1 00:00:05,559 --> 00:00:08,160 Speaker 1: On this episode of Newts World. The House voted Wednesday 2 00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:11,000 Speaker 1: to pass a bill raising the nation's debt ceiling, after 3 00:00:11,119 --> 00:00:15,040 Speaker 1: days of wrangling Republican lawmakers to unify behind the package, 4 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:18,560 Speaker 1: which would bolster House Speaker Kevin McCarthy's position at the 5 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:21,919 Speaker 1: negotiating table with the White House. The final vote was 6 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:25,639 Speaker 1: two hundred seventeen to two fifteen, with four Republicans voting 7 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:29,159 Speaker 1: against the bill. It was an extraordinary achievement, and the 8 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:32,200 Speaker 1: fact that the bill passed, I think changes the whole 9 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:35,080 Speaker 1: scene in Washington, and it puts the Republicans in the 10 00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:38,600 Speaker 1: House right at the center of the negotiating table here 11 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:42,120 Speaker 1: to discuss the future of the debt ceiling debate and 12 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:46,600 Speaker 1: its very important historic implications. I'm really pleased to welcome 13 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:50,920 Speaker 1: my guest, Veronique de Rougie. She's the George Gibbs Chair 14 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:55,400 Speaker 1: in Political Economy and Senior Research Fellow at the Mecadas 15 00:00:55,480 --> 00:01:10,680 Speaker 1: Center at George Mason University and a nationally syndicated columnist. Vernique, 16 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:12,959 Speaker 1: welcome and thank you for joining me on news World. 17 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:14,679 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. 18 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:16,920 Speaker 1: You are so knowledgeable in this area. It's going to 19 00:01:16,959 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 1: be a lot of fun, as you know. On April 20 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:22,319 Speaker 1: twenty six, the House passed what the Republicans had called 21 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:25,640 Speaker 1: the Limit Save Grow Act of twenty twenty three, a 22 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 1: sign they're learning from the Democrats how to make sure 23 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:31,040 Speaker 1: they have fancy titles. It was a very close vote. 24 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:33,440 Speaker 1: The Republicans were two hundred and seventeen yes, four no 25 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:37,200 Speaker 1: one not voting. The Democrats were two hundred and eleven nos, 26 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:40,200 Speaker 1: two not voting. So the margin was pretty darn close, 27 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:45,280 Speaker 1: and at the time has been the largest proposed cut 28 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:48,919 Speaker 1: in spending ever passed as part of a death ceiling. Now, 29 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:53,240 Speaker 1: I'm very curious from your perspective, how do you see 30 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 1: this whole dance of the death ceiling. 31 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 3: Until twenty eleven, I never actually thought about the possibility 32 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 3: of using the that's feeling as a way to even 33 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:07,640 Speaker 3: have a conversation about fiscal sustainability. And I was extremely, 34 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 3: extremely aggressive in twenty eleven. So I think it is 35 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 3: an opportunity there better than anyone else that between these 36 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:21,760 Speaker 3: inflection points where Congress has to do something, there's not 37 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:26,440 Speaker 3: a lot of willingness to talk about our fiscal situation. 38 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:31,240 Speaker 3: And I am very glad that this is a fight 39 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:34,640 Speaker 3: that they're once again the Republicans are once again willing 40 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:39,520 Speaker 3: to have and that they're using this opportunity now. The 41 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 3: reality is in order to make it a very meaningful 42 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 3: change to our fiscal path, to do way more than 43 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:56,640 Speaker 3: what was done. But any small step is important because 44 00:02:56,680 --> 00:03:02,200 Speaker 3: it engages the public and makes them understand. I hope 45 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:07,079 Speaker 3: first that we have a problem, second that there are 46 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:09,040 Speaker 3: some people who are willing to talk about it, and 47 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:13,200 Speaker 3: I think third that the sky is not falling if. 48 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:13,520 Speaker 2: We do it. 49 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:17,120 Speaker 1: As you will remember, when I was Speaker, we authored 50 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:20,639 Speaker 1: four consecutive balanced budgets for the only time in your lifetime, 51 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:23,400 Speaker 1: and at the time it seemed like a very bold 52 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 1: and daring idea, but we actually got it done. And 53 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:30,320 Speaker 1: what I'm intrigued with is the gap here between those 54 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 1: like President Biden who are saying do nothing. I've been 55 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:37,240 Speaker 1: working on a new language, because when people talk about 56 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 1: passing a clean debt ceiling, what they actually mean is 57 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:42,360 Speaker 1: a debt ceiling where none of the patterns, the spending, 58 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 1: the taxing, the deficit, the interest and the death none 59 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 1: of that's going to change. And I don't think that's 60 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 1: particularly clean. So I began talking about an unreformed debt 61 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:57,000 Speaker 1: ceiling versus a debt ceiling that has reforms. And CBS 62 00:03:57,080 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 1: just came up with a poll that showed the twenty 63 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 1: three percent want the dead ceiling without conditions, but literally 64 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:09,760 Speaker 1: three quarters of the country neither want spending cuts. That's 65 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 1: fifty five percent or twenty percent. The country doesn't want 66 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:15,400 Speaker 1: to raise the deat ceiling period, which of course would 67 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 1: be unmanageable. I think technically it's not an option. Doesn't 68 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:22,359 Speaker 1: that strike you that the country is actually ahead of 69 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:24,919 Speaker 1: the elites and understanding that we have to turn the 70 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:28,160 Speaker 1: corner on total spending and have to start moving back 71 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 1: towards something that's more balanced. 