WEBVTT - Jonathan Adler and Simon Doonan on Marriage and Creativity 0:00:00.800 --> 0:00:08.760 Hi, Katie, Hi Brian. Well, today's episode everyone has a 0:00:08.880 --> 0:00:13.280 very fun origin story. It all started with Afternoon Chief 0:00:13.400 --> 0:00:17.560 but of course, which we do daily. Sure remember our 0:00:17.640 --> 0:00:20.400 series of London episodes back in June. Well, while we 0:00:20.400 --> 0:00:23.200 were there, we had to sneak away from work to 0:00:23.280 --> 0:00:26.200 have some finger sandwiches and a pot of tea, and 0:00:26.239 --> 0:00:28.040 we thought what better place to do with than at 0:00:28.040 --> 0:00:31.800 this amazing hotel called Clarridges, which has a very rich 0:00:31.880 --> 0:00:34.720 and storied history and an elegant tea by the way, 0:00:34.760 --> 0:00:37.840 and that's where we ran into today's guests, Simon Junan 0:00:37.960 --> 0:00:41.480 and Jonathan Adler. They were sitting, remember Ryan, right near 0:00:41.600 --> 0:00:45.120 us at another table, and I was so excited to 0:00:45.200 --> 0:00:49.880 see these fellow, our fellow Americans in the middle of Clarridges. 0:00:50.080 --> 0:00:53.599 I had met them both before, but we got reacquainted 0:00:53.680 --> 0:00:59.040 over scones and clotted cream and we decided, hey, why 0:00:59.040 --> 0:01:01.760 don't you come beyond our podcast? We just book everywhere 0:01:01.760 --> 0:01:04.400 we go anyway, Not to mention Katie, they're quite a 0:01:04.480 --> 0:01:08.360 style power couple. Simon has been called the world's most 0:01:08.360 --> 0:01:11.920 famous window dresser for years. He made the whimsical and 0:01:11.959 --> 0:01:16.000 witty window displays for Barneys, where he currently works as 0:01:16.040 --> 0:01:19.000 their creative Ambassador at large. I would love that job 0:01:19.280 --> 0:01:21.759 on that title. I just don't want the large part 0:01:23.280 --> 0:01:28.319 creative ambassador trim it's spelled anyway. Uh. Jonathan, meanwhile, is 0:01:28.360 --> 0:01:33.080 a potter turned house swears guru. He he's known for 0:01:33.160 --> 0:01:37.360 his namesake brand and the line of boutiques that he runs, 0:01:37.480 --> 0:01:41.000 which sell bold and modern home goods around the world. 0:01:41.200 --> 0:01:43.800 And Brian, we've been talking for some time about wanting 0:01:43.840 --> 0:01:47.360 to have some couples on the pod. What can I say, 0:01:47.400 --> 0:01:50.440 I'm romantic at heart, but they are a very cute 0:01:50.480 --> 0:01:52.840 couple and a very successful one. They seem to have 0:01:52.880 --> 0:01:56.440 a really happy dynamic and they've been together for many years. 0:01:56.440 --> 0:01:58.320 So today is our first time having a couple of 0:01:58.360 --> 0:02:00.920 guests together on the show. Before we get to our 0:02:00.960 --> 0:02:05.160 conversation with Simon and Jonathan, we have a quick announcement. Katie. 0:02:05.160 --> 0:02:07.320 You know what they say about best laid plans. Yes, 0:02:07.400 --> 0:02:10.000 they of mice and men. They often go awry that 0:02:10.080 --> 0:02:12.720 they do. Some of our listeners may recall that at 0:02:12.720 --> 0:02:15.519 the end of last week's episode, we mentioned our plans 0:02:15.560 --> 0:02:18.799 for a two part audio documentary series marking the tenure 0:02:18.800 --> 0:02:23.119 anniversary of Katie's interviews with Sarah Palin. Those docks are 0:02:23.160 --> 0:02:25.600 still in the works, ladies and gentlemen, but the series 0:02:25.800 --> 0:02:28.480 is going to start next week instead of this week 0:02:28.720 --> 0:02:31.520 because we're still fine tuning the episodes. We want them 0:02:31.600 --> 0:02:35.280 to really shine. What can I say, we're perfectionist people. 