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Speaker 1: So joining me now is somebody I have I always

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Speaker 1: make a priority to read when he has one of

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Speaker 1: his big deep dives in whatever news periodical he's working

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Speaker 1: for at the time. Currently, Dexter Filkins is with The

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Speaker 1: New Yorker these days and has been there for a while.

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Speaker 1: He's probably our country's best sort of war correspondent in

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Speaker 1: the written word these days. Yeah, I was just going

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Speaker 1: to say, I don't think Dexter's going to stop me there,

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Speaker 1: and he you know, you do it in such a

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Speaker 1: way where it is it is both enlightening illuminating, but

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Speaker 1: at the same time it lacks an agenda. And I

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Speaker 1: mean that in a positive way. In our era of

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Speaker 1: journalism where everybody's assuming there's an agenda behind every story,

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Speaker 1: that is not how you work. You work more like

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Speaker 1: an anthropologist, I think, in trying to put the puzzle together,

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Speaker 1: unpack it, and things like that. And it's your most

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Speaker 1: recent piece. Is what sort of drove me to to

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Speaker 1: to get you on the pod? Here is America ready

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Speaker 1: for the next war, which was really powered It seems

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Speaker 1: like by lessons that military planners are learning from Israel

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Speaker 1: and Ukraine at the moment. But Dexter welcome.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much, and thanks for the nice intro.

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Speaker 1: No, please, it's it's well deserved. And I learned a

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Speaker 1: little something extra that you're you got you cut your

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Speaker 1: teeth down in Miami back in the day.

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Speaker 2: I miss Miami, you know.

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Speaker 1: I what I say about Miami and I I love

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Speaker 1: visiting and my daughter's a resident now. It's a great

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Speaker 1: place to be from It's a it's a weird place

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Speaker 1: to live. It's a tough place to live sometimes, but

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Speaker 1: it's a Yes, they keep adding people, and they you know,

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Speaker 1: you can't widen us one the ocean gets the the way,

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Speaker 1: you know, or yeah, yeah, they haven't figured that out,

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Speaker 1: but let's start is you know, it was a pretty

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Speaker 1: provocative headline, is US Is the US ready for the

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Speaker 1: next war? It feels like this is one of those

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Speaker 1: where we're a big military superpower that suddenly is vulnerable

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Speaker 1: to uh, small tech innovation. Is that the Is that

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Speaker 1: the good subhead?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean I think it's everything's changing really fast,

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Speaker 2: and I think it's been changing kind of under the

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Speaker 2: radar for some time. But what's happened in the last

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Speaker 2: couple of years is is Ukraine And that's just that's

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Speaker 2: like a real time laboratory for for for for war,

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Speaker 2: you know, uh, for war as it happens. And so

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Speaker 2: everybody's been studying that war. The Pentagon has been studying

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Speaker 2: that war. It's kind of unfolded in ways that are

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Speaker 2: very very different. And then you have and then you

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Speaker 2: have Israel, which is I think somewhat also under the radar,

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Speaker 2: but they've made extensive use of artificial intelligence in targeting

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Speaker 2: Hamas and Hesbola and Iran and just the most interesting ways.

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Speaker 2: And you know, we can discuss that. There's sort of

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Speaker 2: pros and cons and ups and downs, but those two things,

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Speaker 2: I think kind of drones and unmanned systems, say in

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Speaker 2: Ukraine and artificial intelligence in Israel is kind of changing

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Speaker 2: everything really fast.

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Speaker 1: How where are we on drone warfare? And on one hand,

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Speaker 1: it was I remember when Barack Obama was accused of

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Speaker 1: over using drones and over relying on drones, and it

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Speaker 1: looked like we were ahead of the game. Are we

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Speaker 1: no longer ahead of the game.

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Speaker 2: I think we do okay with with you know, we're

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Speaker 2: I should say we're catching up in kind of drones themselves.

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Speaker 2: But I think I think the really big issue that

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Speaker 2: the Pentagon is grappling with and I think, you know,

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Speaker 2: the smart people are kind of panicking, and that is

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Speaker 2: that the US military has built. What the US military

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Speaker 2: that they've built, it essentially relies on really really expensive

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Speaker 2: weapons that they don't build very many of. So like

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Speaker 2: we have, you know, we have something like eleven aircraft carriers.

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Speaker 2: They cost you know, fifteen billion dollars each, and they

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Speaker 2: take it, they take a decade to make. We have

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Speaker 2: F thirty fives that cost the fighter jets to cost

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Speaker 2: one hundred million dollars each. And you know, just the

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Speaker 2: other day in the in the Arabian Sea, two F

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Speaker 2: thirty five slid off an aircraft carrier and fell into

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Speaker 2: the water, you know, and they and they sank to

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Speaker 2: the bottom and there, you know, there's two hundred million

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Speaker 2: dollars just down the drain. And and so what's happened.

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Speaker 2: That's us. And then what you what you see in

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Speaker 2: Ukraine is and where like I visited this factory in

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Speaker 2: Ukraine which I write about. They can make really really accurate,

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Speaker 2: super lethal drones for five hundred bucks apiece, and they

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Speaker 2: crag them out and crag them out and crack them out.

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Speaker 2: And so if you're suddenly if you're an aircraft carrier

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Speaker 2: that costs ten billion dollars, and what do you do

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Speaker 2: if there's a thousand of those coming your way? And

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Speaker 2: I think that's kind of that's what has gotten everybody's attention.

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Speaker 1: So what's the you know, the infamous military industrial complex, right,

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Speaker 1: which which essentially where defense contractors have successfully convinced members

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Speaker 1: of Congress of how many jobs are created with all

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Speaker 1: of these things, and it becomes all untouchable. But you

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Speaker 1: it also strikes me is that this is why legacy

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Speaker 1: weapons systems stay and never get replaced, and so that

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Speaker 1: it gets layered, right, It's it's a total, it's a layering.

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Speaker 1: I assume that's where we are at the moment, right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So depending on itself is like an aircraft carrier,

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Speaker 2: and so it's you know, sailing steadily in one direction

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Speaker 2: and it's not easy to turn and it's certainly not

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Speaker 2: easy to turn around, which is what they need to do.

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Speaker 2: And and that, I mean, you hit the nail on

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Speaker 2: the head. You can't suddenly wake up one morning and say,

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Speaker 2: you know what, we're not going to build aircraft carriers anymore.

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Speaker 2: That's thousands and thousands of jobs spread, you know, very

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Speaker 2: precisely to factories all around the country, and so all

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Speaker 2: the all the members of Congress wake up and say, no,

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Speaker 2: hang on, hang on, hang out. We got to have

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Speaker 2: that and so and so that's kind of that that's

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Speaker 2: a big part of the problem, which is you've got

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Speaker 2: the you've got some very smart people in the Pentagon,

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Speaker 2: and they're saying, look, we need to change, we need

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Speaker 2: to change really fast.

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Speaker 1: Or do we still have smart people at the Pentagon?

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Speaker 1: Dexter like that, there's a creature.

