1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:27,920 Speaker 1: Ridiculous Histories, a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to the show, 2 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:31,880 Speaker 1: fellow Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much for 3 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:39,560 Speaker 1: tuning in. Previously on Ridiculous History, we examined the phenomenal 4 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:45,520 Speaker 1: story of people conducting trade craft of people conducting espionage 5 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:51,240 Speaker 1: and acts of spying through something as humble as knitting crafts. 6 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:51,959 Speaker 2: Crafts. 7 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:55,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, there, we draft perfect, and we want to give 8 00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 1: a shout out to our big homie, our super producer, 9 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:01,680 Speaker 1: Max Crochet. 10 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 2: Croquet Croquette. Wait a minute, different things, Williams. That is 11 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:11,400 Speaker 2: Bizar Falcons. 12 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:14,560 Speaker 1: We also have lightly pitched the idea of a Falcon 13 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:19,520 Speaker 1: tsar to ourselves off air. We took, we took a 14 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:22,679 Speaker 1: quick break, but through the magic of editing, we are 15 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 1: rejoining you today. Let's hear it for none other than 16 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:29,880 Speaker 1: the one and only mister Noel Brown. 17 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:31,800 Speaker 2: Does I tis you? 18 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 1: My friends, they called me Ben Bullen in this neck 19 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 1: of the global woods for tax purposes. You can obviously 20 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:45,760 Speaker 1: communicate my comings and goings through a v or a 21 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:47,760 Speaker 1: pearl in a scarf. 22 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:50,480 Speaker 2: I'll bring a scarf right now because it's kind of 23 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 2: got chilli today. It's unpredictable. I walked out, and I 24 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:57,400 Speaker 2: yelled at the sky, what that is such an old 25 00:01:57,440 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 2: man thing to do with you been, and I'm here 26 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:00,880 Speaker 2: for it. I mean, you shake your fist. 27 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:06,120 Speaker 1: This is the thing, though, nol So we all reside 28 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:11,000 Speaker 1: in the Atlanta metro area, and everybody in Atlanta, if 29 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:14,000 Speaker 1: you've never had the privilege to visit, please please let 30 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 1: us know and we'll hang out. But everybody in Atlanta 31 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:19,920 Speaker 1: will tend to speak to you as though they know 32 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:23,280 Speaker 1: you and you're vaguely related. So this is a true story. 33 00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 1: This morning when I walked out and as he said, Noel, 34 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:29,680 Speaker 1: the weather totally did a one to eighty on us. 35 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:33,560 Speaker 1: I yelled what because I was aggravated. It was very 36 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:36,359 Speaker 1: early in the morning, and there was a guy walking 37 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:39,280 Speaker 1: through the parking lot who turned around and said, I. 38 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:43,680 Speaker 2: Know, I said, seriously, I think I maybe did shake 39 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:46,680 Speaker 2: my fist a little bit. But then, as promised in 40 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 2: our previous exploration of the nuts and bolts, the pearls 41 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 2: and stitches, warp and weft, there you go of knitted coding, 42 00:02:57,919 --> 00:03:00,440 Speaker 2: we are going to present you with a hand full 43 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:04,919 Speaker 2: of real life examples of folks doing this very thing 44 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:08,079 Speaker 2: in the service of various war efforts. So what do 45 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:10,440 Speaker 2: you say, we jump right into it. We got the spies, 46 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:13,359 Speaker 2: you knit it the Big Three, the Big Three. 47 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:16,240 Speaker 1: Yes, And this comes to us again courtesy of our 48 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:28,920 Speaker 1: research associate Maria. So let's start with Molly Rinker. Molly 49 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:31,919 Speaker 1: old Mom Rinker. That's a street name. 50 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:32,400 Speaker 2: Okay. 51 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:35,800 Speaker 1: So this takes place way before World War One and 52 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 1: World War Two. This is what the US calls the 53 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 1: Revolutionary War. Rinker is an innkeeper in Philadelphia and she's 54 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:49,680 Speaker 1: one of those we're all big fans of RPGs and 55 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 1: gaming and stuff, so she's to the powers of the beach. 56 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 1: She's one of those n PCs at the local tavern. 57 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:00,960 Speaker 2: But they usually have some good intel for you, those 58 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 2: bar maids and tavern keepers. Right, Yeah, you got to 59 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 2: run out all the dialogue options. Quick pro tip from handkeepers. 60 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:11,680 Speaker 2: You get what I'm talking. Yeah, we got to run 61 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 2: out all of the dialogue tree options to get to 62 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 2: get the goods. 