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Speaker 1: Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here,

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Speaker 1: and we here at breaking points, are already thinking of

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Speaker 1: ways we can up our game for this critical election.

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Speaker 2: We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade

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Speaker 2: the studio ad staff give you, guys, the best independent.

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Speaker 3: Coverage that is possible.

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Speaker 2: If you like what we're all about, it just means

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Speaker 2: the absolute world to have your support.

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Speaker 3: But enough with that, let's get to the show.

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Speaker 1: So Mary and Williamson presidential contender, had an interesting exchange

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Speaker 1: over on Fox News Now. The context here is that

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Speaker 1: most of the mainstream process completely shut her out. Now

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Speaker 1: Fox has our own self interested reasons if they want to,

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Speaker 1: like so descent and all whatever. But Brian Kilmeade over there,

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Speaker 1: it gave her a very fair hearing.

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Speaker 4: Take a listen to what she had to say to

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Speaker 4: protect Joe Biden.

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Speaker 5: The DNC has announced there'll be no primary debate.

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Speaker 6: So he does not have to flesh this out.

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Speaker 5: That shuts out candidates like marian Williamson. She's running for

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Speaker 5: the Democratic Party's presidential nomination again. She joined us now

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Speaker 5: with her reaction, Marianna, are you surprised on that DNC decision?

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Speaker 7: No?

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Speaker 8: I'm not surprised. They've been indicating for a while that

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Speaker 8: there were probably going to be no debates.

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Speaker 6: Disappointed.

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Speaker 8: Disappointed certainly because I believe in democracy. I believe that

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Speaker 8: the political parties should stay out of the issue until

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Speaker 8: the primary voters have weighed in, and then whoever wins

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Speaker 8: the primaries that to the DNC or where there arenc

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Speaker 8: for that matter, should support. So yeah, I don't think

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Speaker 8: the DNC should be dictating from on high that they

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Speaker 8: will try to invisibilize any other candidates.

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Speaker 5: The DNC didn't want to hear from you, but we do.

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Speaker 5: Mary and Williamson, thanks so much, best of lucking your

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Speaker 5: appearance tomorrow. Thank you, you got it.

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Speaker 1: And you know, if you watch that whole exchange, she

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Speaker 1: doesn't pull any punches about you know, Medicare for all

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Speaker 1: and like her view very like solidly progressive, left of

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Speaker 1: center view for her campaign, and you know they let

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Speaker 1: her voice it on their era. I think it's very

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Speaker 1: telling that the other networks are apparently afraid of having

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Speaker 1: her on because they don't want to run crosswise with

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Speaker 1: their buddies in the Biden administration.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you're right.

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Speaker 2: I mean, and look, we also know, why is Fox

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Speaker 2: doing it because they like jabbing wid and you know,

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Speaker 2: I look, that's fine because they have a big audience

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Speaker 2: and even though much smaller now on Brian Field Show.

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Speaker 2: That said, the points stand and they're actually very important,

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Speaker 2: you know, to make sure that we have these debates.

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Speaker 2: And the more I think about it, I think it's

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Speaker 2: really sad. I always come back to if the current

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Speaker 2: primary schedule that Biden has in place was there in

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Speaker 2: two thousand and eight, Barack Obama would not be president.

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Speaker 3: It would have been Hillary and then who the hell

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Speaker 3: knows Romney.

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Speaker 4: With that representation and whatever they leave that.

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Speaker 2: Part out, Obama would never have been elected. If South

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Speaker 2: Carolina was first. A lot of people forget that. You know,

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Speaker 2: the voters in South Carolina didn't take up seriously untill

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Speaker 2: he won the Iowa caucuses. So it took the small

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Speaker 2: state of Ioa. Now, I think Iowa was a problem

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Speaker 2: for many reasons, ethanol and all that.

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Speaker 1: The last time around, they took themselves no favors.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, look, administratively, demographically, economically, Iowa was a problem.

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Speaker 3: But the theory behind it of giving the small people

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Speaker 3: that you ants, yeah, I think that was good.

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Speaker 9: It was good.

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Speaker 2: It was a good thing, I think for the country,

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Speaker 2: and he's rigging it up up and down. And it's

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Speaker 2: not just about Biden because as you know, Crystal, what

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Speaker 2: about next time?

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Speaker 3: What are we gonna have the coronation of Kamala Harris?

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Speaker 4: Yes?

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Speaker 2: Probably, yeah, most likely, right, but somebody deserves a chance,

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Speaker 2: or what that the coronation of Pete Budajedge.

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Speaker 3: We don't live in a kingdom like we don't.

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Speaker 2: This is we don't want to live in that system,

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Speaker 2: and yet we're moving towards that.

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Speaker 3: Away from the primary.

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Speaker 1: Not to mention how much have we heard from the

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Speaker 1: Democrats about democracy, how important it is to them, how

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Speaker 1: they're going to be protectors of democracy.

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Speaker 4: Joe Biden launched his campaign daring.

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Speaker 1: To talk about how he will be the protector of democracy.

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Speaker 4: Then what is this?

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Speaker 7: Then?

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Speaker 1: Why are you actually afraid of the democratic process and

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Speaker 1: why are you doing everything you can to short circuit it.

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Speaker 1: You're talking about the re ordering of the states. Everyone

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Speaker 1: can see through this idea. We're doing this because we

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Speaker 1: want more diverse representation.

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Speaker 4: That's nonsense.

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Speaker 1: Obviously they're doing it as a political power play. Members

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Speaker 1: of the DNC admitted outright as much But the other

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Speaker 1: thing people are forgetting is New Hampshire didn't just lay

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Speaker 1: down and say, okay, fine, we're going to lose our position.

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Speaker 4: Yes, they're still planning on moving.

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Speaker 1: Forward, and they are furious at Joe Biden over this.

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Speaker 1: And I'm not talking about like you know, random left

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Speaker 1: wing operative. I'm talking about the longtime chair of the party.

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Speaker 1: I'm talking about local state officials who have significant, significant power.

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Speaker 1: They are deeply interested in hearing from other candidates, and

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Speaker 1: they want to have them to the state. They are

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Speaker 1: not seating their ground and so that also is a

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Speaker 1: problem for Joe Biden not to mention this narrative from

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Speaker 1: the media that there are no quote unquote serious candidates,

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Speaker 1: which I don't know who you know, appointed them to decide.

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Speaker 1: I thought it was up to the American people to

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Speaker 1: decide who they took seriously or not.

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Speaker 4: This is not really panning out for them.

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Speaker 1: They're not being successful at completely squashing support for Biden's

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Speaker 1: primary contenders in the way that I know that I

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Speaker 1: hope to. Fox News also did a poll of the

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Speaker 1: actual primary field, put this up on the screen, reported

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Speaker 1: on this earlier. And you know, given the fact that

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Speaker 1: Bobby Kennedy Junior and Mary and Williamson have been completely

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Speaker 1: invisibilized and smeared and dismissed by the media. You still

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Speaker 1: have Bobby Kennedy at nineteen percent, Mary and Williamson at

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Speaker 1: nine percent, Joe Biden only at sixty two percent.

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Speaker 4: This poll is.

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Speaker 1: Not orders of magnitude different from the Donald Trump, Ron

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Speaker 1: DeSantis poles. So the more you have results like this,

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Speaker 1: and I would not be surprised to see these numbers

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Speaker 1: for the challengers grow give you a majority of Democrats

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Speaker 1: who want another option than Biden, the more difficult it's

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Speaker 1: going to become for the media to continue to say

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Speaker 1: they're not serious. He has no real contenders, no real opponents,

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Speaker 1: and it will become more and more difficult for them

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Speaker 1: to justify not having a single primary debate.

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Speaker 4: So Fox is.

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Speaker 1: Self interested here, but also the mainstream press and the

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Speaker 1: Democratic Party should be ashamed of themselves.

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Speaker 2: Oh absolutely, so yeah, look, maybe we should have Marion

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Speaker 2: again soon. Let's have our fk On and the Mariona. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: we will make sure that we at.

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Speaker 4: Least definitely give them a platform here. It would be

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Speaker 4: fun too to have I was thinking about that.

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Speaker 2: We'll see if you guys want it, Maybe we can

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Speaker 2: try and make it happen. All right, we'll see guys later.

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Speaker 2: Extraordinary bit of news out of Afghanistan. Let's go ahead

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Speaker 2: and put this up there on the screen. The mastermind

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Speaker 2: of the Kabble Airport bombing, which killed thirteen US service

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Speaker 2: members was just.

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Speaker 3: Killed by the Taliban.

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Speaker 2: An extraordinary development, the post says, spotlighting the Biden administration's

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Speaker 2: newfound reliance on a former battlefield adversary to help confront

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Speaker 2: terrorist threats. Now, I wanted to cover this for a

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Speaker 2: couple of reasons. I was told, in no uncertain terms

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Speaker 2: that when Biden pulled out of Afghanistan, Afghanistan was going

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Speaker 2: to become a terrorist hell hole, and that the Taliban

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Speaker 2: weren't going to kill anybody for us, and that we

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Speaker 2: would all be less safe and in oh and also

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Speaker 2: there would be like a mass.

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Speaker 3: Slaughter of American citizens.

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Speaker 2: Actually, not a single American citizen has been killed by

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Speaker 2: I am not supporting the Taliban.

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Speaker 3: I'm not saying they're good people.

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Speaker 2: I'm saying that I was told very few, very specific

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Speaker 2: things that American citizens would be in danger and would

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Speaker 2: be killed.

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Speaker 3: Nope, that hasn't happened.

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Speaker 2: By all accounts, every single American citizen at this point

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Speaker 2: that wanted to leave the country has left the country,

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Speaker 2: and the Taliban has basically let them do so too.

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Speaker 2: On the terrorists front, we wouldn't be able to kill

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Speaker 2: terrorists in Afghanistan because we didn't have it on the

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Speaker 2: ground presence, except we actually killed the leader of al

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Speaker 2: Qaeda I'm on al Zawahari with a drone. And now

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Speaker 2: the person who was responsible for killing our service members,

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Speaker 2: we didn't even kill them.

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Speaker 3: The Taliban killed them for us.

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Speaker 2: It's almost like it was a multifaceted full of situation

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Speaker 2: and the people who were criticizing the withdrawal saying it

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Speaker 2: was quote making us less safe, were full of shit.

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Speaker 4: And they never follow up on that though.

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Speaker 2: Do Yeah, they never do follow up there. How many

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Speaker 2: people died in Afghanistan? How many Americans were killed? And

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Speaker 2: I was literally how many times did you hear that

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Speaker 2: abandoning Americas in Afghanistan? How many of them were killed?

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Speaker 3: Name one, show me one person who was killed. Asn't happened.

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Speaker 3: I'm not saying what happening there is a good thing.

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Speaker 2: I think it's sad, but do I think that it's

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Speaker 2: worth the lives of American service members so that Afghan

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Speaker 2: girls can go to school.

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Speaker 3: No, sorry, I don't care.

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Speaker 2: And you know, I think it's sad, But do I

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Speaker 2: think that it's worth like money, material? And I think

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Speaker 2: this is the best thing that Joe Biden ever did

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Speaker 2: in his presidency. Everybody's like, oh, you should have left

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Speaker 2: Bogram open. Okay, all right, you know, listen, that's like

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Speaker 2: criticizing the tactical stuff when the strategic is what matters.

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Speaker 2: He did it, He's the one who did it. And also,

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Speaker 2: if you support Ukraine so much, so many of these stands,

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Speaker 2: try and support Ukraine.

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Speaker 3: If we still had this goddamn Afghan war going on.

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Speaker 2: There's a pretty good evidence actually that given the amount

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Speaker 2: of material we were pumping in Afghanistan or the military

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Speaker 2: resources and all that, that half of the amount of

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Speaker 2: Ukraine aid would have been actually needed by the military.

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Speaker 2: So even if you consider it on that face, it's ridiculous.

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Speaker 2: We live in a realistic world and this is only

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Speaker 2: a vindication of the withdrawal.

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Speaker 1: I think it's important to remember too that in that

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Speaker 1: horrifying terrorist attack that killed thirteen American service members, it

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Speaker 1: also killed an estimated one hundred and seventy Afghans, so

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Speaker 1: they certainly had a stake in taking out this leader

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Speaker 1: as well.

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Speaker 4: And the big you know, we heard a lot of.

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Speaker 1: Arguments for why the US should never leave Afghanistan, but

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Speaker 1: the most core, sort of like compelling one, I suppose,

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Speaker 1: was the idea that it's going to once again be

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Speaker 1: a safe haven for terrorists as it was before nine

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Speaker 1: to eleven, harboring Asama bin Lad and they're going to

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Speaker 1: go back to that. And to me, what this shows

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Speaker 1: is that does not appear to have come to fruition,

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Speaker 1: and in fact, you know, they are also not happy

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Speaker 1: about isis K at least terrorist organization operating on their soil.

