1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:14,880 Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Jerry. 3 00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:19,480 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, there's Chuck. Sorry Chuck, and this is 4 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:22,600 Speaker 2: Stuff you Should Know. And we're off to a weird, weird. 5 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:24,640 Speaker 3: Start on that's right, I forgot I was here. 6 00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:29,040 Speaker 2: I just I don't know what happened. My reference copies 7 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:29,640 Speaker 2: on the fritz. 8 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:31,960 Speaker 1: Hey, real quick before we get started, And this just 9 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:36,280 Speaker 1: hit me. I went to a work function yesterday wherein 10 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:41,120 Speaker 1: we celebrated Jonathan Strickland. Are still our colleague, but our 11 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:43,520 Speaker 1: old buddy from the old House Stuff Works Early Stuff 12 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:46,680 Speaker 1: podcast days, who was the long long, long, long long 13 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:49,479 Speaker 1: time host of Tech Stuff Yep, and he has hung 14 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:53,319 Speaker 1: up his tech boots to as far as hosting that show. 15 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:56,760 Speaker 1: He's still around and executive producing a slate of shows, 16 00:00:56,800 --> 00:01:00,320 Speaker 1: but he decided not to host Tech Stuff any long younger, 17 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 1: and we just it was great seeing him. It's been 18 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:06,240 Speaker 1: quite a while and he's doing great. And just hats 19 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 1: off to Jonathan and what a great body of work 20 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 1: he's he's given the world over all those years. 21 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:14,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, he has been. Hats off to you, John, like 22 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 2: that's you should be very proud. We're all proud of you, for. 23 00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:19,640 Speaker 1: Sure, but keep that your head on strickling because you 24 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 1: got that bald head. We don't want to get sunburned. 25 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:26,119 Speaker 2: Wow, that was really cool. If you bring up, I'm 26 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 2: glad you did. 27 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:27,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, it was good. 28 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:29,040 Speaker 1: I saw some of the old crew, and it's just 29 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:31,000 Speaker 1: it's been too long because you know, we don't go 30 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 1: to the office much anymore, and nobody does, so it's 31 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 1: not like if I went there, I would see all 32 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 1: the old gang. 33 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:38,520 Speaker 3: But it was good. It was nice to catch up 34 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 3: with some people. 35 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:41,399 Speaker 2: That's cool, man. Yeah, you sent me and Jerry some 36 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:42,120 Speaker 2: good pictures. 37 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:43,319 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's fun. 38 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:47,400 Speaker 2: Okay, Well, onto the murder of a woman right? 39 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 3: Awful. 40 00:01:50,240 --> 00:01:55,320 Speaker 2: So this is a pretty true, pretty famous true crime case, 41 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 2: like really really famous. I'm not sure if you'd heard 42 00:01:57,920 --> 00:01:58,920 Speaker 2: of it before, have you? 43 00:01:58,960 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 3: No? 44 00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 2: No, I'm not sure why or where it first got me, 45 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 2: but I'm pretty sure. So I think Dave helped us 46 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 2: with this. And he linked to a pair of pictures 47 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 2: of a tree and then a diagram of the woman, 48 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:17,120 Speaker 2: the murdered woman in this case, and like, you know, 49 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:23,960 Speaker 2: like almost an anatomical diagram of what was found where 50 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:25,520 Speaker 2: and what she was wearing and all that, and it 51 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 2: has like a real Ripley's believe it or not look 52 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 2: to it. The drawing does, and those things are as 53 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 2: etched in my brain as pictures from like the Time 54 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:37,280 Speaker 2: Life paranormal series Wow, from when I was a kid, 55 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:39,600 Speaker 2: So at some point I was exposed to this. So 56 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:41,919 Speaker 2: it's one of those things that I've always just kind 57 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 2: of known about, but I didn't know any of the 58 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:48,440 Speaker 2: details really, and it's a truly fascinating case that I 59 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 2: think one of the things that makes it appealing too 60 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:55,920 Speaker 2: is there's this level of this sense of like witchcraft 61 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 2: or some sort of like Pegan Colts involved or something 62 00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:03,360 Speaker 2: like that. And it turns out that that's not true, 63 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:05,840 Speaker 2: that's not the case. That a lot of it is 64 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 2: just associated with the tree, that she was found in 65 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 2: a witch elm, which has nothing to do with witches, 66 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:15,520 Speaker 2: and that she might not have even been found in 67 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:17,920 Speaker 2: that kind of tree. So let's get into it, Chuck, 68 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:20,240 Speaker 2: because I like confusing everybody from the outset. 69 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:24,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, this definitely smacked of like Tales from the Crypt 70 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:28,520 Speaker 1: or a Weird Stories entree or something like that. This 71 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:31,040 Speaker 1: goes back to World War Two in April of nineteen 72 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 1: forty three, specifically Robert Hart, Bob Farmer, Tommy Willets, and 73 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 1: Fred Payne, four teenage boys went to what was called 74 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:43,440 Speaker 1: the or what is called I guess Hagley Wood. This 75 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:45,000 Speaker 1: was a time in World War two where they were 76 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 1: rationing things like food in Britain. So they were looking 77 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:50,120 Speaker 1: for food. They were looking to catch some rabbits or 78 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:53,680 Speaker 1: maybe get some eggs from bird's nest and fifteen year 79 00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 1: old Bob Farmer saw an opening in a tree, went 80 00:03:57,280 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 1: up to check it out and it looked like an eggshell. 81 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 1: It turned out it was a skull, and so he 82 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:05,720 Speaker 1: got a stick, wrapped it with some cloth and lifted 83 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 1: the skull up out of there, and they were like, 84 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 1: what kind of animal is this? Turns out it was 85 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:12,840 Speaker 1: a human animal. It had a clump of hair, a 86 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:16,360 Speaker 1: couple of crooked teeth had clearly been munched on by 87 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 1: some animals, and so they were like, weird trespassing, and 88 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:22,279 Speaker 1: we don't want to get like most kids would do, like, uh, 89 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:23,440 Speaker 1: we don't want to get in trouble, so we're just 90 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:24,800 Speaker 1: going to put it back and never talk about it. 91 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 2: Yeah. I think their quote was home and a home 92 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:31,600 Speaker 2: and a home plus X. So yeah, they could have 93 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:33,919 Speaker 2: gotten in decent amount of trouble. I couldn't find exactly what, 94 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:36,400 Speaker 2: but they were poaching, and poaching was a big deal 95 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:39,280 Speaker 2: still then. I think it still is now, but it's 96 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 2: probably lost a little bit of its you know, punishment. 