1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 3 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:08,840 Speaker 1: today's best minds. 4 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:10,680 Speaker 2: And gay couples. 5 00:00:10,320 --> 00:00:15,520 Speaker 1: Rush to get married and have children before the Trump inauguration, 6 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:18,920 Speaker 1: always a great sign. We have such a good show 7 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:22,680 Speaker 1: for you today the Lincoln Projects Rick Wilson stops by 8 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:25,840 Speaker 1: to talk about what Cash Bettel's appointment to the FBI 9 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:27,040 Speaker 1: directorship means. 10 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:28,560 Speaker 2: Then we will talk. 11 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:33,760 Speaker 1: To the Washington Posts Carolyn Kitchener about the latest horrors 12 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:35,240 Speaker 1: in the post row world. 13 00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:36,960 Speaker 2: But first the. 14 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 3: News Somalie, it was a quiet weekend. Well, everyone ate 15 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:44,080 Speaker 3: Turkey and slept through trip to Fenn, but I think 16 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:46,120 Speaker 3: there were some interesting stories. So the first one we 17 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:48,400 Speaker 3: have is I'm going to shock you here. The Trump 18 00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:51,680 Speaker 3: administration is laughing at the Democrats decorum. 19 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 1: This is one of the problems with trying to cover 20 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 1: an autocrat right. So Republicans are delighted that Biden took 21 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:03,000 Speaker 1: pictures with Trump and did a peaceful transfer of power, 22 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:05,680 Speaker 1: or at least did that first meeting. And they think 23 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:08,240 Speaker 1: of it as an own because this is. 24 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:09,480 Speaker 2: All about owning the Libs. 25 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 1: So Trump campaign people told Rolling Stone some of us 26 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:16,559 Speaker 1: have been laughing about it. Democrats spent all this time 27 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:19,039 Speaker 1: calling Donald Trump and Nazi and Hitler, and now it's 28 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:23,319 Speaker 1: just smile for the cameras. Again, like, this is this 29 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 1: fundamental problem we were just talking about with Rick Wilson, 30 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 1: and you'll hear us get all cranky with each other. 31 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:33,080 Speaker 1: But like, an autocrat as a candidate is different than 32 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:36,560 Speaker 1: an autocrat as a president, right, Democrats have this problem, 33 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 1: which is they don't want it. They didn't want to 34 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:43,360 Speaker 1: normalize the auto, the autocracy and the candidate. But now 35 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:45,479 Speaker 1: that he has won, he has. 36 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:47,680 Speaker 2: To be covered. He has to be covered, period. 37 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:51,520 Speaker 1: Paragraph So I do think this is very hard to cover. 38 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 1: And again this is the fundamental disconnect between covering an 39 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 1: autocrat and a democracy and trying to cover what is 40 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 1: that normal while still being clear eyed about what is normal. 41 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:08,760 Speaker 1: But Democrats had no choice. They had to protect norms 42 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:11,240 Speaker 1: and institutions. Do I think it was great that they 43 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:14,480 Speaker 1: took photos? Not especially, but do I think that we 44 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:17,920 Speaker 1: at least need one party that stands up for the 45 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 1: rule of law and the way we do things in 46 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:23,040 Speaker 1: this country. And if we had two, just think of 47 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:23,799 Speaker 1: what we could do. 48 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, it could all feel so normal, like twenty fifteen Somali. 49 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:31,760 Speaker 3: We now know the makeup of the House and how 50 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:34,040 Speaker 3: this Congress is shaken out, and we're starting to understand 51 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:37,200 Speaker 3: how Republicans kept their majority in Congress. 52 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:38,040 Speaker 4: What are you seeing here? 53 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:41,840 Speaker 1: So this is a really interesting moment because if you 54 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:47,400 Speaker 1: look back at the twenty sixteen Congress, I was actually 55 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:50,000 Speaker 1: went back and looked at the twenty sixteen Congress. In 56 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:56,280 Speaker 1: the twenty sixteen Congress, Democrats had I had only really 57 00:02:56,320 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 1: got shellacked at the House. So Democrats at one hundred 58 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:03,880 Speaker 1: and ninety four seats and Republicans had had forty one seats, 59 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 1: so they could pretty much do anything in Congress. And 60 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:10,560 Speaker 1: in fact, what they did the House Republicans was they 61 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:13,600 Speaker 1: shut down the budget. They shut down they shut down 62 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:15,560 Speaker 1: the government. That was one of the first things they did. 63 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:18,320 Speaker 1: They controlled the House, the Senate, the Presidency, and they 64 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:21,359 Speaker 1: shut down the government. So they had two forty one 65 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 1: Democrats had one ninety four. Now Republicans have two hundred 66 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 1: and twenty seats and Democrats have two fourteen seats. And 67 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 1: by the way, that is actually not you know, the 68 00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 1: final result will be two twenty to two fifteen. That's 69 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:41,840 Speaker 1: the GOP majority. That is one of the smallest margins. Ever, 70 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 1: It's even smaller than it was last Congress. The Congress 71 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 1: when Republicans had tenth Congress was was a bigger margin 72 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 1: than this, and they could barely pass anything. So but 73 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 1: I think it's important to realize that there's one reason 74 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 1: why Republicans won the House as cycle, and it's North 75 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:10,200 Speaker 1: Carolina jerrymandering. So they Republican supermajority in North Carolina redrew 76 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 1: the districts to favor the GOP North Carolina. This is 77 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:18,680 Speaker 1: Wiley Nicol who was a Democratic member of Congress. North 78 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 1: Carolina is one of the most jerrymandered states in the country. 79 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:25,719 Speaker 1: We have to spend more on litigation than anyone else 80 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:26,400 Speaker 1: in the country. 81 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:27,120 Speaker 2: One of the. 82 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:31,279 Speaker 1: Poster children for extreme partisan jerrymandering. This again is a 83 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:33,360 Speaker 1: little bit of Republicans winning by cheating. 84 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 3: One of the more disturbing pieces of news that dropped 85 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 3: over this holiday weekend was email that Pete Hegseith, who's 86 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:44,960 Speaker 3: nominated for Secretary of Defense, mother wrote about him disrespecting women. 87 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:45,920 Speaker 3: What are you seeing here? 88 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:51,119 Speaker 1: Yeah, So, Pete Hegsa's mother wrote a email to her son, 89 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:56,280 Speaker 1: who is hoping to become director of the Department of Defense, 90 00:04:56,520 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 1: and she sent it on April thirtieth, twenty eighteen, when 91 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:03,240 Speaker 1: he was in the middle of a divorce from his 92 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:06,279 Speaker 1: second wife, and she said, you are an abuser of women. 93 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:08,799 Speaker 2: That is the ugly truth. And I have no respect 94 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:09,679 Speaker 2: for any man. 95 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 1: Who belittles that belittles, lies, she sleeps around, and uses 96 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:16,479 Speaker 1: women for his own power and ego. Penelope Road, you 97 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:19,480 Speaker 1: are the man you have been for years, and as 98 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:21,599 Speaker 1: your mother, it pains and embarrasses me to say this, 99 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 1: but as a sad, sad truth, your abuse over the 100 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:28,720 Speaker 1: years to women, dishonesty, sleeping around, betrayal, debasing, and belittling 101 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:31,400 Speaker 1: needs to be called out. So this was after his 102 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:35,800 Speaker 1: second wife had filed for a divorce, after hegseeth head 103 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 1: coworker in the email, Penelope Road, Sam is a good 104 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 1: mother and a good person under the circumstances you created. 