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Speaker 1: So just shows you the landscape is a bit different

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Speaker 1: than the way it was painted by the detractors in

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Speaker 1: the wake of that messy withdrawal.

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Speaker 2: That's why the whole rhetoric around this is so stupid.

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Speaker 3: The Taliban and isis hate each other.

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Speaker 2: They've been killing each other for since twenty sixteen when

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Speaker 2: i's K even emerged, and I think it was in

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Speaker 2: Nangahar Province, which is near Pakistan. The point is it's

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Speaker 2: a complicated place and to try and put us politics

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Speaker 2: onto it was the death of American soldiers of Afghan civilians.

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Speaker 2: From the beginning, it was a nightmare and it was

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Speaker 2: a mess. We should have gotten out decades ago. Every

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Speaker 2: president kicked the ball, you know, kicked it down the road.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's weird. I walk my dog past Stanley.

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Speaker 2: Macrystal all the time, and it's the weirdest thing because

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Speaker 2: I sometimes I'll look at him and all I really

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Speaker 2: want to say is a what happened to Michael Hastings.

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Speaker 3: That's number one.

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Speaker 2: Number two is I just look at this guy who's

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Speaker 2: sitting pretty by.

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Speaker 3: He was making millions of dollars or some sort of consultant.

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Speaker 2: He's got this big office building nearby, and I'm just like, man,

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Speaker 2: look at this guy. He's like, he's sitting pretty, he's

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Speaker 2: getting into his nice car, he's got a chauffeur and

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Speaker 2: all this stuff, and like the wreckage of what he

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Speaker 2: left behind.

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Speaker 3: Nothing.

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Speaker 2: He made big promises and he was a failure. And

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Speaker 2: all these guy they get richer when they leave. That's

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Speaker 2: what drives me nuts.

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Speaker 1: And then they get called on in instances like this

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Speaker 1: by the media, Yes, to come on and advocate for

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Speaker 1: war forever. I think it was so illustrative to watch

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Speaker 1: the bipartisan cross any sort of partisan media outlet, how

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Speaker 1: they all fed the exact same narrative. And it's always

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Speaker 1: like this. The push from the media is always in

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Speaker 1: the hawkage direction. It is almost never in a ending

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Speaker 1: Wars pro piece direction. And that was never more obvious

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Speaker 1: than with regard to Afghanistan. I just want to say,

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Speaker 1: since our withdrawal, I think some of our actions have

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Speaker 1: been unconscionable in denying them funds. Afghanistan is going through

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Speaker 1: horrible famine. It's been very tough times for their people.

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Speaker 1: We have been complicit in that. But suddenly again all

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Speaker 1: of their feigned concern in the moment for the people

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Speaker 1: out of Afghanistan, the women, the girls, et cetera, suddenly gone.

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Speaker 4: We never hear about it anymore.

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Speaker 7: Very very true.

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Speaker 3: All right, we'll see you guys later.

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Speaker 1: Just before actually the firing of Don Lemon, CNN announced

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Speaker 1: another significant move. They are bringing Charles Barkley and Gail

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Speaker 1: King in a show together that they're calling King Charles

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Speaker 1: into primetime once a week.

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Speaker 4: Say listen to know what they had to say about that.

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Speaker 10: All right, it's official, King Charles. A different kind of Woryalty,

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Speaker 10: a brand new show hosted by award winning journalist Gail

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Speaker 10: King and NBA superstar Charles Barkley. It will be debuting

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Speaker 10: on Wednesday nights on CNN this fall. They made announcement

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Speaker 10: just moments ago on TNT's NBA tip Off Take a Look.

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Speaker 11: I wanted to be non political, just too people. We'll

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Speaker 11: talk about political will, yeah, but we don't want to

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Speaker 11: say we're a liberal conservative, Republican Democrat. That's one of

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Speaker 11: the things that is already ruin television in general. And

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Speaker 11: I know she's going to be a straight shooter. You

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Speaker 11: know I'm gonna be a street shooter. And when we

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Speaker 11: got together for lunch, we just started talking about random

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Speaker 11: things and it was really curious that we had different opinions,

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Speaker 11: which is fine, like we want I always correct, but

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Speaker 11: we were like, all I want is people, even if

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Speaker 11: I disagree with them, I want them to be honest

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Speaker 11: with me. I don't want them saying things to get clickbait.

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Speaker 11: That's what driving me crazy about our people in our

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Speaker 11: profession right now, we're not trying to get people to

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Speaker 11: click on.

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Speaker 4: I know she's gonna be fair, not gonna lie. I

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Speaker 4: actually will watch the show.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know if I'll watch it, I'll watch

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Speaker 2: the highlight clips or whatever. I mean, Look, I actually

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Speaker 2: do think it is I don't. I'm not a huge

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Speaker 2: fan of Gail King. She basically drifted off of Oprah

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Speaker 2: and her relationship with Obama to get her position, So

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Speaker 2: let's put that aside. She has some genuine talent. She

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Speaker 2: had a good job in what was it the R.

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Speaker 2: Kelly interview.

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Speaker 3: Oh she did. I was like a little job and

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Speaker 3: that that was That's what a meme.

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Speaker 4: No, I think she's my life.

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Speaker 1: I mean in terms of like as a broadcaster, I

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Speaker 1: think she's a talented broadcaster. But the real action is

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Speaker 1: Charles Barkley, who is no question she's funny, and I

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Speaker 1: mean there's all kinds of things. Of course I'm going

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Speaker 1: to disagree with him on but I am actually I'm

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Speaker 1: shocked that he's willing to do it. They must have

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Speaker 1: offered him a huge amount of money number one, number

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Speaker 1: two in the wake of the train wreck catastrophe disaster

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Speaker 1: that was their morning show attempt.

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Speaker 4: This is actually a reasonably good idea, Like I.

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Speaker 1: Could see people watching this, I could see it creating

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Speaker 1: moments that people want to share I could see Charles

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Speaker 1: Barkley in particular, saying things that like make the CNN

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Speaker 1: audience a little uncomfortable, or that are a little edgy

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Speaker 1: or a little bit off from what the cable news

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Speaker 1: audience normally expects.

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Speaker 4: So I am interested to see how this goes.

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Speaker 2: Oh absolutely, I mean listen to Charles, as I said,

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Speaker 2: as a compelling talent. He's a guy who is funny,

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Speaker 2: he's got He's had some moments before I think we

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Speaker 2: even posted one.

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Speaker 4: I heard something.

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Speaker 3: What was it? It was like Charles is.

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Speaker 2: Like, you know, Republicans and Democrats, like we should all

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Speaker 2: be able to come together.

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Speaker 4: And but he was like at actually both sides.

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Speaker 2: He was trashing, like both sides, and he's like everybody

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Speaker 2: wants to rip us apart. I don't know if CNN

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Speaker 2: is a place where I go to heal the nation's wounds,

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Speaker 2: but I'm interested. Will this save CNN, especially if the

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Speaker 2: Lemon thing? Look no, I mean even in primetime we're

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Speaker 2: talking about a weekly program.

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Speaker 3: They need averages.

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Speaker 2: It will give them some well needed press, and it

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Speaker 2: could give them a genuine hit. But I'm just you know,

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Speaker 2: I don't know if hits exist in the cable business anymore.

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Speaker 2: Because let's say you take CNN Primetime from four hundred

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Speaker 2: K to a million, that's still seventy eighty ninety percent

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Speaker 2: boomers who.

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Speaker 3: Are watching it. Is that really a hit?

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Speaker 2: You know, it's more it's bet it's like less dying

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Speaker 2: than before. You know, you've got a better heartbeat, but

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Speaker 2: you're still like on the verge of complete collapse.

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Speaker 7: I just don't know.

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Speaker 1: They're also I mean, Charles Barkley, I'm sure was a

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Speaker 1: huge amount of money. Gil King also was not coming

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Speaker 1: here cheaply, So your talent expenses are very large for

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Speaker 1: a one night a week's show, and I'm sure the

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Speaker 1: business thinking is okay. But we bring people into this

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Speaker 1: show and then they'll stick around and they'll see what

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Speaker 1: else we have to offer. That's the piece that I

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Speaker 1: don't think is going to pan out, and so then

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Speaker 1: it just becomes a really expensive show that I do

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Speaker 1: think we'll probably rate better than whatever else they're doing

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Speaker 1: in primetime at that hour right now, but will justify

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Speaker 1: the expense, will lead to some rebirth of the network unlikely?

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Speaker 3: All right, we'll see you guys later.

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Speaker 2: We're doing a lot of homages to Don Lemon here

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Speaker 2: as you can see you've got my hoodie on. And

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Speaker 2: what we decided to do as a team is look

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Speaker 2: back throughout history some of Don's best or some might

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Speaker 2: say worst moments on the CNN network. He shall be

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Speaker 2: sorely missed, at very least from a content perspective.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely, well, now it's that content.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we certainly will. Don will will miss you.

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure anybody else you ever worked with Will

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Speaker 2: here were your best.

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Speaker 11: That's how we started.

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Speaker 7: That's how we started.

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Speaker 9: But it's gone down.

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Speaker 12: This All will talk about age makes me uncomfortable. I

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Speaker 12: think that. I think it's the wrong road to go down.

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Speaker 12: She says, people, you know, politicians or something and not

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Speaker 12: in their prime. Nikki Haley isn't in her prime.

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Speaker 7: Sorry.

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Speaker 12: When a woman is considered being a prime in her

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Speaker 12: twenties and thirties and maybe forties, that's not according to me,

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Speaker 12: for what it depends.

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Speaker 7: And it's just like prime. If you look it up,

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Speaker 7: it'll see you.

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Speaker 12: If you google when is a woman in a prime,

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Speaker 12: it'll say twenties, thirties and forties.

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Speaker 7: I don't necessary.

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Speaker 12: So I got another I agree with that. So I

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Speaker 12: think she has to be careful about saying that you

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Speaker 12: know politicians aren't in their prime.

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Speaker 4: We need to qualify it a you're talking about prime

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Speaker 4: for like child or are you talking.

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Speaker 3: About that's a drug?

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Speaker 12: Jersey facts are Google at everybody at home. When is

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Speaker 12: a woman in a prime? It says twenties, thirties and forties.

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Speaker 12: And I'm just saying, Nikki Haley should be careful about

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Speaker 12: saying that politicians are not in their prime and they

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Speaker 12: need to be in their prime when they serve, because

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Speaker 12: she wouldn't be in a prime according to Google, Google

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Speaker 12: or whatever it is.

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Speaker 4: Just google it, Emily in facts.

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Speaker 6: I google it.

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Speaker 4: I can't find me that.

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Speaker 3: I don't know what goes on in Don Lemon's.

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Speaker 1: Br it'sn't like consuming too much Andrew Tate content.

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Speaker 2: But what he reveals is that at the trial is

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Speaker 2: that CNN's Don Lemon warned him via text in twenty

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Speaker 2: nineteen that the cops did not believe his account of

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Speaker 2: the attack.

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Speaker 12: I mean to bring that to the King's legacy and

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Speaker 12: to dict is to dictate the making of art in

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Speaker 12: the celebration of them, is really strange for me. I

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Speaker 12: think it's I mean, obviously, you see what you want

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Speaker 12: is said in the art and I think sometimes the

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Speaker 12: most compelling art is.

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Speaker 6: A controversial art.

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Speaker 12: In large part of tongue in cheek interview, you know,

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Speaker 12: because it's still rogan and there's lots you're jockeying.

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Speaker 7: Back and forth.

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Speaker 12: But he did say something about ivermectin that I think

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Speaker 12: wasn't actually correct about CNN and lying. Okay, Ivermectin is

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Speaker 12: a drug that is commonly used as a horse dewormer.

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Speaker 12: So it is not a lie to say that the

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Speaker 12: drug is used as a horse de wormer. I think

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Speaker 12: that's important, and it is not approved for COVID.

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Speaker 13: But when you're saying something and then the person you're

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Speaker 13: saying it about has literally ten times the audience, you do,

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Speaker 13: you dumb motherfucker.

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Speaker 6: Do you know what you did? You just proved my

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Speaker 6: point continuing that conversation.

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Speaker 7: Well, thank you the conversation. Thank you so much.

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Speaker 6: Thank you, Papa.

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Speaker 4: We'll talk about China, Yes, talk about chime you come back.

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Speaker 14: Oh, thank you much to say on declaring independence from China.

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Speaker 3: So you've been now, Thank you, thank you, thank you.

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Speaker 1: Very excited as always to talk to you. A great

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Speaker 1: friend of the show. A Rebosa from Pong of the

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Speaker 1: Funky Academic great to see my friend.

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Speaker 9: Thanks for having me on. This should be a hoot.

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Speaker 4: Yes, as always.

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Speaker 1: So, you've been thinking a lot about constitutional amendments and

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Speaker 1: what some good ones would be, and why it's important

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Speaker 1: to hold out the idea of amending the Constitution even

445
00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:36,920
Speaker 1: though that hasn't happened quite some time.

446
00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:38,560
Speaker 4: So tell us what you're thinking about.

