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Speaker 1: He just walked around shot all the black people. The
Speaker 1: cheer squad, most of whom are black, had to figure
Speaker 1: out how to go on and how to compete. I
Speaker 1: wanted to win for them more than anything this season.
Speaker 1: Listen to the embedded podcast from NPR within the iHeartRadio app,
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Carol Fisher and
Speaker 1: I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. It's Las Vegas,
Speaker 1: it's the nineteen nineties, and it is time to find
Speaker 1: a husband. There were four Jewish doctors who were felt
Speaker 1: to be eligible bachelors. One of them was of the
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Speaker 1: this guy's a wacko. He shouted to the point went unconscious.
Speaker 1: I would call him and I would say, I know
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Speaker 1: can save up to twenty five percent off their first
Speaker 1: year Go to LifeLock dot com slash aware. George was
Speaker 1: pretty much my brother. I mean, if I was ever
Speaker 1: going to have anybody I considered brother, it would have
Speaker 1: been him. How would you describe him? Hard working, down
Speaker 1: to hers boy, do anything in the world for anybody.
Speaker 1: If I was broke down three states over at two
Speaker 1: o'clock in the morning, I could call him. He's about
Speaker 1: the only one that I miss is George Trump. I'm sorry.
Speaker 1: So how did George get wrapped up into this? Oh? Well,
Speaker 1: since they was young, they always beating into his head
Speaker 1: that he always had to take care of his little brother,
Speaker 1: no matter what. Can let nobody heard his little brother
Speaker 1: always had to take his little brother's side, no matter what.
Speaker 1: And I think I'd had something to do with it.
Speaker 1: This is the Peketon Massacre. Returned to Pake County season three,
Speaker 1: episode five, One Eyed Wolf. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television
Speaker 1: producer at Katie Studios with Stephanie Leidiger and Jeff Shane.
Speaker 1: George Wagner is awaiting trial in Pike County for his
Speaker 1: involvement in the murders of the Roden family. He's pleaded
Speaker 1: not guilty. After two seasons of reporting, details of what
Speaker 1: allegedly went down on the night of April twenty first,
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen have slowly come into focus, but we still
Speaker 1: know little about the eldest son of the Wagner clan,
Speaker 1: George Wagner. In this episode, we talked to the people
Speaker 1: who knew George the best and delve into why many
Speaker 1: are still trying to comprehend his potential involvement in the
Speaker 1: Pike of Nassacre. In May of twenty seventeen, thirteen months
Speaker 1: after the murders, investigators sent a SWAT team to the
Speaker 1: Wagner's property to search for evidence. Around that time, George
Speaker 1: changed his social media profile picture and an online group
Speaker 1: picked it up immediately screen shot at it and posted
Speaker 1: it here's an anonymous Wagner and Roden family source. It's crazy.
Speaker 1: I don't know what all is out and what's not out.
Speaker 1: But when all this went down, he had posted what
Speaker 1: is it called your profile picture of a wolf that
Speaker 1: had a chart in one eye. And if you get
Speaker 1: on there and read that Angela is on there and
Speaker 1: tell him he needs to delete it, you know you
Speaker 1: shouldn't be doing that. And then everybody in this group
Speaker 1: that I'm in was like, oh, that's like pointing to
Speaker 1: him having shot Kenny, and Angela commented on it, really
Speaker 1: quessed you marked. Everybody in his faith book group was like, oh,
Speaker 1: my gosh, he's the one who shot Kenny. Kenneth Roden,
Speaker 1: brother of patriarch Chris Roden Senior, was the eighth and
Speaker 1: final victim to be discovered. This was five hours after
Speaker 1: Bobby Joe Manley discovered the first bodies and called nine
Speaker 1: one one, I need it. He's been about to most
Speaker 1: of seven, nine and nine. Okay. This is family member
Speaker 1: Donald Stone calling from Kenneth's home, seven miles away from
Speaker 1: the other crime scenes. It's all this stuff. It's going
Speaker 1: to news. I just found to just found Martasins was
Speaker 1: again shot was and I don't know what his address is. Harney.
Speaker 1: Out of the house. I'm out of the house right now.
Speaker 1: Is just winning horror nighting Stone found Kenneth lying in
Speaker 1: his bed, face up, covered in blood. He had dollar
Speaker 1: bills strewn over the lower half of his body. He
Speaker 1: was the only victim killed with a single gunshot wound
Speaker 1: to the head, specifically through his right eye. This is
Speaker 1: like the picture of the wolf and George's profile that
Speaker 1: piqued people's interest online. Here's Stephanie and Jeff. It came
Speaker 1: to our attention that in October of twenty eighteen, about
Speaker 1: a month before the Wagners were arrested. George Wagner changed
Speaker 1: his profile picture to a cartoon wolf that has a
Speaker 1: scar over its right eye, and on that picture, his mother,
Speaker 1: Angela Wagner commented, really, we can only assume this picture
Speaker 1: represents Kenneth Roden, who was shot in the right eye,
Speaker 1: and that George Wagner was somehow bragging or making a
Speaker 1: callback to the way Kenneth Roden was murdered. We do
Speaker 1: also know that Kenneth Roden was really the only victim
Speaker 1: who was shot just once in their right eye, and
Speaker 1: the significance of that might be tied to this photo.
