowledging definitely puts

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Speaker 2: me here in a very specific place where many of

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Speaker 2: the things that people think I want that I never

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Speaker 2: wanted in the first place, they would not necessarily be

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Speaker 2: trying to, you know, tell me, well, you'll never get this,

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Speaker 2: you'll never get that. In the same way, I probably

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Speaker 2: would have made more friends, and I probably also would

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Speaker 2: not have been as popular as because I think tapping

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Speaker 2: into that deep well of discontent and talking about it,

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Speaker 2: like naming it and talking about my own feelings, but

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Speaker 2: also giving people a sort of permission by proxy to

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Speaker 2: talk about their feelings had not happened before.

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Speaker 1: I remember, like watching the Hugo stuff go down. It

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Speaker 1: was just a really dark time. And one of the

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Speaker 1: things that I think your work really helped us see

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Speaker 1: was how little accountability there was for people who supported

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Speaker 1: someone who was pretty open about a disdain for black women,

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Speaker 1: you know, harassing black women in public, a literal abuser

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Speaker 1: of women first of all, that he would be able

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Speaker 1: to make a name for himself in online feminist spaces

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Speaker 1: so easily, and that people would defend him publicly when all.

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Speaker 3: Of that stuff came out.

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Speaker 1: It's still surprising to me how little accountability there was,

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Speaker 1: if not for folks like you. Do you feel that

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Speaker 1: we ever really did a reckoning a look back of

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Speaker 1: what we learned from that, Because I feel like these

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Speaker 1: things happen, people say what they're going to say, and

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Speaker 1: then everybody kind of moves on. We don't actually get

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Speaker 1: a chance to look back and learn anything. Or glean

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Speaker 1: anything about how to avoid this or what we should

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Speaker 1: be taking from this. Do you feel that we ever

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Speaker 1: had that moment?

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Speaker 2: People didn't want to have that moment. It was this

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Speaker 2: embarrassing thing where people in the middle of whatever they

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Speaker 2: were saying about me being divisive, were about this conversation

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Speaker 2: taking feminism backwards whatever, realizing after the fact, especially by

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Speaker 2: twenty sixteen, that they had been on the wrong side

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Speaker 2: of history and never wanting to look backward again. More.

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Speaker 1: After a quick break, let's get right back into it.

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Speaker 1: Mickey did the work of exposing existing tensions and fractures

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Speaker 1: that exist in our movement, but in order to heal

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Speaker 1: tensions there has to be reflection, honesty, and accountability, which

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Speaker 1: just didn't really happen. So these tensions were left to

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Speaker 1: be exploited by bad actors like the ones behind the

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Speaker 1: end Father's Day hoax to inflame tensions and feminist online

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Speaker 1: spaces that would take place just a year later. Something

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Speaker 1: that we have talked about quite a bit on this

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Speaker 1: podcast is sort of what came immediately after things like

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Speaker 1: the disinformation troll campaign hashtag and Father's Day and I

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Speaker 1: think something that solidarity is for white women. It supposed

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Speaker 1: is the reality and the rawness of these tensions between

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Speaker 1: black women, black feminists and white feminists. And I think

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Speaker 1: that bad actors, trolls, what are extremists, whatever you want

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Speaker 1: to call it, people who are interested in using social

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Speaker 1: media spaces to cause confusion and chaos. I think the

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Speaker 1: movement's lack of really taking accountability, really examining what happened,

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Speaker 1: really figuring out how we navigate the navigate around each

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Speaker 1: other and with each other. I think that you're right,

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Speaker 1: there was broadly not no interest in really doing that

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Speaker 1: and having those conversations. And thus I think that bad

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Speaker 1: actors know like, Okay, well, this is an attension that exists.

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Speaker 1: It's a tension that is being kind of danced around.

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Speaker 1: You know, everyone feels it, but no one's really People

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Speaker 1: aren't really talking about it openly because they don't want to.

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Speaker 1: We can go in and exploit it, We can go

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Speaker 1: in and like seize it and inflame it, and it

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Speaker 1: might be effective because no one's really naming it, no

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Speaker 1: one's really talking about it, nobody's really interested in taking

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Speaker 1: accountability for their part in it. Do you ever think

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Speaker 1: that the lack of interest in real accountability and looking

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Speaker 1: backward and taking stock just leaves these communities online vulnerable

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Speaker 1: to people who who will step in and exploit and

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Speaker 1: talk about it, just not in the way that maybe

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Speaker 1: it's going to be helpful.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I think it appts resolutely. It's one of those

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Speaker 2: things with just how we got all those feminists talking

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Speaker 2: to like Meatleianopolis and engaging sort of disingenuously with the

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Speaker 2: idea that Megan Kelly was not necessarily racist, right, because

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Speaker 2: everyone started to kind of go, well, you know, people

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Speaker 2: can be swayed, people can be wooed. And I wonder

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Speaker 2: often about the people who at that point kept saying,

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00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:36,480
Speaker 2: we have to reach out to the other side, because

439
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:42,200
Speaker 2: the other side was very clearly, very cogently planning to

440
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:47,600
Speaker 2: sow discord, very much trying to widen riffs, and also

441
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:54,040
Speaker 2: using those conversations, those educational conversations, to boost their own platforms,

442
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:59,760
Speaker 2: right because when you think back to twenty thirteen, to

443
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:03,680
Speaker 2: all they are twenty sixteen, actually even before twenty thirteen,

444
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:05,919
Speaker 2: a lot of those well I want to talk to

445
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:11,760
Speaker 2: a white nationalist, a person who identifies as a white

446
00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:15,200
Speaker 2: separatist whatever. You remember all of those news stories, all

447
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 2: of the like inside the mind of a clansman kind

448
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:24,880
Speaker 2: of news stories. Right, for a while, nobody had ever

449
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:26,920
Speaker 2: given them a platform. I just saw this thing the

450
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 2: other day. There's an account that shills itself as like

451
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:33,760
Speaker 2: the American Nazi whatever. Right. They bought a blue check

452
00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:37,000
Speaker 2: mark on Twitter, and they have millions of followers, and

453
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:41,720
Speaker 2: they said, essentially, this never could have happened ten years ago,

454
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:43,320
Speaker 2: which is true. It wouldn't have been able to happen

455
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:46,280
Speaker 2: ten years ago. Now they can look like they're a

456
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:47,400
Speaker 2: real legitimate account.