97 00:04:42,279 --> 00:04:46,680 Speaker 2: Sure regardless the I guess the oldest boy, Tommy Willitts, 98 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:50,479 Speaker 2: he was seventeen despite this vow, went right home and 99 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:53,560 Speaker 2: told his parents. Yeah, and I say, good boy, Tommy Willitts, 100 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:56,120 Speaker 2: because he it was clear to him like we just 101 00:04:56,160 --> 00:04:58,960 Speaker 2: found a human skull in a tree and that's something 102 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 2: that we need to talk about. So very quickly the 103 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 2: police were called in and they started to investigate, and 104 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:07,920 Speaker 2: they brought in a guy named James Webster who was 105 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:13,160 Speaker 2: a pathologist with the Birmingham Forensic Laboratory, and he essentially 106 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:17,719 Speaker 2: led the initial investigation and came to some pretty good 107 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:21,039 Speaker 2: basic conclusions. Because there's one thing to know about this case. 108 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:27,479 Speaker 2: It has been hijacked and molded in all sorts of 109 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:30,719 Speaker 2: different ways, and you really have to be careful that 110 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:34,719 Speaker 2: you're aware of what source you're getting your information from 111 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:37,240 Speaker 2: because it's just one of those cases that people have 112 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:39,239 Speaker 2: loved to talk about and add to and lie about 113 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 2: and do all sorts of stuff with. But the stuff 114 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:45,719 Speaker 2: that comes from James Webster is definitely Legit was he 115 00:05:45,839 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 2: first hand examined the body. 116 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:48,240 Speaker 3: That's right. 117 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 1: So he cut this tree open. He found most of 118 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:56,080 Speaker 1: the skeleton in. There was missing, some small bones and 119 00:05:56,120 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 1: I think they got a tibia nearby. 120 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:02,040 Speaker 3: There was pieces of clothing, There was a shoe, there 121 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:02,480 Speaker 3: was a. 122 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:05,560 Speaker 1: Wedding ring, and they you know, when you get a 123 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 1: skeleton like that, you're going to reconstruct it and try 124 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:09,520 Speaker 1: and figure out who this person was or what they 125 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:13,040 Speaker 1: may have been, you know, shaped like right, And they said, well, 126 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 1: this is a woman probably about thirty five five feet tall, 127 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 1: so you know, quite quite short, with brown hair because 128 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 1: I think I mentioned those little bit of hair very 129 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:24,800 Speaker 1: gruesomely still on the skull. 130 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, did you see the picture of that. 131 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:27,240 Speaker 3: I did. 132 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:32,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, And she's probably been gone about eighteen months, maybe longer. 133 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 1: And like I mentioned, animals had gotten into these bones 134 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:38,400 Speaker 1: and you know, munched on them some, right. 135 00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:41,720 Speaker 2: So Webster was like, I'm pretty sure this is a murder. 136 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:44,039 Speaker 2: There's a few things that stand out to me. One 137 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 2: stuffed into the jaw pretty deeply into the jaw was 138 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 2: a piece of the taffeta from the woman's dress. Yeah, 139 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:55,919 Speaker 2: and enough that it was enough of the piece of 140 00:06:55,960 --> 00:06:58,920 Speaker 2: the dress that he was like, this could have asphyxiated 141 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:00,960 Speaker 2: somebody if it was stuffed into their mouth while they 142 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:01,720 Speaker 2: were still alive. 143 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:02,159 Speaker 3: Yeh. 144 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:06,480 Speaker 2: Probably wasn't a dress eater, so maybe this is murder. 145 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 2: He also said that there's no way that this person 146 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 2: was placed into this tiny opening. So it was about 147 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 2: twelve inches by twenty four inches, like say a third 148 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 2: of a meter by two thirds of a meter, Yeah, 149 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:27,360 Speaker 2: which is a very tiny place, even for a five 150 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:31,640 Speaker 2: foot woman. Like that's a I get claustrophobic just thinking 151 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 2: about that. And that if they were dead already, then 152 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:39,400 Speaker 2: like rigor mortis would have prevented them from being pushed 153 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 2: into there even And then also, this is not the 154 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:44,480 Speaker 2: kind of place that a person's just going to crawl 155 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:48,000 Speaker 2: into on their own accord, Like they were placed in there, 156 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 2: possibly while alive still, which is one of the ghastlier 157 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:55,680 Speaker 2: aspects of this case. And so Webster said, you know, 158 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 2: you put all this together, I'm pretty sure this is 159 00:07:57,760 --> 00:07:59,080 Speaker 2: a murder that we're looking at. 160 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 1: The Other thing they had to go on was as 161 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 1: far as clues go was they had most of the 162 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:06,560 Speaker 1: jaw intact, and so they thought, hey, maybe we can find. 163 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 3: A dental match. They were not able to. 164 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:12,680 Speaker 1: Now that they had this kind of rough physical description, 165 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 1: they thought, well, let's come through missing persons reports. Did 166 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:18,880 Speaker 1: not find anything matching that, and so the case went 167 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 1: cold for a while. They just kind of put it 168 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:25,240 Speaker 1: on the shelf. Hagleywood itself, we should describe it a 169 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:27,880 Speaker 1: little bit. It is on a private estate, but it 170 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:30,320 Speaker 1: wasn't like gated and walled up such that you couldn't 171 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 1: access it, because people would use it. People would have 172 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 1: picnics there while the blitz was going on and cities 173 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:41,480 Speaker 1: were being bombed. People would leave Birmingham sometimes and even 174 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 1: sleep out there around Hagleywood where it was a little quieter. 175 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:47,439 Speaker 3: And then a weird thing. 176 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:50,640 Speaker 1: Happened in March of nineteen forty four, so this is 177 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 1: about almost a year afterward. Their graffiti started popping up 178 00:08:56,200 --> 00:09:00,559 Speaker 1: around town around Birmingham and we'll see elsewhere with white 179 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:04,120 Speaker 1: chalk letters and all caps on these brick walls. Two 180 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:08,440 Speaker 1: messages at first, one said Hagley would Bella and another 181 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:13,760 Speaker 1: said who put Bella down? The witch elm wyh dash 182 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:14,640 Speaker 1: Hagley Wood. 183 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, so this is where we get the name of 184 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:23,560 Speaker 2: the victim that everybody knows, and the type of tree 185 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:27,640 Speaker 2: that the victim was found in that everybody knows from 186 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 2: graffiti from an anonymous person. But it was enough that 187 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:35,200 Speaker 2: the police were like, Okay, this seems a little weird. 