Speaker 1: It feels like a stretch a little bit, to be honest.
Speaker 1: So he posted this on October fourth, twenty eighteen, and
Speaker 1: a few weeks prior to that, on September nineteenth, twenty eighteen,
Speaker 1: is when the autopsy notes were released and everyone found
Speaker 1: out that Kenneth was shot in the right eye. And
Speaker 1: so it seems like a bit of a coincidence that
Speaker 1: we as the public, find out that Kenneth throw it
Speaker 1: in a shot in the right eye, and then George
Speaker 1: Wagner posts this photo of a wolf with a scar
Speaker 1: over its right eye, and that maybe wouldn't be connective.
Speaker 1: But then if it wasn't, why would Angela make that comment?
Speaker 1: Because if it's just a picture of a wolf, like,
Speaker 1: what does his mom care what he posts on Facebook?
Speaker 1: And it doesn't have this kind of deeper meaning. So
Speaker 1: much has been made about this online and in various
Speaker 1: different Facebook groups. It could really just be a complete coincidence.
Speaker 1: It could, but we can only assume what the Wagners did.
Speaker 1: I think it's fair to scrutinize all of their behavior
Speaker 1: prior to the arrests and following the murders. What would
Speaker 1: be the significance of that. Either he's bragging or is
Speaker 1: he giving a signal to someone else? What is the
Speaker 1: connective tissue there? The way I read into it is
Speaker 1: that he's bragging about the murders. Why would he do that?
Speaker 1: We do know they get arrested one month later. Many
Speaker 1: people in the area were saying that the Wagoners were
Speaker 1: expecting to be arrested at any moment, And it really
Speaker 1: does make you wonder why they were so busy on
Speaker 1: social media in the first place. If you feared that
Speaker 1: you were going to be arrested, why would you possibly
Speaker 1: go on social media? Period? The way it was presented
Speaker 1: to me was that it was more of a matter
Speaker 1: of fact that the police think we're tied up in this,
Speaker 1: we're going to get arrested, but we're going to get
Speaker 1: out because we're innocent. It's just a formality. And so
Speaker 1: the way I think, at least they were portraying themselves
Speaker 1: to their friends and family was that they were very
Speaker 1: confident about their innocence and all of this, and that
Speaker 1: they would not be roped into it too much. Jake
Speaker 1: was the one that literally said he shot five people
Speaker 1: or killed five people and shot six and I don't know.
Speaker 1: I mean, who was the other person? Well, if anything,
Speaker 1: I think Billy, you know, would been the crazy one
Speaker 1: to do something, because Billy has always come up with
Speaker 1: these crazy schemes. Billy I would not put past to
Speaker 1: do anything. I feel like he would be at a
Speaker 1: gas station and shoot somebody. I probably George would throw
Speaker 1: up if he shot somebody, But I don't know, I don't,
Speaker 1: I don't know. Last season, it seems like the only
Speaker 1: thing we heard about George Wagner was that he was
Speaker 1: an abusive husband and all around a pretty bad guy.
Speaker 1: But as the court proceedings have kind of continued, We've
Speaker 1: talked to more and more people who were close with
Speaker 1: George Wagner and have kind of told us the opposite
Speaker 1: of what we've always heard. Everyone we've spoken to as
Speaker 1: of late has said nothing but nice things about him,
Speaker 1: basically that he was this great guy and they are
Speaker 1: shocked that he was involved in this murder. No one
Speaker 1: seems to have a hard time imagining that Billy, Jake,
Speaker 1: or even Angela could have planned murdered uncovered up this crime.
Speaker 1: But people have a really hard time wrapping their head
Speaker 1: around George Wagner being involved, which is surprising to me
Speaker 1: because we did hear about how terribly he treated his
Speaker 1: wife when they all lived with his mother, Angela Wagner,
Speaker 1: and the whole accused family mistreated her. This season, yeah,
Speaker 1: we've heard quite the opposite. All we really have so
Speaker 1: far is Jake's plea deal, where he has testified that
Speaker 1: George was only their last minute and really was only
Speaker 1: there to protect Jake from their father, which you know,
Speaker 1: we're still trying to unpack what that actually means. So
Speaker 1: let's play that out really quickly. Just this scenario as
Speaker 1: we maybe know it right now. According to all of
Speaker 1: these plea agreements. Jake, who has admitted to five killings,
Speaker 1: and Dad Billy Wagner they were the ones that were
Speaker 1: going to go out and do all of the killing.
Speaker 1: So that's five that Jake was going to do or
Speaker 1: has admitted to, leaving the remaining three maybe done by Billy.
Speaker 1: Yet at the very last minute, George, the oldest brother,
Speaker 1: to protect his younger brother, decides to go along with them,
Speaker 1: even though he's been a part of the planning, he
Speaker 1: wasn't intending ongoing And now according to Angela Wagner, she
Speaker 1: stayed behind to babysit. So now George tags along. What
Speaker 1: does that mean? Is he equally responsible? Is he not
Speaker 1: responsible at all? He was a part of all the planning,
Speaker 1: so maybe he wasn't one of the trigger pullers. But
Speaker 1: it also speaks to the larger question of why would
Speaker 1: George Wagner think their father was going to kill or
Speaker 1: harm Jake Wagner. It's certainly a good question, and I
Speaker 1: won or if George's defense will bring that up, because
Speaker 1: I think in the eyes of the law, if you
Speaker 1: plan a murder and you're at the murder, you're pretty
Speaker 1: culpable in the crime. And so whether you're there to
Speaker 1: protect someone else or not. We'll see if that matters
Speaker 1: and how much that will play out in his upcoming trial.