457
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 1: I mean, kind of just gives away the game where

458
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:52,320
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, thanks to Elon Musk, I would have

459
00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:56,240
Speaker 1: never been able to build up this the legitimized platform

460
00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:58,120
Speaker 1: I have now to spread my Nazi shit.

461
00:26:58,359 --> 00:26:59,479
Speaker 3: Thanks.

462
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:04,560
Speaker 2: That is essentially what it said, essentially. And you know,

463
00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:09,680
Speaker 2: we've seen several times now, even when we're talking about

464
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:12,480
Speaker 2: at protests and things, and we've been talking for years

465
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:20,560
Speaker 2: about inside police circles, the number of very clearly white nationalists,

466
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:23,760
Speaker 2: white supremacist whatever we're calling ourselves this week, white separatists

467
00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:30,480
Speaker 2: police officers, complete with the visible ink, right, And when

468
00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:33,639
Speaker 2: we bring it up and people say, oh, well, you know,

469
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:36,480
Speaker 2: what can you do? And it's kind of like, actually,

470
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 2: several years ago, we were trying to get people to

471
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:40,760
Speaker 2: do something about it, and you said that that wasn't

472
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:43,679
Speaker 2: a feminist issue. You said that that was just some

473
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:49,120
Speaker 2: guys online. They were harmless. You said, whatever, now here

474
00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:54,199
Speaker 2: we are and I need you to not even just

475
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:57,760
Speaker 2: take accountability. I need you to start swinging, not still

476
00:27:57,800 --> 00:27:59,680
Speaker 2: talk about how we can reach them.

477
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 1: Twitter was where people who were not traditionally centered or

478
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:06,919
Speaker 1: heard could really build power. Black Lives Matter championed racial

479
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:10,439
Speaker 1: justice in the wake of police violence. Survivors started me

480
00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:13,680
Speaker 1: Too to push back against sexual violence. So when Elon

481
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:16,600
Speaker 1: Musk bought Twitter, one of my first questions was, what

482
00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:19,680
Speaker 1: does this mean for the future of marginalized communities being

483
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:23,000
Speaker 1: able to build power and start movements. It's a fair question,

484
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 1: but Mickey reminds us that our communities are resilient and

485
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:28,320
Speaker 1: that we'll always find a way.

486
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:29,840
Speaker 3: How do you.

487
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:33,000
Speaker 1: See the state that Twitter is in, and sort of

488
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:35,879
Speaker 1: social media more broadly, how do you see that impacting

489
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:39,720
Speaker 1: marginalized community's ability to build up power and build up

490
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:41,240
Speaker 1: a voice.

491
00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:45,040
Speaker 2: I think in some ways, and this is going to

492
00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:48,680
Speaker 2: sound real strange, but the existence of TikTok and all

493
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:53,720
Speaker 2: the competing other sites will help you master it on.

494
00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:58,480
Speaker 2: All of these things will help marginalized communities find a

495
00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 2: place to rebuild the networks that they had on Twitter

496
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:08,560
Speaker 2: for some levels of rebuild here, but only because Twitter

497
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:13,280
Speaker 2: was already not particularly usable for community anymore. Once all

498
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:15,520
Speaker 2: eyes were on Twitter, it seemed like all the time.

499
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 2: I remember that like weird period of time where anything

500
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:20,680
Speaker 2: you tweeted could wind up on your television screen that

501
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:23,600
Speaker 2: night is news or in an article.

502
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:25,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, that was a wild time.

503
00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:29,720
Speaker 2: Right. People have already started to kind of migrate away

504
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:33,480
Speaker 2: from Twitter. Right, Twitter's popularity as a social media app

505
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:36,080
Speaker 2: was on the decline. People were just abandoning their Twitter

506
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:39,320
Speaker 2: accounts whatever and moving to discord and all these other places.

507
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:41,960
Speaker 2: And so I think it will make it more difficult

508
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:47,040
Speaker 2: to kick off an initial group. But also in some

509
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:50,840
Speaker 2: ways now it is easier to have those conversations without

510
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:55,280
Speaker 2: necessarily as much trolling. This weird split where like, yes,

511
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:57,800
Speaker 2: the loss of Twitter is a big deal, but also

512
00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:03,360
Speaker 2: Twitter was already being lost before this because the focus

513
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 2: hyper focused on black Twitter, but also generally the focus

514
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:10,880
Speaker 2: on whether those people over there talking about together had

515
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 2: made people uncomfortable having certain conversations in public.

516
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:17,680
Speaker 1: I think Sadet Harry has a great piece and wired

517
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:20,720
Speaker 1: that kind of speaks to this of like the feeling

518
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 1: of kind of the inherent feeling of being both othered

519
00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:28,720
Speaker 1: and also watched. Like I definitely felt that when it

520
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:30,720
Speaker 1: came to being part of black Twitter for a while,

521
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:34,160
Speaker 1: where you definitely feel like these people over here are

522
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 1: doing something distinct of their own and let's lurk at it.