63 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:22,160 Speaker 1: So, because people were often ignoring women at this time, 64 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 1: Molly Rinker was able to be around people that didn't 65 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:30,880 Speaker 1: really treat her as a person, and she used that 66 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:36,279 Speaker 1: to her advantage. She would gather intel eavesdropping on her 67 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 1: tavern guest, specifically her British tavern guest, and. 68 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:45,520 Speaker 2: Her methods weren't the most sophisticated in terms of the 69 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:49,600 Speaker 2: types of crafty trade craft that we're talking about here, 70 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:54,679 Speaker 2: but it did still involve knitting supplies. She didn't encode messages, however, 71 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:56,919 Speaker 2: inside of her knitting, what she did do was deliver 72 00:04:57,040 --> 00:05:00,120 Speaker 2: messages to George Washington, the General and the cotton An 73 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:06,599 Speaker 2: Army concealed inside balls of yarn. Yeah. So she would 74 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 2: sit outside Reakerwood and she's knitting, and then when she 75 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 2: saw Patriot couriers or Patriot troops pass by American forces, 76 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:22,920 Speaker 2: she would toss out small balls of yarn, just casually, like, well, 77 00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 2: here you go. You guys need yarn, right, you need a. 78 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:29,240 Speaker 1: Lot of stuff in general, which was true, but she 79 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 1: had stuffed these small balls of yarn with wartime secrets 80 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 1: on small scraps of paper. So it's kind of like 81 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:41,560 Speaker 1: how you have a message in a fortune cookie, or 82 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 1: it's kind of like how you have soup in a dumpling. 83 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 2: Right yeah, or you know the new git inside of 84 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:53,360 Speaker 2: the delicious sweet retreat, right. And her efforts were and 85 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 2: are considered to have been absolutely as you like to say, 86 00:05:56,880 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 2: Ben mission critical during these seventeen seventy seven to seventeen 87 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:02,200 Speaker 2: seventy eight Philadelphia campaign. 88 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 1: Beautiful, thank you, Rinker. There are a lot of American 89 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:10,919 Speaker 1: heroes who don't get the credit they are due. So 90 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:12,239 Speaker 1: you want to shout you out. 91 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:16,560 Speaker 2: And then we also want to travel again in time. 92 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:21,680 Speaker 2: Let's go to what he say? May nineteen forty four. Oh, 93 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:26,000 Speaker 2: why the heck not? We're talking about Phyllis Pippolatour Doyle, 94 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:30,359 Speaker 2: a twenty three year old South African born British secret 95 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:35,360 Speaker 2: agent who parachuted into Nazi occupied Normandy in May of 96 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:38,880 Speaker 2: nineteen forty four. So hard, unbelievable, it's so. 97 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:42,040 Speaker 1: Cool, and she was not alone, right and all. She's 98 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:47,800 Speaker 1: one of thirty nine female secret agents who served in 99 00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:52,279 Speaker 1: one of the coolest secret armies of the entirety of 100 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:57,040 Speaker 1: World War Two. Forget oss, folks, if you haven't heard 101 00:06:57,040 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 1: about it before, we are so thrilled to introduce you 102 00:06:59,880 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 1: to Winston Churchill's secret army, something called the Special Operations Executive. 103 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:10,480 Speaker 2: The more innocuous the name, the more sinister the plot. 104 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:14,560 Speaker 2: In France right during World War Two, she posed as 105 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 2: a young woman with the cover name of Genevieve and 106 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:21,760 Speaker 2: she was actually assigned to the SOE Scientist Circuit where 107 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 2: she was able to gather intelligence to help the RAF 108 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:29,480 Speaker 2: bombing missions, that's the Royal Air Force. She transmitted one 109 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 2: hundred and thirty five coded messages Morse coded messages to 110 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:38,600 Speaker 2: be precise to Allied forces with her handy dandy wireless 111 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:42,480 Speaker 2: radio and of course her hairtyme. How's that work? Ben? 112 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:43,760 Speaker 3: Right? 113 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:44,240 Speaker 2: Yeah? 114 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:48,320 Speaker 1: Do you morse code in the hairtie? She embeds these 115 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:52,280 Speaker 1: messages in the lace of her hair tie and get this, folks. 116 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:58,239 Speaker 1: She lives. Latour lives until two thousand and twenty three, 117 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:03,000 Speaker 1: and she will talk about her war efforts. She was 118 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:06,960 Speaker 1: speaking to New Zealand Army News about how she concealed 119 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:11,520 Speaker 1: her codes. She said, quote, I always carried knitting because 120 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 1: my codes were on a piece of silk. I wrapped 121 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 1: the piece of silk around a knitting needle and put 122 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:20,440 Speaker 1: it in a flat shoelace that I used to tie 123 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:21,480 Speaker 1: up my hair. 124 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 2: Tricky, tricky. Sending coded messages took her around thirty minutes 125 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:31,239 Speaker 2: from her wireless radio, and it took the Germans ninety 126 00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:34,959 Speaker 2: minutes to get a bead on where she actually was 127 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:38,880 Speaker 2: to trace the location of the signal that it was 128 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 2: sent from. So the odds are certainly in her favor 129 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:45,080 Speaker 2: to make a clean getaway by the time the Germans 130 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:46,959 Speaker 2: knew what was up, yeah. 131 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:50,680 Speaker 1: At least for the first few iterations restaurant, because you 132 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:53,360 Speaker 1: have a window of time in which you need to 133 