105 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 1: And I know deep down that you know. For you 106 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:49,680 Speaker 1: to label her as unstable for your own advantages, despicable 107 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:52,560 Speaker 1: and abusive. Anyway, there's a lot to this storm and 108 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:55,680 Speaker 1: it's really quite upsetting. 109 00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:58,880 Speaker 2: And you know then the mother did, in fact. 110 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:03,360 Speaker 1: Say she had written back and sent another email, but 111 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 1: she did not share it with the New York Times. 112 00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, this is coupled with many of the remarks he's 113 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:09,760 Speaker 3: made about women do not paint a good picture for 114 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:13,040 Speaker 3: the fellow We should give a little primer. So President 115 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:16,479 Speaker 3: Trump truth this weekend that he might give one hundred 116 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:19,680 Speaker 3: percent tariffs against bricks. I noticed a lot of people 117 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 3: don't know what bricks is, which is Brazil, Russia, India, 118 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:24,760 Speaker 3: China and South Africa. 119 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:25,599 Speaker 4: What do you think about this? 120 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 1: So this is Trump threatening something, threatening to do something 121 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:33,880 Speaker 1: that probably isn't going to happen anyway. Trump is very 122 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:37,560 Speaker 1: good at solving problems that aren't real problems. So bricks 123 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 1: had been musing about going off the dollar and maybe 124 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:45,720 Speaker 1: using the Chinese currency or some other currency, but they're 125 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:50,040 Speaker 1: not going to do this. And so Trump threatening tariffs 126 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 1: to people for something they won't do is his kind 127 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 1: of problem solving and none of us should be surprised 128 00:06:56,320 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 1: by it. He is using tariffs as a way to 129 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 1: try to get people to do what he want. 130 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, and I look forward to the riots in the 131 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:07,680 Speaker 3: streets when all our Chinese products have that big of 132 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:08,360 Speaker 3: tariff on them. 133 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 2: Yeah. 134 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 1: I mean, I also just think this is like one 135 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 1: of these great threats for him because it's never gonna happen, 136 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 1: so he doesn't have to worry about it, so he'll 137 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 1: threaten it. 138 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:18,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, this will be lost in the dustbin of other 139 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:19,920 Speaker 3: truths that never happened. 140 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:27,080 Speaker 1: Rick Wilson is the founder of the Lincoln Project in 141 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 1: the host of the Enemy's List, Welcome Back, Too Fast Politics, 142 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 1: Rick Wilson. 143 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 4: Hey, Mally Johns Fast. Hope you had a great Thanksgiving? 144 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 2: Yes the best. I saw you deep fried a turkey. 145 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:40,360 Speaker 4: Yeah, I did deep fry a turkey as a man. 146 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:44,080 Speaker 4: Does you at RFK? Listen, I'm deep fried. I've deep 147 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 4: fried about I don't know twenty five turkeys in my life. 148 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:49,480 Speaker 4: I'm writing of other things too, But RFK does not. 149 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 4: He does not represent the whole frying turkey brand everybody. 150 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:54,760 Speaker 4: I mean, I'm just I'm just telling you. RFK is 151 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:56,920 Speaker 4: the definitional turkey frying guy. 152 00:07:57,160 --> 00:08:02,239 Speaker 1: So here's a question besides turkey, which is the subject 153 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:05,040 Speaker 1: I want to delve deeper into because it's such a 154 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 1: disgusting animal that I don't like to eat and it's 155 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:12,200 Speaker 1: quite gross. But more important, there really is a possibility 156 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:14,120 Speaker 1: to burn oneself quite badly. 157 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:16,680 Speaker 4: Oh, yes, many people do and you know, and I 158 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:19,120 Speaker 4: really thought about doing this. I actually had written the 159 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 4: tweet and everything, and the tweet was only libtard shill cut. 160 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 4: Don't fry their turkeys in the garage. It's only those 161 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 4: liberal frogs who cook them outside. 162 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:34,199 Speaker 1: So we are it is Thanksgiving weekend, which means Donald 163 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 1: Trump must make more announcements, because what is a weekend 164 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:43,080 Speaker 1: for if not making more appointment announcements. 165 00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:44,840 Speaker 4: To shock and horrify the American people. 166 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 1: This is one that he had been playing back and 167 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 1: forth with. We knew it was possible. We thought perhaps 168 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:53,400 Speaker 1: he would Cash Betel go. 169 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 4: Okay, you know, here's the thing. The entire purpose of 170 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:02,440 Speaker 4: all things Trump is to verify and to dismay the 171 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:05,040 Speaker 4: American people. We get it, we do. We get it. 172 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:07,960 Speaker 4: We get it. Cash Battel is a guy who is 173 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:11,000 Speaker 4: deeply unqualified, of course that goes without saying, to be 174 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 4: the FBI director. But he's also a guy who's promised 175 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:17,600 Speaker 4: many many times now that he will be the artificer 176 00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:21,320 Speaker 4: of Trump's revenge strategies against everyone who has ever offended him, 177 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:22,840 Speaker 4: and so on and so on. 178 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:25,760 Speaker 2: And so on, so a lot of people, by the way, 179 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:26,199 Speaker 2: you and. 180 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:27,880 Speaker 4: I are on the list. I'm afraid to say, but 181 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:30,560 Speaker 4: you know what, I think we are right now at 182 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 4: a moment where where Donald Trump has had a loss 183 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:38,280 Speaker 4: with Matt Gates being taken out of contention for Attorney General, 184 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:41,560 Speaker 4: and he wants and has been sold this vision by 185 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:45,280 Speaker 4: Bannon and others that the purpose of the FBI and 186 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:48,679 Speaker 4: the Department of Justice is to punish Trump's enemies. You know, 187 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:52,079 Speaker 4: he's he's if cash Betel is confirmed, and I think 188 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:56,800 Speaker 4: he probably will be because don't expect miracles from the Senate. Kids, 189 00:09:57,040 --> 00:09:58,320 Speaker 4: just don't, just do not. 190 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 1: I want to pause for a second because this is 191 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:04,160 Speaker 1: something near and dear to my heart, and I want 192 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:06,920 Speaker 1: to talk about why we should have hope and why 193 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:08,959 Speaker 1: we should not be cynical. And this is going to 194 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 1: be very annoying to you and probably listeners. But the 195 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:15,559 Speaker 1: reason why I want I want to have this conversation 196 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:20,520 Speaker 1: is because this is the more cynical we are, the 197 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 1: more things are baked in, right, the less cynical we are, 198 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:27,880 Speaker 1: the less things are baked in. So, for example, they 199 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:32,679 Speaker 1: can lose three to four senators, Trump does not necessarily 200 00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:36,320 Speaker 1: give a shit about whether or not these people get through. Right, 201 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:39,000 Speaker 1: He puts them up. But like Matt Gates isn't through 202 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:42,160 Speaker 1: now it's Pambondy. That was like a two second news cycle. 203 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:47,840 Speaker 1: So I think that Republican senators have more power than. 204 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:48,440 Speaker 2: They think here. 205 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 1: And we know with Matt Gates, the reporting at the 206 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:55,559 Speaker 1: NBC reporting was that a senator told them you have 207 00:10:55,679 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 1: twenty to thirty senator Republican senators voting against this nomination. 