WEBVTT - Who Put Bella In the Wych Elm?

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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<v Speaker 2>Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Jerry.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh my gosh, there's Chuck. Sorry Chuck, and this is

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<v Speaker 2>Stuff you Should Know. And we're off to a weird, weird.

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<v Speaker 3>Start on that's right, I forgot I was here.

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<v Speaker 2>I just I don't know what happened. My reference copies

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<v Speaker 2>on the fritz.

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<v Speaker 1>Hey, real quick before we get started, And this just

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<v Speaker 1>hit me. I went to a work function yesterday wherein

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<v Speaker 1>we celebrated Jonathan Strickland. Are still our colleague, but our

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<v Speaker 1>old buddy from the old House Stuff Works Early Stuff

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<v Speaker 1>podcast days, who was the long long, long, long long

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<v Speaker 1>time host of Tech Stuff Yep, and he has hung

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<v Speaker 1>up his tech boots to as far as hosting that show.

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<v Speaker 1>He's still around and executive producing a slate of shows,

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<v Speaker 1>but he decided not to host Tech Stuff any long younger,

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<v Speaker 1>and we just it was great seeing him. It's been

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<v Speaker 1>quite a while and he's doing great. And just hats

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<v Speaker 1>off to Jonathan and what a great body of work

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<v Speaker 1>he's he's given the world over all those years.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he has been. Hats off to you, John, like

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<v Speaker 2>that's you should be very proud. We're all proud of you, for.

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<v Speaker 1>Sure, but keep that your head on strickling because you

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<v Speaker 1>got that bald head. We don't want to get sunburned.

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<v Speaker 2>Wow, that was really cool. If you bring up, I'm

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<v Speaker 2>glad you did.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it was good.

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<v Speaker 1>I saw some of the old crew, and it's just

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<v Speaker 1>it's been too long because you know, we don't go

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<v Speaker 1>to the office much anymore, and nobody does, so it's

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<v Speaker 1>not like if I went there, I would see all

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<v Speaker 1>the old gang.

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<v Speaker 3>But it was good. It was nice to catch up

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<v Speaker 3>with some people.

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<v Speaker 2>That's cool, man. Yeah, you sent me and Jerry some

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<v Speaker 2>good pictures.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it's fun.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, Well, onto the murder of a woman right?

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<v Speaker 3>Awful.

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<v Speaker 2>So this is a pretty true, pretty famous true crime case,

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<v Speaker 2>like really really famous. I'm not sure if you'd heard

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<v Speaker 2>of it before, have you?

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<v Speaker 3>No?

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<v Speaker 2>No, I'm not sure why or where it first got me,

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<v Speaker 2>but I'm pretty sure. So I think Dave helped us

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<v Speaker 2>with this. And he linked to a pair of pictures

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<v Speaker 2>of a tree and then a diagram of the woman,

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<v Speaker 2>the murdered woman in this case, and like, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>like almost an anatomical diagram of what was found where

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<v Speaker 2>and what she was wearing and all that, and it

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<v Speaker 2>has like a real Ripley's believe it or not look

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<v Speaker 2>to it. The drawing does, and those things are as

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<v Speaker 2>etched in my brain as pictures from like the Time

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<v Speaker 2>Life paranormal series Wow, from when I was a kid,

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<v Speaker 2>So at some point I was exposed to this. So

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<v Speaker 2>it's one of those things that I've always just kind

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<v Speaker 2>of known about, but I didn't know any of the

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<v Speaker 2>details really, and it's a truly fascinating case that I

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<v Speaker 2>think one of the things that makes it appealing too

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<v Speaker 2>is there's this level of this sense of like witchcraft

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<v Speaker 2>or some sort of like Pegan Colts involved or something

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<v Speaker 2>like that. And it turns out that that's not true,

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<v Speaker 2>that's not the case. That a lot of it is

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<v Speaker 2>just associated with the tree, that she was found in

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<v Speaker 2>a witch elm, which has nothing to do with witches,

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<v Speaker 2>and that she might not have even been found in

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<v Speaker 2>that kind of tree. So let's get into it, Chuck,

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<v Speaker 2>because I like confusing everybody from the outset.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, this definitely smacked of like Tales from the Crypt

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<v Speaker 1>or a Weird Stories entree or something like that. This

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<v Speaker 1>goes back to World War Two in April of nineteen

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<v Speaker 1>forty three, specifically Robert Hart, Bob Farmer, Tommy Willets, and

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<v Speaker 1>Fred Payne, four teenage boys went to what was called

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<v Speaker 1>the or what is called I guess Hagley Wood. This

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<v Speaker 1>was a time in World War two where they were

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<v Speaker 1>rationing things like food in Britain. So they were looking

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<v Speaker 1>for food. They were looking to catch some rabbits or

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<v Speaker 1>maybe get some eggs from bird's nest and fifteen year

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<v Speaker 1>old Bob Farmer saw an opening in a tree, went

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<v Speaker 1>up to check it out and it looked like an eggshell.

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<v Speaker 1>It turned out it was a skull, and so he

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<v Speaker 1>got a stick, wrapped it with some cloth and lifted

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<v Speaker 1>the skull up out of there, and they were like,

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<v Speaker 1>what kind of animal is this? Turns out it was

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<v Speaker 1>a human animal. It had a clump of hair, a

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<v Speaker 1>couple of crooked teeth had clearly been munched on by

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<v Speaker 1>some animals, and so they were like, weird trespassing, and

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<v Speaker 1>we don't want to get like most kids would do, like, uh,

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<v Speaker 1>we don't want to get in trouble, so we're just

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<v Speaker 1>going to put it back and never talk about it.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I think their quote was home and a home

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<v Speaker 2>and a home plus X. So yeah, they could have

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<v Speaker 2>gotten in decent amount of trouble. I couldn't find exactly what,

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<v Speaker 2>but they were poaching, and poaching was a big deal

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<v Speaker 2>still then. I think it still is now, but it's

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<v Speaker 2>probably lost a little bit of its you know, punishment.

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<v Speaker 2>Sure regardless the I guess the oldest boy, Tommy Willitts,

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<v Speaker 2>he was seventeen despite this vow, went right home and

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<v Speaker 2>told his parents. Yeah, and I say, good boy, Tommy Willitts,

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<v Speaker 2>because he it was clear to him like we just

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<v Speaker 2>found a human skull in a tree and that's something

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<v Speaker 2>that we need to talk about. So very quickly the

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<v Speaker 2>police were called in and they started to investigate, and

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<v Speaker 2>they brought in a guy named James Webster who was

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<v Speaker 2>a pathologist with the Birmingham Forensic Laboratory, and he essentially

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<v Speaker 2>led the initial investigation and came to some pretty good

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<v Speaker 2>basic conclusions. Because there's one thing to know about this case.

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<v Speaker 2>It has been hijacked and molded in all sorts of

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<v Speaker 2>different ways, and you really have to be careful that

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<v Speaker 2>you're aware of what source you're getting your information from

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<v Speaker 2>because it's just one of those cases that people have

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<v Speaker 2>loved to talk about and add to and lie about

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<v Speaker 2>and do all sorts of stuff with. But the stuff

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<v Speaker 2>that comes from James Webster is definitely Legit was he

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<v Speaker 2>first hand examined the body.

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<v Speaker 3>That's right.

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<v Speaker 1>So he cut this tree open. He found most of

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<v Speaker 1>the skeleton in. There was missing, some small bones and

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<v Speaker 1>I think they got a tibia nearby.

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<v Speaker 3>There was pieces of clothing, There was a shoe, there

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<v Speaker 3>was a.

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<v Speaker 1>Wedding ring, and they you know, when you get a

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<v Speaker 1>skeleton like that, you're going to reconstruct it and try

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<v Speaker 1>and figure out who this person was or what they

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<v Speaker 1>may have been, you know, shaped like right, And they said, well,

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<v Speaker 1>this is a woman probably about thirty five five feet tall,

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<v Speaker 1>so you know, quite quite short, with brown hair because

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<v Speaker 1>I think I mentioned those little bit of hair very

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<v Speaker 1>gruesomely still on the skull.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, did you see the picture of that.

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<v Speaker 3>I did.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And she's probably been gone about eighteen months, maybe longer.

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<v Speaker 1>And like I mentioned, animals had gotten into these bones

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<v Speaker 1>and you know, munched on them some, right.

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<v Speaker 2>So Webster was like, I'm pretty sure this is a murder.

