Speaker 1: M all the things that it takes to be a
Speaker 1: really good dirt lion hunter. Warner is all of those.
Speaker 1: Everyone on this episode of the Bear Grease Podcasts, we're
Speaker 1: back in the open country of southeast Arizona. This is
Speaker 1: part two in our series on the life of a
Speaker 1: living legend, Warner Glenn. We're also going to learn more
Speaker 1: about Kelly Warner's daughter in her life in movies and modeling.
Speaker 1: Will dive in deep into dry ground lion hunting, which
Speaker 1: I believe will aid us in getting our pH ds
Speaker 1: as knowledgeable American woodsman. You gotta know something about dry
Speaker 1: ground lion hunting. Will also learn about when Mr Warner
Speaker 1: almost went to prison and how it impacted his life,
Speaker 1: including his involvement in the founding of a very influential
Speaker 1: conservation group called the Malpai Borderlands Group. You're not gonna
Speaker 1: wanna miss this one. I think if a person going
Speaker 1: anyway he likes to do, that's the big head to
Speaker 1: his heart board. My name is Clay Nukelem and this
Speaker 1: is the bear Grease Podcast where we'll explore things forgotten
Speaker 1: but relevant, search for insight and unlikely places, and where
Speaker 1: we'll tell the story of Americans who lived their lives
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Speaker 1: from f h F Gear, check it out Fish Hunt
Speaker 1: Fight f h F Gear. We've again found ourselves on
Speaker 1: the borderlands of the Southern United States in southeast Arizona.
Speaker 1: On the lavelast episode, we were introduced to Warner Glenn.
Speaker 1: He can see Old Mexico from his house. He's eighty
Speaker 1: five years old and lives the life of an authentic
Speaker 1: American cowboy with a heavy dose of mountain lion hunter.
Speaker 1: Lion hunting and ranching, you see, go hand in hand
Speaker 1: and have since this part of the country was settled
Speaker 1: by cattle ranchers. Right this morning, Rosalie, that's the name
Speaker 1: of the meal you're putting me on. Rosalie? How old
Speaker 1: is this meal? That to any problem with her? She's
Speaker 1: about seven. It's too bad you hate you do We
Speaker 1: walk over to a bigger bay colored mule, a brown mule.
Speaker 1: So this is your go to meal. This is what
Speaker 1: this name? Vivian, how old is she? Dan, you got
Speaker 1: to be fifteen years old? This is your This is
Speaker 1: the one you go to when you gotta Well, usually
Speaker 1: I'm right differently, at least every other day. I've got
Speaker 1: three on right, regular Bridger and Vivian in breyer So
Speaker 1: and Kelly. She got Rosalie, even Pete and some of
Speaker 1: the others. When when does a mule get just right?
Speaker 1: And that depends depended long But but I'll tell you what.
Speaker 1: As far as being demo and trustworthy and everything, I
Speaker 1: would say like six or seven to where you could
Speaker 1: trust him with anybody, right, and you can. You can
Speaker 1: ride him two or three, but you better be ready
Speaker 1: for a little wreck if it should have. You know,
Speaker 1: they're just not used to everything. And he's mountains. I
Speaker 1: tell you they're hard. Yeah. Mr Warner threads of leather
Speaker 1: pistol holster onto his belt. He carries a three fifty
Speaker 1: seven revolver. So every day when you're just out riding,
Speaker 1: you're carrying a side arm. I do and what do
Speaker 1: you I tell you never know when you're gonna need
Speaker 1: need one for it could be some kind of bombardment.
Speaker 1: But most of these rancher's not Dave. The drug traffic
Speaker 1: through here and all shoulder. What do you never know?
Speaker 1: Sure it doesn't hurt that one. We're now out by
Speaker 1: the dog kennels. In part one, Mr Warner told us
Speaker 1: that he's got sixteen hounds, and he told us about
Speaker 1: his best hound hook. What's what's this Dog's this? You tracker?
Speaker 1: He's a young one. He's only year and acho being
Speaker 1: in on about three three when he's gonna make I've
Speaker 1: it really got high hope for him. In the big
Speaker 1: old athletic dog. He's only two. Oh, he's the number
Speaker 1: two dogs. With sixteen dogs scattered in front of us,
Speaker 1: we make a five mile loop, giving him some exercise.
Speaker 1: On our ride, we can look into Old Mexico. We
Speaker 1: can see the border wall, and I'm amazed that an
Speaker 1: eighty five year old man is still going like he's
Speaker 1: forty five. Warner's father, Marvin, started lyon hunting in the
Speaker 1: nineteen thirties when their horse, colts, and cattle were being
Speaker 1: killed by mountain lions. It wasn't their fault, the lions
Speaker 1: were just being lions. And it really wasn't Marvin and
Speaker 1: Warner's fault for becoming lion hunters. It's just what they
Speaker 1: had to do to protect their way of life. In
Speaker 1: nineteen seven, Marvin had become an expert at what we
Speaker 1: say in the business catch in lions. The American economy
Speaker 1: was booming after World War Two. People began to have
Speaker 1: disposable income, and Marvin turned his craft into a business
Speaker 1: and started outfitting the Glens became nationally renowned as dry
Speaker 1: ground lion hunters. In Warner and his daughter Kelly still
Speaker 1: hunt the same dirt as Marvin, with some of the
Speaker 1: same lineage of dogs and with the same unique mix
Speaker 1: of integrity, genuine hospitality, and toughness that defines this desert
Speaker 1: and the people that make a living off the land. Here,
Speaker 1: before we dive into lion dogs and fist fights, I
Speaker 1: want to talk about Kelly Glenn, Kembro Warner's daughter. She
Speaker 1: has lived a very interesting life. We heard about her
Speaker 1: mule wreck and helicopter rescue, and about her getting bit
Speaker 1: by a lion. Go check that out in part one
Speaker 1: if you hadn't listened to it. I'd like, though, to
Speaker 1: hear her about two parts of her life that went
Speaker 1: beyond ranching and hunting. I bet you won't be able
Speaker 1: to guess what they are. If you're over thirty five
Speaker 1: years old and a gun enthusiast, you've probably seen a
Speaker 1: picture of Kelly. We were always a part of the hunting,
Speaker 1: so my dad and my grandpa Marvin hunted all winter.
Speaker 1: They hunted a lot of lions and deer. We guided
Speaker 1: for custier, mule deer, Hamelina and Lyon and it was
Speaker 1: a busy. It was just what I thought life was about.
Speaker 1: It was either cooking, fixing lunches, feeding mules, guiding. I
Speaker 1: guided from the time I was seventeen with them, I
Speaker 1: did not want to go to college. I loved it.
Speaker 1: I craved guiding. I loved guiding for Custier especially, and
Speaker 1: hunting mountain lions and so and they embraced that. And
Speaker 1: it was kind of a man's world, you know. I
Speaker 1: was a little girl growing up wanting to learn how
Speaker 1: to track the lion and wanting to go glass for deer.
Speaker 1: I didn't have any reason to go to town when
Speaker 1: I went up to go off to college. My grandpa
Speaker 1: got me a new rifle, a parka, all these things
Speaker 1: to make my life more comfortable as a guide here.
Speaker 1: So he didn't want me to go. Yeah. Anyway, Mom
Speaker 1: and Dad raised us and my grandparents to work really hard.
Speaker 1: We always had guests. We either had hunters, or in
Speaker 1: the summer we had kids. So I went to college
Speaker 1: and then I came back and went into the movie industry,
Speaker 1: and I did casting in locations for eight years out
Speaker 1: of Tucson. And I loved it because I could go
Speaker 1: work on a show for thirty one days, come home
Speaker 1: and hunt. So I kind of you. They would tell
Speaker 1: you what they were looking for for scenery and was.
Speaker 1: It was always Western top films, not necessarily, Um, I
Speaker 1: did thirty three films. It was we did Terminal Velocity,
Speaker 1: was Jerry Lewis, Johnny Depp, Fate Donaway, Paulina Poroskova, and
Speaker 1: then we would do young guns and young writers, and
Speaker 1: sometimes it was scenery and then sometimes it was years.