208 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:01,960 Speaker 1: I'm just saying, like, I don't think we should ever 209 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:03,960 Speaker 1: think of any of this as as baked in. We 210 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:07,720 Speaker 1: should always try to open the door to people doing 211 00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 1: the right thing, even though history has shown us that 212 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:13,439 Speaker 1: they haven't. This is a time though, that is much 213 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:15,239 Speaker 1: scarier than the last trumpad. 214 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:19,600 Speaker 4: I think. I think, look, the great news, the good news, 215 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:22,199 Speaker 4: I won't say greatness. The good news is that Donald 216 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:27,080 Speaker 4: Trump's people are by and large fucking morons. Right actually, 217 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:31,520 Speaker 4: in the traditional political sense of they are actually stupid people. 218 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:32,960 Speaker 4: Many of them are really dumb. 219 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 1: I was actually reading about some of the people and thinking, God, 220 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:39,800 Speaker 1: these people sound really really dumb there. 221 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:42,520 Speaker 4: Many of them are. Many of them could be easily 222 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:47,360 Speaker 4: overcome by inanimate objects right there. They are not smart guys. 223 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:50,440 Speaker 4: Now are they going to be in positions of tremendous power. Yes, 224 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:53,319 Speaker 4: they are. That should that concern all of us, absolutely, 225 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 4: it should. However, I believe right now that you've got 226 00:11:57,240 --> 00:12:00,640 Speaker 4: got a very narrow window for Donald Trump to to 227 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:03,160 Speaker 4: execute the on the worst of the crazy that he 228 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:06,400 Speaker 4: wants to execute on that window. That window is again, 229 00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 4: it is a narrow window, not a wide window. And 230 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 4: I think it's going to be hard for him to 231 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:13,080 Speaker 4: pull off some of the bullshit he wants to pull 232 00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:17,400 Speaker 4: off with these people as the Senate ends up moving 233 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:20,920 Speaker 4: from just talking about these things to having to actually 234 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:24,880 Speaker 4: take votes on the nominations of these people, as the 235 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:27,480 Speaker 4: Senate moves on to actually having to live up to 236 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:31,120 Speaker 4: actually having their names on saying oh, yeah, I was 237 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:34,439 Speaker 4: one of the guys who voted for cash Patel, right, 238 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:36,840 Speaker 4: I was one of the people who voted to put 239 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:41,480 Speaker 4: cash fricking Patel into the head of the FBI. I 240 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:46,560 Speaker 4: spoke to three separate FBI officials FORBI officials over the weekend, 241 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:48,520 Speaker 4: and none of the ones that you people think, by 242 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:49,000 Speaker 4: the way. 243 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 2: Interestingly enough, not ones on cable news, not ones on. 244 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:55,199 Speaker 4: Cable news, all of whom said to me, Yes, the 245 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 4: FBI is much more conservative than a lot of people think, 246 00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:00,680 Speaker 4: but this is crazy, and this guy is this guy 247 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:02,840 Speaker 4: is it will be? As it was pointed out to me, 248 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 4: he said, do you Somebody said to me, do you 249 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:09,199 Speaker 4: want Devin Noon as this guy? He wrote, demo, Yeah, 250 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:13,200 Speaker 4: in charge of all counter intelligence, domestic counter intelligence in 251 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:15,839 Speaker 4: this country? Is that the guy you want in that job? 252 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:19,360 Speaker 4: And the answer is obviously not only no, but fuck no. 253 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:22,760 Speaker 4: But you know, you've got a very You've got a 254 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:28,200 Speaker 4: very narrow, narrow window. While the compliance in the Senate 255 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:30,480 Speaker 4: is still high because right now the Senate guys they're 256 00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:33,800 Speaker 4: not trying to negotiate for They're not trying to negotiate 257 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:35,600 Speaker 4: for what they're going to do about you know this 258 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:38,840 Speaker 4: or that budget item. They're all sort of like, ah, fuck, 259 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 4: we got to just deal with Trump. We'll get the 260 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:43,679 Speaker 4: inauguration done, we'll get the we'll get the non controversial 261 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:46,520 Speaker 4: appointments done and move on from there. That is not 262 00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:49,360 Speaker 4: going to be easy. The longer it goes, the harder 263 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:51,960 Speaker 4: it's going to get. And look, I think this weekend 264 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:55,640 Speaker 4: putting Charles Kushner up there as our ambassador to France 265 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:57,520 Speaker 4: was an insult both to the French. 266 00:13:57,880 --> 00:13:59,959 Speaker 1: Can you push back can I push back here for sure, 267 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:02,960 Speaker 1: And I hate to be the person to say this, 268 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:07,160 Speaker 1: but ambassadors are fucking that's a pay for play gig, right, Yeah. 269 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:09,200 Speaker 4: But here's the thing. We're also in the middle of 270 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:12,920 Speaker 4: a European conflict right now. It's going to require serious people, 271 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:15,480 Speaker 4: and France is one of the most important players in 272 00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:18,560 Speaker 4: the in the conflict between Russia and Ukraine. And so 273 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 4: I'm concerned that Trump did that very deliberately to fuck 274 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:24,119 Speaker 4: to mess with the entire. 275 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:28,200 Speaker 1: I mean, except Trump put Newt Gingrich's wife as ambassador 276 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:31,320 Speaker 1: at to Holy See, his third wife, right, a Catholic. 277 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:34,160 Speaker 4: I mean, like, yeah, here's the thing we're not really 278 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 4: worried about. We're not really worried about the Vatican right 279 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:40,360 Speaker 4: now in terms of a war fighting posture, right. 280 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:43,320 Speaker 1: But I'm just saying, like, ambassadorships are known to be 281 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 1: nonpartisan grift. 282 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:47,960 Speaker 2: You know, you pay, you get an ambassadorships. 283 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 4: But here's the thing. I mean, the Court of Saint 284 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:53,120 Speaker 4: James is the a position ambassadorship. That's that's the top 285 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:55,320 Speaker 4: of the pile. There's none better than that. You don't 286 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 4: get a better you don't get a better diplomatic opportunity 287 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:00,320 Speaker 4: than that. Francis the second. 288 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, but he's putting he's putting Johnson in the or 289 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:07,080 Speaker 1: at least last time you put Johnson in the you know, 290 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 1: big Republican donor. 291 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:09,520 Speaker 2: I mean, I don't. 292 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:15,840 Speaker 1: I think putting unqualified people in ambassadorships is not is nonpartisan. 293 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:18,760 Speaker 4: I think it's insulting though to our allies. And I 294 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 4: think it I think it shows you once again this 295 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 4: is an unseerious person and in a serious time. 296 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, but except we know he's an un serious person. 297 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:30,840 Speaker 1: We know he's a fucking moron. But what's important is 298 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 1: like Cash Battel should be an eleven. 299 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:36,000 Speaker 2: Charles Kushner should be a two. 300 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 4: I don't. I don't dispute. Well, I think like a four. 301 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:41,280 Speaker 4: But okay, I don't dispute that Cash Battel is is 302 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:45,000 Speaker 4: legitimately problematic and dangerous. Right, Well, let's not let's not 303 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 4: pretend anything otherwise. He's a bad guy, and he's a 304 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:51,200 Speaker 4: guy who who is going to publicly try to be 305 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:53,080 Speaker 4: the face of Trump's revenge play. 306 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:55,440 Speaker 2: And that is you know what, No, I gotta tell 307 00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:56,160 Speaker 2: you really bad. 308 00:15:56,480 --> 00:15:59,360 Speaker 4: That's pretty bad. And and as Charlie Sykes wrote, you 309 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 4: know the purpose of Cash battels to terrify people. That's 310 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 4: why he's there. And you know, Tim Snyder has that 311 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:08,760 Speaker 4: phrase sato populism, where like the purpose of this kind 312 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:11,480 Speaker 4: of populist decision, you know, we're going to put a 313 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:13,560 Speaker 4: guy who's gonna tear it up because it's all corrupt, 314 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 4: is to scare the fuck out of people. It's a 315 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:19,160 Speaker 4: dangerous position for the country, but it's also kind of inevitable. 