Speaker 1: If we're just going to play along with this version
Speaker 1: of a tale, if George Wagner was just tagging along
Speaker 1: to protect Jake Wagner from their father, Billy Wagner, go
Speaker 1: with me here for one quick second, that would imply
Speaker 1: that Billy Wagner dad was allegedly going to kill or
Speaker 1: harm Jake Wagner. Why would he do that? Like, why
Speaker 1: would George have to protect Jake from their dad? And
Speaker 1: I guess the only thing that would sort of make
Speaker 1: sense is because maybe Billy Wagner was going to kill
Speaker 1: Jake Wagner just so there was nobody left to turn
Speaker 1: them in. Yeah, there would have been one US witness.
Speaker 1: And as we know the kind of how the dynamics
Speaker 1: of the family were, Jake and Angela Wagner were very close,
Speaker 1: and Billy and George Wagner were very close. So perhaps
Speaker 1: George felt that if he went he could maybe talk
Speaker 1: some sense for lack of a better term, into his
Speaker 1: dad and protect Jake at the same time. It's certainly complicated.
Speaker 1: It's important to note that both George and Billy Wagner
Speaker 1: have pleaded not guilty on all counts and have not
Speaker 1: yet had their day in court. So everything we're talking
Speaker 1: about is just Jake and Angela Wagner's version of events.
Speaker 1: Otherwise the prosecution would not allow their version of events
Speaker 1: to be, frankly, the foundation of their upcoming trials. Yeah,
Speaker 1: certainly the prosecution believes Jake and Angela's version of how
Speaker 1: things went down that night. But it's just important to
Speaker 1: note that Billy and George are disputing all this and
Speaker 1: it's not just us Steph who are trying to unpack this.
Speaker 1: The people who were close with the Wagner family are
Speaker 1: still kind of wrapping their head around all of this,
Speaker 1: particularly Chris Newcome, who as we know, is Angela Wagner's
Speaker 1: half brother, was very close with George and in talking
Speaker 1: to him numerous times, He's still really grappling with this
Speaker 1: whole situation and still trying to come to terms with
Speaker 1: George Wagner's possible involvement. And it's been six years since
Speaker 1: this whole thing happened. Chris was born when his older
Speaker 1: half sister, Angela was twenty. The age gap kept the
Speaker 1: two from growing close but Chris was drawn to her boys,
Speaker 1: specifically to George. I mean, help me and my nephews.
Speaker 1: We grew up more like brothers than we did huncle
Speaker 1: and nephews. I'm two and a half years older than Jake,
Speaker 1: in a year and a half older than George. I
Speaker 1: was always closer to George than I was with Jake.
Speaker 1: Man George, we'd always go hunting, fishing, camping. He always
Speaker 1: wanted to have his own hunting show. Do you know
Speaker 1: you wanted to go on TV Hunti's monster Deer and
Speaker 1: Perkey and Elk and stuff like it. I mean, he
Speaker 1: loved hunting that much, Sammy. I spoke with us earlier
Speaker 1: in the season about both the Rodin and Wagner families.
Speaker 1: She dated Frankie Rodin from seventh to ninth grade and
Speaker 1: was involved with Jake Wagner at times, but she also
Speaker 1: had a crush on George. I probably shouldn't say that,
Speaker 1: but Jake we pretty much stopped talking because I think
Speaker 1: Angela thought I was trying to get Jake to break
Speaker 1: up with Hannah, and that's not what it was. Because
Speaker 1: I didn't want Jake. I wanted George. What did you
Speaker 1: like about George? Just his goofiness. Honestly, George, he's a
Speaker 1: big teddy bear. Really. I remember a time I got
Speaker 1: a hold of George and I told him. I was like,
Speaker 1: I can't afford Christmas. I don't know what to do,
Speaker 1: and he goes meet me at the gas station. He
Speaker 1: gave me money to pay my electric bill and bought
Speaker 1: my daughter present. Wow, so he was like your Santa Claus. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Like it broke my heart when I found out he
Speaker 1: was married the first time. And did you ever confess
Speaker 1: to George that you kind of liked Nope, Now I
Speaker 1: don't never know. He was just a nice guy, good
Speaker 1: to be around, you know, didn't really talk too much,
Speaker 1: but he was definitely a nice person. Howard grew up
Speaker 1: with the Wagners and lived near them in both Ohio
Speaker 1: and Alaska. I just remember my sister. I'll keep her
Speaker 1: name out of him, but she kind of had a
Speaker 1: crush on George and she would always talking to him
Speaker 1: on Facebook and things like that. It's very funny because
Speaker 1: you're the second person today who has made mention of
Speaker 1: a family member, specifically his sister, who kind of loved
Speaker 1: George from a distance, and still have the nicest, kindest
Speaker 1: things to say of him. If I had a daughter
Speaker 1: and he were hurried, That's who I would want my
Speaker 1: daughter nating. He was just a great guy. He was
Speaker 1: super nice, like very friendly. Jake called the other hair
Speaker 1: was kind of secluded, kind of recluse. But George was
Speaker 1: just nice, like all around a nice guy. We've been
Speaker 1: able to speak with a whole host of new family
Speaker 1: members and friends this season. Patricia, you may recall, is
Speaker 1: one of them. So I think God every day that
Speaker 1: Doabta was no longer with him. Patricia is the mother
Speaker 1: of George's ex wife, Tabitha. Tabitha was bullied into relinquishing
Speaker 1: control of her child with George by Angela Wagner. The
Speaker 1: situation was eerily similar to the custody battle between Hanname
Speaker 1: Rodin and Jake Wagner that was happening before the massacre.