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Speaker 2: So there are creatures. Many of them are creatures of

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Speaker 2: kind of group think, but but there's a lot there's

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Speaker 2: a lot of right people who realize what's going on,

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Speaker 2: but they can't be heard and that and that's the

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Speaker 2: problem because it gets drowned out by what we're talking about,

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Speaker 2: which is, let's carry on with the status quo. Because

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Speaker 2: the status quo, you know, employees five thousand people in

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Speaker 2: my district and so that's hard to change. And it's

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Speaker 2: and that's kind of like that's exactly what the Pentagon

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Speaker 2: is kind of grappling with in Congress.

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Speaker 1: I feel like you wrote a similar story fifteen years

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Speaker 1: ago about the transition from conventional military to counter terrorism

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Speaker 1: and in some ways that and that we were in

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Speaker 1: a similar place. Then this belief that hey, we're not.

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Speaker 1: We don't have the military. We don't have the military

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Speaker 1: that we need to deal with the threats of today.

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Speaker 1: And it is this has this not been a sort

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Speaker 1: of a twenty five year problem.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good point. I think we did. We

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Speaker 2: woke up, you know, we woke up on September eleventh

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Speaker 2: and said, oh my god, what do we do? Yeah,

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Speaker 2: the military doesn't turn on a dime, it just doesn't,

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Speaker 2: and so and so so we spend you know, the

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Speaker 2: country spends nearly a trillion dollars a year. I mean

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Speaker 2: it's like whatever, eight hundred and fifty billion dollar, which

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Speaker 2: is unbelievable amount of money.

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Speaker 1: Look, there is the reason why this zip code that

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Speaker 1: I live in, Okay, in Arlington County. Yeah, yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: like it's surrounded. I mean I sit here. In the

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Speaker 1: thirty five years that I've lived here, this has become

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Speaker 1: one of the you know, these counties in Northern Virginia

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Speaker 1: become three of the wealthiest counties in America, and they

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Speaker 1: were not that way thirty five years ago. And it's

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Speaker 1: all defense contractors. It is all depends contractors.

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Speaker 2: Yep, and that those are like vested interests. But but

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Speaker 2: that's the irony, which is, we spend so much money

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Speaker 2: and we're not really getting a lot of bang for

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Speaker 2: our bucket anymore. We're really not. And so all these

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Speaker 2: efforts to kind of say, well, we gotta we gotta

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Speaker 2: do something different, it's really hard, even though even though

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Speaker 2: there's like a mountain of cash to draw from, you know,

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Speaker 2: it's it's basically it's all tied up.

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Speaker 1: Is there Is there a little initiatives or is a

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Speaker 1: starting to work?

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, And they're little, they're little, give me little,

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Speaker 2: you know, little relatives of the Pentagon budget is like

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Speaker 2: can actually be pretty big.

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Speaker 1: So it's a ten billion dollar program, right, yeah, And.

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Speaker 2: It's you know, you talk to people to Pentagon, and

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Speaker 2: it's it's hard to you know, it's hard to get

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Speaker 2: to the Pentagon. It's hard to get inside of it.

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Speaker 2: It's hard to find the right people. I mean, it's

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Speaker 2: just such a vast place. But like you talk to

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Speaker 2: them and they they talk about these kind of tiny

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Speaker 2: initiatives and they're you know, they're very kind of rightly

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Speaker 2: proud of them. But like you think, boy, that ain't

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Speaker 2: that much, but they're doing it. There's a thing. There's

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Speaker 2: a thing. For instance, there's a program called the Replicator Initiative,

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Speaker 2: and it's basically the Pentagon making drones, you know, the

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Speaker 2: Pentagon making cheap accurate Do.

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Speaker 1: We have factories that make drones in this country.

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Speaker 2: Yes, we do, not not enough. They're like the company

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Speaker 2: that I wrote about, which is called androill Uh and

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Speaker 2: they're they're a very interesting company run by the one

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Speaker 2: by this very interesting kind of mad scientists. They're building.

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Speaker 2: They're building a big factory outside of Columbus, Ohio, for instance.

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Speaker 2: So and I because I think one of the things

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Speaker 2: that one of the things that's also become clear is

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Speaker 2: that our defense industrial base, you know, along with the

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Speaker 2: rest of our industrial base, but particularly with defense, it's

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Speaker 2: just been thinned out. There's not that much there. Like

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Speaker 2: there's a I mentioned this way down in the story,

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Speaker 2: and it's a long story, so everybody will be forgiven

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Speaker 2: for not making it to the end. But there's a

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Speaker 2: company called Govini, and Govini is a software company, and

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Speaker 2: the Pentagon came to them and they said, look, find

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Speaker 2: out trace all of our supply lines for all of

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Speaker 2: our weapons systems and tell us come back and tell

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Speaker 2: us where they came from. Fifty thousand supply lines go

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Speaker 2: to China for and everything from you know, B one bombers,

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Speaker 2: B two bombers, F thirty fives, microchip everything. Fifty thousand

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Speaker 2: supply chains go to China for our weapons. And so

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Speaker 2: we just don't make this stuff here, you know, we

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Speaker 2: still't make it. And so again, like like these conversations

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Speaker 2: are happening, but you know, like change is very slow,

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Speaker 2: but everybody's kind of there is a kind of collective

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Speaker 2: awakening like, oh my god, this.

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Speaker 1: Is the leverage China has over this in these trade disputes.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god. It's like all you have to do

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Speaker 2: is turn it off, you know, which they would do,

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Speaker 2: of course, I mean, of course they would turn it off. So, yeah,

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Speaker 2: we're in a lot of trouble.

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Speaker 1: Obviously, there's been rhetoric that we're trying to reverse this.

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Speaker 1: Have you seen much evidence yet, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: There's some, there's some. It's just again it's like, I mean,

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Speaker 2: you know this as a denizen of Washington, but change

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Speaker 2: comes very slowly, and particularly to a bureaucracy the size

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Speaker 2: of the Pentagon. You know, you know, the famous story

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Speaker 2: of the Pentagon is you know, like the did you

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Speaker 2: hear the one about the kid that went in as

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Speaker 2: a private you know, when he got lost in the

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Speaker 2: Pentagon he emerged like ten years later as like a

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Speaker 2: bird colonel, you know. But it's like and it's true,

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Speaker 2: but it's like that is kind of it's a good

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Speaker 2: metaphor because the place is so gigantic and unwieldly it's

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Speaker 2: hard to tell what goes on inside. You can't get

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Speaker 2: your arms around it, and it doesn't move, you know that,

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Speaker 2: And that's kind of that's basically what everybody's waken up

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Speaker 2: to right now. And I think that you know that

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Speaker 2: the danger is the danger is like we don't move

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Speaker 2: fast enough, you know, and and something bad happens, you know,

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Speaker 2: something bad, like you know Taiwan, say.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's tuck Taiwan. Because you referenced a war game,

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Speaker 1: I actually held a war game. I convened one on

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Speaker 1: China and Taiwan about three years ago as a as

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Speaker 1: a little streaming special report that we did Who won?