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<v Speaker 2>There's a few things that stand out to me. One

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<v Speaker 2>stuffed into the jaw pretty deeply into the jaw was

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<v Speaker 2>a piece of the taffeta from the woman's dress. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>and enough that it was enough of the piece of

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<v Speaker 2>the dress that he was like, this could have asphyxiated

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<v Speaker 2>somebody if it was stuffed into their mouth while they

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<v Speaker 2>were still alive.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeh.

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<v Speaker 2>Probably wasn't a dress eater, so maybe this is murder.

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<v Speaker 2>He also said that there's no way that this person

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<v Speaker 2>was placed into this tiny opening. So it was about

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<v Speaker 2>twelve inches by twenty four inches, like say a third

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<v Speaker 2>of a meter by two thirds of a meter, Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>which is a very tiny place, even for a five

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<v Speaker 2>foot woman. Like that's a I get claustrophobic just thinking

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<v Speaker 2>about that. And that if they were dead already, then

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<v Speaker 2>like rigor mortis would have prevented them from being pushed

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<v Speaker 2>into there even And then also, this is not the

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<v Speaker 2>kind of place that a person's just going to crawl

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<v Speaker 2>into on their own accord, Like they were placed in there,

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<v Speaker 2>possibly while alive still, which is one of the ghastlier

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<v Speaker 2>aspects of this case. And so Webster said, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>you put all this together, I'm pretty sure this is

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<v Speaker 2>a murder that we're looking at.

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<v Speaker 1>The Other thing they had to go on was as

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<v Speaker 1>far as clues go was they had most of the

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<v Speaker 1>jaw intact, and so they thought, hey, maybe we can find.

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<v Speaker 3>A dental match. They were not able to.

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<v Speaker 1>Now that they had this kind of rough physical description,

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<v Speaker 1>they thought, well, let's come through missing persons reports. Did

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<v Speaker 1>not find anything matching that, and so the case went

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<v Speaker 1>cold for a while. They just kind of put it

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<v Speaker 1>on the shelf. Hagleywood itself, we should describe it a

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<v Speaker 1>little bit. It is on a private estate, but it

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<v Speaker 1>wasn't like gated and walled up such that you couldn't

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<v Speaker 1>access it, because people would use it. People would have

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<v Speaker 1>picnics there while the blitz was going on and cities

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<v Speaker 1>were being bombed. People would leave Birmingham sometimes and even

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<v Speaker 1>sleep out there around Hagleywood where it was a little quieter.

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<v Speaker 3>And then a weird thing.

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<v Speaker 1>Happened in March of nineteen forty four, so this is

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<v Speaker 1>about almost a year afterward. Their graffiti started popping up

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<v Speaker 1>around town around Birmingham and we'll see elsewhere with white

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<v Speaker 1>chalk letters and all caps on these brick walls. Two

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<v Speaker 1>messages at first, one said Hagley would Bella and another

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<v Speaker 1>said who put Bella down? The witch elm wyh dash

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<v Speaker 1>Hagley Wood.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so this is where we get the name of

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<v Speaker 2>the victim that everybody knows, and the type of tree

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<v Speaker 2>that the victim was found in that everybody knows from

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<v Speaker 2>graffiti from an anonymous person. But it was enough that

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<v Speaker 2>the police were like, Okay, this seems a little weird.

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<v Speaker 2>There were other people who started to kind of copycat

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<v Speaker 2>the whole thing once the paper started writing about it,

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<v Speaker 2>but there was at least a third one a couple

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<v Speaker 2>days later that was clearly written by this the first

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<v Speaker 2>person who wrote the first two. And they were like,

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<v Speaker 2>maybe this person knows who it was and they want

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<v Speaker 2>to find justice for the woman. And they looked they

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<v Speaker 2>they reopen the case and this is I mean, they'd

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<v Speaker 2>already really extensively investigated, having like both both jaws. They're like, great,

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<v Speaker 2>we'll do dental records and we'll find who it is.

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<v Speaker 2>Nothing matched. They tried to comb through all of the

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<v Speaker 2>missing persons reports, no one matched. They get this, chuck,

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<v Speaker 2>did you see that? They investigated the shoe and got

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<v Speaker 2>really far with it. They traced the shoe that they

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<v Speaker 2>found with her back to the Waterfoot Company in Lancashire, Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>and they traced down all but six of the owners

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<v Speaker 2>of all but six of the pears. They were sold

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<v Speaker 2>in a market stall, So this wasn't like looking through

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<v Speaker 2>the market's credit card receipts cards. No, like they really

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<v Speaker 2>were doing some light work here, and you know, hats

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<v Speaker 2>off to him because let's not forget England was getting

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<v Speaker 2>bombed almost nightly by the LUFTWAFFA. There was food rationing,

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<v Speaker 2>there was a war on and they investigated this random,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, dead person that hard and then they reopened

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<v Speaker 2>the case. I'm just saying I think they did a

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<v Speaker 2>good job with what they were working with totally.

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<v Speaker 1>And by the way, I don't know when credit cards

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<v Speaker 1>came about to Maybe that's a good shorty So if

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<v Speaker 1>I'm wrong, I imagine they sprung from credit accounts like

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<v Speaker 1>with a store or something. But yeah, maybe we should

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<v Speaker 1>do it on that. I bet it's Diner's Club.

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<v Speaker 2>I think it was Diner's Club, Impact with Telly Savalis. No,

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<v Speaker 2>that was Players Club.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, yeah, was it okay because he was a player?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah? Yeah, yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>You noted some other graffiti's one of the ones that

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<v Speaker 1>seemed to be from the same hand. This was in

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<v Speaker 1>hales Owen, and another town nearby. This is different just

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<v Speaker 1>because a had a different name, and this one said,

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<v Speaker 1>who put Lubella l u e b e l l

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<v Speaker 1>A Lubella in the witch Elm? And we mentioned that

0:11:52.960 --> 0:11:55.480
<v Speaker 1>even though it seems like a copycat had done it

0:11:55.480 --> 0:11:58.360
<v Speaker 1>because it was in different script, it just gave them

0:11:58.360 --> 0:12:01.320
<v Speaker 1>another name to look for. And so they looked for

0:12:01.480 --> 0:12:03.800
<v Speaker 1>Loubella as well and came up cold as well.

0:12:04.320 --> 0:12:11.600
<v Speaker 2>Yes, yeah, they looked for everybody, Bella Lubella, Isabella, lou Bega, everybody,

0:12:12.120 --> 0:12:13.120
<v Speaker 2>and nothing came up.

0:12:13.320 --> 0:12:16.280
<v Speaker 3>Right knowing he's going to pop up on this show.

0:12:16.600 --> 0:12:19.320
<v Speaker 2>That was one of the best pranks ever played on us.

0:12:19.320 --> 0:12:21.080
<v Speaker 1>Pretty good as you don't know what we're talking about,

0:12:21.160 --> 0:12:24.240
<v Speaker 1>it's just an Easter egg, and listen to every episode

0:12:24.240 --> 0:12:24.920
<v Speaker 1>and you'll learn.

0:12:25.280 --> 0:12:30.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, so the witch Elm thing. For those of

0:12:30.640 --> 0:12:37.880
<v Speaker 2>us who aren't familiar with with British trees, sure, the

0:12:38.080 --> 0:12:41.520
<v Speaker 2>name witch Elm does not mean witch w i t

0:12:41.640 --> 0:12:44.079
<v Speaker 2>c h. It's you spelled it before, it's w y

0:12:44.280 --> 0:12:47.600
<v Speaker 2>c h And it comes from an old English word

0:12:48.240 --> 0:12:53.560
<v Speaker 2>maybe vice vis w i c and that means smooth

0:12:53.679 --> 0:12:57.160
<v Speaker 2>or supple, and that that describes the bark of a

0:12:57.200 --> 0:13:00.640
<v Speaker 2>witch elm has nothing to do with witches. Witches are

0:13:00.679 --> 0:13:03.720
<v Speaker 2>not associated with the witch elm. It's not even spelled

0:13:03.760 --> 0:13:09.480
<v Speaker 2>the same. And yet there's been an association with witchcraft

0:13:09.880 --> 0:13:13.120
<v Speaker 2>and this case at least in part because of that,

0:13:13.200 --> 0:13:17.040
<v Speaker 2>even among Brits, Like there was a folklorist an archaeologist

0:13:17.120 --> 0:13:20.840
<v Speaker 2>named Margaret Murray who loved to spin a good yarn

0:13:21.480 --> 0:13:24.320
<v Speaker 2>and she was one of the first people to associate

0:13:24.400 --> 0:13:28.400
<v Speaker 2>this case with witches and basically said, witches killed this lady.