447
00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:40,800
Speaker 15: Well, you know, I get a little bit tired of

448
00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:43,359
Speaker 15: watching Americans kind of pray to the Supreme Court that

449
00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:47,360
Speaker 15: it rules in our favor and pretending that it's self governance.

450
00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:49,320
Speaker 9: That's not self governance.

451
00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:53,159
Speaker 15: That's hoping that you know, some unelected people in robes

452
00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:57,320
Speaker 15: kind of like respond to your petition. So we need

453
00:19:57,359 --> 00:19:59,600
Speaker 15: to actually solve our problems in a way that's adequate

454
00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:00,880
Speaker 15: to the concept of the nation.

455
00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:03,880
Speaker 9: Right, So let's talk about why.

456
00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:08,439
Speaker 15: We don't do constitutional amendments and what constitutions are. So,

457
00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:13,000
Speaker 15: constitutions are just the way the governing authority declares the

458
00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:15,720
Speaker 15: rules of the game. If the governing authority wants the

459
00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:17,800
Speaker 15: people to play the game, then the people need to

460
00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:19,920
Speaker 15: know the rules, and that way everyone can be accountable

461
00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:22,720
Speaker 15: for the rights and responsibilities of playing the governing authorities games.

462
00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:27,840
Speaker 15: But just because there's a constitution, doesn't mean that the

463
00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:31,320
Speaker 15: people make the rules right. So the NBA has a constitution,

464
00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:34,240
Speaker 15: but that doesn't mean that the players get to decide

465
00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:36,520
Speaker 15: where the three point line begins and ends.

466
00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:37,800
Speaker 9: And the people of Kutar.

467
00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:41,119
Speaker 15: Kutar has a constitution, but that doesn't mean that the

468
00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:43,800
Speaker 15: people of Kutar get to decide are the governing authority, No,

469
00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:47,880
Speaker 15: it's just the way that the governing authority actually makes

470
00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:51,080
Speaker 15: its will manifest, makes the rules manifest to the people

471
00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:55,200
Speaker 15: that then play right. And there's freedom in playing by

472
00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:58,280
Speaker 15: somebody else's rules. You don't have to govern in order

473
00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:01,280
Speaker 15: to enjoy freedom. For example, it's it's arguable that there's

474
00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:03,159
Speaker 15: a quality of a freedom.

475
00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:05,680
Speaker 9: There's the quality of Islam. You can only.

476
00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:09,600
Speaker 15: Practice and cut here, and you can't practice in the

477
00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:13,560
Speaker 15: United States because there's so many special interests that might

478
00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:17,040
Speaker 15: like distort our rules right. And there are a lot

479
00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:19,720
Speaker 15: of NBA players who don't want to decide where the

480
00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:22,520
Speaker 15: three point line begins and how many fouls, And there

481
00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:24,480
Speaker 15: are a lot of people in the United States who

482
00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:26,760
Speaker 15: don't want to govern. They want someone else to govern

483
00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:29,639
Speaker 15: and then just let us play and know that our

484
00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:32,720
Speaker 15: rights are secured. With someone else deciding what those rights

485
00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:37,240
Speaker 15: are right, But if you're actually serious about self governing,

486
00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:39,920
Speaker 15: which the United States is supposed to be, we're good

487
00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:42,840
Speaker 15: at like for the people, we're good at of the people.

488
00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:44,439
Speaker 9: We're not so good at by the people.

489
00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:48,560
Speaker 15: But if we're serious about self governing, then we have

490
00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:52,000
Speaker 15: to be serious about actually making the rules for self government.

491
00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:54,879
Speaker 15: So I wanted to just kind of kind of float

492
00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:58,640
Speaker 15: a few constitutional amendments that would actually I think make

493
00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:02,560
Speaker 15: self government more real in the United States. That would

494
00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:05,520
Speaker 15: be better for our democracy and better for our nation.

495
00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:07,680
Speaker 1: And I romy to you mind. I know you probably

496
00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:09,439
Speaker 1: have an order in mind, but I'd love to for

497
00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:13,640
Speaker 1: you to speak to one we've discussed privately before, which

498
00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:17,679
Speaker 1: is the idea of requiring political candidates to subject themselves

499
00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:19,440
Speaker 1: to political debates. And the reason I asked you to

500
00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:22,400
Speaker 1: start with that one is because it's highly relevant given

501
00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:24,320
Speaker 1: that the DNC has just announced like, no, we're not

502
00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:26,159
Speaker 1: going to have primary debates. We're just gonna annoy and

503
00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:27,560
Speaker 1: by and we're going to rig the states to make

504
00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:30,000
Speaker 1: sure they're the best in his favor. We're not even

505
00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:32,520
Speaker 1: going to allow Democratic voters who really would like other

506
00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:35,160
Speaker 1: alternatives to even know there are other alternatives, or certainly

507
00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:38,120
Speaker 1: to get to evaluate them versus the current guy, who

508
00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:39,760
Speaker 1: a lot of people have a lot of concerns about.

509
00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:42,640
Speaker 1: So this one seems very particularly relevant to be right now.

510
00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:45,399
Speaker 15: Right, So, there's this idea that the DNC is just

511
00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:48,440
Speaker 15: this fully private entity that can do whatever it wants internally,

512
00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:52,840
Speaker 15: and it doesn't the public interest, doesn't have an there's

513
00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:56,600
Speaker 15: no public interest in the DNC, and that is an

514
00:22:56,600 --> 00:23:00,280
Speaker 15: illusion because these political parties have a privileged access to

515
00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:05,080
Speaker 15: our political system, which means even Republicans have an interest

516
00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:10,399
Speaker 15: that the DNC is run somewhat democratically and realizes the

517
00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:12,080
Speaker 15: value of the nation. So we have to get rid

518
00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:16,200
Speaker 15: of the illusion that these major political parties are merely

519
00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:19,480
Speaker 15: private entities and don't have a privileged access to our

520
00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:26,000
Speaker 15: political institutions. That doesn't mean we actually determine the content

521
00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:31,160
Speaker 15: of the candidacies of the political parties, but it means

522
00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:34,840
Speaker 15: that we have as a people, have an interest in

523
00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:35,760
Speaker 15: their procedures.

524
00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:37,400
Speaker 9: Right, So you just have a.

525
00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:41,879
Speaker 15: Constitutional amendment that acknowledges that political parties, that there's a

526
00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:46,680
Speaker 15: public interest in the democratic workings of political parties, and

527
00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:49,960
Speaker 15: that political parties need to mandate who have the elected

528
00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:53,520
Speaker 15: office at least three primary debates at least and then

529
00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:57,080
Speaker 15: you just kind of let the parties at the time

530
00:23:57,160 --> 00:23:59,520
Speaker 15: to decide like when those are you could you could

531
00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:03,320
Speaker 15: throw it to administrative a body like the Commission on

532
00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:05,800
Speaker 15: Presidential Debates. It doesn't have to be detailed, but it

533
00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:10,879
Speaker 15: does have to be the expectation and the commandment almost

534
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:16,240
Speaker 15: that political parties have three primary debates before that candidate

535
00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:17,600
Speaker 15: is on a general ballot.

536
00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:18,280
Speaker 4: Yeah.

537
00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:21,000
Speaker 1: I think the other example where this is really relevant

538
00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:24,199
Speaker 1: right now is with Diane Feinstein, who you know, a

539
00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:26,400
Speaker 1: lot of Californians had a lot of concerns about last

540
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:29,000
Speaker 1: time she stood for re election. Part of how she

541
00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:31,879
Speaker 1: was able to secure her reelection was number one, Barack

542
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:35,760
Speaker 1: Obama and Nancy Pelosi and other top national Democratic figures

543
00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:38,760
Speaker 1: came in and endorsed her, and number two, she basically

544
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:42,119
Speaker 1: hit herself and didn't allow voters to evaluate whether she

545
00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:43,920
Speaker 1: was up to the task and whether this was really

546
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:45,000
Speaker 1: the person they wanted.

547
00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:45,280
Speaker 4: In that job.

548
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:48,080
Speaker 1: That's a real subversion of democracy. You can't claim that,

549
00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:50,200
Speaker 1: you know, oh, voters will have they had a democratic

550
00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:52,520
Speaker 1: choice to choose someone else, when they didn't even have

551
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:55,160
Speaker 1: an opportunity to really evaluate those choices.

552
00:24:55,920 --> 00:25:00,040
Speaker 15: No, it's a power play that ends up privileging the

553
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:03,600
Speaker 15: party elites over you know, everyday citizens, which the government

554
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:04,080
Speaker 15: should be for.

555
00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:04,760
Speaker 8: Right.

556
00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:09,400
Speaker 15: So if that's too much, if people find that federally

557
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:15,520
Speaker 15: elected officers shouldn't have to submit themselves to a debate,

558
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:18,679
Speaker 15: then I then we just have a like, we just

559
00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:20,280
Speaker 15: have to hash that out as a public because I

560
00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:23,879
Speaker 15: think we have different understandings of the responsibilities of democracy.

561
00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:26,240
Speaker 15: I think I don't think that's too much to ask.

562
00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:29,880
Speaker 15: I am disgusted that someone like Nancy Pelosi can get

563
00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:32,720
Speaker 15: through decades of leadership and deny debates.

564
00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:34,200
Speaker 9: Jim Cliburn is another one.

565
00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:37,320
Speaker 15: He just says he doesn't want to have debates and

566
00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:41,560
Speaker 15: so there aren't debates, and that I don't think that's appropriate.

567
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:44,720
Speaker 15: I don't think that's fair as a citizen and the media,

568
00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:47,199
Speaker 15: and I mean as a media person. How do you

569
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:49,399
Speaker 15: feel about Clyburn just saying like, I don't feel like

570
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:50,400
Speaker 15: debating my challengers.

571
00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:53,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I mean, listen, it's it's very possible that

572
00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:55,800
Speaker 1: if he did have debates, people would look at the

573
00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:58,880
Speaker 1: you know, analyzing for whatever reasons that they perceive their

574
00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:00,960
Speaker 1: self interest to be they may stick with Jim Clyburn,

575
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:03,840
Speaker 1: but they at least deserve the opportunity to evaluate the

576
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:05,000
Speaker 1: options in some.

577
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:06,800
Speaker 4: Sort of a reasonable fashion.

578
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:08,960
Speaker 1: I know another one you were interested in, and this

579
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:10,600
Speaker 1: was one I've taken an interest in.

580
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:11,879
Speaker 4: Lately as well.

581
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:14,719
Speaker 1: Is you You posit there should be an amendment that

582
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:19,200
Speaker 1: distinguishes the personhood of a citizen versus the personhood of

583
00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 1: a corporation.

584
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:21,119
Speaker 4: Speak to us about that.

585
00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:25,520
Speaker 15: Yeah, there are both citizens and corporations are persons in

586
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:30,000
Speaker 15: so far as they have willful actions. But there's going

587
00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:33,880
Speaker 15: to be a difference between a citizen who actually governs

588
00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:36,320
Speaker 15: with an idea of the whole and what kind of

589
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:40,600
Speaker 15: rules should be installed for the good of the whole,

590
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:44,840
Speaker 15: and a corporation, which is by its nature like just

591
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:48,919
Speaker 15: designed for its public interests, its personal particular interest.

592
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:49,880
Speaker 9: Right.

593
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:53,280
Speaker 15: So, even when I act as a citizen, when I

594
00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:55,280
Speaker 15: pull the lever as a citizen, when I talk as

595
00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:59,160
Speaker 15: a citizen, I'm not just thinking about my particular interests.

596
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:01,600
Speaker 15: I'm thinking about the rules of the game for even

597
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:02,760
Speaker 15: people who don't agree with me.

598
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:05,960
Speaker 9: When a corporation acts, it.

599
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:11,040
Speaker 15: Is mandated to only concern itself with its shareholder profits,

600
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:16,240
Speaker 15: so when it markets, it's not doing the same as

601
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:19,600
Speaker 15: when I speak, and we just need to clarify those

602
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:20,360
Speaker 15: two roles.

603
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:21,080
Speaker 4: Yeah.

604
00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:24,520
Speaker 1: Well, and this has been a sort of contested issue

605
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:27,359
Speaker 1: throughout our history, and what corporations used to be and

606
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:29,359
Speaker 1: the way that we were treated by the law and

607
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:32,320
Speaker 1: the way that we're understood and that their personhood was

608
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:35,119
Speaker 1: understood stood has changed over time. So I think it

609
00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:37,040
Speaker 1: makes a lot of sense to sort of clarify what

610
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:40,120
Speaker 1: those rights and responsibilities are. You have a couple here

611
00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 1: that you suggest that speak to economic rights. One is

612
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:49,120
Speaker 1: a federal job guarantee and another one is guaranteed union membership.

613
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:52,560
Speaker 1: What are your thoughts on those and are do you

614
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:56,800
Speaker 1: see those as qualitatively different from any other provisions in

615
00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:59,920
Speaker 1: the Constitution. I can't think of ones that really guarantee

616
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:04,600
Speaker 1: any sort of like you know, specific explicit positive economic rights.