72 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:33,600 Speaker 3: It is, I mean the country. It's interesting, this full 73 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:37,080 Speaker 3: is not the first one. I mean, year after year. Right, 74 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 3: We're always happy at conservative Libertarians, We're always happy to 75 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:46,240 Speaker 3: point out that when asked, the American people actually want 76 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:49,720 Speaker 3: fiscal responsibility and is happy to try to get there 77 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:51,280 Speaker 3: by cutting spending. 78 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:55,360 Speaker 2: But in the end, for whatever reason, nothing happens. 79 00:04:55,480 --> 00:05:00,279 Speaker 3: Unfortunately, when you dig deeper and you I feel asked people, 80 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:01,280 Speaker 3: for instance, do you want to. 81 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:04,040 Speaker 2: Do effectively what we would need to do, which is. 82 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:08,440 Speaker 3: To reform the program that we wrongfully call entitlement spending 83 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:10,800 Speaker 3: that's Medicare, Medicaid, social Security. 84 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:14,600 Speaker 2: Very few people are with us, But there. 85 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:18,839 Speaker 3: Is no doubt that the American people is fiscally conservative. 86 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 3: It's fiscally conservative. It's like, it's understand the need that 87 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:25,280 Speaker 3: we're in a bad by the way they express it 88 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 3: in a lot of ways, right I mean, it's not 89 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:30,800 Speaker 3: as if right now they think we're in a good 90 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:34,840 Speaker 3: place as a country economically. A lot of them have 91 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:38,800 Speaker 3: been expressing that we're on the wrong path. I think 92 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:42,559 Speaker 3: it's because this sense that there is something that's really 93 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:45,600 Speaker 3: out of control. But I like the way you put it, 94 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:48,880 Speaker 3: the clean you know it's really not clean, And the 95 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:51,560 Speaker 3: way usually I actually put it is like doing nothing 96 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 3: guarantees you a lot of pain down the road, including 97 00:05:56,320 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 3: there's a very messy situation of hitting social security reform 98 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:04,240 Speaker 3: and the way completely unprepared and in the way you 99 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:08,359 Speaker 3: don't want to be approaching these type of deadlines. 100 00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:11,800 Speaker 1: From your standpoint professionally, how much trouble do you think 101 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:14,800 Speaker 1: we're in if we don't begin to change direction. 102 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:18,480 Speaker 2: I think we're an enormous trouble now. 103 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:22,800 Speaker 3: I have maybe lost a lot of credibility because I've 104 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 3: been saying this that at some point we're going to 105 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:28,480 Speaker 3: have a lot of trouble. But think about it this way. 106 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:33,960 Speaker 3: In the next thirty years to program Medicare and Social 107 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 3: Security are facing a shortfall of one hundred and sixteen 108 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 3: trillion dollars and this includes the interest payment we're going 109 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:46,200 Speaker 3: to have to pay on the debt two because we're 110 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:49,680 Speaker 3: going to have to borrow a lot of money just 111 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:53,279 Speaker 3: to pay for these two programs. That's also assuming that 112 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:56,160 Speaker 3: we get the inflation under control and that interest rates 113 00:06:56,160 --> 00:06:59,719 Speaker 3: don't have to go up much much more. That's also 114 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 3: assuming that feeding the beast with more borrowed money is 115 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:08,520 Speaker 3: not going to fuel inflation in a way that becomes 116 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 3: out of control. 117 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 2: If you look at these two programs, which are the. 118 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:14,640 Speaker 3: Big driver of our debt, of course Medicaid is it's 119 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:15,840 Speaker 3: also part of the problem. 