188 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:39,040 Speaker 2: There were other people who started to kind of copycat 189 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:42,400 Speaker 2: the whole thing once the paper started writing about it, 190 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:46,040 Speaker 2: but there was at least a third one a couple 191 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:48,800 Speaker 2: days later that was clearly written by this the first 192 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 2: person who wrote the first two. And they were like, 193 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 2: maybe this person knows who it was and they want 194 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:59,200 Speaker 2: to find justice for the woman. And they looked they 195 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:02,320 Speaker 2: they reopen the case and this is I mean, they'd 196 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 2: already really extensively investigated, having like both both jaws. They're like, great, 197 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:09,559 Speaker 2: we'll do dental records and we'll find who it is. 198 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 2: Nothing matched. They tried to comb through all of the 199 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 2: missing persons reports, no one matched. They get this, chuck, 200 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:20,160 Speaker 2: did you see that? They investigated the shoe and got 201 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:23,679 Speaker 2: really far with it. They traced the shoe that they 202 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:27,960 Speaker 2: found with her back to the Waterfoot Company in Lancashire, Okay, 203 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:33,319 Speaker 2: and they traced down all but six of the owners 204 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:35,839 Speaker 2: of all but six of the pears. They were sold 205 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:38,720 Speaker 2: in a market stall, So this wasn't like looking through 206 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:45,160 Speaker 2: the market's credit card receipts cards. No, like they really 207 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 2: were doing some light work here, and you know, hats 208 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 2: off to him because let's not forget England was getting 209 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 2: bombed almost nightly by the LUFTWAFFA. There was food rationing, 210 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 2: there was a war on and they investigated this random, 211 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:04,400 Speaker 2: you know, dead person that hard and then they reopened 212 00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:06,000 Speaker 2: the case. I'm just saying I think they did a 213 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:08,560 Speaker 2: good job with what they were working with totally. 214 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:10,360 Speaker 1: And by the way, I don't know when credit cards 215 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:12,240 Speaker 1: came about to Maybe that's a good shorty So if 216 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 1: I'm wrong, I imagine they sprung from credit accounts like 217 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:19,200 Speaker 1: with a store or something. But yeah, maybe we should 218 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 1: do it on that. I bet it's Diner's Club. 219 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:25,200 Speaker 2: I think it was Diner's Club, Impact with Telly Savalis. No, 220 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 2: that was Players Club. 221 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:30,440 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, was it okay because he was a player? 222 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, yeah. 223 00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:35,120 Speaker 1: You noted some other graffiti's one of the ones that 224 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 1: seemed to be from the same hand. This was in 225 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:42,080 Speaker 1: hales Owen, and another town nearby. This is different just 226 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:44,839 Speaker 1: because a had a different name, and this one said, 227 00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:48,520 Speaker 1: who put Lubella l u e b e l l 228 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 1: A Lubella in the witch Elm? And we mentioned that 229 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 1: even though it seems like a copycat had done it 230 00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:58,360 Speaker 1: because it was in different script, it just gave them 231 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:01,320 Speaker 1: another name to look for. And so they looked for 232 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:03,800 Speaker 1: Loubella as well and came up cold as well. 233 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:11,600 Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, they looked for everybody, Bella Lubella, Isabella, lou Bega, everybody, 234 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:13,120 Speaker 2: and nothing came up. 235 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:16,280 Speaker 3: Right knowing he's going to pop up on this show. 236 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:19,320 Speaker 2: That was one of the best pranks ever played on us. 237 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:21,080 Speaker 1: Pretty good as you don't know what we're talking about, 238 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 1: it's just an Easter egg, and listen to every episode 239 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 1: and you'll learn. 240 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:30,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so the witch Elm thing. For those of 241 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:37,880 Speaker 2: us who aren't familiar with with British trees, sure, the 242 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 2: name witch Elm does not mean witch w i t 243 00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:44,079 Speaker 2: c h. It's you spelled it before, it's w y 244 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:47,600 Speaker 2: c h And it comes from an old English word 245 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:53,560 Speaker 2: maybe vice vis w i c and that means smooth 246 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:57,160 Speaker 2: or supple, and that that describes the bark of a 247 00:12:57,200 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 2: witch elm has nothing to do with witches. Witches are 248 00:13:00,679 --> 00:13:03,720 Speaker 2: not associated with the witch elm. It's not even spelled 249 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:09,480 Speaker 2: the same. And yet there's been an association with witchcraft 250 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 2: and this case at least in part because of that, 251 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:17,040 Speaker 2: even among Brits, Like there was a folklorist an archaeologist 252 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:20,840 Speaker 2: named Margaret Murray who loved to spin a good yarn 253 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:24,320 Speaker 2: and she was one of the first people to associate 254 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 2: this case with witches and basically said, witches killed this lady. 255 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, so she wrote a book, a prominent folklorist and archaeologist, 256 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:37,360 Speaker 1: she wrote a book, you know, many books, but one 257 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:39,320 Speaker 1: of them was called the Witch Cult in Western Europe. 258 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:42,000 Speaker 1: So she was really into this thing and this kind 259 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:44,880 Speaker 1: of idea, and she had a theory that she had 260 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 1: been promoting that European witches were in part of this 261 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:52,840 Speaker 1: ancient fertility cult where they had you know, sacrifices and 262 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:56,120 Speaker 1: things like that made. And she was there in Birmingham 263 00:13:56,120 --> 00:14:00,160 Speaker 1: in nineteen forty five investigating a different occult murder where 264 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 1: a farmer had been killed through the chest and pinned 265 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:07,000 Speaker 1: down with a pitchfork. While she was there, she hears 266 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:08,920 Speaker 1: about Bella and the witch elm and she's like, well, 267 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:12,480 Speaker 1: that's right up my alley, and very quickly was like, 268 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:16,319 Speaker 1: oh well, this was clearly some kind of witchy, witchcraft 269 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:21,600 Speaker 1: occult sacrifice that happened, because putting corpses in a tree 270 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 1: is a form of ancient tree worship, and so that's 271 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:29,800 Speaker 1: obviously what happened here. Also that you know this severed 272 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:32,920 Speaker 1: hand that we found near the tree with the bones, 273 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:36,440 Speaker 1: I guess that the handbones that's part of an ancient 274 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:39,720 Speaker 1: thing called the hand of glory, which you dug up 275 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:41,720 Speaker 1: some stuff on which I thought was super interesting. 