0:02:35.680 --> 0:02:37.960 We hope you like them. Well, we can eventually listen 0:02:38.000 --> 0:02:40.480 to them now. In the meantime, we're very excited to 0:02:40.560 --> 0:02:45.600 bring you this week's episode, the dynamic duo of Simon 0:02:45.800 --> 0:02:52.680 and Jonathan. So we thought we'd start by asking you 0:02:52.840 --> 0:02:56.640 about how you met. It was in it was on 0:02:56.680 --> 0:03:01.400 a blind date. So set the scene, Simon, you start, well, 0:03:01.440 --> 0:03:04.640 a friend of mine said to me, very en passant 0:03:05.160 --> 0:03:09.000 as a say you should mind, said you should go 0:03:09.040 --> 0:03:12.200 on a date with Jonathan Adler, And I thought, oh, yeah, 0:03:12.240 --> 0:03:15.080 that'd be fun. I vaguely knew who he was. We 0:03:15.080 --> 0:03:18.359 were already selling his ceramics at Barney's at the time, 0:03:18.400 --> 0:03:20.760 where I was working, and so a lot of people 0:03:20.800 --> 0:03:24.160 think Johnny kind of shagged his way into Barney's, but 0:03:24.360 --> 0:03:27.680 I'm here to tell you he didn't. We didn't. He 0:03:27.720 --> 0:03:30.919 didn't sleep his way to the top floor. That's pretty 0:03:30.960 --> 0:03:34.679 a way of saying it. And then so we made 0:03:34.680 --> 0:03:39.480 a date and and yeah, we made a blind date. 0:03:39.560 --> 0:03:41.800 And it's funny. The friend who set us up said 0:03:41.800 --> 0:03:44.320 to me, oh, you should date Simon Dounan. And at 0:03:44.320 --> 0:03:47.000 the time I was like a kind of bohemian clay 0:03:47.040 --> 0:03:51.960 spattered potter and Simon was miss Thing, fashion superstar juggernaut, 0:03:52.040 --> 0:03:54.680 and I thought, you know, this is not this is 0:03:54.720 --> 0:03:56.920 going to be an oil and water situation, Like I'm 0:03:56.960 --> 0:03:59.800 too gritty and crunchy and real and he's too miss things. 0:04:00.360 --> 0:04:04.480 Put to um. Now, twenty four years later, I can 0:04:04.480 --> 0:04:06.440 tell you the truth, which is that we did a 0:04:06.480 --> 0:04:09.680 complete bait and switch. I am totally like a little 0:04:09.680 --> 0:04:14.240 fancy pants miss Thing and Simon's actually quite crunchy and bohemian. 0:04:14.360 --> 0:04:17.400 So I think, like in many relationships, like the old 0:04:17.480 --> 0:04:21.120 bait and switch happened big time and you were, by 0:04:21.160 --> 0:04:23.599 the way, Simon a bit of a cougar. I can 0:04:23.640 --> 0:04:27.040 relate to that because you were forty two and Jonathan 0:04:27.120 --> 0:04:29.919 was twenty eight when you all met. Yeah, and the 0:04:30.040 --> 0:04:33.040 weird thing is we've never thought about it that much. 0:04:33.560 --> 0:04:36.640 The bigger difference was he was on rollerblades and covered 0:04:36.680 --> 0:04:39.560 in clay and carrying a backpack, and I was an 0:04:39.600 --> 0:04:43.160 executive vice president of creative services at Barney's. I had 0:04:43.160 --> 0:04:45.840 a corporate job, so that was a bigger difference in 0:04:45.920 --> 0:04:49.480 the age difference. And I remember us going out running 0:04:49.520 --> 0:04:52.679 and I could run faster than him. Stuff like that. 0:04:52.640 --> 0:04:56.480 That is ancient history that you hold on to, that, 0:04:56.760 --> 0:05:00.080 little buddy, You hold onto that. So Jonathan bothered you 0:05:00.160 --> 0:05:03.040 with a lot of direct questions. I read, yes, you 0:05:03.160 --> 0:05:07.360 sort of looked into your eyes and just started quizzing you. Um, definitely, 0:05:07.600 --> 0:05:11.560 like Johnny was asked me almost like an hr interview 0:05:11.800 --> 0:05:15.479 like so blah blah blah, and ask me questions and 0:05:16.040 --> 0:05:19.400 which you answered monosyllabic ly and just sat there. So 0:05:19.480 --> 0:05:22.080 of course I had no choice but to continue the interview. 0:05:23.200 --> 0:05:24.719 I'd be like, I'd be like, so, do you have 0:05:24.760 --> 0:05:30.640 any siblings, Like, yeah, I have a sister, yes, crickets, okay, Well, 0:05:31.080 --> 0:05:35.839 and then what's your who's your favorite cultural thing? Like, um, 0:05:35.880 --> 0:05:41.800 you know Johnny's background, Jewish, creative, you know his family. 