523
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:40,440
Speaker 1: It kind of in a lot of ways you wanted

524
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 1: to be having these insult conversations with them, but the

525
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:44,280
Speaker 1: feeling that they were happening and a bit of a

526
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:45,880
Speaker 1: fish bowl digitally.

527
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 2: And that I think that level of surveillance culture is

528
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:55,720
Speaker 2: not something I'm going to miss, right, I had already

529
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 2: Twitter for me had been rendered largely unusable for like

530
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:02,720
Speaker 2: socializing with friends kinds of things a while before this,

531
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:06,239
Speaker 2: because and not even in a major way, but in

532
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 2: a no matter what, there was always someone who had thoughts, feelings, opinions, right,

533
00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 2: and as like the API is being altered to prevent

534
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:18,520
Speaker 2: a lot of third party clients. I know, like today

535
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:20,760
Speaker 2: someone was saying that one of the things that made

536
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:24,680
Speaker 2: Twitter usable for visually impaired users, it's no longer going

537
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:29,840
Speaker 2: to work. Hearing impaired users are going to have slightly

538
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 2: more time, but some of the tools they use, it's

539
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:34,080
Speaker 2: not going to be there anymore, things like that, right,

540
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:40,120
Speaker 2: all text, all of these things. And I feel like

541
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:44,480
Speaker 2: Twitter served a very high level and low level sort

542
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:48,000
Speaker 2: of purpose. But also we are going to have to

543
00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:51,200
Speaker 2: go back to the pre Twitter days of jumping from

544
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:55,200
Speaker 2: platform to platform for a while, right, we got really

545
00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:58,080
Speaker 2: comfortable with Twitter and Facebook kind of being seen as

546
00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:01,280
Speaker 2: stable entities. But I don't know when the last time

547
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:04,200
Speaker 2: I went on Facebook for any real meaningful purpose. I

548
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 2: don't like the interface, and on Twitter, that surveillance level

549
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:13,240
Speaker 2: had made it so that you were kind of tweeting

550
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:15,240
Speaker 2: a little looking at what people were talking about, and

551
00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:17,600
Speaker 2: leaving for a lot of users who are you know,

552
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 2: like I'm a power user because I used to use

553
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:24,440
Speaker 2: Twitter all day long. I would send hundreds of tweet today,

554
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:27,200
Speaker 2: chatting it out, talking to people, having thoughts on in

555
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:31,520
Speaker 2: public whatever. Because of all of the the eyes on me,

556
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:35,880
Speaker 2: which always sounds slightly paranoid, But because of that, I

557
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:40,240
Speaker 2: had already scaled back my Twitter usage heavily, not even

558
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 2: in purpose, not even like, oh I'm going to keep

559
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:46,280
Speaker 2: these things to myself. It was just annoying. And now

560
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:49,520
Speaker 2: with what's what's happening? How much platform time do I

561
00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:52,360
Speaker 2: want to spend with trolls? How useful is it?

562
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:55,640
Speaker 3: I thought you're in your piece for MIT Tech Review,

563
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 3: I think that you.

564
00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:57,680
Speaker 1: I can't remember exactly how you put it, but you

565
00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:00,320
Speaker 1: had it like it's not it's not a plaque form

566
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 1: to live one's life, you know, It's like it's not

567
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:06,120
Speaker 1: a place where you're where you're necessarily going to look

568
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 1: for connection.

569
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 3: And it sounded like an even in your personal life.

570
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:13,400
Speaker 1: That Twitter just wasn't it for you anymore, that like

571
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:16,320
Speaker 1: you just weren't interested that you described it. When you

572
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:18,160
Speaker 1: when you do show up there, it feels like it's

573
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:20,480
Speaker 1: out of habit more than anything else. It's not like

574
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:22,760
Speaker 1: you're going there looking for connection.

575
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:26,720
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, because I can tell you a really stupid

576
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:30,440
Speaker 2: story about how I got I got done with using

577
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:34,320
Speaker 2: Twitter socially. I was talking to a friend of mine

578
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:38,080
Speaker 2: and we were talking about a workout routine that we

579
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:44,400
Speaker 2: had both tried, and someone briefly tried to turn that

580
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:50,400
Speaker 2: into like pro like fat phobic. Oh this is really

581
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:55,479
Speaker 2: fat phobic. Having this conversation in public, and we had

582
00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:58,280
Speaker 2: said nothing about anyone's bodies, not even really our own,

583
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 2: other than the usual uh yeah, I tried blah blah blah.

584
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:03,920
Speaker 2: It was really rough, kind of you know, he talked

585
00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:07,040
Speaker 2: about things, and I couldn't figure out how we got there.

586
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 2: And then there's this entire conversation happening in my mentions

587
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:16,760
Speaker 2: about whether or not this conversation with my friend about

588
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:20,720
Speaker 2: a workout we had both tried was really about something else,

589
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:23,160
Speaker 2: and I thought I have hit the point where we

590
00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:28,040
Speaker 2: are reading into things. I always wondered how that would feel. Oh,

591
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:30,960
Speaker 2: I don't care for it, right, And so then me

592
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:33,720
Speaker 2: and my friends started to have those conversations not on public.