617
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:08,200
Speaker 15: We have a pre industrial constitution. We have to understand

618
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:10,760
Speaker 15: that the Constitution was first ratified in seventeen eighty nine.

619
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:14,479
Speaker 15: That's the contingent didn't even come to the early eighteen hundredths.

620
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:18,960
Speaker 15: I think Eli Whitney was born like in the seventeen eighties, right,

621
00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 15: So we have a pre industrial constitution, which means that

622
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:30,320
Speaker 15: the presumption was that all actual members of the like

623
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 15: meaningful body politic were either going to be landed gentry

624
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 15: or independent, independently wealthy, or independent professionals. Right, we didn't

625
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:45,320
Speaker 15: have a constitution made for employees or nation of employees.

626
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 15: And the idea that we are a nation of employees

627
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:50,560
Speaker 15: is true since ninety five percent of the working populace

628
00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:54,080
Speaker 15: works for somebody else but is not really reflected in

629
00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:57,400
Speaker 15: our congress. That's why our Congress is made up of

630
00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 15: landed gentry and independent professionals and it's not really represented

631
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:07,280
Speaker 15: in our democratic norms and guardrails. So and John Adams

632
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:10,920
Speaker 15: actually talks about this because he says, like, look, people

633
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 15: who work for somebody else. And this isn't a letter

634
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,080
Speaker 15: between John Adams and James Sullivan. He's like, people who

635
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:19,440
Speaker 15: work for somebody else, they're not really politically independent. They're

636
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 15: just tools of their employer. So just give their employer

637
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:24,240
Speaker 15: the vote and we don't really have to worry about

638
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:30,240
Speaker 15: the employees, which, in a way, while Ghosh isn't wrong, right, So,

639
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:33,400
Speaker 15: if you were working for Rising and you had to

640
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:37,040
Speaker 15: represent the brand every time you opened your yap, that

641
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:40,840
Speaker 15: would actually change the quality of your political speech. And

642
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:48,640
Speaker 15: so we need to organize and kind of subordinate our

643
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:53,280
Speaker 15: economic system to the needs of political democracy, which means

644
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:55,800
Speaker 15: that in a way that like, you know, a command

645
00:29:55,840 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 15: of control economy doesn't. Because yeah, so we need to

646
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:05,640
Speaker 15: make sure that even while we expect and demand that

647
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:09,960
Speaker 15: our people work or earn their daily bread in some

648
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:12,800
Speaker 15: way that they are also they do so in a

649
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 15: way that's consistent with political participation. Right, So I think

650
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:21,840
Speaker 15: we need to be honest at their economic conditions to

651
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:27,000
Speaker 15: political independence. And if political speech and even running for

652
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:33,280
Speaker 15: office jeopardizes your livelihood and jeopardizes the way that you

653
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:37,240
Speaker 15: could actually secure bread for yourself and your family, then

654
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:40,920
Speaker 15: we need to reorganize a political and economic system so

655
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:45,480
Speaker 15: that people can both participate in the economy and.

656
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:48,680
Speaker 9: Participate in public office. And I know you ran for

657
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 9: public office.

658
00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:51,640
Speaker 15: And had to kind of negotiate a lot of this,

659
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:54,120
Speaker 15: But one of the ways we do that is by

660
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 15: saying that no matter what you say in your political speech,

661
00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:00,080
Speaker 15: you have a job at the end of it. And

662
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:03,840
Speaker 15: if we're serious about that, that means the federal government

663
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:07,040
Speaker 15: needs to be the employer of last resort and needs

664
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:08,560
Speaker 15: to guarantee people a job.

665
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:12,080
Speaker 1: It makes sense to me because it highlights the fact

666
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:14,760
Speaker 1: that you do not truly have freedom, whether it's political

667
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:20,040
Speaker 1: freedom or other freedoms, unless you have those basic economics secured. Right,

668
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:22,640
Speaker 1: So it's a positive notion of freedom. And you know,

669
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:24,600
Speaker 1: and you also don't really have democracy if you don't

670
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:26,960
Speaker 1: have democracy in the workplace, which is what a union

671
00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:30,720
Speaker 1: ultimately is all about. The next two I think also

672
00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:34,600
Speaker 1: fit together because they're both about having the ability to

673
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 1: navigate the systems that we all are forced to navigate.

674
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:40,120
Speaker 1: That would be the legal system, since we, as you

675
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:42,120
Speaker 1: put it, our nation of laws, and the tax system,

676
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:44,880
Speaker 1: since we are so our nation of taxes, you posit,

677
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:48,000
Speaker 1: we should have legal care for all in civil and

678
00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:50,880
Speaker 1: criminal matters and tax preparation for all.

679
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:52,560
Speaker 4: What brought you to those two?

680
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:55,320
Speaker 15: Yeah, the amount of money you have any bank accounts

681
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:59,880
Speaker 15: shouldn't decide shouldn't determine the quality of your legal reps

682
00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:04,240
Speaker 15: or your legal personhood. Right, So the idea that you

683
00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:06,720
Speaker 15: can buy a quality of lawyer that will get you

684
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:13,640
Speaker 15: better representation than your competition is like on American it

685
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:16,480
Speaker 15: should be acknowledged just so, right, So we need to

686
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:19,240
Speaker 15: start talking about so Peter Thel, and I believe I

687
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:22,240
Speaker 15: gave you an element concerning this Peter Thel. In an

688
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:23,760
Speaker 15: interview with a you know, a friend of the show,

689
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 15: z Jilani admitted that you know single digit millionaires, and

690
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:30,400
Speaker 15: if you don't know Peter theele is a billionaire. Single

691
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:35,760
Speaker 15: digit millionaires just don't have real access to the legal system.

692
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:40,400
Speaker 15: These poor single digit millionaires, they're just chump pretty much

693
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:42,959
Speaker 15: for the billionaire. And this guy's a billionaire, he's got

694
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 15: no reason to lie, right. So if a billionaire is

695
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:51,240
Speaker 15: telling you that single digit millionaires are not really in

696
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 15: the legal game, are not really governed by laws in

697
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:56,000
Speaker 15: the same way that he is, then we need to

698
00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 15: actually take that seriously and think of it as a

699
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:02,400
Speaker 15: problem for democracy. And some people will say that, like, well,

700
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:05,720
Speaker 15: you know, there's like legal aid and all these charities

701
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 15: and pro bono work, but that's.

702
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:10,080
Speaker 9: Like believing in magic to secure your rights.

703
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:14,560
Speaker 15: I don't want my rights to be secured by charity

704
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:15,880
Speaker 15: or like some.

705
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:16,920
Speaker 9: Laurier's extra time.

706
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:19,640
Speaker 15: I want to make like legal care in general less

707
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 15: sexy and give everyone access to the legal care in

708
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:30,520
Speaker 15: civil and criminal matters that they deserve at at a

709
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:34,080
Speaker 15: rate that's comparative to the problems that they have. Right,

710
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:36,400
Speaker 15: So it's not like you have cancer and you go

711
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:41,000
Speaker 15: into like an emergency room. If you need a legal team,

712
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 15: you get a legal team. And that's why if you

713
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:46,280
Speaker 15: have cancer, you get a team. Right, So everyone should

714
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:48,800
Speaker 15: have access to the legal care if we're serious about

715
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:52,000
Speaker 15: being a nation of laws to the problem that adequate

716
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:54,240
Speaker 15: to the problem that they come against.

717
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:58,240
Speaker 1: And in terms of taxes, the fact that you have

718
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:04,080
Speaker 1: a whole, massive, multi billion dollar industry around tax preparation

719
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:06,720
Speaker 1: means they also have an investment in like making taxes

720
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:11,600
Speaker 1: as confusing and complicated and burdensome on everybody as they

721
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:12,439
Speaker 1: possibly can.

722
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:14,280
Speaker 4: And then you also have this.

723
00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 1: Vast inequality where again the Peter Thiel's of the world, man,

724
00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:20,000
Speaker 1: they've got the best accountants out there fighting to make

725
00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:22,120
Speaker 1: sure that they have to pay as little taxes as

726
00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:25,759
Speaker 1: they possibly can. And meanwhile for everybody else, they're just

727
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:27,960
Speaker 1: like hoping and praying that this works out okay for them.

728
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:31,320
Speaker 9: We like, we have the standard deduction for the poors.

729
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:34,640
Speaker 15: But if we are serious about actually having a tax

730
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 15: law that's lawful, which means it takes a specialist to

731
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:42,080
Speaker 15: understand it, then we need to avail everyone of specialists.

732
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:42,560
Speaker 9: Right.

733
00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:47,560
Speaker 15: So there's this idea that you could pay accountants. And

734
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:49,480
Speaker 15: you know, some of these tax accounts we're friends with,

735
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:51,799
Speaker 15: probably a few of them are very well to do.

736
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:55,799
Speaker 15: They make a lot of good money doing taxes for

737
00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:59,480
Speaker 15: the wealthy. You can pay accountants to game the system

738
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:02,680
Speaker 15: or to get you the most efficient tax return possible.

739
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:06,600
Speaker 15: It should be an American insofar as if we have

740
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:09,960
Speaker 15: taxes and if we have tax breaks, everyone should equally

741
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:15,280
Speaker 15: as American citizens be.

742
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:15,319
Speaker 9: Be have access to them.

743
00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:17,400
Speaker 15: And that means you need access to the brain that

744
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:20,960
Speaker 15: allows you to, uh, the mind that's been trained to

745
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:25,239
Speaker 15: discern which tax privileges that and tax rights that you

746
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:29,680
Speaker 15: are available to. So, yeah, single payer tax, single payer accountants,

747
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:32,640
Speaker 15: tax accounts. Maybe not all business accounts. I think businesses

748
00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:34,920
Speaker 15: should pay for their own business accounts. But single payer

749
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:39,160
Speaker 15: tax preparers, uh, single payer option for tax preparers, for

750
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:44,840
Speaker 15: high quality tax preparation. It sounds like it's none of

751
00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:46,960
Speaker 15: these things. If you listen to me and you think

752
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:49,480
Speaker 15: about it yourself, they're not going to make our democracy worse.

753
00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:54,120
Speaker 15: They're not going to America democracy work. I notice I said,

754
00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:56,880
Speaker 15: a federal job guarantee and not like I'm not in

755
00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:59,279
Speaker 15: favor of the UBI, just because I think that there's

756
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 15: a lot of work that needs to happen in order

757
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:04,719
Speaker 15: to make our economy and our politics work, and there's

758
00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:06,120
Speaker 15: work that needs to be done. I live in the

759
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:09,160
Speaker 15: South right now, there's like seventy years of deferred maintenance

760
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:10,800
Speaker 15: that needs to be done.

761
00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:12,719
Speaker 9: And like you don't have internet at home?

762
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:15,280
Speaker 4: Correct, that's right, So we could pay.

763
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:18,319
Speaker 15: Someone twenty five to thirty dollars an hour to like

764
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:19,760
Speaker 15: get fib at a Crystal's farm.

765
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:23,080
Speaker 1: Listen, you just sold me right there, right there, you

766
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:26,960
Speaker 1: just sold me. I mean what I appreciated value is.

767
00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:29,760
Speaker 1: In certain ways, I would even call you a cynic.

768
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:33,080
Speaker 1: In certain ways, you're certainly very sort of practical about

769
00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:36,000
Speaker 1: the country as it exists, but you never lack in

770
00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:39,640
Speaker 1: political imagination. And I think it's always really important to

771
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:42,680
Speaker 1: stretch our minds and imagine the things that could be.

772
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:45,000
Speaker 1: And when you lay all of these you know, potential

773
00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:46,960
Speaker 1: amendments down, every single one of them makes sense. And

774
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:48,640
Speaker 1: like you said, they're certainly not going to make the

775
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 1: democracy worse, and they definitely have a shot at actually

776
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:54,720
Speaker 1: improving the quality of our democracy so that more closely

777
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:56,319
Speaker 1: approximates in actual democracy.

778
00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:57,600
Speaker 9: Can I talk about one more?

779
00:36:57,880 --> 00:36:58,160
Speaker 3: Sure?

780
00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:01,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll take care for all, elder care for all,

781
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:02,560
Speaker 1: older care.

782
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:05,239
Speaker 15: For all, look man like we decided that we have

783
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:08,280
Speaker 15: a quality of elder care system with a social security system.

784
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:10,520
Speaker 15: Insofar as you know, one way to make sure that

785
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:12,960
Speaker 15: the elderly are doing well is to actually give them money.

786
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:15,279
Speaker 15: They can spend it as they want. But another way

787
00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:18,399
Speaker 15: is to make sure that they actually have full time

788
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:23,000
Speaker 15: like the care that they need. And caring for an

789
00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:28,239
Speaker 15: elderly loved one actually kind of distorts the freedom of

790
00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:32,880
Speaker 15: the caregiver, right, Like, if your parent or loved one

791
00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:36,560
Speaker 15: needs full time care, you can't really participate in politics,

792
00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:38,759
Speaker 15: you can't really participate in civil society.

793
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:40,720
Speaker 9: So if we're going to actually secure.

794
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:45,040
Speaker 15: Everyone like the blessings of liberty, like the Constitution supposed

795
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:47,600
Speaker 15: to do, we need to start talking about elder care

796
00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:49,480
Speaker 15: for all and sim with child care for all.

797
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:52,880
Speaker 4: Yeah right, I agree with both of those.

798
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:56,600
Speaker 15: And also children should not be punished because they come

799
00:37:56,640 --> 00:38:01,200
Speaker 15: from poor parents. The USDA every year, every other year

800
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:04,280
Speaker 15: comes out with a survey about how much it costs

801
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:06,719
Speaker 15: to raise a middle class child. And apparently, after you

802
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:10,000
Speaker 15: take away childcare and elder after you take away childcare,

803
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:12,160
Speaker 15: it's about nine hundred bucks a month. Let's just give

804
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:17,520
Speaker 15: every parent nine hundred dollars a month per kid. That's

805
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:19,640
Speaker 15: like and you put that with a federal job guarantee

806
00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:21,400
Speaker 15: which is supposed to take care of the parent, and

807
00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:26,200
Speaker 15: that means every kid is not punished materially for just

808
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:28,480
Speaker 15: coming from poor parents. And that means they could actually

809
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:33,280
Speaker 15: like participate in the quality of enrichment activities that will

810
00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:35,359
Speaker 15: lead to a robust citizenship.

811
00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:38,040
Speaker 4: I think that is all very well said.

812
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:41,520
Speaker 15: Yeah, we can link it to the USDA's own report

813
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:44,799
Speaker 15: about what middle class parents spend on their children's.

814
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:47,680
Speaker 1: And then pagets too inflation so that it continues to

815
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:49,840
Speaker 1: just autoescalate and you don't have to depend on a

816
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:52,920
Speaker 1: political class to increase it. I think that's all a

817
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:55,440
Speaker 1: very good idea. I Army is always great to have you.

818
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:56,520
Speaker 1: It's always great to speak with you.

819
00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:59,319
Speaker 9: Thank you so much, Thank you for having me.

820
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:00,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, our pleasure.

821
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:07,120
Speaker 13: I'm Matt Stoler, author of monopoly focused Substack newsletter Big

822
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:10,000
Speaker 13: and an anti trust policy analyst. They have a great

823
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:13,080
Speaker 13: segment for you today on this Big Breakdown. It's about

824
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:17,880
Speaker 13: how the giant credit reporting bureau Equifax, through its monopoly power,

825
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:21,480
Speaker 13: has become a firm that sells what are effectively tax

826
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:26,799
Speaker 13: records of any American to pretty much anyone who wants them. Okay,

827
00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:29,520
Speaker 13: The movie The Big Short is about fraud during the

828
00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:33,239
Speaker 13: Great Financial Crisis. In it, there's a famous scene where

829
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:36,279
Speaker 13: fund managers betting on a housing collapse are trying to

830
00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 13: learn about the Florida housing market and are interviewing some

831
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:42,319
Speaker 13: frat boy type Florida real estate agents. The agents keep

832
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:46,080
Speaker 13: discussing their self serving and illegal behavior like falsifying paperwork

833
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:49,840
Speaker 13: or selling homes to people who knowingly can't pay back mortgages.

834
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:53,240
Speaker 13: At a certain point, the main characters when his fund

835
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:57,440
Speaker 13: manager asks his colleagues about these guys, why are they confessing?

836
00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:01,239
Speaker 13: And there's a great response. Here's the scene.

837
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 7: I don't get it.

838
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:03,600
Speaker 6: Why are they confessing.

839
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:06,960
Speaker 7: They're not confessing, they're bragging.

840
00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:10,120
Speaker 6: Not confessing, but bragging.

841
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:12,839
Speaker 13: So these people weren't just breaking the law, but saw

842
00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:15,680
Speaker 13: the law itself as irrelevant. It was a true story,

843
00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:18,520
Speaker 13: or mostly true, and it continues to be a true

844
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:22,200
Speaker 13: story in many white collar areas so late last year,

845
00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:25,280
Speaker 13: the CEO of Equifax Mark Begor presented at a Golden

846
00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:28,600
Speaker 13: Sex conference for investors and openly told them how much

847
00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:31,440
Speaker 13: market power his firm has in the business of selling

848
00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:34,680
Speaker 13: what's called income verification services to creditors.

849
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:35,800
Speaker 6: Let's take a listen.

850
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:41,240
Speaker 16: We have meaningful pricing power in that business. I wouldn't

851
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:45,719
Speaker 16: put it in the same zip code as Mico, but

852
00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:47,719
Speaker 16: we have a very un data asset, just like they

853
00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:51,160
Speaker 16: have with the micro score. Only Equifax has that employment data.

854
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:54,000
Speaker 16: So you know, we bring price to the marketplace every year.

855
00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:57,000
Speaker 16: We've already got our January one, twenty twenty three pricing

856
00:40:57,000 --> 00:40:59,359
Speaker 16: increases in the market. They went in a couple months ago,

857
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:01,640
Speaker 16: so we know what price is going to be in

858
00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:04,720
Speaker 16: twenty twenty three. And we have more pricing power here.

859
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:05,920
Speaker 6: Than we have in other businesses.

860
00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:09,160
Speaker 16: And if you think about four percent from price and product,

861
00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:11,719
Speaker 16: decide how you split the four I won't do it

862
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:15,239
Speaker 16: for you, but you know we have an ability to

863
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:16,800
Speaker 16: grow price well in excess a BDP.

864
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:20,440
Speaker 13: We have meaningful pricing power. Only Equifax has that income

865
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:26,839
Speaker 13: and employment data. That's market power, that's monopoly power. Now

866
00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:29,480
Speaker 13: a CEO should know better than to confess to monopolization.

867
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:32,960
Speaker 13: Only it seems as if he wasn't confessing, he was bragging.

868
00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:38,120
Speaker 13: So why would a CEO brag to investors? Probably because

869
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:42,120
Speaker 13: he can. I mean, Equifax's controversial behavior is near legendary.

870
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:45,200
Speaker 13: The firm is an important credit bureau and credit data

871
00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:47,040
Speaker 13: is exactly what we wouldn't want to fall into the

872
00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:49,759
Speaker 13: hands of hackers who could then easily use it to

873
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:53,080
Speaker 13: engage an identity theft on mass. But in twenty seventeen,

874
00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:56,160
Speaker 13: Equifax had one of the biggest data breaches in history

875
00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:58,960
Speaker 13: when it accidentally exposed the personal data of one hundred

876
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:02,200
Speaker 13: and forty seven million people, so that's social security numbers, names, etc.

877
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:04,840
Speaker 6: Etc. The Federal Trade Commission find.

878
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:06,960
Speaker 13: The company more than five hundred and seventy five million dollars,

879
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:10,040
Speaker 13: and the CEO, CIO, and chief security officer were all

880
00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:12,759
Speaker 13: forced out. But the firm itself didn't suffer any long

881
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:15,960
Speaker 13: term damage. And that's because it's a monopoly. There's nowhere

882
00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:17,680
Speaker 13: else to go. People may not like it, but they

883
00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:22,959
Speaker 13: have to use it, okay, so there's no real consequences

884
00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:26,880
Speaker 13: to the company. And let's go back to the product

885
00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:29,520
Speaker 13: that Bager told investors about at the Golden Sex Confact,

886
00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:32,080
Speaker 13: which is called the work number. That's a business line

887
00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:34,560
Speaker 13: that bundles data about the incomes of hundreds of millions

888
00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:37,080
Speaker 13: of people like you and me and sells it to

889
00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:41,920
Speaker 13: interested parties like lenders, landlords, employers, government agencies. Payroll in

890
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:44,320
Speaker 13: data is by some estimates, a ten billion dollar market

891
00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:48,319
Speaker 13: and now brings in a majority of the firm's domestic revenue. Now,

892
00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:50,800
Speaker 13: Equifects used to just track whether we pay our debts.

893
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:52,960
Speaker 13: They would sell that information to lenders. That's what a

894
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:55,319
Speaker 13: credit bureau does. But over the last ten years it

895
00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:58,520
Speaker 13: has transformed itself into a sort of tax information agency,

896
00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:02,640
Speaker 13: which sells data about our salary and income and workplace

897
00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:05,800
Speaker 13: to third parties. It's a better business than just credit

898
00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:08,920
Speaker 13: data because while three firms have information about whether you

899
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:13,120
Speaker 13: pay back your credit card, only Equifax has complete information

900
00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:16,120
Speaker 13: about where you work and your salary. And a monopoly,

901
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:21,800
Speaker 13: as the CEO bragged, is better than an oligopoly. Now, first,

902
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:26,120
Speaker 13: let's start with why this business exists. Sharing information about

903
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:28,319
Speaker 13: where you work and what you make is something we

904
00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:29,440
Speaker 13: all need to do.

905
00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:30,240
Speaker 6: On occasion.

906
00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:32,759
Speaker 13: If a bank or an auto dealer wants to lend

907
00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:35,200
Speaker 13: someone money to buy a home or car, that bank

908
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:38,319
Speaker 13: or creditor needs a verification that the person works where

909
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:40,880
Speaker 13: he or she says he works and makes the income

910
00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:44,000
Speaker 13: he or she says they make. Now, sometimes a potential

911
00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:46,799
Speaker 13: employer or landlord needs to check work history, or a

912
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:50,200
Speaker 13: public agency needs to ensure that someone qualifies for government

913
00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:53,400
Speaker 13: assistance or that, or they have to update someone's immigration status.

914
00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:57,280
Speaker 13: All of these things require that kind of data. Well,

915
00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:00,600
Speaker 13: how do these third parties verify this data? Lawyers don't

916
00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:03,440
Speaker 13: like it when their human resource departments are constantly getting

917
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:06,160
Speaker 13: requests from lenders about their employees and their salaries and

918
00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:08,600
Speaker 13: so on and so forth. So for years, employers have

919
00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:11,759
Speaker 13: been sending data on this to Equifax. If you're trying

920
00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:14,640
Speaker 13: to find out someone's work history and income, it's pretty

921
00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:17,520
Speaker 13: likely at this point that Equifax has it. And we're

922
00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:19,879
Speaker 13: not just talking about the data that the irs has.

923
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:22,880
Speaker 13: We're talking about data on pay for every payroll cycle,

924
00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:25,600
Speaker 13: your overtime amount to start, an end date for your job,

925
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:28,680
Speaker 13: your title, your healthcare provider, whether you have dental insurance,

926
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:31,200
Speaker 13: if you've ever filed an unemployment claim, and so on

927
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:35,280
Speaker 13: and so forth. Now, this whole income and verification business

928
00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:37,960
Speaker 13: line didn't start out with Equifax. It started out with

929
00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:40,960
Speaker 13: a company called Talks, started in the nineteen seventies, but

930
00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:44,439
Speaker 13: Equifax bought it in two thousand and seven, and along

931
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:46,600
Speaker 13: with a bunch of companies in this space, Equifax and

932
00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:50,560
Speaker 13: Talks continue to buy up companies. Now, Talks had signed

933
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:53,799
Speaker 13: contracts with most big businesses Fortune five hundred businesses, as

934
00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:56,000
Speaker 13: well as governments, universities, and so on and so forth

935
00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:59,000
Speaker 13: to get data. But part of these contracts, we're not

936
00:44:59,120 --> 00:45:01,719
Speaker 13: just to get the data, but to stop these companies

937
00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:05,680
Speaker 13: from sharing their data with other brokers. So now that

938
00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:08,120
Speaker 13: was to exclude rivals, not some privacy things. So the

939
00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:11,880
Speaker 13: story here is monopolization. And I'm not just saying this.

940
00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:16,120
Speaker 13: Fifteen years ago, the Federal Trade Commission actually sued Equifax

941
00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:19,480
Speaker 13: Talx's business for antitrust violations, and that was because of

942
00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:21,840
Speaker 13: the contractual arrangements that I just described, the ones that

943
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:25,400
Speaker 13: excluded rivals from the market. Only people didn't really notice

944
00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:28,919
Speaker 13: because the income verification business was a side show back

945
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:33,280
Speaker 13: then to Equifax's main credit reporting revenue line. Today, however,

946
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:36,319
Speaker 13: Equifax is now a monopoly income verifier and it's got

947
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:39,360
Speaker 13: kind of a side hustle in the credit information business.

948
00:45:39,719 --> 00:45:42,719
Speaker 13: Now there are network effects here. The more data Equifax

949
00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:45,080
Speaker 13: gets from employers, the more likely it is to be

950
00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:47,719
Speaker 13: the place that lenders and government agencies seek to do

951
00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:51,400
Speaker 13: income verification. Now, of course, the employees don't know that

952
00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:54,880
Speaker 13: their own data is being sold by their employers, and

953
00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:58,320
Speaker 13: even small businesses who use payroll services like ADP don't

954
00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:01,160
Speaker 13: realize their data is being so ADP sells it all.

955
00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:03,480
Speaker 13: A lot of third party services sell that data. Now,

956
00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:06,160
Speaker 13: small businesses can opt out, but they actually have to

957
00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:08,319
Speaker 13: know that this data is being sold, and then they

958
00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:10,719
Speaker 13: have to tell their payroll provider, which they often don't

959
00:46:10,719 --> 00:46:12,080
Speaker 13: know that they should or could do.

960
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:14,920
Speaker 6: Big companies they just make money, you know.

961
00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:17,200
Speaker 13: JP Morgan just sells its data and they get money

962
00:46:17,239 --> 00:46:20,319
Speaker 13: in and so they've turned human resources into into not

963
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:23,000
Speaker 13: a cost center but a revenue generator. Now, the net

964
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:25,880
Speaker 13: effect of these arrangements, at least in terms of the

965
00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:29,040
Speaker 13: income verification market, is that smaller players in the market

966
00:46:29,080 --> 00:46:31,640
Speaker 13: are boxed out. If you're doing income verification and you

967
00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:35,320
Speaker 13: put someone's social Security number into Equifax, you have roughly

968
00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:38,319
Speaker 13: fifty to seventy percent chance of getting a successful hit,

969
00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:41,279
Speaker 13: a successful conversion finding out whether that person works where

970
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:44,280
Speaker 13: they say they work for other brokers, it's much lower,

971
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:48,719
Speaker 13: maybe thirty percent. So if you need the information you basically,

972
00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:50,320
Speaker 13: if you're credit or your lender and you want to

973
00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:52,719
Speaker 13: find something out, you have to use Equifax. Now on

974
00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:56,240
Speaker 13: the other side of the market, right, Equifax has also

975
00:46:56,480 --> 00:46:59,560
Speaker 13: erected barriers to entry. If you're a frequent buyer of

976
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:04,200
Speaker 13: income verification or income or employment data, equifecs will offer

977
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:06,880
Speaker 13: a loyalty discount if you move all your business to

978
00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:10,160
Speaker 13: the work number. So a loyalty discount sound sounds nice,

979
00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:13,120
Speaker 13: but it's basically just a mechanism to exclude rivals. So

980
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:17,239
Speaker 13: one background check provider called swift Check, explained that Equifax

981
00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:20,560
Speaker 13: told them that, quote, if our organization performs the work

982
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:25,680
Speaker 13: number verification on every employment verification, a discount is offered.

983
00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:29,240
Speaker 13: In other words, if you use a rival, your price

984
00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:33,400
Speaker 13: goes up. That's classic monopolization. That's standard oil and the railroads.

985
00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:35,000
Speaker 13: I mean, you go back one hundred years for this.

986
00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:38,560
Speaker 13: Now we can see this market power at work in

987
00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:42,200
Speaker 13: the pricing. As their CEO noted in December, Equifax has

988
00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:45,880
Speaker 13: been raising prices on lenders substantially for years. So in

989
00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:48,920
Speaker 13: twenty seventeen, the price for a record for just to

990
00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:51,880
Speaker 13: look up someone was twenty dollars. In twenty twenty, it

991
00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:54,880
Speaker 13: was forty one dollars and ninety five cents, and today

992
00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:57,560
Speaker 13: it lists its price at fifty four dollars and ninety

993
00:47:57,560 --> 00:47:59,839
Speaker 13: five cents for a record of where you currently work.

994
00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:01,680
Speaker 6: This is their public prices.

995
00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:03,880
Speaker 13: They have lots of other prices, so we're not totally

996
00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:07,880
Speaker 13: sure what they charge. It's likely much more to some customers,

997
00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:10,879
Speaker 13: but it can potentially be up to two hundred dollars

998
00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:12,720
Speaker 13: for records with more historical information.

999
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:13,520
Speaker 6: Now, to give you a.

1000
00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:16,759
Speaker 13: Sense of these price hikes, that's an inflation rate of

1001
00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:20,440
Speaker 13: twenty five percent. That's why the CEO was bragging about

1002
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:23,919
Speaker 13: being able to raise prices faster than GDP growth. Now

1003
00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:27,000
Speaker 13: it goes way beyond price. That's just the harms to

1004
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:29,480
Speaker 13: the lenders and the ultimately they pass that down to

1005
00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:30,000
Speaker 13: the people.

1006
00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:31,800
Speaker 6: Who are borrowing money.

1007
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:35,520
Speaker 13: The work number can according to the government, this is

1008
00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:38,520
Speaker 13: where it gets kind of creepy. Help determine quote unquote

1009
00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:43,120
Speaker 13: an applicant's social service eligibility or quote unquote informed child

1010
00:48:43,160 --> 00:48:48,960
Speaker 13: support collections and enforcement. There are also often errors and

1011
00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:51,680
Speaker 13: getting your own data from Equifax and getting them to

1012
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:54,520
Speaker 13: change data so that it's right can be difficult. It's

1013
00:48:54,560 --> 00:48:57,840
Speaker 13: also a system that is prone to abuse. So Apple

1014
00:48:57,920 --> 00:49:00,600
Speaker 13: told the work number that every worker who left was

1015
00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:05,240
Speaker 13: automatically given the title quote unquote associate, regardless of whether

1016
00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:08,400
Speaker 13: they were a top engineer or salesperson or whatever. And

1017
00:49:08,440 --> 00:49:11,160
Speaker 13: according to one of these people who left Apple, the

1018
00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:15,280
Speaker 13: error quote delayed the hiring prospects process at a prospective

1019
00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:18,520
Speaker 13: employer by nearly a week, during which time the company

1020
00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:19,520
Speaker 13: rescinded the offer.

1021
00:49:21,080 --> 00:49:23,920
Speaker 6: That's bad. And though Equifax.

1022
00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:26,680
Speaker 13: Claims there are controls who can buy this information, security

1023
00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:29,959
Speaker 13: researcher Brian Krebs noted in twenty seventeen that it's easy

1024
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:33,040
Speaker 13: for pretty much anyone to get this information to learn

1025
00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:36,160
Speaker 13: your salary. The work number, in fact, is so important

1026
00:49:36,360 --> 00:49:38,680
Speaker 13: that Equifax is engaged in the work that should be

1027
00:49:38,719 --> 00:49:42,120
Speaker 13: reserved to a government. Equifax uses its data to build

1028
00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:46,160
Speaker 13: services for firms, such as managing unemployment compensation. When a

1029
00:49:46,160 --> 00:49:48,360
Speaker 13: firm lays off a worker, that worker is supposed to

1030
00:49:48,440 --> 00:49:51,680
Speaker 13: have rights to unemployment insurance with the firm, which the

1031
00:49:51,719 --> 00:49:54,080
Speaker 13: firm has to pay for. But if that employee was

1032
00:49:54,080 --> 00:49:57,240
Speaker 13: fired for cause or quit, then the worker isn't entitled

1033
00:49:57,320 --> 00:49:59,720
Speaker 13: to unemployment payments and the firm is off the hook.

1034
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:02,960
Speaker 13: So managing this process along with appeals is something that

1035
00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:06,759
Speaker 13: Equifax does for firms, and at the height of the

1036
00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:10,680
Speaker 13: Great Recession in twenty ten, Equifax was processing thirty percent

1037
00:50:10,719 --> 00:50:12,320
Speaker 13: of the employment claims in the country.

1038
00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:15,120
Speaker 6: That's massive. But here's the thing.

1039
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:19,839
Speaker 13: It had an automated system to systematically deny applications regardless

1040
00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:23,000
Speaker 13: of merit, so it's clients employers would have to pay

1041
00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:27,440
Speaker 13: less in unemployment taxes. So in order if you applied

1042
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:31,600
Speaker 13: for unemployment you had to escalate like that was just automatic.

1043
00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:34,880
Speaker 13: That's what's something that's a service that Equifax sold. We

1044
00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:38,880
Speaker 13: will automatically deny unemployment claims, no matter how legitimate, and

1045
00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:41,560
Speaker 13: this goal is on the firm's investment documents, which uses

1046
00:50:41,600 --> 00:50:44,480
Speaker 13: the anodyne wording of quote unquote. We offer the service

1047
00:50:44,520 --> 00:50:48,799
Speaker 13: of reducing the cost of unemployment claims through effective claims representation.

1048
00:50:49,920 --> 00:50:52,719
Speaker 13: That's how it describes as service it provides to employers

1049
00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:55,920
Speaker 13: who give it dead data. So it's perhaps no exaggeration

1050
00:50:56,000 --> 00:51:00,440
Speaker 13: to note that Equifax is a quasi governmental agency monopoly

1051
00:51:00,480 --> 00:51:03,640
Speaker 13: provider of evidence that you work where you work and

1052
00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:05,960
Speaker 13: what you make if there's an error or if someone

1053
00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:08,760
Speaker 13: lies about you. Too bad effect with the facts itself

1054
00:51:08,840 --> 00:51:09,440
Speaker 13: is paid.

1055
00:51:09,239 --> 00:51:10,440
Speaker 6: To harm you. Too bad.

1056
00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:13,360
Speaker 13: If a government agency gets the wrong data and denies

1057
00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:17,200
Speaker 13: you assistance or screws up your immigration status, that's on you.

1058
00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:20,840
Speaker 6: Well, you have limited to no rights in this situation.

1059
00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:23,080
Speaker 13: In some rights, you might have more a fear from

1060
00:51:23,160 --> 00:51:26,880
Speaker 13: Equifax than the irs, And Equifax understands this. They lobby

1061
00:51:27,080 --> 00:51:30,560
Speaker 13: for this particular situation. So here's Stephen Colbert making a

1062
00:51:30,640 --> 00:51:34,120
Speaker 13: quick point about the problem and Equifax's politics.

1063
00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:35,360
Speaker 3: Here's the nilio.

1064
00:51:35,480 --> 00:51:39,200
Speaker 14: Well, we still have litigation as the last line of protection.

1065
00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:44,680
Speaker 14: Maybe because Equifax is waging a concerted campaign to repeal

1066
00:51:44,760 --> 00:51:47,040
Speaker 14: federal regulations upholding.

1067
00:51:46,560 --> 00:51:48,360
Speaker 3: Consumers right to sue.

1068
00:51:48,560 --> 00:51:53,080
Speaker 14: Ah, No, our right to sue is what makes us American.

1069
00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:57,000
Speaker 13: Equal facts really wants to strip people's rights from making

1070
00:51:57,040 --> 00:52:00,600
Speaker 13: sure that their data is correct. It have to be

1071
00:52:00,680 --> 00:52:03,520
Speaker 13: this way. I'm talking about the whole industry. I mean,

1072
00:52:03,560 --> 00:52:05,480
Speaker 13: maybe you could make the argument a few decades ago

1073
00:52:05,520 --> 00:52:08,239
Speaker 13: when you had centralized databases and it was kind.

1074
00:52:08,120 --> 00:52:09,360
Speaker 6: Of hard to move this information.

1075
00:52:09,920 --> 00:52:14,120
Speaker 13: But with the Internet, and the Internet is twenty twenty

1076
00:52:14,200 --> 00:52:17,040
Speaker 13: years old or something at this point. But the Internet,

1077
00:52:17,040 --> 00:52:19,520
Speaker 13: with cloud computing, there's just no technical reason for a

1078
00:52:19,560 --> 00:52:23,520
Speaker 13: centralized repository of employment and verification data, at least not

1079
00:52:23,560 --> 00:52:25,760
Speaker 13: the way that it's set up today. It's quite possible

1080
00:52:25,800 --> 00:52:28,879
Speaker 13: to have a system allowing any fire verifier to ask

1081
00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:33,840
Speaker 13: the individual, to ask the individual for his or her records,

1082
00:52:34,040 --> 00:52:37,520
Speaker 13: but that would cut against Equifax's business model. That is,

1083
00:52:37,719 --> 00:52:40,080
Speaker 13: they don't keep your data secure, but they're a monopoly,

1084
00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:43,040
Speaker 13: so it doesn't matter. They don't ask you, but doesn't

1085
00:52:43,040 --> 00:52:44,680
Speaker 13: matter because they're monopoly, they have the data.

1086
00:52:45,280 --> 00:52:45,520
Speaker 7: Now.

1087
00:52:45,719 --> 00:52:51,319
Speaker 13: Frank Abognel advises companies and individuals on security's He was

1088
00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:54,080
Speaker 13: featured in the movie Catch Me If you Can, and

1089
00:52:54,160 --> 00:52:57,640
Speaker 13: here's his observation about the incentives that Equifax face is

1090
00:52:57,960 --> 00:53:00,720
Speaker 13: in the legal system in this country.