0:05:41.880 --> 0:05:44.880 They don't stop talking my family. I don't remember them 0:05:44.880 --> 0:05:47.720 starting talking, you know, like it was that was very 0:05:47.760 --> 0:05:49.440 much a cultural thing. And I don't mean that in 0:05:49.440 --> 0:05:52.120 a critical way. In fact, you all both come from 0:05:52.240 --> 0:05:55.960 fairly unconventional families, and that's one of the things I 0:05:56.000 --> 0:06:00.080 think that brought you together. Very different unconventional families. But 0:06:00.160 --> 0:06:02.840 Jonathan described your family, You grew up in New Jersey. 0:06:02.880 --> 0:06:04.680 I grew up in New Jersey, but not New Jersey, 0:06:04.680 --> 0:06:06.599 New Jersey. I grew up in like a little tiny 0:06:06.680 --> 0:06:10.520 farmtown three hours outside of New York called Bridgeton. That's 0:06:10.640 --> 0:06:13.760 very um, kind of in the middle of nowhere, quite remote, 0:06:14.200 --> 0:06:19.400 rural but not picturesque. Um. And as I'm keeping it, 0:06:19.440 --> 0:06:22.840 I'm just keeping it one. I'm sorry Bridgeton, if you're listening. 0:06:23.400 --> 0:06:27.440 And yeah, my family was sort of Jewish intellectual. My 0:06:27.520 --> 0:06:29.800 mother like was living in New York and working for 0:06:29.880 --> 0:06:32.360 Vogue when she met my dad and they got married 0:06:32.360 --> 0:06:34.039 and he said, all right, darling, we're gonna go to 0:06:34.080 --> 0:06:36.680 my hometown. And so they were kind of fish out 0:06:36.680 --> 0:06:39.719 of water. Um, my whole family was. And yeah, my 0:06:39.839 --> 0:06:42.359 dad spent all of his life making art in the 0:06:42.360 --> 0:06:44.720 basement of our groovy modern house, and my mom is 0:06:44.760 --> 0:06:48.279 sort of a creative person. So it was a very 0:06:48.320 --> 0:06:52.480 strange and remote childhood. And I am you know, I 0:06:52.560 --> 0:06:56.520 was gay living in rural America, and one day I 0:06:56.560 --> 0:06:59.200 discovered pottery and that was that, and that kind of 0:06:59.440 --> 0:07:05.480 really was my refuge from rural America. What about your siblings, 0:07:05.839 --> 0:07:09.480 We're all the same. Actually, I have two older siblings, 0:07:09.480 --> 0:07:11.760 were both they got the brains in the family. They 0:07:11.760 --> 0:07:14.960 went to like Colombia and Yale, and they're both hyper intellectual. 0:07:15.280 --> 0:07:17.840 And my sister is a law professor at m i U. 0:07:18.000 --> 0:07:21.480 My brother's like an economist and an artist. So we're 0:07:21.480 --> 0:07:25.560 all freaks, yes. But speaking of freaks, we moved now 0:07:25.640 --> 0:07:30.200 to Simon's family and you called them the Adams family. 0:07:30.600 --> 0:07:33.720 You had this insane description of your childhood in the 0:07:33.800 --> 0:07:38.160 Rooming House. Can you give our audience some of that color. Well, 0:07:38.200 --> 0:07:40.840 I've written, I've sort of written a few books that 0:07:41.200 --> 0:07:44.240 have a lot of autobiographical material in them. And I 0:07:44.320 --> 0:07:46.560 guess I had a choice. I could have written it 0:07:46.640 --> 0:07:50.080 like a misery memoir, or I wrote it through the 0:07:50.160 --> 0:07:53.280 lens of humor, which I think psychologically is easier for 0:07:53.360 --> 0:07:57.400 me than you know, the painful bits. But basically, my 0:07:57.520 --> 0:08:02.200 parents were that generation that Tom Rocock called the great generation, right, 0:08:02.240 --> 0:08:05.920 they were the greatest, greatest, Like they left my mom 0:08:06.000 --> 0:08:08.720 left school at thirteen, my dad left school at fifteen, 0:08:08.800 --> 0:08:13.040 they joined the Royal Air Force subsequently, and at the 0:08:13.160 --> 0:08:15.200 end of the war they met in a soup kitchen 0:08:15.720 --> 0:08:18.360 because they both run away from homes. They both couldn't 0:08:18.440 --> 0:08:21.320 go home, so they met in a soup kitchen. They 0:08:21.360 --> 0:08:24.400 had me and my sister pretty quickly and we lived 0:08:24.440 --> 0:08:27.360 in a two room flat, no kitchen and bathroom. After 0:08:27.400 --> 0:08:31.200 the war, people didn't have anything. There was no reparation 0:08:31.280 --> 0:08:35.319 money coming to England, so it was like squalid. But 0:08:35.360 --> 0:08:37.760 my mother always