WEBVTT - TechStuff Classic: The Internet Kill Switch 0:00:04.400 --> 0:00:07.760 Welcome to tech Stuff, a production from I Heart Radio. 0:00:11.760 --> 0:00:14.440 Hey there, and welcome to tech Stuff. I'm your host, 0:00:14.520 --> 0:00:17.360 Jonathan Strickland. I'm an executive producer with I Heart Radio 0:00:17.400 --> 0:00:20.640 and howda tech Are Yet It's time for a tech 0:00:20.720 --> 0:00:26.320 Stuff classic episode. This episode originally published on May two 0:00:26.360 --> 0:00:31.319 thousand fifteen. It is called the Internet kill Switch, and 0:00:31.480 --> 0:00:34.960 I have a special guest, co host Ben Bolan. Hope 0:00:35.000 --> 0:00:39.120 you enjoy. Hey, can remember to turn off the Internet 0:00:39.159 --> 0:00:41.760 before you go out tonight, right, like before you leave 0:00:41.800 --> 0:00:44.360 the room, turn off the Internet. That's it's not like that. 0:00:44.400 --> 0:00:48.680 It's not I T crowd where you've got a little box, right, 0:00:49.479 --> 0:00:53.720 this jen is the Internet. It's not that it's not 0:00:53.760 --> 0:00:57.600 that good. But I thank you for your your kindness. Um. So, 0:00:58.680 --> 0:01:02.960 the so the kill switch is, in general, it's a 0:01:03.000 --> 0:01:08.360 concept that a party, most often a government, but not 0:01:08.400 --> 0:01:11.279 necessarily because we'll talk about an example in the United 0:01:11.280 --> 0:01:15.520 States that did not involve directly a government agency. But 0:01:16.480 --> 0:01:22.440 usually it's a government elects to restrict or perhaps completely 0:01:22.480 --> 0:01:29.319 eliminate access to the Internet in response to something. Right, Yes, 0:01:29.400 --> 0:01:33.199 So this differs a little bit from filtering. Yeah, because 0:01:33.240 --> 0:01:38.840 filtering is sort of a passive continual process that uh, 0:01:38.920 --> 0:01:41.480 you know, if it goes well in most countries but 0:01:41.600 --> 0:01:44.920 not all, uh, you won't really learn about it, just 0:01:45.000 --> 0:01:47.160 won't be able to get to a certain website. So 0:01:47.319 --> 0:01:49.600 a great example of that is China with a great 0:01:49.640 --> 0:01:52.640 firewall of China, right, and they call it a firewall, 0:01:52.640 --> 0:01:55.080 but really it's a web filter, and it's the whole 0:01:55.120 --> 0:01:58.200 idea is that it filters out things that the Chinese 0:01:58.280 --> 0:02:02.400 government finds objects noble and does not wish the Chinese 0:02:02.440 --> 0:02:06.600 citizenship to have access to. And uh and in that case, 0:02:06.640 --> 0:02:09.520 that is an ongoing situation, and we're going to talk 0:02:09.560 --> 0:02:11.160 a little bit about that, and a little bit about 0:02:11.200 --> 0:02:14.920 a few others as well as the more, um you know, 0:02:15.080 --> 0:02:19.400 kind of temporary but all but equally terrifying uses of 0:02:19.480 --> 0:02:24.040 shutting down Internet access for one reason or another. And 0:02:24.280 --> 0:02:30.359 generally speaking, the justifications for this fall under various versions 0:02:30.480 --> 0:02:38.440 of national security, but there are frequently, and I would argue, uh, 0:02:38.600 --> 0:02:44.440 in most cases, justifiably criticisms of that approach that perhaps 0:02:44.919 --> 0:02:49.480 there are other motivations at play besides trying to protect security, 0:02:50.400 --> 0:02:53.840 even if they're not intended. They may be, they may 0:02:53.960 --> 0:02:58.240 there may be undertones of that absolutely, absolutely because public 0:02:58.280 --> 0:03:02.920 safety would be another uh sort of umbrella term. And 0:03:03.000 --> 0:03:05.799 I don't want to be too cynical with this, but 0:03:06.200 --> 0:03:08.480 I think we can all be honest, ladies and gentlemen 0:03:08.680 --> 0:03:13.960 when we say that national security has an increasingly vague 0:03:14.040 --> 0:03:18.920 definition depending upon which state uses the phrase. Yeah, I 0:03:18.919 --> 0:03:21.359 would argue that almost every state that uses the phrase 0:03:21.440 --> 0:03:25.320 national security keeps it purposefully vague because you well, I mean, 0:03:25.320 --> 0:03:29.400 for one thing, it's