593
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 2: On Twitter, we s don't have them, We just have

594
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:38,839
Speaker 2: them in a group chat, And as more things moved

595
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:44,640
Speaker 2: to the group chat, I have a hustling, bustling series

596
00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:48,840
Speaker 2: of group chats going on. I don't necessarily think to

597
00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:50,520
Speaker 2: go to Twitter in the same way in my personal

598
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:56,720
Speaker 2: life anymore. I don't even necessarily react to everything on Twitter,

599
00:34:56,760 --> 00:34:59,960
Speaker 2: because sometimes news stories pass by, or someone tweeting something

600
00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 2: passes by, and in my brain, I think this does

601
00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:07,040
Speaker 2: not pass the smell test. But It's not worth getting

602
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:09,239
Speaker 2: into it with people who are buying in on the

603
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:12,080
Speaker 2: spot to whatever is being said, because they're going to

604
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:14,360
Speaker 2: find out in a few minutes or a few hours

605
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:16,160
Speaker 2: that they were wrong, and they're going to want to

606
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:19,040
Speaker 2: erase all of their tweets about this, all of their

607
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:24,839
Speaker 2: engagement with this, you know. And I don't even need

608
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:28,080
Speaker 2: to jump in and participate. I can have this conversation

609
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:29,719
Speaker 2: with people who actually have a conversation.

610
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:33,080
Speaker 1: Oh, this is something I have absolutely felt that the

611
00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:35,680
Speaker 1: story that you told about the workout with your friend.

612
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:40,360
Speaker 1: I have this theory that, like so something, we've reached

613
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:46,640
Speaker 1: a point where we have visibility into too many conversations

614
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:50,759
Speaker 1: between strangers where people are just injecting their own and

615
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 1: like injecting and projecting a lot of their own stuff

616
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:57,600
Speaker 1: onto the conversations of.

617
00:35:57,560 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 3: Strangers in ways that if you did it in real.

618
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,120
Speaker 1: Life, if you were in a cafeteria and two people

619
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:04,319
Speaker 1: were talking about a workout they had done, and I

620
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:06,359
Speaker 1: walked up to their table and sat down and said,

621
00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:09,160
Speaker 1: this conversation is pat phobic and maybe it's actually about

622
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:11,719
Speaker 1: something else altogether, you would think that was.

623
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:12,960
Speaker 3: The weirdest thing in the world.

624
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:15,120
Speaker 1: And I think that we've I do think that we've

625
00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:18,520
Speaker 1: hit a point where these platforms cease to be useful

626
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:20,879
Speaker 1: when they when they are when they feel this way,

627
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:24,279
Speaker 1: because because it's just not it's not an enjoy it

628
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:27,000
Speaker 1: doesn't not a way to connect with people that feels enjoyable,

629
00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:30,279
Speaker 1: that level of surveillance, every little thing that you say,

630
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:32,320
Speaker 1: feeling like someone's going to take it the wrong way

631
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:35,719
Speaker 1: or project their own their own stuff onto it.

632
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:39,680
Speaker 2: Well, and this is the thing, because I definitely started

633
00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:44,120
Speaker 2: to feel like and a certain point, is this about

634
00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:48,640
Speaker 2: what I said? Or am I just where you put

635
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:53,600
Speaker 2: your feelings? And I think a lot of it is

636
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:58,520
Speaker 2: just where they put their feelings right, And that's the case.

637
00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:00,960
Speaker 2: I don't I don't need to be here for this.

638
00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:03,600
Speaker 2: And I think that, and then I think about how

639
00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:06,600
Speaker 2: many of my friends who like I have a friend

640
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:08,120
Speaker 2: who pointed out to me one day I ever tweeted

641
00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:10,359
Speaker 2: something she said because I thought it was funny, and

642
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 2: she says, I know you didn't mean any harm, but

643
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:14,799
Speaker 2: can you not retweet me because I always end up

644
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:17,680
Speaker 2: with all of this crap in my mentions And I

645
00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:20,359
Speaker 2: was very apologetic, offeratedly tweet and she was like, no, no, No,

646
00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:23,359
Speaker 2: it's not like it's your fault. I just know your

647
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:29,600
Speaker 2: level of visibility is too much for me, and I

648
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:31,919
Speaker 2: hadn't I you know, like the frog and boiling water.

649
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:34,600
Speaker 2: I had gotten used to it, but I hadn't thought

650
00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:36,720
Speaker 2: about what it feels like to kind of be thrust

651
00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 2: into this level of thing. And even though I was

652
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:43,120
Speaker 2: still occasionally retweet people or whatever or quote tweet them,

653
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:45,800
Speaker 2: I try to be more judicious. I'm not always successful.

654
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:47,520
Speaker 2: I always think about it, but I try to be

655
00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:52,560
Speaker 2: more judicious when I do do it, because there's this

656
00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:56,560
Speaker 2: point in the hypervisibility where I don't want people to

657
00:37:56,600 --> 00:38:02,000
Speaker 2: be having a conversation about the things they didn't say.

658
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:04,279
Speaker 2: I want to talk about the things they did say,

659
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:06,319
Speaker 2: or I have a thought about what they said kind

660
00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 2: of thing. And I don't know where we go on

661
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:12,799
Speaker 2: Twitter with that, Like I don't see a way to

662
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:14,800
Speaker 2: salvage that part at this point.

663
00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:16,960
Speaker 1: You know the way that you put that of like,

664
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 1: am I just the place where you put your feelings.

665
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:22,680
Speaker 1: I'm not super visible on any social media platform, but

666
00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:25,239
Speaker 1: I do wonder if that has something to do with

667
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:29,000
Speaker 1: you being a black woman, that do you something about

668
00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:33,239
Speaker 1: the way that you show up online for folks as

669
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:36,040
Speaker 1: a black woman, means that you are the place where

670
00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:39,440
Speaker 1: a lot of their feelings go. That, whether it's feelings

671
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:43,000
Speaker 1: of anger or wanting to call somebody out or wanting

672
00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:45,320
Speaker 1: to show you something so that you have a publicly

673
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:47,560
Speaker 1: angry reaction, and that feels a certain way for them,

674
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:51,600
Speaker 1: like we're we're you kind of aren't a real person,

675
00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:55,400
Speaker 1: You're just this abstraction online for them to project whatever

676
00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:56,239
Speaker 1: they want onto you.