0:13:29.040 --> 0:13:34.800
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so she wrote a book, a prominent folklorist and archaeologist,

0:13:35.120 --> 0:13:37.360
<v Speaker 1>she wrote a book, you know, many books, but one

0:13:37.400 --> 0:13:39.320
<v Speaker 1>of them was called the Witch Cult in Western Europe.

0:13:39.800 --> 0:13:42.000
<v Speaker 1>So she was really into this thing and this kind

0:13:42.040 --> 0:13:44.880
<v Speaker 1>of idea, and she had a theory that she had

0:13:44.880 --> 0:13:48.760
<v Speaker 1>been promoting that European witches were in part of this

0:13:48.800 --> 0:13:52.840
<v Speaker 1>ancient fertility cult where they had you know, sacrifices and

0:13:52.880 --> 0:13:56.120
<v Speaker 1>things like that made. And she was there in Birmingham

0:13:56.120 --> 0:14:00.160
<v Speaker 1>in nineteen forty five investigating a different occult murder where

0:14:00.240 --> 0:14:03.640
<v Speaker 1>a farmer had been killed through the chest and pinned

0:14:03.679 --> 0:14:07.000
<v Speaker 1>down with a pitchfork. While she was there, she hears

0:14:07.040 --> 0:14:08.920
<v Speaker 1>about Bella and the witch elm and she's like, well,

0:14:08.960 --> 0:14:12.480
<v Speaker 1>that's right up my alley, and very quickly was like,

0:14:12.679 --> 0:14:16.319
<v Speaker 1>oh well, this was clearly some kind of witchy, witchcraft

0:14:16.360 --> 0:14:21.600
<v Speaker 1>occult sacrifice that happened, because putting corpses in a tree

0:14:22.240 --> 0:14:25.320
<v Speaker 1>is a form of ancient tree worship, and so that's

0:14:25.360 --> 0:14:29.800
<v Speaker 1>obviously what happened here. Also that you know this severed

0:14:29.840 --> 0:14:32.920
<v Speaker 1>hand that we found near the tree with the bones,

0:14:33.080 --> 0:14:36.440
<v Speaker 1>I guess that the handbones that's part of an ancient

0:14:36.520 --> 0:14:39.720
<v Speaker 1>thing called the hand of glory, which you dug up

0:14:39.720 --> 0:14:41.720
<v Speaker 1>some stuff on which I thought was super interesting.

0:14:42.600 --> 0:14:45.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's it's nothing like what it sounds like with

0:14:45.200 --> 0:14:50.400
<v Speaker 2>rind of glory. Instead, it's an old burglar's superstition that

0:14:50.440 --> 0:14:53.840
<v Speaker 2>you would take a severed hand and put a candle

0:14:53.880 --> 0:14:56.240
<v Speaker 2>in it, like make it hold a candle, or you

0:14:56.240 --> 0:14:59.880
<v Speaker 2>would basically attach candles to all five fingers that tips

0:15:00.080 --> 0:15:02.080
<v Speaker 2>of them, and then you'd light it, and if it

0:15:02.200 --> 0:15:05.360
<v Speaker 2>stayed lit, then that meant that everybody in the house

0:15:05.400 --> 0:15:07.760
<v Speaker 2>you were about to rob was asleep. If any of

0:15:07.800 --> 0:15:11.040
<v Speaker 2>them went out, that meant that there was somebody still awake,

0:15:11.080 --> 0:15:13.880
<v Speaker 2>and you shouldn't rob that house. It had nothing to

0:15:13.920 --> 0:15:19.120
<v Speaker 2>do with witchcraft and then even more so, there was

0:15:19.240 --> 0:15:24.360
<v Speaker 2>no hand found severed from the body. That doesn't appear

0:15:24.360 --> 0:15:27.720
<v Speaker 2>in any of the initial police reports. Yeah, it's it's

0:15:27.800 --> 0:15:31.200
<v Speaker 2>a great example of the lies that came up so

0:15:31.240 --> 0:15:35.160
<v Speaker 2>to legitimize this idea that it was the hand of glory.

0:15:35.720 --> 0:15:38.640
<v Speaker 2>Somebody just said along the way, maybe even Margaret Murray,

0:15:38.720 --> 0:15:40.960
<v Speaker 2>that the hand was severed and found at the trunk

0:15:40.960 --> 0:15:43.800
<v Speaker 2>of the tree. And you will see that everywhere, yea,

0:15:44.000 --> 0:15:47.320
<v Speaker 2>even in ones that don't mention witchcraft. It's just that's

0:15:47.320 --> 0:15:50.960
<v Speaker 2>how cases like this just get you know, that's how

0:15:50.960 --> 0:15:53.800
<v Speaker 2>they become unsolvable over time. But I mean, I guess

0:15:53.800 --> 0:15:56.160
<v Speaker 2>it doesn't really matter, but for some reason, it's just

0:15:56.200 --> 0:15:57.240
<v Speaker 2>always ticked me off.

0:15:57.440 --> 0:15:58.080
<v Speaker 3>No I get it.

0:15:58.440 --> 0:15:59.680
<v Speaker 1>I don't know if you have your phone, but I

0:15:59.720 --> 0:16:02.480
<v Speaker 1>just took said you a picture of and I just

0:16:02.560 --> 0:16:04.280
<v Speaker 1>want to shout it out because it looks so darn

0:16:04.320 --> 0:16:08.640
<v Speaker 1>good on Etsy, a hand of glory candle. Oh yeah,

0:16:08.760 --> 0:16:13.600
<v Speaker 1>the company is wailing dip candles and it is a

0:16:13.880 --> 0:16:19.560
<v Speaker 1>frighteningly realistic old hand with candlewicks coming out of each

0:16:19.560 --> 0:16:20.680
<v Speaker 1>of the fingers in the thump.

0:16:21.040 --> 0:16:22.720
<v Speaker 2>I got to check this out. Let me go grab

0:16:22.760 --> 0:16:33.280
<v Speaker 2>my phone. Oh my gosh, it's amazing.

0:16:33.360 --> 0:16:35.200
<v Speaker 3>So Josh really did go get his one, Like, it.

0:16:35.160 --> 0:16:37.440
<v Speaker 2>Doesn't even look old. It looks like they just severed

0:16:37.440 --> 0:16:40.400
<v Speaker 2>a hand and planted some wicks on it.

0:16:40.480 --> 0:16:42.280
<v Speaker 3>Like, well it doesn't look young.

0:16:43.520 --> 0:16:45.920
<v Speaker 2>Well okay, so it looks like an aged person's hand,

0:16:46.040 --> 0:16:47.720
<v Speaker 2>but it's not like a mummifi.

0:16:47.440 --> 0:16:49.520
<v Speaker 1>No, no, no no, it looks like a real hand. And

0:16:49.560 --> 0:16:52.000
<v Speaker 1>I'm hoping we move these things. It's for this company.

0:16:52.040 --> 0:16:54.480
<v Speaker 1>It's kind of pricey. It's eighty five bucks, but I

0:16:54.520 --> 0:16:58.240
<v Speaker 1>reckon if you amortize that over like ten Halloween's that's

0:16:58.240 --> 0:16:58.640
<v Speaker 1>not too bad.

0:16:58.680 --> 0:17:00.280
<v Speaker 3>It's like eight to fifty a year to have a

0:17:00.280 --> 0:17:00.920
<v Speaker 3>good spook.

0:17:01.880 --> 0:17:03.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I do feel like we need to change the

0:17:03.840 --> 0:17:06.160
<v Speaker 2>name Hand of Glory though, first of all, it doesn't

0:17:06.160 --> 0:17:08.960
<v Speaker 2>make sense, and secondly, sure it really does sound dirty.

0:17:09.000 --> 0:17:10.560
<v Speaker 2>Let's just be honest. Yeah.

0:17:11.040 --> 0:17:13.880
<v Speaker 1>Unfortunately, attaching the word glory to other objects, it's just.

0:17:14.200 --> 0:17:15.240
<v Speaker 3>That's not so good.

0:17:15.960 --> 0:17:18.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's true. Blaze of Glory could.