316 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:20,560 Speaker 4: You know. We have to we have to we have 317 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:24,360 Speaker 4: to sort of adjust our reality to the inevitability of 318 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 4: the of the shit. 319 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:26,440 Speaker 2: I agree. 320 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:29,520 Speaker 1: I also think that when we talk about Cash Battel, 321 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:34,920 Speaker 1: he's really scary. We have had really scary FBI director 322 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:37,440 Speaker 1: Herbert Hoover put my grandfather in jail. 323 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 4: Herbert Herbert Hoover was a president, right, Jed Houverer, Yeah, yeah, 324 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 4: Jed Gruber. I mean, and we have had nothing comparable 325 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:50,240 Speaker 4: to Hoover in our lifetimes. 326 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:50,880 Speaker 2: Right. 327 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:54,800 Speaker 4: No, No, thankfully, you know, thankfully. But I do think 328 00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:57,080 Speaker 4: it's important that we not we don't take our eye 329 00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:00,960 Speaker 4: off the ball. This is potentially an extraordinarily bad set 330 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:01,680 Speaker 4: of outcomes. 331 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:04,879 Speaker 1: No, I agree, which is why I think it's so 332 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 1: important that people like Mike Ground who was on ABC 333 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:12,440 Speaker 1: today talking about how how good Christopher Ray is. There's 334 00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:15,600 Speaker 1: no reason Ray has three more years on his term, right, this. 335 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:18,640 Speaker 4: Is there's no way Trump let's Ray stay in that office. 336 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:20,600 Speaker 4: They will die on that hill. 337 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:26,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, But I also think, like there's RFK, there's Ray Talsy, 338 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:28,200 Speaker 1: and then there's Pete Hegseth. 339 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:31,119 Speaker 4: Well, look, I think I think Pete Hegseth is now 340 00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:35,639 Speaker 4: edging toward being disqualified in this job. But even in 341 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:37,960 Speaker 4: the minds of some of Trump's allies, they're not like 342 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:40,639 Speaker 4: this email from his own mother about his character and 343 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:42,960 Speaker 4: the way he treats women. I am not easily. You 344 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:45,840 Speaker 4: and I are both, you know, were fairly jaundice about 345 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:49,080 Speaker 4: this kind of thing. That was pretty horrifying. I think 346 00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:51,960 Speaker 4: we have to just admit it. That was pretty pretty 347 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:54,600 Speaker 4: damn horrifying. That was not if you're a person with 348 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:59,280 Speaker 4: any judgment about character, and you think character matters at all, 349 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:01,959 Speaker 4: you can't have this guy as the secretary of Defense. 350 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:02,520 Speaker 4: You just can't. 351 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:07,600 Speaker 1: Right, Adultery is against the rules in the army. 352 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:10,680 Speaker 4: Yes, well, yes it is. It is very much against 353 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:14,400 Speaker 4: the rules. And by the way, not simply because there's 354 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:18,240 Speaker 4: some moral thing there. It's because it compromises you in 355 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:21,679 Speaker 4: your in your national security position. It makes you vulnerable 356 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:26,320 Speaker 4: to blackmail, it makes you vulnerable to manipulation, it makes 357 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:30,760 Speaker 4: your decisions questioned by your own people as well. But 358 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:33,120 Speaker 4: I do think it's important that we look at all 359 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:35,600 Speaker 4: of these sort of moments we're in right now and 360 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:38,080 Speaker 4: ask the question, like, you know, is there a solution 361 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:41,359 Speaker 4: to the Cash Betel problem? Is this a guy you 362 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:44,399 Speaker 4: can you could find a way to ensure that he 363 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:47,320 Speaker 4: doesn't get the nomination. I think there are still there's 364 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:51,160 Speaker 4: still a possibility he doesn't get it. But right now 365 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:54,680 Speaker 4: Trump is he's going to start acting more and more 366 00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:59,600 Speaker 4: childish and judgmental and angry as things are denied. 367 00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:02,960 Speaker 1: To him, except that he also doesn't really care if 368 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:07,240 Speaker 1: these people get through. So you know, certainly not RFK Junior. 369 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:11,360 Speaker 4: Right, here's the thing, Okay, I generally agree with that, 370 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:13,679 Speaker 4: that he doesn't really care much about these people. I 371 00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:17,000 Speaker 4: generally agree with that, but I'm always curious, and lately 372 00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:21,200 Speaker 4: particularly curious. I'm always curious. Like Trump wants certain things, 373 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 4: he wants certain outcomes. One of those outcomes is revenge 374 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:28,479 Speaker 4: on his enemies, right, and a guy like Cash mattel 375 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:31,600 Speaker 4: is offering him that, mister President, I will, I will. 376 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:34,600 Speaker 4: I will crush your enemies before you. I will humiliate them, 377 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:36,800 Speaker 4: I will hurt them. I will, I will bankrupt them. 378 00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:38,919 Speaker 4: I will. I will use the power of the state 379 00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:42,440 Speaker 4: to go after people that don't like you and that 380 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:45,280 Speaker 4: have and that have hurt you, sir, so so badly. 381 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:47,640 Speaker 4: But I look, I find this. I find the entire 382 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:50,840 Speaker 4: idea that Trump is going to let this go and 383 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:54,880 Speaker 4: is not going to respond to opposition in the Senate. Now, 384 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:57,760 Speaker 4: there will be a point where he says that he's 385 00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:01,119 Speaker 4: going to start, you know, acting, asking his people to 386 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:05,080 Speaker 4: revenge him from these these people in the Senate who 387 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:07,399 Speaker 4: aren't giving him what he wants. I mean, I'm you 388 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:10,119 Speaker 4: know that Mike Davis guy. The other day, right after 389 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:13,320 Speaker 4: Patel was named, Mike Davis came out and said something 390 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:15,679 Speaker 4: to the effect of of, yeah, I dare you not 391 00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:18,160 Speaker 4: to vote for him, We'll make your lives a living hell. 392 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:18,520 Speaker 5: Right. 393 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 1: But they didn't even have to not vote for Matt Gates. 394 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:23,960 Speaker 1: I mean, that's just you know, like Ma Gates, I mean, 395 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:26,200 Speaker 1: that's the other thing. Just for a minute to pause 396 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:30,960 Speaker 1: and think about It's December first, right. So Trump doesn't 397 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:36,000 Speaker 1: even get into office until January twenty first, there's a 398 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:38,960 Speaker 1: lot of time, just like we saw with Matt Gates, 399 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:41,800 Speaker 1: Like Matt Gates pulled himself out of this thing because 400 00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:45,119 Speaker 1: he knew there was a lot more coming, right, Sure, 401 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:49,080 Speaker 1: So the question is, like, you know, does that happen 402 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:52,399 Speaker 1: to Pete Hegsaths Does that happen to I mean, I 403 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:52,960 Speaker 1: think I. 404 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:55,879 Speaker 4: Would put Pete heggsth higher on the list of potential 405 00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 4: you blowout? Can people? They just go, yeah, I can't 406 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:01,280 Speaker 4: I President, I love you, I can't do it. I 407 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:04,119 Speaker 4: can't deal with this guy right right right, because he 408 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:06,679 Speaker 4: really is egregious. I mean he really is is a 409 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:11,480 Speaker 4: he combines being unqualified with also being horrifying. 