677
00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:57,279
Speaker 3: Do you do you ever feel that?

678
00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:01,080
Speaker 2: Oh? Absolutely, it's one of the those things. First of all,

679
00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:03,120
Speaker 2: I had to tell people to stop sending me things

680
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:04,960
Speaker 2: for me to respond to, right, Like, for a while

681
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:07,760
Speaker 2: their people would tagged me in their arguments with random people.

682
00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:10,200
Speaker 2: I don't know you, I don't know them. I'm not

683
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:15,640
Speaker 2: joining into the middle of a conversation whatever. But also

684
00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:21,200
Speaker 2: it started to feel like I am not a person.

685
00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:25,680
Speaker 2: Oh God, so many people to go because and this

686
00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:28,520
Speaker 2: is another sort of silly story, someone was mad about

687
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:32,120
Speaker 2: something I had said. Apparently they started tweeting it about

688
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:37,960
Speaker 2: it at around three am my time. Okay, somewhere in

689
00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:41,560
Speaker 2: the following four hours they had worked themselves up to

690
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:44,080
Speaker 2: the point that you know, I was avoiding them. I

691
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:46,960
Speaker 2: was ignoring them? How dare I was? You know, a coward?

692
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:49,319
Speaker 2: Blah blah blah, And I get up, I get my

693
00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:52,239
Speaker 2: kids out the door to school. And I used to

694
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:53,879
Speaker 2: for a while on my way to work. I would,

695
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:56,279
Speaker 2: you know, far around on Twitter on the way in,

696
00:39:57,200 --> 00:40:00,680
Speaker 2: and I log on and I'm like, what is is this?

697
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:08,359
Speaker 2: Because I was asleep? It is seven am, right, what

698
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:11,120
Speaker 2: the heck are you doing? What is wrong with you?

699
00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:14,600
Speaker 2: Kind of thing? And this person who had spun themselves

700
00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:17,480
Speaker 2: into a frenzy in the middle of the night says,

701
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:22,600
Speaker 2: I completely forgot the difference in time zone. You weren't

702
00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:25,640
Speaker 2: ignoring me. I'm sorry, and ends up deleting probably like

703
00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:28,600
Speaker 2: forty tweets. But also, I had never responded to you,

704
00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:31,640
Speaker 2: and you had never thought about the fact that I

705
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:36,120
Speaker 2: wasn't awake just because you were. It didn't even occur

706
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:39,719
Speaker 2: to you. Person whose name I won't say that I

707
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:42,439
Speaker 2: was a person with a life and responsibility, so right,

708
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:46,040
Speaker 2: like had not even crossed their mind. I have a joke,

709
00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:49,080
Speaker 2: I tell friends there are no sick days on the internet,

710
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:54,680
Speaker 2: and yet in real life people take off work, So

711
00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:56,920
Speaker 2: how do we expect people to be available? Twenty four

712
00:40:56,960 --> 00:40:57,760
Speaker 2: to seven online.

713
00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:01,640
Speaker 1: It makes no sense, and yet that is how everyone

714
00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:02,200
Speaker 1: is operating.

715
00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:02,959
Speaker 3: Sometimes.

716
00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:06,360
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I've seen people get very for lack of

717
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:10,040
Speaker 2: a way of putting it, get very in their feelings

718
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:14,480
Speaker 2: about someone not being available the moment they want them

719
00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:20,840
Speaker 2: to be available online. And I sometimes have to also,

720
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:22,480
Speaker 2: and I have this whole thing I also say where

721
00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:27,200
Speaker 2: I say parasocial relationships are beating people's asses every day

722
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:32,440
Speaker 2: right where. You enjoy this person, you enjoy their content whatever,

723
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:34,600
Speaker 2: or you don't, You hate them, you hate watch whatever.

724
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:38,879
Speaker 2: You don't realize anymore that that person does not know you,

725
00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:42,560
Speaker 2: however much you feel like you know them. They don't

726
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:46,520
Speaker 2: know you. They are online on whatever their schedule is,

727
00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:49,480
Speaker 2: and the rest of their time they are doing whatever

728
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:52,480
Speaker 2: it is they're doing right, whether they've got a family,

729
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:56,120
Speaker 2: or they've got a day job, or heck, they're writing

730
00:41:56,160 --> 00:42:00,960
Speaker 2: a book or making songs whatever. People for whom the

731
00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:03,040
Speaker 2: Internet is life, and there are people for whom the

732
00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:06,359
Speaker 2: Internet is a job, and they overlap, but they are

733
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:10,640
Speaker 2: not necessarily the same people. And for people for whom

734
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:14,720
Speaker 2: the Internet is a job, there are specific times, hours,

735
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:17,200
Speaker 2: whatever that they are available and the rest of the time,

736
00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:20,480
Speaker 2: no matter how much it may frustrate you person who

737
00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:23,080
Speaker 2: perceives yourself to be in a parasocial relationship with them,

738
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:25,319
Speaker 2: they are not going to be available to And it

739
00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:28,480
Speaker 2: happens to celebrities, and we've all kind of normalized that

740
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:32,799
Speaker 2: level of parasocial relationship, but increasingly it is happening to

741
00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:40,040
Speaker 2: people just who speaks on the internet. Right, you can

742
00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:43,719
Speaker 2: get fans, followers, supporters, whatever we're calling them, just by

743
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:47,719
Speaker 2: being a person who speaks online. The problem is that

744
00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:50,760
Speaker 2: every word you say will not be the gospel truth.