impossible to anticipate everything, So I 0:03:29.400 --> 0:03:32.680 can feel some sympathy that in that respect, and the 0:03:32.720 --> 0:03:36.040 idea that if it's my job to ensure the protection 0:03:36.320 --> 0:03:39.240 of a nation's people, I don't know how much sleep 0:03:39.240 --> 0:03:44.400 I'm getting, but but then you know, it is entirely possible, 0:03:44.400 --> 0:03:47.760 because we've seen it time and again to air too 0:03:47.800 --> 0:03:51.640 far on the side of uh, you know, of of 0:03:51.760 --> 0:03:55.280 trying to protect people. And I would also argue that 0:03:55.360 --> 0:04:01.400 eliminating a massive means of communication does far worse to 0:04:01.560 --> 0:04:05.640 endanger people than uh than not doing that, like that, 0:04:05.640 --> 0:04:09.600 that you're not really promoting public safety by cutting off communication. Yeah, 0:04:09.640 --> 0:04:11.720 I really wanted to get your thoughts on this, because 0:04:11.760 --> 0:04:15.280 you're our tech expert or a texpert. That's way easier 0:04:15.320 --> 0:04:18.680 to say it just so everyone knows. Our producer hopefully 0:04:18.720 --> 0:04:22.400 cut out the four times I tried to say tech expert, Yeah, 0:04:22.440 --> 0:04:25.479 we're not gonna if I had bloopers on this show, 0:04:25.960 --> 0:04:27.800 that those would go at the end of this episode. 0:04:27.839 --> 0:04:31.599 But I don't do that, all right, So the reason 0:04:31.680 --> 0:04:33.800 that I want to hear about this is because it 0:04:33.920 --> 0:04:38.960 sounds like almost this villainous James Bond type of thing. 0:04:39.080 --> 0:04:41.520 You know, I'm going to shut down the Internet unless 0:04:41.520 --> 0:04:46.480 you give me one billion dollars. But but you raised 0:04:46.560 --> 0:04:51.600 a fantastic point um, which is that this has not 0:04:51.720 --> 0:04:54.960 only been an idea that's that's a little older than 0:04:55.000 --> 0:04:58.039 a lot of people might think. Sure, but it's by 0:04:58.160 --> 0:05:02.720 no means and uncom thing. It's their precedents for this, right. Oh, 0:05:02.760 --> 0:05:07.240 there's so many. So we're gonna start with nations other 0:05:07.320 --> 0:05:09.440 than our own. But don't worry, we will get to 0:05:09.440 --> 0:05:13.560 the United States because that, you know, I think in particular, 0:05:13.600 --> 0:05:16.720 you're talking about a country that prides itself on certain 0:05:16.760 --> 0:05:22.920 principles and it's very difficult to uh to to take 0:05:23.040 --> 0:05:26.960 this idea and have it mesh with those principles. Right. So, 0:05:27.360 --> 0:05:29.120 but before we get to that, let's talk about some 0:05:29.200 --> 0:05:33.279 other countries where at least from the perspective of of 0:05:34.080 --> 0:05:37.320 our position, we would say it's pretty cut and dry 0:05:37.440 --> 0:05:42.120 that this is a draconian approach. So again, this is 0:05:42.160 --> 0:05:45.599 from the perspective of two Americans. So we're sitting we're 0:05:45.600 --> 0:05:49.120 sitting in a pretty big seat of privilege here. But 0:05:49.360 --> 0:05:52.000 North Korea is the first example I was going to 0:05:52.080 --> 0:05:56.680 point out, and North Korea that is, if you want 0:05:56.720 --> 0:06:00.760 to talk about a nation that is very much concerned 0:06:00.760 --> 0:06:04.719 with the control of access to the Internet, it's hard 0:06:04.760 --> 0:06:08.960 to find a better representative than North Korea because, first 0:06:09.000 --> 0:06:11.240 of all, uh, let me, let me go through what 0:06:11.320 --> 0:06:12.880 you have to be able to do in order to 0:06:12.920 --> 0:06:15.400 have access to the Internet in North Korea. Alright, alright, 0:06:15.440 --> 0:06:18.080 walk me through it. Okay, So yours is in the 0:06:18.200 --> 0:06:21.000 North Korea and you're hoping at one point to connect 0:06:21.000 --> 0:06:22.680 to the Internet. Well, first, you have to obtain a 0:06:22.720 --> 0:06:25.880 license to own a personal computer. It's like having a 0:06:25.920 --> 0:06:28.480 license to own a weapon. You have to You can't 0:06:28.760 --> 0:06:30.640 you can't go out and buy a computer on your own. 