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Speaker 1: Who wins every Time? Right? China? You know it was

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Speaker 1: they even used a nuclear weapon sort of they didn't

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Speaker 1: launch it anywhere, but they exploded one just to show

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Speaker 1: that they could off the coast of the Pacific well

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Speaker 1: in this war game. But what was clear was it's

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Speaker 1: a huge logistics challenge, right to turn Taiwan, to do

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Speaker 1: for Taiwan what we did for Ukraine. You know, we

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Speaker 1: had seventy years of NATO to essentially streamline supply lines

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Speaker 1: and coordination and all of that. There is no Asian NATO,

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Speaker 1: right and you just see that. You know, if this

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Speaker 1: is a hot war in twenty twenty seven, which is

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Speaker 1: what some generals have predicted, is America ready to help

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Speaker 1: Taiwan survive it?

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Speaker 2: We're not ready. We're not ready. I don't know what

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Speaker 2: you know. And you you know, for this, as so

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Speaker 2: many other issues, we have to peer into the mind

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Speaker 2: of Donald Trump and wonder, uh, you know, what would

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Speaker 2: he decide to defend Taiwan or not?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think would be shocked. I look, and I

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Speaker 1: say this, forget Donald Trump, dexter. I always say this.

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Speaker 1: If I put that on a poll question and I

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Speaker 1: asked the American people whether our sons and daughters should

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Speaker 1: be sent to defend this island, you know, I don't

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Speaker 1: think you'd get the majority. I mean it isn't This

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Speaker 1: isn't something that I think America would be signed up for.

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Speaker 1: They'd sign up for a direct war with China, but

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Speaker 1: not not a proxy one.

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Speaker 2: Well, I agree, I agree with you on the on

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Speaker 2: the politics of it. I think I think when you

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Speaker 2: when you start to contemplate, say, a successful Chinese capture

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Speaker 2: of Taiwan, it would be catastrophic for the United States,

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Speaker 2: and and and that takes I mean, I think that's true.

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Speaker 2: And I think if you just start with it's crazy Taiwan,

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Speaker 2: I mean, who knew I didn't know this. Taiwan makes

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Speaker 2: ninety percent of the world's advanced microchips, and so what

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Speaker 2: that means effectively is that, I mean they're all made

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Speaker 2: in one place. They're all made in one factory called

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Speaker 2: TSMC in Taiwan.

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Speaker 1: Talk about another like head scratcher, Why did you do that?

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Speaker 1: Happen for this long? And you know who who gave

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Speaker 1: Taiwan the resources to do this? The United States of America? Right, yeah, yeah, And.

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Speaker 2: It's a you know, it's a it's a super enterprising

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Speaker 2: country and people work incredibly hard, and but like the.

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Speaker 1: Necessity is the mother of invention, right A innovention?

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Speaker 2: Yes, and the and the but the advanced industrial economies,

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Speaker 2: I think it's fair to say would be they would

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Speaker 2: come to a halt. I mean, if not, and if

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Speaker 2: not a halt, they would be severely constricted. If Taiwan,

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Speaker 2: if the micro chips of Taiwan makes suddenly were no

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Speaker 2: longer available, And that's just you can't, like, if you're

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Speaker 2: the president of United States, you have go God, like, what,

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Speaker 2: you know, what are we going to do? And in fact,

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Speaker 2: I remember I was in Taiwan a few years ago

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Speaker 2: and and the joke was, you know, if the Chinese invade,

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Speaker 2: what's the safest place going to be in Taiwan? And

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Speaker 2: they said, well, it's the basement of TSMC.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, nobody's going to on the Chinese can't afford

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Speaker 1: to lose access to that either, right, Yeah, and like,

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Speaker 1: but but.

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Speaker 2: Just to answer your question more fully, I think, you know,

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Speaker 2: I think that if if the Chinese were to capture Taiwan,

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Speaker 2: I mean, their their goal pretty clearly, they've made it

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Speaker 2: very clear, is to basically push the United States out

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Speaker 2: of the Western Pacific.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: Uh, that's Japan, that's the Philippines. Those are our friends

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Speaker 2: and allies and fellow democracies and so and.

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Speaker 1: Hopefully we've seen in a lot of trouble are in

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Speaker 1: there too, right, Yeah, I mean that was the question

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Speaker 1: I remember in this war game with the Assi sign on,

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Speaker 1: with the South Koreans work with the Japanese to do this,

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Speaker 1: like there isn't this isn't like the alliance that the

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Speaker 1: US would need isn't necessarily rock solid yet? Right?

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Speaker 2: No? No, not at all, not at all. And that

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Speaker 2: in fact that I wrote about in the piece there's

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Speaker 2: a little bit I went to a wargame. God, it

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Speaker 2: was like really scary, as was probably the one you did. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: a lot of people died, They got out of control

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Speaker 2: very very quickly. But one of those one of those

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Speaker 2: questions was like what are the Japanese going to do?

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Speaker 2: Are they going to jump in on our side?

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Speaker 1: You know?

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Speaker 2: What's the Philippines going to do? What are the Chinese

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Speaker 2: going to do? Are the Chinese gonna Are they going

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Speaker 2: to strike the American mainland? Which they can do? They

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Speaker 2: didn't in this in this war game. They did not.

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Speaker 1: Did they get I'm curious in your wargame, did the

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Speaker 1: North Koreans get involved?

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Speaker 2: No? No, But that was.

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Speaker 1: Another fear in our war game that the Chinese.

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Speaker 2: Interesting that the guy who's running the war game this

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Speaker 2: is at the think tank Center for Strategic International Studies,

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Speaker 2: he said, okay, no no nuclear weapons today. No, so.

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Speaker 1: Okay then, but they do.

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Speaker 2: Like I know, they just ran one with nukes available

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Speaker 2: if you wanted to use them. But as it happened

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Speaker 2: the wargame that that I went to, and it it

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Speaker 2: didn't start with an invasion of Taiwan. It started started

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Speaker 2: very slowly. It was a blockade. It was a Chinese blockade.

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Speaker 2: Some American planes got shot down. Well I mean the

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Speaker 2: they blockaded and then blockaded Taiwan. But then once the

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Speaker 2: shooting started, it just took off, you know, it just

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Speaker 2: took off. And so you know, we were striking China

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Speaker 2: and they they didn't strike the mainland, but but they

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Speaker 2: they destroyed like a quarter of the American air force. Uh,

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Speaker 2: thousands of people died on each side, you know. According

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Speaker 2: to this, I thought, pretty pretty realistic wargame. We stopped

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Speaker 2: the war game after like four go rounds. Like it

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Speaker 2: was ugly, ugly, you know, hideous, not something you want

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Speaker 2: to ever happen in real life.

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Speaker 1: Another fear factor that I've heard about that that that

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Speaker 1: we haven't brought up yet is low orbit space and satellites,

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Speaker 1: and that are we that that would be among the

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Speaker 1: first things China might do and whether you know which

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Speaker 1: is the impetus of the space force. You know, people

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Speaker 1: laughed at it at the time, but this is a

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Speaker 1: serious issue, security in low orbit space and and and

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Speaker 1: our satellites. I know this was a big concern about

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Speaker 1: five or six years ago. Have things gotten better? Do

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Speaker 1: we feel more confident that we could have security and

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Speaker 1: superiority in low orbit?