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:59,040 Speaker 1: move quickly. But the German intelligence community was, you know, 134 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:01,840 Speaker 1: they're not knuckle heads. They're not good people, but they're 135 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:06,479 Speaker 1: not knuckleheads, and they they start to clock the unusual 136 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 1: activities of this person, so they interrogator, they detain her, 137 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:15,840 Speaker 1: and at least one time they strip searcher, but she 138 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:21,240 Speaker 1: always was able to slip the noose. She continually avoided 139 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:26,440 Speaker 1: detection because they would have to have looked in depth 140 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:30,200 Speaker 1: at the lace of her hairtie to figure out any 141 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:34,600 Speaker 1: coded information, and they just didn't because again, not to 142 00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:38,080 Speaker 1: sound too soapboxy, they did not take women seriously. 143 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:40,320 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, and it was just it was literally a 144 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 2: needle in a haystack, at least a needle and a 145 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:46,600 Speaker 2: hairtie kind of situation. And until they had gotten wind 146 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:49,960 Speaker 2: of this type of covert activity, they wouldn't have even 147 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:51,959 Speaker 2: thought to have looked in something like that. But you're 148 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:55,959 Speaker 2: absolutely right, Ben. There was a lot of dismissal involved 149 00:09:56,040 --> 00:10:00,200 Speaker 2: as well. She never talked about her work much, if 150 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 2: at all, and her own family never knew until very 151 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:08,120 Speaker 2: late in her life. She passed away in twenty twenty 152 00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 2: three at the age of one hundred and two years old, 153 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:19,079 Speaker 2: and it kept a lag a low until it became 154 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:22,600 Speaker 2: like a deathbed confession your real one, Tovo. 155 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:33,120 Speaker 1: We've got another person we want to introduce. We tease 156 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:36,079 Speaker 1: this a little bit in the first part of this series, 157 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 1: Elizabeth Bentley. 158 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:44,400 Speaker 2: Elizabeth Bentley cooked up a plot to steal a lector 159 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:48,960 Speaker 2: cryptographic device from the Soviets and then sell it back 160 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:52,440 Speaker 2: to them. That's actually the plot of From Russia with Love. Sorry, 161 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:54,200 Speaker 2: I had to, I had to drop that one in there. 162 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 2: A good one, Maria, but her actual story makes that 163 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:02,200 Speaker 2: kind of mix up a whole lot of sense, mixing 164 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:06,000 Speaker 2: up her plot with the plot of a Russian spy thriller. 165 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:11,439 Speaker 2: Elizabeth Bentley was born in Connecticut. She went to Vassar 166 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:16,400 Speaker 2: and Columbia. No slouch academically speaking, and she was in 167 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:21,200 Speaker 2: fact an American communist m M yeah. Since in a twist, 168 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:25,600 Speaker 2: coming Ben card carrying yeah, she was known as the 169 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:28,560 Speaker 2: Red Spy Queen, and we're getting a lot of this 170 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:33,040 Speaker 2: from the official CIA website CIA dot gov. Check out 171 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:37,239 Speaker 2: Red Spy Queen, a biography of Elizabeth Bentley by Catherine 172 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:41,959 Speaker 2: s Olmsted. Coming to us out of University of North Carolina. 173 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:49,000 Speaker 2: So she considered herself more of and this is a 174 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:55,680 Speaker 2: quote a communist June Cleaver. So for seven years she 175 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:59,520 Speaker 2: worked as what we call a contact woman, which meant 176 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:04,719 Speaker 2: she gothered covert information, primarily Washington, DC, and then she 177 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:09,800 Speaker 2: would pass it along to her Soviet handler. That's correct, folks, 178 00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:14,440 Speaker 2: this is an American, as you said, highly born in 179 00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:19,640 Speaker 2: our socio economic pyramid. She was an American who spied 180 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:22,640 Speaker 2: for the other side, kind of like the Cambridge five, 181 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:26,000 Speaker 2: Say it ain't so, Lizzie, say it ain't so. Yeah. 182 00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:29,120 Speaker 2: This is a thing that I think a lot of 183 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:34,080 Speaker 2: people miss when we're talking about the basics of tradecraft. 184 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:41,439 Speaker 2: It's not necessarily the shadowy guy in a nice suit 185 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:44,640 Speaker 2: that you have to be worried about. Right in a 186 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:48,280 Speaker 2: foreign hotel, It's going to be the people who are 187 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:53,240 Speaker 2: admin the people who are in housekeeping, the bartender, the 188 00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:56,599 Speaker 2: bartender of people, the concierge. They're hearing all the d 189 00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:00,199 Speaker 2: I met a few of them, Yeah, the people who 190 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:04,400 Speaker 2: surprisingly seemed to know four languages, You know what I mean. 191 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 1: I've met a few. They're cool people. Just stay on 192 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:11,240 Speaker 1: their good side and be honest with yourself about why 193 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:15,959 Speaker 1: they're talking to you. All right, Okay, so here's another twist, 194 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:17,599 Speaker 1: like you were kind of teasing. 