0:06:30.680 --> 0:06:35.400 You have to get permission to own a computer first. Secondly, 0:06:35.400 --> 0:06:37.240 you have to be lucky enough to be able to 0:06:37.279 --> 0:06:40.799 buy one. Because the only state sanctioned source for computers 0:06:40.920 --> 0:06:43.600 is a company called Morning Panda, which is owned by 0:06:43.600 --> 0:06:48.720 the government. Um. If however, there's a caveat here, if 0:06:48.760 --> 0:06:51.400 you're somehow fortunate enough to be one of the elite 0:06:51.600 --> 0:06:54.200 in North Korea, you can skirt around this and you 0:06:54.200 --> 0:06:57.520 could actually buy an unsanctioned computer, like an like an 0:06:57.520 --> 0:07:00.480 Apple computer, like a top of the line computer that 0:07:00.600 --> 0:07:02.800 has essentially smuggled in for you. So these are the 0:07:02.839 --> 0:07:05.440 rules for the average joke This is these are the 0:07:05.480 --> 0:07:11.120 rules for fort of the population of North Korea. So 0:07:11.160 --> 0:07:14.400 if you're in that point zero zero one, then you're you. 0:07:14.400 --> 0:07:18.200 You can ignore these other rules. Uh. But third is 0:07:18.240 --> 0:07:22.640 that you would need to connect to that to a network, uh, 0:07:22.720 --> 0:07:25.520 which is not the Internet. It's called the intra neet 0:07:25.640 --> 0:07:29.559 or it's their internet called Kwangmyong which means bright Star. 0:07:30.840 --> 0:07:36.000 So that's an intranet. It's internally based in North Korea 0:07:36.080 --> 0:07:40.040 without connection to the outside Internet. But it looks kind 0:07:40.080 --> 0:07:44.320 of like the Internet, particularly the Internet of the late nineties. UM. 0:07:44.360 --> 0:07:48.360 It's running on Microsoft software that had been pirated from 0:07:48.680 --> 0:07:52.360 Japanese sources. So it's it's all like the servers are 0:07:52.360 --> 0:07:56.000 all internal servers, not connecting outside um. But in order 0:07:56.040 --> 0:07:58.360 to do that, you need to be probably either in 0:07:58.400 --> 0:08:00.360 a major city or in a university. Those are the 0:08:00.360 --> 0:08:03.360 only places to have Internet connectivity. And if you aren't 0:08:03.360 --> 0:08:05.520 in either of those two places, you're probably out of luck, 0:08:05.560 --> 0:08:09.000 because internal travel in North Korea is not permitted without 0:08:09.200 --> 0:08:13.280 a special dispensation. Yeah, so in other words, if you're 0:08:13.320 --> 0:08:16.640 not there already, you may be stuck. All right, So 0:08:16.920 --> 0:08:19.880 we've got all that taken care of. Now, let's say 0:08:19.920 --> 0:08:23.320 that you are one of the elite, and you you 0:08:23.320 --> 0:08:28.560 you merit certain consideration because of whatever whatever your position 0:08:28.600 --> 0:08:30.720 happens to me, maybe you're maybe you're like ahead of 0:08:30.760 --> 0:08:34.079 a propaganda or something along those lines. If you are 0:08:34.120 --> 0:08:37.320 one of those very few people, you can access the 0:08:37.400 --> 0:08:43.160 actual Internet with two other caveats. Well, first, first of all, 0:08:43.280 --> 0:08:45.400 here's how few there are, right, So there's twenty five 0:08:45.480 --> 0:08:49.600 million people living in North Korea. North Korea has one thousand, 0:08:49.679 --> 0:08:55.200 twenty four I P addresses. In the United States, where 0:08:55.240 --> 0:08:57.400 we have more than three million people, we have more 0:08:57.440 --> 0:09:01.600 than a billion IP addresses. So that tells you that 0:09:02.000 --> 0:09:07.000 we're talking about a tiny number of people. And the 0:09:07.000 --> 0:09:11.719 the line leading into North Korea comes from China. So 0:09:11.840 --> 0:09:18.640 your feed of the Internet is also behind the firewall. Yeah, 0:09:18.640 --> 0:09:20.280 so you are one of the few people who can 0:09:20.280 --> 0:09:22.760 access it. You're accessing it through a line that has 0:09:22.760 --> 0:09:26.240 passed through China. You might there may be a couple 0:09:26.240 --> 0:09:30.320 of satellite sources of of access which would not be 0:09:30.880 --> 0:09:35.880 limited to the Chinese firewall. But uh yeah, and from 0:09:35.880 --> 0:09:37.600 what I've heard, or at least from what people have 0:09:37.679 --> 0:09:42.120 been able to suss out, the access is super slow. Yeah, 0:09:42.120 --> 0:09:45.360 I've heard that too. Um, we're talking about the dial 0:09:45.440 --> 0:09:48.439 up sound effect. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, there have been 0:09:48.480 --> 0:09:50.600 like cyber cafes, some of them are still using dial 0:09:50.679 --> 0:09:54.719 up modems. So it's not it's not a cable or 0:09:55.040 --> 0:09:59.000 or fiber optics system or anything like that. So that 0:09:59.000 --> 0:10:02.800 that's an extreme example. And of course, obviously if the 0:10:02.840 --> 0:10:07.240 North Korean government had decided that this is not a um, 0:10:07.240 --> 0:10:09.160 not something they want anyone to have access to, it 0:10:09.160 --> 0:10:11.280 would be relatively easy to shut it down because there's 0:10:11.320 --> 0:10:14.360 just that one entry. Yeah, other than I guess mobile 0:10:14.360 --> 0:10:17.160 phones that are smuggled in maybe yeah, but even then 0:10:17.200 --> 0:10:20.079 you could as uh you know, as a government shut 0:10:20.120 --> 0:10:24.120 down the cellular systems. So in that case, it's kind 0:10:24.160 --> 0:10:26.880 of a scorched earth policy. But you can do it 0:10:27.240 --> 0:10:30.200 so anyway. That's that's probably the most extreme case, apart 0:10:30.240 --> 0:10:33.160 from maybe countries that are so they're in such a 0:10:33.160 --> 0:10:35.800 developing stage as far as the internet is concerned, that 0:10:35.840 --> 0:10:39.840 they haven't laid out an infrastructure fully yet. Those cases 0:10:40.200 --> 0:10:43.080 it may be a little different. I'm looking mostly at 0:10:43.360 --> 0:10:46.520 at countries that have had the opportunity to role out 0:10:46.520 --> 0:10:50.320 in Yeah, so that that's an extreme example, but it 0:10:50.400 --> 0:10:53.480 also shows how easily that could happen in that in 0:10:53.559 --> 0:10:56.560 that state, in the DPRK or North Korea, just to 0:10:56.600 --> 0:11:00.199 cut off that just that one point. Uh yeah. Now, 0:11:00.240 --> 0:11:03.719 whereas China is another great example that we've already talked 0:11:03.720 --> 0:11:07.720 about the firewall. So the Internet in China is is 0:11:07.960 --> 0:11:12.360 largely censored. Um, there are ways for citizens who are 0:11:12.480 --> 0:11:16.440 savvy to get around that, although it's not a safe 0:11:16.520 --> 0:11:22.600 thing to do necessarily something yeah, and you can um 0:11:22.679 --> 0:11:25.040 yeah and lots of proxies, Yeah you can. You can 0:11:25.120 --> 0:11:30.360 potentially get around some of that, although the danger of 0:11:30.440 --> 0:11:34.000 doing so is not is not insignificant. We'll be back 0:11:34.040 --> 0:11:36.679 with more of this classic episode of tech stuff after 0:11:36.760 --> 0:11:48.319 this quick break. China has also been known to use regionalized, 0:11:48.440 --> 0:11:52.560 localized kill switches in provinces where there is unrest. So, 0:11:52.600 --> 0:11:57.679 in other words, shutting down the the infrastructure that allows 0:11:57.760 --> 0:12:02.640 for communication across the Internet, but only in localized areas. 0:12:02.640 --> 0:12:06.080 We're not talking like a countrywide blackout, So this would 0:12:06.120 --> 0:12:12.840 be like maybe unrest and Tibet leads to US shut down. Yes, 0:12:13.000 --> 0:12:15.360 those are good examples. Yeah, exactly. It's the sort of 0:12:15.360 --> 0:12:18.839 thing where if the government wants to impede the ability 0:12:18.880 --> 0:12:23.199 of any protesters or voices of opposition, they can shut 0:12:23.240 --> 0:12:27.280 down the communication lines, uh and then uh kind of 0:12:27.440 --> 0:12:29.760 kind of squash that that way, or at least at 0:12:29.800 --> 0:12:33.679 least decrease their impact. There are other examples. I mean 0:12:34.520 --> 0:12:38.160 in Egypt in two thousand eleven, there was a pretty 0:12:38.240 --> 0:12:42.920 infamous result of of the the president or the outgoing 0:12:43.040 --> 0:12:48.079 president of Egypt shutting down the various services or sharing 0:12:48.080 --> 0:12:50.959 on access to various services as a means of trying 0:12:51.000 --> 0:12:57.440 to to squash protests in opposition. Syria two thousand twelve. 