276 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:45,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's nothing like what it sounds like with 277 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 2: rind of glory. Instead, it's an old burglar's superstition that 278 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 2: you would take a severed hand and put a candle 279 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 2: in it, like make it hold a candle, or you 280 00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 2: would basically attach candles to all five fingers that tips 281 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:02,080 Speaker 2: of them, and then you'd light it, and if it 282 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:05,360 Speaker 2: stayed lit, then that meant that everybody in the house 283 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 2: you were about to rob was asleep. If any of 284 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:11,040 Speaker 2: them went out, that meant that there was somebody still awake, 285 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:13,880 Speaker 2: and you shouldn't rob that house. It had nothing to 286 00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 2: do with witchcraft and then even more so, there was 287 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:24,360 Speaker 2: no hand found severed from the body. That doesn't appear 288 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:27,720 Speaker 2: in any of the initial police reports. Yeah, it's it's 289 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:31,200 Speaker 2: a great example of the lies that came up so 290 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:35,160 Speaker 2: to legitimize this idea that it was the hand of glory. 291 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 2: Somebody just said along the way, maybe even Margaret Murray, 292 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:40,960 Speaker 2: that the hand was severed and found at the trunk 293 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:43,800 Speaker 2: of the tree. And you will see that everywhere, yea, 294 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:47,320 Speaker 2: even in ones that don't mention witchcraft. It's just that's 295 00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:50,960 Speaker 2: how cases like this just get you know, that's how 296 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:53,800 Speaker 2: they become unsolvable over time. But I mean, I guess 297 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:56,160 Speaker 2: it doesn't really matter, but for some reason, it's just 298 00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:57,240 Speaker 2: always ticked me off. 299 00:15:57,440 --> 00:15:58,080 Speaker 3: No I get it. 300 00:15:58,440 --> 00:15:59,680 Speaker 1: I don't know if you have your phone, but I 301 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:02,480 Speaker 1: just took said you a picture of and I just 302 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 1: want to shout it out because it looks so darn 303 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:08,640 Speaker 1: good on Etsy, a hand of glory candle. Oh yeah, 304 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 1: the company is wailing dip candles and it is a 305 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:19,560 Speaker 1: frighteningly realistic old hand with candlewicks coming out of each 306 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 1: of the fingers in the thump. 307 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:22,720 Speaker 2: I got to check this out. Let me go grab 308 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:33,280 Speaker 2: my phone. Oh my gosh, it's amazing. 309 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 3: So Josh really did go get his one, Like, it. 310 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:37,440 Speaker 2: Doesn't even look old. It looks like they just severed 311 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:40,400 Speaker 2: a hand and planted some wicks on it. 312 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 3: Like, well it doesn't look young. 313 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:45,920 Speaker 2: Well okay, so it looks like an aged person's hand, 314 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 2: but it's not like a mummifi. 315 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:49,520 Speaker 1: No, no, no no, it looks like a real hand. And 316 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:52,000 Speaker 1: I'm hoping we move these things. It's for this company. 317 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:54,480 Speaker 1: It's kind of pricey. It's eighty five bucks, but I 318 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:58,240 Speaker 1: reckon if you amortize that over like ten Halloween's that's 319 00:16:58,240 --> 00:16:58,640 Speaker 1: not too bad. 320 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:00,280 Speaker 3: It's like eight to fifty a year to have a 321 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:00,920 Speaker 3: good spook. 322 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:03,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, I do feel like we need to change the 323 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:06,160 Speaker 2: name Hand of Glory though, first of all, it doesn't 324 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:08,960 Speaker 2: make sense, and secondly, sure it really does sound dirty. 325 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:10,560 Speaker 2: Let's just be honest. Yeah. 326 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:13,880 Speaker 1: Unfortunately, attaching the word glory to other objects, it's just. 327 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:15,240 Speaker 3: That's not so good. 328 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:18,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true. Blaze of Glory could. 329 00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:24,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, just ask Jerry Jones. So the idea that it's 330 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:28,240 Speaker 1: witchcraft was, like we said, really just sort of invented 331 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:31,720 Speaker 1: by Margaret Murray who happened to be there investigating in 332 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:33,720 Speaker 1: another case altogether. 333 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:36,639 Speaker 2: Yeah. By the way, that was Charles Walton, who was 334 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:39,720 Speaker 2: murdered almost certainly by his employer in a raid. 335 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:41,919 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. So that wasn't witchy either. It was 336 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:45,199 Speaker 1: just like I'm pitchforking your hay and I get mad 337 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 1: at you, and so I'm going to kill you with 338 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:49,000 Speaker 1: the thing in my hand, right and you know what, 339 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:52,560 Speaker 1: Actually should probably take a break here, oh, because we've 340 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:55,720 Speaker 1: been going for nineteen minutes now and it's almost. 341 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:57,800 Speaker 3: Kind of a good little little cliffhanger. 342 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:25,960 Speaker 1: Okay, we'll be right back, all right. So I mentioned 343 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:28,680 Speaker 1: a cliffhanger. It wasn't really a cliffhanger. I'm not sure 344 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:31,160 Speaker 1: why I said that. But let's jump forward a little 345 00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 1: bit to nineteen fifty three, where the story takes a turn. 346 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:38,440 Speaker 1: There was a journalist there named Wilfrid. Wilfrid Byford Jones 347 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:39,960 Speaker 1: apparently had a. 348 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:44,320 Speaker 3: Pen name that was Quay star M. 349 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 2: Basically q U A E S T O R. And 350 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:51,200 Speaker 2: you can see the A and the E joined to you. 351 00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, I could see that. 352 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:56,000 Speaker 1: But old Wilfrid wrote a bunch of very speculative articles 353 00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:59,840 Speaker 1: about Bella's murder, which only led to confusion and falsehoods. 354 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:02,879 Speaker 1: A lot of it had to do with witches, of course, 355 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 1: and blaming stuff on the Roman people, you know what 356 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:10,640 Speaker 1: they called gypsies at the time, like coming through town 357 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:16,080 Speaker 1: doing something like that, and all this to say. One 358 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:19,760 Speaker 1: of these stories was caught by a reader who wrote 359 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 1: in to Buy for Jones under the name of Anna 360 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:26,480 Speaker 1: of Claverly and basically was like, I know the deal. 361 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:30,439 Speaker 1: I'll just read it real quick. Finish your finish. Your 362 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:33,040 Speaker 1: articles are e the witch elm crimes. By all means, 363 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:35,480 Speaker 1: they are interesting to your readers, but you will never 364 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:37,760 Speaker 1: solve the mystery. The one person who could give you 365 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:41,040 Speaker 1: the answer is now beyond the jurisdiction of earthly courts, 366 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:46,160 Speaker 1: in other words, dead. The affair is closed and involves 367 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:49,600 Speaker 1: no witches, black magic or moonlight rites. The only clues 368 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:51,879 Speaker 1: that can give you are that the person responsible for 369 00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:55,720 Speaker 1: the crime died insane in nineteen forty two, and the 370 00:19:55,800 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 1: victim was Dutch and arrived illegally in England about nineteen 371 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:03,640 Speaker 1: for one, I have no wish to recall anymore. 