745
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:53,080
Speaker 2: Everything you think will not be right for none of

746
00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:58,799
Speaker 2: us right. But also the people following you may or

747
00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:01,640
Speaker 2: may not really be paid attention to the reality that

748
00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:04,600
Speaker 2: you are a whole person. One of the things that

749
00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:08,520
Speaker 2: always sticks out to me is this idea that because

750
00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:13,200
Speaker 2: you like someone, they can never be wrong. They absolutely

751
00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:16,000
Speaker 2: can be wrong. Did that make sense outside of my head?

752
00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:17,280
Speaker 3: It made so much sense.

753
00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:20,400
Speaker 1: And the vibe of because I like this person, I

754
00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:23,080
Speaker 1: am team them for life. If they say anything wrong,

755
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:25,440
Speaker 1: it must be right. I don't think there's a that's

756
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:32,319
Speaker 1: gotta be one of the most dangerous toxic vibes that

757
00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:35,799
Speaker 1: we have, where I mean, I see it play out

758
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:38,279
Speaker 1: all the time and like, these are people. They're not

759
00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:40,680
Speaker 1: gonna Just because somebody had a great take or wrote

760
00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:43,120
Speaker 1: a great piece on one thing doesn't mean that you

761
00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:46,839
Speaker 1: should blindly sign up for their takes on everything. And

762
00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:49,760
Speaker 1: I'm like, be invested in them never being wrong.

763
00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:51,880
Speaker 3: You know. It's like, like, I don't know how.

764
00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:54,399
Speaker 1: We got to such a weird place when it comes

765
00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:56,560
Speaker 1: to relationships and how they function online.

766
00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:00,759
Speaker 2: I think part of what's happened, unfortunately, and I'm seeing

767
00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:08,520
Speaker 2: this even more on TikTok, is that the entertainment people

768
00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:11,879
Speaker 2: get right. Let's call it, like the skits you see

769
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:15,319
Speaker 2: on TikTok, the storytelling whatever on Twitter. All of these

770
00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:18,480
Speaker 2: things that have happened over and over again on various platforms,

771
00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:22,680
Speaker 2: makes people feel like this stuff is there for them.

772
00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:25,880
Speaker 2: It is not necessarily that this person is doing something

773
00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 2: to entertain themselves that you happen to like. It has

774
00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:33,759
Speaker 2: become Oh, this performance is for me, this article, this

775
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:38,680
Speaker 2: writing is whatever is for me, and therefore everything here

776
00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:41,840
Speaker 2: is about me for me, and I don't have to

777
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:45,480
Speaker 2: have any sense of boundaries or limits or really grasp

778
00:44:45,560 --> 00:44:48,600
Speaker 2: that this was just someone making a thing that was

779
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:53,359
Speaker 2: in their head. Right, we feel an ownership stake in

780
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:54,680
Speaker 2: the things we are fans of.

781
00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:57,759
Speaker 1: I was a fan of Twitter ten years ago, as

782
00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:01,080
Speaker 1: much as I criticized it, and that ownership stake Mickey

783
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:04,520
Speaker 1: describes well, as I watched the platform that I once

784
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:08,560
Speaker 1: loved become something else entirely I feel that too, So

785
00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:12,400
Speaker 1: What's next? In a piece for MIT Tech Review, Mickey

786
00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:14,479
Speaker 1: looks back on a career that she's built in part

787
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:18,120
Speaker 1: on Twitter and what the future of platforms holds. Twitter's

788
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:21,480
Speaker 1: importance five years ago cannot be overstated, she writes, But

789
00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:24,080
Speaker 1: now as we look at the possibility of a future

790
00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:27,480
Speaker 1: without Twitter, will anything really change for the average person

791
00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:31,160
Speaker 1: who uses the Internet but doesn't live on it? Seting

792
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:34,040
Speaker 1: the scene for where we are and where we go next?

793
00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:38,160
Speaker 1: Like I've seen so many people, myself included, writing about

794
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:40,560
Speaker 1: how much Twitter sucks now that Elon Musk has taken

795
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:43,680
Speaker 1: over blah blah blah. But in your MIT Tech Review

796
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:46,520
Speaker 1: piece you kind of pick up on something else that it, Yeah,

797
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:49,640
Speaker 1: Elon must sucks and Twitter sucks because of him and

798
00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:52,760
Speaker 1: all of that, But really, do you think that something

799
00:45:53,480 --> 00:45:56,840
Speaker 1: there's sort of a larger cultural shift happening that is

800
00:45:56,880 --> 00:46:01,200
Speaker 1: actually being mirrored via our use of technology, that it's

801
00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:04,200
Speaker 1: not just about elon Musk being like sucking and ruining Twitter.

802
00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:08,239
Speaker 1: Something else is happening where folks are just not that

803
00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:11,240
Speaker 1: invested in showing in showing up on platforms like Twitter.

804
00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:13,719
Speaker 1: Maybe they're spending more time on platforms like TikTok, Maybe

805
00:46:13,719 --> 00:46:16,640
Speaker 1: they're less interested in social media as we all get older, Like,

806
00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:20,200
Speaker 1: do you think something is happening more broadly in culture

807
00:46:20,239 --> 00:46:24,040
Speaker 1: and that we're just visual experiencing that through technology in

808
00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:25,000
Speaker 1: our relationship to it.

809
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:28,719
Speaker 2: I think what's happening is that for a lot of

810
00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:33,720
Speaker 2: people as we are getting older, the earlier social media users,

811
00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:36,040
Speaker 2: but also for a lot of people who grew up

812
00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:37,960
Speaker 2: with social media. And I was having this conversation with

813
00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:39,600
Speaker 2: a college student last night. As a matter of fact,

814
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:44,640
Speaker 2: there is a sense that the need to always be on,

815
00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:48,239
Speaker 2: to always think about what people are perceiving of you,

816
00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:52,560
Speaker 2: that you have no privacy online is driving a lot

817
00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:57,400
Speaker 2: of people away from social media. Right once we started

818
00:46:57,400 --> 00:47:01,000
Speaker 2: to hit a place where your social media could not

819
00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:02,720
Speaker 2: just be used against your in terms of job stuff,

820
00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:05,720
Speaker 2: but you don't know how it's going to be used

821
00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:09,279
Speaker 2: because brands are using it. You're showing up on the

822
00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:11,480
Speaker 2: news it can be used against you if you said

823
00:47:11,480 --> 00:47:15,640
Speaker 2: something offensive, people dig up old offensive things you said.