0:12:58.240 --> 0:13:02.280 Now this one's interesting. You know, I don't know much 0:13:02.320 --> 0:13:05.120 about this one, all right, So this one's right up 0:13:05.160 --> 0:13:07.320 your alley, Ben, This is the stuff they don't want 0:13:07.360 --> 0:13:11.800 you to know. Episode So Syria two thousand twelve. Syria 0:13:12.040 --> 0:13:16.560 is in the middle of a civil war. Internet access 0:13:16.559 --> 0:13:21.240 in Syria blacks out. It's knocked offline, so like it's 0:13:21.280 --> 0:13:24.240 like the entire country just suddenly disappears from online. It's 0:13:24.360 --> 0:13:32.240 goes black. Both sides accused the other side of sabotaging 0:13:32.600 --> 0:13:37.480 the system so that no one could use the Internet. However, 0:13:38.400 --> 0:13:44.560 according to one Mr Snowdon, neither side was responsible, and 0:13:44.640 --> 0:13:47.319 in fact it was the n s A which was 0:13:47.360 --> 0:13:52.480 attempting to infiltrate Syrian web servers to insert malware for 0:13:52.559 --> 0:13:59.439 surveillance purposes and accidentally knocked their servers offline. And then 0:13:59.720 --> 0:14:04.360 we're given just enough authority to hide their tracks rather 0:14:04.480 --> 0:14:09.319 than actually help Syria get back online. Wow, so that's 0:14:09.320 --> 0:14:13.640 a that's even more that's the states are so much higher. 0:14:13.640 --> 0:14:17.000 I'm sorry I'm stuttering, but this is mind boggling to me. 0:14:17.120 --> 0:14:21.800 This is a state shutting down another countries internet, not 0:14:21.800 --> 0:14:24.760 not on purpose, but that's kind of not important. Really, 0:14:25.040 --> 0:14:27.600 that's kind of the scariest part. Yeah, it's actually really 0:14:28.080 --> 0:14:30.240 like because then you start thinking, like, not only do 0:14:30.280 --> 0:14:32.960 you have amazing power, but you're operating on a three 0:14:33.000 --> 0:14:36.200 Stooges level. You know, your job is to install this 0:14:36.280 --> 0:14:38.880 one thing, and you've you've not You've burned the building 0:14:38.920 --> 0:14:42.200 down around you, right, and like there's one wall standing 0:14:42.280 --> 0:14:44.520 and it's got the thing you're supposed to install on it, 0:14:44.600 --> 0:14:46.960 but the rest of the building is gone. The last 0:14:46.960 --> 0:14:49.600 thing standing is the door, and the new door knob 0:14:49.760 --> 0:14:54.680 right exactly. That's it. And uh, you know, this is 0:14:55.320 --> 0:14:57.480 obviously not the same sort of thing as the kill 0:14:57.520 --> 0:15:00.400 switches we're talking about in other cases, because again, that 0:15:00.520 --> 0:15:04.000 was not the intention at the time. And this is 0:15:04.200 --> 0:15:08.080 again according to Snowden, who gave an interview with Wired 0:15:08.160 --> 0:15:11.760 and talked about this. So you know, I haven't actually 0:15:11.840 --> 0:15:15.560 read any documents that directly link an say to this 0:15:15.640 --> 0:15:19.280 event in Syria, but according to Snowden, that is what happened. 0:15:19.600 --> 0:15:25.160 So so that is something I should stress. Yeah, So 0:15:25.240 --> 0:15:28.200 that that's a great example. Another one Russia two thousand fourteen, 0:15:28.360 --> 0:15:32.840 so very recent. Uh, there was a news story in 0:15:32.840 --> 0:15:36.320 which it was reported that quote, Russian internet service providers 0:15:36.360 --> 0:15:38.960 will be required to install equipment that would make it 0:15:39.000 --> 0:15:42.720 possible to shut off Russia's access to the global Internet 0:15:43.240 --> 0:15:47.600 in the event of an emergency. And uh, Dmitri Peskov, 0:15:47.920 --> 0:15:52.680 who was Press secretary to a certain Vladimir Putin said 0:15:52.760 --> 0:15:56.720 that there was no intention to isolate Russian users from 0:15:56.760 --> 0:16:01.120 the global Internet. Uh. He playing to the inter Fact 0:16:01.240 --> 0:16:03.640 news agency that the discussions will focus on the ways 0:16:03.680 --> 0:16:09.640 to protect it from possible external actions, so essentially means 0:16:09.640 --> 0:16:14.720 of protecting Russia from cyber attacks. Okay, whether from hacker 0:16:14.800 --> 0:16:19.840 groups or from bash. There's there's also a possibility here 0:16:19.920 --> 0:16:22.960 that might be that that might be apropos for this situation, 0:16:23.080 --> 0:16:27.400 which is uh, financial catastrophes which you're shutting down an 0:16:27.440 --> 0:16:32.760 Internet connection is a great way to shut down regular trade. 