says that was the most happiest time. 0:08:38.440 --> 0:08:40.520 And then um, but just to set the scene a 0:08:40.520 --> 0:08:43.959 little bit, your grandmother who had had a lobotomy, lived 0:08:44.000 --> 0:08:47.600 on the bottom floor. Well, no, you're jumping ahead, right, 0:08:48.040 --> 0:08:50.960 that's the right juncture because we lived in this very 0:08:51.000 --> 0:08:55.400 small attic. And then my grandmother who had had a lobotomy, 0:08:55.480 --> 0:08:59.600 came out of the institution and she had some cash 0:09:00.160 --> 0:09:03.760 how enough to buy this rambling old house and we 0:09:03.800 --> 0:09:05.400 all moved in there and it became a sort of 0:09:05.480 --> 0:09:09.880 rooming house for our various relatives and lodges, and that's 0:09:09.880 --> 0:09:13.760 where I spent most of my childhood. Schizophrenic uncle Ken 0:09:13.880 --> 0:09:16.080 lived on the second floor. There was a lot of 0:09:16.120 --> 0:09:21.040 mental illness. My grandfather had committed suicide. My uncle commits 0:09:21.040 --> 0:09:24.800 suicide like a lot of alcoholism, mental illness. I mean, 0:09:25.080 --> 0:09:27.439 it actually does sound a bit like the Island of 0:09:27.760 --> 0:09:30.960 Misfit Toys. On the other hand, it's a very serious 0:09:31.160 --> 0:09:35.640 thing that you were surrounded by people who had these issues, 0:09:35.679 --> 0:09:38.240 and I'm curious how you were able, Simon to just 0:09:38.320 --> 0:09:43.640 kind of stay focused and and emerged for work. Yeah. Well, 0:09:43.679 --> 0:09:46.559 I I give my parents a lot of credit for that. 0:09:46.600 --> 0:09:51.600 They had very strong personalities. They're extremely resilient, you know. 0:09:51.720 --> 0:09:54.840 They my sister and I both gay, you know, and 0:09:54.920 --> 0:09:58.360 back then you didn't come out to your parents, You 0:09:58.400 --> 0:10:02.200 didn't talk about it. You just fled as soon as 0:10:02.240 --> 0:10:04.400 you could. And but the best way to do it 0:10:04.440 --> 0:10:07.520 was to go to college because if your parents didn't 0:10:07.520 --> 0:10:09.040 have any money, the government would pay for you to 0:10:09.120 --> 0:10:11.840 go to college. And I felt great. So I was 0:10:11.880 --> 0:10:15.720 like an insanely diligent student for my A levels and 0:10:15.800 --> 0:10:18.640 I got into Manchester University. And that was how you 0:10:19.360 --> 0:10:22.680 got out. Then you start to reinvent yourself, find out 0:10:22.679 --> 0:10:25.079 who you are and blah blah blah. It's in the 0:10:25.120 --> 0:10:31.040 nineteen sixties self discovery, you know, gay liberation, blah blah, blah. 0:10:31.160 --> 0:10:33.680 So that was sort of my liberation blah blah blah. 0:10:33.720 --> 0:10:36.280 And how did how did your folks when you were 0:10:36.679 --> 0:10:39.760 when you realize that you were gatting your sister as well, Simon, 0:10:40.400 --> 0:10:43.719 that was a time when it wasn't embraced, much less accepted. 0:10:43.800 --> 0:10:46.960 So what was that like for you that experience. Well, 0:10:47.040 --> 0:10:50.880 I vividly remember like realizing I was gay, and very 0:10:50.920 --> 0:10:54.400 quickly I realized, oh, it's also illegal. And I think 0:10:54.440 --> 0:10:56.680 my dad was sort of seeing which way the wind 0:10:56.760 --> 0:10:58.960 was blowing and he said to me, oh, yeah, there 0:10:59.040 --> 0:11:01.680 was homicide actuals. You know, they all get put in 0:11:01.760 --> 0:11:05.079 prison or they get blackmailed or blah blah blah. I 0:11:05.120 --> 0:11:07.160 mean he sensed it, yeah, and he was trying to 0:11:07.200 --> 0:11:10.160 put me off going in that direction. But I was 0:11:10.200 --> 0:11:13.520 always reading magazines, you know, and I was always looking 0:11:13.559 --> 0:11:16.080 to the horizon to see, oh, the beautiful people on 0:11:16.120 --> 0:11:19.480 the horizon living groovy lives in London. And I would 0:11:19.520 --> 0:11:24.000 read about these swinging sixties people like Robert Fraser and 0:11:24.520 --> 0:11:29.040 Christopher Gibbs and the Stones and Maryanne Faithful, and I 0:11:29.120 --> 0:11:31.120 was like, oh, I want some of that. I could 0:11:31.120 --> 0:11:34.480 see on the horizon where no one cared what you were, 0:11:34.720 --> 0:11:38.640 you know that the emerging counterculture, the emerging culture of 0:11:38.640 --> 0:11:42.760 the swinging sixties. I could see it within screaming distance. 