824
00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:18,120
Speaker 2: You may or may not still feel that way because

825
00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:20,000
Speaker 2: it was seven, eight, nine years ago. All of these things.

826
00:47:20,719 --> 00:47:22,520
Speaker 2: People started to feel like, well, what's the use of

827
00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:27,520
Speaker 2: social media if I can't actually enjoy it, if I

828
00:47:27,600 --> 00:47:30,200
Speaker 2: can't just hang out and spend time with my friends

829
00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:32,920
Speaker 2: and have fun. And we're seeing people sort of trend

830
00:47:33,080 --> 00:47:35,680
Speaker 2: someone on TikTok. I suspect there will be another platform

831
00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:37,920
Speaker 2: or two before we settle wherever we're settling next. In

832
00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:40,760
Speaker 2: terms of social media, we're seeing people kind of trend

833
00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:44,240
Speaker 2: back almost to the days of like blogger and live journal,

834
00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:48,040
Speaker 2: where you have a carefully curated private list of people

835
00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:51,360
Speaker 2: you talk to, and maybe you have some things that

836
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:55,640
Speaker 2: are public, but you don't let everyone see what you're doing.

837
00:47:55,800 --> 00:47:59,360
Speaker 2: You don't have your business in everyone's eyeballs because you

838
00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:03,879
Speaker 2: don't want everyone else's business in your eyeballs. I think

839
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:06,359
Speaker 2: that we're also going to see the rise of those

840
00:48:06,440 --> 00:48:12,640
Speaker 2: kids who were the early mommy blogger content, right like

841
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:16,879
Speaker 2: parent blog blog content. Kids there are almost adults now,

842
00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:20,120
Speaker 2: some of them are legally adults. I think for a

843
00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:23,680
Speaker 2: lot of them, the financial impact of having been content

844
00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:28,360
Speaker 2: for twenty years but not necessarily being paid for being

845
00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:32,600
Speaker 2: that content and having that experience shape their future means

846
00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:35,000
Speaker 2: we're going to see a lot of people in court,

847
00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:40,200
Speaker 2: in federal court very soon, right, Because for all that

848
00:48:40,239 --> 00:48:42,359
Speaker 2: we have said, and about the most successful of them,

849
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:44,680
Speaker 2: the kids who were memes whatever, those kids have grown up,

850
00:48:44,719 --> 00:48:47,920
Speaker 2: and yet when you google their names, it's the meme,

851
00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:51,560
Speaker 2: it's the mommy blog content, it's the pictures of them

852
00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:53,840
Speaker 2: with a poopy diaper on their head or whatever that

853
00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:58,160
Speaker 2: comes up. And mom and dad or grandpa grandpa are

854
00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:01,680
Speaker 2: guardians whoever they may. The money, they got the checks,

855
00:49:01,680 --> 00:49:05,360
Speaker 2: but the kids get consequences. I don't foresee those kids

856
00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:07,560
Speaker 2: being interested in social media, and I think they will

857
00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:10,560
Speaker 2: be part of a growing number of people who are

858
00:49:10,600 --> 00:49:13,239
Speaker 2: just like we should not know this much about each other,

859
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:16,160
Speaker 2: about total strangers. I think people will still use social

860
00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:17,799
Speaker 2: media to some degree, but I think the way we

861
00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:19,480
Speaker 2: use it is going to change again.

862
00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:21,600
Speaker 1: So you think that we should really be letting the

863
00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:24,200
Speaker 1: younger generation take the lead. Where do you see them

864
00:49:24,239 --> 00:49:25,320
Speaker 1: leading us?

865
00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:29,720
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think I think they will have some form.

866
00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:31,920
Speaker 2: I think that they're going to like kind of reinvent

867
00:49:32,040 --> 00:49:35,840
Speaker 2: private social media, right, whether it will be Snapchat or

868
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:37,480
Speaker 2: something else. But I think they're going to reinvent that

869
00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:39,840
Speaker 2: kind of thing where they'll want to be able to

870
00:49:39,920 --> 00:49:42,919
Speaker 2: talk to their friends. But I don't know that they're

871
00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:45,120
Speaker 2: going to want to be able to talk to their

872
00:49:45,160 --> 00:49:48,759
Speaker 2: friends in the way the general public can see. Because

873
00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:52,320
Speaker 2: I'll be honest, not being able to like lock individual

874
00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:59,640
Speaker 2: tweets was always a weird thing about Twitter. It always

875
00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:05,080
Speaker 2: invites a certain level of harassment and just unpleasant context.

876
00:50:05,080 --> 00:50:07,799
Speaker 2: Because Twitter definitely knew right way before we got to

877
00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:10,280
Speaker 2: any of the conversations Cie works around here. Twitter definitely

878
00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:12,319
Speaker 2: knew about four chan and on Reddit and all of

879
00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:15,279
Speaker 2: those things, right, And we're seeing people who post on

880
00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:19,680
Speaker 2: Reddit say, oh man, this stuff is going all over

881
00:50:19,719 --> 00:50:21,400
Speaker 2: these things are going viral. I'm sure some of that

882
00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:24,399
Speaker 2: is intentional. I just don't know that we really need

883
00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:28,000
Speaker 2: to see everything with your face attached.

