1 00:00:00,800 --> 00:00:08,760 Speaker 1: Hi, Katie, Hi Brian. Well, today's episode everyone has a 2 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:13,280 Speaker 1: very fun origin story. It all started with Afternoon Chief 3 00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 1: but of course, which we do daily. Sure remember our 4 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 1: series of London episodes back in June. Well, while we 5 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:23,200 Speaker 1: were there, we had to sneak away from work to 6 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:26,200 Speaker 1: have some finger sandwiches and a pot of tea, and 7 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:28,040 Speaker 1: we thought what better place to do with than at 8 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:31,800 Speaker 1: this amazing hotel called Clarridges, which has a very rich 9 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:34,720 Speaker 1: and storied history and an elegant tea by the way, 10 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:37,840 Speaker 1: and that's where we ran into today's guests, Simon Junan 11 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:41,480 Speaker 1: and Jonathan Adler. They were sitting, remember Ryan, right near 12 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 1: us at another table, and I was so excited to 13 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:49,880 Speaker 1: see these fellow, our fellow Americans in the middle of Clarridges. 14 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:53,599 Speaker 1: I had met them both before, but we got reacquainted 15 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:59,040 Speaker 1: over scones and clotted cream and we decided, hey, why 16 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 1: don't you come beyond our podcast? We just book everywhere 17 00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:04,400 Speaker 1: we go anyway, Not to mention Katie, they're quite a 18 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 1: style power couple. Simon has been called the world's most 19 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:11,920 Speaker 1: famous window dresser for years. He made the whimsical and 20 00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:16,000 Speaker 1: witty window displays for Barneys, where he currently works as 21 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 1: their creative Ambassador at large. I would love that job 22 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:21,759 Speaker 1: on that title. I just don't want the large part 23 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:28,319 Speaker 1: creative ambassador trim it's spelled anyway. Uh. Jonathan, meanwhile, is 24 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:33,080 Speaker 1: a potter turned house swears guru. He he's known for 25 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:37,360 Speaker 1: his namesake brand and the line of boutiques that he runs, 26 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:41,000 Speaker 1: which sell bold and modern home goods around the world. 27 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:43,800 Speaker 1: And Brian, we've been talking for some time about wanting 28 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:47,360 Speaker 1: to have some couples on the pod. What can I say, 29 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:50,440 Speaker 1: I'm romantic at heart, but they are a very cute 30 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 1: couple and a very successful one. They seem to have 31 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 1: a really happy dynamic and they've been together for many years. 32 00:01:56,440 --> 00:01:58,320 Speaker 1: So today is our first time having a couple of 33 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:00,920 Speaker 1: guests together on the show. Before we get to our 34 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:05,160 Speaker 1: conversation with Simon and Jonathan, we have a quick announcement. Katie. 35 00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 1: You know what they say about best laid plans. Yes, 36 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:10,000 Speaker 1: they of mice and men. They often go awry that 37 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 1: they do. Some of our listeners may recall that at 38 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:15,519 Speaker 1: the end of last week's episode, we mentioned our plans 39 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:18,799 Speaker 1: for a two part audio documentary series marking the tenure 40 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:23,119 Speaker 1: anniversary of Katie's interviews with Sarah Palin. Those docks are 41 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:25,600 Speaker 1: still in the works, ladies and gentlemen, but the series 42 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 1: is going to start next week instead of this week 43 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:31,520 Speaker 1: because we're still fine tuning the episodes. We want them 44 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:35,280 Speaker 1: to really shine. What can I say, we're perfectionist people. 45 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:37,960 Speaker 1: We hope you like them. Well, we can eventually listen 46 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 1: to them now. In the meantime, we're very excited to 47 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:45,600 Speaker 1: bring you this week's episode, the dynamic duo of Simon 48 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:52,680 Speaker 1: and Jonathan. So we thought we'd start by asking you 49 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:56,640 Speaker 1: about how you met. It was in it was on 50 00:02:56,680 --> 00:03:01,400 Speaker 1: a blind date. So set the scene, Simon, you start, well, 51 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:04,640 Speaker 1: a friend of mine said to me, very en passant 52 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:09,000 Speaker 1: as a say you should mind, said you should go 53 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:12,200 Speaker 1: on a date with Jonathan Adler, And I thought, oh, yeah, 54 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:15,080 Speaker 1: that'd be fun. I vaguely knew who he was. We 55 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:18,359 Speaker 1: were already selling his ceramics at Barney's at the time, 56 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:20,760 Speaker 1: where I was working, and so a lot of people 57 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 1: think Johnny kind of shagged his way into Barney's, but 58 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:27,680 Speaker 1: I'm here to tell you he didn't. We didn't. He 59 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:30,919 Speaker 1: didn't sleep his way to the top floor. That's pretty 60 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:34,679 Speaker 1: a way of saying it. And then so we made 61 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:39,480 Speaker 1: a date and and yeah, we made a blind date. 62 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:41,800 Speaker 1: And it's funny. The friend who set us up said 63 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 1: to me, oh, you should date Simon Dounan. And at 64 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 1: the time I was like a kind of bohemian clay 65 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 1: spattered potter and Simon was miss Thing, fashion superstar juggernaut, 66 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 1: and I thought, you know, this is not this is 67 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 1: going to be an oil and water situation, Like I'm 68 00:03:56,960 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 1: too gritty and crunchy and real and he's too miss things. 69 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 1: Put to um. Now, twenty four years later, I can 70 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:06,440 Speaker 1: tell you the truth, which is that we did a 71 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 1: complete bait and switch. I am totally like a little 72 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 1: fancy pants miss Thing and Simon's actually quite crunchy and bohemian. 73 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:17,400 Speaker 1: So I think, like in many relationships, like the old 74 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:21,120 Speaker 1: bait and switch happened big time and you were, by 75 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:23,599 Speaker 1: the way, Simon a bit of a cougar. I can 76 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:27,040 Speaker 1: relate to that because you were forty two and Jonathan 77 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:29,919 Speaker 1: was twenty eight when you all met. Yeah, and the 78 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:33,040 Speaker 1: weird thing is we've never thought about it that much. 79 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 1: The bigger difference was he was on rollerblades and covered 80 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:39,560 Speaker 1: in clay and carrying a backpack, and I was an 81 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:43,160 Speaker 1: executive vice president of creative services at Barney's. I had 82 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:45,840 Speaker 1: a corporate job, so that was a bigger difference in 83 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:49,480 Speaker 1: the age difference. And I remember us going out running 84 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:52,679 Speaker 1: and I could run faster than him. Stuff like that. 85 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:56,480 Speaker 1: That is ancient history that you hold on to, that, 86 00:04:56,760 --> 00:05:00,080 Speaker 1: little buddy, You hold onto that. So Jonathan bothered you 87 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:03,040 Speaker 1: with a lot of direct questions. I read, yes, you 88 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:07,360 Speaker 1: sort of looked into your eyes and just started quizzing you. Um, definitely, 89 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:11,560 Speaker 1: like Johnny was asked me almost like an hr interview 90 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:15,479 Speaker 1: like so blah blah blah, and ask me questions and 91 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:19,400 Speaker 1: which you answered monosyllabic ly and just sat there. So 92 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 1: of course I had no choice but to continue the interview. 93 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:24,719 Speaker 1: I'd be like, I'd be like, so, do you have 94 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:30,640 Speaker 1: any siblings, Like, yeah, I have a sister, yes, crickets, okay, Well, 95 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:35,839 Speaker 1: and then what's your who's your favorite cultural thing? Like, um, 96 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 1: you know Johnny's background, Jewish, creative, you know his family. 97 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 1: They don't stop talking my family. I don't remember them 98 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:47,720 Speaker 1: starting talking, you know, like it was that was very 99 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 1: much a cultural thing. And I don't mean that in 100 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:52,120 Speaker 1: a critical way. In fact, you all both come from 101 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:55,960 Speaker 1: fairly unconventional families, and that's one of the things I 102 00:05:56,000 --> 00:06:00,080 Speaker 1: think that brought you together. Very different unconventional families. But 103 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:02,840 Speaker 1: Jonathan described your family, You grew up in New Jersey. 104 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:04,680 Speaker 1: I grew up in New Jersey, but not New Jersey, 105 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:06,599 Speaker 1: New Jersey. I grew up in like a little tiny 106 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 1: farmtown three hours outside of New York called Bridgeton. That's 107 00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 1: very um, kind of in the middle of nowhere, quite remote, 108 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 1: rural but not picturesque. Um. And as I'm keeping it, 109 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:22,840 Speaker 1: I'm just keeping it one. I'm sorry Bridgeton, if you're listening. 110 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:27,440 Speaker 1: And yeah, my family was sort of Jewish intellectual. My 111 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:29,800 Speaker 1: mother like was living in New York and working for 112 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:32,360 Speaker 1: Vogue when she met my dad and they got married 113 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:34,039 Speaker 1: and he said, all right, darling, we're gonna go to 114 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:36,680 Speaker 1: my hometown. And so they were kind of fish out 115 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:39,719 Speaker 1: of water. Um, my whole family was. And yeah, my 116 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:42,359 Speaker 1: dad spent all of his life making art in the 117 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:44,720 Speaker 1: basement of our groovy modern house, and my mom is 118 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:48,279 Speaker 1: sort of a creative person. So it was a very 119 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:52,480 Speaker 1: strange and remote childhood. And I am you know, I 120 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 1: was gay living in rural America, and one day I 121 00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 1: discovered pottery and that was that, and that kind of 122 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:05,480 Speaker 1: really was my refuge from rural America. What about your siblings, 123 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:09,480 Speaker 1: We're all the same. Actually, I have two older siblings, 124 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 1: were both they got the brains in the family. They 125 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 1: went to like Colombia and Yale, and they're both hyper intellectual. 