195 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:20,600 Speaker 2: There and all. A second twist, A second twist, almost 196 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:24,160 Speaker 2: as though we're making a not in fabric. The communist 197 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:30,079 Speaker 2: June Cleaver, as she styled herself, her activities, her early 198 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:35,000 Speaker 2: activities end in nineteen forty five, she goes to Uncle 199 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 2: Sam and she outs herself to the FBI as fact. Yeah, 200 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:41,079 Speaker 2: and they they. 201 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:45,280 Speaker 1: Do what any smart intel agency will do. They say, Okay, 202 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 1: we'll just work for us. We're not the double cross. Yeah, 203 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:52,320 Speaker 1: the double cross. Heck, yeah, she turned double agent. And 204 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:55,400 Speaker 1: she said that she did this because she had become 205 00:13:55,440 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 1: disillusioned by the party. As we know we often talk about, 206 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:02,199 Speaker 1: especially on our sister show stuff. 207 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:05,319 Speaker 2: They don't want you to know. Communism seems great on paper, 208 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:10,600 Speaker 2: but the inherent corruptibility of human beings tends to not 209 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:14,479 Speaker 2: make it work out so great in practice. Yeah. 210 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:18,920 Speaker 1: The issue with communism as a theory is like you said, 211 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:23,440 Speaker 1: communism in practice is something that maybe the human brain 212 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 1: in society hasn't evolved for yet, you know. But there's 213 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 1: there's another factor here. Our character Bentley feels the walls 214 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 1: closing in like she's Han Solo and Star Wars. She 215 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:43,880 Speaker 1: thinks the FBI is hot on her heels. She's just 216 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:48,160 Speaker 1: being paranoid. History will prove later she is not actually 217 00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:52,080 Speaker 1: on the FBI's radar. She was incorrect in that assumption. 218 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:54,560 Speaker 1: But it's a very scary time and it's also very 219 00:14:54,680 --> 00:15:00,200 Speaker 1: frightening and anxiety inducing to have to function as a spy. 220 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:08,800 Speaker 1: And then a third factor, Look, folks, not the soapbox here, 221 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 1: but tradecraft is pretty brutal, and you are only you 222 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:20,480 Speaker 1: as an individual, are only worth the actions you can 223 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 1: do in any kind of arrangement. As soon as you're 224 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:28,800 Speaker 1: done with those actions, as soon as your value is 225 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:34,600 Speaker 1: no longer relevant. 226 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:33,560 Speaker 2: They might kill you. 227 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:36,640 Speaker 1: She was worried that the Soviets would kill her because 228 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:41,480 Speaker 1: she had exhausted whatever her value was, and it turned 229 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:45,000 Speaker 1: out that bit of paranoia was true, so her going 230 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 1: to the FBI may have been less of an altruistic 231 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:55,720 Speaker 1: crossroads moment for her it may have been something much 232 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:57,280 Speaker 1: more like self preservation. 233 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:02,280 Speaker 2: It's a good point, I mean, is it's a good 234 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:05,640 Speaker 2: story to you know, frame it in terms of she 235 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:08,320 Speaker 2: saw the lights or what have you. That, as we 236 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 2: all know, in these types of situations, when you start 237 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 2: thinking that maybe the walls are closing in, sometimes making 238 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 2: a deal is the best move that you have. 239 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:20,240 Speaker 1: And so it comes to pass in the United States 240 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:26,440 Speaker 1: that Bentley the communist June Cleaver testifies in numerous very 241 00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 1: high profile investigations that Uncle Sam is conducting. This is 242 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:39,840 Speaker 1: also you know, shadows of the Red Scare, right, She's 243 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 1: testified in communist influence investigations. She is a huge part 244 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:49,080 Speaker 1: in kicking off the second Red Scare. This is when, 245 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:52,920 Speaker 1: as we all recall, you could have your life and 246 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:56,440 Speaker 1: your career ruined because you went to the wrong meeting one. 247 00:16:56,320 --> 00:17:00,600 Speaker 2: Time or Carthyism right, or you knew the wrong person. Yeah, 248 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:02,560 Speaker 2: you get pulled up in front of the House an 249 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:06,720 Speaker 2: Americans Committee and didn't get blacklisted from Hollywood. A lot 250 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:10,119 Speaker 2: of writers got thrown under the bus for previous membership 251 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:14,119 Speaker 2: in the US version of the Communist Party. It was 252 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:17,120 Speaker 2: it was not good. It was very much a witch hunt. 253 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 1: Oh, very much so. And the House on American Volcanic Ready, yeah, 254 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:25,680 Speaker 1: the House on American Activities Committee. I love that you're 255 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 1: mentioning that. A lot of people don't know that they 256 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:32,560 Speaker 1: started in nineteen thirty eight, but they continued all the 257 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:35,200 Speaker 1: way up until nineteen seventy five. 258 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:39,560 Speaker 2: Wow. I know they kind of went a little more underground, right, 259 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 2: But they were weren't they keeping tabs on like John 260 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 2: Lennon and stuff as well? 261 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:47,200 Speaker 1: Sure, everybody, Arthur Miller, anybody they could touch, so in these. 