0:11:42.840 --> 0:11:46.160 And we lived not far from London, so I was 0:11:46.360 --> 0:11:49.240 like getting on the train and going hitching up to 0:11:49.360 --> 0:11:53.319 Carnaby Street and thinking, yeah, these are my people, fashion people, 0:11:53.400 --> 0:11:58.080 gay people, flamboyant people. So I saw an escape route. 0:11:58.600 --> 0:12:00.959 And what about you, Jonathan, I mean, by the way, 0:12:01.000 --> 0:12:02.719 you know you went to Brown It's not like you're 0:12:02.760 --> 0:12:05.640 the black sheep of the family incidentally, in terms of 0:12:05.679 --> 0:12:10.160 your intellect. But was it challenging for you as a 0:12:10.840 --> 0:12:14.120 young gay man in Bridge to New Jersey? Of course 0:12:14.120 --> 0:12:15.760 it was. I'll tell you all about it first. I 0:12:15.800 --> 0:12:18.240 just want to mention like it's once I was talking 0:12:18.240 --> 0:12:22.280 about his childhood. The Dickensian nature of his childhood is 0:12:22.320 --> 0:12:24.600 so startling. And I was just laughing because I was 0:12:24.600 --> 0:12:26.440 thinking about when I was talking about our first meeting 0:12:26.480 --> 0:12:29.000 and how I thought, oh, he's a little miss fancy pants, 0:12:29.040 --> 0:12:32.920 you know, fashionist, a little realizing the Dickensian backstory and 0:12:33.080 --> 0:12:36.720 what that little fella had accomplished. Yes, of course, growing 0:12:36.760 --> 0:12:40.679 up gay, of course it was very challenging. And you know, 0:12:40.840 --> 0:12:43.880 I knew as most gay men do. Quite early that 0:12:43.920 --> 0:12:45.880 I was gay. It was like I knew immediately, and 0:12:45.920 --> 0:12:48.679 I think, you know, there's I think it was one 0:12:48.679 --> 0:12:51.400 of that different weirdly, you know, even though there's a 0:12:51.440 --> 0:12:54.520 big age difference. You didn't walk into some utopia God, 0:12:54.559 --> 0:12:59.439 but he was all gay positive. It was weirdly, you know, similar. Yeah, No, 0:12:59.520 --> 0:13:02.280 there was no way I could have been out as 0:13:02.280 --> 0:13:06.800 a gay like that was not well and Brown some 0:13:06.840 --> 0:13:09.240 people were, but you'd be shocked how many of my 0:13:09.400 --> 0:13:13.120 friends from Brown came out after college. Um, I graduated 0:13:13.160 --> 0:13:14.840 in eight eight, and of course people were out, but 0:13:14.920 --> 0:13:19.000 it was still strangely difficult. And um, when I think 0:13:19.040 --> 0:13:22.040 about why gay people are as creative as gay people are, 0:13:22.080 --> 0:13:24.559 which I think is one of the great mysteries of gayness, 0:13:24.600 --> 0:13:28.240 like why are people so creative? And I'm not the 0:13:28.280 --> 0:13:30.480 most spiritual person, but part of me just thinks like 0:13:30.559 --> 0:13:33.520 maybe that's what we're put on earth for. But another 0:13:33.559 --> 0:13:37.160 part of me thinks that the gay experience is growing 0:13:37.280 --> 0:13:40.800 up and kind of operating on two levels simultaneously, and 0:13:40.840 --> 0:13:43.400 I think it really sharpens your senses. So you know, 0:13:43.600 --> 0:13:46.400 one has to sort of go through life as if 0:13:46.480 --> 0:13:48.760 you're going through life and go through all the motions, 0:13:48.800 --> 0:13:50.840 which you are, but you're also aware of the whole 0:13:50.840 --> 0:13:53.920 time that you're sort of hiding something and you're there's 0:13:53.920 --> 0:13:57.880 something inauthentic, and of course that's challenging. But I think 0:13:57.960 --> 0:14:00.520 the flip side of it is that it it makes 0:14:00.520 --> 0:14:04.000 you a little bit sharper and perhaps you know, one 0:14:04.040 --> 0:14:07.199 has to live slightly more