126 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 1: And my sister is a law professor at m i U. 127 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 1: My brother's like an economist and an artist. So we're 128 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 1: all freaks, yes. But speaking of freaks, we moved now 129 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:30,200 Speaker 1: to Simon's family and you called them the Adams family. 130 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 1: You had this insane description of your childhood in the 131 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:38,160 Speaker 1: Rooming House. Can you give our audience some of that color. Well, 132 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 1: I've written, I've sort of written a few books that 133 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:44,240 Speaker 1: have a lot of autobiographical material in them. And I 134 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 1: guess I had a choice. I could have written it 135 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:50,080 Speaker 1: like a misery memoir, or I wrote it through the 136 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:53,280 Speaker 1: lens of humor, which I think psychologically is easier for 137 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 1: me than you know, the painful bits. But basically, my 138 00:07:57,520 --> 00:08:02,200 Speaker 1: parents were that generation that Tom Rocock called the great generation, right, 139 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 1: they were the greatest, greatest, Like they left my mom 140 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 1: left school at thirteen, my dad left school at fifteen, 141 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:13,040 Speaker 1: they joined the Royal Air Force subsequently, and at the 142 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:15,200 Speaker 1: end of the war they met in a soup kitchen 143 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:18,360 Speaker 1: because they both run away from homes. They both couldn't 144 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:21,320 Speaker 1: go home, so they met in a soup kitchen. They 145 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:24,400 Speaker 1: had me and my sister pretty quickly and we lived 146 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:27,360 Speaker 1: in a two room flat, no kitchen and bathroom. After 147 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 1: the war, people didn't have anything. There was no reparation 148 00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:35,319 Speaker 1: money coming to England, so it was like squalid. But 149 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:37,760 Speaker 1: my mother always says that was the most happiest time. 150 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 1: And then um, but just to set the scene a 151 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:43,959 Speaker 1: little bit, your grandmother who had had a lobotomy, lived 152 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 1: on the bottom floor. Well, no, you're jumping ahead, right, 153 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:50,960 Speaker 1: that's the right juncture because we lived in this very 154 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:55,400 Speaker 1: small attic. And then my grandmother who had had a lobotomy, 155 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:59,600 Speaker 1: came out of the institution and she had some cash 156 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 1: how enough to buy this rambling old house and we 157 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:05,400 Speaker 1: all moved in there and it became a sort of 158 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 1: rooming house for our various relatives and lodges, and that's 159 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:13,760 Speaker 1: where I spent most of my childhood. Schizophrenic uncle Ken 160 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:16,080 Speaker 1: lived on the second floor. There was a lot of 161 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 1: mental illness. My grandfather had committed suicide. My uncle commits 162 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:24,800 Speaker 1: suicide like a lot of alcoholism, mental illness. I mean, 163 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:27,439 Speaker 1: it actually does sound a bit like the Island of 164 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:30,960 Speaker 1: Misfit Toys. On the other hand, it's a very serious 165 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 1: thing that you were surrounded by people who had these issues, 166 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:38,240 Speaker 1: and I'm curious how you were able, Simon to just 167 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:43,640 Speaker 1: kind of stay focused and and emerged for work. Yeah. Well, 168 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:46,559 Speaker 1: I I give my parents a lot of credit for that. 169 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 1: They had very strong personalities. They're extremely resilient, you know. 170 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:54,840 Speaker 1: They my sister and I both gay, you know, and 171 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:58,360 Speaker 1: back then you didn't come out to your parents, You 172 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:02,200 Speaker 1: didn't talk about it. You just fled as soon as 173 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:04,400 Speaker 1: you could. And but the best way to do it 174 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:07,520 Speaker 1: was to go to college because if your parents didn't 175 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:09,040 Speaker 1: have any money, the government would pay for you to 176 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:11,840 Speaker 1: go to college. And I felt great. So I was 177 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:15,720 Speaker 1: like an insanely diligent student for my A levels and 178 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:18,640 Speaker 1: I got into Manchester University. And that was how you 179 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:22,680 Speaker 1: got out. Then you start to reinvent yourself, find out 180 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:25,079 Speaker 1: who you are and blah blah blah. It's in the 181 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 1: nineteen sixties self discovery, you know, gay liberation, blah blah, blah. 182 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:33,680 Speaker 1: So that was sort of my liberation blah blah blah. 183 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 1: And how did how did your folks when you were 184 00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:39,760 Speaker 1: when you realize that you were gatting your sister as well, Simon, 185 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:43,719 Speaker 1: that was a time when it wasn't embraced, much less accepted. 186 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:46,960 Speaker 1: So what was that like for you that experience. Well, 187 00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 1: I vividly remember like realizing I was gay, and very 188 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:54,400 Speaker 1: quickly I realized, oh, it's also illegal. And I think 189 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:56,680 Speaker 1: my dad was sort of seeing which way the wind 190 00:10:56,760 --> 00:10:58,960 Speaker 1: was blowing and he said to me, oh, yeah, there 191 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:01,680 Speaker 1: was homicide actuals. You know, they all get put in 192 00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:05,079 Speaker 1: prison or they get blackmailed or blah blah blah. I 193 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 1: mean he sensed it, yeah, and he was trying to 194 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 1: put me off going in that direction. But I was 195 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:13,520 Speaker 1: always reading magazines, you know, and I was always looking 196 00:11:13,559 --> 00:11:16,080 Speaker 1: to the horizon to see, oh, the beautiful people on 197 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:19,480 Speaker 1: the horizon living groovy lives in London. And I would 198 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 1: read about these swinging sixties people like Robert Fraser and 199 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 1: Christopher Gibbs and the Stones and Maryanne Faithful, and I 200 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:31,120 Speaker 1: was like, oh, I want some of that. I could 201 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:34,480 Speaker 1: see on the horizon where no one cared what you were, 202 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 1: you know that the emerging counterculture, the emerging culture of 203 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 1: the swinging sixties. I could see it within screaming distance. 204 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:46,160 Speaker 1: And we lived not far from London, so I was 205 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 1: like getting on the train and going hitching up to 206 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:53,319 Speaker 1: Carnaby Street and thinking, yeah, these are my people, fashion people, 207 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:58,080 Speaker 1: gay people, flamboyant people. So I saw an escape route. 208 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:00,959 Speaker 1: And what about you, Jonathan, I mean, by the way, 209 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:02,719 Speaker 1: you know you went to Brown It's not like you're 210 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:05,640 Speaker 1: the black sheep of the family incidentally, in terms of 211 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:10,160 Speaker 1: your intellect. But was it challenging for you as a 212 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:14,120 Speaker 1: young gay man in Bridge to New Jersey? Of course 213 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 1: it was. I'll tell you all about it first. I 214 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 1: just want to mention like it's once I was talking 215 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 1: about his childhood. The Dickensian nature of his childhood is 216 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:24,600 Speaker 1: so startling. And I was just laughing because I was 217 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:26,440 Speaker 1: thinking about when I was talking about our first meeting 218 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 1: and how I thought, oh, he's a little miss fancy pants, 219 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:32,920 Speaker 1: you know, fashionist, a little realizing the Dickensian backstory and 220 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:36,720 Speaker 1: what that little fella had accomplished. Yes, of course, growing 221 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:40,679 Speaker 1: up gay, of course it was very challenging. And you know, 222 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:43,880 Speaker 1: I knew as most gay men do. Quite early that 223 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 1: I was gay. It was like I knew immediately, and 224 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:48,679 Speaker 1: I think, you know, there's I think it was one 225 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:51,400 Speaker 1: of that different weirdly, you know, even though there's a 226 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 1: big age difference. You didn't walk into some utopia God, 227 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:59,439 Speaker 1: but he was all gay positive. It was weirdly, you know, similar. Yeah, No, 228 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 1: there was no way I could have been out as 229 00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:06,800 Speaker 1: a gay like that was not well and Brown some 230 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:09,240 Speaker 1: people were, but you'd be shocked how many of my 231 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 1: friends from Brown came out after college. Um, I graduated 232 00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:14,840 Speaker 1: in eight eight, and of course people were out, but 233 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:19,000 Speaker 1: it was still strangely difficult. And um, when I think 234 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:22,040 Speaker 1: about why gay people are as creative as gay people are, 235 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:24,559 Speaker 1: which I think is one of the great mysteries of gayness, 236 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:28,240 Speaker 1: like why are people so creative? And I'm not the 237 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:30,480 Speaker 1: most spiritual person, but part of me just thinks like 238 00:13:30,559 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 1: maybe that's what we're put on earth for. But another 239 00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:37,160 Speaker 1: part of me thinks that the gay experience is growing 240 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:40,800 Speaker 1: up and kind of operating on two levels simultaneously, and 241 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 