410 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:14,679 Speaker 1: One other thing I think about Pete Hegseth and I 411 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:17,280 Speaker 1: think when I think about these candidates is like a 412 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:20,240 Speaker 1: lot of them want to make money and don't necessarily 413 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:24,639 Speaker 1: want to surmman service soon. Oh sure, so to fight 414 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:26,600 Speaker 1: and fight and fight to get a job you don't 415 00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 1: necessarily want. 416 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:31,159 Speaker 4: Yeah, that look that I think that's a legitimate observation 417 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 4: about Like there are a lot of reasons why why 418 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:37,480 Speaker 4: you would not go to the mattresses for Pete Hegseth, 419 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:40,040 Speaker 4: and Pete Hegseth probably has a good number of reasons 420 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:42,399 Speaker 4: now that he's starting to consider what's going to happen, 421 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 4: He's probably got a good number of reasons why he 422 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:46,400 Speaker 4: doesn't want to go to the mattresses because right now 423 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:48,879 Speaker 4: today he can go back to Fox, right, you know, 424 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 4: he could go back to Fox. He could be whatever 425 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:54,080 Speaker 4: again at Fox. That's all find and good. But I 426 00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:56,280 Speaker 4: don't know. I don't know if you got it with 427 00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:59,360 Speaker 4: Pete Hegseth, if you get like a second chance at 428 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:02,560 Speaker 4: political life after this, given the stuff we're hearing about it, 429 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:04,720 Speaker 4: I think the stuff we're hearing about Hexth is a 430 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:07,640 Speaker 4: different level than a lot of these other guys. It's 431 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:12,040 Speaker 4: it's a more it's an uglier, nastier kind of story 432 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:13,119 Speaker 4: about this guy's character. 433 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:16,760 Speaker 1: We'll see what happens. But I do want to talk 434 00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:20,840 Speaker 1: about what you what you think is sort of next coming. 435 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:24,640 Speaker 4: Fire, death, screaming, running in the darkness, you know, the. 436 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:28,000 Speaker 2: Usual No is bright and Florida. 437 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:30,000 Speaker 4: No. Look, I think I think we are in a 438 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:32,480 Speaker 4: very I think we're in a very dangerous moment because 439 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:36,880 Speaker 4: there is that that sort of Bannen Nunez weirdo wing 440 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:40,320 Speaker 4: of the party that really wants even if Trump isn't 441 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:43,399 Speaker 4: that interested in all these in punishing all these people, 442 00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:46,040 Speaker 4: I think there's a there's a a wing of the 443 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:50,240 Speaker 4: of the Trump apparatus that is very interested in punishing people, 444 00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:53,119 Speaker 4: and very interested in hurting people, and very interested in 445 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 4: causing You know that, as as Tim Sider says, sato 446 00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 4: populism to become a big part of the of the story, 447 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:02,639 Speaker 4: I think I can't ignore that there are people like 448 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:05,800 Speaker 4: that around him. There are a lot of people like 449 00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:08,960 Speaker 4: that around him who really really really really really hate 450 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:10,679 Speaker 4: people like us. And I'm not just saying it's just 451 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:13,440 Speaker 4: about us, but it ain't not just about us either. 452 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:17,520 Speaker 2: Rick Wilson my moment of zen and calm, the. 453 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:19,600 Speaker 4: Service as always, all right, I'll talk to you sin, 454 00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:21,720 Speaker 4: all right, all right, talk to you Sin. Bye bye. 455 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:27,879 Speaker 1: Carolyn Kitchener is a national reporter covering abortion at the 456 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:28,840 Speaker 1: Washington Post. 457 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:33,159 Speaker 5: Welcome back, Caroline, Thank you so much, Molly, thanks for 458 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:33,680 Speaker 5: having me. 459 00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:37,040 Speaker 1: You do this beat, which is abortion, we productive hows 460 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:39,719 Speaker 1: more broadly by abortion is likely going to be the 461 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:44,320 Speaker 1: first opening salvo in disassembling our rights. 462 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:46,119 Speaker 2: How long have you been on this beat, and what 463 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:47,439 Speaker 2: does it feel like right now. 464 00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 5: I've been writing about this issue for almost six years. 465 00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:54,360 Speaker 5: It wasn't my full time job at the beginning. It's 466 00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:58,840 Speaker 5: been my full time thing for three of those years. 467 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:03,080 Speaker 5: I'm still surprised, like I'm still surprised at things that 468 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:06,640 Speaker 5: happen on the speed. It's still so fast evolving. I mean, 469 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:09,639 Speaker 5: we are now more than two years, about two and 470 00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:12,080 Speaker 5: a half years out from the fall of Ruby Wade, 471 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:16,040 Speaker 5: and the dynamics keep changing. And I think it is 472 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:19,919 Speaker 5: hard to predict what a Trump administration could bring for 473 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:20,680 Speaker 5: this issue. 474 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:23,320 Speaker 2: But it's not going to be good. I'm going to 475 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:25,200 Speaker 2: put my hand on a rock right now and say 476 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:25,920 Speaker 2: it's not going to be good. 477 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:27,879 Speaker 1: I want to talk about the election for a minute, 478 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:31,960 Speaker 1: because a lot of places voters did this thing where 479 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:36,359 Speaker 1: they voted to enshrine abortion rights in their constitution, but 480 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:40,200 Speaker 1: then voted for Trump or Republicans or seem to not 481 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:44,160 Speaker 1: quite make the leap to realize that the people they 482 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 1: were voting for now have to enact a lot of 483 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:51,879 Speaker 1: these ballot initiatives, and as we've seen from Florida, a 484 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:55,119 Speaker 1: lot of times Republicans just don't do what the people 485 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:55,720 Speaker 1: vote for. 486 00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 5: I spent a lot of time ahead of the election 487 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:03,919 Speaker 5: talk to people who really care about abortion rights, who 488 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:07,840 Speaker 5: are per choice, but who are also more Republican leaning 489 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:11,480 Speaker 5: or independent. I really wanted to figure out, like how 490 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:14,840 Speaker 5: when people were faced, you know, not just with the 491 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:18,240 Speaker 5: direct question of do you want to enshrine abortion rights 492 00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:21,080 Speaker 5: in the constitution, but who do you want for president? 493 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:23,359 Speaker 5: I wanted to know how much their views on abortion 494 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:26,359 Speaker 5: would factor into that decision. And before the election, I mean, 495 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:29,320 Speaker 5: I just I really struggled to find people that were 496 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:32,639 Speaker 5: wrestling with that. Like almost everybody that I found to 497 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:35,960 Speaker 5: talk to was like, oh, yeah, I support abortion rights, 498 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:38,120 Speaker 5: I care a lot about this issue, but I'm voting 499 00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:38,600 Speaker 5: for Trump. 500 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:41,720 Speaker 1: Wow, And were you like, were you guys like he 501 00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:45,159 Speaker 1: did overturn revyweight or they just didn't put it together. 502 00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:45,960 Speaker 2: Yeah. 503 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:49,439 Speaker 5: I mean I would always ask that question, and it 504 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:51,760 Speaker 5: was interesting. I mean, I think you had some people 505 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:55,200 Speaker 5: for whom abortion is just you know, fairly far down 506 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:57,640 Speaker 5: on the list, like of the issues that they care about, 507 00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 5: they care about, you know, the economy, immigration, more. But 508 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:02,840 Speaker 5: then here are other women that I spoke to, and 509 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:06,679 Speaker 5: this was like these interviews were mostly with women They said, 510 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:08,800 Speaker 5: I just don't think he's going to do anything else 511 00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:10,440 Speaker 5: on this because. 