0:17:18.840 --> 0:17:24.160
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, just ask Jerry Jones. So the idea that it's

0:17:24.200 --> 0:17:28.240
<v Speaker 1>witchcraft was, like we said, really just sort of invented

0:17:28.280 --> 0:17:31.720
<v Speaker 1>by Margaret Murray who happened to be there investigating in

0:17:32.560 --> 0:17:33.720
<v Speaker 1>another case altogether.

0:17:34.480 --> 0:17:36.639
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. By the way, that was Charles Walton, who was

0:17:36.760 --> 0:17:39.720
<v Speaker 2>murdered almost certainly by his employer in a raid.

0:17:39.880 --> 0:17:41.919
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's right. So that wasn't witchy either. It was

0:17:41.960 --> 0:17:45.199
<v Speaker 1>just like I'm pitchforking your hay and I get mad

0:17:45.240 --> 0:17:46.520
<v Speaker 1>at you, and so I'm going to kill you with

0:17:46.560 --> 0:17:49.000
<v Speaker 1>the thing in my hand, right and you know what,

0:17:49.000 --> 0:17:52.560
<v Speaker 1>Actually should probably take a break here, oh, because we've

0:17:52.600 --> 0:17:55.720
<v Speaker 1>been going for nineteen minutes now and it's almost.

0:17:55.480 --> 0:17:57.800
<v Speaker 3>Kind of a good little little cliffhanger.

0:17:58.920 --> 0:18:25.960
<v Speaker 1>Okay, we'll be right back, all right. So I mentioned

0:18:25.960 --> 0:18:28.680
<v Speaker 1>a cliffhanger. It wasn't really a cliffhanger. I'm not sure

0:18:28.680 --> 0:18:31.160
<v Speaker 1>why I said that. But let's jump forward a little

0:18:31.160 --> 0:18:33.240
<v Speaker 1>bit to nineteen fifty three, where the story takes a turn.

0:18:33.840 --> 0:18:38.440
<v Speaker 1>There was a journalist there named Wilfrid. Wilfrid Byford Jones

0:18:39.240 --> 0:18:39.960
<v Speaker 1>apparently had a.

0:18:39.880 --> 0:18:44.320
<v Speaker 3>Pen name that was Quay star M.

0:18:45.160 --> 0:18:49.040
<v Speaker 2>Basically q U A E S T O R. And

0:18:49.200 --> 0:18:51.200
<v Speaker 2>you can see the A and the E joined to you.

0:18:51.359 --> 0:18:52.040
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I could see that.

0:18:52.280 --> 0:18:56.000
<v Speaker 1>But old Wilfrid wrote a bunch of very speculative articles

0:18:56.040 --> 0:18:59.840
<v Speaker 1>about Bella's murder, which only led to confusion and falsehoods.

0:19:00.960 --> 0:19:02.879
<v Speaker 1>A lot of it had to do with witches, of course,

0:19:03.000 --> 0:19:07.600
<v Speaker 1>and blaming stuff on the Roman people, you know what

0:19:07.640 --> 0:19:10.640
<v Speaker 1>they called gypsies at the time, like coming through town

0:19:11.440 --> 0:19:16.080
<v Speaker 1>doing something like that, and all this to say. One

0:19:16.080 --> 0:19:19.760
<v Speaker 1>of these stories was caught by a reader who wrote

0:19:19.760 --> 0:19:23.000
<v Speaker 1>in to Buy for Jones under the name of Anna

0:19:23.160 --> 0:19:26.480
<v Speaker 1>of Claverly and basically was like, I know the deal.

0:19:27.520 --> 0:19:30.439
<v Speaker 1>I'll just read it real quick. Finish your finish. Your

0:19:30.520 --> 0:19:33.040
<v Speaker 1>articles are e the witch elm crimes. By all means,

0:19:33.359 --> 0:19:35.480
<v Speaker 1>they are interesting to your readers, but you will never

0:19:35.520 --> 0:19:37.760
<v Speaker 1>solve the mystery. The one person who could give you

0:19:37.800 --> 0:19:41.040
<v Speaker 1>the answer is now beyond the jurisdiction of earthly courts,

0:19:42.040 --> 0:19:46.160
<v Speaker 1>in other words, dead. The affair is closed and involves

0:19:46.200 --> 0:19:49.600
<v Speaker 1>no witches, black magic or moonlight rites. The only clues

0:19:49.600 --> 0:19:51.879
<v Speaker 1>that can give you are that the person responsible for

0:19:51.920 --> 0:19:55.720
<v Speaker 1>the crime died insane in nineteen forty two, and the

0:19:55.800 --> 0:20:00.000
<v Speaker 1>victim was Dutch and arrived illegally in England about nineteen

0:20:00.200 --> 0:20:03.640
<v Speaker 1>for one, I have no wish to recall anymore.

0:20:04.240 --> 0:20:07.200
<v Speaker 2>Right, And the police said, well, tes, because you're going

0:20:07.240 --> 0:20:08.400
<v Speaker 2>to have a secret meeting with.

0:20:08.480 --> 0:20:08.880
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I guess.

0:20:08.920 --> 0:20:11.760
<v Speaker 1>They found Anna and brought her in for an interview.

0:20:12.560 --> 0:20:16.639
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and Anna's name was Una moss Up and she

0:20:16.960 --> 0:20:20.359
<v Speaker 2>eventually became Una Hainsworth. But during the time of the

0:20:20.440 --> 0:20:22.720
<v Speaker 2>murder she was married to a guy named Jack moss Up.

0:20:23.480 --> 0:20:27.119
<v Speaker 2>And I saw alternative alternatively that he worked in a

0:20:27.160 --> 0:20:32.080
<v Speaker 2>local munitions factory, or that he was a RAF instructor,

0:20:32.640 --> 0:20:35.720
<v Speaker 2>or that he worked in a factory building plane engines.

0:20:36.280 --> 0:20:41.280
<v Speaker 2>Regardless he existed. He was married to Una, and he

0:20:41.720 --> 0:20:43.920
<v Speaker 2>Una told the story to the cops that one night

0:20:44.320 --> 0:20:46.960
<v Speaker 2>Jack brought home a friend named Van Raalt, a Dutchman,

0:20:47.600 --> 0:20:51.640
<v Speaker 2>and that apparently at some point Jack admitted to Una

0:20:51.760 --> 0:20:54.920
<v Speaker 2>that he was on Van Raalt's payroll and Van Ralt

0:20:54.960 --> 0:20:57.840
<v Speaker 2>was a spy for the Nazis, and apparently Jack was

0:20:57.840 --> 0:21:00.800
<v Speaker 2>feeding him information about local factories stuff to help the

0:21:00.880 --> 0:21:05.040
<v Speaker 2>Luftwaffe plan their bombings. So Jack was a real grade

0:21:05.080 --> 0:21:08.600
<v Speaker 2>A bastard as far as things went, because he traded

0:21:08.640 --> 0:21:12.359
<v Speaker 2>his country in for some spending money. And Una said,

0:21:12.640 --> 0:21:16.760
<v Speaker 2>one day Jack came home in March or April of

0:21:16.840 --> 0:21:20.040
<v Speaker 2>nineteen forty one, came home late. He was drunk, but

0:21:20.119 --> 0:21:22.360
<v Speaker 2>he was super agitated.

0:21:21.880 --> 0:21:25.080
<v Speaker 1>Right said, you know, pale as a ghost. He said

0:21:25.119 --> 0:21:28.199
<v Speaker 1>he'd been at a pub with Van Ralt and what

0:21:28.280 --> 0:21:31.640
<v Speaker 1>he called a Dutch piece. Who was this Dutch woman.

0:21:31.760 --> 0:21:34.159
<v Speaker 1>I didn't know they use as that kind of language

0:21:34.200 --> 0:21:36.560
<v Speaker 1>back then, or maybe it meant something else. I have

0:21:36.680 --> 0:21:38.680
<v Speaker 1>no idea, but those were the words that he used,

0:21:39.119 --> 0:21:42.320
<v Speaker 1>and then he said things got awkward. You can just

0:21:42.400 --> 0:21:46.359
<v Speaker 1>chalk that up to understatement of the year. She I guess,

0:21:46.440 --> 0:21:49.720
<v Speaker 1>was also drunk, passed out in Van Ralt's car, and

0:21:49.840 --> 0:21:53.000
<v Speaker 1>Van Ralt supposedly, as this story goes, had a very

0:21:53.040 --> 0:21:56.800
<v Speaker 1>strange idea was Hey, let's go stick this woman in

0:21:56.880 --> 0:22:00.320
<v Speaker 1>that tree and she'll sober up in the more and

0:22:00.359 --> 0:22:05.639
<v Speaker 1>come to her senses. And Jack, apparently, Una said, was

0:22:06.000 --> 0:22:09.159
<v Speaker 1>never the same. He started drinking more and more, quit working,

0:22:09.680 --> 0:22:13.600
<v Speaker 1>still had this money. But eventually Una said, I'm out

0:22:13.600 --> 0:22:15.800
<v Speaker 1>of here and I'm leaving you. I'm taking our kid.