372 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:07,200 Speaker 2: Right, And the police said, well, tes, because you're going 373 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:08,400 Speaker 2: to have a secret meeting with. 374 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:08,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess. 375 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:11,760 Speaker 1: They found Anna and brought her in for an interview. 376 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:16,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, and Anna's name was Una moss Up and she 377 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:20,359 Speaker 2: eventually became Una Hainsworth. But during the time of the 378 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:22,720 Speaker 2: murder she was married to a guy named Jack moss Up. 379 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:27,119 Speaker 2: And I saw alternative alternatively that he worked in a 380 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:32,080 Speaker 2: local munitions factory, or that he was a RAF instructor, 381 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:35,720 Speaker 2: or that he worked in a factory building plane engines. 382 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:41,280 Speaker 2: Regardless he existed. He was married to Una, and he 383 00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:43,920 Speaker 2: Una told the story to the cops that one night 384 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:46,960 Speaker 2: Jack brought home a friend named Van Raalt, a Dutchman, 385 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:51,640 Speaker 2: and that apparently at some point Jack admitted to Una 386 00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:54,920 Speaker 2: that he was on Van Raalt's payroll and Van Ralt 387 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:57,840 Speaker 2: was a spy for the Nazis, and apparently Jack was 388 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:00,800 Speaker 2: feeding him information about local factories stuff to help the 389 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:05,040 Speaker 2: Luftwaffe plan their bombings. So Jack was a real grade 390 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:08,600 Speaker 2: A bastard as far as things went, because he traded 391 00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:12,359 Speaker 2: his country in for some spending money. And Una said, 392 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:16,760 Speaker 2: one day Jack came home in March or April of 393 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:20,040 Speaker 2: nineteen forty one, came home late. He was drunk, but 394 00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:22,360 Speaker 2: he was super agitated. 395 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:25,080 Speaker 1: Right said, you know, pale as a ghost. He said 396 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:28,199 Speaker 1: he'd been at a pub with Van Ralt and what 397 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:31,640 Speaker 1: he called a Dutch piece. Who was this Dutch woman. 398 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:34,159 Speaker 1: I didn't know they use as that kind of language 399 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:36,560 Speaker 1: back then, or maybe it meant something else. I have 400 00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:38,680 Speaker 1: no idea, but those were the words that he used, 401 00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:42,320 Speaker 1: and then he said things got awkward. You can just 402 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:46,359 Speaker 1: chalk that up to understatement of the year. She I guess, 403 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:49,720 Speaker 1: was also drunk, passed out in Van Ralt's car, and 404 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 1: Van Ralt supposedly, as this story goes, had a very 405 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 1: strange idea was Hey, let's go stick this woman in 406 00:21:56,880 --> 00:22:00,320 Speaker 1: that tree and she'll sober up in the more and 407 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:05,639 Speaker 1: come to her senses. And Jack, apparently, Una said, was 408 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:09,159 Speaker 1: never the same. He started drinking more and more, quit working, 409 00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:13,600 Speaker 1: still had this money. But eventually Una said, I'm out 410 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:15,800 Speaker 1: of here and I'm leaving you. I'm taking our kid. 411 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:18,560 Speaker 1: She saw him again about a year later, in nineteen 412 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:21,520 Speaker 1: forty two, when he was really coming apart at the seam, 413 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:23,720 Speaker 1: saying that he keeps seeing this woman in his mind 414 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:26,640 Speaker 1: in the tree. She was leering at him, and he 415 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:30,439 Speaker 1: was eventually committed to a mental hospital, where he died 416 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:33,120 Speaker 1: about eight months before Bella's body was discovered. 417 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:37,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, he died of as far as his death certificate 418 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:44,600 Speaker 2: is concerned, a combination of cerebral softening, myocardial degeneration, chronic nephritis, 419 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:50,040 Speaker 2: and acute acute something insanity. I can't even remember my 420 00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:54,679 Speaker 2: own appreciation. But you put those together and that guys 421 00:22:54,760 --> 00:23:00,920 Speaker 2: like dead dead dead. So UNA's story sound like this 422 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:04,320 Speaker 2: actually all makes sense from what I can tell. She 423 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:07,639 Speaker 2: provided information that you wouldn't have just been able to 424 00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:11,320 Speaker 2: glean from the papers. And what's more, she didn't really 425 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:16,040 Speaker 2: have much to gain. She wrote in anonymously and resisted 426 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 2: coming forward, so it wasn't like she was a publicity having. 427 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:21,320 Speaker 3: It'd be a weird thing to make up. 428 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:28,120 Speaker 2: She would be like a mastermind attention getter to really like, yes, 429 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:30,480 Speaker 2: it would be a weird thing to say, to make. 430 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:32,040 Speaker 1: Up, right, Yeah, I mean it's a weird thing to do, 431 00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:34,199 Speaker 1: to have that idea, like, hey, let's go stuff that 432 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 1: woman in a tree. 433 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:37,560 Speaker 3: I mean, it's oh, God, beyond the no, that's weird. 434 00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:39,800 Speaker 1: And then it's a weird thing for that not to 435 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:41,800 Speaker 1: have happened, and for this woman to sort of invent it. 436 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:43,480 Speaker 3: It's all just beyond the pale. 437 00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:46,960 Speaker 2: Exactly. One of the things is though, is so like 438 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:49,680 Speaker 2: if this was a joke, what you know, what tree? 439 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:52,240 Speaker 2: How did van Raalt know that that tree right was 440 00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:54,320 Speaker 2: there in the first plason that it had this twelve 441 00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:59,320 Speaker 2: x twenty four you know space in it. The thing is, 442 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:03,919 Speaker 2: this is far and away the most legitimate explanation for 443 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:07,760 Speaker 2: what happened. This is an unsolved case. It's an unsolved mystery. 444 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:10,359 Speaker 2: But for my money, like, this is as close as 445 00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:11,560 Speaker 2: where we're going to get. No. 446 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:12,200 Speaker 3: I agree. 