0:16:32.960 --> 0:16:36.120 I'm sure it's also a criminal act. Yeah, well, and 0:16:36.520 --> 0:16:38.760 the way I think of it is and this also 0:16:38.800 --> 0:16:40.800 ties back. I'm sure we'll stress this again at the 0:16:40.840 --> 0:16:43.960 end of the episode, that's shutting down the Internet. The 0:16:43.960 --> 0:16:46.960 Internet we depend so heavily on it, not just for communications, 0:16:46.960 --> 0:16:51.520 but for uh, for for trade, you know, for finances, 0:16:51.720 --> 0:16:56.800 that doing doing something as drastic as shutting it down 0:16:56.840 --> 0:17:02.080 would be disastrous. Even if you could argue that it 0:17:02.160 --> 0:17:05.040 was justifiable, and even if it was for a short 0:17:05.080 --> 0:17:09.479 amount of time, the consequences of that action would be 0:17:09.680 --> 0:17:16.480 so tremendous as to probably in hindsight say that was 0:17:16.560 --> 0:17:18.320 probably that was not the right thing to do. There's 0:17:18.640 --> 0:17:20.639 a way, yeah, but well we'll talk more about that. 0:17:20.680 --> 0:17:23.400 So so those are some of the other countries we talk. 0:17:23.480 --> 0:17:27.680 There's also there's ongoing issues with Burundi um where there 0:17:27.720 --> 0:17:31.399 have been some discussions about using various means to shut 0:17:31.440 --> 0:17:35.360 down the ability for people to use Twitter and other 0:17:35.400 --> 0:17:39.240 social media sites. But there are a lot of different 0:17:39.240 --> 0:17:44.119 examples that there were examples during the incidents with Russia 0:17:44.119 --> 0:17:46.840 and the Ukraine. I mean, there's just tons of different 0:17:46.840 --> 0:17:51.200 examples around the world. And meanwhile, here in the United States, 0:17:51.800 --> 0:17:54.439 we often think of ourselves, we Americans often think of 0:17:54.480 --> 0:17:57.640 ourselves as sort of the the paragons of free speech 0:17:57.760 --> 0:18:01.120 and our country value that's what our country was founded on, 0:18:01.119 --> 0:18:04.240 one of the principles we were founded on. In that therefore, 0:18:04.960 --> 0:18:09.280 you know, we have a really good foundation for fair 0:18:09.800 --> 0:18:14.200 means of communication. Yeah, but the right to a free speech, 0:18:14.280 --> 0:18:17.120 like I don't agree with you, but I will defend 0:18:17.480 --> 0:18:23.719 to the death. So it sounds like, you know, we 0:18:23.760 --> 0:18:28.400 would never mess around with that sort of thing. However, Yeah, 0:18:28.480 --> 0:18:30.840 we've got a nice long history of actually putting it 0:18:30.880 --> 0:18:33.840 into policy that we can totally that by we, I 0:18:33.840 --> 0:18:37.080 mean the president can totally mess with things. I mean 0:18:37.080 --> 0:18:39.000 this goes all the way back to the age of 0:18:39.000 --> 0:18:41.600 the telegraph where the president, I think it was like 0:18:41.680 --> 0:18:44.800 nineteen eighteen, where the president was was given the authority 0:18:44.920 --> 0:18:50.880 in times of war and other major catastrophes, be able 0:18:50.880 --> 0:18:54.360 to direct the use of the telegraph systems, so that 0:18:54.920 --> 0:18:58.800 essentially superseding any other use of them and saying either 0:18:58.920 --> 0:19:03.880 they need to be dedicated specifically for whatever, or shutdown 0:19:04.000 --> 0:19:06.840 so that they can't be used for anything else. So yeah, 0:19:06.920 --> 0:19:10.480 So that's that's a startling thing because we know that 0:19:10.520 --> 0:19:12.879 this is the Communications Act, right, Well, that would be 0:19:12.880 --> 0:19:15.439 the ninet that's the next one. The next one is 0:19:15.440 --> 0:19:18.880 the Communications Act, which goes even further, right, Yeah, which 0:19:18.920 --> 0:19:23.000 is says, uh, this was by f DR, I believe, right, 0:19:23.440 --> 0:19:27.840 and this is control over the media. Uh. This this 0:19:27.960 --> 0:19:32.560 gives like electronic communication in any end all forms. Yeah. 0:19:33.080 --> 0:19:36.359 And this is one where there was argument for a 0:19:36.359 --> 0:19:39.040 long time about whether or not the Internet falls under 0:19:39.080 --> 0:19:44.120 this particular category. It's kind of in a parallel argument 0:19:44.160 --> 0:19:47.960 to net neutrality. Yes, whether you can qualify the Internet 0:19:48.000 --> 0:19:53.920 as a utility or another you know, a regulated uh 0:19:54.160 --> 0:19:57.000 entity kind of like the the telephone industry, that sort 0:19:57.040 --> 0:20:02.280 of stuff. Um, and it's it's related but not identical 0:20:02.359 --> 0:20:06.399 to that. Obviously, there there are differences, big differences between 0:20:06.400 --> 0:20:10.440 the two. But um. Nevertheless, some people say that this 0:20:10.560 --> 0:20:15.600 Act gives the President the the explicit means to be 0:20:15.680 --> 0:20:20.600 able to direct any kind of mass communication within the 0:20:20.720 --> 0:20:25.119 United States for whatever purpose. If we're talking about a 0:20:25.160 --> 0:20:30.960 time of war or other major event that threatens national security, right, 0:20:31.000 --> 0:20:35.240 and it's also illegal for anyone to not help. Yes, 0:20:35.600 --> 0:20:37.879 that's that's one of the that's one of the scary things. 0:20:37.880 --> 0:20:43.040 And it also it also absolves any communications company of 0:20:43.119 --> 0:20:46.919 any um legal proceedings to be pursued against it in 0:20:46.960 --> 0:20:50.840 the wake of this. So, in other words, using modern examples, 0:20:51.280 --> 0:20:54.080 if if the President of the United States goes to 0:20:54.160 --> 0:20:56.600 A T and T and says shut it all down, 0:20:57.200 --> 0:21:00.720 you know, Walter Peck style, and they flip the big 0:21:00.760 --> 0:21:02.440 switch and all and all the A T and T 0:21:02.600 --> 0:21:06.000 stuff goes offline, A T and T customers would not 0:21:06.160 --> 0:21:08.920 be allowed to sue A T and T for that 0:21:09.000 --> 0:21:12.679 because under this Act, A T and T is not 0:21:12.800 --> 0:21:16.360 held responsible. They were they were following the rules as 0:21:16.400 --> 0:21:20.399 laid out by the Act, and Uh, therefore they can't 0:21:20.400 --> 0:21:23.800 be sued. Now, you might be able to bring some 0:21:23.840 --> 0:21:26.600 sort of lawsuit against the government and try and have 0:21:26.680 --> 0:21:29.959 the law changed, but you wouldn't, you know, under this 0:21:30.040 --> 0:21:33.119 law you they would. They're like, listen, you know it 0:21:33.280 --> 0:21:36.160 is the law that we were following. And again it's 0:21:37.760 --> 0:21:42.720 four yeah. So uh. Meanwhile, so even if you, even 0:21:42.800 --> 0:21:46.840 if you think the Internet is is um not beholden 0:21:46.880 --> 0:21:50.280 to the same set of rules. Uh. In two thousand 0:21:50.240 --> 0:21:53.800 and six that all became moot because that's when the 0:21:53.840 --> 0:21:57.879 Department of Homeland Security adopted a policy that is called 0:21:58.000 --> 0:22:01.200 Standing Operating Procedure through oh three or s o P 0:22:01.440 --> 0:22:04.600 three oh three. And before we came in here, Ben 0:22:04.600 --> 0:22:07.880 and I had had a brief little exchange where I said, 0:22:07.880 --> 0:22:11.560 how terrifying is it to think of this as standard 0:22:11.680 --> 0:22:16.560 operating procedure? Right? Yes? Yeah? And and furthermore, how terrified 0:22:16.680 --> 0:22:22.440 is it to wonder about the other three hundreds something? Yeah? 0:22:22.480 --> 0:22:25.640 And that's assuming there weren't more after three oh three? Right? 