262 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 2: But they weren't calling people publicly in front of their committee. 263 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:53,639 Speaker 2: They were just sort of operating a little more in 264 00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 2: the shadows. After that period, Yeah, they wouldn't. 265 00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 1: They wouldn't really pull people out into the public eye 266 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:04,600 Speaker 1: unless they felt they had some kind of evidence. In 267 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 1: Bentley's testimony, often would consist of them saying, Hey, do 268 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:13,640 Speaker 1: you know this person in your work as a spy? 269 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:16,760 Speaker 1: Did you ever contact this person? Did you ever hear 270 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:19,920 Speaker 1: this code name or whatever? And I'm sure it got 271 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:23,000 Speaker 1: ridiculous at some point and they said, you know, have 272 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:28,800 Speaker 1: you ever interacted with the insert famous Hollywood screenwriter here 273 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:30,200 Speaker 1: or something like that. 274 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:32,880 Speaker 2: And know what was it? Dalton Trumbo was a big 275 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:37,160 Speaker 2: one that got railroaded. And lest we cast her in 276 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:39,320 Speaker 2: some kind of like, you know, again, we've already sort 277 00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:41,879 Speaker 2: of couched it. This may well not have been some 278 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:45,800 Speaker 2: sort of moral about face, but less we cast her 279 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:48,040 Speaker 2: as some sort of you know, hero coming back and 280 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:52,320 Speaker 2: working for Uncle Sam. A lot of her testimony resulted 281 00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:57,520 Speaker 2: in some people being very unfairly targeted and railroaded themselves 282 00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:01,160 Speaker 2: as a direct result of her testimony. Oh yeah, man, 283 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 2: one hundred percent. Her counter espionage was responsible for the 284 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:14,199 Speaker 2: conviction of party leaders eleven real life proven Communist Party leaders. 285 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:18,520 Speaker 2: But to your point, her testimonies also lit a match 286 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:23,280 Speaker 2: under that growing America paranoia of the Cold War. You know, 287 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:28,480 Speaker 2: who isn't a communist? Yeah, name names, report on your neighbors. 288 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:31,119 Speaker 2: It's very much like a similar situation with what was 289 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:33,639 Speaker 2: going on during the Cold War in Berlin. You know 290 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:36,280 Speaker 2: that was depicted in the film The Lives of Others, 291 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:39,200 Speaker 2: where you know, kids were even like reporting on their 292 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:42,680 Speaker 2: parents and all kinds of stuff like that, really really dirty, 293 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:48,360 Speaker 2: unclean stuff. As you would say, Ben, we're talking classified 294 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 2: documents that she got her hands on, pieces of microfilm. 295 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:56,440 Speaker 2: She delivered information to the Soviets about Allied force plans 296 00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 2: regarding the invasion of Normandy. And she kept a lot 297 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:02,560 Speaker 2: of this stuff hidden in her knitting bag, which no 298 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:06,320 Speaker 2: one ever thought to dig through for information about what 299 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:08,920 Speaker 2: the B twenty nine bomber was going to be doing, 300 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:13,320 Speaker 2: but they really should have because that was definitely in there. Yeah, 301 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:14,800 Speaker 2: she kind of got that far. 302 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:19,160 Speaker 1: Yes, specifically, she got the antela the B twenty nine. 303 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:27,200 Speaker 2: And when she testifies, she becomes a celebrity. For a time, 304 00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:31,840 Speaker 2: She's all over the headlines. She is a. 305 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:36,640 Speaker 1: Legit, actual facts, public figure, as our friend Lauren would say. 306 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:42,080 Speaker 1: But as the years wend on and the news cycle 307 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:48,840 Speaker 1: and public attention shifts, her story falls into obscurity. Knitting 308 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:55,160 Speaker 1: espionage was so effective that multiple countries, including the United 309 00:20:55,200 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 1: States Office of Censorship, restricted the international of knitting patterns. 310 00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:05,680 Speaker 1: They did this in nineteen forty two. Because let's say 311 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:10,120 Speaker 1: you have correspondence right with a friend in Vienna who 312 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:12,320 Speaker 1: doesn't have a friend in Vienna, a. 313 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:14,520 Speaker 2: Friend in Vienna as a as a friend of mine. 314 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:17,040 Speaker 1: Doesn't it that it sounds like a weird album name. 315 00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 1: What band would have an album called a Friend in Vienna? 