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Speaker 2: Nobody, nobody could answer that question for me, and I

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Speaker 2: think everybody's really nervous about that. But would I mean,

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Speaker 2: I think it's a it's a huge issue because when

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Speaker 2: you think about it, let's say the worst starts and

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Speaker 2: suddenly either you know, either we shoot down their satellites

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Speaker 2: or they shoot down ours. You know, the lights go

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Speaker 2: out right like you're done, you know.

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Speaker 1: But it's like, we're so reliant on these lowerbit satellites

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Speaker 1: now we haven't fully realized that. Yeah, we used to

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Speaker 1: keep the lights on without satellites, but that isn't how

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Speaker 1: it works anymore.

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Speaker 2: No, Like we would be dead in the water, as

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Speaker 2: would they. And so in a way, it's kind of

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Speaker 2: mutual assured destruction. In fact, the one answer I did

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Speaker 2: get from a couple of people was nobody wants to

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Speaker 2: go there because if you if you ended up shooting

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Speaker 2: a lot of satellites, low orbit satellites, it would make

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Speaker 2: essentially it would make a band around the Earth kind

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Speaker 2: of uninhabitable to other satellites for years and years and years.

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Speaker 2: And no, and nobody wants to go.

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Speaker 1: The entire planet goes into the dark ages.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's like, yeah, yeah, I mean, it's

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Speaker 2: like a science fiction movie. But but I think the

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Speaker 2: short answer is everybody's trying to figure that out, you know, militarily,

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Speaker 2: like how do we destroy their satellites? But they're doing

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Speaker 2: the same to us, And so I think everybody's trying

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Speaker 2: to be like kind of you know, reasonable about it.

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Speaker 1: What do we think the Chinese have learned from the

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Speaker 1: Ukraine War? Right, we're learning something from the Ukrainians. One

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Speaker 1: would assume, you know, they've never tested their military.

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Speaker 2: That's right. I mean, I think they have that tiny

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Speaker 2: little war with nasty little war Vietnam that lasted a

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Speaker 2: couple of months, you know, like in the seventies. But

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Speaker 2: they're watching the war. Yeah, well, I think I think

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Speaker 2: that's pretty clear that the Chinese are watching the war

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Speaker 2: in Ukraine, but they're they're watching us, you know, they

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Speaker 2: want to see what we do. And I think I

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Speaker 2: think what I mean by that is, you know, are

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Speaker 2: the Americans is going to tough it out here or

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Speaker 2: are they going to are they going to get bored

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Speaker 2: and give up and go home?

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Speaker 1: And the signal that hey, go grab Taiwan, you might

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Speaker 1: be able to get it without firing.

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Speaker 2: A shot exactly. And so so there's one of the

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Speaker 2: debates that's going on inside the White House. I mean,

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Speaker 2: it's like happening as we speak.

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Speaker 1: And I say that, and it's funny. I'm glad you

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Speaker 1: put up. Look, there's a lot of debates that don't

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Speaker 1: happen that should happen in this White House. On this

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Speaker 1: there's a real debate because there actually are multiple factions,

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Speaker 1: right Rubios and Rubio does have his ear to an extent,

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Speaker 1: and then you have the Vance Wing and some of

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Speaker 1: these other isolations that are in a different spot. And

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Speaker 1: it's a real debate.

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Speaker 2: That exactly right it is. It's a real debate and

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Speaker 2: you can see like one day one side wins in

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Speaker 2: the the other one.

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Speaker 1: No, I mean you see it in Trump's tweets sometimes. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And like I think here.

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Speaker 2: I think that you know, you have the one faction,

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Speaker 2: what's called the Vance faction, who cares about Ukraine. Forget

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Speaker 2: about Ukraine. There's the number three guy at the Pentagon Bridge, Colby,

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Speaker 2: under Secretary for Policy. You know, he would say if

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Speaker 2: he were on your show, he'd say, we have to

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Speaker 2: get ready for China, like everything for China. So like Ukraine,

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Speaker 2: the Europeans have to worry about that. We got to

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Speaker 2: get we got to get ready. I think the problem

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Speaker 2: with that argument, which you know, I'd like to hear

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Speaker 2: him talk, But the problem with that argument is that

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Speaker 2: the Chinese are watching very very closely, and I think

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Speaker 2: they're watching our resolve as much as they are our capabilities.

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Speaker 2: And so if we abandon an ally in the middle

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Speaker 2: of Europe, what does that say about our resolve to say,

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Speaker 2: support our friends in the Pacific? You know, and I

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Speaker 2: think that the Chinese are taking notes for sure.

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Speaker 1: I assume that Japanese are taken note as well. Yes, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know, and you know they're obviously investing

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Speaker 1: in military, doing more investments than they ever had before.

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Speaker 1: It seems almost as a way of trying to preserve

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Speaker 1: the relationship with US.

432
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:06,240
Speaker 2: Yes, though there you know, there's it's a big question

433
00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:09,480
Speaker 2: if if the usn't go and China go to war

434
00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:13,800
Speaker 2: over Taiwan, what does Japan do. They're not obligated to

435
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:17,080
Speaker 2: jump in. I think I think the chances are pretty

436
00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:21,440
Speaker 2: great that they would because if only because there's these

437
00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:26,520
Speaker 2: giant American bases in Japan, you know, Air Force, Navy, everything, Yakuska,

438
00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:30,600
Speaker 2: and certainly I think almost certainly in a war with

439
00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:33,840
Speaker 2: the United States, the Chinese would attack those bases. That's

440
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:37,840
Speaker 2: Japanese soil. So I think the odds are pretty strong

441
00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:39,879
Speaker 2: that the Japanese would get in. But and that's the

442
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:42,760
Speaker 2: that's the thing that's so scary like about these war

443
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:45,800
Speaker 2: games is like it goes from being this like nothing

444
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:50,639
Speaker 2: thing in the straits of Taiwan and it's like it

445
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:53,480
Speaker 2: within like forty eight hours, you're in World War three.

446
00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:55,560
Speaker 2: You know, it just escalates so quickly.

447
00:24:56,200 --> 00:25:01,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's go to Israel, uh and their use of

448
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:04,479
Speaker 1: artificial intelligence, which you know, when I was reading about it,

449
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:07,479
Speaker 1: you know, there was a there's you're just sitting there

450
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:11,119
Speaker 1: going there's a there's a part of me that just

451
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:15,560
Speaker 1: is scared and nervous that a computer is deciding who

452
00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:19,320
Speaker 1: to kill. Right, You're just sitting there going and once

453
00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:22,040
Speaker 1: a computer decides, there's no human to stop it if

454
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:25,439
Speaker 1: it turns out you had bad intel, right, I mean,

455
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:29,800
Speaker 1: you know AI AI is. You know, it's a probability model,

456
00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:33,600
Speaker 1: and I get that, but not everybody understands that, and

457
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:38,600
Speaker 1: they you know, there is this almost you know, the

458
00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:41,000
Speaker 1: fear I have is there's almost like this belief in

459
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:44,679
Speaker 1: a super capability of AI that you they're never wrong.

460
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:49,159
Speaker 1: And it's like okay, and it does feel like, you know,

461
00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:52,399
Speaker 1: the Israelis are relying on it. Now, is it really

462
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:53,200
Speaker 1: this reliable?