884
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:29,000
Speaker 3: Yeah.

885
00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:34,200
Speaker 1: I hate being perceived on social media. I'm every time

886
00:50:34,239 --> 00:50:36,520
Speaker 1: I have a few glasses of wine and spend like

887
00:50:37,040 --> 00:50:39,520
Speaker 1: actually do some tweeting. When I wake up the next

888
00:50:39,600 --> 00:50:41,920
Speaker 1: day and I see like, oh, you've got five replies,

889
00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:44,640
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh no, why did I do this to myself.

890
00:50:44,760 --> 00:50:45,560
Speaker 3: I hate it so.

891
00:50:45,560 --> 00:50:49,799
Speaker 2: Much, and I mean, I think the answer, unfortunately is

892
00:50:51,719 --> 00:50:54,040
Speaker 2: it used to be fun. It used to be great

893
00:50:54,080 --> 00:50:55,759
Speaker 2: to like hang out and talk to your friends, and

894
00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:58,760
Speaker 2: sometimes you slip up and you forget that. The way

895
00:50:58,840 --> 00:51:01,720
Speaker 2: social media functions it also changed, right, like we've changed.

896
00:51:02,960 --> 00:51:06,160
Speaker 2: But also now you have people who get online and

897
00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:08,160
Speaker 2: they're looking for a fight, and they don't care who

898
00:51:08,239 --> 00:51:09,880
Speaker 2: it's with, and it doesn't have to be on a

899
00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:13,879
Speaker 2: particular topic. It's not something they feel passionately about. It's

900
00:51:13,920 --> 00:51:17,520
Speaker 2: something that they just want someplace to argue, right, And

901
00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:19,920
Speaker 2: a lot of times, like we call it sea lioning, right,

902
00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:23,680
Speaker 2: the guys that just want a good debate and then

903
00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:28,520
Speaker 2: won't go away. What else do you do but decide, okay,

904
00:51:28,560 --> 00:51:31,960
Speaker 2: well people have perceived me, this person won't leave me alone,

905
00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:35,640
Speaker 2: or these people or whatever. Sure, you meet, the conversations,

906
00:51:35,640 --> 00:51:39,320
Speaker 2: you do all of these things. But at a certain point,

907
00:51:39,640 --> 00:51:41,800
Speaker 2: where's the payoff for you in getting online in the

908
00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:46,160
Speaker 2: first place? Right? I don't know if it wasn't still

909
00:51:46,200 --> 00:51:49,600
Speaker 2: related to like my books, my work, my whatever. I

910
00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:52,840
Speaker 2: don't know if I right now, if I were coming

911
00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:55,120
Speaker 2: into social media now, right, like I was twenty four

912
00:51:55,160 --> 00:51:57,839
Speaker 2: years old or whatever, and my job didn't require it.

913
00:51:58,160 --> 00:51:59,560
Speaker 2: I'm not sure how much I'd use it.

914
00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:01,799
Speaker 1: Well, I guess this leads me to kind of my

915
00:52:01,880 --> 00:52:05,319
Speaker 1: awkward final question, which is where can folks keep in

916
00:52:05,360 --> 00:52:06,000
Speaker 1: touch with you?

917
00:52:07,560 --> 00:52:08,480
Speaker 3: After all? After all this?

918
00:52:08,480 --> 00:52:10,040
Speaker 1: It feels weird to be like, ohould they tweet at you?

919
00:52:11,080 --> 00:52:13,000
Speaker 1: But where can folks like what? Like? What are you

920
00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:14,680
Speaker 1: up to next? And where can folks keep in touch

921
00:52:14,719 --> 00:52:15,479
Speaker 1: with all your work?

922
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:19,440
Speaker 2: So I have a website, I'm on TikTok, I'm on Twitter,

923
00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:22,239
Speaker 2: I'm on Instagram. My handle is always the same. I

924
00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:26,480
Speaker 2: am Carnethia here, there, and everywhere, and if uh it

925
00:52:26,560 --> 00:52:31,359
Speaker 2: is not Carnesia, you'll figure it out very quickly. And

926
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:35,160
Speaker 2: then I'm currently after I get back from this trip,

927
00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:38,000
Speaker 2: I am working on my next book and it is

928
00:52:38,920 --> 00:52:43,839
Speaker 2: really an autopsy of the American dream. So it's gonna

929
00:52:43,880 --> 00:52:45,960
Speaker 2: be a lot. People are gonna hate it or you're

930
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:47,920
Speaker 2: gonna love it. They're they're not. There's not gonna be

931
00:52:47,920 --> 00:52:50,640
Speaker 2: a lot in between. We're gonna have some feelings.

932
00:52:56,080 --> 00:52:58,040
Speaker 1: Got a story about an interesting thing in tech. I

933
00:52:58,200 --> 00:53:00,320
Speaker 1: just want to say hi. You can just have hello

934
00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:02,840
Speaker 1: at Tangody dot com. You can also find transcripts for

935
00:53:02,880 --> 00:53:05,600
Speaker 1: today's episode at tengody dot com. There Are No Girls

936
00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:07,920
Speaker 1: on the Internet was created by me Bridget Tod. It's

937
00:53:07,960 --> 00:53:11,279
Speaker 1: a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative Jonathan Strickland is

938
00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:14,760
Speaker 1: our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer and sound engineer.

939
00:53:15,120 --> 00:53:18,359
Speaker 1: Michael Almato is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd.

940
00:53:19,239 --> 00:53:20,959
Speaker 1: If you want to help us grow, rate and review

941
00:53:21,040 --> 00:53:24,640
Speaker 1: us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check

942
00:53:24,640 --> 00:53:27,000
Speaker 1: out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

943
00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:27,759
Speaker 1: your podcasts.