1091
00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:03,800
Speaker 17: Ever said to Equifax, you know what, you can store

1092
00:53:03,840 --> 00:53:07,000
Speaker 17: all my personal data and you can make billions of

1093
00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:11,360
Speaker 17: dollars selling it for background checks, employee checks, credit checks.

1094
00:53:12,320 --> 00:53:13,560
Speaker 7: No, I never said that.

1095
00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:16,000
Speaker 17: So what I want to say is, Equifax, you can

1096
00:53:16,080 --> 00:53:19,360
Speaker 17: keep my data, but you cannot show it to anyone

1097
00:53:20,160 --> 00:53:23,600
Speaker 17: without my consent, And if for some reason it gets

1098
00:53:23,640 --> 00:53:26,560
Speaker 17: in the wrong hand, I have the recourse to come

1099
00:53:26,600 --> 00:53:29,960
Speaker 17: back on you because you put me in jeopardy.

1100
00:53:30,480 --> 00:53:33,319
Speaker 13: So it shouldn't it shouldn't be this way, and in fact,

1101
00:53:33,400 --> 00:53:35,160
Speaker 13: it doesn't have to be this way. There are actually

1102
00:53:35,200 --> 00:53:38,239
Speaker 13: other companies who notice this monopoly and they're trying to

1103
00:53:38,400 --> 00:53:41,120
Speaker 13: compete in the market using privacy safe solutions. A lot

1104
00:53:41,120 --> 00:53:43,880
Speaker 13: of you know entrepreneurs were like, this is a crappy system.

1105
00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:46,680
Speaker 13: Let's build something better. Only they're running into roadblocks. So

1106
00:53:46,719 --> 00:53:49,280
Speaker 13: there are two particular firms. I talked to the leaders

1107
00:53:49,280 --> 00:53:52,200
Speaker 13: of both sur Trey and Argyle, who recently sent letters

1108
00:53:52,200 --> 00:53:54,839
Speaker 13: to the Federal Trade Commission asking for an investigation into

1109
00:53:54,880 --> 00:53:57,040
Speaker 13: this market, and they were pointing at the abuse of

1110
00:53:57,040 --> 00:54:00,239
Speaker 13: consumers buy Equifax and to a lesser extent experience, which

1111
00:54:00,280 --> 00:54:04,000
Speaker 13: is the number two. But like way, way, way down now,

1112
00:54:04,040 --> 00:54:07,560
Speaker 13: the strategies for each of these rivals are different, but

1113
00:54:07,719 --> 00:54:10,520
Speaker 13: both give the customer control over who can access their

1114
00:54:10,600 --> 00:54:13,839
Speaker 13: data instead of building a giant centralized repository controlled by

1115
00:54:13,840 --> 00:54:18,320
Speaker 13: a monopolist, and both charge much lower prices. The overall

1116
00:54:18,320 --> 00:54:21,400
Speaker 13: point here is that having a centralized data broker that

1117
00:54:21,400 --> 00:54:24,279
Speaker 13: has a quasi monopoly over income and verification data and

1118
00:54:24,360 --> 00:54:28,480
Speaker 13: since largely unregulated, is ridiculous. It's obvious that Equifax is

1119
00:54:28,520 --> 00:54:31,680
Speaker 13: immune to competitive forces, despite the price hikes and devastating

1120
00:54:31,680 --> 00:54:35,160
Speaker 13: and routine news stories about hacks, errors and problems, as

1121
00:54:35,160 --> 00:54:38,960
Speaker 13: well as public polling showing increasing concerns over privacy and

1122
00:54:39,320 --> 00:54:42,520
Speaker 13: new technologies like large language learning models that make this

1123
00:54:42,600 --> 00:54:45,520
Speaker 13: data useful in all sorts of other ways that could

1124
00:54:45,560 --> 00:54:50,480
Speaker 13: be really useful but also dangerous. Equifax marches on unbothered

1125
00:54:50,520 --> 00:54:54,120
Speaker 13: and unchasened. And that's the classic monopoly position, a recognition

1126
00:54:54,160 --> 00:54:57,160
Speaker 13: that there is no alternative to the entity in the market.

1127
00:54:57,760 --> 00:54:57,880
Speaker 12: Now.

1128
00:54:57,920 --> 00:55:00,400
Speaker 13: There are many legal levers here, from anti tres trust

1129
00:55:00,640 --> 00:55:05,319
Speaker 13: to credit reporting laws to regulation that can work regardless.

1130
00:55:05,360 --> 00:55:08,280
Speaker 13: I'd like to thank Equifax CEO Mark Baker for bragging

1131
00:55:08,719 --> 00:55:11,799
Speaker 13: about his firm's market power, because without that, I never

1132
00:55:11,840 --> 00:55:14,200
Speaker 13: would have taken the time to learn out why Equifax

1133
00:55:14,200 --> 00:55:16,719
Speaker 13: can act as a private irs, put out a middle

1134
00:55:16,719 --> 00:55:19,520
Speaker 13: finger to each one of us, and collect our money regardless.

1135
00:55:19,880 --> 00:55:22,520
Speaker 13: Thanks for watching this big breakdown on the Breaking Points channel.

1136
00:55:22,640 --> 00:55:24,400
Speaker 13: If you'd like to know more about big business and

1137
00:55:24,440 --> 00:55:26,640
Speaker 13: how our economy really works, you can sign up below

1138
00:55:26,680 --> 00:55:29,640
Speaker 13: for my market power focused newsletter Big in the description,

1139
00:55:29,800 --> 00:55:31,239
Speaker 13: Thanks and have a good one.

1140
00:55:34,680 --> 00:55:36,920
Speaker 18: Hey everyone, I'm Ken Klippenstein with breaking points to the

1141
00:55:36,920 --> 00:55:39,800
Speaker 18: Intercept edition. I did a story recently that I'd like

1142
00:55:39,840 --> 00:55:43,359
Speaker 18: to talk to you all about. Let's talk about Havana syndrome, or,

1143
00:55:43,440 --> 00:55:48,759
Speaker 18: as the US government calls it, the anomaloust health conditions.

1144
00:55:49,160 --> 00:55:50,759
Speaker 18: That's the new official term. You don't use the word

1145
00:55:50,760 --> 00:55:54,440
Speaker 18: havana syme for it anymore. What Havana syndrome refers to

1146
00:55:54,560 --> 00:55:58,160
Speaker 18: is a set of alleged symptoms alleged by US spies,

1147
00:55:58,560 --> 00:56:02,239
Speaker 18: diplomats and other person now at various US embassies that

1148
00:56:02,320 --> 00:56:08,320
Speaker 18: they say resemble you know, hearing strange noises, cognitive issues, headaches, nausea.

1149
00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:12,279
Speaker 18: It's a really mysterious set of symptoms, and over a

1150
00:56:12,400 --> 00:56:15,640
Speaker 18: thousand of these individuals have alleged this. So I took

1151
00:56:15,680 --> 00:56:19,279
Speaker 18: a look at the Pentagon budget which was released last month.

1152
00:56:19,320 --> 00:56:22,880
Speaker 18: To my surprise, nobody had reported one thing that was

1153
00:56:22,880 --> 00:56:25,560
Speaker 18: in it, which was the budget for responding to Havana syndrome.

1154
00:56:25,840 --> 00:56:28,759
Speaker 18: That's thirty six million dollars. That's a budget that's been

1155
00:56:28,800 --> 00:56:31,960
Speaker 18: increasing every year since they've first allocated money to this.

1156
00:56:32,560 --> 00:56:35,920
Speaker 18: And something I find interesting about the government response to

1157
00:56:36,040 --> 00:56:36,879
Speaker 18: Vana syndrome.

1158
00:56:36,600 --> 00:56:37,839
Speaker 7: Is how bipartisan it is.

1159
00:56:38,200 --> 00:56:40,879
Speaker 18: At the time that it seems we can't get folks

1160
00:56:40,920 --> 00:56:43,520
Speaker 18: in government to agree on anything. I mean, they're debating

1161
00:56:43,560 --> 00:56:50,520
Speaker 18: now cutting food stamps, subsidies to clean energy, you know,

1162
00:56:50,600 --> 00:56:53,960
Speaker 18: potentially sending the government into default if you believe some

1163
00:56:53,960 --> 00:56:57,560
Speaker 18: of the more extreme members of the Republican Caucus. Something

1164
00:56:57,600 --> 00:57:01,520
Speaker 18: that they universally agreed on, every single cenator, every single

1165
00:57:01,920 --> 00:57:05,600
Speaker 18: representative of Congress two years ago was to fund a

1166
00:57:05,640 --> 00:57:11,000
Speaker 18: response to the so called Avana syndrome, or rather anomalist

1167
00:57:11,040 --> 00:57:14,000
Speaker 18: health incidents. I'm sorry, we had the user proper verbidge here.

1168
00:57:14,960 --> 00:57:17,160
Speaker 18: And so what's interesting about that is not only did

1169
00:57:17,160 --> 00:57:18,960
Speaker 18: they authorize that fund in a couple years ago, it

1170
00:57:19,000 --> 00:57:21,920
Speaker 18: continues to increase every year. So let's talk about what

1171
00:57:22,040 --> 00:57:25,040
Speaker 18: exactly that thirty six million dollars entails. It's not just

1172
00:57:25,200 --> 00:57:29,480
Speaker 18: healthcare treatment for the individuals affected. It's also R and

1173
00:57:29,560 --> 00:57:34,680
Speaker 18: D research into what the conditions are that you might

1174
00:57:34,800 --> 00:57:37,520
Speaker 18: lead somebody to be susceptible to this, how to respond

1175
00:57:37,560 --> 00:57:40,760
Speaker 18: to it. And as Politico, the budget's not terribly detailed

1176
00:57:40,760 --> 00:57:43,600
Speaker 18: about what that all entails. But as Politico reported a

1177
00:57:43,680 --> 00:57:46,880
Speaker 18: couple of weeks ago, the military is experimenting with different

1178
00:57:46,920 --> 00:57:50,080
Speaker 18: weapons systems to try to see if they can induce

1179
00:57:52,160 --> 00:57:55,120
Speaker 18: the conditions that would cause what they believed to be

1180
00:57:55,680 --> 00:57:58,080
Speaker 18: a Vana syndrome. Now, something I think that's really important

1181
00:57:58,080 --> 00:58:00,000
Speaker 18: to address and all this is that it's not clear

1182
00:58:00,200 --> 00:58:03,120
Speaker 18: what havanas syndroime is exactly. There's all sorts of disagreement

1183
00:58:03,120 --> 00:58:07,400
Speaker 18: over you know, what constitutes it. And if you look

1184
00:58:07,440 --> 00:58:11,439
Speaker 18: at the CIA interim study that was released last year

1185
00:58:12,120 --> 00:58:15,840
Speaker 18: that spent you know, all sorts of resources investigating this, again,

1186
00:58:15,880 --> 00:58:17,840
Speaker 18: they had about a thousand a little over a thousand

1187
00:58:17,880 --> 00:58:19,760
Speaker 18: people saying that they had it. They were able to

1188
00:58:19,840 --> 00:58:24,360
Speaker 18: rule out the majority of those cases as having environmental causes,

1189
00:58:24,400 --> 00:58:27,160
Speaker 18: pre existing health conditions, so on and so forth.

1190
00:58:27,200 --> 00:58:28,960
Speaker 7: Now, I don't think it's bad to respond.

1191
00:58:29,080 --> 00:58:31,800
Speaker 18: I mean, even if something is psychiatric, that's still something

1192
00:58:31,800 --> 00:58:34,240
Speaker 18: that you can respond to and provide health care for.

1193
00:58:34,720 --> 00:58:36,960
Speaker 18: But the manner in which they're approaching this, as you

1194
00:58:37,000 --> 00:58:38,920
Speaker 18: recall when it first came out have van a smem

1195
00:58:38,960 --> 00:58:42,080
Speaker 18: The title refers to the US embassy in Cuba, where

1196
00:58:42,640 --> 00:58:45,919
Speaker 18: diplomats and spies first started alleging these symptoms. But since

1197
00:58:45,960 --> 00:58:49,560
Speaker 18: then these symptoms were reported all over the world, embassies

1198
00:58:49,560 --> 00:58:52,400
Speaker 18: all over the world, China, Russia, I mean there's like

1199
00:58:52,640 --> 00:58:55,000
Speaker 18: over a dozen of them. And what's interesting, you know,

1200
00:58:55,040 --> 00:58:57,600
Speaker 18: I do a lot of work in national security interviewing

1201
00:58:57,640 --> 00:58:58,840
Speaker 18: folks in that space.

1202
00:58:59,360 --> 00:59:01,760
Speaker 7: I realized when I started asking them. Almost immediately, I said,

1203
00:59:01,760 --> 00:59:02,760
Speaker 7: you know, what is this? What are you hearing?

1204
00:59:02,800 --> 00:59:05,280
Speaker 18: Because very often, even when stuff is highly classified, things,

1205
00:59:05,560 --> 00:59:06,439
Speaker 18: you know, word gets around.