120 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:19,000 Speaker 2: We are not on a sustainable path. 121 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:23,400 Speaker 3: There's another thing that we're relearning now, and I'm actually 122 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 3: interested in your perspective on this, is when you look 123 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:31,560 Speaker 3: at CBO projections right, which go very quickly within thirty 124 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 3: years to over one hundred and fifty percent of GDP 125 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:40,200 Speaker 3: of debt accumulation two hundred percent there seem to be 126 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 3: a misunderstanding that at some point, if investors and thirty 127 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:49,800 Speaker 3: percent of our debt is held by short term investors, 128 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:52,320 Speaker 3: so it's maturity of less than a year, right, that 129 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:56,720 Speaker 3: those investors at some point are going to worry that 130 00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 3: all is borrowing that we're doing is not. 131 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 2: Going to be paid back. And the way it's going 132 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:06,400 Speaker 2: to be paid back is with inflation, which is what 133 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:10,240 Speaker 2: countries over centuries have done over and over again. And 134 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 2: then you have a real big problem on your hands. 135 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:15,400 Speaker 3: But none of the projection that you see at cdo 136 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:20,440 Speaker 3: actually take under consideration that kind of scenario. 137 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:22,240 Speaker 2: So I think we're in big trouble. 138 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 1: When you're talking about being in big trouble, I mean 139 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 1: the striction at the Congressional Budget Office is sort of 140 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 1: too bureaucratic to be frightened. They lack the imagination to 141 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 1: realize that historically you can get into a crisis where 142 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:38,760 Speaker 1: you have no resources and you have no maneuvering room. 143 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 3: Yes, there's an understanding that to some extent, debt accumulation 144 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 3: over the years causes potentially interest rates to go up, 145 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 3: but it's underestimating the possibility of how far they can go. 146 00:08:56,440 --> 00:09:00,520 Speaker 3: But also the impact of debt accumulation without any promise 147 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:05,280 Speaker 3: of repayment can have on inflation when you start having 148 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:10,840 Speaker 3: inflation that's triggered by this our fiscal situation and the 149 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:14,840 Speaker 3: worry that investors could have that the FED will take 150 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:18,440 Speaker 3: care of the debt. Basically, the reversal of the roles 151 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:20,439 Speaker 3: and the CBO doesn't. 152 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 2: At all account for this. 153 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:24,720 Speaker 3: I've had conversation with my colleague, Keith Hall was the 154 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 3: director of CEO, and he said, yeah, it's just this 155 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:30,080 Speaker 3: is not part of the conversation we have now. 156 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:32,120 Speaker 2: In their defense, this. 157 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:37,320 Speaker 3: Is also not a way that in academia we have 158 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:40,760 Speaker 3: a tendency to separate the fiscal side and the monetary side, 159 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:41,640 Speaker 3: and I think it's. 160 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:43,640 Speaker 2: A mistake we should be actually talking. 161 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:47,400 Speaker 3: If this time is telling us anything, is that we 162 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 3: should be talking about those two things together much more. 163 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:54,079 Speaker 1: When you have the high level of inflation and people 164 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:56,679 Speaker 1: can't afford to buy food, and they can't afford to 165 00:09:56,679 --> 00:09:59,080 Speaker 1: pay for their housing, and they can't afford to pay 166 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:02,880 Speaker 1: for gasoline, there's a real human impact of what seems 167 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 1: at one level just to be numbers, but suddenly the 168 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:09,360 Speaker 1: numbers become practical and really affect people. It seems to me, 169 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 1: you're totally right. 170 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:13,079 Speaker 2: I mean, inflation is no fun. 171 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:16,720 Speaker 3: The other thing that we're finding out is that I've 172 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:20,720 Speaker 3: heard during the pandemic, when some of us were raising 173 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 3: the alarm about inflation and about the risk triggered by 174 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 3: all the money printing but also all the spending without 175 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:30,960 Speaker 3: any promise of repayment, we were always told, I mean, 176 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 3: it's been a long time since we've had inflation, right, 177 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:38,360 Speaker 3: inflation at that level. I was systematically told, do not worry. 178 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:43,080 Speaker 3: The FED has the tool. If inflation starts, the FED 179 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:46,640 Speaker 3: has the tool. And what I've learned since then, and 180 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 3: we're all learning, is that the only tool the FED 181 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:53,080 Speaker 3: has really is to raise interest rates, which that too 182 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:58,359 Speaker 3: is painful, right, and it's not that great even at 183 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:00,240 Speaker 3: controlling inflation. 184 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:04,560 Speaker 2: If the administration is spending. 185 00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:08,200 Speaker 3: A ton of money and it's not helping the FED 186 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:09,480 Speaker 3: with fiscal constraint. 187 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:30,320 Speaker 1: That's what happened to Jimmy Carter, who ended up with 188 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 1: a kind of stagflation where they had bad unemployment and 189 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:38,120 Speaker 1: bad inflation simultaneously, and they couldn't break out of it 190 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:40,640 Speaker 1: because they were trying to do it on the demand 191 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 1: side by squeezing the consumer, and that causes so much 192 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:46,800 Speaker 1: pain that you can't sustain it in the free society. 193 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:49,400 Speaker 3: Yes, and that's where you know, you have to start 194 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 3: worrying of things that we haven't talked about in a 195 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 3: long time, like fiscal dominance. 196 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:56,800 Speaker 2: What the hell is this is when. 197 00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:00,840 Speaker 3: Interest payment on the debt in the next ten years 198 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:03,760 Speaker 3: is going to be ten trillion dollars, first, this is 199 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:06,240 Speaker 3: going to actually kind of squeeze out. It's kind of 200 00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:09,079 Speaker 3: put some pressure on other stuff that we want to 201 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:12,120 Speaker 3: actually we may as a country want to use money on. 202 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:15,040 Speaker 3: But it's also because this money needs to be borrowed, 203 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:18,320 Speaker 3: could actually make inflation worse, right, and so then in 204 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 3: that condition that means raising interest rate more. But then 205 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:24,440 Speaker 3: it causes this cycle where then the FED could be 206 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:28,160 Speaker 3: asked by the administration whomever ins power, to say, can 207 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:31,000 Speaker 3: you just slow down? This is just causing too much 208 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:35,480 Speaker 3: political pain, And then you get into this dance which 209 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:37,600 Speaker 3: I think a lot of that was happening in the 210 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 3: seventies if I'm not wrong, And there's a political reality 211 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 3: is an economic reality, and when the two clash, unfortunately 212 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:51,240 Speaker 3: for us, that politics often wins. And this is how 213 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:54,400 Speaker 3: you get the inflation to last longer and to even 214 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:57,679 Speaker 3: take off again. I think the numbers today weren't good. 215 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:01,760 Speaker 1: Aren't we seeing an example how hard it is to 216 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 1: reform things in what's happening in France. France has the 217 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:09,600 Speaker 1: youngest retirement rate I think in Europe at sixty two, 218 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:12,840 Speaker 1: and Macrone, the president. Macron tried to raise it to 219 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:16,240 Speaker 1: sixty four. Couldn't get it through the Parliament and this 220 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:20,160 Speaker 1: National Assembly, and under a provision of the French Constitution, 221 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:23,840 Speaker 1: the president, this was one of the Gaul's contributions. The 222 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:28,360 Speaker 1: president can actually suspend pass a reform, and it actually 223 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:31,280 Speaker 1: takes a vote of no confidence in the government to 224 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:33,960 Speaker 1: stop it, and of course that would mean in an 225 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 1: election which these guys would lose their seats. So then 226 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 1: nobody did it. But the result is you have millions 227 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:42,040 Speaker 1: of people in France who are kind of an open rebellion. 228 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 3: Here is the backstory that I learned from the people 229 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:48,720 Speaker 3: in France who are like fighting to give some cover 230 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:52,960 Speaker 3: to Macon to be able to do this first, this reform. 231 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:56,560 Speaker 3: He's wanted to do it for a long time. He's 232 00:13:56,640 --> 00:13:58,600 Speaker 3: wanted to do it. He was talking about it when 233 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:04,360 Speaker 3: the Economic minister under ol And what I'm surprised we 234 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 3: don't hear a lot talked about here is that the 235 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:12,360 Speaker 3: reason why he had no choice to use what is 236 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:15,640 Speaker 3: effectively the equivalent of an executive order, except that in 237 00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:18,960 Speaker 3: this case, I think it is constitutional to use it 238 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:22,120 Speaker 3: for what they used it for, is that the rating 239 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:26,640 Speaker 3: agencies had told him, if you do not pass this reform, we're. 240 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:29,360 Speaker 2: Going to downgrade the note of friends, and. 241 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 3: That is why he had the political courage to not 242 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:36,920 Speaker 3: back down. The other thing that people don't realize about 243 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:40,360 Speaker 3: friends is that the sixty two is the top numbers, 244 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 3: but all the union men, not all of them, but 245 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 3: they are really protected categories of union members and friends 246 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:50,240 Speaker 3: who are retiring at fifty and fifty two. First they 247 00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 3: were working thirty five hours a week, right, which is 248 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 3: not many. They were like driving trains or subways. It's 249 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:01,000 Speaker 3: not the subways, and the trains used to put Cole 250 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 3: in the trains, right, which justified maybe an earlier retirement age. 251 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:09,240 Speaker 3: Now it's just all automatic. You press a button and 252 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:14,480 Speaker 3: it's just really simple. And the unions are the one agitating, 253 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:18,680 Speaker 3: and French people, for whatever reason, when the unions say 254 00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:22,120 Speaker 3: let's get in the street, they go in the street. 255 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:26,119 Speaker 1: Given the difficulty the challenge of those kind of reforms, 256 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:29,120 Speaker 1: I think you have to have a very gradual approach 257 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:35,480 Speaker 1: because anything which is too decisive ends up breaking up 258 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:36,359 Speaker 1: in a sense. 259 00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:39,320 Speaker 2: I agree, And it also needs to be bipartisan. 260 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:43,040 Speaker 3: And this is where there's a real difficulty in the 261 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:46,920 Speaker 3: situation where we are right now, is that all of 262 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:50,920 Speaker 3: the significant reform of entitlement have actually been done, and 263 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:54,600 Speaker 3: they were gradual, and they were they were all done 264 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 3: in a more bipartisan manner, and right now there's just 265 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:01,400 Speaker 3: no will to even. 266 00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 2: Start talking about it. Though. 267 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:06,520 Speaker 3: I was surprised to actually hear Senator Bernie Senders talk 268 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:10,080 Speaker 3: about how Social Security was insolvent, and of course his 269 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:13,320 Speaker 3: solution is just to raise the enormous amount of taxes 270 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 3: on people who he hopes will not be benefiting from 271 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:18,000 Speaker 3: Social Security. 272 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:20,280 Speaker 1: When you're faced with that kind of an impasse, and 273 00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 1: we may have that coming up in the next few months. 274 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:26,000 Speaker 1: Over the debt ceiling, how big a threat in your 275 00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:29,160 Speaker 1: mind is it that the US might default? 276 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:30,560 Speaker 2: I just don't see it. 277 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:34,160 Speaker 3: There are plans in place to be able to pay 278 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 3: interest on the debt, which is one of the things. 279 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:38,920 Speaker 2: That you really absolutely have to do. I think they 280 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:40,120 Speaker 2: will find a decision. 281 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:43,400 Speaker 3: And let's face it, now the Republicans have passed something. 282 00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 3: The Democrats need to come to the table. The bill 283 00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:49,880 Speaker 3: is on their court to actually do something, at least 284 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:50,760 Speaker 3: come and talk. 285 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 1: This is one of those rare occasions where the difference 286 00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 1: in those two outcomes is so amazing, because now the 287 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:02,080 Speaker 1: only bill which is passed to stop default is the 288 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:05,320 Speaker 1: House Republican bill. I think it's impossible for Schumer to 289 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:09,200 Speaker 1: pass anything unless the Republicans agree to it. He can't 290 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:12,240 Speaker 1: get to cloture and so in under center rules, he 291 00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:15,040 Speaker 1: literally will not be able to pass anything. And Biden 292 00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:18,320 Speaker 1: now has to face the reality that there is something 293 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:21,679 Speaker 1: out there which would avoid a default. He may hate it, 294 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:23,480 Speaker 1: he may be opposed to it. And it seems to 295 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 1: me that that gives McCarthy and the House Republicans an 296 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:31,879 Speaker 1: enormous advantage in the argument that we're going to have 297 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:34,040 Speaker 1: in the next two or three months. How do you 298 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:34,439 Speaker 1: see it. 299 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:38,480 Speaker 3: I agree with you that the Republicans have passed something 300 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 3: and is very significant. I think it's going to be 301 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:48,520 Speaker 3: much harder for the Democrats to say that the Republicans 302 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:52,320 Speaker 3: are aiming for default because all that it takes to 303 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:55,240 Speaker 3: not have a default is for the Democrats to come 304 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:59,560 Speaker 3: to the table and pass something or even start a negotiation. 305 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:04,080 Speaker 3: That said, it's like, I'm baffled by the way the 306 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 3: bill itself, the dead Ceiling Deal bill is presented in 307 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:13,680 Speaker 3: the press. This bill, it's canceling some COVID fund, which 308 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:17,639 Speaker 3: is a good budget hygiene to do this, but it's 309 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:22,480 Speaker 3: also demanding that we go back to the spending level of. 310 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 2: Twenty twenty two, not twenty nineteen. 311 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:32,040 Speaker 3: And the way the press is presenting these really minor 312 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:36,639 Speaker 3: spending cuts, and a lot of it is spending cuts 313 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:37,920 Speaker 3: to the growth. 314 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 2: Of spending in the next ten years. 315 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:43,199 Speaker 3: They're talking about it as if planes are going to 316 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:47,240 Speaker 3: be canceled because there won't be enough air traffic controllers. 317 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:51,240 Speaker 3: Suicides are going to be on the rise because suicide 318 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:54,640 Speaker 3: hotlines that are paid by government dollars are not going 319 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:57,600 Speaker 3: to be able to be staffed. They're talking about like 320 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:02,600 Speaker 3: people going hungry. And the thing is, to my knowledge, 321 00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:04,280 Speaker 3: there were none. 322 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:07,399 Speaker 2: Of that going on in twenty nineteen. 323 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:12,000 Speaker 3: Planes were flying, people were not dying of starvation in 324 00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:15,840 Speaker 3: the streets, and we were spending much less on the 325 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:20,879 Speaker 3: discretionary side much less, at least three hundred billion dollars 326 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:26,840 Speaker 3: less than we spent on the discretionary side in twenty 327 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:31,280 Speaker 3: twenty two. So the rhetoric, it just tells me they're 328 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:34,680 Speaker 3: not serious about it. I don't know if they're willing 329 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:38,360 Speaker 3: to kind of continue talking this way, but if they are, 330 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:41,879 Speaker 3: they're extremely irresponsible, and I don't think it looks good. 331 00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:01,920 Speaker 1: In a policy spotlight on April twenty four, I'm quoting you, now, 332 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:05,280 Speaker 1: our country needs an agenda of abundance, So I thinks 333 00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:07,840 Speaker 1: a great title. What do you mean by an agenda 334 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:08,560 Speaker 1: of abundance? 335 00:20:09,119 --> 00:20:10,720 Speaker 3: The way I was thinking about it, and we have 336 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:14,679 Speaker 3: an entire series on abundance and what we mean about this. 337 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:20,159 Speaker 3: A lot of the way people think about addressing problems 338 00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:22,880 Speaker 3: is to say, what can the government do? What can 339 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:26,040 Speaker 3: the government spend? And what we're trying to say is, 340 00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:29,400 Speaker 3: you know what, the best way to actually make people's 341 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 3: lives better is by growing the economy, but it's also. 342 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:36,119 Speaker 2: By removing the barriers. 343 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:40,680 Speaker 3: To work and to produce and to lowering prices for Americans. So, 344 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:46,840 Speaker 3: for instance, an agenda of abundance for housing absolutely doesn't 345 00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:48,320 Speaker 3: involve the government. 346 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:51,879 Speaker 2: Spending more money to build homes. What it needs to 347 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:54,200 Speaker 2: do is actually remove. 348 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 3: A lot of the zoning and lend use that are 349 00:20:56,920 --> 00:21:02,200 Speaker 3: hindering the ability of builders to build homes and then 350 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:05,679 Speaker 3: lower the price of housing across the globe. What that 351 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:09,560 Speaker 3: would do for workers who are stock in areas of 352 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:13,160 Speaker 3: the country where unemployment is high and wages are low 353 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:16,679 Speaker 3: is that it would allow them to actually move to 354 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:19,959 Speaker 3: a place in the nation where wages are higher, but 355 00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:24,040 Speaker 3: where they can go now because housing costs are really expensive. 356 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:30,080 Speaker 3: Like modest deregulation of housing land use my colleagues have 357 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:36,440 Speaker 3: shown could unleash trillions of dollars of growth just by 358 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:38,800 Speaker 3: not even by allowing people to move to New York. 359 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:41,600 Speaker 1: Do you find in that sense that the regulatory state 360 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:45,080 Speaker 1: maybe an even bigger impediment than the tax policy. 361 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:49,480 Speaker 2: So these two things are connected, right, So yes. 362 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:51,720 Speaker 3: I mean in a lot of ways, this is the 363 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:55,080 Speaker 3: untap opportunity that we have that we don't like to. 364 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:58,080 Speaker 2: Talk as much because it's difficult. 365 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:02,480 Speaker 3: One of the big drivers of economic growth is innovation. 366 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:07,399 Speaker 3: Innovation is fueled by capital. If you have lots of 367 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:12,560 Speaker 3: taxes on capital, you have much less capital available for innovators. 368 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:17,120 Speaker 3: And when I mean innovators. I don't just mean innovators 369 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:21,359 Speaker 3: in big companies. I mean all sorts of innovators, the 370 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:25,040 Speaker 3: people we don't even think about, who we can't even 371 00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:28,800 Speaker 3: imagine that they're actually working on something that could be transformative. 372 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:32,600 Speaker 2: And so these things they're connected. 373 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 3: And so an agenda of abundance means a lot of deregulation. 374 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:41,920 Speaker 2: We need plenty of energy. 375 00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:45,760 Speaker 3: Everything we want to do as a nation to grow 376 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:47,359 Speaker 3: requires a lot of energy. 377 00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:49,240 Speaker 2: There's so many. 378 00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:53,280 Speaker 3: Regulations now that are just holding back where we're not 379 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:56,280 Speaker 3: producing the level of energy that we should be producing. 380 00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:56,639 Speaker 2: We're not. 381 00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:02,280 Speaker 3: We've stopped being a country of abundance and energy, and 382 00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:05,640 Speaker 3: that would lower the cost for literally everything we do. 383 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:08,440 Speaker 2: So that's what we mean. 384 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:13,160 Speaker 1: Is it the Mercada Center that's developing this entire policy 385 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:17,200 Speaker 1: agenda on abundance? Yes, we will link to that on 386 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:19,680 Speaker 1: our show page. I think that's a fascinating concept. 387 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:24,400 Speaker 3: We cannot overstate the importance of economic growth. And it's 388 00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:28,879 Speaker 3: not just that there's no other way to double GDP 389 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:30,080 Speaker 3: per capita. 390 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:30,600 Speaker 2: In a generation. 391 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:34,359 Speaker 3: There's just no better way to do that than unleashing 392 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:35,200 Speaker 3: economic growth. 393 00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 2: But it also unleashes a lot. 394 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:43,119 Speaker 3: Of the values that we want for families, health, peace, 395 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:45,879 Speaker 3: religious tolerance, democracy. 396 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:47,000 Speaker 2: We know this. 397 00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:51,480 Speaker 3: When you have period of flow growth, you get much 398 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:57,520 Speaker 3: less of this, more intolerance, more tribalism, lots of unrest. 399 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:01,560 Speaker 3: There's a reason why people are in the street in France. 400 00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:06,119 Speaker 3: This is a country that has not grown for a 401 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:09,840 Speaker 3: long time. And the thing that's fascinating about the studies 402 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:14,760 Speaker 3: on economic growth and it's impact even it's moral, I mean, 403 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:16,200 Speaker 3: it's moral imperative. 404 00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:18,520 Speaker 2: Really, it's that you can. 405 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:21,240 Speaker 3: Have a country that's rich like the US, or even 406 00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:25,239 Speaker 3: steel rich like France, and you have slower growth and 407 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:30,280 Speaker 3: you get all these bad outcomes, and so there's nothing 408 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:32,800 Speaker 3: that is more important. And of course it would lower 409 00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:35,359 Speaker 3: our debt, It would solve a lot of our problems. 410 00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:38,879 Speaker 3: We would need much less government spending to pay for 411 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:39,720 Speaker 3: the safety net. 412 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:42,320 Speaker 2: This is why we're focusing on abundance. 413 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:46,080 Speaker 1: Why do you think our friends on the left find 414 00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:49,240 Speaker 1: it so hard to understand the importance of economic growth. 415 00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:50,679 Speaker 2: I don't know. 416 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:56,520 Speaker 3: I think they truly believe that all the problems that 417 00:24:56,560 --> 00:25:02,119 Speaker 3: we have come from the capital system, and they blame 418 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:04,960 Speaker 3: it on the market. I'm concerned because there are some 419 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:08,000 Speaker 3: people on the right who are saying that we need 420 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:12,240 Speaker 3: to move away from market fundamentalism, which is a way 421 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:15,120 Speaker 3: to say, you know, the free market, and we need 422 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:18,320 Speaker 3: to go back to industrial policy and do all sorts 423 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:23,280 Speaker 3: of things and spend money creating new entitlement program. I'm 424 00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:27,600 Speaker 3: really concerned and on the left believing that government is 425 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:30,280 Speaker 3: the solution to everything. But it's also there are people 426 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:34,280 Speaker 3: who think we should actively try to degrowth movement, we 427 00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:37,560 Speaker 3: should try to actually kill economic growth. 428 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 1: How important is it as a way of beginning to 429 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:45,959 Speaker 1: turn the corner back towards abundance and back towards economic freedom. 430 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:48,920 Speaker 1: How important is it for the Republicans to stand firm 431 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:54,000 Speaker 1: and insist on genuinely changing the spending pattern in the 432 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:54,560 Speaker 1: death ceialing. 433 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:58,240 Speaker 3: I think it's important that said they're going to have 434 00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:00,760 Speaker 3: to compromise. It's very possible that they're not going to 435 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:04,280 Speaker 3: be able to get everything they want, but they also 436 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:09,840 Speaker 3: have to once the dead ceiling is passed, to actually 437 00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:13,520 Speaker 3: really get serious about putting us on a fiscal path 438 00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:19,680 Speaker 3: that is different. Unfortunately, this dead ceiling bill that they 439 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:24,600 Speaker 3: just passed is as big relatively to doing nothing and 440 00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:28,000 Speaker 3: to growing spending, but it's just not putting us on 441 00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 3: a serious fiscal path. The path we're on is fifty 442 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:35,359 Speaker 3: two trillion dollars of deficit over however many years, and 443 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:37,800 Speaker 3: the Republicans are reducing it to forty. 444 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:39,040 Speaker 2: Seven trillion dollars. 445 00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:42,200 Speaker 3: That's not nothing, but it's not getting us out of 446 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:46,119 Speaker 3: the woods. The question is, are Republicans going to be willing, 447 00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:49,919 Speaker 3: honestly to be brave about this and come to the table. 448 00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:53,479 Speaker 3: I think they have to go and convince the American people. 449 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:57,240 Speaker 3: And I've always heard that politics is downstream of culture. 450 00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:00,200 Speaker 2: So try to educate the American. 451 00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:03,359 Speaker 3: Peace people that poll that you just mentioned right, Just 452 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:06,200 Speaker 3: try to appeal that their common sense, that the American 453 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:10,879 Speaker 3: people is full of common sense, especially compared to the French, 454 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:16,200 Speaker 3: and educate the public. We can't avoid having that conversation 455 00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:17,560 Speaker 3: any longer. 456 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:20,680 Speaker 1: I think that if you see this as the final step, 457 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:23,080 Speaker 1: it's way too small. If you see it as the 458 00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:26,200 Speaker 1: first step, it is such a big jump from where 459 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:29,919 Speaker 1: the left has been that I think it's really causing 460 00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:33,320 Speaker 1: them to sort of have reverberations trying to cope with it. 461 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:34,760 Speaker 2: We have an opportunity. 462 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:38,640 Speaker 3: Infliction points are important and as painful as they can be. 463 00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:42,439 Speaker 3: You and I know that in twenty thirty three, is 464 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:46,359 Speaker 3: it the Social Security Trust Fund is going to dry out. 465 00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:49,720 Speaker 3: We're going to have to have a conversation about Social 466 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:54,120 Speaker 3: Security because if we don't. When President Biden says we're 467 00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:57,000 Speaker 3: not going to touch social Security, what it means is 468 00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:00,520 Speaker 3: that spending on Social Security will be cut by twenty 469 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:04,359 Speaker 3: twenty three percent across the board. That's what it means. 470 00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:08,120 Speaker 3: We're going to have to have a conversation. I think 471 00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:10,879 Speaker 3: it would be wise to start having that conversation now 472 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:15,520 Speaker 3: because unfortunately, if we don't start having that conversation now, 473 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:18,000 Speaker 3: what is going to happen is we're going to get 474 00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:20,680 Speaker 3: very close whether Republicans are going to have their back 475 00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:24,400 Speaker 3: against the wall. And the only thing that is going 476 00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:27,240 Speaker 3: to be done to resolve this issue is not. 477 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:28,760 Speaker 2: Going to reform the program. 478 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:32,320 Speaker 3: It's not going to try to address it's just going 479 00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:33,359 Speaker 3: to raise taxes. 480 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:36,560 Speaker 2: That's what they're going to do. This is why I'm 481 00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:38,240 Speaker 2: very alarmed when I hear. 482 00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:41,480 Speaker 3: Some Republicans say that we shouldn't be talking we shouldn't 483 00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:45,080 Speaker 3: be talking about reforming these programs. I know it's not popular, 484 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:48,120 Speaker 3: but you know what, raising taxes to the level that 485 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:52,360 Speaker 3: we'll have to be raised to make these programs sustainable 486 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:54,920 Speaker 3: is not going to be popular and. 487 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:57,640 Speaker 2: Is going to kill the abundance agenda. 488 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:00,760 Speaker 1: I think you're right. I'm going to follow up with 489 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:03,720 Speaker 1: you some more on this abundance strategy because I think 490 00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:06,880 Speaker 1: it's exactly right for the country and is exactly what 491 00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:10,360 Speaker 1: the next Republican president should be committed to. I want 492 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:13,880 Speaker 1: to thank you for having shared this time and having 493 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:17,360 Speaker 1: talked about what I think are some really really important issues. 494 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:19,520 Speaker 2: Thank you very much for having me. 495 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:24,680 Speaker 1: Thank you to my guest, Veronic de Rugi. You can 496 00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:27,640 Speaker 1: learn more about the debt sealing debate on our show 497 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:31,480 Speaker 1: page at newtsworld dot com. Newsworld is produced by GAINBIDH 498 00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 1: Sweet sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is Guarnsey Sloan 499 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:40,040 Speaker 1: and our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the 500 00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:44,160 Speaker 1: show was created by Steve Penley. Special thanks to the 501 00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:47,400 Speaker 1: team at GINGWIDH three sixty. 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