512 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,000 Speaker 2: We've lost so many rights. What's another one. 513 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:14,720 Speaker 5: He wants it to go back to the States. That 514 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:18,800 Speaker 5: was a line that really resonated with people. They really 515 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:20,840 Speaker 5: believe that, you know, he wants me to go back 516 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:24,439 Speaker 5: to the States, and they just weren't concerned. Which was 517 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:27,159 Speaker 5: interesting because what you saw as you got further and 518 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:31,120 Speaker 5: further into the campaign was Trump and Vance doing everything 519 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:33,600 Speaker 5: that they could to move away from this issue and 520 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:36,320 Speaker 5: to convince people of exactly this that they were not 521 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:38,719 Speaker 5: going to do more that they would veto a national 522 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:41,720 Speaker 5: abortion ban, all of those things. And what I found 523 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:46,000 Speaker 5: from my reporting is that those messages really resonated with 524 00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:49,399 Speaker 5: the group of people that Harris and Trump were fighting for, 525 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:52,040 Speaker 5: these Republican leaning independent women. 526 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:57,160 Speaker 1: So explain, yeah, I mean, I need. 527 00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:57,479 Speaker 2: More on this. 528 00:26:57,840 --> 00:26:59,879 Speaker 5: What you heard a lot in the campaign when it 529 00:26:59,880 --> 00:27:04,560 Speaker 5: came to abortion policies was national abortion ban. You heard 530 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:09,880 Speaker 5: a lot about that concept, and I do think it's very, 531 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:13,000 Speaker 5: very unlikely that a national abortion ban would pass, just 532 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:15,879 Speaker 5: because of the reality of what Congress looks like. But 533 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:17,919 Speaker 5: what is also true is that there's a lot of 534 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:23,640 Speaker 5: things that the Trump administration could do without Congress com stack. Yeah, 535 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:26,080 Speaker 5: the constack through the agencies, Like, there are a lot 536 00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:28,280 Speaker 5: of things that they could do, but all of those 537 00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:31,639 Speaker 5: things that they could do are like they're much more nuanced. 538 00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:34,320 Speaker 5: They are sort of hard to explain. They're a little 539 00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 5: bit more in the weeds. People didn't know about those things. 540 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:40,720 Speaker 5: You know, Harris didn't really make those things part of 541 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:43,400 Speaker 5: the conversation. I would say, she really just kept talking 542 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:45,960 Speaker 5: about the National Abortion Band. So the women that I 543 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:49,159 Speaker 5: spoke to were kind of sharp enough to realize that, 544 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:52,600 Speaker 5: like that was very unlikely. And you know, which is 545 00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:54,960 Speaker 5: something that I agree with. It wasn't on their radar 546 00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:57,640 Speaker 5: that there were other things that a Trump administration could 547 00:27:57,680 --> 00:27:58,760 Speaker 5: do on this issue. 548 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:02,959 Speaker 1: Let's talk for a minute about what is going on 549 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:06,280 Speaker 1: right now. There are all of these balid initiatives. Do 550 00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:08,160 Speaker 1: you think that they will get enacted? 551 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:10,680 Speaker 5: I do. I mean the ones that pass Every time 552 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,560 Speaker 5: I talk about this. It's the results of the ballot 553 00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:18,119 Speaker 5: initiatives were complicated because while the abortion rights side, you know, 554 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:21,560 Speaker 5: succeeded in seven of the ten states where abortion was 555 00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,119 Speaker 5: on the ballot, they failed in Florida. And that's not 556 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:27,160 Speaker 5: because it wasn't popular in Florida. It's because in Florida 557 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 5: you needed sixty percent, which is really hard for anything. 558 00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:34,320 Speaker 5: But Florida was just far and away the most important 559 00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 5: state for this, just because of like how big this 560 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:40,560 Speaker 5: state is and it's the third most populous state. Just 561 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:43,800 Speaker 5: a ton of abortions, especially before the six week ban 562 00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:46,600 Speaker 5: took effect, just a ton of abortions happened there. It 563 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:50,680 Speaker 5: was for a long time this like oasis of abortion 564 00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:53,400 Speaker 5: access in the South, which now we have, you know, 565 00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:56,680 Speaker 5: strict bands blanketing the whole region. So it was really, 566 00:28:56,760 --> 00:29:01,800 Speaker 5: really really important for abortion rights advocates, Like that state 567 00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:04,840 Speaker 5: was sort of the like the crown jewel of the 568 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:08,040 Speaker 5: ballot initiatives, and it didn't pass there. So I think 569 00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:10,000 Speaker 5: it is really hard to know where to go from here. 570 00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:13,640 Speaker 5: I mean, for abortion rights advocates, these ballot measures, they're 571 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:15,880 Speaker 5: very excited about the prospect of the battle measures, but 572 00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:19,719 Speaker 5: they don't solve the issue in every state because in 573 00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:22,600 Speaker 5: different states it's harder to get it on or even 574 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:25,480 Speaker 5: impossible to get it on. I mean Texas, Like it's 575 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:28,400 Speaker 5: just that it would never happen in Texas, and it's 576 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:31,720 Speaker 5: not this sort of cure al that abortion rights advocates 577 00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:34,280 Speaker 5: are really hoping for, right, Like. 578 00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:36,760 Speaker 2: What does the abortion landscape look like now? 579 00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:41,160 Speaker 1: If you are a woman who gets pregnant in one 580 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:45,280 Speaker 1: of these states, say South Carolina, where can you go? 581 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:49,880 Speaker 1: Where are the few sort of free states still? 582 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:54,160 Speaker 5: Well? I think what the reality for women in these 583 00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:57,520 Speaker 5: states with strict bands is that this landscape looks like 584 00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:00,680 Speaker 5: the internet more than traveling to well, I don't know 585 00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:02,560 Speaker 5: that I can say more than traveling to other states, 586 00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:05,760 Speaker 5: but what so many people are doing now is going 587 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:10,320 Speaker 5: online and ordering pills. And that is a thing that 588 00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:13,160 Speaker 5: the Trump administration could get in the way of. It's 589 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:15,440 Speaker 5: unclear whether they're going to make a move to do that, 590 00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:18,080 Speaker 5: but they could. But in terms of like where there 591 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:22,320 Speaker 5: is access, I mean, for somebody in Florida, the nearest 592 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:26,400 Speaker 5: clinic is going to be North Carolina, which is you know, 593 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:29,040 Speaker 5: if you're in Miami. I don't know off the top 594 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:31,400 Speaker 5: of my head, but that is a really, really, really 595 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:35,040 Speaker 5: long drive. When I visited, I went to a Florida 596 00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:37,600 Speaker 5: clinic right after the band took a fact in the spring, 597 00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:40,160 Speaker 5: and they weren't talking about driving. They were talking about flying, 598 00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:43,840 Speaker 5: like they just it's not a realistic drive for people 599 00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:46,720 Speaker 5: to make and but for a lot of the women 600 00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:49,120 Speaker 5: that I was speaking to, it just you know, many 601 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:52,040 Speaker 5: of them had never been on a plane. Like the 602 00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:54,280 Speaker 5: idea that they would just you know, get on a 603 00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:57,719 Speaker 5: plane and somehow leave their families and get childcare and 604 00:30:58,000 --> 00:30:59,320 Speaker 5: all the things that you have to do to go 605 00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:02,800 Speaker 5: on a trip was just you know, even the money aside, 606 00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:04,040 Speaker 5: it just wasn't realistic. 