316 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:22,639 Speaker 1: Would it be Mountain goats, Billy Joe Joel. 317 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:25,480 Speaker 2: He has a song called Vienna Early Billy Joel slaps 318 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 2: by the way, Oh yeah yeah. He was much more 319 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:30,919 Speaker 2: of a Leonard Cohen type figure early days, like really 320 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:35,120 Speaker 2: literate poetic song story type stuff, and Vienna is one 321 00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:44,000 Speaker 2: of my favorites. Then I think we're about to reach 322 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:49,679 Speaker 2: the tangents and trivia part of our story, wherein we 323 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:52,080 Speaker 2: can set the record straight first and first and foremost, 324 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:54,720 Speaker 2: I think we owe this to the ridiculous historians out 325 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:59,040 Speaker 2: there to describe the difference between crocheting and knitting. They 326 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:01,240 Speaker 2: are not the same. They are not the same, and 327 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:03,840 Speaker 2: I know people were yelling at their podcast devices, but 328 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:07,440 Speaker 2: they are in fact distinctly different crafts. Knitting uses two 329 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:11,479 Speaker 2: needles to create much more stretchy and draping fabrics that 330 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:15,479 Speaker 2: might be better used for garments, while crocheting uses a 331 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:19,119 Speaker 2: hook and in order to produce a thicker and sturdier, 332 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:23,040 Speaker 2: a little rougher hewn fabric that might be better for 333 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:27,600 Speaker 2: blankets and the aforementioned little characters, little toys that your 334 00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:33,200 Speaker 2: girlfriend and my kiddo like to craft. Knitting focuses much 335 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:38,120 Speaker 2: more on what's called live stitches, whereas crochet completes each 336 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:44,000 Speaker 2: stitch individually. Yeah. Yeah, and let's go over to Max 337 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:46,720 Speaker 2: as well, because Max, you wanted to clear the record 338 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:52,240 Speaker 2: on not just crochet, but also croquet croquette. Yeah. 339 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:54,439 Speaker 3: I've always had an issue with this one where I'm like, 340 00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:58,840 Speaker 3: what's the difference between croquet, crochet, croquette? What is all 341 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:02,320 Speaker 3: these things? So obviously crochet is what we're talking about today, 342 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 3: which is knitting, which is not to be confused with 343 00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:08,560 Speaker 3: the sport croquet, which is an out of our game 344 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:11,680 Speaker 3: played on grass where players use malice to hit balls 345 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:14,399 Speaker 3: through a series of hoops, but also not to be 346 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:18,359 Speaker 3: confused with a croquette, which is a small breaded, fried 347 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:20,520 Speaker 3: and delicious. 348 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:23,240 Speaker 2: Which is what is it? Isn't it Cuban in origin? 349 00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:25,760 Speaker 2: It is South American. 350 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:27,320 Speaker 3: Let's see, it's. 351 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:29,600 Speaker 2: A little pastry. It's a little savory pastry. I think 352 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 2: it's everywhere it is. I guess, I guess where I 353 00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:33,560 Speaker 2: typically see it is in. 354 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:35,679 Speaker 3: It's French. 355 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:44,119 Speaker 2: French, but the process of frying food is pretty common, 356 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:46,960 Speaker 2: especially with some bread crumbs. Yeah. No, it's a really 357 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 2: good point. It also is another product of colonialism, where 358 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:55,280 Speaker 2: you will see potato croquettes and other types of croquettes 359 00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:59,760 Speaker 2: very popular in some South American cuisine. I want to say, 360 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:05,440 Speaker 2: what is poppies. That's a Cuban, isn't it poppies the restaurant? Yeah, yes, yes, 361 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:08,280 Speaker 2: that's a place here at Balanta. Yeah. 362 00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:11,400 Speaker 3: And I find all this so interesting and so insightful, 363 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:12,960 Speaker 3: and I will forget it within an hour. 364 00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:16,720 Speaker 1: That's okay, man, We'll have this episode out as long 365 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:21,560 Speaker 1: as society doesn't collapse, and maybe even a little bit after. 366 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:25,879 Speaker 2: And forgive me. The Caribbean and South American version of 367 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:29,080 Speaker 2: that food would typically be pronounced croquetas, but it very 368 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:32,479 Speaker 2: much comes from the same background and from that French 369 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:36,400 Speaker 2: culinary tradition, where you're going to see in Brazil, for example, 370 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:41,959 Speaker 2: yucca and mandioca croquettes, various fillings depending on the region 371 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:44,879 Speaker 2: that you're getting them from, and also differences in preparation. 372 00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:49,720 Speaker 2: But just like we see the incredibly fantastic bond me 373 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:55,680 Speaker 2: sandwich in Vietnamese cuisine, you're going to see that French 374 00:24:55,760 --> 00:25:01,800 Speaker 2: bread influence from the old colonial days of French influence 375 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:02,560 Speaker 2: over that region. 376 00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:07,119 Speaker 1: And we have a proposition for you, folks. I have 377 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:13,400 Speaker 1: something we have to mention Just because knitting is no 378 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:17,280 Speaker 1: longer considered a very successful form of trade craft, like 379 00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:21,200 Speaker 1: enemy forces know what to look for, it doesn't mean 380 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:25,200 Speaker 1: that other innocuous things are not being used to communicate 381 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 1: secret messages. One of the most interesting recent examples comes 382 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:33,520 Speaker 1: from our sister show stuff They Don't Want You To Know? 383 00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:39,959 Speaker 1: Where was truly Nolan, Our pal Matt Frederick learned that 384 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:45,480 Speaker 1: the CIA was communicating secret messages through You'll Love this 385 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:51,000 Speaker 1: facs through purposefully dumb looking Star Wars fan sites. 