Speaker 1: Did you do that from eighty five to about ninety three?
Speaker 1: I got married ninety two and I kept doing it
Speaker 1: for a moment after that. That's so interesting your family's
Speaker 1: connection to two movies. Yeah, Well, first started a long
Speaker 1: time before with your dad in the movies. He was
Speaker 1: in your Grandfather. I now asked Kelly about a very
Speaker 1: interesting job she had for thirty one years and how
Speaker 1: her presence in the position was groundbreaking. So in J. J.
Speaker 1: Sarry came. He was a good friend, you know, and
Speaker 1: he asked, He called me and he goes. Kelly Ruger
Speaker 1: called and they want me to photograph a girl or
Speaker 1: a woman that lives a western life, carries a gun
Speaker 1: and uses it, you know. So I said, okay, you know,
Speaker 1: and I had gone right out of college. I went
Speaker 1: to plase A three modeling in Tucson because a lot
Speaker 1: of my family, distant family, said you've got to be
Speaker 1: a model because I was six ft tall and skinny.
Speaker 1: That was their basis. After a few weeks of that,
Speaker 1: I figured out I didn't want to be a runway model.
Speaker 1: But so we went down here and took a mule
Speaker 1: and I had literally, my husband calls it my corrective
Speaker 1: shoes because that's all I wear is ugly shoes. I
Speaker 1: had on my brogans and a gun and braids, and
Speaker 1: I was who I was and we took the picture. Well,
Speaker 1: they loved it. Bill Ruger Sr. Was very skeptical because
Speaker 1: he was a man's man and he really didn't want
Speaker 1: his company represented by a girl that would have been
Speaker 1: fairly Yes, it was new thinking. So it was a
Speaker 1: trial run that first year, and there was a full
Speaker 1: page in the Wall Street Journal there was. It just
Speaker 1: blew up and went really good as Austin Nation, and
Speaker 1: the Ruger followers loved it. So you were on. You
Speaker 1: were on a lot of their advertising posters. They did
Speaker 1: a poster every year. You stayed the Ruger Girl for
Speaker 1: thirty one. Yeah, and just on on our way here,
Speaker 1: my uncle told me that he had seen your picture
Speaker 1: in a small town in Arkansas and a pawn shop
Speaker 1: from a poster from years and years ago. Ye, So
Speaker 1: I would do two shows a year, the n r
Speaker 1: A Show and the Shot Show. The Shot Show was
Speaker 1: more dealers international, national, you know guys in business suits.
Speaker 1: The n r A Show was Americans. It was it
Speaker 1: was coon hunters, farmers, guns store owners that would come
Speaker 1: with their family because they could. So my job at
Speaker 1: those shows was to sit in the ruger booth and
Speaker 1: they would put a stack of posters in front of
Speaker 1: me and I'd sign and they tell me who signed to.
Speaker 1: The man would stand there and say my store is
Speaker 1: you know B and B Guns or what? And I
Speaker 1: signed to that store. When they all figured out, all
Speaker 1: those people figured out I was a hunter for real,
Speaker 1: they loved it. And then they would like flock around
Speaker 1: and we'd talked about trailing dry ground hunting lions. But
Speaker 1: it was great. I have. I kept a lot of
Speaker 1: things that I got a lot of letters. You could
Speaker 1: tell a person, a woman who wanted to become a
Speaker 1: shooter and a hunter. She would timidly stand over there
Speaker 1: and listen, and when finally they kind of broke up,
Speaker 1: then she'd step up and she said, is there any
Speaker 1: way you could we could talk about this again? And
Speaker 1: so I share my address and and or nowadays it lately,
Speaker 1: you know, the last twenty years it was an email,
Speaker 1: but and we'd visit back and forth and I'd recommend
Speaker 1: what firearms she should buy. So I coached unplanned. I
Speaker 1: coached a lot of women and kids. Kelly was a
Speaker 1: pioneer for women in the hunting and shooting industry. Today,
Speaker 1: women are the fastest growing group in the hunting space.
Speaker 1: Fist bumped Kelly. Dry ground lion hunting. We've said it
Speaker 1: over and over, and I plan to devote some time
Speaker 1: to try and to understand what this means, and I
Speaker 1: hope you'll join me. Despite your perceived interest in the topic.
Speaker 1: It's a nuanced and important cog in the wheel of
Speaker 1: North American hunting. I believe that the characteristics that it
Speaker 1: takes to be a darned good dry ground lion hunter
Speaker 1: are the marrow of American ruggedness. I'm not saying it's
Speaker 1: the only thing that carries that, but I'm quite certain
Speaker 1: that it does. Gary Nuclem instilled in me the desire
Speaker 1: to be a well rounded woodsman and to get a
Speaker 1: PhD in woodsmanship. I believe that to be a true
Speaker 1: contosseur of North American hunting. You need to understand something
Speaker 1: about dry ground lion hunting. You don't have to do
Speaker 1: it most probably never will. You don't have to like it.
Speaker 1: You probably wouldn't. But I feel like my insides are
Speaker 1: expanded when I talk to people who dedicated their lives
Speaker 1: to a craft, and being a successful lion hunter requires
Speaker 1: the dedication of a lifetime. Shorty Gorham is one of
Speaker 1: the world's best bullfighters. He's worked for the PBR Professional
Speaker 1: Bull Riders for seventeen years and his dedicated his life
Speaker 1: to his craft. His job is to protect bull riders
Speaker 1: once they've come off of the bull's back and are
Speaker 1: on the ground. They basically run interference, distracting the bull
Speaker 1: while the rider gets away. They used to call these
Speaker 1: guys rodeo clowns. I find that people who are among
Speaker 1: the best at what they do are good at spotting
Speaker 1: others in other fields who are like them. Shorty is
Speaker 1: also a dry ground lion hunter. I wanted to see
Speaker 1: what he had to say about Warner Glenn being from
Speaker 1: the Southwest and and hunting lions on dry ground. If
Speaker 1: you ask around, ask very many questions, you're gonna hear
Speaker 1: Warner's name and so that's that's how I had heard
Speaker 1: of him, just trying to learn as much as I
Speaker 1: could and read as much as I could. And when
Speaker 1: that topic comes up, warners one of the one of
Speaker 1: the big names. You know, he's he's one of the
Speaker 1: best dry ground lion hunters in the in the world.
Speaker 1: And you could say, of all times, you know, they
Speaker 1: all the well known, big time dry ground lion hunters,
Speaker 1: no respect and love Warner lends. So it's just a
Speaker 1: household name, you know. So when I got to go
Speaker 1: to his house, it was it was quite the experience,
Speaker 1: you know, I'll never forget it. I pulled in, I
Speaker 1: had flown there to Arizona from a straight from a
Speaker 1: bull ride and drove a couple of hours to the house,
Speaker 1: pulled in in a rental car, and and Warner comes, well,
Speaker 1: Warner was out feeding his mules, comes over and shakes
Speaker 1: my hand, and he's a very tall man. So I'm
Speaker 1: looking up at him, and and the from that point
Speaker 1: till I felt like I had known Warner all my
Speaker 1: life was you know, ten to fifteen minutes. Maybe it's
Speaker 1: just a just a great guy, just a genuine man.
Speaker 1: And it's interesting to me how there's some people that
Speaker 1: have that quality, and in your experience with him was
Speaker 1: very similar to my first meeting him. What is it
Speaker 1: that makes a person be able to have that kind
Speaker 1: of connection with people? I don't, you know, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I really don't. You know. The thing is, I've met
Speaker 1: a lot of his clients that have hunted with him,
Speaker 1: and Warner's return clientele is just massive. Like I know,
Speaker 1: guys that have hunted with him for twenty years, every
Speaker 1: single year just because they want to go spend time
Speaker 1: with Warrener Glenn. But they just want that connection with Warners,
Speaker 1: so they keep going back year after year after year,
Speaker 1: you know, and there's a real rough and tough lion hunter.