607 00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,920 Speaker 1: These women will be okay with the abortion pills until 608 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:08,280 Speaker 1: they're not. 609 00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:13,040 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean the anti abortion side has identified pills 610 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:16,640 Speaker 5: as the target, right. You know, they know that this 611 00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:20,680 Speaker 5: is happening. They know that many pills are getting to 612 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:24,080 Speaker 5: people in vand states through websites. You Know what I 613 00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:28,120 Speaker 5: heard consistently for you know, a year plus before the 614 00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:31,000 Speaker 5: election was then this is from the anti abortion side, 615 00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:34,040 Speaker 5: we're not going to see anything until the election. They 616 00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:36,360 Speaker 5: didn't want to really crack down before the election because 617 00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:40,760 Speaker 5: they knew that this issue was very popular. But now, 618 00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:43,040 Speaker 5: you know, I just had a piece out last week 619 00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:45,680 Speaker 5: that was about you know what all of the anti 620 00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:49,080 Speaker 5: abortion groups are planning, particularly like the statewide once there's 621 00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:51,640 Speaker 5: there's a very active group in Texas called Texas Right 622 00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:54,600 Speaker 5: to Life that's the biggest anti abortion group there. They 623 00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 5: have really a reputation for you know, trying like particularly 624 00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 5: aggressive and creative ways to like crack down on things 625 00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:03,480 Speaker 5: and really you know, set the bar for the rest 626 00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:06,320 Speaker 5: of the country, you know, when it comes to anti 627 00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:10,320 Speaker 5: abortion crackdown measures, and they are ready are they are 628 00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:13,280 Speaker 5: planning you know, several new lawsuits that we're going to 629 00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:15,719 Speaker 5: see early in the new year. They are trying to 630 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:20,640 Speaker 5: find plaintiffs. They're looking specifically for like male partners of 631 00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:23,280 Speaker 5: women who had abortions that are upset. So I do 632 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:27,040 Speaker 5: think you're going to see a wave of like attempts 633 00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:30,520 Speaker 5: to crack down on pills getting into band states. 634 00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:34,120 Speaker 1: Your body, my choice, right, I mean, ultimately that's what 635 00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:35,280 Speaker 1: we're talking about, right. 636 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:41,000 Speaker 5: I think that they recognize that these men are their 637 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:46,880 Speaker 5: best option for pursuing some of these lawsuits, and they 638 00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:51,000 Speaker 5: are recruiting them. They are going to like anti abortion 639 00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:55,040 Speaker 5: crisis pregnancy centers, and they are looking for, you know, 640 00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:57,600 Speaker 5: people that are close to a woman who had an 641 00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:00,000 Speaker 5: abortion and who are angry about it. 642 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:03,280 Speaker 1: Ask about the women who can't get pre natal care, 643 00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:06,320 Speaker 1: Like what's happening to women not getting dncs? 644 00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:08,160 Speaker 2: Because I know you wrote about that, and that is 645 00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:09,320 Speaker 2: just horrifying. 646 00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:12,400 Speaker 5: Yeah, I think that everybody should be watching the maternal 647 00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:18,240 Speaker 5: mortality committees. So every state has a committee mostly medical experts. 648 00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:22,120 Speaker 5: Usually it's about twenty and they get together and they 649 00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:26,600 Speaker 5: review cases of maternal deaths and they are looking to 650 00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:30,600 Speaker 5: really dig in and see what went wrong and was 651 00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:35,040 Speaker 5: this preventable? And these committees they, for various reasons, they 652 00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:38,160 Speaker 5: operate on about a two year lag And so we 653 00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:42,040 Speaker 5: are just now at the point when these committees are 654 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:44,840 Speaker 5: starting to review cases that may have been affected by 655 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:47,560 Speaker 5: the fall of Row and all of these new bands. 656 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:50,520 Speaker 5: And so what I am watching for now is, you know, 657 00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:54,040 Speaker 5: obviously there have been some incredible reporting from Pro Publica 658 00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:56,920 Speaker 5: on you know, individual cases of women who have died. 659 00:33:57,040 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 5: The question though, that I think everyone is wondering, is like, 660 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:02,880 Speaker 5: how much is that happening? How often is that happening? 661 00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:06,960 Speaker 5: What is the big picture there? And these maternal mortality 662 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:09,480 Speaker 5: committees they are where we will get that big picture. 663 00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:11,440 Speaker 5: That is something to watch for, I think in the 664 00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:12,080 Speaker 5: coming months. 665 00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:15,239 Speaker 1: Yeah, we're seeing more and more of that. So talk 666 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:18,879 Speaker 1: to us for a minute about how we're seeing Republicans 667 00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:22,319 Speaker 1: kind of mess with that, right isn't there some way 668 00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:25,399 Speaker 1: in which Republicans are trying to make it so they're 669 00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:27,040 Speaker 1: not reviewing the data as quickly. 670 00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:31,360 Speaker 5: Yeah, well, I just had a story yesterday about in Texas, 671 00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:34,560 Speaker 5: which is the biggest state with a strict abortion man. 672 00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:36,759 Speaker 5: It was the first state to enact as strict abortion man. 673 00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:40,279 Speaker 5: So it's really important for getting a big picture of 674 00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:42,640 Speaker 5: what's happening, like just state by state. 675 00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:45,920 Speaker 2: Because their ban also started a year before. 676 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:48,439 Speaker 5: Exactly nine months before, and so it just gives us 677 00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:51,719 Speaker 5: like more perspective than really any other state. And so 678 00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:54,120 Speaker 5: that's the one that I've been watching most closely. And 679 00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:57,960 Speaker 5: the committee was told recently that this is what I 680 00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:01,920 Speaker 5: recorded yesterday. They were told recent that they would be 681 00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:06,279 Speaker 5: skipping over the years twenty twenty two and twenty twenty three, 682 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:09,360 Speaker 5: which you know, the first two years that the abortion 683 00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:12,279 Speaker 5: van was in effect. You know, they said that they 684 00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:17,239 Speaker 5: were doing this to be more contemporaneous, is what they said. Basically, 685 00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:21,400 Speaker 5: they see their charge, as you know, examining cases in 686 00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:24,840 Speaker 5: a timely manner so that it can inform the recommendations 687 00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:27,359 Speaker 5: that they give to policymakers. And they were saying, you know, 688 00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:30,040 Speaker 5: we just feel we're on too much of a delay, 689 00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:34,399 Speaker 5: so it doesn't allow us to provide timely recommendations, and 690 00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:37,319 Speaker 5: that is why we are changing this. I spoke with 691 00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:39,960 Speaker 5: several members of the committee who you know, all spoke 692 00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:44,160 Speaker 5: anonymously that we're really concerned about this because, you know, 693 00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:47,359 Speaker 5: they they see as we all do, that those years 694 00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:50,600 Speaker 5: are really important to examine because they're the first two 695 00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:54,200 Speaker 5: full years that this like new policy, this huge new 696 00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:58,080 Speaker 5: policy that affects maternal health is taking effect. And by 697 00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:00,640 Speaker 5: skipping them, like you're you know, they they were very 698 00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:03,520 Speaker 5: concerned that they were going to miss deaths and the 699 00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:06,840 Speaker 5: deaths you know that resulted from abortion bands, and that 700 00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:08,000 Speaker 5: was very concerning to them. 701 00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:11,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, It's unbelievable. 