463
00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:57,359
Speaker 2: Well, I mean I think the short answers it's not

464
00:25:57,480 --> 00:25:59,399
Speaker 2: always reliable. I mean, I think we can see the

465
00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:04,840
Speaker 2: evidence on the ground. But I think what's so interesting

466
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:07,879
Speaker 2: about the Israelis you're doing? And I'll just sort of

467
00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:11,359
Speaker 2: walk you through as it was explained to me before

468
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:15,600
Speaker 2: every war that Israel has had with Gaza, with Hasbola,

469
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:17,639
Speaker 2: they have a target list. You know, they have like

470
00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:21,359
Speaker 2: two thousand names and like and their name, their names,

471
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:24,160
Speaker 2: they're people. There's a file there's a photo like we're

472
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:27,600
Speaker 2: going to kill Abu Ahmed. The moment the balloon goes up,

473
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:30,720
Speaker 2: that guy's dead, we're going after him. There's like two

474
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:34,600
Speaker 2: thousand of those. So what happens in the current war,

475
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:37,560
Speaker 2: the one that started in October twenty twenty three, the

476
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:41,399
Speaker 2: Israeli shot that target list in a couple of days.

477
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,160
Speaker 2: They went after everybody, and they wanted to keep going.

478
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:48,560
Speaker 2: And so this is where AI comes in. So AI

479
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:53,120
Speaker 2: is essentially identifying people who they don't know, like who

480
00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:55,960
Speaker 2: is that guy in the ground, And so what AI

481
00:26:56,080 --> 00:27:02,040
Speaker 2: does gathers like everything drone footage, social media posts, uh,

482
00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:06,280
Speaker 2: telephone records, property records, and so it says, we don't

483
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:08,600
Speaker 2: know who that guy is, but he's going into a

484
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:12,480
Speaker 2: house that like Hamas uses, his brother's in jamas and

485
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:14,479
Speaker 2: yesterday morning he was on the phone with another guy

486
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:18,880
Speaker 2: who's in Amas. So so the AI machine spits out

487
00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:23,760
Speaker 2: this target and it's basically a coordinate hit this and that,

488
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:26,720
Speaker 2: and so the Israelis will say, you know, they'll pound

489
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:28,680
Speaker 2: the table when they say this. They'll say, like, it's

490
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:32,120
Speaker 2: the computer's not deciding, you know, the human always has

491
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:35,879
Speaker 2: has the decision making power. But it's like yeah, but

492
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:38,240
Speaker 2: if you get the recommendation, like how many times are

493
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:41,440
Speaker 2: they detailing that? Now that again there's Raelis will say,

494
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:44,959
Speaker 2: you know, we only we only hit the target that

495
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:48,320
Speaker 2: AI recommends, you know, one in every five times or

496
00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:50,479
Speaker 2: one in every ten. But still, you know, there's been

497
00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 2: a lot of there's been a lot of mistakes for sure.

498
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 1: What you know, there's been some big announcements that you have,

499
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:04,600
Speaker 1: like Puenteer in particular, is going to be more involved

500
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:07,959
Speaker 1: in the Pentagon. Obviously they've been pretty involved with what

501
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:10,840
Speaker 1: Israel has been doing. What what is it that Palenteer

502
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:11,240
Speaker 1: can do?

503
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:15,240
Speaker 2: Well, now, that's like it's such a great question because

504
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:19,719
Speaker 2: it's so basic, and what Palenteer does is so basic.

505
00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 2: I mean it's super important and it's really difficult, but

506
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:27,199
Speaker 2: it's like really basic all Palenteer does. Somebody describe it

507
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:30,560
Speaker 2: to me as they said, like you know Anderil, you

508
00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:33,239
Speaker 2: know the company that makes drones. They're the front end.

509
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:36,199
Speaker 2: We're the back end. They're they're like the back end

510
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:44,720
Speaker 2: they Pollunteer basically connects computer systems and brings all the

511
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:49,240
Speaker 2: data into one place. And so at a place like

512
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:52,720
Speaker 2: well if if in a place like Washington, where they're

513
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:56,920
Speaker 2: now doing billions of dollars with their contracts, billions they

514
00:28:57,160 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 2: you know, if they go to the Pentagon and the

515
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,880
Speaker 2: think and says, look, we've got the CIA, we have

516
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 2: the National Intelligence Agency, we have UH, the the National

517
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:13,280
Speaker 2: Reconnaissance Agency, we have the Geospatial Satellite Agency, all these

518
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:16,560
Speaker 2: different agencies, all these different satellites, all these different sensors,

519
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:19,520
Speaker 2: and none of them talk to each other. Like they're

520
00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 2: all completely different. So if you're trying to you know,

521
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 2: I hate to go there, but if you're if you're

522
00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:26,920
Speaker 2: trying to run a war in the Pacific, you need

523
00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:28,719
Speaker 2: to do you need to have all of them. And

524
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:32,080
Speaker 2: so literally none of these systems talk to each other.

525
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 2: They don't communicate with each other.

526
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:36,680
Speaker 1: Don't let me push back on that. Now here's what somebody,

527
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:40,360
Speaker 1: a cybersecurity person would say, Hey, that's a feature not above.

528
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:44,080
Speaker 2: That's a really good point. That's a really good point.

529
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:47,720
Speaker 1: Like they operate a big fear, right, the big fear

530
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:50,680
Speaker 1: I went knee deep into in the cyst sence and

531
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:55,400
Speaker 1: the cybersecurity folks, and a weird connection with a parent

532
00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 1: friend of you know, one of these weird parent connections

533
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 1: you end up learning more about out a certain part

534
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:03,960
Speaker 1: and that, you know, because when you look at the

535
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:07,080
Speaker 1: government and think, hey, why isn't there sort of more

536
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:09,800
Speaker 1: shared cybersecurity, it would be yeah, well here's the problem.

537
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:11,960
Speaker 1: Do you want one agency down for a day or

538
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:14,600
Speaker 1: do you want the entire federal government shutdown with the

539
00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:17,560
Speaker 1: cyber attack and so and I assume that's you know,

540
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:19,880
Speaker 1: times one hundred in our national security.

541
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:25,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. I mean you hear. The great example I

542
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:30,440
Speaker 2: got was about how hacked up and chopped up the

543
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 2: Pentagon is, and say said, look, if you're if you're

544
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:38,960
Speaker 2: a pilot in an F thirty five flying around and

545
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:41,080
Speaker 2: there's a pilot right next to you in an F eighteen,

546
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:44,920
Speaker 2: they can't talk to each other. So the only way,

547
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:46,840
Speaker 2: the only way they can communicate is like right on

548
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 2: pieces of paper and like hold it up to the windshield.

549
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:51,600
Speaker 2: You know, these things cost one hundred million dollars each.

550
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:55,360
Speaker 2: You know. But I think the I think the imperative,

551
00:30:55,640 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 2: as they would say, is that the modern war as

552
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:06,520
Speaker 2: they see it, will require really really rapid decision making

553
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:10,760
Speaker 2: and rapid coordination of all these assets. Which is to say,

554
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:14,160
Speaker 2: if you can, if you can imagine as they're trying

555
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 2: to do. If you can imagine a fleet of Chinese

556
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:20,520
Speaker 2: ships traveling through the Pacific, there's like three or four

557
00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:23,600
Speaker 2: different satellites that have to work together in order to

558
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:27,000
Speaker 2: target those ships. Uh, and and so that and and

559
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:30,120
Speaker 2: you know, guide the guide the weapons to them, and

560
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:32,160
Speaker 2: they and and so it's it's almost like a ballet.