0:22:16.520 --> 0:22:18.560
<v Speaker 1>She saw him again about a year later, in nineteen

0:22:18.600 --> 0:22:21.520
<v Speaker 1>forty two, when he was really coming apart at the seam,

0:22:21.640 --> 0:22:23.720
<v Speaker 1>saying that he keeps seeing this woman in his mind

0:22:23.760 --> 0:22:26.640
<v Speaker 1>in the tree. She was leering at him, and he

0:22:26.880 --> 0:22:30.439
<v Speaker 1>was eventually committed to a mental hospital, where he died

0:22:30.560 --> 0:22:33.120
<v Speaker 1>about eight months before Bella's body was discovered.

0:22:34.000 --> 0:22:37.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he died of as far as his death certificate

0:22:37.920 --> 0:22:44.600
<v Speaker 2>is concerned, a combination of cerebral softening, myocardial degeneration, chronic nephritis,

0:22:44.800 --> 0:22:50.040
<v Speaker 2>and acute acute something insanity. I can't even remember my

0:22:50.119 --> 0:22:54.679
<v Speaker 2>own appreciation. But you put those together and that guys

0:22:54.760 --> 0:23:00.920
<v Speaker 2>like dead dead dead. So UNA's story sound like this

0:23:00.960 --> 0:23:04.320
<v Speaker 2>actually all makes sense from what I can tell. She

0:23:05.080 --> 0:23:07.639
<v Speaker 2>provided information that you wouldn't have just been able to

0:23:07.680 --> 0:23:11.320
<v Speaker 2>glean from the papers. And what's more, she didn't really

0:23:11.359 --> 0:23:16.040
<v Speaker 2>have much to gain. She wrote in anonymously and resisted

0:23:16.200 --> 0:23:19.800
<v Speaker 2>coming forward, so it wasn't like she was a publicity having.

0:23:19.560 --> 0:23:21.320
<v Speaker 3>It'd be a weird thing to make up.

0:23:22.560 --> 0:23:28.120
<v Speaker 2>She would be like a mastermind attention getter to really like, yes,

0:23:28.240 --> 0:23:30.480
<v Speaker 2>it would be a weird thing to say, to make.

0:23:30.400 --> 0:23:32.040
<v Speaker 1>Up, right, Yeah, I mean it's a weird thing to do,

0:23:32.119 --> 0:23:34.199
<v Speaker 1>to have that idea, like, hey, let's go stuff that

0:23:34.240 --> 0:23:35.040
<v Speaker 1>woman in a tree.

0:23:35.080 --> 0:23:37.560
<v Speaker 3>I mean, it's oh, God, beyond the no, that's weird.

0:23:37.600 --> 0:23:39.800
<v Speaker 1>And then it's a weird thing for that not to

0:23:39.840 --> 0:23:41.800
<v Speaker 1>have happened, and for this woman to sort of invent it.

0:23:41.800 --> 0:23:43.480
<v Speaker 3>It's all just beyond the pale.

0:23:44.119 --> 0:23:46.960
<v Speaker 2>Exactly. One of the things is though, is so like

0:23:47.040 --> 0:23:49.680
<v Speaker 2>if this was a joke, what you know, what tree?

0:23:49.800 --> 0:23:52.240
<v Speaker 2>How did van Raalt know that that tree right was

0:23:52.280 --> 0:23:54.320
<v Speaker 2>there in the first plason that it had this twelve

0:23:54.400 --> 0:23:59.320
<v Speaker 2>x twenty four you know space in it. The thing is,

0:24:00.280 --> 0:24:03.919
<v Speaker 2>this is far and away the most legitimate explanation for

0:24:04.000 --> 0:24:07.760
<v Speaker 2>what happened. This is an unsolved case. It's an unsolved mystery.

0:24:08.040 --> 0:24:10.359
<v Speaker 2>But for my money, like, this is as close as

0:24:10.359 --> 0:24:11.560
<v Speaker 2>where we're going to get. No.

0:24:11.680 --> 0:24:12.200
<v Speaker 3>I agree.

0:24:12.800 --> 0:24:16.480
<v Speaker 1>You know, cops obviously searched for Van Rault. They searched for,

0:24:17.119 --> 0:24:20.560
<v Speaker 1>you know, records wise, a Dutch national who may have.

0:24:20.760 --> 0:24:22.280
<v Speaker 3>Fit the description that Una gave.

0:24:23.200 --> 0:24:26.720
<v Speaker 1>But it went cold yet again, and then we flashed

0:24:26.720 --> 0:24:30.359
<v Speaker 1>forward to nineteen sixty eight. There's a writer named Donald

0:24:30.440 --> 0:24:33.600
<v Speaker 1>McCormick who picked up the case for a book he

0:24:33.640 --> 0:24:36.680
<v Speaker 1>was writing called Murder by Witchcraft. And this is when

0:24:36.800 --> 0:24:38.680
<v Speaker 1>he I mean, this guy doesn't have a very good

0:24:38.680 --> 0:24:40.920
<v Speaker 1>reputation as a writer because it seems like he would

0:24:41.000 --> 0:24:43.720
<v Speaker 1>just they called him a fantasy historian, like he would

0:24:43.760 --> 0:24:48.200
<v Speaker 1>just make stuff up, make a lot of weird claims

0:24:48.240 --> 0:24:51.679
<v Speaker 1>and theories. He would say things like, you know, I

0:24:51.720 --> 0:24:54.639
<v Speaker 1>was able to interview someone exclusively who was anonymous and

0:24:54.680 --> 0:24:58.280
<v Speaker 1>that no one else could talk to, and here is

0:24:58.320 --> 0:25:00.879
<v Speaker 1>that interview. And in this case, he said, you know

0:25:00.920 --> 0:25:03.040
<v Speaker 1>this interview that I got with this guy that no

0:25:03.080 --> 0:25:04.680
<v Speaker 1>one else knows about, or we'll talk to and who

0:25:04.680 --> 0:25:08.359
<v Speaker 1>shall remain anonymous was a former Nazi spy recruiter hiding

0:25:08.400 --> 0:25:12.480
<v Speaker 1>in Paraguay. And Bella was a Dutch born German spy

0:25:12.600 --> 0:25:17.360
<v Speaker 1>named Clara or Clara Bella. And I've even got Nazi

0:25:17.480 --> 0:25:20.080
<v Speaker 1>intelligence files on this. I'm not going to show you,

0:25:20.880 --> 0:25:24.480
<v Speaker 1>but it says that she parachuted into Birmingham in March

0:25:24.480 --> 0:25:26.960
<v Speaker 1>of April nineteen forty one, So the timeline fits, and

0:25:27.040 --> 0:25:30.080
<v Speaker 1>she happened to look just exactly like who was described

0:25:30.080 --> 0:25:30.480
<v Speaker 1>by Una.