386 00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:55,080 Speaker 2: Oh god, I love it. It's such. It's another perfect 387 00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:58,439 Speaker 2: example of this kind of stuff, things that are dismissed 388 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:02,480 Speaker 2: and hidden in planes like whoever you know? No one 389 00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:07,720 Speaker 2: ever expects the the GeoCities Star Wars fan sites of old. 390 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 2: But that is exactly what the covert agencies of the 391 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:14,240 Speaker 2: United States government were depending on when they used them 392 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:17,440 Speaker 2: as ways to communicate with their assets in the field. Yeah, 393 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:19,880 Speaker 2: did you ever hear about that with Max? No? 394 00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:21,920 Speaker 3: But I don't spend much time on Star Wars fans 395 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:24,040 Speaker 3: dice because I spent all my time on. 396 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:28,399 Speaker 2: I'm kidding, that's not true. I'm gonna get canceled like 397 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:33,280 Speaker 2: Timothy Shallamy being dismissed of opera. Oh that was weird. No, no, no, 398 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 2: much love to the Star Wars fan community out there. 399 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:37,920 Speaker 2: I guess the point, though, Ben, is that there were 400 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:40,720 Speaker 2: just a lot of them because it is so popular, 401 00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:43,879 Speaker 2: and the lights we're talking about were like the bad ones, 402 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:46,000 Speaker 2: the low quality ones. You know. 403 00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:48,679 Speaker 1: That's yeah, that's how they split it in so that 404 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:52,879 Speaker 1: that is the thing. History repeats itself quite often. So 405 00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:57,919 Speaker 1: if just because knitting is no longer you know, a 406 00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:04,120 Speaker 1: gold standard way of secretly communicating intelligence, that doesn't mean 407 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:08,960 Speaker 1: that other things like that don't exist. Crappy, purposely crappy 408 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:14,440 Speaker 1: websites are I would propose a version of this same tactic. 409 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:17,600 Speaker 1: And you know what got me here, maybe we can 410 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:20,240 Speaker 1: start to end on this. 411 00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:20,800 Speaker 2: Guys. 412 00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:23,160 Speaker 1: What got me here is we're talking a little bit 413 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:28,480 Speaker 1: off air and when our research associate Maria first pitched 414 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:33,560 Speaker 1: this idea, it reminded me of another way of encoding 415 00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:38,920 Speaker 1: messages through fabric. This is a true story, folks. 416 00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:44,080 Speaker 2: The Incan Empire the key poo. Yeah, the Incan Empire. 417 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:49,000 Speaker 1: Had a coding system that we still don't understand that 418 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:52,200 Speaker 1: was entirely based upon notts. 419 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:54,439 Speaker 2: And shout out to our colleagues over it stuff to 420 00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:58,120 Speaker 2: blow your mind. Robert and Joe who have done an 421 00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:02,240 Speaker 2: extensive deep dive into the Keipoo on their podcast, Stuff 422 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:04,760 Speaker 2: to Blow your Mind, So do check them out as well. 423 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:11,400 Speaker 2: That's right, Ben, pictograms that they encoded using knotted string devices. 424 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:15,879 Speaker 1: Yeah, so they were able to communicate similar to what 425 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:18,959 Speaker 1: you were saying in part one of this series. They 426 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:24,159 Speaker 1: were able to communicate pretty complex mathematical information that we 427 00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:28,119 Speaker 1: can prove, uh through through these knots. They just used 428 00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:33,200 Speaker 1: fleece and cotton and a lot of what modern society 429 00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:35,919 Speaker 1: has figured out about the kipoo is that it was 430 00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:42,200 Speaker 1: administrative stuff, census figures, tax allocation. You twist the strings, 431 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:44,800 Speaker 1: you make the knot, you show the information. 432 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:46,440 Speaker 2: Spreadsheets. 433 00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:49,960 Speaker 1: Yeah you're making yeah, exactly, you're making a fabric spreadsheet 434 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:55,480 Speaker 1: just so, and uh, this is this is bizarre because 435 00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:59,400 Speaker 1: I don't know about you guys, but Fellas to me, 436 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:04,800 Speaker 1: it makes sense that you could do that with knots, 437 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:08,520 Speaker 1: that you could do numerical information with knots, because it's 438 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:10,920 Speaker 1: no different from a spreadsheet or an abacus. 439 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:14,640 Speaker 2: Well, and maybe our boy Alan Turing, if he'd tried 440 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:18,360 Speaker 2: his hand at cracking the key poos, maybe would have 441 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:21,360 Speaker 2: had some success because, as we know, he famously cracked 442 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:25,560 Speaker 2: one of the most impenetrable codes in history, the Enigma, 443 00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:29,120 Speaker 2: and also you know, won the war effort more or 444 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:32,760 Speaker 2: less for the Allies. But to this day we know 445 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:36,280 Speaker 2: some of what was encoded into these keipoos, but we 446 00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:39,760 Speaker 2: have not been able to fully crack that code, and 447 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:44,959 Speaker 2: there are samples remaining today. A third of these devices, 448 00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:48,680 Speaker 2: the so called narrative keypoos, appear to contain encoded non 449 00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:55,280 Speaker 2: numerical narrative information, including names, stories, and even ancient philosophies. 