vivid fantasy life as a 0:14:07.280 --> 0:14:10.000 gay and maybe that's the source of gay creativity. I 0:14:10.040 --> 0:14:11.880 don't know. It's something I think about a lot. It 0:14:12.000 --> 0:14:14.480 is interesting. It's weird when you think about some of 0:14:14.520 --> 0:14:17.480 the most brilliant people in the history of the world 0:14:18.080 --> 0:14:21.600 and their contributions, so many of them were gay. Yeah, 0:14:21.840 --> 0:14:25.680 we're like a creative libera. Yes, exactly who she was. 0:14:26.880 --> 0:14:30.880 I mean, I was thinking of Michelangelo, right, and Leonardo 0:14:30.920 --> 0:14:34.400 da Vinci, one of them. I was thinking Abold, I 0:14:34.440 --> 0:14:38.920 don't know what it was, or Michelangelo or both. We'll 0:14:38.920 --> 0:14:42.080 take both. So can we ask you a question about 0:14:42.080 --> 0:14:44.720 your relationship that I think would apply both to gay 0:14:44.720 --> 0:14:47.960 couples and straight couples. I read and you can correct 0:14:48.040 --> 0:14:50.720 if this is wrong, that you basically haven't had any 0:14:50.760 --> 0:14:54.200 commitment issues, that you bought a house together, or you 0:14:54.240 --> 0:14:57.760 rent an apartment together eighteen months in. How did you 0:14:57.800 --> 0:15:00.760 two just clap eyes on each other and know this 0:15:00.880 --> 0:15:03.920 is it and make it work. All these years we 0:15:04.040 --> 0:15:09.600 just had really low expectations. I was like, Oh, he'll do. 0:15:10.440 --> 0:15:17.160 Actually it's beautiful. Yeah, this is very New York. So 0:15:17.240 --> 0:15:21.520 Sliman had just bought this fabulous apartment when I first 0:15:21.600 --> 0:15:23.720 met him, and it was an apartment that was kind 0:15:23.720 --> 0:15:25.600 of legendary and I had always noticed it, and when 0:15:25.600 --> 0:15:27.720 I found out he bought it, I was like, Oh, 0:15:27.800 --> 0:15:30.560 you'll do, and that it was really about the nice 0:15:31.240 --> 0:15:34.400 about the apartment story for your vows when you got married, 0:15:34.440 --> 0:15:38.000 because it's just so heartwarming. Like many New Yorkers, it 0:15:38.040 --> 0:15:41.200 was real estate play. You know. I love the fact 0:15:41.200 --> 0:15:45.680 that you both have created this life based on your creativity. 0:15:45.880 --> 0:15:50.120 And I'm fascinated by how people choose a career or 0:15:50.440 --> 0:15:54.359 are lucky enough to turn their passion into their profession. 0:15:55.200 --> 0:15:58.080 Every morning I get up and I thank the Lord 0:15:58.360 --> 0:16:01.760 that I was able to have a job where I 0:16:01.840 --> 0:16:05.080 was able to do stuff that I found creatively stimulating. 0:16:05.200 --> 0:16:09.800 And that and even my corporate years of Barney's, it 0:16:09.920 --> 0:16:13.000 was always stimulating. It was always creative I was involved 0:16:13.040 --> 0:16:15.560 in so much stuff, and I never took that for 0:16:15.640 --> 0:16:19.000 granted because the town I grew up in it was 0:16:19.160 --> 0:16:21.480 like the local factories, that's where you worked. And I 0:16:21.520 --> 0:16:23.760 did do that in the summers, and so I saw 0:16:23.800 --> 0:16:26.000 what that was like. So to have a job where 0:16:26.000 --> 0:16:30.200 you're consumed with passion, even if it's just making paper 0:16:30.240 --> 0:16:33.120 mache props or a window, but you're having fun, You're 0:16:33.160 --> 0:16:36.000 like you care about it, like that is such a gift. 0:16:36.320 --> 0:16:38.880 You have a vision for what you're doing. How did 0:16:38.920 --> 0:16:41.640 you how did you tap into that? How did you 0:16:41.720 --> 0:16:47.160 discover what would give you joy? It was quite specific. Actually, 0:16:48.160 --> 0:16:51.280 I moved to London after college and I worked in 0:16:51.280 --> 0:16:54.000 in stores. You know, that's what everybody did back then. 0:16:54.000 --> 0:16:55.720 If they weren't shut what to do? They got a 0:16:55.760 --> 0:16:59.400 job in a store, so selling fashion when they had stores, 0:16:59.520 --> 0:17:06.120 right remember that number store. And I used to watch 0:17:06.160 --> 0:17:08.320 the window display people and I thought, well, they're busy 0:17:08.359 --> 0:17:11.800 all day. Their work day isn't contingent on customers coming in. 0:17:12.119 --> 0:17:14.480 So I thought I could do that. Doesn't seem that complicated. 