0:25:31.720 --> 0:25:34.399
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so Dave points out that this guy had a

0:25:34.480 --> 0:25:37.320
<v Speaker 2>habit of making his puzzle pieces fit together a little

0:25:37.320 --> 0:25:42.359
<v Speaker 2>too neatly. So essentially he found out about Una moss

0:25:42.440 --> 0:25:47.680
<v Speaker 2>Up story and decided to make it real by corroborating

0:25:47.720 --> 0:25:52.520
<v Speaker 2>it with his imagination. His book, though, is the book

0:25:52.560 --> 0:25:54.960
<v Speaker 2>that we get the very famous pictures that I was

0:25:55.080 --> 0:25:58.160
<v Speaker 2>familiar that caught my attention as a kid. But it's

0:25:58.200 --> 0:26:01.159
<v Speaker 2>really important to point out here tree that he shows

0:26:01.320 --> 0:26:03.960
<v Speaker 2>is not the tree that she was found in. You

0:26:04.040 --> 0:26:06.840
<v Speaker 2>said toward the beginning of the episode that the cops

0:26:06.920 --> 0:26:09.680
<v Speaker 2>chopped that tree down to look for more evidence to it,

0:26:09.880 --> 0:26:13.159
<v Speaker 2>so that tree doesn't exist anymore. And yet that's that

0:26:13.320 --> 0:26:17.080
<v Speaker 2>picture that Donald McCormick put forth as the tree is

0:26:17.119 --> 0:26:19.159
<v Speaker 2>what you see on the internet still today is the

0:26:19.200 --> 0:26:22.719
<v Speaker 2>tree she was found in, and that that's possibly not

0:26:22.760 --> 0:26:24.800
<v Speaker 2>even the kind of tree that she might not have

0:26:24.840 --> 0:26:27.760
<v Speaker 2>been found in a witch elm. The cops mentioned that

0:26:27.920 --> 0:26:30.840
<v Speaker 2>she was found in an elm, but that's it. And

0:26:30.880 --> 0:26:33.600
<v Speaker 2>then apparently some people have been able to examine the

0:26:33.640 --> 0:26:36.359
<v Speaker 2>photos of the original tree and said it's not a

0:26:36.400 --> 0:26:39.400
<v Speaker 2>witch elm because you don't cut witch elms down that way.

0:26:41.520 --> 0:26:44.119
<v Speaker 3>That story about you seeing that picture, when did that happen?

0:26:47.760 --> 0:26:50.240
<v Speaker 2>I was probably like ten to eleven. I think, probably

0:26:50.240 --> 0:26:52.160
<v Speaker 2>in like a school library.

0:26:51.760 --> 0:26:54.160
<v Speaker 3>Book or something I thought you saw recently.

0:26:54.200 --> 0:26:57.440
<v Speaker 2>Okay, no, no, no, that's that's how I was walking around

0:26:57.480 --> 0:26:59.360
<v Speaker 2>with this case for that many years, Like I saw

0:26:59.400 --> 0:27:00.960
<v Speaker 2>it in some book when I was a kid.

0:27:01.000 --> 0:27:02.639
<v Speaker 3>I gotcha, I can tell I can.

0:27:03.000 --> 0:27:05.639
<v Speaker 2>I can even remember like the cellphone covering of the

0:27:06.080 --> 0:27:08.960
<v Speaker 2>book cover, even feel it my fingers right now. I

0:27:08.960 --> 0:27:11.320
<v Speaker 2>can smell it. That's it smells awesome.

0:27:11.320 --> 0:27:13.040
<v Speaker 1>It makes much more sense because you were talking in

0:27:13.080 --> 0:27:15.600
<v Speaker 1>those sort of ways about it, and I thought it

0:27:15.640 --> 0:27:18.359
<v Speaker 1>was recent, and I was like, that's a weird nostalgia

0:27:18.440 --> 0:27:20.120
<v Speaker 1>for something that happened a few weeks ago.

0:27:20.920 --> 0:27:22.760
<v Speaker 2>It makes me nostalgic for yesterday.

0:27:22.840 --> 0:27:26.320
<v Speaker 3>I can still remember that moment in December.

0:27:27.240 --> 0:27:28.560
<v Speaker 2>Right, No, not like that.

0:27:28.600 --> 0:27:30.680
<v Speaker 3>I got little kid stuff, all right.

0:27:30.760 --> 0:27:35.520
<v Speaker 1>So that's that book aside. Another twist came in twenty thirteen.

0:27:36.320 --> 0:27:39.639
<v Speaker 1>The Independent ran a story about Bella, connecting it to

0:27:39.800 --> 0:27:45.359
<v Speaker 1>a spy named Joseph Jacobs, who's a German spy who

0:27:45.600 --> 0:27:49.520
<v Speaker 1>evidently parachuted into a field near Cambridge in February nineteen

0:27:49.560 --> 0:27:54.200
<v Speaker 1>forty one, got hurt really badly, could not walk firer's

0:27:54.240 --> 0:27:58.080
<v Speaker 1>pistol in the air to attract some help ideally, and.

0:27:58.080 --> 0:27:58.960
<v Speaker 2>Then said, hey fuss.

0:27:59.760 --> 0:28:00.000
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

0:28:00.080 --> 0:28:02.119
<v Speaker 1>So the cops come and he's in police custody. He

0:28:02.160 --> 0:28:05.800
<v Speaker 1>has a wireless transmitter, a fake ID, almost five hundred

0:28:05.840 --> 0:28:10.240
<v Speaker 1>pounds in cash, but also a headshot a photograph of

0:28:10.280 --> 0:28:14.120
<v Speaker 1>a woman, but like a professional headshot of this attractive,

0:28:14.160 --> 0:28:16.919
<v Speaker 1>smiling woman, and on the back of it in English

0:28:16.960 --> 0:28:20.120
<v Speaker 1>it said, my dear, I love you Forever your Clara

0:28:20.320 --> 0:28:24.920
<v Speaker 1>Landau July nineteen forty.

0:28:25.160 --> 0:28:28.080
<v Speaker 2>Okay, yeah, so there's a lot that's weird about this.

0:28:28.240 --> 0:28:32.359
<v Speaker 2>So Clara Landau, this picture of Clara Landau was actually

0:28:32.400 --> 0:28:35.440
<v Speaker 2>a picture of Clara Bowery, who was a well known

0:28:35.440 --> 0:28:37.760
<v Speaker 2>I saw her described as a movie star, but at

0:28:37.840 --> 0:28:40.520
<v Speaker 2>least a movie actress and a cabaret singer, a German

0:28:40.600 --> 0:28:45.680
<v Speaker 2>Lily bunchdu and so yeah, exactly, I think that's almost

0:28:45.760 --> 0:28:49.320
<v Speaker 2>exactly who this could have been based on. She was.

0:28:49.440 --> 0:28:53.000
<v Speaker 2>Apparently as far as Joseph Jakobs has has said to

0:28:53.200 --> 0:28:56.320
<v Speaker 2>m I five in multiple interviews that this was his

0:28:56.480 --> 0:29:00.720
<v Speaker 2>mistress that they met in Berlin, Bowerley singing with a

0:29:00.760 --> 0:29:03.800
<v Speaker 2>group called the Bernard Eda Orchestra. That just goes to

0:29:03.800 --> 0:29:09.000
<v Speaker 2>show you Dave's dedication to research, and that Jakobs and

0:29:09.200 --> 0:29:13.480
<v Speaker 2>Bowerley were both crypto Nazis, meaning that they were not

0:29:13.600 --> 0:29:17.160
<v Speaker 2>actual Nazis, they were pretending to be Nazis, and they

0:29:17.240 --> 0:29:20.600
<v Speaker 2>had fooled the Germans, or at least Yakob had, into

0:29:21.560 --> 0:29:24.480
<v Speaker 2>taking him on as a spy and sending him to England.

0:29:24.760 --> 0:29:26.880
<v Speaker 2>He planned to get to England, defect and make his

0:29:26.920 --> 0:29:30.000
<v Speaker 2>way to America, but first he wanted to set up

0:29:30.040 --> 0:29:33.560
<v Speaker 2>a fake operation enough to convince the Germans to send

0:29:33.600 --> 0:29:38.720
<v Speaker 2>Bowery after him. And this this is it, that's it

0:29:39.000 --> 0:29:43.600
<v Speaker 2>like that, That's what Joseph Jakob said. But The Independent

0:29:43.760 --> 0:29:46.360
<v Speaker 2>was like, Oho, let's fill in some blanks and come

0:29:46.440 --> 0:29:49.640
<v Speaker 2>up with our own theory Donald McCormick style.

0:29:49.880 --> 0:29:53.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, they did some research. They looked for obviously, for

0:29:53.560 --> 0:29:59.360
<v Speaker 1>records for Clara Bowery, and they did find information and confirm, yes,

0:29:59.440 --> 0:30:02.040
<v Speaker 1>she was a cabaret singer in Germany. She would have

0:30:02.040 --> 0:30:04.480
<v Speaker 1>been thirty five years old at the time of the murder,

0:30:04.600 --> 0:30:10.120
<v Speaker 1>just like the skeleton, you know, seemingly confirmed. But had

0:30:10.200 --> 0:30:13.040
<v Speaker 1>she come to England was the big question. All they

0:30:13.080 --> 0:30:17.600
<v Speaker 1>found was a Clara with a K, Clara Sophie Bowerley,

0:30:17.960 --> 0:30:21.040
<v Speaker 1>who was thirty five, who did go to Germany, I'm sorry,

0:30:21.080 --> 0:30:24.160
<v Speaker 1>from Germany to England and stayed from nineteen thirty to

0:30:24.200 --> 0:30:24.760
<v Speaker 1>thirty two.