Speaker 1: I think the only reason that save Tapsa from going
Speaker 1: through this same thing was the fact that she didn't
Speaker 1: fight for custody of honor. They had him already so
Speaker 1: caused him harm to Dabby with them done him any good.
Speaker 1: Patricia claims Angela pulled all the strings within the Wagner clan.
Speaker 1: I know the demeanor of Angelis. She tries to be
Speaker 1: the loving, cheering mother. But if you've seen the side
Speaker 1: of Angelis that I've seen, and the way she holds
Speaker 1: your demeanor around me, you could tell that she was
Speaker 1: all faked. Dabby wasn't afraid of George, Danna wasn't afraid
Speaker 1: of Jake. They were only afraid of Angela. Sammy Chose
Speaker 1: saw firsthand how Angela should just control over her sons.
Speaker 1: She was just really intimidating normally growing up, I was
Speaker 1: always with Jake, and then as I got older, the
Speaker 1: contact changed from Jake to George because Jake became a
Speaker 1: stuck up I'm trying to think of nice, not so
Speaker 1: hateful words, but he became Angela. Angela took over Tabitha's
Speaker 1: life as well. For two years she lived with them
Speaker 1: and was not allowed to have any contacted with me
Speaker 1: once whoever, because Angela didn't want her to. They even
Speaker 1: went as far as they conduct the cell phone from
Speaker 1: her because she was texting me. Angela knows that Tabeth
Speaker 1: has always been close to every one of her sisters,
Speaker 1: and every one of them could have talked to her.
Speaker 1: Out its everyone. I'm gonna talked Tabby out of there,
Speaker 1: and Angela knew that we're going to take a break.
Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment. Oh. I'm Carol Fisher
Speaker 1: and I'm hosting a podcast called The girl Friends. Back
Speaker 1: in the nineteen nineties in Las Vegas, a few of
Speaker 1: us dated the most eligible bachelor in town, Bob. He
Speaker 1: spoke several languages, he did medical missionary work, and he
Speaker 1: was Jewish. He was perfect on paper, but he wasn't.
Speaker 1: He really wasn't. He choked into the point she went unconscious.
Speaker 1: Bob could lie about anything, but only takes the one
Speaker 1: time when somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob, us
Speaker 1: girlfriends know how to fight back. I wanted him to
Speaker 1: pay for his crime. He needed to be put to justice.
Speaker 1: I'll be honest with you. If I saw him right now,
Speaker 1: I'd spit on him. I would call him and I
Speaker 1: would say, knew you killed my sister. I will always
Speaker 1: hound you and haunt you. You can listen to the
Speaker 1: Girlfriends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you
Speaker 1: get your podcasts. LA's reputation not so great. People from
Speaker 1: LA will have a very superficial, nice conversation with you,
Speaker 1: and they won't lift a finger to help you to La.
Speaker 1: People represent vapidity, stops that like oh the best gulls
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Speaker 1: to make of our bodies already existed in the true style.
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Speaker 1: the atmospheres of alien punic? And you know, how are
Speaker 1: we even here to even ask those questions. So road
Speaker 1: trip I want to get some answers directly from researchers
Speaker 1: At the Large Hadron Collider. We're colliding particles with energies
Speaker 1: that naturally existed in the universe, was about a trillions
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Speaker 1: Bad Manners. This is the podcast that takes you inside
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Speaker 1: crumbling castles, massive mansions and stately piles bigger than Buckingham Palace.
Speaker 1: As a comedian, I'm not really bothered about the facts
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Speaker 1: iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, well wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1: Six years after the murder, as Chris Nukeam still finds
Speaker 1: George's potential involvement in the Piketon massacre very hard to grasp.
Speaker 1: I mean, I'd have trusted George with my life and
Speaker 1: that's the guy's down the streets on the matter. So
Speaker 1: how do you wrap your head around that feeling like
Speaker 1: someone who you trust your life with is allegedly being
Speaker 1: a part of something where eight people are dad. So
Speaker 1: you asked me how I deal? Well, I guess yeah.
Speaker 1: I get up, I do my chores, they'll do the
Speaker 1: work I gotta do. I spend time with my family
Speaker 1: and I go to bed. I get up next day
Speaker 1: and do it again. I mean I fought for him.
Speaker 1: I'd have never in a million years believe they'd ever
Speaker 1: done anything like this. And when it came out, I mean,
Speaker 1: I just they made me look like the biggest damn
Speaker 1: fool we ever walked there. I kid you not, I
Speaker 1: don't see him doing anything of the sort like, but
Speaker 1: of course I was not there. I don't know what happened.
Speaker 1: Sammy Joe spent time with George after the murders. I
Speaker 1: asked him. I was like, I can't believe this happened.
Speaker 1: But George like shut me out, like he goes, how
Speaker 1: could we do it? There's something wrong, Like he coolly
Speaker 1: shut me out, Like I knew something was wrong that
Speaker 1: day when we were talking about it, like our fish
Speaker 1: and trip was going good and it got rung roll.
Speaker 1: We spoke to a close friend of George's, who, after
Speaker 1: the interview was done, decided it hit a little too
Speaker 1: close to home and requested their voice not be used
Speaker 1: at all. Here Stephanie and Jeff recounting the conversation. This
Speaker 1: young woman who was very close with the Wagner family,
Speaker 1: recounting to us that the morning of November twenty eighteen,
Speaker 1: the day all of the Wagners were arrested, she had
Speaker 1: actually been communicating with both George and Angela, and according
Speaker 1: to her, the conversations were rather mundane. They were talking
Speaker 1: about how their days were going, what kind of errands
Speaker 1: they were running, and we know that Jake and George
Speaker 1: were together at the time of their arrests and they
Speaker 1: were in their truck running errands, and that Angela Wagner
Speaker 1: was dropping her grandkids off at school. They also talked
Speaker 1: about things like Thanksgiving, which was coming up in a
Speaker 1: couple of weeks. And within minutes of ending the conversations,
Speaker 1: this young woman saw the news of the arrests and
Speaker 1: after the shock of the news, her first thoughts were,
Speaker 1: it had to have been Billy and Jake. Angela and
Speaker 1: George must have been covering for them. And again that
Speaker 1: doesn't make it a matter of fact, but she was
Speaker 1: incredibly surprised and steadfast that George and Angela must have
Speaker 1: been covering for Billy and Jake. Yeah, it paints a
Speaker 1: picture of what that day was like, which is very
Speaker 1: bizarre because you see the news footage of Billy getting
Speaker 1: coughed and the bodycam footage minutes before that, they were
Speaker 1: just living their lives, helping to get away with murder,
Speaker 1: or they were just expecting to go through the formality
Speaker 1: of being arrested, being booked, being released on bail, and
Speaker 1: that this would all go away. I think that's what
Speaker 1: they really believed at this point. It doesn't explain why
Speaker 1: they came back, though. So they came back to care
Speaker 1: for Billy Wagner's ailing father, but they didn't really move back.
Speaker 1: They just came back, and we're staying in that small
Speaker 1: house that we ultimately saw recently. But they weren't settled in.
Speaker 1: Were They just coming back with the understanding that they
Speaker 1: were going to get arrested and that would blow over
Speaker 1: really quickly and then they could pick up life and
Speaker 1: go back to normal. According to everyone who knew them,
Speaker 1: that scene to be their frame of mind. Court just
Speaker 1: wrapped up in Pike County. Mike Chell was there as
Speaker 1: George Wagner the Fourth made an appearance. He's been covering
Speaker 1: the Pike County massacres since it happened in twenty sixteen.
Speaker 1: This spring, George Wagner appeared in court as part of
Speaker 1: his pre child hearings. He walked into the courtroom unrestrained
Speaker 1: and dressed in civilian clothes. He's tall, so he had
Speaker 1: to bow his head to hear the hush direction of
Speaker 1: his lawyers before he's at for the hearing. So, Mike,
Speaker 1: what happened in court today, Chriss was a revealing day
Speaker 1: here in the Pike County Courthouse. Captain Seth Hegeman, now
Speaker 1: with the Westchester Police Department, was a special agent with
Speaker 1: a Bureau of Criminal Investigations back in twenty sixteen, and
Speaker 1: he was one of the lead investigators on the Pike
Speaker 1: County murders. Now Hageman spent about two and a half
Speaker 1: hours on the stand testifying. Here's the police captain's interpretation
Speaker 1: of a tattoo that George Wagner got just a few
Speaker 1: months after the murders. Obviously, a skulls often used to
Speaker 1: be associated with death immortality, and then eight bowls is
Speaker 1: sometimes thought as a symbol of chance. But there also
Speaker 1: should be noted there were eight victims in the Roden homicides.
Speaker 1: And then he had tattoos of aces and eights that
Speaker 1: are commonly considered the dead man's hand and represent death
Speaker 1: and murder. Here again, as Stephanie and Jeff, so let's
Speaker 1: break this down a bit. And it's a bit confusing
Speaker 1: because we were not able to obtain the entire hearing
Speaker 1: courtroom footage and instead have to fall back on reporting.