Speaker 1: He he once said. He said, when I when my
Speaker 1: time comes to an end and I and I go
Speaker 1: off to the other side, he said, if if I
Speaker 1: look around and in my second life and I don't
Speaker 1: see Warner Glenn, I'm gonna know I really screwed up.
Speaker 1: Because we all know Oraners going to heaven. That just
Speaker 1: describes Warner. John Blosier has known Mr Warner for twenty
Speaker 1: plus years and as professionally hunted lions on dry ground
Speaker 1: for over thirty by professionally. I mean he worked for
Speaker 1: the state of Oregon managing livestock killing and nuisance lions.
Speaker 1: In eighteen John was called to ply his craft in
Speaker 1: a tragic situation. He and his dogs tracked down the
Speaker 1: first wild mountain lion in modern times in Oregon that
Speaker 1: killed a human wild stuff. But his hunting wasn't just
Speaker 1: a career. He loves what he does and is a
Speaker 1: lifelong student of it. He's one of these guys that's
Speaker 1: done whatever it took to put himself in relationship with
Speaker 1: the best in the world in his field, one of
Speaker 1: which is Warner Glenn. I asked John to define for
Speaker 1: us what dry ground lion hunting is. Hunting lions dry
Speaker 1: ground would be without the aid of snow for cutting
Speaker 1: tracks and tracking conditions. The reason that makes that easier
Speaker 1: is if you have country that's got roads in it
Speaker 1: that you can go and cut a lion track in
Speaker 1: the snow at a you know the age of it
Speaker 1: because you know when it quits snow one and be
Speaker 1: you know the direction it's traveling. So those two things
Speaker 1: are two of the more difficult things in lion hunting.
Speaker 1: And you have both of those taken care for, you
Speaker 1: a lot of the dry ground lion hunting that goes
Speaker 1: on in the United States is in the Southwest United States, Arizona,
Speaker 1: New Mexico, southern Utah, southern Nevada, places like that, And uh,
Speaker 1: I guess one or many reasons that would be harder
Speaker 1: as a when you dry ground lion hunt. Most of
Speaker 1: the time, many of the mountain ranges in the Southwest
Speaker 1: that lions live in are only accessible by horse back
Speaker 1: or afoot, so your dogs have to be freecasted and
Speaker 1: be able to start a lion track on their own.
Speaker 1: Anybody that's hunted with hounds very much, or even dealt
Speaker 1: with dogs very much, would know that it would take
Speaker 1: a little more or worked to be put into your
Speaker 1: dogs to have them where they would only start a
Speaker 1: lion track, because hound dogs, by their very nature, kind
Speaker 1: of like to trail things, and many times there's a
Speaker 1: lot more smells out there than just a lion track. John,
Speaker 1: tell me about Tell me about Warner glenn Um. That's
Speaker 1: a big question. Yeah, So I've known Warner for over
Speaker 1: two decades. I met him in my quest to kind
Speaker 1: of learn how to be a dry ground lion hunter.
Speaker 1: That was what originally sparked Warner and Ice connection and
Speaker 1: has kept that, you know, the Glenser. I consider him family.
Speaker 1: They're very close. There's certainly not a lot of people
Speaker 1: like that. You know, Warner as a cowboy and a
Speaker 1: lion hunter and a family person. I don't really think.
Speaker 1: I mean, I've spent quite a little time around him
Speaker 1: and got the opportunity to hunt with him numerous numerous days,
Speaker 1: and uh, you know, there's just not a lot of
Speaker 1: people like that that have dedicated their whole life to something.
Speaker 1: And I might be a little bit off, but I
Speaker 1: think I believe the time Warner started lion and he
Speaker 1: was around seven or eight years old, and he's now
Speaker 1: closing in on eighty five, and that's a that's a
Speaker 1: pretty long career as a dirt lion hunter, and there's
Speaker 1: not been any gaps to speak of, and that he
Speaker 1: was in the military for a very short time, but
Speaker 1: he's pretty well spent his whole life in those mountains,
Speaker 1: you know, in the desert Southwest mountains, chasing those things.
Speaker 1: You've had it with a lot of people. What what
Speaker 1: stands out to you? What have you learned from Warner? Oh? Boy,
Speaker 1: that would be Uh, I've learned a lot from Warner.
Speaker 1: I think Clay maybe one of the big things about
Speaker 1: that is that when you go with someone that is
Speaker 1: truly at the top of their of their game, which
Speaker 1: it's not hard to tell when you go do that
Speaker 1: if you you know, you have a little background in it,
Speaker 1: and stuff is uh, you know, Warners, Warners just one
Speaker 1: of those rare people that you know, dry ground lion
Speaker 1: hunt doing the stuff that we do is a lot
Speaker 1: of work. And in Warner it he still goes out
Speaker 1: that like he's hunting snakes, and that's pretty impressive the
Speaker 1: amount of work it is and stuff that is just
Speaker 1: an extremely good track reader and is just really good
Speaker 1: at reading his dogs and telling you exactly what they're
Speaker 1: up to. And he's a cowboy deluxe, I mean, to
Speaker 1: travel in bad country. I mean, you just don't get
Speaker 1: any better than that. And he just uh, but you know,
Speaker 1: Warner just all of the things that embody somebody to
Speaker 1: be a lion hunter. You know, he's tall and athletic
Speaker 1: and tough and and can get around and and just
Speaker 1: all the things that it takes to be a really
Speaker 1: good lion hunter, a really good dirt lion hunter. Warner
Speaker 1: is all of those. Everyone there are two overarching factors
Speaker 1: that make this hunting difficult. Number One, it takes place
Speaker 1: in rugged regions without many roads. Lions can travel incredible
Speaker 1: distances on a daily basis, so it's got to be
Speaker 1: an extremely mobile hunt. A hunter has to become an
Speaker 1: expert at wilderness travel, and it's typically done with Equin's. Secondly,
Speaker 1: the arid nature of the land makes for difficult conditions
Speaker 1: for holding scent. It's really that simple. Dry ground lion
Speaker 1: hunting is all about scent. Scent on dirt doesn't hold
Speaker 1: well and it makes for some of the most difficult
Speaker 1: trailing conditions for dogs. A good dry ground lion dog
Speaker 1: is a phenomenal creature. It may just look like a
Speaker 1: scraggly old hound to somebody, but in my opinion, they're
Speaker 1: the Olympians of the hound world. In humans are ola
Speaker 1: factory strength is minimal compared to many other animals, so
Speaker 1: it's hard for us to understand how a dog interprets
Speaker 1: the world. I think we've got to nerd out for
Speaker 1: a minute to really understand the currency of the hound,
Speaker 1: which is sent I asked my buddy Chris pal for
Speaker 1: his insight. He's a lifelong houndsman, a former law enforcement
Speaker 1: canine handler and the host of the Houndsman XP podcast.
Speaker 1: Here's what he had to say about scent. So sin
Speaker 1: is one of the things that is key for Houndsman,
Speaker 1: but it's also one of the most misunderstood parts of
Speaker 1: how our hounds work and sent You know, it's a
Speaker 1: living thing. When an animal walks through the landscape, it
Speaker 1: is shedding cells at the rate of about fifty thousand
Speaker 1: per minute. And as those cells are shed it's coming
Speaker 1: out through being there exhaling, and they're losing it that way.
Speaker 1: When they brush up against plants and vegetation, they're shedding
Speaker 1: cells in that instance too. And when you look at
Speaker 1: the composition of a cell, it's eighty percent water. As
Speaker 1: this animal moves through its environment and it's shedding these
Speaker 1: cells either through exhaling or it's called scurf. The it's
Speaker 1: actually got a scientific name. When those cells are shed
Speaker 1: it's called scurf. It comes off of this this animal,
Speaker 1: this living being, and it's it's falling onto the landscape.
Speaker 1: It acts differently in the different environments that it falls in.
Speaker 1: So when it falls in moist environment, it doesn't dehydrate
Speaker 1: as quickly. So therefore the scent exists for a longer
Speaker 1: period of time, and when it falls into dry, arid conditions,
Speaker 1: just simple evaporation causes that scent to not be able
Speaker 1: to exist for his long. Now, in the case of
Speaker 1: dry ground, you know rock, those sort of things, it's
Speaker 1: it's a deal where if the rock's got a crack
Speaker 1: in it, the least bit of shade will actually shelter
Speaker 1: that thing from direct sunlight and arid conditions just for
Speaker 1: for a little bit, and that enables a hound to
Speaker 1: be able to smell that scent that's deposited there. I
Speaker 1: asked Chris about another component of scent and trailing that
Speaker 1: doesn't involve the actual scent of the animal, but rather
Speaker 1: ground disturbance. So when an animal walks through an environment
Speaker 1: or across the landscape, he is actually disturbing natural bacteria
Speaker 1: is in the soil, and he uses the combination of
Speaker 1: animal scent the bacteria. Fresh earth has a distinct smell
Speaker 1: that we can smell as people, a dog's nasal pluming,
Speaker 1: and the role factory is able to pick that up
Speaker 1: at I mean, compounded seventy five times greater than what
Speaker 1: we can. So as an animal walks across this landscape,
Speaker 1: and he's he's disturbing leaves, and he's kicking over rocks
Speaker 1: and and different things like that. It's activating the natural
Speaker 1: world right there and the microscopic organisms and that. Then
Speaker 1: the animal scent falls in that same scent picture, and
Speaker 1: now he is he is able to develop what we
Speaker 1: call a scent picture, and all that stuff is mixed together,
Speaker 1: it's all brought together. What you're telling me is that
Speaker 1: a dog is not just trailing the scurf of a lion.
Speaker 1: He's trailing ground disturbance. He's trailing ground disturbance of where
Speaker 1: that lion's foot touched the dirt and made the ground
Speaker 1: smell different. It's like if you tell the soil it
Speaker 1: has a it has a scent. I heard a good
Speaker 1: analogy once comparing the dog's nose to humans. It went
Speaker 1: like this. A human may walk into a house and
Speaker 1: smell lasagna cooking in an oven and think, man, that
Speaker 1: lasagna smells great. A dog walks into the house and
Speaker 1: he smells layers. He smells the Italian pork sausage starting
Speaker 1: to crisp, roasted tomato, sauce, fresh mazzarella, cheese, basil, ricotta cheese.
Speaker 1: He smells the individual components with extreme precision. If you
Speaker 1: haven't listened to episode twenty two, you're missing a bunch
Speaker 1: of background information that will give context to Warner's life.
Speaker 1: I'm assuming you know how a series works, and ultimately
Speaker 1: we're in pursuit of getting a glimpse into his world.
Speaker 1: I wanted to ask Mr Warner specifically about his hunting. Well,
Speaker 1: I tell you it's it's kind of a tough ole life.
Speaker 1: To be a drunk round, you gotta really like it.
Speaker 1: I like being out in the country course and and
Speaker 1: watching those dogs work good. We're riding to get mule
Speaker 1: in that rough country. And of course we're working cattle
Speaker 1: a lot of there's probably eight months out of the
Speaker 1: year we're working cattle, but we have those dogs year around,
Speaker 1: and if the line comes in and kills a calf
Speaker 1: or cold or whatever, then we go and try to
Speaker 1: catch that line. But usually the line h we do,
Speaker 1: which is mostly on dry ground and that and it's
Speaker 1: called that because we very seldom get snow in this country.
Speaker 1: We just wanted a while in the wintertime we'll get
Speaker 1: a snow, but we do that about four months out
Speaker 1: of the year. We would take clients and then the
Speaker 1: rest of the time, and it's just when we had
Speaker 1: a fresh killed, you know, neighbors wanted to catch one
Speaker 1: or something like that. But that dry ground lines are
Speaker 1: different because you do a lot of riding and those dogs.
Speaker 1: Before you ever pick up a track, you you got
Speaker 1: to find a trail and then you gotta find which
Speaker 1: way it's going. And in snow it's pretty easy. You
Speaker 1: didn't see the tracks. But in this country out of here,
Speaker 1: just play grass or dirt, pine needles or whatever you're in.
Speaker 1: Usually that track is pretty hard to find perspective, a
Speaker 1: pack of hounds already trenilant, muffing that tracks out. So
Speaker 1: you just gotta ride and see you find that track.
Speaker 1: If you're going the wrong way on it, you gotta
Speaker 1: get them turned around, and they had and right, or
Speaker 1: you're gonna see a lot of country that old line.
Speaker 1: Let's left. You thought they were gonna be teching to
Speaker 1: But if you're going the right way, you're in good shape.
Speaker 1: Then you just go on and concentrate on them. And
Speaker 1: I tell you you've got to help your dogs. In
Speaker 1: this country, it's a ruffle, rugged, rim rock country, and
Speaker 1: there's a lot of country looks like that. Line goes
Speaker 1: through that. The dogs can't go there bluffier, bigger rims.
Speaker 1: You got to take them around and yeah, hit it
Speaker 1: on the top of that type of thing. So there's
Speaker 1: quite a bit of footwork that goes in. Somebody's got
Speaker 1: to be with those dogs the foot to help them. Now,
Speaker 1: you were known and there all known, even in your
Speaker 1: latter years here, of being able to follow these dogs
Speaker 1: on foot. Yeah, I don't do that. I can't do
Speaker 1: that anymore. I wish I could. And that's one thing
Speaker 1: I really enjoyed about with following those dollars foot y. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I could do it. I was lucky I was physically
Speaker 1: able to do that for several years. And and uh,
Speaker 1: it's it's a wonderful way to see what dogs are
Speaker 1: doing what. It doesn't take very long to learn who's
Speaker 1: the cheerleaders in the bucket. Yeah. Actually, and you were
Speaker 1: doing this too before there were GPS collars and you
Speaker 1: were able to track. You had to somebody had to
Speaker 1: stay with them to hear the dogs. Yeah, I just
Speaker 1: stay within hearing if you could. And I couldn't stay
Speaker 1: right with them on on the good I could if
Speaker 1: they were just coltrained and not just be right with him.
Speaker 1: But what take out that land movement got a joke
Speaker 1: track and what we call they go past? I could,
Speaker 1: but I would I would take the time climbing about.
Speaker 1: But on the other when we started down, I could
Speaker 1: really smoke it. But I had to be of course
Speaker 1: in those days. I can hear it good I hear.
Speaker 1: And now Kelly has been pounding around with Mr Warner
Speaker 1: since she was a little girl. Here's what she had
Speaker 1: to say about dry ground lion hunting. So I love
Speaker 1: dry ground lion. There's every challenge there. There's you know,
Speaker 1: you have your hounds and you hit a canyon going
Speaker 1: at an angle, you're either going up or down it.
Speaker 1: And if there's a track there, they're gonna hit it
Speaker 1: and they're gonna go down. If it's if they're pointing down,
Speaker 1: they're gonna go down. The hound can't tell what direction
Speaker 1: the line's going by sight. So the first challenges we
Speaker 1: get in there and we find that track and then
Speaker 1: turning them around. And then there's in this country we
Speaker 1: have so many conditions and we always say we have
Speaker 1: more excuses than team Ropers. There's there we're always in
Speaker 1: a drought. It's how much moisture content is in the soil,
Speaker 1: the wind, the heat. Were hunt in a lot of
Speaker 1: warm temperatures and evaporation, and this is really bad for
Speaker 1: scent conditions. That's right. People don't even realize the menuscule
Speaker 1: moisture that's still in the soil even if you haven't
Speaker 1: had rain, and we're used to not having rain. When
Speaker 1: you look at a track, a lion track on a
Speaker 1: cow trail, it'll still have if it's fresh, like an
Speaker 1: hour old, it will still have color in it. So
Speaker 1: the track is still a different color than the soil.
Speaker 1: So the soils faded out and the track will have
Speaker 1: some color. There's so many factors and it's such a challenge.
Speaker 1: We help our dogs. My grandpa and my dad both
Speaker 1: taught me. You get off your mule and you help
Speaker 1: them find the track. And that's and that's pretty For
Speaker 1: other types of hunting, that's not that's not necessarily normal.
Speaker 1: So there's more human involvement with the actual dogs on
Speaker 1: the track. These dogs have to be that you have
Speaker 1: to be able to call them to you. You have
Speaker 1: to I mean that there's some another layer of complexity
Speaker 1: with training these dogs. So in every pack, so we
Speaker 1: only take five or six in a pack. In every pack,
Speaker 1: you'll have your slower moving dogs, you'll have your strike dogs,
Speaker 1: and then you'll have a dog that will You can
Speaker 1: watch them. Dad has a lot of silent dogs. They
Speaker 1: don't do much barking, but you can watch their body language.
Speaker 1: And you'll see a dog out there a hundred yards
Speaker 1: and it's a good dog. You know him. You know
Speaker 1: he isn't a deer chaser, and you'll see him just
Speaker 1: working up and you can tell he's just working up
Speaker 1: in the body language in his tail away. It's wagon.
Speaker 1: We scoop up our dogs and take them to him.
Speaker 1: A lot of times one of us will be looking
Speaker 1: at the track and helping the dogs along, and it's
Speaker 1: by watching the body language of And that's a challenge
Speaker 1: because there's rocks everywhere, and in this country, sent whole
Speaker 1: longer on rock than it does in the dirt it holds.
Speaker 1: You'll see an older dog going along smelling the underside
Speaker 1: of leaves in a thicket, and that's where that lion's
Speaker 1: body and you can and they'll they'll hold, they'll stop.
Speaker 1: There's a dog named catch It. She'll stop. Her whole
Speaker 1: body will be frozen in time, and she'll be smelling
Speaker 1: and you know she's getting she's she that yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: and then she'll trop forward and do it again. And
Speaker 1: I'll tell Dad if catch it, smelled it. And so
Speaker 1: we go to her with those other dogs, the slower dogs,
Speaker 1: because if you don't do that in this country, you
Speaker 1: probably won't get the lion jump how long of a
Speaker 1: track Let's say, let's say it's just an average day
Speaker 1: of lion hunting and you find a track early in
Speaker 1: the morning. We trailed a lion one day, thirty six
Speaker 1: miles and we jumped him at nine o'clock that night
Speaker 1: and pulled him off because they were all give out.
Speaker 1: I mean it was we knew he was jumped because
Speaker 1: Eve and though those dogs were exhausted, their body language
Speaker 1: and their attitudes had a second wind. But we pulled
Speaker 1: them off because we had gotten We were eighteen miles
Speaker 1: from the truck. We we lead a pack mule with
Speaker 1: water almost every single day unless we've had a big rain.
Speaker 1: Water for the dogs and well but ours. You know,
Speaker 1: normally we can all pack our own water. But those dogs,
Speaker 1: especially in the Bighorn Sheep area, it's a very dry, rough, rocky, hot,
Speaker 1: sunbeaten region. When they start trailing. Dehydration is what slows
Speaker 1: them down. First. A typical week of a lion hunting
Speaker 1: dry ground lion hunting here, would you catch a lion?
Speaker 1: When we were guiding all winter, we would average a
Speaker 1: lion every four days. Yeah, that's that's really good. Yeah
Speaker 1: that man. Sometimes you caught one day one on a hunt,
Speaker 1: and then the next time you might have cut it
Speaker 1: on Dave sit x or whatever. It was kind of
Speaker 1: an average we booked at hunt, and that's because of
Speaker 1: the conditions. You know, you just don't know what your
Speaker 1: conditions are going to be. Freezing thine heat when extreme cold.
Speaker 1: We've had some cold temperatures down here and no snow.
Speaker 1: Hunting with dogs is one of the most primitive styles
Speaker 1: of hunting in terms of deep human history. It's primitive
Speaker 1: because our connection with canines is undeniably ancient. Long before
Speaker 1: the modern, politically correct trends began to regulate how humans
Speaker 1: think about and utilize animals, men and dogs were getting
Speaker 1: along just fine. The human dog relationship is truly unique
Speaker 1: in the animal kingdom, and many attribute our success as
Speaker 1: a species to that relationship. Dad, while I'm on my soapbox,
Speaker 1: I want to share something with you. I believe that
Speaker 1: the opposition to the dog thing is much deeper and
Speaker 1: significant than it seems on the surface. I believe that
Speaker 1: hunting with dogs inside the boundaries of science based wildlife
Speaker 1: management is an integral part of the expression of being human.
Speaker 1: To some people, it seems like our society is very
Speaker 1: interested in preserving people's rights to express their humanity inside
Speaker 1: of their culture and in their way, which is a
Speaker 1: good thing. I believe that by changing the rules on
Speaker 1: us about dogs and saying it's not okay anymore to
Speaker 1: use them inside of hunting is to redefine part of
Speaker 1: our humanity. Hound hunting certainly isn't for everybody, and yes,
Speaker 1: there are some rugged parts of it that many people
Speaker 1: aren't used to, but we're not asking them to participate.
Speaker 1: If my conscience doesn't condemn me, and it's inside the
Speaker 1: boundaries of the law, and the activity that I'm particip
Speaker 1: painting in actually helps wild animals and preserves wild places,
Speaker 1: don't try to take it away from me because it
Speaker 1: condemns your conscience. That's the only thing I'm asking people
Speaker 1: to consider. Man, here we go, I gotta say it.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, guys, and for the odd hunter that says
Speaker 1: that hunting with hounds isn't fair. Chase Man, I've got
Speaker 1: a few questions for you. What are your thoughts on
Speaker 1: the use of optics that give a person amplified supernatural vision?
Speaker 1: What about range finders? What about cellular trail cameras, supplemental feeding,
Speaker 1: food plots for white tails, digital mapping programs on your phone.
Speaker 1: I'm not suggesting that these things aren't ethical or fair, Chase,
Speaker 1: not at all. I'm just asking us all to explore
Speaker 1: a broader way of thinking. Please hear my heart inside
Speaker 1: of this. My intent is not that this conversation would
Speaker 1: divide us, but it would actually rather unite us as
Speaker 1: hunters and allow us to see through the eyes of
Speaker 1: our brothers and sisters that live life differently and do
Speaker 1: things different than us. I said all that to say
Speaker 1: it was a long way to get here. I wanted
Speaker 1: to ask Mr Warner about his dogs. If you're a
Speaker 1: hound or dog person, you'll enjoy the nerd out. But
Speaker 1: if you're not, you're being brought into an intimate conversation.
Speaker 1: If you'll listen, But I tell you now, I have
Speaker 1: mostly tree and walkers, and uh, I'm not say they're better.
Speaker 1: I don't think they're better cold trailers or striped dogs
Speaker 1: or even tree dogs. But they're ferre at all of that.
Speaker 1: And they're they're really good catch dogs. They're pushers, will
Speaker 1: take get a quarry and joke and running both. They
Speaker 1: they're fast on the track. They're fast on the track.
Speaker 1: Then I'll tell you they're not really aggressive. Those hands.
Speaker 1: They may something, but they kind of keep this. They
Speaker 1: stay back. Yeah, even on the line. That helps. He
Speaker 1: thinks the most important characteristics of a dry ground line
Speaker 1: dog for the way that you hunt the doors, good feet,
Speaker 1: and to have that instinct to run cats. All of
Speaker 1: them don't like to run cats. But but I'll tell you, uh,
Speaker 1: they don't necessarily have to be the fastest dog in
Speaker 1: the block, but they've got to be able to keep
Speaker 1: that track. Movie. Do you have a favorite hound you've
Speaker 1: ever had that's kind of like that new deal you
Speaker 1: asked me about a minute ago. I wouldn't say this
Speaker 1: in front of the dogs down there, but probably half
Speaker 1: a half walker and a half black and tan, a
Speaker 1: little cheek k k. He was probably one of the
Speaker 1: smartest dogs read but like and he go getting somewhere.
Speaker 1: He could do it all. He could. He would a
Speaker 1: strike on the track, he could cold trail. He was
Speaker 1: good in the bluffs. You got in this country. You've
Speaker 1: gotta have a dog that's not afraid of heights. He's
Speaker 1: got to be good in the bluffs. Yeah, he's got
Speaker 1: all the climb and navigate. That's right, and take some chances.
Speaker 1: You don't want a reckless I mean the words they're
Speaker 1: jumping off the forty ft bluffer. I mean, yeah, but
Speaker 1: you want them to if they come to a ten
Speaker 1: foot drop, you want them to pile off that tucker
Speaker 1: and keep going, you know what I mean. And most
Speaker 1: of them, some of these you need. You need adult
Speaker 1: and get a good rough country. I want to ask
Speaker 1: Mr Warner about a wild component of hunting lions in
Speaker 1: the karst bluffy regions of the Southwest. These lions don't
Speaker 1: always run up trees. Some of these stories might blow
Speaker 1: your mind. I tell you a lot in this country
Speaker 1: you're hoping your tree. One you hope your tree a
Speaker 1: line or bed out on the bluff. But a lot
Speaker 1: of times they're they'll get back in some kind of
Speaker 1: a hole or crevice or crack, or a cave or
Speaker 1: a shallow cave or a deep cave. Sometimes they get
Speaker 1: way way back. We've had them get back in my
Speaker 1: old abandoned mind tonels, and those are danger because you
Speaker 1: don't know if they're gonna cave in and you're gonna
Speaker 1: She's so anyway that at the time that mentioned in
Speaker 1: there telling an hour together and we had that line
Speaker 1: back in there, and we got her dogs out, and
Speaker 1: I said, do you want to go in and see
Speaker 1: the line if you want to hold the dog? She said,
Speaker 1: not that I hold the dog. So I went in
Speaker 1: and I did you want to make your shot count?
Speaker 1: And you've got to It's it's not a danger steel
Speaker 1: as far as the line goes. But I'll tell you
Speaker 1: what what you gotta think about in these caves packed
Speaker 1: in the winter time, or rattlesnakes hibernating because they hybernate
Speaker 1: and you don't win a belly in there and crawling
Speaker 1: and get on the top of the day snakes or
Speaker 1: scorpions or stuff like that, and what you really the
Speaker 1: danger And also when you fire that shot, and then
Speaker 1: you gotta have your ears plug But mind here is
Speaker 1: not too good. But I always really plug them good
Speaker 1: before I fire shot. And it came and you sure
Speaker 1: want to make sure that bullet goes into a bottle place.
Speaker 1: And any hundred knows you can shoot an animal through
Speaker 1: the heart and they can still run like heck for
Speaker 1: about thirty forty yard before the drop dead. So that's
Speaker 1: what happened. I hit the land in the chest with
Speaker 1: three pistol and boy, he just boiled out. And I did.
Speaker 1: I would lay on my belly because the cave is
Speaker 1: only about this high, I mean, and I just dunt
Speaker 1: and he run on. I don't even remember if he
Speaker 1: stepped on me. He might have jumped completely old me.
Speaker 1: But it all it happens so fast and left a
Speaker 1: blood trail right down your back. Yeah, the blood went
Speaker 1: right down and I didn't even know that. Kelly told
Speaker 1: me later, see what did you do to your back?
Speaker 1: I had a string of and I said I didn't
Speaker 1: do anything, and she said, you've getten. Then we figured out, yeah,
Speaker 1: and that's a that's a fairly common. It's pretty common
Speaker 1: for him, the going caves down here and to go Yeah,
Speaker 1: and you've got you've had one run between your legs too,
Speaker 1: haven't you. Yeah. Yeah. The first the first thing you
Speaker 1: have to do, get all your dogs behind it. You
Speaker 1: gotta get them all and that's hard because they're all
Speaker 1: competition for who's gonna get the first bite a hold
Speaker 1: of the light, you know you got to get and
Speaker 1: it's noisy, it's dusty, those tabs are it's hard to
Speaker 1: see it. And you've gotta have a good flashlight. You
Speaker 1: gotta You're gotta have a good light because that's what equalized. Well,
Speaker 1: it changes everything in your favor. When Mr Warner wants
Speaker 1: to tell you a story, you listen. He wanted to
Speaker 1: tell me this one. It involves a young hound named
Speaker 1: catch It. I'm gonna tell you a little story about
Speaker 1: a dog that happened this year. We got a little
Speaker 1: dog down here to show you in the morning named
Speaker 1: Catching and she's making a really good dog, young dog.
Speaker 1: And we went over here in that sheet are you
Speaker 1: and hit a good track early in the morning and
Speaker 1: ended up by on this pretty big little tongue. Now
Speaker 1: I don't out on the bluff, and the bluff was
Speaker 1: probably where he was back down on. It was probably
Speaker 1: forty straight down to the lid and then another twenty
Speaker 1: ft into the big rock slide rock boulder pole and
Speaker 1: there he was backed up on the edge with a
Speaker 1: tailor with a and the dogs were all right there there.
Speaker 1: There was five five dollars and Kelly and I it
Speaker 1: come in and got off her mules and I advent rifle,
Speaker 1: and I can see that the dogs were here the
Speaker 1: linders right here, and I can see it broadside, and
Speaker 1: so I thought, well, I'm going to go ahead and
Speaker 1: shoot that thing before it knocks all those dogs off
Speaker 1: the blood. I am just barely behind the shoulder and
Speaker 1: I squeezed it off. There's two twenty three. I carry
Speaker 1: a little to twenty three and I hit it. That's
Speaker 1: where But it jumped like that and my shot. Those
Speaker 1: dogs got in a little close to the line, reached
Speaker 1: out and grabbed cat just like that and pulled it
Speaker 1: in and went over backwards, and they both then fell
Speaker 1: off the bluff. It did makes you sick. And there
Speaker 1: was to the to the first lag and then another,
Speaker 1: and this was bad stuff. At the bottom. We knew
Speaker 1: she was did I told Kelln she had gone down
Speaker 1: there and the dogs were had gone back and were
Speaker 1: coming around. And I went back to get the mules
Speaker 1: and she got me on the radio and she said, Dad,
Speaker 1: catch it's all right. She standing on this land fighting
Speaker 1: the other dogs off the line was Dad, because she
Speaker 1: had hit right on top of the lion's body and
Speaker 1: evidently it broke because while we were skinning the land,
Speaker 1: oh hook went up hit another track. There's been too
Speaker 1: light and we didn't know it, and they went on
Speaker 1: and she was with them, and they bade it three hours.
Speaker 1: They baid it in another big patch of bluff. And
Speaker 1: that's another story. That dog was totally fine after of
Speaker 1: fallen six. Using numbers in hunting is always touchy business,
Speaker 1: but we use math and every other part of our
Speaker 1: lives to understand the world around us, so it's relevant
Speaker 1: in this space too. I asked Kelly if she had
Speaker 1: any idea how many lions her dad had caught in
Speaker 1: his lifetime. When Mama passed away. We went through a
Speaker 1: bunch of books. She had kept records dad dad keeps
Speaker 1: a journal. My grandpa kept a journal all the way
Speaker 1: up till the year he died, of every lion they caught,
Speaker 1: whether it was here or Sonora, Mexico, or wherever. So
Speaker 1: we counted there's a certain date that they had caught
Speaker 1: their five hundred lion, and he documented that. Then we
Speaker 1: went on through all of everybody's accounts and I compared
Speaker 1: if Wendy wrote my mom, Wendy, if she wrote down
Speaker 1: they caught a lion and hog Canyon on December twelve.
Speaker 1: I made sure that I didn't report the same lion
Speaker 1: out of Warner's journal. We were honest. I had two
Speaker 1: women help me. We went yeah, and we're right now.
Speaker 1: We're at about yeah. And that's the ones in the
Speaker 1: sheep area. That's a lot of lines. It is for
Speaker 1: a lifetime. When I hear a huge number of animals harvested,
Speaker 1: my mind doesn't think of a tally mark or hides
Speaker 1: on a wall. I think about the number of times
Speaker 1: that he had to hook up his horse trailer in
Speaker 1: the dark, wake up at two a m loads sixteen
Speaker 1: dogs in the truck, and the literal hundreds of thousands
Speaker 1: of miles he's put while on the back of an equine.
Speaker 1: And I'm not throwing that big number around lightly. Let's
Speaker 1: do some more math. Mr Warner is lying hunted since
Speaker 1: he was six years old. As a conservative estimate, he's
Speaker 1: ridden on average twenty five hundred miles per year for
Speaker 1: the last seventy years of his life. And that's a
Speaker 1: hundred and seventy five thousand miles and he's still counting.
Speaker 1: He rides every I now want to ask Mr Warner
Speaker 1: about how they've been involved in some meaningful ways to
Speaker 1: preserve the open country of the Southwest. This is some
Speaker 1: legit conservation. Tell me about the Maupi Borderlands group. I
Speaker 1: tell you what that they were fell out here a
Speaker 1: good friend of mine named Drummond Hadley that bought a
Speaker 1: rent over here in New Mexico, a big ranch, a
Speaker 1: big ranch, and he bought it, actually bought it from
Speaker 1: the It was owned by Nature's Conservancy, and they were
Speaker 1: looking for somebody to buy it, to keep it in
Speaker 1: a viable rent and not develop it. And they didn't
Speaker 1: want to sell that somebody that was going to break
Speaker 1: it up before the Aco parcels and that, you know,
Speaker 1: to tell side. They wanted to keep it in a
Speaker 1: open country rent can't operating cataract. And they got to
Speaker 1: talking with the Nature's Conservancy people and they met us.
Speaker 1: They and they said the renters ought to get together
Speaker 1: and and former group to keep this country opened and
Speaker 1: get to where we could buy conservations on some of
Speaker 1: the dated land of the regis to keep from subdivision.
Speaker 1: It's what we've been trying to do so that That's
Speaker 1: what got it together. It was trying to keep these
Speaker 1: retched and retched and not forigger parcels. Very interesting stuff.
Speaker 1: Mr Warner and his wife Wendy, who has since passed away,
Speaker 1: where some of the founding members and Mr Warner is
Speaker 1: a director to this day. Here's the scoop. The Maupi
Speaker 1: Borderlands Group is a five oh one c three nonprofit
Speaker 1: that was started in nineteen as the relationship between ranchers,
Speaker 1: the federal government, and some environmental groups began to deteriorate.
Speaker 1: They work with private landowners, government agencies, and nonprofit organizations
Speaker 1: to help manage over one million acres of unfragmented land
Speaker 1: in southeast Arizona and southwest New Mexico. The group says, quote,
Speaker 1: our goal is to restore and maintain the natural processes
Speaker 1: that create and protect a healthy, unfragmented landscape to support
Speaker 1: a diverse, flourishing community of human, plant, and animal life
Speaker 1: in our Borderlands region. Together, we will accomplish this by
Speaker 1: working to encourage profitable ranching and other traditional livelihoods while
Speaker 1: we sustain the open space of our land for generations
Speaker 1: to come. End of quote. This is a summary of
Speaker 1: what these guys do and have done. They've helped acquire
Speaker 1: conservation easements on seventy eight thousand acres of private land.
Speaker 1: This basically means that private landowners choose to put limitations
Speaker 1: on what can be done with their land, like it
Speaker 1: can't be subdivided when it's sold. Since nine seventy five
Speaker 1: thousand acres of land have been involved in prescribed fire,
Speaker 1: which is an important part of what the group originally
Speaker 1: promoted for ecosystem health. Over the last twenty years is
Speaker 1: the Maupi group has been involved in efforts aimed at
Speaker 1: making the protection of endangered species in the area more
Speaker 1: compatible with rural livelihoods. In cooperation, their efforts on behalf
Speaker 1: of the jaguar, the leopard frog, the log knows about
Speaker 1: the ridge nosed rattlesnake, among others, has resulted in a
Speaker 1: more secure future for these animals, as well as for
Speaker 1: the landowners whose livelihoods helped maintain their habitats. Here's a
Speaker 1: great quote that demonstrates the influence of the organization. Quote.
Speaker 1: Perhaps as important as any single thing we've accomplished, it's
Speaker 1: the fact that this small group has had significant influence
Speaker 1: on the way that ranchers the environmental community. The government
Speaker 1: and the public perceived conservation and ranching. Today, the focus
Speaker 1: is moving away from confrontation, regulation and litigation toward finding
Speaker 1: common ground and working together using the best available science,
Speaker 1: working at the level closest to the ground, and exhibiting
Speaker 1: real stewardship. End of quote. What you seem to be
Speaker 1: able to do. And you were able to work with
Speaker 1: a lot of different groups, Mr, I mean, yeah, and
Speaker 1: it was it was a pleasure, I tell you. We
Speaker 1: were Nature Conservatives was a big one to help us
Speaker 1: get to know the right people, and not only with
Speaker 1: the environmental type people, but the agency people for service
Speaker 1: to bill on the state land, Yeah, the fisher will,
Speaker 1: that service. All of those have something to do with
Speaker 1: all this country. So if you can get all those
Speaker 1: people together and degree on keeping it open and keeping
Speaker 1: it the way it is, I mean for hunters, for ranchers,
Speaker 1: fragmentation we're trying to keep you know, tell me if
Speaker 1: if this is a true assessment, and this is partly
Speaker 1: what I read inside of your book is that and
Speaker 1: this book was written about you. You didn't write the book,
Speaker 1: but the author ed said that you had a lot
Speaker 1: of tact and and wisdom in working with all these
Speaker 1: different people to bring it in with a lot of people.
Speaker 1: Maybe some of these groups would have naturally been in
Speaker 1: conflict with one another, but but you were able to say, hey,
Speaker 1: we're really all on the same team here, and you
Speaker 1: were able to bring a bunch of people together for
Speaker 1: a purpose, which was I mean quite a feat. I
Speaker 1: was part of it. But I tell you we had
Speaker 1: We had some other players, our neighbors. Some of these
Speaker 1: rents were more better that I was. But I helped
Speaker 1: anyway I could, and we would We would have the
Speaker 1: We had the head of the forest Service, the head
Speaker 1: of the billy on the head of all the fish
Speaker 1: wild up service come from Washington and we put them
Speaker 1: more mules. That's where I came in. I put on
Speaker 1: a good mule and take them to top the mountains
Speaker 1: and show him what we were talking about. We were
Speaker 1: a part of it. We hosted a lot of it
Speaker 1: because we had the facilities here in the held meetings
Speaker 1: and also we could feed groups groups of people that
Speaker 1: come in. And yeah, we did wi little dinah trying
Speaker 1: to make them. We we just kind of rewarded them
Speaker 1: for taking the time to come and look. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: and I tell you we got a lot doing. The
Speaker 1: fruit of success almost always grows from the seed of failure,
Speaker 1: and sometimes that part of the journey is overlooked. An
Speaker 1: influential event in Mr Warner's life took place in the
Speaker 1: early nineteen eighties, long before the success of the Maupi
Speaker 1: Borderland's Group, and I want to see if Mr Warner
Speaker 1: is open to talking about him. You got in a
Speaker 1: tussle with one of the border agents. I did that
Speaker 1: change the way you saw that you needed to deal
Speaker 1: with people? Can you talk to me about that? You
Speaker 1: bet that? Just tell me that kind of tell me
Speaker 1: the story and then tell me how it affects. I
Speaker 1: had a pretty pretty volatile temper when I was younger,
Speaker 1: and a lot of stuff. But I did then that
Speaker 1: I wouldn't do that day. I did my butt take
Speaker 1: out any anyway, I don't know, you still look pretty wiry.
Speaker 1: That fellow was. That fellow was out of life, no
Speaker 1: doubt about it. He told me what he could do
Speaker 1: in anywhere he wanted on my needed land, and I
Speaker 1: had I couldn't do anything about it. And I told
Speaker 1: him I thought I could, and he said, well, you
Speaker 1: sure can, so I did. But anyway, it got me
Speaker 1: in a big trouble you one thing about it, even
Speaker 1: a federal uniformed officer, I don't took him to the
Speaker 1: ground and rubbers had in the dirt. I mean, it
Speaker 1: was just how old were you, Mr Warner? Probably forty seven?
Speaker 1: I could go on and knowing about that, but that that,
Speaker 1: of course, that's a felony. Anytime you would touch a
Speaker 1: federal officer, assault a medal officer, that's that's a felly charged.
Speaker 1: And there's no doubt about it. I did it, it
Speaker 1: wasn't and I never be any excuses. I just told
Speaker 1: him why I did it. And I didn't go to prison,
Speaker 1: but I came that close. And also if if you
Speaker 1: have a felony charge, you can't have a firearm for
Speaker 1: so many years, and it affects your way of life.
Speaker 1: Just taught me, big boy, you better be careful what
Speaker 1: you're doing. And that they told me there's some of
Speaker 1: the agents. They had an agent that dealt with things
Speaker 1: like that, and they came and talked to me and
Speaker 1: they said, wonder what you should have done. Has gone
Speaker 1: to his supervisor and let them take care of it.
Speaker 1: And I said, well, now I can see that. At
Speaker 1: the time I was hord I was tired, and this
Speaker 1: guy who was told me one and he was standing
Speaker 1: on my private land and we were talking about the
Speaker 1: effect of vehicle traffic over my private land where there
Speaker 1: was no roads. I just figured that that in my
Speaker 1: way of thinking, right then I had a right to
Speaker 1: protect my problem too. But he was but he wasn't
Speaker 1: a federal I wasn't wrong, no, no doubt, but so
Speaker 1: was he. And well, the way it turned out, I
Speaker 1: didn't go to prison and they shipped him out of here. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and it was but it was a thing that I
Speaker 1: wished I had gone about it well. But what I
Speaker 1: take away from it is that later you became very
Speaker 1: skillful in dealing with these people, and that that event
Speaker 1: changed the course of kind of how you were and
Speaker 1: how you worked with these absolutely. Yeah. And and really
Speaker 1: I respect a law enforcement Yeah I really. There there
Speaker 1: are some guy who had law enforcement. They probably don't
Speaker 1: deserve to be there. But by and large I had
Speaker 1: back to those guys, IM sure. And part of that's
Speaker 1: just I gotta learned, you know that they've gotta they've
Speaker 1: got a job to do. Yeah, And it's a tough
Speaker 1: one thing. Uh. I'm not ashamed that that happened, but
Speaker 1: it taught me a good lesson. You know, I deeply
Speaker 1: value that you can say that, because a lot of
Speaker 1: times negative thing happened to people and it shapes them
Speaker 1: and makes them bitter and changes their life for the negative.
Speaker 1: But what I respect about your character is that that
Speaker 1: you know you can own up to it. And but
Speaker 1: I think it I think it changed you for the better.
Speaker 1: I'll tell you a little I would have told Daddy
Speaker 1: because I knew he was gonna he was gonna find out.
Speaker 1: And he sat there and listening after the through telling me.
Speaker 1: He said, I didn't know as she gets a lot
Speaker 1: of hit a little man, your dad. He was taking
Speaker 1: your side, wouldn't he. That's all the good dad's supposed
Speaker 1: to do. That's great. In closing, I asked Mr Warner
Speaker 1: if he had any advice for life. This is what
Speaker 1: he said. I tell you it. Reader doesn't pay you
Speaker 1: to worry about a lot of stuff because you just
Speaker 1: go ahead and do your best to what you're doing
Speaker 1: and and don't let you get into your brain that's
Speaker 1: gonna worry you. But and that's hard to do. It's
Speaker 1: hard not to worry, but especially if it's family or
Speaker 1: y under another that it just kind of eat as
Speaker 1: healthy as you can and stay active. Yeah, you don't
Speaker 1: sit on your butt. You work very hard, don't you.
Speaker 1: You know it's hard as I can. Yeah, it's not
Speaker 1: very hard anymore. Well, you're I know tomorrow morning you're
Speaker 1: planning to get up at four am, and I know
Speaker 1: this evening we were with you and you work fell dark.
Speaker 1: I mean that that's a pretty long day that you're
Speaker 1: putting in, which is probably pretty average for Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I try, I tell you. In summertime, I try to
Speaker 1: take an hour now in the middle of the day
Speaker 1: after looks or something like that. But as far as advice,
Speaker 1: just eat well and of course leave leave any of
Speaker 1: the substance abuse out of you. I don't think a
Speaker 1: guy needs to smoke, he thought, Sure, doesn't you have
Speaker 1: to use alcohol in excess and then just do what
Speaker 1: you're happy doing. I tell you, I wouldn't. You can
Speaker 1: make a lot more money if you're interested in monetary
Speaker 1: type reward doing something besides hunting and rent. And but
Speaker 1: I love to do it. I mean it's something that
Speaker 1: I think if a person doing what he likes to do,
Speaker 1: that's a big thing for his head and his heart both.
Speaker 1: Why do you why do you love doing what you do? What?
Speaker 1: What is your reward for the kind of lifestyle that
Speaker 1: you live? Oh my gosh. Well, it's very few people
Speaker 1: that get to be out in the Lord's creation every day.
Speaker 1: A lot of people never have the tempt even think
Speaker 1: about what I see during the day's time. And you know,
Speaker 1: I just I pray. And it does you good to pray.
Speaker 1: I tell you what it does. It doesn't. You may
Speaker 1: not get what you ask for him, but it's sure
Speaker 1: at least you know you've done everything you can. But
Speaker 1: they're daring, sure, and created the world we live in. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean to think about what happened. I mean, there's
Speaker 1: sudden the moon and thing that are tied to the
Speaker 1: tide and the oceans, the landscape that a little fun
Speaker 1: born in, that little sucker jumped up a little while
Speaker 1: and go to looking for a nipple, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean. And that's something that the creator had and
Speaker 1: we haven't figured it all that yet. Sequences of words
Speaker 1: strung together in English communicated through human vocal cords only
Speaker 1: carry so much weight by themselves. However, when those words
Speaker 1: are connected to a robust life, they have the power
Speaker 1: to truly impact us. I don't have a lot to
Speaker 1: say in closing, other than I cherished the opportunity to
Speaker 1: know people like the Glens on a personal level. I
Speaker 1: was deeply impacted by Mr Warner's humility and how he
Speaker 1: carried himself despite his accomplishments, which could so easily be
Speaker 1: translated into pride. On a wider scale, I think the
Speaker 1: character and value system of the Glens is something that
Speaker 1: America can look to to remember where we came from.
Speaker 1: You and I can't change the course of a nation,
Speaker 1: nor can politicians or man made laws. But you and
Speaker 1: I can dictate and change how we live, our character
Speaker 1: and our responses to the things that life will throw
Speaker 1: at us while we're on this planet. I'm not suggesting
Speaker 1: lack of civic involvement, but I am saying that real
Speaker 1: change starts in the heart of man, and that is
Speaker 1: really the only thing we could control. I love dry ground,
Speaker 1: lion hunting, mules, and hound dogs. I love everything that
Speaker 1: the Glens have done for conservation, But what I mostly
Speaker 1: took away from them was deeper and almost indescribable. Long
Speaker 1: live the open country of the Southwest and the wild beasts.
Speaker 1: The cowboys and the lion hunters that inhabit with them.
Speaker 1: I can't thank you folks enough for listening to Bear Grease.
Speaker 1: We'll have one more podcast that will involve Mr Warner.
Speaker 1: On the next episode, we'll be talking about the Borderland's
Speaker 1: jaguars in the United States. It's wild and interesting stuff,
Speaker 1: so don't miss it. Please share Bear Grease with a
Speaker 1: friend this week and keep the open country open.