447 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:16,480 Speaker 1: You know, cops obviously searched for Van Rault. They searched for, 448 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:20,560 Speaker 1: you know, records wise, a Dutch national who may have. 449 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:22,280 Speaker 3: Fit the description that Una gave. 450 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:26,720 Speaker 1: But it went cold yet again, and then we flashed 451 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:30,359 Speaker 1: forward to nineteen sixty eight. There's a writer named Donald 452 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:33,600 Speaker 1: McCormick who picked up the case for a book he 453 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:36,680 Speaker 1: was writing called Murder by Witchcraft. And this is when 454 00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:38,680 Speaker 1: he I mean, this guy doesn't have a very good 455 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:40,920 Speaker 1: reputation as a writer because it seems like he would 456 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:43,720 Speaker 1: just they called him a fantasy historian, like he would 457 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:48,200 Speaker 1: just make stuff up, make a lot of weird claims 458 00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:51,679 Speaker 1: and theories. He would say things like, you know, I 459 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:54,639 Speaker 1: was able to interview someone exclusively who was anonymous and 460 00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:58,280 Speaker 1: that no one else could talk to, and here is 461 00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:00,879 Speaker 1: that interview. And in this case, he said, you know 462 00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:03,040 Speaker 1: this interview that I got with this guy that no 463 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:04,680 Speaker 1: one else knows about, or we'll talk to and who 464 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:08,359 Speaker 1: shall remain anonymous was a former Nazi spy recruiter hiding 465 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:12,480 Speaker 1: in Paraguay. And Bella was a Dutch born German spy 466 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:17,360 Speaker 1: named Clara or Clara Bella. And I've even got Nazi 467 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:20,080 Speaker 1: intelligence files on this. I'm not going to show you, 468 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:24,480 Speaker 1: but it says that she parachuted into Birmingham in March 469 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:26,960 Speaker 1: of April nineteen forty one, So the timeline fits, and 470 00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 1: she happened to look just exactly like who was described 471 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:30,480 Speaker 1: by Una. 472 00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:34,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, so Dave points out that this guy had a 473 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:37,320 Speaker 2: habit of making his puzzle pieces fit together a little 474 00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:42,359 Speaker 2: too neatly. So essentially he found out about Una moss 475 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:47,680 Speaker 2: Up story and decided to make it real by corroborating 476 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:52,520 Speaker 2: it with his imagination. His book, though, is the book 477 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:54,960 Speaker 2: that we get the very famous pictures that I was 478 00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:58,160 Speaker 2: familiar that caught my attention as a kid. But it's 479 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:01,159 Speaker 2: really important to point out here tree that he shows 480 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:03,960 Speaker 2: is not the tree that she was found in. You 481 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:06,840 Speaker 2: said toward the beginning of the episode that the cops 482 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:09,680 Speaker 2: chopped that tree down to look for more evidence to it, 483 00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:13,159 Speaker 2: so that tree doesn't exist anymore. And yet that's that 484 00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:17,080 Speaker 2: picture that Donald McCormick put forth as the tree is 485 00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:19,159 Speaker 2: what you see on the internet still today is the 486 00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:22,719 Speaker 2: tree she was found in, and that that's possibly not 487 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:24,800 Speaker 2: even the kind of tree that she might not have 488 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 2: been found in a witch elm. The cops mentioned that 489 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:30,840 Speaker 2: she was found in an elm, but that's it. And 490 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:33,600 Speaker 2: then apparently some people have been able to examine the 491 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:36,359 Speaker 2: photos of the original tree and said it's not a 492 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:39,400 Speaker 2: witch elm because you don't cut witch elms down that way. 493 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:44,119 Speaker 3: That story about you seeing that picture, when did that happen? 494 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:50,240 Speaker 2: I was probably like ten to eleven. I think, probably 495 00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:52,160 Speaker 2: in like a school library. 496 00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:54,160 Speaker 3: Book or something I thought you saw recently. 497 00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:57,440 Speaker 2: Okay, no, no, no, that's that's how I was walking around 498 00:26:57,480 --> 00:26:59,360 Speaker 2: with this case for that many years, Like I saw 499 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:00,960 Speaker 2: it in some book when I was a kid. 500 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:02,639 Speaker 3: I gotcha, I can tell I can. 501 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:05,639 Speaker 2: I can even remember like the cellphone covering of the 502 00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:08,960 Speaker 2: book cover, even feel it my fingers right now. I 503 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:11,320 Speaker 2: can smell it. That's it smells awesome. 504 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 1: It makes much more sense because you were talking in 505 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:15,600 Speaker 1: those sort of ways about it, and I thought it 506 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:18,359 Speaker 1: was recent, and I was like, that's a weird nostalgia 507 00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:20,120 Speaker 1: for something that happened a few weeks ago. 508 00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:22,760 Speaker 2: It makes me nostalgic for yesterday. 509 00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:26,320 Speaker 3: I can still remember that moment in December. 510 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:28,560 Speaker 2: Right, No, not like that. 511 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:30,680 Speaker 3: I got little kid stuff, all right. 512 00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:35,520 Speaker 1: So that's that book aside. Another twist came in twenty thirteen. 513 00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:39,639 Speaker 1: The Independent ran a story about Bella, connecting it to 514 00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:45,359 Speaker 1: a spy named Joseph Jacobs, who's a German spy who 515 00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 1: evidently parachuted into a field near Cambridge in February nineteen 516 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:54,200 Speaker 1: forty one, got hurt really badly, could not walk firer's 517 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:58,080 Speaker 1: pistol in the air to attract some help ideally, and. 518 00:27:58,080 --> 00:27:58,960 Speaker 2: Then said, hey fuss. 519 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:00,000 Speaker 3: Yeah. 520 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,119 Speaker 1: So the cops come and he's in police custody. He 521 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 1: has a wireless transmitter, a fake ID, almost five hundred 522 00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:10,240 Speaker 1: pounds in cash, but also a headshot a photograph of 523 00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:14,120 Speaker 1: a woman, but like a professional headshot of this attractive, 524 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:16,919 Speaker 1: smiling woman, and on the back of it in English 525 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:20,120 Speaker 1: it said, my dear, I love you Forever your Clara 526 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:24,920 Speaker 1: Landau July nineteen forty. 527 00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:28,080 Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, so there's a lot that's weird about this. 528 00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:32,359 Speaker 2: So Clara Landau, this picture of Clara Landau was actually 529 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:35,440 Speaker 2: a picture of Clara Bowery, who was a well known 530 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 2: I saw her described as a movie star, but at 531 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:40,520 Speaker 2: least a movie actress and a cabaret singer, a German 532 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:45,680 Speaker 2: Lily bunchdu and so yeah, exactly, I think that's almost 533 00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:49,320 Speaker 2: exactly who this could have been based on. She was. 534 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:53,000 Speaker 2: Apparently as far as Joseph Jakobs has has said to 535 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:56,320 Speaker 2: m I five in multiple interviews that this was his 536 00:28:56,480 --> 00:29:00,720 Speaker 2: mistress that they met in Berlin, Bowerley singing with a 537 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:03,800 Speaker 2: group called the Bernard Eda Orchestra. That just goes to 538 00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:09,000 Speaker 2: show you Dave's dedication to research, and that Jakobs and 539 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:13,480 Speaker 2: Bowerley were both crypto Nazis, meaning that they were not 540 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:17,160 Speaker 2: actual Nazis, they were pretending to be Nazis, and they 541 00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 2: had fooled the Germans, or at least Yakob had, into 542 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:24,480 Speaker 2: taking him on as a spy and sending him to England. 