450 00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:59,240 Speaker 2: So if you're into puzzles and word games and things 451 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:04,360 Speaker 2: like that, if kipoos are something that you might dig, absolutely, yeah. 452 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:09,040 Speaker 1: We wanted to mention this because, uh, it's it's still 453 00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:12,040 Speaker 1: a real rumpic abyza, you know, like it's it's still 454 00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:16,240 Speaker 1: a real head scratcher for people who, as you said, 455 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:21,560 Speaker 1: love puzzles. How do you use a series of knots 456 00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:31,520 Speaker 1: to convey philosophy, to convey cultural myths or legend legendary traditions. 457 00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:34,880 Speaker 1: We know you could spell a name right knitting figured 458 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:39,680 Speaker 1: that out for us later, But this happened before what 459 00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:43,640 Speaker 1: we call Morse code. This happened before what we understand 460 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:50,120 Speaker 1: as binary reasoning. So if you can check this out, 461 00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:52,760 Speaker 1: if you can help us solve the mystery of the 462 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:57,920 Speaker 1: over one thousand kipoos that remain unexplained in the modern day, 463 00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:01,680 Speaker 1: that just like we say with the rational numbers, we 464 00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:04,760 Speaker 1: will take you on an all expense paid trip to 465 00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:08,720 Speaker 1: the David Busters of your choice asterisk, please keep it 466 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:10,560 Speaker 1: in the Atlanta metro area. 467 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:13,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, there are maybe three to choose from, and they 468 00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:16,600 Speaker 2: are not all Dave and Busters are created equally, I 469 00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:19,239 Speaker 2: might argue. And you know, we've been talking a lot 470 00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:22,640 Speaker 2: about the kind of interchangeability of this type of coding 471 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:27,600 Speaker 2: with the foundations of modern computing. Unless you think it's 472 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:31,280 Speaker 2: just kind of parallel thinking, not entirely the case ben 473 00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:33,280 Speaker 2: it would appear. And if you want to read a 474 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:35,080 Speaker 2: little further about this, we're going to hit you to 475 00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:39,320 Speaker 2: an article that the Jacquard loom, which is a form 476 00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:43,800 Speaker 2: of industrialized machine knitting, is actually considered a predecessor to 477 00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:49,560 Speaker 2: modern computing, the punch card system, that big old room 478 00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:53,560 Speaker 2: filling machines of the early days of computers. And you 479 00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:57,360 Speaker 2: can check out programming patterns the story of the Karde 480 00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:02,600 Speaker 2: loom Over at Science Industry Music Org dot UK. And 481 00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:06,800 Speaker 2: it makes sense right because it is a form of automation. 482 00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:11,479 Speaker 2: It's a surprising story and perhaps a story for another day. 483 00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:12,320 Speaker 2: I think it is. 484 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:15,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, folks, thank you so much for tuning in, fellow 485 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:20,200 Speaker 1: ridiculous historians. We hope this exploration finds you well and 486 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:23,920 Speaker 1: a mid grand adventure. We also want to thank our 487 00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:30,400 Speaker 1: super producer, Max Croquet, Croquette, Crochet Williams. 488 00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:33,520 Speaker 2: All different things. I do love a good game of croquet. Also, 489 00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:37,040 Speaker 2: Patnk he ever played paatenk but not play. It's very 490 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:40,760 Speaker 2: similar to Bachi ball. I think French equivalent of boci ball, 491 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:41,520 Speaker 2: very similar. 492 00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:43,000 Speaker 3: I thought of a lot of patnks. 493 00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:44,440 Speaker 2: I don't understand. 494 00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:46,840 Speaker 3: Oh, come on, you're the CLBs guy as well. 495 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:49,160 Speaker 2: I thought that that's right. There was a clarps I was. 496 00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:51,840 Speaker 2: I was getting a Clarbscure reference in there. I need 497 00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:53,640 Speaker 2: to jump back into that game. What a what a 498 00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:55,800 Speaker 2: delet canvas? Oh boy? 499 00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:01,840 Speaker 1: Thanks as well to Alex william M, Max's biological brother 500 00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:05,920 Speaker 1: who composed this slap and bop Big Thanks to Rachel 501 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:09,520 Speaker 1: Doctor Big Spinach Lance as well as aj Bahamas Jacob's 502 00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:10,760 Speaker 1: the Puzzler. 503 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:12,400 Speaker 2: And the rude dudes over at Ridiculous Crime. If you 504 00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:16,000 Speaker 2: dig our show, you're gonna dig theirs for sure. And 505 00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:20,640 Speaker 2: thanks again to our research associate, brand new research associate, Maria, 506 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:22,800 Speaker 2: who absolutely knocked out of the park with this one. 507 00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:32,800 Speaker 2: We'll see you next time, folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, 508 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:36,120 Speaker 2: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 509 00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:37,240 Speaker 2: to your favorite shows.