561
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:35,600
Speaker 2: And so that that ballet is like not possible at

562
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:38,280
Speaker 2: the moment. It's just it would take a long time. No.

563
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:40,480
Speaker 1: And then what you're describing though, is like I'm having

564
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:44,280
Speaker 1: a warped flashback to the movie War Games, where suddenly

565
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:49,200
Speaker 1: it is computers essentially playing a game with each other

566
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 1: while us humans watch.

567
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:54,920
Speaker 2: Look, I think some of this stuff is pretty scary

568
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:57,040
Speaker 2: when you when you play it out. And I you know,

569
00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:01,520
Speaker 2: the Brian Schimp, who's this incredibly smart guy that runs

570
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:07,800
Speaker 2: and Orill the Weapons Company, he described the scenario and

571
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:10,480
Speaker 2: he said, imagine, you know, like a big area in

572
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:12,440
Speaker 2: the Pacific. Let's say it's you know, thirty miles by

573
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:15,880
Speaker 2: thirty miles, and let's say there's a squadron of Chinese

574
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:18,080
Speaker 2: ships that's moving through it. Now, you know, the Pacific's

575
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:21,120
Speaker 2: a big place. Let's say there's a squadron of ships.

576
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 2: What we want to be able to do is fire

577
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:28,440
Speaker 2: a bunch of missiles at those ships and that's it,

578
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:31,760
Speaker 2: and then sit back, basically, because we're going to assume

579
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:33,959
Speaker 2: that we will be cut off from communications with all

580
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:36,880
Speaker 2: of our weapons anyway, because the Chinese will be jamming everything,

581
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:40,640
Speaker 2: but that those weapons individually will be able to find

582
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:43,440
Speaker 2: the ships. They'll be able to figure out with each

583
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:46,960
Speaker 2: other so that they don't duplicate each other's efforts, and

584
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:48,840
Speaker 2: they'll be able to do these things on their own,

585
00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:53,440
Speaker 2: which means like thinking and talking. And you know, they've

586
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:57,640
Speaker 2: got brains, these these these weapons, and so it's not

587
00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:01,520
Speaker 2: difficult to imagine that getting out of control. It's not

588
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:04,400
Speaker 2: that hard. You know, Like what happens if they what

589
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:07,040
Speaker 2: happens if the ships aren't there? They go somewhere else,

590
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:10,360
Speaker 2: you know, or they turn around? I mean, I you know,

591
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:14,360
Speaker 2: like what happens? Yeah, I mean to say nothing of like,

592
00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:16,920
Speaker 2: how do you know that ship is a battleship and

593
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:18,280
Speaker 2: not a hospital ship? You know?

594
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:26,880
Speaker 1: Is is it? Palenteer, that's the the main UH company

595
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:30,520
Speaker 1: help in the Israelis it's one It's one of them,

596
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:34,320
Speaker 1: It's one of them. Palenteer does this it's it's amazing,

597
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 1: it really is.

598
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:39,600
Speaker 2: I sat in the Palenteer office in Washington and they've

599
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 2: got they've got a bunch of different offices. But because

600
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:43,880
Speaker 2: I said, like, you know what, can you just start

601
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:47,240
Speaker 2: showing me what you're doing, you know, And so they

602
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:49,280
Speaker 2: took me in this room and it was a huge map,

603
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:53,680
Speaker 2: an aerial map of eastern Ukraine. And they said, look,

604
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:55,800
Speaker 2: this is just a notional map. It's not like a

605
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:59,400
Speaker 2: real time thing. But basically it was everything that you

606
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,640
Speaker 2: could possibly see on the ground. You could see it

607
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:08,840
Speaker 2: the Russian military formations, the Ukrainian military formations, all the

608
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:12,560
Speaker 2: communications that were happening. And then so you know, we

609
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:14,480
Speaker 2: were just looking at this map and he said, the

610
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:16,600
Speaker 2: guy Palterer, said, let's go, let's go down to the ground.

611
00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:19,279
Speaker 2: Take a closer look. He's like that thing right there,

612
00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:21,840
Speaker 2: what's that that looks like a tank? That looks like

613
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:23,840
Speaker 2: a Russian tank? Do you want to take out that

614
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:27,640
Speaker 2: Russian tank? Let's see what's available to take out that

615
00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:29,799
Speaker 2: Russian tank. So then he clicked on something and then

616
00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:32,400
Speaker 2: it was like, well, there's some drones up here that

617
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:34,799
Speaker 2: we could use, or there's some artillery we could use.

618
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:37,400
Speaker 2: But you know, the drones, the Russian tanks are kind

619
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:39,239
Speaker 2: of a low priority target. So we're going to use

620
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:40,719
Speaker 2: a drone, you have to wait for a while. Why

621
00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:43,880
Speaker 2: don't we use the artillery. That's a lot faster. Click click,

622
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:49,880
Speaker 2: click was done. We didn't. We didn't, As it happens,

623
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:53,120
Speaker 2: we didn't blow that tank up. But that's kind of

624
00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:59,440
Speaker 2: what they do. So all of the satellites, sensors, every

625
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:03,240
Speaker 2: every piece of information you could imagine was being channeled

626
00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:05,920
Speaker 2: into that screen. And that's green is called Maven by

627
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:08,920
Speaker 2: the way. That's that's the problem. And the palent here,

628
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:11,440
Speaker 2: I mean, really, to their credit, they gave it to

629
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:13,920
Speaker 2: the Ukrainians. They just like gave it to them when

630
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:15,920
Speaker 2: the war started. They said, just take it, will help

631
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:18,560
Speaker 2: you run it. You're going to need this. And the

632
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:22,120
Speaker 2: Ukrainians use it. But but the Americans used that, like

633
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:25,560
Speaker 2: the Pentagon uses that Maven all over the place. And

634
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:27,920
Speaker 2: it's software, but it's like incredibly effective.

635
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:33,520
Speaker 1: How much does this desensitize war? I'm sorry, how much

636
00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:37,160
Speaker 1: does this desensitize war? You know, if you see it

637
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:39,640
Speaker 1: as a video game board, I mean, I'm sorry to

638
00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:47,759
Speaker 1: be calling it that, but that's what, right, it's you know, you're, you're,

639
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:50,400
Speaker 1: you're it's a target, it's not a human, right, and

640
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:52,960
Speaker 1: so it's this extra you know. I know, this was

641
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:55,759
Speaker 1: a conversation that was had about fifteen years ago when

642
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:59,680
Speaker 1: these drone pilots in Nevada, Yeah, we're killing people in

643
00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:03,480
Speaker 1: f a Stan in Pakistan and then going you know, oh,

644
00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:06,000
Speaker 1: all right, my shifts up and now I'm supposed to

645
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:08,920
Speaker 1: you know, and some of them internalized it, some of

646
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:13,239
Speaker 1: them didn't. I mean, this is an entirely and I

647
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:15,759
Speaker 1: don't know, like, how does the Pentagon deal with that?