0:22:26.600 --> 0:22:29.000 What else? Like, are we in violation of s OP 0:22:29.320 --> 0:22:32.840 for nineteen or Something's just a small tangent. This reminds 0:22:32.840 --> 0:22:35.000 me of when I was in London with my wife 0:22:35.119 --> 0:22:38.639 and we saw a sign that said no busting in 0:22:38.680 --> 0:22:41.119 the London underground, which will come back to in just 0:22:41.160 --> 0:22:43.400 a second, but in the London underground. And I turned 0:22:43.400 --> 0:22:45.240 to my wife and said, what is it? And she said, 0:22:45.320 --> 0:22:48.680 I don't know. Are we doing it? Like I sure 0:22:48.680 --> 0:22:51.400 hope not, because there's because it's apparently against the law 0:22:51.400 --> 0:22:54.640 and we could get fined. So and obviously, I mean 0:22:54.720 --> 0:22:57.440 for those who don't know, busking is is public performance 0:22:57.480 --> 0:22:59.720 of various types of asking for money in return for 0:22:59.720 --> 0:23:02.840 public performance. But at the time we had no idea. 0:23:02.920 --> 0:23:04.640 So it's like that sort of thing, like are we 0:23:04.720 --> 0:23:08.959 violating something? And and here's the deal. This particular standard 0:23:09.000 --> 0:23:14.639 operating procedure was adopted pretty much in secrecy, right, Like 0:23:14.720 --> 0:23:19.440 there's there's no there's no publicly available record of exactly 0:23:20.080 --> 0:23:25.199 what what what sort of um situation has to be 0:23:25.240 --> 0:23:28.440 in place in order for the Department of Homeland Security 0:23:28.520 --> 0:23:31.000 to execute s OP three oh three, right or what 0:23:31.119 --> 0:23:36.280 s sort of oversight? Yeah, yeah, there's there's no there's 0:23:36.280 --> 0:23:40.200 no way for us to know because it's not published publicly. Uh, 0:23:40.240 --> 0:23:46.679 and that that is a real issue of of some concern. Now, Um, 0:23:47.240 --> 0:23:50.280 one thing I should say, said s OP three oh 0:23:50.359 --> 0:23:52.360 three is not an Internet kill switch in the same 0:23:52.400 --> 0:23:55.159 sense as you know, something that you would see in 0:23:55.200 --> 0:23:59.320 North Korea or or whatever. It's UM, it's meant to 0:23:59.400 --> 0:24:03.680 be localized, very much so, to the point where the 0:24:04.320 --> 0:24:07.399 most of the language talks about using it to cut 0:24:07.440 --> 0:24:14.000 off cellular service, mobile service, and wireless service within specific 0:24:14.040 --> 0:24:20.200 areas like a tunnel or a bridge or maybe a municipality. Yeah, yeah, maybe. 0:24:20.240 --> 0:24:25.879 And this, uh, this is strange because we know that 0:24:26.280 --> 0:24:30.000 something like this has occurred right in San Francisco, right, 0:24:30.200 --> 0:24:33.320 and before I talk about the San Francisco one, which 0:24:34.400 --> 0:24:40.439 is extremely problematic. UM. The whole reason why this was 0:24:40.480 --> 0:24:44.600 adopted in two thousand six stems from some attacks in 0:24:44.720 --> 0:24:48.200 London that happened in two thousand five. We've got more 0:24:48.240 --> 0:24:50.680 to say in this classic episode of tech stuff after 0:24:50.800 --> 0:25:01.680 these quick messages. So in July of two thousand five, 0:25:02.200 --> 0:25:07.200 there were the London underground bombings. On July seven, about 0:25:07.240 --> 0:25:11.639 eight fifty in the morning in London time, UH, three 0:25:12.320 --> 0:25:16.080 bombs in three different locations in the London London underground 0:25:16.160 --> 0:25:20.520 system UH exploded within a minute of each other, like 0:25:20.560 --> 0:25:25.600 within fifty seconds, all three had exploded. UH fifty two 0:25:25.640 --> 0:25:28.360 civilians were well. There was a fourth one that exploded 0:25:28.440 --> 0:25:31.280 an hour later on a double decker bus. So three 0:25:31.320 --> 0:25:33.480 were on trains, one was on a double decker bus 0:25:33.680 --> 0:25:37.760 and happened an hour later. Fifty two people were fifty 0:25:37.760 --> 0:25:40.960 two civilians were killed. Uh seven people were injured, and 0:25:41.000 --> 0:25:47.000 the four suicide bombers died as as well. I mean, um, 0:25:47.119 --> 0:25:50.919 so the United States looked at this, and I also remember, 0:25:51.080 --> 0:25:54.920 obviously this is also after nine eleven and two thousand one. 0:25:55.240 --> 0:25:58.359 So the United States looks at this, and they the 0:25:58.400 --> 0:26:01.440