0:17:14.520 --> 0:17:20.600 So then I got a job at Aquascutum, great British 0:17:20.640 --> 0:17:26.440 outerwear and Umbrella Frumpy but very is what the queen traditional, 0:17:26.640 --> 0:17:28.920 what the queen was when she's out with the corgis, 0:17:29.440 --> 0:17:32.440 had the aquascutum. So it was great because the windows 0:17:32.440 --> 0:17:35.600 were very elaborate, and I was a shlap you know. 0:17:35.640 --> 0:17:39.480 I was carrying ladders, paint, carrying the mannequins, stuff like that. 0:17:39.520 --> 0:17:43.280 And I said in London in the nine exactly. And 0:17:43.320 --> 0:17:47.320 then for extra cash I used to go into smaller 0:17:47.320 --> 0:17:50.320 boutiques and say, oh, who does your window. I'm a 0:17:50.320 --> 0:17:53.000 window dresser. I'll give me five quid and I'll do 0:17:53.080 --> 0:17:54.800 your window once a month. So I had a lot 0:17:54.800 --> 0:17:59.320 of these freelance jobs, and one of them was quite noteworthy. 0:17:59.400 --> 0:18:02.320 It was a store on Savile Row and it was 0:18:02.359 --> 0:18:06.600 the first trendy tailor on Savile Row called Tommy Nutter 0:18:07.320 --> 0:18:10.000 and Tommy Nutter and you t t e R. He 0:18:10.160 --> 0:18:12.720 was this legendary guy who's the first one to take 0:18:12.760 --> 0:18:16.919 those old Savile Row idea and make it trendy. So 0:18:17.000 --> 0:18:20.840 he made Mick Jagger's wedding suit when Mick married Bianca 0:18:20.920 --> 0:18:23.760 and he's wearing the white. He made clothes for Elton 0:18:23.880 --> 0:18:28.119 John and the people from that era. So they wanted fun, 0:18:28.280 --> 0:18:31.639 crazy windows. So that is when I started to do 0:18:31.760 --> 0:18:33.760 things where I put like a coffin in the window 0:18:33.800 --> 0:18:36.679 with a mannequin in it, or like, you know, I 0:18:36.720 --> 0:18:39.880 found all these little stuffed rats and made little tuxedos 0:18:39.960 --> 0:18:43.800 for them. They wanted things that were edgy and sort 0:18:43.840 --> 0:18:46.600 of a little more punk rock. And that's when I 0:18:46.720 --> 0:18:50.680 tapped into like, oh, like, if you do something unconventional, 0:18:51.359 --> 0:18:54.080 you'll get attention. People are like it, you get more work. 0:18:54.080 --> 0:18:57.920 And and one day this guy is incredible guy called 0:18:57.920 --> 0:19:00.879 Tommy Purse. He came in and he said, oh, you 0:19:00.960 --> 0:19:03.399 should come work for me in l A. So I 0:19:03.520 --> 0:19:05.440 was twenty five, and I just got on a plane 0:19:05.480 --> 0:19:07.200 and went to live in l A. When I was five. 0:19:07.280 --> 0:19:09.520 And what did you do for Tommy Persum? I did 0:19:09.680 --> 0:19:12.480 dressed his windows at his store, which was then it 0:19:12.560 --> 0:19:16.639 was called Maxfield. Still that which is an iconic l 0:19:16.720 --> 0:19:20.879 as from l A. Yeah, well you may not remember 0:19:20.880 --> 0:19:22.879 what it used to be next to the Troubador. I 0:19:22.920 --> 0:19:25.439 do remember that. And I did those windows with these 0:19:25.520 --> 0:19:29.159 vintage mannequins that Tommy collected. That was where I had 0:19:29.240 --> 0:19:34.399 my swinging, degenerate, crazy twenties, was mostly in l A. 0:19:34.880 --> 0:19:38.320 Do you believe that you were in some ways responsible 0:19:38.480 --> 0:19:42.679 for changing or transforming what was considered sort of window 0:19:42.800 --> 0:19:45.679 dressing into a real art form. Well, there was a 0:19:45.720 --> 0:19:49.879 group of people who were doing that. Um, some of 0:19:49.920 --> 0:19:54.120 them are still around, like Linda Fargo from Bogdors, Candy 0:19:54.160 --> 0:19:57.520 Pratt's Price from Vogue used to do these crazy punk 0:19:57.640 --> 0:20:00.600 rock windows at Bloomingdals. There was. It was a movement 0:20:00.880 --> 0:20:05.520 of because windows are great, because the democratic everyone sees them. 0:20:05.680 --> 0:20:08.240 You can really communicate to a lot of people. So 0:20:08.760 --> 0:20:12.240 I was one of several people, and unfortunately many of 0:20:12.280 --> 0:20:15.000 the great ones died of AIDS. I mean I could 0:20:15.000 --> 0:20:19.399 sit here listing them all and it's Colin Birch, Bob Benzio. 