648
00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:18,840
Speaker 1: Is there? Do they even think about those things?

649
00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:21,879
Speaker 2: I think so? But but as you say, I mean,

650
00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:26,400
Speaker 2: that's it's a it feels remote and it looks remote,

651
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:28,560
Speaker 2: and you know it is remote, and.

652
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:31,200
Speaker 1: And it makes it easier to do and you're not you're.

653
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:33,719
Speaker 2: Not hearing the screams. Yeah, that that that is for sure.

654
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:36,120
Speaker 2: And like the for instance, when I was in Israel,

655
00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:40,200
Speaker 2: I had a long conversation with a targeter. He was

656
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:42,680
Speaker 2: one of the guys that was basically pulling the trigger,

657
00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:45,880
Speaker 2: and he was he was explaining me how AI works,

658
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:49,440
Speaker 2: and he said, you know it, you know, grinds all

659
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:52,120
Speaker 2: this information and then it spits out a target and

660
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:54,000
Speaker 2: it says like do you you know you should hit

661
00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:56,919
Speaker 2: this target? Eighty percent certainty that it's a bad guy.

662
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:00,080
Speaker 2: And then like you know, he talks a couple be

663
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:02,080
Speaker 2: blowing like signs off on it, and like we we

664
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:04,960
Speaker 2: had this whole conversation over like a really nice lunch,

665
00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:09,840
Speaker 2: like not far from the Mediterranean in tel Aviv. You know,

666
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:11,040
Speaker 2: it doesn't make it.

667
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:14,359
Speaker 1: Full setting, right, tel Aviv doesn't make me a Miami guy.

668
00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:16,120
Speaker 1: I remember the first time I went to tele Aviv,

669
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:17,440
Speaker 1: I went, hey, this is Miami beach.

670
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:18,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes it is.

671
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:31,560
Speaker 3: My look, yeah, well this is a good transition to

672
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:34,200
Speaker 3: uh military recruitment.

673
00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:42,160
Speaker 1: This has been an ongoing problem, both quality and quantity.

674
00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:47,520
Speaker 1: Any has this turned around at all? And is there

675
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:50,799
Speaker 1: a concern that it's recruitment's getting say politicized.

676
00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:56,799
Speaker 2: It has turned around. It has turned around, and I

677
00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:59,640
Speaker 2: think Donald Trump would take credit for that, and and

678
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:01,520
Speaker 2: he he, he may be entitled to it. I mean,

679
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:05,200
Speaker 2: it's very it's very difficult to understand. I mean, it's

680
00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 2: not it's not where it needs to be. But you know,

681
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:10,399
Speaker 2: we can sort of talk about all those all those

682
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:16,759
Speaker 2: reasons why. But I wrote about this problem like a

683
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:18,680
Speaker 2: year and a half ago when it was really really

684
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:22,160
Speaker 2: at a low, and it is. It's like they, you know,

685
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:25,879
Speaker 2: they can't get people to join, and.

686
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:29,239
Speaker 1: There's nothing like an economic downturn that will increase military recruiting.

687
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:33,120
Speaker 2: I mean, thing that shocked me, the thing that shocked

688
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:39,160
Speaker 2: me about about reporting that story was I you know

689
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:43,440
Speaker 2: that the numbers are astounding. It's something like three quarters

690
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:48,080
Speaker 2: of American men and women between the ages of eighteen

691
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:52,880
Speaker 2: and thirty four, sort of prime physical years of your life,

692
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:56,959
Speaker 2: do not qualify for military service because they're either they're

693
00:38:56,960 --> 00:39:02,520
Speaker 2: too overweight, or they have some prior illness or some

694
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:06,560
Speaker 2: kind of mental disability can't pass the test. Three quarters,

695
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:10,360
Speaker 2: like gone, seventy seven percent of young people in this

696
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 2: country are out right away.

697
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:16,080
Speaker 4: Have our standards changed or I mean, well, what's what

698
00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:20,279
Speaker 4: I did? Was I the army. The Army, like you know,

699
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:22,560
Speaker 4: they're they're the guys that are dealing with this are

700
00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:23,279
Speaker 4: freaking out.

701
00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:27,239
Speaker 2: So they they set up I can't remember. It's like

702
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:30,200
Speaker 2: it's called something has some glorified name, like the Future

703
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:34,320
Speaker 2: Soldier Training Courts or something, but it's basically a fat farm,

704
00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:38,680
Speaker 2: you know, And so you come there you show up

705
00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:42,759
Speaker 2: if you're overweight, because you know, you can't just you

706
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:45,200
Speaker 2: can't be like obese and join the military. You have

707
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:50,480
Speaker 2: to be like your weight has to has to you know,

708
00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:52,880
Speaker 2: it has to match essentially your hide. And there's you know,

709
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:53,719
Speaker 2: there's various.

710
00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:55,720
Speaker 1: The Army is going to be kind of like the greatest,

711
00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:58,120
Speaker 1: biggest procure of Ozempica.

712
00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:01,799
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I well they haven't, they haven't gone there yet,

713
00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:04,960
Speaker 2: but you know, I think that's next, right, but if

714
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:08,320
Speaker 2: you so so many you know, close to three quarters

715
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:13,879
Speaker 2: of the kids can't qualify because they're too overweight. And

716
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:16,760
Speaker 2: so they've set up a kind of pre boot camp

717
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:21,799
Speaker 2: boot camp and basically you're there to lose weight. And

718
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:24,080
Speaker 2: so I went down to this camp and you know,

719
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:27,719
Speaker 2: the great thing about and it's like, you know, you

720
00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:29,360
Speaker 2: you kind of fall in love with America when you

721
00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:34,279
Speaker 2: go to a place like this, because the kids are amazing. Yeah,

722
00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:36,800
Speaker 2: they talked about anything, They talked about their whole lives.

723
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:39,640
Speaker 2: And like I remember talking to this one woman, she's

724
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:42,440
Speaker 2: like nineteen, you know, and she came in and she

725
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:44,880
Speaker 2: was really really overweight, and I can't remember, you know,

726
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:47,080
Speaker 2: she weighed like, you know, two hundred and fifty pounds

727
00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:51,560
Speaker 2: and she was gonna make way Like she was all

728
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:53,640
Speaker 2: the way down. She was like two pounds away.

729
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:57,000
Speaker 1: She had show the way you're it was amazing.

730
00:40:57,000 --> 00:40:59,720
Speaker 2: But you know, she was like she's from some small

731
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:03,000
Speaker 2: town in Ohio and like, you know, like her dad

732
00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:05,120
Speaker 2: had like a band in the family, and like she'd

733
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:08,160
Speaker 2: helped like you know, raise like her brothers and like,

734
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:10,960
Speaker 2: and you know, she's like, I was just eating like

735
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:14,600
Speaker 2: really bad food and like and playing video games all day.