702 00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:12,800 Speaker 2: So what are you watching now? 703 00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:16,279 Speaker 5: I will definitely be watching these maternal mortality committees, but 704 00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:20,600 Speaker 5: I also think that it's important to watch a couple 705 00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:24,839 Speaker 5: of key agencies and then the Trump administration, particularly the 706 00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:27,799 Speaker 5: Department of Justice, the Department of Health and Human Services 707 00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:31,560 Speaker 5: HHS was actually the one, it really is the agency 708 00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:34,440 Speaker 5: that the anti abortion groups were most you know, have 709 00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:37,440 Speaker 5: been most focused on. Was Trump has done all of 710 00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:40,680 Speaker 5: these gymnastics to back away from abortion. They have been 711 00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:44,759 Speaker 5: later focused on who he appoints to lead HHS and 712 00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:48,440 Speaker 5: what's so they've been really you know, fighting hard. They 713 00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:52,400 Speaker 5: were fighting hard to get him to pick somebody who 714 00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:57,000 Speaker 5: was anti abortion and also have anti abortion under secretaries 715 00:36:57,040 --> 00:37:00,480 Speaker 5: as well. That's not how that played out. RFK is 716 00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:04,440 Speaker 5: you know, obviously a very complicated figure. But you know, 717 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:07,560 Speaker 5: he has expressed support for abortion rights, like he is 718 00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:11,360 Speaker 5: pro choice, and so that is not the person, right, well, 719 00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:12,160 Speaker 5: theorectly right. 720 00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:16,040 Speaker 2: He's also pro raw milk, but yes, continue. 721 00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:18,040 Speaker 5: But when it comes to this issue, he has you know, 722 00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:22,200 Speaker 5: publicly expressed that he is very in supportive abortion rights. 723 00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:24,520 Speaker 5: So that obviously wasn't the person that they wanted. And 724 00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:27,600 Speaker 5: then to add on to that, we had, you know, 725 00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:32,960 Speaker 5: Roger Severino, who wrote the HHS and abortion related chapter 726 00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:35,040 Speaker 5: of Project twenty twenty five. A lot of there was 727 00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:37,200 Speaker 5: a big campaign, and I think a lot of people 728 00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:40,520 Speaker 5: expected that he would be appointed as an under secretary 729 00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:42,960 Speaker 5: in HHS, and it just came out that he is 730 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:45,239 Speaker 5: not being selected for that. So that was another blow 731 00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:47,920 Speaker 5: to the anti abortion movement. So I sort of watching 732 00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:52,040 Speaker 5: that with interest play out because I do think that 733 00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:55,960 Speaker 5: that is you know, potentially the Trump administratortion saying, like, 734 00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:59,760 Speaker 5: we recognize that people are very upset about this issue, 735 00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:02,560 Speaker 5: not going to do anything about it right now at least, 736 00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:04,840 Speaker 5: but I think it's just important. I think it's an 737 00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:07,040 Speaker 5: important thing to keep an eye on. Is who he 738 00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:08,880 Speaker 5: has leading those agencies. 739 00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:12,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll say, and I think that we are in 740 00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:15,040 Speaker 1: this bizarre, bizarre moment in American history. 741 00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:17,000 Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you, thank you. I hope you will 742 00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:17,480 Speaker 2: come back. 743 00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:18,920 Speaker 5: Thank you so much for having me. 744 00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:25,880 Speaker 4: No moment full so, Molly, my moment of fuckery here 745 00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:28,640 Speaker 4: is that Cash Bttel is already saying that as the 746 00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:31,719 Speaker 4: director of the FBI, of the nation's pre eminent law 747 00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:35,640 Speaker 4: enforcement organization, that he is going to use the power 748 00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:39,520 Speaker 4: of the FBI to punish people that he doesn't like 749 00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:41,680 Speaker 4: and that Donald Trump doesn't like, and that have that 750 00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:44,319 Speaker 4: we're quote unquote very mean to Donald Trump. And so 751 00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:47,600 Speaker 4: the odd thing about our country right now, in my mind, 752 00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:50,799 Speaker 4: is that this is being taken as a sort of 753 00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:54,440 Speaker 4: normal activity. This is being seen as kind of like, 754 00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:58,319 Speaker 4: this is what they get to do because Trump won 755 00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:01,080 Speaker 4: the election. I find that more than a little bit 756 00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:03,520 Speaker 4: disturbing and were a little bit troubling, and I find 757 00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:06,920 Speaker 4: it fascinating that a lot of our media friends are 758 00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:10,919 Speaker 4: pretty much normalizing this one too. There's a sense of like, oh, well, 759 00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:13,520 Speaker 4: you know that's Trump. Trump won. I guess, so here 760 00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:16,440 Speaker 4: we are. I think Patel is a is a separate 761 00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:20,759 Speaker 4: level of shit that's worse than, worse than in consequence 762 00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:22,920 Speaker 4: than a lot of these other possible appointments that Trump's 763 00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:23,480 Speaker 4: talking about. 764 00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:26,719 Speaker 1: So I'm going to for my moment of fuck Graham, 765 00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:27,960 Speaker 1: going to disagree with you. 766 00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:30,120 Speaker 4: Wow, Okay, see how it is. 767 00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:34,399 Speaker 1: I think that for sure, Trump is an autocrat, ran 768 00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:37,120 Speaker 1: as an autocrat, probably would say he was an autocrat 769 00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:41,440 Speaker 1: and a candidate, we couldn't normalize him for sure because 770 00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:46,200 Speaker 1: he was running on a completely non democratic platform. But 771 00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:49,239 Speaker 1: now that he is president, we have to cover him, 772 00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:50,560 Speaker 1: and that doesn't mean. 773 00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:52,920 Speaker 4: Normal I'm what he's saying, we don't cover him. 774 00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:56,520 Speaker 1: Right, But I'm just saying, like the idea, I feel 775 00:39:56,560 --> 00:40:00,759 Speaker 1: like the millions of people voted for him, and that 776 00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:04,360 Speaker 1: is in itself a kind of normalization, like it or not. 777 00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:08,239 Speaker 1: And so I do think like that is why when 778 00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:10,120 Speaker 1: we cover him, we have to be so focused on 779 00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:14,480 Speaker 1: norms and institutions and the real damage as opposed to 780 00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:16,240 Speaker 1: the astatic damage. 781 00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:18,279 Speaker 4: Yeah, look, I get that, I get that, But I 782 00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:22,640 Speaker 4: do think you can't ignore the potential presence of a 783 00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:27,080 Speaker 4: administration that is overtly dedicated to punishing its enemies. 784 00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:29,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, I think. 785 00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:30,480 Speaker 4: You got You've got to keep that, You've got to 786 00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:32,840 Speaker 4: keep that sort of top of mind about what the 787 00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:36,600 Speaker 4: what the consequences are of the consequences of ignoring that, 788 00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:38,920 Speaker 4: I think are are high order bad as I like 789 00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:40,000 Speaker 4: to say I have. 790 00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:41,759 Speaker 2: I feel like we're not going to be able to 791 00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:42,239 Speaker 2: ignore it. 792 00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:47,040 Speaker 1: Rick, personally and professionally, we are now, No, we are not. 793 00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:49,520 Speaker 2: Rick Wilson, Thank you, Thank you. 794 00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:55,160 Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in 795 00:40:55,320 --> 00:41:01,320 Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Saturday to the best minds 796 00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:05,239 Speaker 1: and politics make sense of all this chaos. If you 797 00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:08,759 Speaker 1: enjoy this podcast, please send it to a friend and 798 00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:10,280 Speaker 1: keep the conversation going. 799 00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:11,880 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening.