1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:02,920 Speaker 1: All Zone Media. 2 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:06,480 Speaker 2: Welcome to another rewind episode of vike it Happened Here. 3 00:00:07,240 --> 00:00:09,640 Speaker 2: Last year, we did a series of episodes in the 4 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:13,600 Speaker 2: United States War and trans People. Since then, things have 5 00:00:13,680 --> 00:00:18,640 Speaker 2: only gotten worse. Even an electoral defeat, transphobic politicians across 6 00:00:18,680 --> 00:00:20,960 Speaker 2: the country have only doubled and tripled down on their 7 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:23,960 Speaker 2: attempts to wipe trans people out for good. So today 8 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 2: we're going to revisit part three of that series, called 9 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 2: the Turf International, in which we look at the transnational 10 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:34,400 Speaker 2: network of transphobes who built the modern anti trans movement 11 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 2: and see how they function in both Mexico and the US. 12 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:45,800 Speaker 2: Welcome to Ikeodappen Here, a podcast that this week is 13 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:49,320 Speaker 2: about the war on trans people. I'm your host, Christopher Wong. 14 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:53,280 Speaker 2: If you've been around the left long enough, you've probably 15 00:00:53,320 --> 00:01:00,360 Speaker 2: heard people called transclusionary radical feminism, or terfism a colonial ideology. Broadly, 16 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:03,400 Speaker 2: the accusation of colonialism is about the erasure of non 17 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 2: Western genders to fall outside the Christian gender binary. But 18 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:11,000 Speaker 2: urfs are colonial in another sense as well, exported by 19 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:13,840 Speaker 2: white academics to a network of fall feminist and anti 20 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:17,480 Speaker 2: trafficking groups, the ideology has imposed itself on the global 21 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:21,080 Speaker 2: South with devastating and violent consequences. As a product of 22 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:24,320 Speaker 2: this colonial imposition, Mexico has become one of the front 23 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:27,120 Speaker 2: lines in the war against trans people. I spoke to 24 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:30,720 Speaker 2: Emmie Flores and Juliana Neuhauser, two members of the Sexual 25 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:34,559 Speaker 2: and Gender Dissonance Resistance Network, a group of activists aligned 26 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:37,320 Speaker 2: with the Zapatistas who've been documenting and resisting the spread 27 00:01:37,319 --> 00:01:38,280 Speaker 2: of turfs in Mexico. 28 00:01:39,319 --> 00:01:44,200 Speaker 3: When the new turf waves started in Mexico several years back, 29 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:50,160 Speaker 3: at the time, I thought thought of it as something 30 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:53,240 Speaker 3: of like a radicalization that went too far, you know, 31 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:55,640 Speaker 3: like kind of like thinking back to like the New Left, 32 00:01:56,600 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 3: and there was a point during the New Left when 33 00:01:59,880 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 3: l like suddenly everybody joined a maoist cult and they 34 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 3: were angry for the right reasons, but it just went off. 35 00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:16,760 Speaker 3: At some point, I thought that's what was going on 36 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 3: in Mexico. But then it started to come out more 37 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:25,519 Speaker 3: that more and more turf groups were had ties to 38 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 3: political parties and one of the and foreign agents. And 39 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:35,680 Speaker 3: one of the one of the most dramatic cases is 40 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 3: from Teluca, a city near Mexico City. Just recently at 41 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:47,080 Speaker 3: the International Women's date protests, like there were turf groups 42 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:51,960 Speaker 3: that had made a pinata out of the trans flag, 43 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:56,480 Speaker 3: had been burning the trans flag also in this same city. 44 00:02:56,760 --> 00:02:59,919 Speaker 3: One of the main turf groups turns out that they're 45 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 3: leader is on government payroll. And if you've seen Roma, 46 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:08,680 Speaker 3: for example, the incident, the political incident that happens in 47 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:11,280 Speaker 3: that movie was based on a real incident from the 48 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 3: seventies and the tactics of that political party, which is 49 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:18,640 Speaker 3: the party that controls the state government of the state 50 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:22,840 Speaker 3: to lucas In basically it hasn't changed and they seem 51 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:26,680 Speaker 3: to have been using these turfs basically as shock troops. 52 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:30,799 Speaker 3: At one point, there were two sit ins outside the 53 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 3: state Congress, one to push for a gender identity a 54 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 3: law and another to push for the legalization of abortion, 55 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:42,080 Speaker 3: which are obviously both important things. The ladder, however, was 56 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:47,360 Speaker 3: controlled by these turf groups, who later mysteriously never seemed 57 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 3: to appear at other protests asking for the legalization of abortion, 58 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 3: but they were there. They ran off the trans encampment. 59 00:03:56,120 --> 00:04:00,520 Speaker 3: One of the big incidents was defending the Sanctity women's 60 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:03,560 Speaker 3: bathroom with barbed wire wrapped baseball bats. 61 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 2: Jesus, These groups have deep ties to right wing Mexican 62 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:11,400 Speaker 2: political parties, the police, and the growing Turf International. 63 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 4: And they seem to be very chummy with the local police. 64 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:22,360 Speaker 3: Their leader gives classes, but its like trainings to build 65 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 3: the state government. 66 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:30,320 Speaker 4: Like you know, you can see live streams of the 67 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:34,360 Speaker 4: quote unquote protests, and it was mostly them like drinking 68 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:37,960 Speaker 4: coffee with the cops, like they were on first name 69 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:41,680 Speaker 4: basis with the cops. While the other camp had like 70 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:45,240 Speaker 4: Translomen that were too scared to go to the bathroom 71 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:49,560 Speaker 4: because they were going to be attacked. And so that's 72 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:54,200 Speaker 4: the starkest group, I think, right the delcatives, which are 73 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 4: It's funny because almost every party has their own their 74 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:02,039 Speaker 4: own group. But yeah, also it's no surprised that pri 75 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:02,919 Speaker 4: is the scariest. 76 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 3: Yeah. We should also say that these groups are affiliates 77 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:12,479 Speaker 3: with Sheila Jeffries' Women's Declaration International. And so this is 78 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:17,839 Speaker 3: also a case of an ideology developed in the first world, 79 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:22,480 Speaker 3: in this case England, which is largely a safe country 80 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:26,840 Speaker 3: where even as fascist an ideology as urfism doesn't or 81 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:32,920 Speaker 3: only very rarely leads to real violence, but it gets 82 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:35,680 Speaker 3: exported to countries that are not safe where it does 83 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 3: turn into real violence. So another affiliate of Sheila Jeffreys 84 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:45,040 Speaker 3: Woman's declaration in Mexico would be LEAs Brujs del Mar, 85 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:50,359 Speaker 3: who is another case of At first they seemed to 86 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:55,599 Speaker 3: be a group that was just they just radicalized a 87 00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:58,920 Speaker 3: bit too far. Then photos came out of their leader, 88 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:01,120 Speaker 3: who was on the time one hundred a couple of 89 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:05,960 Speaker 3: years back with Felipe Calderon, an ex president of Mexico 90 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:08,599 Speaker 3: and like by far one of the worst in the 91 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:12,160 Speaker 3: country's history, and not like just. 92 00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:15,159 Speaker 4: Oh I saw you walking in the street. She was 93 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 4: at a book signing. It was not a casual encounter. 94 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:23,320 Speaker 4: It was a clear sign of admiration. And it's been 95 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:28,520 Speaker 4: more than confirmed since then that her political ambitions lie 96 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 4: with the PAN, the farthest right mainstream political party in Mexico. 97 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:40,320 Speaker 2: This political alliance between the Turfs and the right has 98 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 2: benefits for both sides. The Turfs gained funding institutional backing 99 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:47,520 Speaker 2: for their war against trans people. The right gained a 100 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:50,640 Speaker 2: way to attack the vaguely center left Mexican President Andrea's 101 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:55,000 Speaker 2: Manuel Lopez overdoor by blaming him and trans people from 102 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:58,600 Speaker 2: Mexico's horrific wave of femicides while distracting from its actual 103 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:03,880 Speaker 2: sources durn the War on drugs. Mexico's transpopulation, however, gained 104 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 2: a new Western educated threat. 105 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 4: When I say the radical feminism was a complete import 106 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 4: it's from its very beginning. In the For a long while, 107 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 4: there was like one turf in Mexico and she was 108 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 4: She's called jian Maria Yoyotel. Don't even try to pronounce 109 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 4: her name. I don't think she can even pronounce her 110 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:26,800 Speaker 4: name because she's white as hell and she always dresses 111 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:29,520 Speaker 4: like she's a fucking Rachel dollars hell from Mexico. 112 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:36,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, music irony that the first originary turf in Mexico 113 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:39,720 Speaker 3: is also the Mexican Raciel doll as well, right, because she. 114 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 4: Went abroad and was like the only Mexican everyone knew. 115 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:45,440 Speaker 4: So even though she's white as hell and has blue eyes, 116 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:50,680 Speaker 4: she started wearing some Coachella motherfucking ass feathers and shit. 117 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:55,600 Speaker 2: Right, yeah, I've seen I've seen these pictures. It's it is, 118 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 2: it is like it is. It is the Mexican ver 119 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:02,480 Speaker 2: of and not even just the beas version. It is 120 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 2: the Mexican version of those people at Cochella who like 121 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:09,040 Speaker 2: wear indigenous headdresses who are just like just like look 122 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:15,800 Speaker 2: look like they're descended from like Hydrik Himbler or something incredible, and. 123 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:19,800 Speaker 4: Like she's she has like she has like half French, 124 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 4: half Spanish name and she changed it to a half 125 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 4: Maya half Nato name. It's growth. So this this person 126 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 4: has been active since the seventies. Right, she went to 127 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:33,560 Speaker 4: she was present in the first Pride in Mexico and 128 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:36,920 Speaker 4: uh she that was that was also the two year 129 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:42,320 Speaker 4: anniversary of the sixty eight massacre. So Pride was from 130 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:45,760 Speaker 4: the start really leftist here in Mexico, but it also 131 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:50,480 Speaker 4: had these kind of people the who who went to 132 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 4: the UK, friends and the United States. And I think 133 00:08:56,840 --> 00:09:03,160 Speaker 4: she was there when uh Is Raymond was like sending 134 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:08,920 Speaker 4: her friends with guns to threatened trans women, right, so 135 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:13,959 Speaker 4: that's she. She was there when the turf Wars were 136 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:18,839 Speaker 4: at at the highest point during the seventies and then 137 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:24,640 Speaker 4: came back and she participated in a lot of history 138 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:29,680 Speaker 4: of Mexican feminism. But the time she came back in 139 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:34,240 Speaker 4: twenty sixteen with that letter with that backing because she 140 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:38,160 Speaker 4: is also close to Jenny's Raymond with the Coalition and 141 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:45,360 Speaker 4: against Trafficking in women who the Coalition against Traffiican, the 142 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:49,600 Speaker 4: Coalition against Traffickan and Women cat w has a lot 143 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:56,160 Speaker 4: of After the turf Wars, they went underground in the 144 00:09:56,440 --> 00:09:58,800 Speaker 4: in academia and the universities right because they were no 145 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:02,840 Speaker 4: longer accepted, but they were in the process of building 146 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:09,240 Speaker 4: NGOs that could globally affect policy on UH, specifically sex 147 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 4: work and trans rites. And you can tell that John 148 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:16,719 Speaker 4: Maria saw that that was her only opportunity to resurface 149 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:21,040 Speaker 4: UH and to make her seventies as she saw that 150 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:25,199 Speaker 4: the seventies redven discourse was retro now and so she 151 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:29,600 Speaker 4: became like this UH found founding matriarch for the new 152 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:34,679 Speaker 4: generation of transfos, one of them which is Laura Lequana, 153 00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:39,439 Speaker 4: who is part of FEMBA and the GEH. Maria and 154 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:43,120 Speaker 4: Lequana were not faced at all by the accusations of 155 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:48,000 Speaker 4: aligned with the reactionaries because they know their history, they 156 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 4: know where they come from, and they know that this 157 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:56,840 Speaker 4: is how Darkin survived, This is how UH, how Sheila 158 00:10:56,920 --> 00:10:59,559 Speaker 4: Jefferies and Jennie Raymond survived. This is where you get 159 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 4: the fucking in. Jean Maria and Brussel mar turned the 160 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:11,880 Speaker 4: whole environment around them into these uh well these serve questions. 161 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:16,040 Speaker 4: The only two issues that we talk about nowadays in 162 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 4: Mexican feminism are are precedent and trans people. It's kind 163 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:24,880 Speaker 4: of gross Jesus. 164 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:30,240 Speaker 3: And that like remember, like there's only a handful of 165 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:34,560 Speaker 3: states that have legalized abortion. There's femicides happening all the time, 166 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 3: and but we're we continue to debate these two issues 167 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:44,320 Speaker 3: over and over and over again like a feedback group, 168 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:48,000 Speaker 3: and like, as trans people, we don't have any choice 169 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:51,800 Speaker 3: because we're the targets of this right and it's not 170 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:57,880 Speaker 3: it's not an academic debate. Last fall, there was some 171 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:03,080 Speaker 3: tar who had taken over a public park to set 172 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 3: up their separatist space and there was a disabled CIS 173 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:11,880 Speaker 3: woman and her trans girlfriend who are denied entergy at 174 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 3: the park and threatened with tasers. And so when they're 175 00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:23,160 Speaker 3: taking over these public spaces and using violence to defend them, 176 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 3: because the next week there was a protest over this 177 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:31,800 Speaker 3: and there they taste a trans man and it's like 178 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:35,280 Speaker 3: this is like a public park, like of course we 179 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:46,640 Speaker 3: have to defend ourselves. 180 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:51,319 Speaker 2: The Coalition Against Trafficking in Women for kat w an 181 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:54,959 Speaker 2: International Anti Sex worker group, which provided a refuge for 182 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:58,320 Speaker 2: white TERFs driven from mainstream feminism in their home countries, 183 00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 2: has been a major source of terf influence in Latin America. 184 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 4: The reason there is so much important of this ideology 185 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:10,120 Speaker 4: towards radical feminists in Mexico, it's that they needed something 186 00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 4: to say and something to do and something to fill 187 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:19,960 Speaker 4: the void in organizing and in NGOs. And the people 188 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:24,640 Speaker 4: who stepped up were Jenny's Raymond's cat W Right, the 189 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:30,120 Speaker 4: Collition against Affian and Women who since the nineties spent 190 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:36,080 Speaker 4: ah a decade and a half building contacts in the 191 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:43,319 Speaker 4: Indie un in the oas in several international organisms to 192 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:46,120 Speaker 4: extend their influence across the whole content and specifically in 193 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:51,679 Speaker 4: Latin America. And you can see this affecting stuff like 194 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:55,960 Speaker 4: stuff like Venezuela where they broke up sex worker unions 195 00:13:56,320 --> 00:14:02,600 Speaker 4: two to with the the right and in Mexico. The 196 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:07,319 Speaker 4: founding leader of the Mexican branch of cat W, Teresa Ujoa, 197 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:12,040 Speaker 4: used to be a UN employee, specifically it's drug and 198 00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:16,680 Speaker 4: crime segment and before she was like a radical feminist, 199 00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:23,040 Speaker 4: she used to conduct drug raids in Japa's and Yeah 200 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:27,680 Speaker 4: and after that she became the founding member of w 201 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:32,560 Speaker 4: Latin American and the Caribbean. And with Jennie Raymond, they 202 00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 4: you can see them go together to the nineteen ninety 203 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 4: five Beijing Conference on Women and they influenced, like they 204 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:45,280 Speaker 4: were a big part of why gender is not recognized 205 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:48,360 Speaker 4: as a social construct by the UN. They allied with 206 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:52,080 Speaker 4: the Holy See, with the representative from the Vatican in 207 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:55,800 Speaker 4: the UN, got together with a couple of radical feminists 208 00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:58,520 Speaker 4: and pushed back against gender being recognized as a social 209 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:04,360 Speaker 4: construct nineteen ninety five. So that's the level of influence 210 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:09,440 Speaker 4: these groups had in Mexico. These groups, which morphed into 211 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 4: the cap W supported the Warren Rocks from the get go. 212 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 4: They were very in some of the biggest events inaugurating 213 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:26,400 Speaker 4: the Warren Drugs. They were present right there. Because if 214 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:30,760 Speaker 4: you're fighting drug trafficking, it's very easy to just sleep 215 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:33,960 Speaker 4: the word human right there. Right, No politician is gonna 216 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 4: say no. They all fucking love to say, yeah, I'm 217 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 4: hardened on human trafficking. And the way that showed itself 218 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:46,840 Speaker 4: was just targeting trans sex workers and migrant sex workers 219 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:51,640 Speaker 4: and with that and that feeding the agenda of Jennie's 220 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:55,880 Speaker 4: Raymond perfectly. Sila Jeffries gotta basically survived the whole two 221 00:15:55,920 --> 00:16:01,880 Speaker 4: thousands on writing garbage for reports for the UN. Most 222 00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:05,640 Speaker 4: of her published works during the two thousands and early 223 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:16,320 Speaker 4: twenty tens is stuff paid for Cadolu and they in 224 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:19,760 Speaker 4: twenty sixteen they started pushing for more and more anti 225 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:23,280 Speaker 4: trans legislation worldwide because they could see the writing on 226 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:29,360 Speaker 4: the world right. They were behind the Women's Declaration. The 227 00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:33,520 Speaker 4: Shila Jeffers is not okay. She is part of Cadoli. 228 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:37,360 Speaker 4: She's I think Cadouble Australia. She has her own other 229 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:40,880 Speaker 4: collectic called Space International, which is behind Foster Sesta by 230 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:44,160 Speaker 4: the way in the US, where she allied with a 231 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:50,080 Speaker 4: couple of conservative sheriffs to write that legislation. So we 232 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 4: could go on and on. How like people that read 233 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:59,520 Speaker 4: our trans issues think are gone and forgotten by history. Right, 234 00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:02,200 Speaker 4: The authors of these horrible books that haunt us to 235 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:06,200 Speaker 4: this day are still active, and not just in the US. 236 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:09,720 Speaker 4: They're active in Mexico, in the UK, in France, in 237 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:16,520 Speaker 4: South Africa, in Korea. Korea is huge in I think 238 00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:19,520 Speaker 4: I would say Korea is has as big a problem 239 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:23,199 Speaker 4: as Mexico and the UK. We just don't talk to 240 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:25,760 Speaker 4: them as much and we can't realize that. But if 241 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:30,000 Speaker 4: you check them the languages that have signed the Shila 242 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 4: Jeffers Declaration against Trands People, which is as specifically generocidal declaration, 243 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:38,480 Speaker 4: it doesn't stop at the legislation. It wants to exterminate 244 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:42,639 Speaker 4: us outright. Yeah, and most of them, you are going 245 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:44,639 Speaker 4: to see a lot of Brazilian flags, a lot of 246 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:48,520 Speaker 4: Mexican flags, a lot of Korean flags, even more than 247 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:53,080 Speaker 4: United States flags. And if you track the USA flags, 248 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:57,200 Speaker 4: it's mostly like weird randos that have yoga classes and shit. 249 00:17:57,359 --> 00:18:00,600 Speaker 4: It's not relevant politicians. But if you track the other countries, 250 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 4: you're going to find some of the biggest collectives in 251 00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:07,040 Speaker 4: their own countries. You're gonna find or just spooks, right, 252 00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:09,520 Speaker 4: You're gonna find a lot of people who have really 253 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:12,280 Speaker 4: weird careers that spend a lot of time in Italy 254 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:21,040 Speaker 4: and Uganda. It's it's a never ending ribbit whole of 255 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:26,520 Speaker 4: of of spooks, of conservatives, of has been feminists that 256 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 4: have regranted it as NGOs to get money from those 257 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:35,240 Speaker 4: groups and directed towards breaking up trans rights, towards affecting 258 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:40,439 Speaker 4: sex workers, towards breaking unions, breaking student movements. It's a 259 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:46,800 Speaker 4: global movement that is birthed by conservative thought, but getting 260 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 4: more and more reactionary and more and more organized as 261 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:50,320 Speaker 4: time goes by. 262 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:55,040 Speaker 2: That international transphobic movement has increasingly found purchase in the US. 263 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:58,879 Speaker 2: I spoke to Lee Leaville and Kai Shiver's, two members 264 00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:02,080 Speaker 2: of Health Liberation Now with intimate experience with the turf 265 00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:07,720 Speaker 2: movement who spent years particulously documenting its rise. So my 266 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:12,360 Speaker 2: first question is, can y'all explain what Wolf actually is? 267 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:15,720 Speaker 2: And I guess subsequent to that, what their relationship to 268 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:16,920 Speaker 2: hands across the aisle is. 269 00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:27,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, so Wolf is They're a transphobic feminist group with 270 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:33,159 Speaker 1: at this point extensive ties to right wing organizations. They've 271 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:38,639 Speaker 1: worked with Family Policy Alliance here Atage Foundation, Alliance Defending Freedom, Concerned, 272 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:41,760 Speaker 1: Wouin for America, Family Research Culture, among others. 273 00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:44,359 Speaker 5: But they. 274 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:50,879 Speaker 1: They got their start and they started back in twenty 275 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:56,240 Speaker 1: thirteen around when they're founded by Lear Keith, who also 276 00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:59,000 Speaker 1: was one of the leaders of Deep Green Resistance, and 277 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:03,640 Speaker 1: she basically got like kind of run out of anarchists 278 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 1: and environmentalist groups and then kind of like went over 279 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:11,040 Speaker 1: to established like turf communities to try and recruit there. 280 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:14,119 Speaker 1: So they sort of like started out trying to like 281 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:19,200 Speaker 1: recruit from these like older turf and transphobic lesbian communities. 282 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 1: And then after Trump got elected and you know, the 283 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:27,760 Speaker 1: conservative Christians on the far right became more mobilized and 284 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:31,320 Speaker 1: more empowered. They kind of like rebranded themselves and were like, oh, 285 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:34,040 Speaker 1: let's form alliances with these right wing groups, and they 286 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:39,199 Speaker 1: kind of like traded their sort of like like crunchy 287 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:43,960 Speaker 1: lesbian feminists like like image for like Kara Danski, who 288 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:49,119 Speaker 1: like you know, is a straight, fairly feminine looking woman 289 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:52,480 Speaker 1: who used to work for the CLU and like a Democrat, 290 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:54,960 Speaker 1: and like you know, she's way more presentable to like 291 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 1: a conservative audience. You know, by working with the right, 292 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:02,600 Speaker 1: then they have access to like money and power and 293 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:03,639 Speaker 1: they can get easier for the. 294 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:04,840 Speaker 5: Get on the media. 295 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:08,040 Speaker 1: Like Kidansky is no longer with Wolf, but like she 296 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:10,359 Speaker 1: was with them for years and still has relations like 297 00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:11,879 Speaker 1: like good relations with them, and she's been on the 298 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:17,480 Speaker 1: Tucker Carlson Show like many times. So I think one 299 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:21,679 Speaker 1: of the important pieces when it comes to understanding like 300 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:28,720 Speaker 1: how this relationship with the rights started. So in late 301 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:34,280 Speaker 1: twenty sixteen, Wolf put forward their filing against the US 302 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:37,560 Speaker 1: Department of Justice and US Department of Education, right, and 303 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:40,679 Speaker 1: they were going up against aspects of like trying to 304 00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:45,359 Speaker 1: reform Title NIND to include gender identity, you know, to 305 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:50,840 Speaker 1: protect folks who need to be able to use the like. 306 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:53,159 Speaker 5: Women's restroom or locker room or whatever. 307 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:55,360 Speaker 1: Right, And this is the case that they ended up 308 00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:58,479 Speaker 1: getting some of that ADA funding for. So it's like 309 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:01,720 Speaker 1: one of the first official seeds I guess of the 310 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:06,320 Speaker 1: direct collaboration ended up happening. Those a lot of that 311 00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:08,800 Speaker 1: stuff did eventually end up getting leaked, and then they 312 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:13,040 Speaker 1: started doing some more official collaborations just a few months 313 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:16,439 Speaker 1: later when they were working with like Family Policy Alliance 314 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:20,840 Speaker 1: to file amicus briefs against Gavin Grimm again on a 315 00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:22,800 Speaker 1: bathroom case. Yeah, they took something like I think it 316 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:25,720 Speaker 1: was like fifteen thousand dollars from the Alliance depending Freedom, 317 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:28,360 Speaker 1: which is one of the main like right wing groups 318 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:31,200 Speaker 1: like like trying to pass all these like anti TRAMS bills, 319 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:34,359 Speaker 1: like going after pediatric transition and trans girls and in 320 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:37,400 Speaker 1: them and sports. So they took that money and then yeah, 321 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:40,320 Speaker 1: then later like I think, like the whole working with 322 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:42,680 Speaker 1: Family Policy Alliance, I believe was the first time they 323 00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:45,560 Speaker 1: like publicly allied with with the White Ring group. 324 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:48,480 Speaker 5: I think, so that happened in January of twenty seventeen. 325 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:51,879 Speaker 1: Yeah, and then they've just sort of like, yeah, like 326 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 1: they also were involved with like the amicus brief against 327 00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:59,960 Speaker 1: was it Amy Stephens another Supreme Court case. I can't remember, 328 00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:03,720 Speaker 1: it wouldn't surprise me. And like members of both have 329 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:07,439 Speaker 1: appeared on like Heritage Foundation panels. They helped like release 330 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:10,680 Speaker 1: a parent resource guide and an anti transparent resource guide 331 00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 1: that was also sponsored by like Heritage Foundation, Family Policy Alliance. 332 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:18,720 Speaker 2: This this this is very similar to almost exactly what 333 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:21,200 Speaker 2: you see in Mexico, with just sort of slightly less 334 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:24,600 Speaker 2: physical violence, which yeah, it's it's a lot of you know. 335 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:26,879 Speaker 2: And the other thing is that these are to a 336 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:29,439 Speaker 2: large extent exactly the same organizations. And that was one 337 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:30,800 Speaker 2: of the other things I want to talk about was 338 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:34,360 Speaker 2: the influence of Sheila Jeffries and the Women's Declaration, which 339 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:39,800 Speaker 2: has been all over this whole movement. 340 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:42,399 Speaker 1: Yeah. The one thing to point out, so like you know, 341 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:46,200 Speaker 1: the Women's Declaration International is in this in the US 342 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:50,160 Speaker 1: is led by Kardanski who doo she like basically like left. 343 00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:51,680 Speaker 1: She worked at Wolf for a long time and still 344 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:54,240 Speaker 1: has lots of connections with them, is on good terms 345 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:56,679 Speaker 1: with them, but she like left and now is like 346 00:23:56,800 --> 00:24:00,359 Speaker 1: working with Women's Declaration International of the US branch. So 347 00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:04,159 Speaker 1: and also she winds up having kind of like a 348 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:06,840 Speaker 1: foot in both worlds at the same time too, So 349 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:13,600 Speaker 1: like she'll like the US chapter of Women's Declaration International 350 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:17,640 Speaker 1: previously like Women's Team in Rights campaign before they had 351 00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:19,880 Speaker 1: to rebrand, they would. 352 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:26,960 Speaker 2: But if if you if you read this, yeah. 353 00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:29,679 Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly exactly. 354 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:35,880 Speaker 1: So what what ends up happening is that Karen Danski 355 00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:43,560 Speaker 1: will either like have the chapter sponsor particular events or 356 00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:47,760 Speaker 1: she herself will become actively involved in the formation of 357 00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:51,760 Speaker 1: the events, right, which we saw happen with women pick 358 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:55,399 Speaker 1: at d C last year where they were parking themselves 359 00:24:55,400 --> 00:25:01,120 Speaker 1: outside of that was like it was a that was 360 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:04,480 Speaker 1: that was a whole big thing. Oh god, it was 361 00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:07,680 Speaker 1: a purchase that happened on International Women's Day to protest 362 00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:12,840 Speaker 1: the Equality Act. Yeah, NBC, it's not like it's people's 363 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:15,639 Speaker 1: first time dealing with the Equality Act either. 364 00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:17,359 Speaker 5: I mean, like so. 365 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:22,159 Speaker 1: Prior prior to that point which and this starts to 366 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 1: go into the like hands across the Aisle Coalition because 367 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:33,159 Speaker 1: they were actively involved in opposing the Equality Act as well. 368 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:38,560 Speaker 1: So to kind of roll back a little bit the 369 00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:40,520 Speaker 1: hands across the Aisle Coalition. 370 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:42,240 Speaker 5: This was something that started. 371 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:46,719 Speaker 1: Developing in early twenty seventeen, you know, not that long 372 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:52,440 Speaker 1: after Wolfe started building the more direct relationships with the Right, 373 00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:56,560 Speaker 1: and so that the people of this coalition would have 374 00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 1: like you would have members of the Right itself, and 375 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:03,080 Speaker 1: in the pro sets of that, towards the beginning of 376 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:09,840 Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, in May, they filed this joint letter to 377 00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:15,119 Speaker 1: the House of Representative Speaker Nancy Pelosi to oppose things 378 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:20,119 Speaker 1: like the Equality Act, and they did so alongside with 379 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:26,040 Speaker 1: Natasha Chart representing wolf Concerned Women for America, American College 380 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:29,280 Speaker 1: of Pediatricians, Family Research Council, you know, a whole bunch 381 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:31,960 Speaker 1: of really just awful names, and they're, oh, yeah, the 382 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 1: adyf was involved on that one too. Yeah. 383 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:36,720 Speaker 2: It's really the rose gallery of all of the people 384 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:40,600 Speaker 2: who were anti gay marriage until still are but have 385 00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:42,680 Speaker 2: downplayed it. And yeah, all the people who let the 386 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:45,560 Speaker 2: anti gay marriage campaigns, all of the sort of weird 387 00:26:45,640 --> 00:27:00,280 Speaker 2: right wing pseudo medical bodies. The next thing what it 388 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:03,200 Speaker 2: to ask about is what's been happening in the last 389 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:06,119 Speaker 2: couple of years with the fusion, Because you already have 390 00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:10,879 Speaker 2: your your alliance between the Turfs and the evangelicals, but 391 00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:15,080 Speaker 2: in the last couple of years we've seen a I 392 00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:17,240 Speaker 2: don't know if if full scale is the right term 393 00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:19,920 Speaker 2: to use for, but we've seen a merger of this 394 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:23,639 Speaker 2: with Save the Children Eqanon stuff. I'm wondering if you 395 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:27,200 Speaker 2: can talk about that. 396 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:26,440 Speaker 5: That's okay. 397 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:30,360 Speaker 1: So that's an interesting one because, like I've I've been 398 00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:35,600 Speaker 1: digging into the timeline of this stuff extensively. It's like 399 00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:40,640 Speaker 1: I've got hundreds hundreds of listings, trying to figure out 400 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:44,080 Speaker 1: where different pieces are coming from and trying to understand. 401 00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:45,720 Speaker 5: Like the phases. 402 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:50,439 Speaker 1: Right, so you've got like the formation, the solidification, and 403 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:53,160 Speaker 1: then the escalation, and we're kind of in the escalation 404 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:57,680 Speaker 1: stage right now. But so one of the things that 405 00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 1: I started to notice is that elements of this crossover, 406 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:09,360 Speaker 1: like the cross pollination that was happening, actually pre dated 407 00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:14,440 Speaker 1: certain key events that we now know are affiliated with QAnon. Right, 408 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:22,560 Speaker 1: So if we think about the actual development of QAnon itself, 409 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:25,000 Speaker 1: so You've got the pizza Gate thing that was happening 410 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:30,960 Speaker 1: in like October twenty sixteen. I believe that was, you know, 411 00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:35,720 Speaker 1: right before Trump was getting elected, and you know, kicking 412 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:39,640 Speaker 1: up some stuff about like you know, Hillary Clinton's emails 413 00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:42,760 Speaker 1: and stuff like that to go up against her election 414 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:46,440 Speaker 1: campaign and opposition to Trump, and then you know, folding 415 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:50,760 Speaker 1: in the harassment towards Comet Ping Pong to the point 416 00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:54,440 Speaker 1: where like Edgar Madison Wells shows up at Comet Ping 417 00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:58,200 Speaker 1: Pong in December of twenty sixteen with an AR fifteen 418 00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:00,840 Speaker 1: style rifle and starts, you know, firing off as shots 419 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:01,479 Speaker 1: and stuff like that. 420 00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:06,120 Speaker 5: Right, And so eventually. 421 00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:10,440 Speaker 1: Most people know the timeline of the q and on 422 00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:13,840 Speaker 1: drops happening around like October twenty seventeen. Like if you 423 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:17,360 Speaker 1: look up the original like the first known que drops, 424 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:21,720 Speaker 1: I believe that was like October twenty eight, twenty seventeen, 425 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:26,200 Speaker 1: on four Chan. But the thing is that if you 426 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:32,560 Speaker 1: look at references to save the Children or Save our 427 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:36,160 Speaker 1: Children on like Twitter, the hashtags, and you're also looking 428 00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:40,120 Speaker 1: for transphobia related stuff, you can actually start to see 429 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:46,120 Speaker 1: that crossover happening before the original que drops happened, Right, Yeah, 430 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:51,000 Speaker 1: I found tweets that were connecting trans inclusion education in 431 00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:54,440 Speaker 1: schools to pedophilia and using the save the Children hashtag 432 00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:58,640 Speaker 1: in August of twenty seventeen, the que drops hadn't started yet, 433 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:03,880 Speaker 1: so this is something this pattern continues to happen, right 434 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:09,960 Speaker 1: There were also multiple tweets or Facebook posts or whatever 435 00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:12,920 Speaker 1: that would start to use things like save the Children, 436 00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:15,680 Speaker 1: save our Children, wake Up America, and stuff like that 437 00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:21,480 Speaker 1: before you would have the big scale takeover by QAnon 438 00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:24,920 Speaker 1: when things were starting to get really popular, because the 439 00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:29,000 Speaker 1: save the Children thing really went viral in the summer 440 00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:34,240 Speaker 1: of twenty twenty, but you could still see elements of 441 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:41,040 Speaker 1: it before that point repeatedly. So another early instance of 442 00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:44,680 Speaker 1: using both save the Children and wake Up America hashtags 443 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:50,760 Speaker 1: started happening on April I believe that is of twenty nineteen. 444 00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:55,960 Speaker 1: And bear in mind, wake up America is a hashtag 445 00:30:56,000 --> 00:31:01,240 Speaker 1: that's not only used by QAnon proponents in relation to 446 00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:05,440 Speaker 1: the whole like acceleration as I'm trying to, you know, 447 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:10,520 Speaker 1: deep state stuff, but also like Aaron Brewer, one of 448 00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:13,560 Speaker 1: the people that was involved in some of the clinic 449 00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:17,040 Speaker 1: protests harassments, was using that. No, it wasn't just it 450 00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:19,440 Speaker 1: was wasn't just Brewer, it was like both Brewer it was. 451 00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:23,479 Speaker 1: That was the clinic protest that involved both partners Peltical 452 00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:26,200 Speaker 1: kr PEC, which Brewer was a member like one of 453 00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:27,400 Speaker 1: the founders of at the time and one of the 454 00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:31,200 Speaker 1: leaders of and uh Joey Bright's like can't I get 455 00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:33,760 Speaker 1: a witness, Like they teamed up to stage a bunch 456 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:37,000 Speaker 1: of clinic protests and they used wake up of Like 457 00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:38,840 Speaker 1: wake of America was one of the slogans that they 458 00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:40,640 Speaker 1: used in one of the hashtags. 459 00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:45,720 Speaker 2: There to make to make to make sure we're getting this. Uh, 460 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:49,000 Speaker 2: these are protests against clinics that offered gender firming care. 461 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:53,760 Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah that mm hmm yeah that 462 00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:57,280 Speaker 1: that happened that one. So yeah, the wake Up America 463 00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:02,800 Speaker 1: one was in so like City, New York City and LA. 464 00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:04,400 Speaker 5: Yeah. 465 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:08,280 Speaker 1: And they also, I mean, speaking of pastakes, they also 466 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:13,800 Speaker 1: have used the slogan pull back the Curtain, which has 467 00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:18,960 Speaker 1: also been used by uh like anti choice activists. Yeah, 468 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:21,440 Speaker 1: like that was I remember, like like finding like they 469 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:23,040 Speaker 1: use pull back the curtain a lot to be like 470 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:25,520 Speaker 1: what they mean is like they're like expose the evil 471 00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:28,680 Speaker 1: gender industry. But like there's other this like. 472 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:33,280 Speaker 5: Anti abortion group. I'm blinking on which one off the 473 00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:33,920 Speaker 5: top of my head. 474 00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:36,760 Speaker 1: But they also use that pull back the curtain to 475 00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:41,120 Speaker 1: go after planned parenthood, Yeah, which I think is like problem, 476 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:44,800 Speaker 1: like that doesn't I'm for a direct connection, but it 477 00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:48,720 Speaker 1: seems like that's too much of a coincidence in a 478 00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:50,840 Speaker 1: lot of One of the one of the things that 479 00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:53,520 Speaker 1: I really want to stress about this called like what 480 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:58,800 Speaker 1: I call tanon thing, is that like the seeds for this, 481 00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:02,240 Speaker 1: the cross pollinase that we are seeing happening between the 482 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:07,160 Speaker 1: gender critical movement, Pizzagate, and QAnon, like these were already 483 00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:12,480 Speaker 1: in place before QAnon formally developed as its own phenomenon. 484 00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:14,200 Speaker 5: This keeps happening. 485 00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:20,960 Speaker 1: It's you can't really like figure out where one particular 486 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:24,000 Speaker 1: type of rhetoric is necessarily coming from in terms of 487 00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:27,800 Speaker 1: its source, because it just keeps going back and forth repeatedly. 488 00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:30,040 Speaker 5: People are acting like. 489 00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:35,040 Speaker 1: They're coming up with a lot of the same ideas 490 00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:39,480 Speaker 1: together because in the end, in the end, they are 491 00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:43,040 Speaker 1: of the same roots. They are in fundamental agreement with 492 00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:45,840 Speaker 1: each other, whether they're calling themselves different names. 493 00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:49,520 Speaker 2: I think that's that's worries me in a lot of ways. 494 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:54,240 Speaker 2: Partly because you know, I mean, this has always been 495 00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:58,000 Speaker 2: something where if you look at the rhetoric that these 496 00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:00,880 Speaker 2: people are spreading, it's like it's explicitly the extermination is 497 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:05,400 Speaker 2: like it's it's you know, like they they're they're strochiatric terrorists, 498 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:07,040 Speaker 2: like in search of a like a quote unquote low 499 00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:09,359 Speaker 2: wolf and in a lot of you know, and in 500 00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:11,520 Speaker 2: the seventies, I think they were. There's there's a lot 501 00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:15,719 Speaker 2: more explicit violence that these people are doing directly, and 502 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:19,600 Speaker 2: now they're kind of like they're they're they're trying to 503 00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:21,879 Speaker 2: find people who will do their already work for them, 504 00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:24,080 Speaker 2: and there are places where they found them already. We've 505 00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:26,960 Speaker 2: seen this in Mexico and in the US. The people 506 00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:30,719 Speaker 2: who they seem to be recruiting are people who are 507 00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:33,239 Speaker 2: extremely dangerous. I mean, we've we've seen QAnon people have 508 00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:37,360 Speaker 2: killed enormous numbers of people. You know, We've there's a 509 00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:40,840 Speaker 2: long history of abortion clinic bombings and people getting asassinated 510 00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:42,440 Speaker 2: from that. I mean, I think, you know, one of 511 00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:47,479 Speaker 2: the connections that I've been sort of like looking at 512 00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:50,560 Speaker 2: is the extent to which this stuff is connected to 513 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:52,520 Speaker 2: the Atlanta shooting. Because if you if you look at 514 00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:55,560 Speaker 2: the stuff. The Atlanta shooter believes it's you know, like 515 00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:58,320 Speaker 2: he's in this like in the same sort of Christian 516 00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:03,280 Speaker 2: patriarchal pje and his thing is specifically about sex workers. 517 00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:06,840 Speaker 2: But hey, look if you look at uh yeah, not 518 00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:09,239 Speaker 2: particularly Asian sex workers. And you know, if if you 519 00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:10,759 Speaker 2: if you look at the anti trafficking groups and you 520 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:12,520 Speaker 2: look at the Christian AI trafficking groups and you look 521 00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:14,880 Speaker 2: at the vent diagram with them and the turfs, it's like, 522 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:24,839 Speaker 2: oh and that particular and yeah, there's there's this kind 523 00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:27,560 Speaker 2: of vice closing in on trans people where on the 524 00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:31,200 Speaker 2: one hand you have these people attempting to employ the 525 00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:34,799 Speaker 2: violence of the state, and on the other hand you 526 00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:38,600 Speaker 2: have this sort of strochiatric terrorism where they're attempting to 527 00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:42,400 Speaker 2: incite violence by sort of individuals. And then also, I mean, 528 00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:44,279 Speaker 2: I think I think there's you know, there's there's sort 529 00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:45,000 Speaker 2: of two forms of this. 530 00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:45,200 Speaker 1: Right. 531 00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:47,760 Speaker 2: There's the explicit people who are explicitly like quote unquote 532 00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:51,400 Speaker 2: political right, you have your sort of like ideological street fascist. 533 00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:55,080 Speaker 2: You have like you know, you have your people with 534 00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:58,760 Speaker 2: baseball bass covered in barred wire. But then you also 535 00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:02,839 Speaker 2: have the stuff that's been fueling antiation violence where it's 536 00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:05,880 Speaker 2: not necessarily like you know, there is this is an 537 00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:09,440 Speaker 2: organization that like haze Asian people, it's we will just 538 00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:11,920 Speaker 2: sort of passively increase the rhetoric until the level of 539 00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:12,800 Speaker 2: violence increases. 540 00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:15,480 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it kind of got like you've got the 541 00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:18,200 Speaker 1: street bashed and then you've got the intellectual fash. Yeah. 542 00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:20,239 Speaker 2: Well, and and I think but I think also there's 543 00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:22,320 Speaker 2: there's another like if it was just those people, I 544 00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:24,440 Speaker 2: think it'd be less bad. But but there's also just 545 00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:28,480 Speaker 2: the way in which just random people who are encountering 546 00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:32,560 Speaker 2: this become very quickly radicalized and it becomes part of 547 00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:34,760 Speaker 2: sort of I mean and stretch Trobic violence has always 548 00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:36,399 Speaker 2: been part of the sort of background violence the same 549 00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:39,279 Speaker 2: way that anti black and so it's I mean, you know, okay, 550 00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:41,319 Speaker 2: the level of anti black violence is much higher, but 551 00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:45,360 Speaker 2: like the level of violence against black trans people in particular, 552 00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:48,040 Speaker 2: and the level of antiation violence we've been seeing that 553 00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:50,279 Speaker 2: has just sort of be it's just a part of 554 00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:55,120 Speaker 2: the background violence of American society, and that the levels 555 00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:59,120 Speaker 2: of those things, the more this rhetoric gets circulated and 556 00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:03,080 Speaker 2: the more this activism happens, that background level of violence increases, 557 00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:06,400 Speaker 2: and that to me is also terrifying because it means 558 00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:09,440 Speaker 2: like it's not just sort of like fascisty you can track, 559 00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:10,840 Speaker 2: it's just someone on the street. 560 00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:13,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Yeah, they're just sort of like trying to 561 00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:19,480 Speaker 1: like like associate like well, I mean a lot of 562 00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:22,400 Speaker 1: the e like yeah, like people like like I feel 563 00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:26,200 Speaker 1: like in Aaron alex Ara and the Gender Mapper and 564 00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:30,280 Speaker 1: Joey Brighten stuff like that, like they're they're hardcore like eliminationists, 565 00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:32,800 Speaker 1: Like they're like they're say over and over the compinal compromise. 566 00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:36,520 Speaker 1: And I would also especially like anti fascist networks to 567 00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:40,200 Speaker 1: pay more attention to it because you know that solidarity 568 00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:46,040 Speaker 1: with trans paople is just as important as solidarity with 569 00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:49,080 Speaker 1: like a racial and ethnic minorities when it comes to 570 00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:52,359 Speaker 1: combating fast right, especially since like there are a number 571 00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:56,959 Speaker 1: of us that are in multiple categories, So like let's 572 00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:00,279 Speaker 1: all work together and try to like you know, be 573 00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:02,440 Speaker 1: proactive about combating the threat. 574 00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:06,160 Speaker 5: Right. So, my my tnon. 575 00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:11,279 Speaker 1: Collections, I guess like I only have two reports on 576 00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:15,400 Speaker 1: it so far because getting into the full detail is 577 00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:20,320 Speaker 1: just it is a lengthy project and I keep getting 578 00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:25,160 Speaker 1: distracted by the conversion therapy. 579 00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:28,680 Speaker 5: There's so much stuff to research. 580 00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:32,520 Speaker 1: And there's more like two people and yeah, anyway, so 581 00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:40,160 Speaker 1: else in terms of finding the like the original kind 582 00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:44,799 Speaker 1: of like broader views of TNN, both like what it 583 00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:47,359 Speaker 1: is in terms of like the one oh one kind 584 00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:50,920 Speaker 1: of stuff, and also like the timeline of where it 585 00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:54,160 Speaker 1: came from, you can find it on Health Liberation noow 586 00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:57,399 Speaker 1: dot com. We have a little tap there that has 587 00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:00,600 Speaker 1: like analysis and then if you go down to key issues, 588 00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:03,640 Speaker 1: you can find a TNON tag there, right, and it'll 589 00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:05,080 Speaker 1: have that stuff in there. 590 00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:09,320 Speaker 2: This has been a thing that throughout this entire series, 591 00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:12,440 Speaker 2: which is that most of the information on this stuff 592 00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:14,680 Speaker 2: has been compiled by a very small number of trans people, 593 00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:18,879 Speaker 2: and that cannot stay the states of this because there 594 00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:24,600 Speaker 2: are just not enough trans people and they are extremely overworked. Yeah, 595 00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:26,840 Speaker 2: and if that's a project that you can take up, 596 00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:27,680 Speaker 2: please do that. 597 00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:32,040 Speaker 1: Yes, please, yes, please hands on deck, all, hands on 598 00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:32,480 Speaker 1: the back. 599 00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:36,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, because the seriousness of this is such that if 600 00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:39,560 Speaker 2: you want there to be trans people living in a 601 00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:44,440 Speaker 2: way that does not actively destroy them, you have to 602 00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:45,040 Speaker 2: act now. 603 00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:45,919 Speaker 5: Yeah. 604 00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:49,319 Speaker 2: Basically, yeah, this has been it could happen here a 605 00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:52,879 Speaker 2: product of cool zone media. Suppress your local turfs before 606 00:39:52,880 --> 00:40:01,000 Speaker 2: it's too late. Goodbye. What Happen Here is a production 607 00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:02,200 Speaker 2: of cool Zone Media. 608 00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:04,960 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 609 00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:08,080 Speaker 1: coolzonemedia dot com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 610 00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:11,480 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 611 00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:14,200 Speaker 1: find sources for It could happen here, updated monthly at 612 00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:17,480 Speaker 1: coolzonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.