1: I think it really sharpens your senses. So you know, 242 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 1: one has to sort of go through life as if 243 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 1: you're going through life and go through all the motions, 244 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:50,840 Speaker 1: which you are, but you're also aware of the whole 245 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 1: time that you're sort of hiding something and you're there's 246 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:57,880 Speaker 1: something inauthentic, and of course that's challenging. But I think 247 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 1: the flip side of it is that it it makes 248 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:04,000 Speaker 1: you a little bit sharper and perhaps you know, one 249 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:07,199 Speaker 1: has to live slightly more vivid fantasy life as a 250 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:10,000 Speaker 1: gay and maybe that's the source of gay creativity. I 251 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 1: don't know. It's something I think about a lot. It 252 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:14,480 Speaker 1: is interesting. It's weird when you think about some of 253 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:17,480 Speaker 1: the most brilliant people in the history of the world 254 00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:21,600 Speaker 1: and their contributions, so many of them were gay. Yeah, 255 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:25,680 Speaker 1: we're like a creative libera. Yes, exactly who she was. 256 00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 1: I mean, I was thinking of Michelangelo, right, and Leonardo 257 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:34,400 Speaker 1: da Vinci, one of them. I was thinking Abold, I 258 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:38,920 Speaker 1: don't know what it was, or Michelangelo or both. We'll 259 00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 1: take both. So can we ask you a question about 260 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:44,720 Speaker 1: your relationship that I think would apply both to gay 261 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:47,960 Speaker 1: couples and straight couples. I read and you can correct 262 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:50,720 Speaker 1: if this is wrong, that you basically haven't had any 263 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:54,200 Speaker 1: commitment issues, that you bought a house together, or you 264 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:57,760 Speaker 1: rent an apartment together eighteen months in. How did you 265 00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:00,760 Speaker 1: two just clap eyes on each other and know this 266 00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:03,920 Speaker 1: is it and make it work. All these years we 267 00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:09,600 Speaker 1: just had really low expectations. I was like, Oh, he'll do. 268 00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 1: Actually it's beautiful. Yeah, this is very New York. So 269 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:21,520 Speaker 1: Sliman had just bought this fabulous apartment when I first 270 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:23,720 Speaker 1: met him, and it was an apartment that was kind 271 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:25,600 Speaker 1: of legendary and I had always noticed it, and when 272 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:27,720 Speaker 1: I found out he bought it, I was like, Oh, 273 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:30,560 Speaker 1: you'll do, and that it was really about the nice 274 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:34,400 Speaker 1: about the apartment story for your vows when you got married, 275 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 1: because it's just so heartwarming. Like many New Yorkers, it 276 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 1: was real estate play. You know. I love the fact 277 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:45,680 Speaker 1: that you both have created this life based on your creativity. 278 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 1: And I'm fascinated by how people choose a career or 279 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:54,359 Speaker 1: are lucky enough to turn their passion into their profession. 280 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:58,080 Speaker 1: Every morning I get up and I thank the Lord 281 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:01,760 Speaker 1: that I was able to have a job where I 282 00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:05,080 Speaker 1: was able to do stuff that I found creatively stimulating. 283 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:09,800 Speaker 1: And that and even my corporate years of Barney's, it 284 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:13,000 Speaker 1: was always stimulating. It was always creative I was involved 285 00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 1: in so much stuff, and I never took that for 286 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:19,000 Speaker 1: granted because the town I grew up in it was 287 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 1: like the local factories, that's where you worked. And I 288 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:23,760 Speaker 1: did do that in the summers, and so I saw 289 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:26,000 Speaker 1: what that was like. So to have a job where 290 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:30,200 Speaker 1: you're consumed with passion, even if it's just making paper 291 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:33,120 Speaker 1: mache props or a window, but you're having fun, You're 292 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:36,000 Speaker 1: like you care about it, like that is such a gift. 293 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 1: You have a vision for what you're doing. How did 294 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:41,640 Speaker 1: you how did you tap into that? How did you 295 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:47,160 Speaker 1: discover what would give you joy? It was quite specific. Actually, 296 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 1: I moved to London after college and I worked in 297 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:54,000 Speaker 1: in stores. You know, that's what everybody did back then. 298 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:55,720 Speaker 1: If they weren't shut what to do? They got a 299 00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:59,400 Speaker 1: job in a store, so selling fashion when they had stores, 300 00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:06,120 Speaker 1: right remember that number store. And I used to watch 301 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:08,320 Speaker 1: the window display people and I thought, well, they're busy 302 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:11,800 Speaker 1: all day. Their work day isn't contingent on customers coming in. 303 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:14,480 Speaker 1: So I thought I could do that. Doesn't seem that complicated. 304 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:20,600 Speaker 1: So then I got a job at Aquascutum, great British 305 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:26,440 Speaker 1: outerwear and Umbrella Frumpy but very is what the queen traditional, 306 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:28,920 Speaker 1: what the queen was when she's out with the corgis, 307 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:32,440 Speaker 1: had the aquascutum. So it was great because the windows 308 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:35,600 Speaker 1: were very elaborate, and I was a shlap you know. 309 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:39,480 Speaker 1: I was carrying ladders, paint, carrying the mannequins, stuff like that. 310 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:43,280 Speaker 1: And I said in London in the nine exactly. And 311 00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:47,320 Speaker 1: then for extra cash I used to go into smaller 312 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:50,320 Speaker 1: boutiques and say, oh, who does your window. I'm a 313 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 1: window dresser. I'll give me five quid and I'll do 314 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:54,800 Speaker 1: your window once a month. So I had a lot 315 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 1: of these freelance jobs, and one of them was quite noteworthy. 316 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:02,320 Speaker 1: It was a store on Savile Row and it was 317 00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 1: the first trendy tailor on Savile Row called Tommy Nutter 318 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:10,000 Speaker 1: and Tommy Nutter and you t t e R. He 319 00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:12,720 Speaker 1: was this legendary guy who's the first one to take 320 00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:16,919 Speaker 1: those old Savile Row idea and make it trendy. So 321 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:20,840 Speaker 1: he made Mick Jagger's wedding suit when Mick married Bianca 322 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:23,760 Speaker 1: and he's wearing the white. He made clothes for Elton 323 00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:28,119 Speaker 1: John and the people from that era. So they wanted fun, 324 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:31,639 Speaker 1: crazy windows. So that is when I started to do 325 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:33,760 Speaker 1: things where I put like a coffin in the window 326 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:36,679 Speaker 1: with a mannequin in it, or like, you know, I 327 00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:39,880 Speaker 1: found all these little stuffed rats and made little tuxedos 328 00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:43,800 Speaker 1: for them. They wanted things that were edgy and sort 329 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:46,600 Speaker 1: of a little more punk rock. And that's when I 330 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:50,680 Speaker 1: tapped into like, oh, like, if you do something unconventional, 331 00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:54,080 Speaker 1: you'll get attention. People are like it, you get more work. 332 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:57,920 Speaker 1: And and one day this guy is incredible guy called 333 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:00,879 Speaker 1: Tommy Purse. He came in and he said, oh, you 334 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:03,399 Speaker 1: should come work for me in l A. So I 335 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:05,440 Speaker 1: was twenty five, and I just got on a plane 336 00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:07,200 Speaker 1: and went to live in l A. When I was five. 337 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:09,520 Speaker 1: And what did you do for Tommy Persum? I did 338 00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:12,480 Speaker 1: dressed his windows at his store, which was then it 339 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:16,639 Speaker 1: was called Maxfield. Still that which is an iconic l 340 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:20,879 Speaker 1: as from l A. Yeah, well you may not remember 341 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:22,879 Speaker 1: what it used to be next to the Troubador. I 342 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:25,439 Speaker 1: do remember that. And I did those windows with these 343 00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:29,159 Speaker 1: vintage mannequins that Tommy collected. That was where I had 344 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:34,399 Speaker 1: my swinging, degenerate, crazy twenties, was mostly in l A. 345 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:38,320 Speaker 1: Do you believe that you were in some ways responsible 346 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:42,679 Speaker 1: for changing or transforming what was considered sort of window 347 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:45,679 Speaker 1: dressing into a real art form. Well, there was a 348 00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:49,879 Speaker 1: group of people who were doing that. Um, some of 349 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:54,120 Speaker 1: them are still around, like Linda Fargo from Bogdors, Candy 350 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:57,520 Speaker 1: Pratt's Price from Vogue used to do these crazy punk 351 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:00,600 Speaker 1: rock windows at Bloomingdals. There was. It was a movement 352 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 1: of because windows are great, because the democratic everyone sees them. 353 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:08,240 Speaker 1: You can really communicate to a lot of people. So 354 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:12,240 Speaker 1: I was one of several people, and unfortunately many of 355 00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:15,000 Speaker 1: the great ones died of AIDS. I mean I could 356 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:19,399 Speaker 1: sit here listing them all and it's Colin Birch, Bob Benzio. 357 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:22,920 Speaker 1: There was a ton of great people who in the 358 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:26,320 Speaker 1: early eighties they died of AIDS. So Linda and I 359 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:29,800 Speaker 1: often say God, for all those people I'd stuck around, 360 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:32,439 Speaker 1: Maybe would we have gotten our moment? Would we have? 361 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 1: Because there was so many talented people. It's so interesting 362 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:39,240 Speaker 1: too to me because here's this art form that's so ephemeral, 363 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:43,359 Speaker 1: but also, as you said, so democratic, a way to 364 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:47,480 Speaker 1: gather community. I love looking at people looking at windows. 365 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:50,800 Speaker 1: The sad thing is windows have kind of become less 366 00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:52,920 Speaker 1: relevant than they used to be like when I first 367 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:55,960 Speaker 1: moved to New York and Simon's windows were so legendary. 368 00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:58,359 Speaker 1: There will be like people on throned on the streets 369 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:01,639 Speaker 1: waiting for the reveal. That was, of course, before cell phones. 370 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:05,679 Speaker 1: Now that kind of democracy and shared experience of windows 371 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:12,240 Speaker 1: seems to be disappearing. Really, Yeah, people phones taking the 372 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:13,919 Speaker 1: picture of the window so they can share it on 373 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 1: social media. Not actually, although I still do see people 374 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:23,000 Speaker 1: around the holidays, holiday around you know, blooming Dale's and 375 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:27,200 Speaker 1: Sacks and of course Barney's. And then from the window 376 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:29,400 Speaker 1: dressing and then Jonathan, We're going to get to your 377 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:31,639 Speaker 1: sort of career in a second, But from the window 378 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:35,080 Speaker 1: dressing you went. It allowed you to branch out in 379 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:39,920 Speaker 1: incredible ways. Well, I when I did my book, Pizza Kaplan, 380 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:42,240 Speaker 1: who was the editor of The New York Observer, he 381 00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 1: said to me, oh, you should Your book is funny. 382 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:47,560 Speaker 1: You should come right a column for us. So during 383 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:49,359 Speaker 1: the day I was working at Barney's, then I go 384 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:51,439 Speaker 1: home and bang out this weekly column for the New 385 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:54,400 Speaker 1: York Observer. And Pizza Kaplan was just one of those 386 00:21:54,480 --> 00:22:02,520 Speaker 1: very special people in the newspaper. Yes, fire him, Yeah, 387 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:05,000 Speaker 1: I'm not quite sure how that played out, but Jared 388 00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:08,720 Speaker 1: Kushner ended up buying The Observer. Yes, and did you 389 00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:12,440 Speaker 1: work at all under Jared Kushner? Um? Yeah, under isn't 390 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:16,560 Speaker 1: the preposition because you know, you know the paper. So 391 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:19,240 Speaker 1: I was one of many people just banging out their 392 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:22,680 Speaker 1: column and sending it in and um, yeah, we overlapped there. 393 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 1: But you know I would see him at the Christmas party. 394 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:28,480 Speaker 1: You I know, Jonathan encouraged Simon to write that column 395 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:32,440 Speaker 1: because you said you've got to do this. I hate 396 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:36,800 Speaker 1: to give Simon compliments and clear r L. I typically 397 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:40,080 Speaker 1: do not. However, I will keep it real. In this thing, 398 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:46,160 Speaker 1: Simon is a bizarre Polly math who is visually extraordinarily 399 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:49,680 Speaker 1: gifted but can write like no one else. And it's 400 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:52,200 Speaker 1: like I think it might be an English thing where 401 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:56,160 Speaker 1: English there are other english people who are like prominent 402 00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:58,160 Speaker 1: in one field, who suddenly can pick up a pen 403 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:01,600 Speaker 1: and really turn a rays, like believe it or not, 404 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:04,320 Speaker 1: Joan Collins, like, I've read some of her writing and 405 00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:07,320 Speaker 1: it's just very sharp and quick. And Simon's like one 406 00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:10,320 Speaker 1: of those English people who just manages to capture his 407 00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:13,520 Speaker 1: cheeky voice in writing, and it can I make a 408 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:17,200 Speaker 1: sweeping generalization about the English. I think that you all 409 00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:21,680 Speaker 1: value writing and talking and language and diction a lot 410 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 1: more than Americans do. I think really over enunciating when 411 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:30,320 Speaker 1: you're saying this, Brian, sorry. I think you're sort of 412 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:33,040 Speaker 1: informally trained in it based on the way you are 413 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:37,360 Speaker 1: educated and talked to your peers, and therefore most British 414 00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:41,480 Speaker 1: people I know are really good talkers and writers. My 415 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 1: theory is that America is an incredibly playful culture. Like 416 00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:47,840 Speaker 1: the first thing you see when I saw when I 417 00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:50,639 Speaker 1: moved to l A was like people stretching at a 418 00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:54,360 Speaker 1: bus stop or bouncing a bowl, like like in pink tights. 419 00:23:54,480 --> 00:24:01,040 Speaker 1: You know, like very playful culture. But when people get 420 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:04,720 Speaker 1: into print, they get very formal, like I'm writing an 421 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:07,960 Speaker 1: essay now on blah blah blah. Whereas England is an 422 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:13,200 Speaker 1: incredibly formal culture historically structurally, and when they get into 423 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:15,960 Speaker 1: print they just don't care. Like that's when you're your 424 00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:19,280 Speaker 1: only obligation is to be entertaining, so like going to 425 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:22,080 Speaker 1: the pub, your only obligation is to make people laugh 426 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:24,800 Speaker 1: and tell funny stories. So there's like a lot of 427 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:30,080 Speaker 1: cultural stuff that I think makes English people that have 428 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:34,320 Speaker 1: that sort of witty, loose panash with words that you know, 429 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:38,200 Speaker 1: someone with the education to back it up though generally right, Yeah, 430 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:40,800 Speaker 1: like a Tina Brown or not even like it's I 431 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:43,520 Speaker 1: think often you know the cab drivers who are Cockney 432 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:46,600 Speaker 1: East London people have the best gift of gab. But 433 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:49,440 Speaker 1: on the English tip, back to our relationship for one, 434 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:51,919 Speaker 1: I think one of the reasons we ended up together 435 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:55,320 Speaker 1: is that English people really like to take the piss 436 00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:58,080 Speaker 1: out of each other. Like they tease each other ruthlessly 437 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:01,040 Speaker 1: and relentlessly as a sign of affection. And that's how 438 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:04,520 Speaker 1: I've always rolled. But Americans don't typically do that. I 439 00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:08,080 Speaker 1: think Americans don't. You think people in amermor delicate. Yeah, 440 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:11,280 Speaker 1: like we don't make fun of each other ruthlessly and immediately, 441 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:17,960 Speaker 1: oh I do. Good. Time for us to take a 442 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:20,360 Speaker 1: quick break. When we come back, we're going to help 443 00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:24,600 Speaker 1: Simon and Jonathan remember when their wedding anniversary is. That's 444 00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:33,280 Speaker 1: right after this and now back to our conversation with 445 00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:38,520 Speaker 1: Simon Doonan and Jonathan Adler. Jonathan, you've built an extraordinary 446 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:42,560 Speaker 1: career out of your passion as well. You decided to 447 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:46,080 Speaker 1: become a potter at twenty seven, you left your job? 448 00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:48,080 Speaker 1: What were you doing and why did you decide to 449 00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:52,639 Speaker 1: leave it? Well, um so, I had always wanted to 450 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:54,639 Speaker 1: be a Potter from the second I touched Clay as 451 00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:58,920 Speaker 1: a kid, I like had a instant love affair with Clay. 452 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:00,960 Speaker 1: By the way, do you guys ever reenact that scene 453 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:04,720 Speaker 1: from Ghost Oh Nightly? I'm sure in the beginning we 454 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:10,600 Speaker 1: used to be like, let's do it happens less and 455 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:20,360 Speaker 1: less frequently. I'm sorry to say, we should music right now? 456 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:23,840 Speaker 1: We always have that in the Yeah O is getting 457 00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:27,160 Speaker 1: a bit scratchy and it's on repeat. Um so, yeah. 458 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:28,879 Speaker 1: I always wanted to be a Potter and I always 459 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 1: wanted to be a jap like I needed to be Yes, 460 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:35,800 Speaker 1: but that seemed absolutely impossible. So I tried to uh 461 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:40,879 Speaker 1: work in the movie business after college, and I studied 462 00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:44,200 Speaker 1: semiotics and art history, so I had not I didn't 463 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:47,560 Speaker 1: have a practical bone in my body. I was completely hairy, 464 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:51,720 Speaker 1: fairy and impractical, and that really showed itself in the workplace, 465 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:54,320 Speaker 1: where I got fired from about five jobs in a 466 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:57,879 Speaker 1: row real news. For like, I slept with everybody in 467 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:00,919 Speaker 1: the office, and I took personal halls and finally I 468 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:02,720 Speaker 1: was sleeping with my boss and then you know, I 469 00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:05,879 Speaker 1: broke up with him and he fired me, and I 470 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:08,560 Speaker 1: was unemployed for like a year, and I couldn't find 471 00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:11,880 Speaker 1: a job, and I started teaching night classes at a 472 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:15,040 Speaker 1: pottery studio in Hell's Kitchen, just while I was kind 473 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:18,680 Speaker 1: of trying to get a job and no jobs were 474 00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:20,920 Speaker 1: coming my way. And my parents finally were like, your 475 00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:23,600 Speaker 1: twenty seven, you like went to an ivy league college, 476 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:26,760 Speaker 1: and you're not making a dime like sell a pot, 477 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:33,679 Speaker 1: And so I am, I would seemed quite I just 478 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 1: had a bunch of pots, too many pots and unsold, 479 00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:39,520 Speaker 1: and so I um ended up getting in touch with 480 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:42,520 Speaker 1: the buyer, Barneys, and I got an order, and uh, 481 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:45,719 Speaker 1: I thought, wow, but this was after or before you 482 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:55,320 Speaker 1: guys got together, before we got together, this say I'm sorry. 483 00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:58,840 Speaker 1: Um yeah, So I got this order and I started 484 00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:01,119 Speaker 1: to like make pots, and I still just thought of 485 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:04,600 Speaker 1: myself as unemployed. But I got more orders, and then 486 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:08,760 Speaker 1: I kind of gradually, very gradually figured it out and 487 00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:11,600 Speaker 1: realized that I had gone from kind of being really 488 00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:16,040 Speaker 1: unemployable to being highly self employed. And the end of 489 00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:19,800 Speaker 1: this pretty extraordinary entrepreneur you saw that your pots were 490 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:22,920 Speaker 1: popular in Barney's and then you opened up your first 491 00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:26,080 Speaker 1: retail store five years later. Now there are how many 492 00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:30,719 Speaker 1: stores in al Jathan about stores across the country, and 493 00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 1: too in London. You know a lot of artists. I 494 00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:37,400 Speaker 1: think it's probably an unfair generalization, but they don't necessarily 495 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:39,480 Speaker 1: have a brain for business, as they would say in 496 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:43,440 Speaker 1: Working Girl. But you actually did. Um, how did you 497 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:47,840 Speaker 1: translate your artistic skills into business skills? I had maybe 498 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:51,120 Speaker 1: the worst mind for business of anyone in the history 499 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:54,239 Speaker 1: of our planet, and Simon can attest to that. I 500 00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:57,200 Speaker 1: was like very ill equipped. I didn't know what an 501 00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:00,640 Speaker 1: invoice was. I was like completely incompay. I just love 502 00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:03,560 Speaker 1: to make stuff, and like we didn't go into this 503 00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:06,360 Speaker 1: with any sort of business plan or any ideas at all. 504 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:09,040 Speaker 1: And I think that that's not really how people today 505 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:12,200 Speaker 1: typically approach their careers, like they all, you know, kind 506 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:14,400 Speaker 1: of want to be a brand from day one. I 507 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:17,600 Speaker 1: think both Slime and I kind of just figured it out. 508 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:23,280 Speaker 1: And I think that's something that's one of the more 509 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:29,320 Speaker 1: um safe for work kind of appellations. Um. Yeah, so 510 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:31,280 Speaker 1: I just figured it out, as did Simon. I think 511 00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:33,880 Speaker 1: we both also, like Simon and I both work in 512 00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:37,520 Speaker 1: very reviled professions like Simon's a window dresser and I'm 513 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:41,320 Speaker 1: a potter. They're not exactly the most season careers. I 514 00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 1: have to say, I have I beg to differ. I mean, 515 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:47,880 Speaker 1: I would see you both as being a very tony professions. 516 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:51,560 Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's probably how they work now. 517 00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:54,360 Speaker 1: But at the time, I mean, before you both hit 518 00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:56,760 Speaker 1: it big, the notion that you would have these great, 519 00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:00,800 Speaker 1: successful careers in those two professions, I mean, boy doubtful, 520 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:05,720 Speaker 1: because I thought, Um, one of Johnny's best friends is 521 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:09,960 Speaker 1: Liz Lang maternity. I used to wear her maternity clothes 522 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:12,400 Speaker 1: on the Today Show. I would love it, and we, 523 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:14,880 Speaker 1: the three of us in the nineties, we used to 524 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:17,800 Speaker 1: talk about how hilarious it was that she was in 525 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:20,840 Speaker 1: maternity where he was a partner. I was a window dresser, 526 00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:23,440 Speaker 1: because these were not you know, that was like being 527 00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:26,080 Speaker 1: a fluffer in a strip club or something like that. 528 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:30,480 Speaker 1: It was like the world's best fluffer. Yeah, it was. 529 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:34,240 Speaker 1: It was sort of almost like I'll give you an example, 530 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:38,120 Speaker 1: like say, helicopter parents on the Upper East Side, the 531 00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:41,760 Speaker 1: spending a fortune on the kellicoptering their kid and da 532 00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:44,280 Speaker 1: da da da and the kid comes home and says, 533 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:46,840 Speaker 1: I want to be a window dresser. The parents probably 534 00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:50,440 Speaker 1: going to crisis meetings with the counselors. Like, because it 535 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:53,200 Speaker 1: is one of those sort of joke professions. I think 536 00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:59,120 Speaker 1: it predates this whole preoccupation with quote unquote lifestyle brands, right, 537 00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:04,640 Speaker 1: I mean, this whole burgeoning industry, whether it's through Instagram 538 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:10,040 Speaker 1: or Pinterest. This whole thing exploded kind of exactly the 539 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:12,680 Speaker 1: right time for both of you in a way. I mean, 540 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 1: I feel like Simon more fashion and that was a constant, 541 00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:20,360 Speaker 1: but for you, Jonathan, it's become this whole new fielding. 542 00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:23,480 Speaker 1: We both saw sort of white space. So here's some 543 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:28,120 Speaker 1: an arena which isn't oversubscribed to which people tend to 544 00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:30,920 Speaker 1: steer a bit clear of because it has all these 545 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:35,720 Speaker 1: sort of um day class A associations. So and Liz 546 00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:37,920 Speaker 1: has talked that way. She was the first person to 547 00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:42,160 Speaker 1: go into maternity, you know, like Carl lager Felt wasn't 548 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:46,040 Speaker 1: doing a maternity line like maternity scene as being I don't, well, 549 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:48,320 Speaker 1: it's not like it was like p on the pod 550 00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:51,200 Speaker 1: that's where shopped. And then Liz Lang came along and 551 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:53,880 Speaker 1: I was like allelujah. Right Liz. It was like she 552 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 1: revolutionized this kind of dusty thing and made it like 553 00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:01,640 Speaker 1: sexy and great and chic. She she she can. She 554 00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:03,880 Speaker 1: just had this incredible vision. I think she's still a 555 00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:06,959 Speaker 1: white space, like, no one's doing that if you're if 556 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:08,760 Speaker 1: you're like young and trying to figure out. I think 557 00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:11,640 Speaker 1: that's always a good way to think about it, Like 558 00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:16,120 Speaker 1: what is nobody doing? That's always what I what I 559 00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:19,160 Speaker 1: recommend to bis Stone when I wrote this put together 560 00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:22,880 Speaker 1: this book of advice. He said, find a need and 561 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:26,080 Speaker 1: fill it. I mean it's almost that simple, like where 562 00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:29,560 Speaker 1: is the white space? And how does that intersect with 563 00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:33,400 Speaker 1: something that I love? Which is also incredibly important, right Jonathan, 564 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:36,800 Speaker 1: john Yea or Johnny. I think the funny thing is 565 00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:39,520 Speaker 1: that neither of us, like we were both so bumbling 566 00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:42,120 Speaker 1: and unstrategic that we don't think any of us knew 567 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:44,800 Speaker 1: the word white space until like a week ago. You know, 568 00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:49,320 Speaker 1: we kind of just wet for a long time. There 569 00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:52,600 Speaker 1: was no iteration or planning. I think we just both 570 00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:56,040 Speaker 1: happened to be very very passionate about a particular thing, 571 00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:59,520 Speaker 1: and somehow it all worked. And I think people now 572 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:02,240 Speaker 1: with this idea of personal branding, and everyone wanted to 573 00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:03,840 Speaker 1: be a brand, and I'm a brand, he's a brand. 574 00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:06,840 Speaker 1: They all think it's attainable, and people are all told 575 00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:09,080 Speaker 1: to like, follow your dream and it will work out, 576 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:13,680 Speaker 1: And the truth is it really won't. It just won't. 577 00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:17,000 Speaker 1: Like everybody who thinks they can follow their dream and 578 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:21,280 Speaker 1: it will work out is incorrect. Like inasmuch as mine 579 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:24,200 Speaker 1: has remind me not to hire you as a commencement 580 00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:26,880 Speaker 1: speed don't ever hire me. Actually think it's good advice 581 00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:28,960 Speaker 1: because most of the people who try to be brands 582 00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:33,600 Speaker 1: just based on nothing, I think fail. I think many 583 00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:36,760 Speaker 1: of the brands, with the notable exception of the Kardashians, 584 00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:41,400 Speaker 1: are actually you know, they're because they're doing something, accomplishing something, 585 00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:44,280 Speaker 1: filling a need. Yeah, but there's also for everyone who 586 00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:47,400 Speaker 1: breaks through and is accomplishing something, there's a million more 587 00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:50,880 Speaker 1: who are more talented who haven't broken through. So there's 588 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:55,360 Speaker 1: just such a huge element of luck and timing, timing, 589 00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:58,800 Speaker 1: and so really, you know, Andy Warhol said success is 590 00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:01,360 Speaker 1: a job in New York City, and I think that's 591 00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:04,920 Speaker 1: a more realistic approach to how people should think about 592 00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:10,719 Speaker 1: their lives. Like, not everyone, it's so rarely works out that. Um, 593 00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:15,279 Speaker 1: you know that you get the combination of talent, luck, timing, etcetera, etcetera. Well, 594 00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:17,120 Speaker 1: why do you think it worked for you? I have 595 00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:20,120 Speaker 1: no idea. I truly really have no idea. I think 596 00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:23,279 Speaker 1: I would say luck is probably the most important. But 597 00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:26,399 Speaker 1: you're not saying other people shouldn't try. No. I think 598 00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:29,919 Speaker 1: I think what I think Nathan saying is be realistic. 599 00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:32,200 Speaker 1: You know, follow your dreams and it all work out. 600 00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:37,359 Speaker 1: Sometimes you have to reassess your dreams. And I think 601 00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:40,400 Speaker 1: so many people today are driven by this desire to 602 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:43,640 Speaker 1: be famous. If you look at what people want, it's 603 00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:48,520 Speaker 1: less that they want fulfilling work that makes them feel gratified. 604 00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:51,960 Speaker 1: It's more they want to be a quote unquote brand 605 00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:56,080 Speaker 1: that makes them famous. Yes, thank you, that's totally true. 606 00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:58,319 Speaker 1: And I think I think, you know, if you can 607 00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:01,400 Speaker 1: get a job in a fee old that you're interested 608 00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:04,520 Speaker 1: and that you enjoy, yeah, then that's success. Like that's 609 00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:06,680 Speaker 1: hitting it out of the park. And I think that 610 00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:11,080 Speaker 1: people's expectations have gotten really twisted and unrealistic. On a 611 00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:14,400 Speaker 1: related note, Jonathan, you also said that high self esteem 612 00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:17,480 Speaker 1: is the enemy of creativity. Um, can you talk more 613 00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:19,799 Speaker 1: about that? I thought it was really interesting. I think 614 00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:26,120 Speaker 1: creativity is a very strange and challenging beast to to explain. 615 00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:30,400 Speaker 1: And Um Simon calls me Ariannakfka because he says that 616 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:33,319 Speaker 1: half of me is like kind of a glib, fun 617 00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:36,719 Speaker 1: like kicky pop songstress, like Ariana Grande, and that's the 618 00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:40,960 Speaker 1: sort of dreamy um side of me in which ideas 619 00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:44,320 Speaker 1: first occur, Like I might wake up one day and say, 620 00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:47,120 Speaker 1: I know, I want to make a gigantic loose sight 621 00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:50,120 Speaker 1: foot in pink looe sight um, And that's sort of 622 00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:52,959 Speaker 1: an Ariana Grande dreamy kind of world. But in order 623 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:56,080 Speaker 1: to take that idea and turn it into a real thing, 624 00:35:56,600 --> 00:36:00,560 Speaker 1: one has to be intensely like self critical and analytical 625 00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:04,279 Speaker 1: and have very low self esteem. And so you see 626 00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:07,839 Speaker 1: the first and perfectionistic. Yeah, you have to be very perfectionistist. 627 00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:10,759 Speaker 1: You need to perfectionistic, and you need to look at 628 00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:14,200 Speaker 1: the first sample and say that sucks, like me, I'm 629 00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:17,520 Speaker 1: the worst, I'm the worst, this is the worst why, 630 00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:19,920 Speaker 1: And then you need to sort of torture it into 631 00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:22,120 Speaker 1: its best self. So I think I think to be 632 00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:26,080 Speaker 1: creatively successful you need to have a a strange combination 633 00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:29,719 Speaker 1: of dreamy, high self esteem to come up with an 634 00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:35,120 Speaker 1: idea and extremely analytical, intense low self esteem to torture 635 00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:36,960 Speaker 1: the idea. Yeah, to execute it and make it as 636 00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:39,000 Speaker 1: good as it can be. Does your polo shirts say 637 00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:41,520 Speaker 1: jap on it? By the way, it does? That's my monogram. 638 00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:46,320 Speaker 1: I wi should this reverse to Jewish American princess generally 639 00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:50,960 Speaker 1: not the racist description of Japanese people? To be clear, yes, no, 640 00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:54,759 Speaker 1: but I happen to have a monogram that is jap 641 00:36:55,280 --> 00:37:00,040 Speaker 1: Well wait, Jonathan Paul and you're Jonathan Paul Adler, I 642 00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:03,480 Speaker 1: get it. Um, I'm curious. Do you make everything that 643 00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:05,920 Speaker 1: you saw in the store? Do you design everything you 644 00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:08,600 Speaker 1: sell in the store? Yeah? Pretty? I mean there are 645 00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:10,880 Speaker 1: a couple exceptions, like we saw a couple of different 646 00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:14,000 Speaker 1: artists work and stuff, but yeah, I work in every 647 00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:21,480 Speaker 1: medium and kind of furniture, everything, like su everything. I 648 00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:26,040 Speaker 1: really like the vase with the breasts all over it. Yeah, 649 00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:31,440 Speaker 1: that's um that is from really really like it. Yeah 650 00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:36,279 Speaker 1: I don't. I don't. I know for Christmas. A lot 651 00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:39,040 Speaker 1: of my friends have it, and they're different, but I 652 00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:41,479 Speaker 1: like the one that has sort of the breasts all 653 00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:44,360 Speaker 1: over it. It's too bad you are missing Katie's gesture 654 00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:47,759 Speaker 1: right now, she's mimicking breasts. You don't, actually, well, she's 655 00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:52,719 Speaker 1: mimicking grabbing breasts. Yeah, would be. That's what I kind 656 00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:55,480 Speaker 1: of like. By the way, before we wrap, we should 657 00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:58,600 Speaker 1: talk about the new challenge you've taken on Simon. You're 658 00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:01,680 Speaker 1: a judge on a reality show because of course why not? 659 00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:05,240 Speaker 1: And it's called Making It And it's hosted by Amy 660 00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:08,320 Speaker 1: Poehler and Nick Offerman, who are two hilarious people, and 661 00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:10,839 Speaker 1: I hope they're hilarious with each other too. Although they're 662 00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:13,400 Speaker 1: not a couple. No, they're not a couple. Yeah are 663 00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:18,600 Speaker 1: they know? Because Nick? But I bet they're a hilarious couple. Anyway, 664 00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:22,480 Speaker 1: can you explain how the show works? Um? Yeah, it's 665 00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:28,120 Speaker 1: a crafting competition show or crafting competition show. I am 666 00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:31,359 Speaker 1: one of two judges. I'm an expert judge. The other 667 00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:35,680 Speaker 1: judges Dana Issam Johnson from Etsy and Nick and Amy 668 00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:40,440 Speaker 1: are the hosts. And you know, crafts is something that 669 00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:43,919 Speaker 1: Amy polar is passionate about, as is Nick, even though 670 00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:46,920 Speaker 1: she doesn't do them herself. She feels that there are 671 00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:49,279 Speaker 1: the solution to all our problems. We all need to 672 00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:53,839 Speaker 1: put down our devices and start decopaging and macromyng and 673 00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:56,640 Speaker 1: it is a national movement, the crafting movement. I think 674 00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:59,319 Speaker 1: that's why the show is such a big hit. It's 675 00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:03,520 Speaker 1: also positive. I mean the first day on the set 676 00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:07,880 Speaker 1: she said, I don't want any fake conflict, any bitchiness, 677 00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:09,879 Speaker 1: any blah blah blah, and I said, we'll see you later. 678 00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:14,239 Speaker 1: But no, they from the get go it was all 679 00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:17,319 Speaker 1: going to be about positivity and as you say, I 680 00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:20,600 Speaker 1: think people need that right now, and that's one of 681 00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:22,960 Speaker 1: the reasons it's a big hit. So it was so 682 00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:24,839 Speaker 1: fun to do though, because for me it's like being 683 00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:30,000 Speaker 1: back in the display studio, chicken wire props, decoupage mod 684 00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:34,640 Speaker 1: page making stuff. Yeah, it was a great experience, something unexpected. 685 00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:38,279 Speaker 1: So tell me about decorating the White House, Simon was 686 00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:41,759 Speaker 1: that the thrill of a lifetime. Decorating the White House 687 00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:45,280 Speaker 1: was the thrill of a lifetime. I had just become 688 00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:49,240 Speaker 1: a citizen and voted for Barack Obama, and I thought, 689 00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:54,200 Speaker 1: we a'm here, I'm American. And then Desiree Rogers, who 690 00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:56,960 Speaker 1: was the social secretary, she called me and said, we 691 00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:00,480 Speaker 1: want help with the holiday decors. And that was at 692 00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:02,799 Speaker 1: the beginning of the year, and I spent that year 693 00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:05,560 Speaker 1: going back and forward, and I worked with this wonderful 694 00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:09,759 Speaker 1: florist called Kimberly Merlin. So it was very much you know, 695 00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:13,640 Speaker 1: I was very involved in it, and um, but there 696 00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:15,279 Speaker 1: was a group of us working on it and a 697 00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:19,600 Speaker 1: ton of volunteers. It actually really looked great. I mean, 698 00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:22,719 Speaker 1: I don't think it's ever looked better, of course, and 699 00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:28,960 Speaker 1: we incorporated recycling elements and Mrs Obama, which I had 700 00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:31,520 Speaker 1: two meetings with her, and it was she was just 701 00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:36,080 Speaker 1: so lovely and so kind to everybody, and and she 702 00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:38,880 Speaker 1: threw a little party for all the volunteers after the 703 00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:44,560 Speaker 1: installation was complete, and I just remember her extemporaneous speech 704 00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:47,520 Speaker 1: was just so perfect, and uh yeah, it was a 705 00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:50,839 Speaker 1: great experience. That's so fun. I mean, how are you 706 00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:54,600 Speaker 1: all dealing with the current political climate. I can't help 707 00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:57,960 Speaker 1: but listen to that story and wonder what it would 708 00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:01,880 Speaker 1: be like to decorate the current White House. Um, what 709 00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:05,400 Speaker 1: would you do if you were decorating the current White House? Simon? Um, 710 00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:10,319 Speaker 1: Oh my god, the mind reels. Fortunately, I haven't would 711 00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:13,200 Speaker 1: you take that job if you were called? Um? I 712 00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:17,920 Speaker 1: don't think so, you know, I think he should just 713 00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:20,439 Speaker 1: do what he does at Trump Tower, that gaudy kind 714 00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:24,239 Speaker 1: of um Roman casino Caesar's Palace look that they have 715 00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:28,240 Speaker 1: going on. Do that like, um no, I am now 716 00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:32,040 Speaker 1: I turned to sort of I'm so busy with these 717 00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:35,960 Speaker 1: book projects. I don't obsess about the political world. I 718 00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:39,279 Speaker 1: voted for Hillary Clinton and I was disappointed. But you know, 719 00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:43,240 Speaker 1: time when you're in retail, time goes by really quickly. 720 00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:46,560 Speaker 1: You know, our holiday campaigns we used to plan two 721 00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:51,080 Speaker 1: years out, you know, so I'm very used to thinking ahead, 722 00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:54,000 Speaker 1: ahead ahead, and thinking of when there'll be a different 723 00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:56,719 Speaker 1: a new person in there, you know, you know, with 724 00:41:56,840 --> 00:42:00,320 Speaker 1: the coverage is so relentless, and if you're in our business, 725 00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:05,200 Speaker 1: it's it's hard not to feel like you're absolutely drowning 726 00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:11,279 Speaker 1: in this constant slew of drama, negativity and tumult. So 727 00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:14,480 Speaker 1: it's inescapable, I think for people like us. But what 728 00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:19,920 Speaker 1: about you, Jonathan? I travel a lot for work, like 729 00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:23,840 Speaker 1: I am in Asia quite often. I've traveled all around 730 00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:27,400 Speaker 1: the world, the Middle East, South, America, and whenever I 731 00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:30,280 Speaker 1: come back to America, I am always like, Wow, America 732 00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:33,600 Speaker 1: is pretty great. Um this sounds you know, Grant, But 733 00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:37,200 Speaker 1: I'm lucky to have sort of a global perspective, and 734 00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:41,760 Speaker 1: you know, I appreciate that word democracy. I think that 735 00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:44,760 Speaker 1: whenever I come back to America, I feel really happy 736 00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:48,439 Speaker 1: to be here. I'm a huge America lover, and I think, 737 00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:52,440 Speaker 1: you know, it's it's a fascinating time to be alive. 738 00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:55,960 Speaker 1: But I'm a busy guy. I don't think the political 739 00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:59,880 Speaker 1: situation has made me mad one way or another. I 740 00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:02,799 Speaker 1: find it interesting, but I'm always happy to be here. 741 00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:05,719 Speaker 1: I can hear people listening to this though, and wondering, 742 00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:11,680 Speaker 1: as two gay men, are you outraged by sort of 743 00:43:11,719 --> 00:43:15,760 Speaker 1: what you see is perhaps a lack of tolerance for 744 00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:20,800 Speaker 1: diversity and a lack of openness for you know, the 745 00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:25,080 Speaker 1: decision tender people right, well right, or you know sort 746 00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:29,560 Speaker 1: of other rising In general, I think that, um, you know, 747 00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:32,480 Speaker 1: one should always kind of keep one's eye on that 748 00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:37,480 Speaker 1: situation and strive for greater rights and parity. But again, 749 00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:41,920 Speaker 1: I always think about the journey from my childhood, when 750 00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:45,720 Speaker 1: I lived in rural America being gay was an impossibility, 751 00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:48,680 Speaker 1: and think about how luck I am to be alive today, 752 00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:51,640 Speaker 1: and and again when I travel the world in places 753 00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:54,680 Speaker 1: where I've been to places where it's illegal to be gay. 754 00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:57,680 Speaker 1: It's always a good reminder to me how lucky, you know, 755 00:43:57,719 --> 00:44:00,960 Speaker 1: think are things perfect here? Of course, oh my god, 756 00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:04,160 Speaker 1: things are not perfect, But I'm awfully glad to be 757 00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:06,160 Speaker 1: here versus some other places. I do think that's a 758 00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:09,759 Speaker 1: healthy reminder than in the grand sweep of history, we 759 00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:12,400 Speaker 1: are so much better off than we were even twenty 760 00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:14,719 Speaker 1: or thirty years. Oh my god. And people kind of 761 00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:17,160 Speaker 1: take that for granted, and it's easy to lose sight 762 00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:19,799 Speaker 1: of that in the day to day, I think. Yeah, 763 00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:22,520 Speaker 1: But in fairness, I think people are worried about turning 764 00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:25,520 Speaker 1: back the clock and some of the rights and and 765 00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:28,840 Speaker 1: oh my god, you know, the progress that's been made 766 00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:31,400 Speaker 1: is going to be reversed, and they want to stay 767 00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:34,879 Speaker 1: ever vigilant on that. And so I appreciate that point 768 00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:37,400 Speaker 1: of We went through that. You know, we got married 769 00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:40,600 Speaker 1: in that window when it was legal in two thousand four. Yeah, 770 00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:43,600 Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden Prop eight was upheld 771 00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:46,480 Speaker 1: by a referendum and we were unmarried, weren't married again. 772 00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:50,000 Speaker 1: So you know, to go through that, you have to like, Okay, 773 00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:53,400 Speaker 1: tomorrow is another day, Scarlett O'Hara, You know, pull the 774 00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:56,160 Speaker 1: car out of the dirt. You keep going because and 775 00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:59,840 Speaker 1: then in typical American way, it did eventually get so 776 00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:02,839 Speaker 1: want it out and d wins that came along, and 777 00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:05,479 Speaker 1: then it was when we should provide maybe a little 778 00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:07,520 Speaker 1: bit more context for people weren't in that. In two 779 00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:11,160 Speaker 1: thousand four, in San Francisco, gay marriage was legalized. This 780 00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:14,000 Speaker 1: became a huge national issue. It was an issue in 781 00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:17,240 Speaker 1: the presidential campaign that year the George W. Bush used 782 00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:22,360 Speaker 1: successfully to get reelected. The voters of California. Progressive liberal 783 00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:25,319 Speaker 1: California voted to band game marriage in two thousand eight, 784 00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:29,680 Speaker 1: invalidating your relationship, and then seven years after that, the 785 00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:34,000 Speaker 1: Supreme Court legalized gay marriage nationally. So that's quite a 786 00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:38,839 Speaker 1: thank you for that. Her story, that was so good, 787 00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:41,960 Speaker 1: But that's quite a quite a journey and maybe hopefully 788 00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:46,080 Speaker 1: a metaphor for progress at large. Weirdly, for us, it 789 00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:48,640 Speaker 1: wasn't an emotional journey because I think we've both been 790 00:45:48,719 --> 00:45:54,800 Speaker 1: through I remember the legalization of homosexuality, the Wolfenden Report, 791 00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:57,080 Speaker 1: blah blah blah. So we've been through all these vice 792 00:45:57,160 --> 00:46:00,360 Speaker 1: institutes and you know, as a creative post and you 793 00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:04,480 Speaker 1: stay focused, you you know, you hope for the best, 794 00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:08,080 Speaker 1: and you know they are incredible people in the gay movement, 795 00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:11,440 Speaker 1: like the people at the HRC who doggedly start with 796 00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:13,960 Speaker 1: it and Needy Winsor as I mentioned before, and they 797 00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:16,680 Speaker 1: made it happen. They brought it back to the Supreme Court, 798 00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:22,160 Speaker 1: which you could probably say a lot better than I 799 00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:27,359 Speaker 1: interviewed James Berghafell, who was the man really behind that 800 00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:30,800 Speaker 1: Supreme Court decision. And it's so interesting to me how 801 00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:36,360 Speaker 1: changing the perspective and really referring to it as marriage 802 00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:41,600 Speaker 1: equality really actually had a lot to do with greater 803 00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:46,360 Speaker 1: acceptance of gay marriage. Yeah, seeing the journey of the 804 00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:49,239 Speaker 1: way other people perceived gay marriage has been so fascinating 805 00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:52,160 Speaker 1: because it took people within the gay world a while 806 00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:53,840 Speaker 1: to even come around to the idea of it. And 807 00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:57,000 Speaker 1: I think actually AIDS had a huge impact on the 808 00:46:57,080 --> 00:47:00,880 Speaker 1: gay in the gay marriage movement because during the AIDS epidemic, 809 00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:03,640 Speaker 1: during its height, a lot of people would die and 810 00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:07,319 Speaker 1: their long time companions would would lose everything they had 811 00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:10,560 Speaker 1: because they weren't legally entitled to it. And I think 812 00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:14,160 Speaker 1: a lot of people don't realize involved, right that happened 813 00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:16,520 Speaker 1: to her, Well, it happened to her, yes, a similar thing. 814 00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:22,440 Speaker 1: It wasn't aids, but yes, and I think and her partner, 815 00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:25,080 Speaker 1: her partner for whom she was like a longtime caregiver 816 00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:27,879 Speaker 1: of the partner I think had MS and eventually ended 817 00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:30,080 Speaker 1: up in a wheelchair, and it was like a very 818 00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:32,640 Speaker 1: sad and inspiring love story. And I think a lot 819 00:47:32,680 --> 00:47:38,000 Speaker 1: of straight people didn't really understand the financial implications of 820 00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:40,440 Speaker 1: the lack of game marriage. They didn't really understand that 821 00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:45,480 Speaker 1: if somebody's longtime partner died, they would owe taxes in 822 00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:47,759 Speaker 1: a way that straight couples wouldn't. And I think that 823 00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:50,880 Speaker 1: when you put it into real nitty gritty dollar and 824 00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:54,840 Speaker 1: sense terms, and people are much more sympathetic to it 825 00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:59,200 Speaker 1: because they kind of understand the real implications beyond just 826 00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:02,400 Speaker 1: sort of a concept. A sure, did being married feel 827 00:48:02,440 --> 00:48:07,840 Speaker 1: different to you guys than being in the relationship before that? Nope, No, 828 00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:11,759 Speaker 1: We're like two flokes, were very We're sort of not 829 00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:14,000 Speaker 1: the most sentimental people. I'm glad you told me when 830 00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:17,480 Speaker 1: the dates of gay marriage legalization were, because neither of 831 00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:19,640 Speaker 1: us has any idea when we got married, So now 832 00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:21,239 Speaker 1: I know it was between two thousand and four and 833 00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:25,040 Speaker 1: two thousand and eight. Do you remember the date? Nope? 834 00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:28,400 Speaker 1: But you know, my parents got married um in a 835 00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:30,560 Speaker 1: registered office and they went to the pub next door 836 00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:33,440 Speaker 1: and they got paralytically drunk and lost the marriage certificate. 837 00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:35,400 Speaker 1: So they never knew when they were married, and they 838 00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:40,040 Speaker 1: never had a wedding anniversary. So you never celebrate your anniversary. Well, 839 00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:45,120 Speaker 1: I think you know what. Every we're very celebratory about 840 00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:48,399 Speaker 1: our lives. Like this weekend, we're a paddle boarding. How 841 00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:50,720 Speaker 1: lucky are we? Look at the weather, look at the dog. 842 00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:55,480 Speaker 1: Hello you you're cute. Like we don't take anything for granted, 843 00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:59,240 Speaker 1: But it's those celebrate every day, but easyctly, we're lucky 844 00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:01,440 Speaker 1: to have such eight lives, and neither of us is 845 00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:03,600 Speaker 1: terribly sentimental. But I will see you like you know, 846 00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:06,000 Speaker 1: I went to Brown in the late eighties and somehow 847 00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:09,400 Speaker 1: all of my friends were these like super fancy heiresses. 848 00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:14,200 Speaker 1: And so after college, Simons when I first well there's 849 00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:17,239 Speaker 1: a reason I'm saying this. So when Simon first met me, 850 00:49:17,320 --> 00:49:19,480 Speaker 1: we went to about ten weddings in a row that 851 00:49:19,560 --> 00:49:23,200 Speaker 1: each one was more extravagant and glamorous than the last 852 00:49:23,239 --> 00:49:25,880 Speaker 1: of these, like ras after ars getting married, and they 853 00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:29,760 Speaker 1: were billion dollar sermons. But they're all divorced. Every single 854 00:49:29,760 --> 00:49:32,600 Speaker 1: one of them is divorced, So you know, I think 855 00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:35,000 Speaker 1: there's a little bit of a lesson there. Like Sliman 856 00:49:35,080 --> 00:49:39,680 Speaker 1: and I had a very low key wedding and we're 857 00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:44,800 Speaker 1: blissfully happily together loathies. However many years it's been later 858 00:49:45,760 --> 00:49:49,000 Speaker 1: ten years, if you feel it, because I love for 859 00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:50,840 Speaker 1: a lot of people, you know that we have a 860 00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:54,000 Speaker 1: lot of events in our lives as to you, events 861 00:49:54,040 --> 00:49:56,000 Speaker 1: events you live in New York because there was some 862 00:49:56,080 --> 00:49:58,719 Speaker 1: bloody thing going on. For a lot of people, the 863 00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:01,600 Speaker 1: wedding is that it's the big thing that they're always 864 00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:04,000 Speaker 1: going to remember, and the just and the flowers and 865 00:50:04,040 --> 00:50:06,440 Speaker 1: the why not if that's you know? So I know, 866 00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:09,040 Speaker 1: I don't have an opinion about it. It's entirely a 867 00:50:09,080 --> 00:50:11,359 Speaker 1: personal thing, whether you do that or not. So after 868 00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:13,520 Speaker 1: watching so many people around you break up, what do 869 00:50:13,560 --> 00:50:17,280 Speaker 1: you think is the secret to your success? I think 870 00:50:17,600 --> 00:50:20,719 Speaker 1: we have a common sense of humor, and our parents 871 00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:25,160 Speaker 1: are weirdly similar. Like our sensibility. We tend to laugh 872 00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:29,320 Speaker 1: at the same thing, you know, make fun of each other, tease. 873 00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:33,319 Speaker 1: I think humor is so important, and even if even 874 00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:36,040 Speaker 1: if just one person in the couple is funny, and 875 00:50:36,040 --> 00:50:37,840 Speaker 1: I think you both are funny, and I would like 876 00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:40,760 Speaker 1: to say in my marriage, we're both I think pretty funny. 877 00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:44,320 Speaker 1: But it's also the ability to appreciate the other person's 878 00:50:44,320 --> 00:50:49,440 Speaker 1: sense of humor, which is really really important as very funny. 879 00:50:49,640 --> 00:50:53,120 Speaker 1: And I think sometimes you're funny. He thinks sound funny. 880 00:50:53,239 --> 00:50:55,880 Speaker 1: I think he's funny. And that's when I think most 881 00:50:56,400 --> 00:51:00,560 Speaker 1: duos really work when there's a joint appreciate ation of 882 00:51:00,640 --> 00:51:03,360 Speaker 1: each other. And it's not a common thing. You know. 883 00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:05,000 Speaker 1: The other night, I was in a restaurant and I 884 00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:07,319 Speaker 1: was looking. There was a group of guys together and 885 00:51:07,320 --> 00:51:10,239 Speaker 1: they're all roaring with laughter and drinking. A group of 886 00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:14,160 Speaker 1: girls after work, screaming with laughter, like throwing things at 887 00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:16,760 Speaker 1: each other, having such a great time. And then a couple, 888 00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:19,080 Speaker 1: a man and a woman together and they look like 889 00:51:19,120 --> 00:51:22,719 Speaker 1: they're very anxious with each other, you know, was the 890 00:51:22,840 --> 00:51:25,920 Speaker 1: first date and yeah, And I thought, oh, well, hopefully 891 00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:28,239 Speaker 1: that loosens up a bit, because when you do go 892 00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:30,200 Speaker 1: out and you see a man and a woman together 893 00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:34,000 Speaker 1: and they're laughing and joking, it's the nicest thing to see. 894 00:51:34,040 --> 00:51:36,680 Speaker 1: You think, oh, yeah, look that's a rap pole right there. 895 00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:39,680 Speaker 1: I used to always look at couples in restaurants, and 896 00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:41,680 Speaker 1: if they weren't talking to each other, I'd say it 897 00:51:41,719 --> 00:51:45,359 Speaker 1: to my husband. My my first husband passed away, and 898 00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:48,520 Speaker 1: so I would say, hey, if we ever turn out 899 00:51:48,560 --> 00:51:51,680 Speaker 1: like those people, I'm going to be so depressed because 900 00:51:51,719 --> 00:51:54,720 Speaker 1: they're not even speaking to one other. But I've actually 901 00:51:54,719 --> 00:51:59,319 Speaker 1: come around because I think there's something really nice occasionally, 902 00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:03,080 Speaker 1: not all the time, about being able to be quiet 903 00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:06,640 Speaker 1: with someone too, that not feeling like you have to 904 00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:09,759 Speaker 1: entertain each other all the time, and just sort of 905 00:52:10,200 --> 00:52:18,200 Speaker 1: being comfortable on the first bloody day. Bring it on 906 00:52:18,239 --> 00:52:20,320 Speaker 1: the first date. I mean to get to that point, 907 00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:22,239 Speaker 1: all right, but yeah, but I just need to kick 908 00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:25,520 Speaker 1: it back to us on that first date. My god 909 00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:29,160 Speaker 1: was he mute? You should thank me every day Sliman 910 00:52:29,239 --> 00:52:31,880 Speaker 1: that I was the chatty Cathy that I am in 911 00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:35,879 Speaker 1: now twenty we discussed the word from the control room. 912 00:52:35,920 --> 00:52:38,520 Speaker 1: We just figured out that your ten year wedding anniversary 913 00:52:38,680 --> 00:52:43,400 Speaker 1: is actually tomorrow. Did you know this? Tomorrow? Thank you 914 00:52:43,480 --> 00:52:48,319 Speaker 1: get me sept ten years? All right, we'll be shut 915 00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:51,279 Speaker 1: to um not celebrate that. I think Jonathan has this 916 00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:55,600 Speaker 1: beautiful vase that's covered with rests your name on it. 917 00:52:56,000 --> 00:53:01,040 Speaker 1: What are you getting me? But yeah, it is interesting 918 00:53:01,120 --> 00:53:03,839 Speaker 1: why low these many years later, why we still are 919 00:53:03,880 --> 00:53:07,319 Speaker 1: such a happy couple and to be I would never 920 00:53:07,360 --> 00:53:10,400 Speaker 1: say this, I r l just but I never tire 921 00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:14,399 Speaker 1: of seeing my Simon's face. I'm always happy to see 922 00:53:14,440 --> 00:53:18,080 Speaker 1: that little face too. Simon and Jonathan has been so 923 00:53:18,120 --> 00:53:19,920 Speaker 1: fun to talk to you and actually for me to 924 00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:22,799 Speaker 1: get to know you both a little bit better. And 925 00:53:23,160 --> 00:53:27,920 Speaker 1: happy anniversary. I'm sure you'll celebrate it in style if 926 00:53:28,000 --> 00:53:36,040 Speaker 1: you remember. But just again, it's tomorrow. That's incredible, And 927 00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:38,920 Speaker 1: thank you so much for coming by and being on 928 00:53:38,960 --> 00:53:42,200 Speaker 1: the podcast. We really appreciate it and really enjoyed it. 929 00:53:42,640 --> 00:53:44,879 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. Thank you. We had a great time. 930 00:53:50,719 --> 00:53:53,719 Speaker 1: That does it for our first ever couple's episode. Thank 931 00:53:53,760 --> 00:53:56,680 Speaker 1: you to our team at Stitcher, our producer Gianna Palmer, 932 00:53:57,000 --> 00:54:01,759 Speaker 1: associate producer Noura Richie, Andy Kristen who engineered this episode, 933 00:54:01,880 --> 00:54:05,280 Speaker 1: Gratzy Andy, she's very cute. That's Andy with an eye 934 00:54:05,320 --> 00:54:08,799 Speaker 1: and she's a female. And Jared O'Connell who mixed this episode, 935 00:54:09,080 --> 00:54:12,800 Speaker 1: and of course my assistant Beth Demas and my new 936 00:54:13,040 --> 00:54:17,240 Speaker 1: digital guru Julia Lewis. Mark Phillips wrote our theme music. 937 00:54:17,320 --> 00:54:19,920 Speaker 1: Katie Kirk and I are the show's executive producers. If 938 00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:22,160 Speaker 1: you'd like to keep the conversation going, find us on 939 00:54:22,200 --> 00:54:25,400 Speaker 1: social media. I tweet from at Goldsmith B and Katie 940 00:54:25,480 --> 00:54:28,640 Speaker 1: is all over the place on Instagram under Katie kerk. 941 00:54:28,800 --> 00:54:30,719 Speaker 1: Check out my stories people if you want to be 942 00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:33,520 Speaker 1: amused me while. We'll be back next week for real, 943 00:54:33,640 --> 00:54:36,520 Speaker 1: this time because we have no choice. With the first 944 00:54:36,560 --> 00:54:40,560 Speaker 1: installment in our documentary series, looking back at our interviews 945 00:54:40,640 --> 00:54:44,720 Speaker 1: from ten years ago with vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin. 946 00:54:45,120 --> 00:54:45,759 Speaker 1: Talk to you then,