543 00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:26,880 Speaker 2: He planned to get to England, defect and make his 544 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:30,000 Speaker 2: way to America, but first he wanted to set up 545 00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:33,560 Speaker 2: a fake operation enough to convince the Germans to send 546 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:38,720 Speaker 2: Bowery after him. And this this is it, that's it 547 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:43,600 Speaker 2: like that, That's what Joseph Jakob said. But The Independent 548 00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:46,360 Speaker 2: was like, Oho, let's fill in some blanks and come 549 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:49,640 Speaker 2: up with our own theory Donald McCormick style. 550 00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:53,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, they did some research. They looked for obviously, for 551 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:59,360 Speaker 1: records for Clara Bowery, and they did find information and confirm, yes, 552 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:02,040 Speaker 1: she was a cabaret singer in Germany. She would have 553 00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:04,480 Speaker 1: been thirty five years old at the time of the murder, 554 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:10,120 Speaker 1: just like the skeleton, you know, seemingly confirmed. But had 555 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:13,040 Speaker 1: she come to England was the big question. All they 556 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:17,600 Speaker 1: found was a Clara with a K, Clara Sophie Bowerley, 557 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:21,040 Speaker 1: who was thirty five, who did go to Germany, I'm sorry, 558 00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:24,160 Speaker 1: from Germany to England and stayed from nineteen thirty to 559 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:24,760 Speaker 1: thirty two. 560 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:26,680 Speaker 3: But that was kind of it. 561 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:29,960 Speaker 1: No information at all about what she did in England, 562 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:31,640 Speaker 1: but they ran with it anyway. 563 00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:33,600 Speaker 2: They did, I mean think about it, so like she 564 00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:37,520 Speaker 2: left a full eight nine years before Bella and the 565 00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:42,080 Speaker 2: which Elm happened was killed. Yeah, and yet yeah. The 566 00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:46,040 Speaker 2: Independent's like, so what so based on all this with 567 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:48,640 Speaker 2: a bunch of pie filling that they mashed in with it, 568 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:52,200 Speaker 2: the Independent came up with a new theory and I say, 569 00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:54,000 Speaker 2: we take a little break and come back and talk 570 00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:54,720 Speaker 2: about it after this. 571 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:55,000 Speaker 3: Ooh. 572 00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:22,360 Speaker 2: So, like I was saying, that Independent came up with 573 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:24,440 Speaker 2: their own pet theory for the Bella and the Witch 574 00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:27,280 Speaker 2: Elm case. And what they said was okay. So Clara 575 00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:32,080 Speaker 2: Clara Bowerley had come to England in the thirties and 576 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:35,400 Speaker 2: was a performer, a cabaret singer here as well as 577 00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:39,680 Speaker 2: in Germany, and that she became known as Clara Bella, 578 00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:41,880 Speaker 2: like maybe there is a stage name she adopted or 579 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:44,000 Speaker 2: something like that, but it was a mashup of her 580 00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:47,719 Speaker 2: name Clara Bowerley, and that was the foundation that they 581 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:48,800 Speaker 2: based everything else on. 582 00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:52,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, they said, here's what she did. She parachuted into 583 00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:55,920 Speaker 1: England in nineteen forty one. She was, you know, trying 584 00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:58,760 Speaker 1: to catch up with her parachuting boyfriend, Joseph Yakups. And 585 00:31:58,800 --> 00:31:59,880 Speaker 1: they thought that was the only way to get it 586 00:31:59,920 --> 00:32:02,560 Speaker 1: to a country, I guess, to drop into the middle 587 00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:05,200 Speaker 1: of a field. And they said, hey, what if this 588 00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:08,760 Speaker 1: Clara was who was in that tree who was killed 589 00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:12,480 Speaker 1: by Van Rault, Like we think that that's who was 590 00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:16,120 Speaker 1: in the witch elm, and that graffiti artist had to 591 00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:20,560 Speaker 1: have known that Clarabella Orbella was her name and tried 592 00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:22,360 Speaker 1: to get justice for this murder. 593 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:26,480 Speaker 2: Right, and they walked away like this. Yeah, could you 594 00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:27,560 Speaker 2: hear that? Did that come through? 595 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:29,760 Speaker 3: Yeah? I think so? 596 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:34,080 Speaker 2: So. Yeah, So there's some problems with this theory. Number one, 597 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:39,400 Speaker 2: she was not Clara Bowerley was not five feet tall. 598 00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:41,640 Speaker 2: She was approaching six feet tall. 599 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:44,360 Speaker 1: That's the biggest problem with this, Right, that's a pretty 600 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:44,920 Speaker 1: big problem. 601 00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:47,800 Speaker 2: I would I would say that there's an even bigger 602 00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:50,360 Speaker 2: problem than this, and that is that she died a 603 00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:55,080 Speaker 2: full year after Bella did in a German hospital of 604 00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:56,560 Speaker 2: a barbituate overdose. 605 00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:56,960 Speaker 3: Yeah. 606 00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:00,000 Speaker 1: Those two very large problems with this story. That didn't 607 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:01,479 Speaker 1: not keep them from running the story. 608 00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:05,480 Speaker 2: No, and this is twenty thirteen. This isn't the Independent, 609 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:08,640 Speaker 2: you know decades ago. This was well, I guess a 610 00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:11,680 Speaker 2: decade ago, but still it was recent enough that they 611 00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:15,000 Speaker 2: should know better than making up basically new theories and 612 00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:19,120 Speaker 2: printing them as if they're basically fact. So one of 613 00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:22,080 Speaker 2: the good things that came out of this was of 614 00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:26,640 Speaker 2: Yoseph Jakobs being brought into this case, although just totally 615 00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:29,800 Speaker 2: like that was the independent that did that. That was like, 616 00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:32,520 Speaker 2: he was not mentioned that he was not tangential the case. 617 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:36,120 Speaker 2: He had nothing to do with it, basically, but his granddaughter, 618 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:39,520 Speaker 2: Giselle K Jakobs or Jacobs, I'm not sure which one 619 00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:42,320 Speaker 2: she goes by. She has a PhD In ancient history, 620 00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:45,920 Speaker 2: so she knows about being a historian, and she's applied 621 00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:48,080 Speaker 2: some of that to the Bella and the witch Elm 622 00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:52,800 Speaker 2: case on a website called Yosef Jakobs dot info and 623 00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:56,560 Speaker 2: it is very well researched and well written information about 624 00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:58,840 Speaker 2: this case. So if you're interested in it at all, 625 00:33:58,840 --> 00:33:59,600 Speaker 2: go check that out. 626 00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:04,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, finally, which is great if you were wondering about DNA, 627 00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:07,080 Speaker 1: you know sometimes they can you know, find DNA on 628 00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:13,080 Speaker 1: old stuff. But everything has been lost. Apparently all everything 629 00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:16,360 Speaker 1: was being passed around and moved around in different boxes 630 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:18,680 Speaker 1: and different labs. And this is in the nineteen forties 631 00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:22,040 Speaker 1: and fifties, and no one knows if it even exists 632 00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:24,720 Speaker 1: at all anymore, if it's you know, hidden away besides 633 00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:28,720 Speaker 1: the arc of the Covenant in some warehouse or something, 634 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:30,239 Speaker 1: you know. 635 00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:32,879 Speaker 2: I mean it's possible that someone will find it at 636 00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:33,759 Speaker 2: some point, you know. 637 00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:35,799 Speaker 1: Yeah, it might still be out there, or it could 638 00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:38,520 Speaker 1: have been lost, or a building could have burned down 639 00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:41,319 Speaker 1: like who knows. Like our lost episode, Jerry has no idea. 640 00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:45,760 Speaker 2: No idea. That's gone for good. It's not in any warehouse. 