Speaker 1: And different sources have said different things about when George
Speaker 1: Wagner got this tattoo. Some news sources have said it
Speaker 1: was before the murders and some have said after, so
Speaker 1: it's not totally clear to us which is true. What
Speaker 1: we do know is that at some point George Wagner
Speaker 1: got a tattoo of a dead man's hand. And for
Speaker 1: those of you who are not familiar with poker, a
Speaker 1: dead man's hand is composed of eights and aces. It's
Speaker 1: called the dead man's hand because it's rumored to be
Speaker 1: the hand of a man named wild Bill Hickcock who
Speaker 1: was holding it when he was shot in the back
Speaker 1: by arrival, and because of that, the hand is now
Speaker 1: cursed forever, which again we don't know the link. But
Speaker 1: if we're going to analyze all of the behavior of
Speaker 1: the Wagner's pre and post murder, it certainly seems like
Speaker 1: it's possible that George Wagner knows this folklore story and
Speaker 1: decided to get a tattoo because he himself shot the Rodents.
Speaker 1: Much has been made online about their various tattoos, and
Speaker 1: Facebook postings, and yes, you can read into them for sure.
Speaker 1: For example, it's speculated that the eight ball connects the
Speaker 1: eight members of the Rodent family. That's possible, it also
Speaker 1: could be a big stretch. George Wagner's child is tentatively
Speaker 1: said to begin two months now based on a recent hearing.
Speaker 1: The prosecution's case is pushing forward with the fundamental argument
Speaker 1: that the murders were a family affair, with George being
Speaker 1: complicit in the crimes. They functioned as one unit at
Speaker 1: all times. Like I said, they worked together, they homeschool together.
Speaker 1: This is demonstrated by factors, including to that limited two
Speaker 1: that are residing together in a varying insular manner in
Speaker 1: their entire lives, even while married as adults. It establishes
Speaker 1: this conspiracy, It establishes the enterprise. The all of this
Speaker 1: information goes together to show that they were again that
Speaker 1: group think, the group action. Not one of them turned
Speaker 1: back from these crimes. They all knew what was going
Speaker 1: to happen that night. They all had their own roles.
Speaker 1: The possible depths of George's allegiance to his family was
Speaker 1: on full display on April twenty eight, twenty sixteen, a
Speaker 1: warm day in South Shore, Kentucky. We received a picture
Speaker 1: from a listener that was used in the Cincinnati Enquirer,
Speaker 1: and while we can't be one hundred percent certain, it
Speaker 1: appears to have Billy, George and Jake Wagner in it.
Speaker 1: It was taken at the funeral of Gary Rowden. Also,
Speaker 1: I think it's worth noting, Jeff that we actually were
Speaker 1: tipped off to this photograph by a listener. We hadn't
Speaker 1: seen it before, and when you look at it, it's
Speaker 1: pretty staggering because it's all three Wagner accused men, and
Speaker 1: you can't really see their expressions too too closely, but
Speaker 1: you can just see they're clearly speaking to somebody, and
Speaker 1: it just makes you wonder what could they possibly be
Speaker 1: talking about, what could possibly be going on in their heads. Collectively,
Speaker 1: they also have to look the people in the eye
Speaker 1: and the family members in the eye of the people
Speaker 1: that they allegedly murdered. You know, everyone is there grieving,
Speaker 1: The whole town is there grieving, and you know full
Speaker 1: well that you're at the exact same place that you
Speaker 1: caused all of that pain for everyone. Yeah, what's so
Speaker 1: striking to me that is, if indeed these are the
Speaker 1: Wagner men attending Gary Roden's funeral. Just how performative the
Speaker 1: whole thing must have been. They went there as this
Speaker 1: grieving family supporting their friends and sort of in laws.
Speaker 1: I mean, the Wagners and the Rodents were sort of
Speaker 1: in laws to one another, and so to have to
Speaker 1: go there and put on this show of a grieving
Speaker 1: family is pretty hard to wrap your head around. Kind
Speaker 1: of relevant here too. George Wagner's whole defense is that
Speaker 1: he had nothing to do with this, Yet here we
Speaker 1: see the family as they stand together at the funeral
Speaker 1: of a man that was allegedly murdered by at least
Speaker 1: some of them. So George was in the mix, and
Speaker 1: we've heard some very checkered things about him, certainly how
Speaker 1: he handled his own ex wife and the custody of
Speaker 1: their child. But this season we also started to hear
Speaker 1: things that are also quite different. That he was really
Speaker 1: loving and kind, and that he could never pull this off.
Speaker 1: And then you look at a picture like this and
Speaker 1: it does make you wonder. My sister always kept him
Speaker 1: on a short leach. I mean, she wouldn't let him
Speaker 1: do anything, wouldn't let him get away from anybody. You know.
Speaker 1: I mean that she just kept him on a short lease.
Speaker 1: They had to stay there, had to take care of
Speaker 1: the family. George wanted to leave. He wanted his own place,
Speaker 1: but never got it. If you're raised your entire life
Speaker 1: a certain way, it's hard to change if you've had
Speaker 1: something pounded like they was homeschooled all their life. I
Speaker 1: think it was just the fact that he was, like
Speaker 1: I said, had a pounding in his head that you
Speaker 1: always have to take care of the family, always helped
Speaker 1: the family, whatever they do, You got to be a
Speaker 1: part of the help or whatever. And I think it
Speaker 1: just pounded in his head so much that he started
Speaker 1: believing it because I know that he was raised up
Speaker 1: to always take care of Jake. Oh, no matter what,
Speaker 1: he has to protect Jack. Don't matter if Jake does
Speaker 1: wrong to somebody else and they won't pay back on it,
Speaker 1: don't matter. You've got to take care of your brother.