0:20:19.680 --> 0:20:22.920 There was a ton of great people who in the 0:20:22.960 --> 0:20:26.320 early eighties they died of AIDS. So Linda and I 0:20:26.359 --> 0:20:29.800 often say God, for all those people I'd stuck around, 0:20:29.840 --> 0:20:32.439 Maybe would we have gotten our moment? Would we have? 0:20:32.520 --> 0:20:35.240 Because there was so many talented people. It's so interesting 0:20:35.320 --> 0:20:39.240 too to me because here's this art form that's so ephemeral, 0:20:39.960 --> 0:20:43.359 but also, as you said, so democratic, a way to 0:20:43.640 --> 0:20:47.480 gather community. I love looking at people looking at windows. 0:20:47.520 --> 0:20:50.800 The sad thing is windows have kind of become less 0:20:50.800 --> 0:20:52.920 relevant than they used to be like when I first 0:20:52.960 --> 0:20:55.960 moved to New York and Simon's windows were so legendary. 0:20:56.240 --> 0:20:58.359 There will be like people on throned on the streets 0:20:58.400 --> 0:21:01.639 waiting for the reveal. That was, of course, before cell phones. 0:21:02.280 --> 0:21:05.679 Now that kind of democracy and shared experience of windows 0:21:05.720 --> 0:21:12.240 seems to be disappearing. Really, Yeah, people phones taking the 0:21:12.280 --> 0:21:13.919 picture of the window so they can share it on 0:21:13.960 --> 0:21:17.840 social media. Not actually, although I still do see people 0:21:18.280 --> 0:21:23.000 around the holidays, holiday around you know, blooming Dale's and 0:21:23.240 --> 0:21:27.200 Sacks and of course Barney's. And then from the window 0:21:27.320 --> 0:21:29.400 dressing and then Jonathan, We're going to get to your 0:21:29.440 --> 0:21:31.639 sort of career in a second, But from the window 0:21:31.720 --> 0:21:35.080 dressing you went. It allowed you to branch out in 0:21:35.080 --> 0:21:39.920 incredible ways. Well, I when I did my book, Pizza Kaplan, 0:21:40.000 --> 0:21:42.240 who was the editor of The New York Observer, he 0:21:42.359 --> 0:21:45.000 said to me, oh, you should Your book is funny. 0:21:45.040 --> 0:21:47.560 You should come right a column for us. So during 0:21:47.560 --> 0:21:49.359 the day I was working at Barney's, then I go 0:21:49.400 --> 0:21:51.439 home and bang out this weekly column for the New 0:21:51.520 --> 0:21:54.400 York Observer. And Pizza Kaplan was just one of those 0:21:54.480 --> 0:22:02.520 very special people in the newspaper. Yes, fire him, Yeah, 0:22:02.560 --> 0:22:05.000 I'm not quite sure how that played out, but Jared 0:22:05.040 --> 0:22:08.720 Kushner ended up buying The Observer. Yes, and did you 0:22:08.840 --> 0:22:12.440 work at all under Jared Kushner? Um? Yeah, under isn't 0:22:12.440 --> 0:22:16.560 the preposition because you know, you know the paper. So 0:22:16.600 --> 0:22:19.240 I was one of many people just banging out their 0:22:19.240 --> 0:22:22.680 column and sending it in and um, yeah, we overlapped there. 0:22:22.720 --> 0:22:25.080 But you know I would see him at the Christmas party. 0:22:25.320 --> 0:22:28.480 You I know, Jonathan encouraged Simon to write that column 0:22:28.960 --> 0:22:32.440 because you said you've got to do this. I hate 0:22:32.480 --> 0:22:36.800 to give Simon compliments and clear r L. I typically 0:22:36.840 --> 0:22:40.080 do not. However, I will keep it real. In this thing, 0:22:40.480 --> 0:22:46.160 Simon is a bizarre Polly math who is visually extraordinarily 0:22:46.200 --> 0:22:49.680 gifted but can write like no one else. And it's 0:22:49.720 --> 0:22:52.200 like I think it might be an English thing where 0:22:52.480 --> 0:22:56.160