0:30:25.400 --> 0:30:26.680
<v Speaker 3>But that was kind of it.

0:30:27.120 --> 0:30:29.960
<v Speaker 1>No information at all about what she did in England,

0:30:30.000 --> 0:30:31.640
<v Speaker 1>but they ran with it anyway.

0:30:31.960 --> 0:30:33.600
<v Speaker 2>They did, I mean think about it, so like she

0:30:33.760 --> 0:30:37.520
<v Speaker 2>left a full eight nine years before Bella and the

0:30:37.760 --> 0:30:42.080
<v Speaker 2>which Elm happened was killed. Yeah, and yet yeah. The

0:30:42.120 --> 0:30:46.040
<v Speaker 2>Independent's like, so what so based on all this with

0:30:46.080 --> 0:30:48.640
<v Speaker 2>a bunch of pie filling that they mashed in with it,

0:30:48.720 --> 0:30:52.200
<v Speaker 2>the Independent came up with a new theory and I say,

0:30:52.240 --> 0:30:54.000
<v Speaker 2>we take a little break and come back and talk

0:30:54.040 --> 0:30:54.720
<v Speaker 2>about it after this.

0:30:54.800 --> 0:30:55.000
<v Speaker 3>Ooh.

0:31:20.360 --> 0:31:22.360
<v Speaker 2>So, like I was saying, that Independent came up with

0:31:22.400 --> 0:31:24.440
<v Speaker 2>their own pet theory for the Bella and the Witch

0:31:24.440 --> 0:31:27.280
<v Speaker 2>Elm case. And what they said was okay. So Clara

0:31:27.320 --> 0:31:32.080
<v Speaker 2>Clara Bowerley had come to England in the thirties and

0:31:32.400 --> 0:31:35.400
<v Speaker 2>was a performer, a cabaret singer here as well as

0:31:35.960 --> 0:31:39.680
<v Speaker 2>in Germany, and that she became known as Clara Bella,

0:31:39.880 --> 0:31:41.880
<v Speaker 2>like maybe there is a stage name she adopted or

0:31:41.920 --> 0:31:44.000
<v Speaker 2>something like that, but it was a mashup of her

0:31:44.080 --> 0:31:47.719
<v Speaker 2>name Clara Bowerley, and that was the foundation that they

0:31:47.760 --> 0:31:48.800
<v Speaker 2>based everything else on.

0:31:48.960 --> 0:31:52.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, they said, here's what she did. She parachuted into

0:31:52.840 --> 0:31:55.920
<v Speaker 1>England in nineteen forty one. She was, you know, trying

0:31:55.920 --> 0:31:58.760
<v Speaker 1>to catch up with her parachuting boyfriend, Joseph Yakups. And

0:31:58.800 --> 0:31:59.880
<v Speaker 1>they thought that was the only way to get it

0:31:59.920 --> 0:32:02.560
<v Speaker 1>to a country, I guess, to drop into the middle

0:32:02.600 --> 0:32:05.200
<v Speaker 1>of a field. And they said, hey, what if this

0:32:05.280 --> 0:32:08.760
<v Speaker 1>Clara was who was in that tree who was killed

0:32:08.760 --> 0:32:12.480
<v Speaker 1>by Van Rault, Like we think that that's who was

0:32:12.480 --> 0:32:16.120
<v Speaker 1>in the witch elm, and that graffiti artist had to

0:32:16.160 --> 0:32:20.560
<v Speaker 1>have known that Clarabella Orbella was her name and tried

0:32:20.560 --> 0:32:22.360
<v Speaker 1>to get justice for this murder.

0:32:22.680 --> 0:32:26.480
<v Speaker 2>Right, and they walked away like this. Yeah, could you

0:32:26.480 --> 0:32:27.560
<v Speaker 2>hear that? Did that come through?

0:32:27.720 --> 0:32:29.760
<v Speaker 3>Yeah? I think so?

0:32:29.760 --> 0:32:34.080
<v Speaker 2>So. Yeah, So there's some problems with this theory. Number one,

0:32:35.280 --> 0:32:39.400
<v Speaker 2>she was not Clara Bowerley was not five feet tall.

0:32:39.480 --> 0:32:41.640
<v Speaker 2>She was approaching six feet tall.

0:32:41.720 --> 0:32:44.360
<v Speaker 1>That's the biggest problem with this, Right, that's a pretty

0:32:44.400 --> 0:32:44.920
<v Speaker 1>big problem.

0:32:44.960 --> 0:32:47.800
<v Speaker 2>I would I would say that there's an even bigger

0:32:47.840 --> 0:32:50.360
<v Speaker 2>problem than this, and that is that she died a

0:32:50.400 --> 0:32:55.080
<v Speaker 2>full year after Bella did in a German hospital of

0:32:55.080 --> 0:32:56.560
<v Speaker 2>a barbituate overdose.

0:32:56.720 --> 0:32:56.960
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

0:32:57.240 --> 0:33:00.000
<v Speaker 1>Those two very large problems with this story. That didn't

0:33:00.080 --> 0:33:01.479
<v Speaker 1>not keep them from running the story.

0:33:02.360 --> 0:33:05.480
<v Speaker 2>No, and this is twenty thirteen. This isn't the Independent,

0:33:05.600 --> 0:33:08.640
<v Speaker 2>you know decades ago. This was well, I guess a

0:33:08.760 --> 0:33:11.680
<v Speaker 2>decade ago, but still it was recent enough that they

0:33:11.680 --> 0:33:15.000
<v Speaker 2>should know better than making up basically new theories and

0:33:15.600 --> 0:33:19.120
<v Speaker 2>printing them as if they're basically fact. So one of

0:33:19.160 --> 0:33:22.080
<v Speaker 2>the good things that came out of this was of

0:33:22.200 --> 0:33:26.640
<v Speaker 2>Yoseph Jakobs being brought into this case, although just totally

0:33:26.920 --> 0:33:29.800
<v Speaker 2>like that was the independent that did that. That was like,

0:33:29.880 --> 0:33:32.520
<v Speaker 2>he was not mentioned that he was not tangential the case.

0:33:32.520 --> 0:33:36.120
<v Speaker 2>He had nothing to do with it, basically, but his granddaughter,

0:33:36.320 --> 0:33:39.520
<v Speaker 2>Giselle K Jakobs or Jacobs, I'm not sure which one

0:33:39.560 --> 0:33:42.320
<v Speaker 2>she goes by. She has a PhD In ancient history,

0:33:42.600 --> 0:33:45.920
<v Speaker 2>so she knows about being a historian, and she's applied

0:33:45.960 --> 0:33:48.080
<v Speaker 2>some of that to the Bella and the witch Elm

0:33:48.520 --> 0:33:52.800
<v Speaker 2>case on a website called Yosef Jakobs dot info and

0:33:52.840 --> 0:33:56.560
<v Speaker 2>it is very well researched and well written information about

0:33:56.560 --> 0:33:58.840
<v Speaker 2>this case. So if you're interested in it at all,

0:33:58.840 --> 0:33:59.600
<v Speaker 2>go check that out.

0:33:59.720 --> 0:34:04.520
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, finally, which is great if you were wondering about DNA,

0:34:04.600 --> 0:34:07.080
<v Speaker 1>you know sometimes they can you know, find DNA on

0:34:07.160 --> 0:34:13.080
<v Speaker 1>old stuff. But everything has been lost. Apparently all everything

0:34:13.760 --> 0:34:16.360
<v Speaker 1>was being passed around and moved around in different boxes

0:34:16.360 --> 0:34:18.680
<v Speaker 1>and different labs. And this is in the nineteen forties

0:34:18.680 --> 0:34:22.040
<v Speaker 1>and fifties, and no one knows if it even exists

0:34:22.080 --> 0:34:24.720
<v Speaker 1>at all anymore, if it's you know, hidden away besides

0:34:25.000 --> 0:34:28.720
<v Speaker 1>the arc of the Covenant in some warehouse or something,

0:34:30.040 --> 0:34:30.239
<v Speaker 1>you know.

0:34:30.440 --> 0:34:32.879
<v Speaker 2>I mean it's possible that someone will find it at

0:34:32.880 --> 0:34:33.759
<v Speaker 2>some point, you know.