1206
00:59:06,480 --> 00:59:07,680
Speaker 7: It's very hard to keep a secret.

1207
00:59:07,720 --> 00:59:09,800
Speaker 18: People would hear things from retired people, would hear things

1208
00:59:09,840 --> 00:59:11,720
Speaker 18: from people inside. People inside might talk to you and

1209
00:59:11,720 --> 00:59:14,200
Speaker 18: tell you what they're hearing about it. And what was

1210
00:59:14,240 --> 00:59:16,800
Speaker 18: amazing was the range of opinions that I was able

1211
00:59:16,840 --> 00:59:20,080
Speaker 18: to solicit. When I asked folks this question, it seemed

1212
00:59:20,080 --> 00:59:22,240
Speaker 18: almost like a roar shock test. It was like the

1213
00:59:22,280 --> 00:59:24,520
Speaker 18: people I knew that worked counter intelligence in Russia, They're like,

1214
00:59:24,560 --> 00:59:26,600
Speaker 18: it's got to be the Russians, it's a Russian energy weapon.

1215
00:59:26,840 --> 00:59:29,400
Speaker 18: The people working counter intelligence against the Chinese, it's got

1216
00:59:29,440 --> 00:59:32,240
Speaker 18: to be Beijing. They're doing this to us for X,

1217
00:59:32,360 --> 00:59:35,480
Speaker 18: Y and Z reason. Other people said it was Cuba.

1218
00:59:35,560 --> 00:59:37,520
Speaker 18: And you know these I mean, these are obviously probably

1219
00:59:37,640 --> 00:59:39,400
Speaker 18: private conversations that I had, But if you look back

1220
00:59:39,400 --> 00:59:43,000
Speaker 18: at the media coverage, initially it was taken very seriously

1221
00:59:43,040 --> 00:59:46,360
Speaker 18: that this must be some kind of directed energy weapon,

1222
00:59:46,400 --> 00:59:48,840
Speaker 18: and a lot of people pointed the finger at the Russians.

1223
00:59:48,880 --> 00:59:51,360
Speaker 18: But what that CIA interim report that I mentioned a

1224
00:59:51,400 --> 00:59:54,840
Speaker 18: couple of minutes ago found was that it's unlikely that

1225
00:59:55,280 --> 00:59:58,000
Speaker 18: there was a foreign adversary. And just a couple of

1226
00:59:58,040 --> 01:00:03,640
Speaker 18: weeks ago, a conclusive multi agency intelligence community assessment reiterated

1227
01:00:03,640 --> 01:00:06,440
Speaker 18: that in greater detail, finding that it was quote highly

1228
01:00:06,560 --> 01:00:11,240
Speaker 18: unlikely that it's a foreign adversary doing this. So they've

1229
01:00:11,280 --> 01:00:14,240
Speaker 18: just tossed out this idea that it's a direct energy weapon.

1230
01:00:15,240 --> 01:00:15,920
Speaker 7: Not much.

1231
01:00:17,680 --> 01:00:19,320
Speaker 18: You know, reflection on the part of the press about

1232
01:00:19,520 --> 01:00:20,880
Speaker 18: why did we run with this before?

1233
01:00:21,520 --> 01:00:22,760
Speaker 7: You know, when I were writing.

1234
01:00:22,480 --> 01:00:25,439
Speaker 18: These stories, I thought, wow, they're really throwing their lot

1235
01:00:25,440 --> 01:00:27,200
Speaker 18: in with this theory that if it turns out not

1236
01:00:27,200 --> 01:00:28,760
Speaker 18: to be true, they're going to have egg on their face.

1237
01:00:28,880 --> 01:00:30,440
Speaker 18: Turns out, if you just don't talk about it, there

1238
01:00:30,440 --> 01:00:32,760
Speaker 18: won't be any egg on your face. So there's just

1239
01:00:32,800 --> 01:00:34,680
Speaker 18: been this complete shift now where it's like, oh, it's

1240
01:00:34,720 --> 01:00:38,760
Speaker 18: not a foreign adversary, and you know, people can say, well,

1241
01:00:38,800 --> 01:00:41,040
Speaker 18: this is the intelligence community's assessment, how do we trust

1242
01:00:41,040 --> 01:00:41,880
Speaker 18: that that's true.

1243
01:00:42,160 --> 01:00:43,840
Speaker 7: I have a feeling that if they find something.

1244
01:00:43,600 --> 01:00:48,520
Speaker 18: Derogatory about the you know, nation state adversaries on which

1245
01:00:48,560 --> 01:00:51,520
Speaker 18: their budget and money and resources and really reason for

1246
01:00:51,600 --> 01:00:53,960
Speaker 18: existing depends. I'm a feeling they're going to release that,

1247
01:00:54,000 --> 01:00:55,640
Speaker 18: so I don't think they're going to be particularly shy

1248
01:00:55,720 --> 01:00:59,200
Speaker 18: about it. But in any case, what was most astonishing

1249
01:00:59,480 --> 01:01:02,560
Speaker 18: in this Pine Gone a budget to me not just

1250
01:01:02,600 --> 01:01:04,920
Speaker 18: the amount thirty six million, but the spending on R

1251
01:01:04,960 --> 01:01:07,440
Speaker 18: and D. As I mentioned the political report, they're experimenting

1252
01:01:07,480 --> 01:01:09,800
Speaker 18: with their own weapons systems to try to create conditions

1253
01:01:09,800 --> 01:01:13,600
Speaker 18: that they think might lead to Havana syndrome. Is just

1254
01:01:13,640 --> 01:01:17,000
Speaker 18: how sophisticated this response that continues to It's just classic

1255
01:01:17,080 --> 01:01:20,520
Speaker 18: national security. You allocate money to something and it never disappears,

1256
01:01:20,560 --> 01:01:23,320
Speaker 18: even after this conclusive report that found that it can't

1257
01:01:23,360 --> 01:01:26,160
Speaker 18: have been very unlikely to have been caused by a

1258
01:01:26,200 --> 01:01:29,560
Speaker 18: foreign adversary. What I found is it's not just the

1259
01:01:29,600 --> 01:01:31,760
Speaker 18: military that's doing this. Although the Pentagon budget, I think

1260
01:01:31,760 --> 01:01:35,840
Speaker 18: the Pentagon takes point because they have the healthcare resources

1261
01:01:36,680 --> 01:01:40,800
Speaker 18: in place to most effectively respond to this. They're responding

1262
01:01:40,880 --> 01:01:44,640
Speaker 18: in conjunction with a bunch of different agencies. This task

1263
01:01:44,720 --> 01:01:46,960
Speaker 18: force to have that's responding to it has more than

1264
01:01:47,040 --> 01:01:51,200
Speaker 18: doubled in size since its inception, which was just only

1265
01:01:51,240 --> 01:01:52,960
Speaker 18: just a couple of years ago. If you read a

1266
01:01:53,240 --> 01:01:56,600
Speaker 18: Inspector General report that the Pentagon put out last year,

1267
01:01:57,000 --> 01:01:59,200
Speaker 18: they found that not only has that staff doubled, it

1268
01:01:59,240 --> 01:02:02,280
Speaker 18: includes a two star military general to give you a

1269
01:02:02,320 --> 01:02:04,840
Speaker 18: sense of like how seriously they're they're taking this, who's

1270
01:02:04,880 --> 01:02:07,800
Speaker 18: detailed and a bunch of full time staff. So these

1271
01:02:07,800 --> 01:02:09,840
Speaker 18: are not just people working on the side occasionally to

1272
01:02:10,360 --> 01:02:12,160
Speaker 18: work on this task force. It's something that the military

1273
01:02:12,200 --> 01:02:14,640
Speaker 18: is taking very seriously with regards to not just money,

1274
01:02:14,680 --> 01:02:19,600
Speaker 18: but the seniority of the individuals detailed detailed to this

1275
01:02:20,000 --> 01:02:22,680
Speaker 18: task force. And in addition to that, it's people from

1276
01:02:22,840 --> 01:02:27,360
Speaker 18: all sorts of different service branches air Force, military, police,

1277
01:02:27,600 --> 01:02:28,480
Speaker 18: marine corps.

1278
01:02:29,640 --> 01:02:30,440
Speaker 7: So it's astonishing.

1279
01:02:30,520 --> 01:02:32,760
Speaker 18: The size of this response is something that we still

1280
01:02:32,840 --> 01:02:37,320
Speaker 18: don't know a what it is and b if there

1281
01:02:37,400 --> 01:02:40,400
Speaker 18: is even a what there even if it's something that's

1282
01:02:40,440 --> 01:02:44,760
Speaker 18: not just psychogenic. You know, when I interviewed folks who

1283
01:02:44,800 --> 01:02:47,240
Speaker 18: worked with the CIA, the impression I got was such

1284
01:02:47,240 --> 01:02:50,760
Speaker 18: an American story. It was like I heard the same

1285
01:02:50,880 --> 01:02:53,840
Speaker 18: kinds of distrust for their internal medical system that you

1286
01:02:54,040 --> 01:02:56,760
Speaker 18: hear from folks in this just ordinary everyday people. I

1287
01:02:56,800 --> 01:03:00,040
Speaker 18: don't trust the healthcare system, and I understand that that

1288
01:03:00,880 --> 01:03:03,800
Speaker 18: should precipitate a different kind of response than this mad

1289
01:03:03,880 --> 01:03:07,000
Speaker 18: dash to find out about the secret weapon that you

1290
01:03:07,080 --> 01:03:12,800
Speaker 18: know they've developed out of a Bond movie versus you know, Again,

1291
01:03:12,840 --> 01:03:15,800
Speaker 18: if it's just psychiatric I still think that's something that's

1292
01:03:16,080 --> 01:03:19,360
Speaker 18: reasonable to respond to. But does it require this whole

1293
01:03:19,440 --> 01:03:22,280
Speaker 18: regime that we've set up, not just within the military

1294
01:03:22,280 --> 01:03:25,520
Speaker 18: service branchies, but with the State Department as well. I

1295
01:03:25,560 --> 01:03:28,920
Speaker 18: had a document leaked to me last year showing that

1296
01:03:28,960 --> 01:03:32,160
Speaker 18: the Department of Homeland Security was trying to solicit reports

1297
01:03:32,160 --> 01:03:34,880
Speaker 18: from their personnel on whether or not they had experienced

1298
01:03:35,160 --> 01:03:37,080
Speaker 18: any of these symptoms. So what you're seeing is just

1299
01:03:37,120 --> 01:03:40,520
Speaker 18: this huge multigovernment dash. And we only know about the

1300
01:03:40,520 --> 01:03:43,160
Speaker 18: Pentagon side of the budget. We don't know about the

1301
01:03:43,200 --> 01:03:47,439
Speaker 18: classified intelligence community budget, which is a black budget, which

1302
01:03:47,480 --> 01:03:50,880
Speaker 18: is likely you know, includes at least a bit more money,

1303
01:03:50,880 --> 01:03:52,920
Speaker 18: if not a lot more. And so I just like

1304
01:03:52,960 --> 01:03:55,440
Speaker 18: to see some debate on this issue about which there

1305
01:03:55,480 --> 01:03:59,000
Speaker 18: seems to be total partisan There is total partisan agreement. Again,

1306
01:03:59,120 --> 01:04:02,120
Speaker 18: every single member of voted for that funding two years ago,

1307
01:04:02,760 --> 01:04:06,000
Speaker 18: but which the public isn't aware of and that's not

1308
01:04:06,040 --> 01:04:08,200
Speaker 18: their fault. The government has not talked about these things.

1309
01:04:08,360 --> 01:04:10,479
Speaker 18: There was no press release for this thirty six million

1310
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Speaker 18: dollar budget. There's no discussion by the press secretary. I

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Speaker 18: only found it because I went through the you know,

1312
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Speaker 18: over thousands of page budget to just look for it,

1313
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Speaker 18: and I just searched for the term anomalous health incidents,

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Speaker 18: knowing that that's what the government called it, and found this,

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Speaker 18: and so I that's really what I want to bring

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Speaker 18: this to your guys attention. I hope that there's some

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Speaker 18: discussion on this on the part of committees, because again,

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Speaker 18: we're talking about cutting all sorts of domestic programs because

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Speaker 18: of the debt. And what is the one thing you

1320
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Speaker 18: never hear about cutting the Pentagon. That's something that is

1321
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Speaker 18: explicitly off the table that House Speaker Kevin McCarthy said

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Speaker 18: will not be something that's subjected to cuts. And that's

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Speaker 18: incredible because virtually everything else is. That's not to say

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Speaker 18: they will cut everything else with the ideas, they're open

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Speaker 18: to the you know, discussing that, putting that on the

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Speaker 18: table and having that be a part of the nego ciations.

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Speaker 18: So I'll be your hero is always paying attention to

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Speaker 18: what the Pentagon is doing and what they're not telling

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Speaker 18: you guys about it. But thanks so much for joining

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Speaker 18: me once again, and I'm Ken Clippenstein with breaking points

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Speaker 18: to the Intercept edition.