Speaker 1: And so when Angela is like this, Hannah, a girl
Speaker 1: is trouble, she's trying to take away Jake's daughter, What's
Speaker 1: he gonna do protect his brother. Yeah, that's the way
Speaker 1: he was raised up. After Jake confessed it or whatever
Speaker 1: he did have I just said, hey, I ain't got
Speaker 1: nothing for him anymore. I defended him tooth and nail
Speaker 1: to everybody that had anything bad to say about him.
Speaker 1: I defended because I had thought to myself there said,
Speaker 1: there's no way my family could have had anything to
Speaker 1: do with this. I said, I've known George and Jake,
Speaker 1: you know, all their life. I said, there's no way
Speaker 1: possible that they could have done this. I've always been
Speaker 1: so curious to know more about life behind bars. For
Speaker 1: the individual Wagner family members, we know that they've been
Speaker 1: separated and haven't seen each other since their arrests. We've
Speaker 1: been in contact with one of Angela Wagner's sell men.
Speaker 1: We know that George Wagner requested solitary confinement in a
Speaker 1: bible and that he was originally in Ross County Jail
Speaker 1: but is currently in the Montgomery County Jail in Ohio.
Speaker 1: And as for angel and Billy Wagner, they have both
Speaker 1: been in the same jails since they were arrested. Billy
Speaker 1: is in Hamilton, Ohio, and Angela Wagner is in Delaware County.
Speaker 1: The youngest Wagner's son, Jake, is currently being held in
Speaker 1: the Franklin County Jail in Columbus, Ohio, and all of
Speaker 1: these jails are in about one hundred and seventy five
Speaker 1: mile radius of each other in a little under three hours.
Speaker 1: But for a family who will probably never see each
Speaker 1: other again except for when they are testifying against each
Speaker 1: other in court, those three hours probably feel like a lifetime.
Speaker 1: And Steph, you know a little bit more about Jake's
Speaker 1: time in jail. Right. Somebody who has access to Jake
Speaker 1: Wagner on a daily basis came and saw us at
Speaker 1: a work event and said that Jake is very busy
Speaker 1: working on a manifesto. So whether that's something he's putting
Speaker 1: together as a book or as a final statement, we
Speaker 1: don't know. You hear the term manifesto a lot when
Speaker 1: it comes to shooters. Often people who go and shoot
Speaker 1: public places write these manifestos prior to their murders. I
Speaker 1: hate to say this out loud, but what a shakeup
Speaker 1: that would be to the remaining trials. Let's stop here
Speaker 1: for another break. Oh. I'm Carol Fisher, and I'm hosting
Speaker 1: a podcast called The girl Friends. Back in the nineteen
Speaker 1: nineties in Las Vegas, a few of us dated the
Speaker 1: most eligible bachelor in town. Bob. He spoke several languages,
Speaker 1: he did medical missionary work, and he was Jewish. He
Speaker 1: was perfect on paper, but he wasn't. He really wasn't.
Speaker 1: He shouted and to the point she went unconscious. Bob
Speaker 1: could lie about anything, but only takes the one time
Speaker 1: when somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob, us girlfriends
Speaker 1: know how to fight back. I wanted him to pay
Speaker 1: for his crime. He needed to be put to justice.
Speaker 1: I'll be honest with you. If I saw him right now,
Speaker 1: I'd spit on him. I would call him and I
Speaker 1: would say, I know you killed my sister. I will
Speaker 1: always hound you and haunt you. You can listen to
Speaker 1: the Girlfriends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Delia Wild and I
Speaker 1: want to invite you to listen to my newest podcast,
Speaker 1: Answers to make up already existed the two styles. It's
Speaker 1: called The Oh My God Particle Show or OMGPS for short.
Speaker 1: How you like me? Always wondering about the universe, like
Speaker 1: what the universe is made of? What is in the
Speaker 1: atmospheres of alien panics? And you know, how are we
Speaker 1: even here? To even ask those questions. So road Trip
Speaker 1: I want to get some answers directly for researchers at
Speaker 1: the Large Hadron Collider. We're colliding particles with energies that
Speaker 1: naturally existed in the universe was about a trillions of
Speaker 1: a second old. I found scientists from all over the world.
Speaker 1: Everybody is working together to get their experiment working. I've
Speaker 1: got to doctor brilliant astrophysicist who collaborated with Brian may
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Speaker 1: Particle Show on the I Heard Radio app, Apple Podcasts
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Speaker 1: Ever with Raven and Miranda, you'll hear well the best
Speaker 1: podcast Ever. Join Raven Simone and her partner Miranda may
Speaker 1: Day as they let the wheel of Words determine the
Speaker 1: topic of that week's show. Every episode will spend a
Speaker 1: wheel of random words from things like animosity to something
Speaker 1: like zodiac and whatever it lands on, that's what we're
Speaker 1: going to talk about for around an hour. Think we
Speaker 1: can't do it, well, then you've never heard us talk.
Speaker 1: Each week, Raven and Miranda and celebrity guests like Demi
Speaker 1: Levado Kiki Palmer and Megan Trainer will spin the fateful
Speaker 1: wheel and then the conversation will begin. Also, we're gonna
Speaker 1: have a ton of amazing guests because you don't want
Speaker 1: to just hear us too all the time. Do Yes,
Speaker 1: you do? And somehow We're going to start with something
Speaker 1: like Spider and end with well, when was your last
Speaker 1: nervous breakdown? Listen to the Best Podcast Ever with Raven
Speaker 1: and Miranda on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. Everybody. We know there are a
Speaker 1: ton of podcasts out there. Well, we have one we
Speaker 1: would love for you to check out. It is called
Speaker 1: The pen Pals Podcast with Daniel Van Kirk and Rory Scoville.
Speaker 1: We are both stand up comedians where actors were writers,
Speaker 1: but now most of all, we are your pen pals.
Speaker 1: Every single episode we get two letters that we read
Speaker 1: from our listeners, our new pen pals. It can be
Speaker 1: about anything going on in their life, and sometimes we're
Speaker 1: also joined by guests like Will Ferrell. I'm gonna bring
Speaker 1: you up in front of the group. I'm gonna punch
Speaker 1: you as hard as I can in the stomach. Rose burn.
Speaker 1: This is West Hollywood, we keep Clay considered. Brian, I'm
Speaker 1: just showing you that my mind is quick, if not
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Speaker 1: Listen to the pen Pals podcast on Will Ferrell's Big
Speaker 1: Money Players Network, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or
Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcast. Sincerely, your new pen Pals
Speaker 1: Daniel van Kirk and Rory Scobel. George's ties Swiss family
Speaker 1: will be put to the test at this trial in
Speaker 1: light of Jake's admission of guilt and Angela's plea. The
Speaker 1: eldest son of the Wagner clan is in a tight spot.
Speaker 1: Was George's a legend involvement in the murders as a
Speaker 1: passive participant or could he be a cold blooded killer?
Speaker 1: Here again, Sammy Joe, the family for the rooms cannot
Speaker 1: have closure until they know the truth. They'll never know
Speaker 1: the truth if we keep doing a pre trial trial.
Speaker 1: We're going to move it so on, so forth. The
Speaker 1: way I feel, if you have all the evidence to
Speaker 1: say you have move on. Want to move on so
Speaker 1: people can have closure and move on with their life.
Speaker 1: But again, they're just going to drag their feet and
Speaker 1: eventually the truth will come out, and then the people
Speaker 1: that's way it's so long to find the truth is
Speaker 1: no longer going to be here, and then they never
Speaker 1: had closure in our life. More on that next time.
Speaker 1: If you're enjoying The Pips and Massacre, listen to our
Speaker 1: other hit series, Crazy and Love. New episodes there every
Speaker 1: Tuesday wherever you get your podcasts. For more information and
Speaker 1: case photos, follow us on Instagram at Katie Underscore Studios.
Speaker 1: The Pikes and Massacre is produced by Stephanie Lydeger, Jeff Shane,
Speaker 1: Chris Graves and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed
Speaker 1: by Jeff Tis, Music by Jared Aston. The Pikes and
Speaker 1: Massacre is a production of Katie Studios and iHeartRadio. For
Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. I'm Carol
Speaker 1: Fisher and I'm hosting a podcast called The Girl Friends.
Speaker 1: It's Las Vegas, it's the nineteen nineties, and it is
Speaker 1: time to find a husband. There were four Jewish doctors
Speaker 1: who were felt to be eligible bachelors. One of them
Speaker 1: was the spot Barren bat On Paper. He was perfect,
Speaker 1: but in reality, this guy's a wacko. He choked and
Speaker 1: to the point she went unconscious. I would call him
Speaker 1: and I would say, I know you killed my sister.
Speaker 1: You can listen to The girl Friends on the iHeartRadio app,
Speaker 1: app podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, it's
Speaker 1: Elvis Duran on my new podcast, Thinking out Loud. With
Speaker 1: Elvis Duran, I'll be bringing you candid and maybe sometimes
Speaker 1: a little crazy interviews with people from all walks of life.
Speaker 1: We'll touch on subjects that you just can't talk about
Speaker 1: on the radio, like life, love, success, failure, or whatever
Speaker 1: else comes to mind, but all jacked up because after
Speaker 1: being in this business for as long as I have,
Speaker 1: I want to get to the bottom of what makes
Speaker 1: people tick. So listen to my new podcast, Thinking out
Speaker 1: Loud on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you
Speaker 1: get your podcasts. Hi, it's me Isaac ms Rahi And
Speaker 1: oh my god, we have such a special guest coming
Speaker 1: up on Hello Isaac. It's the fabulous Andy Cohen. He's
Speaker 1: here to talk to us about all the stuff you
Speaker 1: want to talk to Andy about and darlings. That episode
Speaker 1: is coming out on Monday, July thirty. First, listen to
Speaker 1: Hello Isaac on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get
Speaker 1: your podcasts. So, how does a half American, half Nicaraguan
Speaker 1: party girl from New Orleans. There's absolutely no journalism experience, right,
Speaker 1: the biggest story of the eighties, That's what journalist is
Speaker 1: all about. I'm a woman, wife beater T shirt, not
Speaker 1: wearing a braw curses like a sailer. I got balls
Speaker 1: bigger than any man. Dan rather used to call me
Speaker 1: his secret weapon. Listen to Journalist to every Tuesday on
Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.