641 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:46,799 Speaker 3: Anywhere, which is probably a good thing. 642 00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:50,600 Speaker 2: And now we'll wrap up this episode with five minutes 643 00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:54,080 Speaker 2: on the ancient woodland management technique of coppacing. 644 00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:56,000 Speaker 3: Very funny. 645 00:34:57,360 --> 00:34:58,160 Speaker 2: You got anything else? 646 00:34:58,320 --> 00:34:59,520 Speaker 3: I have nothing else? 647 00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:03,080 Speaker 2: Well, go forth if this floated your boat and read 648 00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:05,880 Speaker 2: more about Bella and the Witch elm the case. Just 649 00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:08,880 Speaker 2: be wary of where your information's from. And there's a 650 00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:10,840 Speaker 2: lot more to it. There's a lot, well, there's a 651 00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:13,680 Speaker 2: lot more out there to read. How about that? And 652 00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:15,839 Speaker 2: in the meantime, it's time for listener mail. 653 00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:21,200 Speaker 1: I'm going to read this and preface it with we 654 00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:25,040 Speaker 1: got quite a few emails. Remember when you tied John Williams. 655 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:28,480 Speaker 1: I guess Star Wars people are going to be so mad. 656 00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:30,600 Speaker 1: Is it Darth Vader's theme or the Imperial Death March? 657 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:33,240 Speaker 2: One of those Imperial something or other. 658 00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:37,840 Speaker 3: Something like that. You tied that to who was it bach, I. 659 00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:40,080 Speaker 2: Don't remember Chopin's funeral march n. 660 00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:41,200 Speaker 3: That's that's right. 661 00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:43,959 Speaker 1: And we got quite a few music people that wrote 662 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:46,680 Speaker 1: in and were you know, gave us the older hey, 663 00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:50,960 Speaker 1: will actually these differences here and there and here and 664 00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:54,520 Speaker 1: there fair enough. Not knocking those people for knowing much 665 00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:56,000 Speaker 1: more about that kind of thing than us. 666 00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:57,839 Speaker 3: You just know what your ears told you. 667 00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:01,879 Speaker 2: Well. Also, I n Williams and she was like, yep, 668 00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:04,200 Speaker 2: I love that funeral march. 669 00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:06,040 Speaker 3: I keep up the good work boys. 670 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:10,520 Speaker 1: He wrote our theme song too, by the way, sure 671 00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:13,040 Speaker 1: no one knows that, no, but this is from lad 672 00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:15,399 Speaker 1: who gets your back. Hey, guys, hope all is well. 673 00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:20,800 Speaker 1: Finally somebody said it. Josh John Williams likes to borrow 674 00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:22,040 Speaker 1: heavily from classic works. 675 00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:25,600 Speaker 3: Please listen to Lesaca. 676 00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:29,879 Speaker 1: Doon the Right of Spring by Stravinsky, and you will 677 00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:32,160 Speaker 1: hear the theme from Jaws, as well as many other 678 00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:36,319 Speaker 1: hits that mister Williams has taken on loan. Not saying 679 00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:38,640 Speaker 1: he doesn't done a lot for the genre, but if 680 00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:41,120 Speaker 1: this is a sampling issue, he'd be paying a lot 681 00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:44,680 Speaker 1: of money to those composers. Keep up the work and 682 00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:47,720 Speaker 1: stay sexy and that is from Ladd. 683 00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:52,000 Speaker 2: Thanks Lad, appreciate that. Loved your turn as the little 684 00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:53,160 Speaker 2: Kid and Lost Boys. 685 00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:56,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I oh, by the way, we watched The 686 00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:59,359 Speaker 1: Lost Boys with Ruby the other night. Would she think 687 00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:01,719 Speaker 1: that's her second and sort of adult movie in a 688 00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:02,919 Speaker 1: row after a Terminator two? 689 00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:03,799 Speaker 3: She loved it. 690 00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:05,799 Speaker 1: I looked it up beforehand and I was like, surely Lost 691 00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:07,920 Speaker 1: Boys has some gratuitous nudity or. 692 00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:10,280 Speaker 3: Some awful like sexy stuff, and it really doesn't. 693 00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:13,160 Speaker 1: It's some kind of gruesome stuff. But she's totally good 694 00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:15,440 Speaker 1: with that and a little bit of language, and she 695 00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:18,560 Speaker 1: knows all that stuff. And she really dug the Lost 696 00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:20,480 Speaker 1: Boys because she likes all that spooky, witchy stuff. 697 00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:23,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a really good movie. 698 00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:25,000 Speaker 1: And you know, it was pretty fun. It holds up 699 00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:26,839 Speaker 1: in the way that eighties movies like that hold up. 700 00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:30,479 Speaker 2: Yeah, it definitely did. I saw it not too long ago, 701 00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:32,879 Speaker 2: and I was like, this is like I said it before, 702 00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:34,200 Speaker 2: I'll say it again. It's a good movie. 703 00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:34,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, I agreed. 704 00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:39,560 Speaker 2: Well, thanks a lot, Lad. Again, I appreciate being backed up. 705 00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:42,360 Speaker 2: That was very refreshing. And if you want to be 706 00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:44,640 Speaker 2: like Lad and back me up about some stand I 707 00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:46,719 Speaker 2: took that everybody tried to shout me down on and 708 00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:48,480 Speaker 2: I said no, I'm not going to be shouted down. 709 00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:50,279 Speaker 2: They're like, yes you are, and I said no, I'm not, 710 00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:52,280 Speaker 2: and then it just kind of hung out there until 711 00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:55,120 Speaker 2: you email in. We love that kind of thing. You 712 00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:58,239 Speaker 2: can send us that email to stuff podcast at iHeartRadio 713 00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:02,120 Speaker 2: dot com. 714 00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:04,600 Speaker 3: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. 715 00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:09,440 Speaker 1: For more podcasts myheart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 716 00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:11,360 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.