0:34:33.880 --> 0:34:35.799
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it might still be out there, or it could

0:34:35.800 --> 0:34:38.520
<v Speaker 1>have been lost, or a building could have burned down

0:34:38.520 --> 0:34:41.319
<v Speaker 1>like who knows. Like our lost episode, Jerry has no idea.

0:34:41.960 --> 0:34:45.760
<v Speaker 2>No idea. That's gone for good. It's not in any warehouse.

0:34:45.360 --> 0:34:46.799
<v Speaker 3>Anywhere, which is probably a good thing.

0:34:48.239 --> 0:34:50.600
<v Speaker 2>And now we'll wrap up this episode with five minutes

0:34:50.680 --> 0:34:54.080
<v Speaker 2>on the ancient woodland management technique of coppacing.

0:34:55.480 --> 0:34:56.000
<v Speaker 3>Very funny.

0:34:57.360 --> 0:34:58.160
<v Speaker 2>You got anything else?

0:34:58.320 --> 0:34:59.520
<v Speaker 3>I have nothing else?

0:35:00.520 --> 0:35:03.080
<v Speaker 2>Well, go forth if this floated your boat and read

0:35:03.160 --> 0:35:05.880
<v Speaker 2>more about Bella and the Witch elm the case. Just

0:35:05.920 --> 0:35:08.880
<v Speaker 2>be wary of where your information's from. And there's a

0:35:08.880 --> 0:35:10.840
<v Speaker 2>lot more to it. There's a lot, well, there's a

0:35:10.840 --> 0:35:13.680
<v Speaker 2>lot more out there to read. How about that? And

0:35:13.719 --> 0:35:15.839
<v Speaker 2>in the meantime, it's time for listener mail.

0:35:18.400 --> 0:35:21.200
<v Speaker 1>I'm going to read this and preface it with we

0:35:21.320 --> 0:35:25.040
<v Speaker 1>got quite a few emails. Remember when you tied John Williams.

0:35:25.880 --> 0:35:28.480
<v Speaker 1>I guess Star Wars people are going to be so mad.

0:35:28.600 --> 0:35:30.600
<v Speaker 1>Is it Darth Vader's theme or the Imperial Death March?

0:35:30.640 --> 0:35:33.240
<v Speaker 2>One of those Imperial something or other.

0:35:33.400 --> 0:35:37.840
<v Speaker 3>Something like that. You tied that to who was it bach, I.

0:35:38.080 --> 0:35:40.080
<v Speaker 2>Don't remember Chopin's funeral march n.

0:35:40.239 --> 0:35:41.200
<v Speaker 3>That's that's right.

0:35:41.239 --> 0:35:43.959
<v Speaker 1>And we got quite a few music people that wrote

0:35:44.000 --> 0:35:46.680
<v Speaker 1>in and were you know, gave us the older hey,

0:35:47.280 --> 0:35:50.960
<v Speaker 1>will actually these differences here and there and here and

0:35:51.000 --> 0:35:54.520
<v Speaker 1>there fair enough. Not knocking those people for knowing much

0:35:54.520 --> 0:35:56.000
<v Speaker 1>more about that kind of thing than us.

0:35:56.680 --> 0:35:57.839
<v Speaker 3>You just know what your ears told you.

0:35:58.960 --> 0:36:01.879
<v Speaker 2>Well. Also, I n Williams and she was like, yep,

0:36:02.440 --> 0:36:04.200
<v Speaker 2>I love that funeral march.

0:36:04.239 --> 0:36:06.040
<v Speaker 3>I keep up the good work boys.

0:36:08.000 --> 0:36:10.520
<v Speaker 1>He wrote our theme song too, by the way, sure

0:36:10.840 --> 0:36:13.040
<v Speaker 1>no one knows that, no, but this is from lad

0:36:13.080 --> 0:36:15.399
<v Speaker 1>who gets your back. Hey, guys, hope all is well.

0:36:15.880 --> 0:36:20.800
<v Speaker 1>Finally somebody said it. Josh John Williams likes to borrow

0:36:20.840 --> 0:36:22.040
<v Speaker 1>heavily from classic works.

0:36:22.640 --> 0:36:25.600
<v Speaker 3>Please listen to Lesaca.

0:36:25.600 --> 0:36:29.879
<v Speaker 1>Doon the Right of Spring by Stravinsky, and you will

0:36:29.880 --> 0:36:32.160
<v Speaker 1>hear the theme from Jaws, as well as many other

0:36:32.239 --> 0:36:36.319
<v Speaker 1>hits that mister Williams has taken on loan. Not saying

0:36:36.360 --> 0:36:38.640
<v Speaker 1>he doesn't done a lot for the genre, but if

0:36:38.640 --> 0:36:41.120
<v Speaker 1>this is a sampling issue, he'd be paying a lot

0:36:41.160 --> 0:36:44.680
<v Speaker 1>of money to those composers. Keep up the work and

0:36:44.760 --> 0:36:47.720
<v Speaker 1>stay sexy and that is from Ladd.

0:36:48.680 --> 0:36:52.000
<v Speaker 2>Thanks Lad, appreciate that. Loved your turn as the little

0:36:52.080 --> 0:36:53.160
<v Speaker 2>Kid and Lost Boys.

0:36:53.239 --> 0:36:56.160
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and I oh, by the way, we watched The

0:36:56.200 --> 0:36:59.359
<v Speaker 1>Lost Boys with Ruby the other night. Would she think

0:36:59.400 --> 0:37:01.719
<v Speaker 1>that's her second and sort of adult movie in a

0:37:01.800 --> 0:37:02.919
<v Speaker 1>row after a Terminator two?

0:37:03.320 --> 0:37:03.799
<v Speaker 3>She loved it.

0:37:03.800 --> 0:37:05.799
<v Speaker 1>I looked it up beforehand and I was like, surely Lost

0:37:05.800 --> 0:37:07.920
<v Speaker 1>Boys has some gratuitous nudity or.

0:37:07.840 --> 0:37:10.280
<v Speaker 3>Some awful like sexy stuff, and it really doesn't.

0:37:10.320 --> 0:37:13.160
<v Speaker 1>It's some kind of gruesome stuff. But she's totally good

0:37:13.160 --> 0:37:15.440
<v Speaker 1>with that and a little bit of language, and she

0:37:15.560 --> 0:37:18.560
<v Speaker 1>knows all that stuff. And she really dug the Lost

0:37:18.560 --> 0:37:20.480
<v Speaker 1>Boys because she likes all that spooky, witchy stuff.

0:37:20.960 --> 0:37:23.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's a really good movie.

0:37:22.880 --> 0:37:25.000
<v Speaker 1>And you know, it was pretty fun. It holds up

0:37:25.040 --> 0:37:26.839
<v Speaker 1>in the way that eighties movies like that hold up.

0:37:27.360 --> 0:37:30.479
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it definitely did. I saw it not too long ago,

0:37:30.520 --> 0:37:32.879
<v Speaker 2>and I was like, this is like I said it before,

0:37:32.920 --> 0:37:34.200
<v Speaker 2>I'll say it again. It's a good movie.

0:37:34.239 --> 0:37:34.800
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I agreed.

0:37:36.239 --> 0:37:39.560
<v Speaker 2>Well, thanks a lot, Lad. Again, I appreciate being backed up.

0:37:39.680 --> 0:37:42.360
<v Speaker 2>That was very refreshing. And if you want to be

0:37:42.440 --> 0:37:44.640
<v Speaker 2>like Lad and back me up about some stand I

0:37:44.719 --> 0:37:46.719
<v Speaker 2>took that everybody tried to shout me down on and

0:37:46.760 --> 0:37:48.480
<v Speaker 2>I said no, I'm not going to be shouted down.

0:37:48.520 --> 0:37:50.279
<v Speaker 2>They're like, yes you are, and I said no, I'm not,

0:37:50.600 --> 0:37:52.280
<v Speaker 2>and then it just kind of hung out there until

0:37:52.320 --> 0:37:55.120
<v Speaker 2>you email in. We love that kind of thing. You

0:37:55.160 --> 0:37:58.239
<v Speaker 2>can send us that email to stuff podcast at iHeartRadio

0:37:58.280 --> 0:38:02.120
<v Speaker 2>dot com.

0:38:02.280 --> 0:38:04.600
<v Speaker 3>Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio.

0:38:05.080 --> 0:38:09.440
<v Speaker 1>For more podcasts myheart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

0:38:09.520 --> 0:38:11.360
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