736
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:17,239
Speaker 2: And that's kind of like, you know, it's like the

737
00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:20,279
Speaker 2: world we live in, you know. And so, but but

738
00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:24,359
Speaker 2: what was really touching about hanging out with all these

739
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:27,480
Speaker 2: nineteen year olds is like, you know, they're they're super motivated,

740
00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:31,000
Speaker 2: like they want to do it, like they really want it,

741
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:32,920
Speaker 2: and like they were they were doing it, you know,

742
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:34,120
Speaker 2: they they were doing it.

743
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:38,520
Speaker 1: What sizes of force do we need? Like we just

744
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:41,319
Speaker 1: spent half an hour talking about her, you know, right,

745
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:43,720
Speaker 1: so and at the same time we're saying, we're our

746
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:46,279
Speaker 1: recruitment's down, but what do we need?

747
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:51,480
Speaker 2: You know that it's a great question because when you

748
00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:53,799
Speaker 2: you know, you the first half of this conversation we

749
00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:57,920
Speaker 2: talked about, you know, drones and AI and automating all

750
00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:02,720
Speaker 2: these things that don't need people. And I remember this guy.

751
00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:06,160
Speaker 2: I was talking to this general and we were talking

752
00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:08,239
Speaker 2: about just the subject, and he said, you know, we

753
00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:11,160
Speaker 2: really need we need like cyber we need like cyber

754
00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:13,120
Speaker 2: warriors and any kind of pause and he said, like

755
00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:18,279
Speaker 2: fat kids welcome. That kids welcome, But the truth is

756
00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:22,239
Speaker 2: like fat kids aren't welcome. But you know, it makes

757
00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:24,359
Speaker 2: you think you're thinking, like, look, if all we're doing

758
00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:26,760
Speaker 2: is like or if a good chunk of the military

759
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:31,120
Speaker 2: now is basically just you know, doing cyber war and

760
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 2: radar and tracking and satellites, do they really need to

761
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:39,799
Speaker 2: be able to fit? You know, they're not gonna you know,

762
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:41,360
Speaker 2: they don't have to do a ten mile hike. And

763
00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:45,360
Speaker 2: then you know, cut somebody's throat, so like do do

764
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:47,640
Speaker 2: they really need that? And so that's one debate and

765
00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:49,080
Speaker 2: then the other as you say, like why do we

766
00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:51,799
Speaker 2: need all these people anyway to do what? Like I

767
00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:54,799
Speaker 2: don't think seems like it's a good bet we're not

768
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:58,680
Speaker 2: going to a rock or Afghanistan anytime. Sint like the

769
00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:02,480
Speaker 2: country's like, no way, We're.

770
00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:04,279
Speaker 1: Not nation building for at least the rest of my

771
00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:07,000
Speaker 1: I guess the rest of our time on earth. Right,

772
00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:10,520
Speaker 1: maybe you know, maybe that'll come back in twenty five years,

773
00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:11,320
Speaker 1: but that ain't.

774
00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:13,080
Speaker 2: Happening once everybody forgets about it.

775
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:15,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, we did Vietnam and this, we tried that.

776
00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:18,640
Speaker 1: Then you know, thirty years later we try it again.

777
00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:23,960
Speaker 1: I guess maybe every thirty years we touk ourselves into it. Well,

778
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:29,480
Speaker 1: that then dovetails to fractured alliances. Right, what made our

779
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:35,480
Speaker 1: military so strong was NATO and these incredible you know,

780
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:38,200
Speaker 1: that's sort of the It's obviously the biggest symbol of

781
00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:42,760
Speaker 1: our alliances, but frankly seamless. It was becoming a seamless alliance.

782
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:47,120
Speaker 1: And now obviously the rise of nationalism. It's not just

783
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:50,279
Speaker 1: here in the UK, it's everywhere. And the rise of

784
00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:55,800
Speaker 1: nationalism is going to mean less cooperation even among our allies.

785
00:43:56,560 --> 00:43:59,279
Speaker 1: What kind of peril does this put our military in?

786
00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:04,040
Speaker 2: Well, like, we're not strong enough that we don't need friends.

787
00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:07,520
Speaker 2: You know, nobody is. They got to have friends. It's

788
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:11,520
Speaker 2: good to have friends. And I think, look there, you

789
00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:15,400
Speaker 2: know Trump, Trump has spent the last six months bashing

790
00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:21,040
Speaker 2: the Europeans, our friends, our best friends who we need.

791
00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:24,239
Speaker 2: But so's it's a little it's a little hard to

792
00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:28,799
Speaker 2: kind of figure out that whole act because you know,

793
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:32,080
Speaker 2: Trump is very crude, he's overbearing. Uh, he threatens to

794
00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:35,279
Speaker 2: leave the Alliance. He's like, we don't need you, screw you,

795
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:38,880
Speaker 2: We're out of here. NATO's a joke. But he hasn't

796
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:41,520
Speaker 2: done any of that, you know. I mean, we still

797
00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:44,600
Speaker 2: have a lot of troops in Europe on the front line,

798
00:44:45,040 --> 00:44:49,319
Speaker 2: you know, Lithuania and other places, and and so, but

799
00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:51,560
Speaker 2: he has like scared the hell out of the Europeans,

800
00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:54,840
Speaker 2: and so they're now they've now committed, I think, pretty

801
00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:59,640
Speaker 2: resolutely to increase their dispense defense spending, which I think

802
00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:03,680
Speaker 2: you're when you said the Alliance is like at the

803
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:06,279
Speaker 2: point where it was seamless, it was worth you know, incredibly,

804
00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:08,919
Speaker 2: but it was it was ours basically, like we paid

805
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:09,560
Speaker 2: for everything.

806
00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:11,680
Speaker 1: Well, but I sort of viewed it that way, you know.

807
00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:15,960
Speaker 1: You know, it's hard to tell the tell average American like, no, no, no, no, no,

808
00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:19,319
Speaker 1: this is this is the moderns almost what I want

809
00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:21,760
Speaker 1: to tell Trump, which is, you don't want more land

810
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:24,680
Speaker 1: for the United States. We got Europe without actually having

811
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:28,880
Speaker 1: to pay sold security benefits, Like we got Europe without

812
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:33,440
Speaker 1: actually having the responsibility of governing. It isn't that the

813
00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:35,440
Speaker 1: best of all worlds. I hate to be that crass

814
00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:38,080
Speaker 1: about it, but but that is one way to think

815
00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:40,560
Speaker 1: about you know, quote you know, we it was a

816
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:41,840
Speaker 1: new type of imperialism.

817
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:46,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean I think yeah, I mean, look,

818
00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:48,279
Speaker 2: I think if they if they start paying more for

819
00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:50,480
Speaker 2: their own defense and they become more powerful, they're going

820
00:45:50,520 --> 00:45:53,759
Speaker 2: to be They're going to be more difficult, right for sure.

821
00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 1: I mean every you know, when the Germans build a

822
00:45:56,239 --> 00:45:57,640
Speaker 1: military usually goes really well.

823
00:45:57,840 --> 00:45:59,680
Speaker 2: But it is, you know, it is a it's a

824
00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:02,759
Speaker 2: it's quite a moment for Europe. It really is, because

825
00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:05,920
Speaker 2: when you think, I mean, all these countries after the

826
00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:08,360
Speaker 2: Second World War, they basically said, okay, like we're done.

827
00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:11,680
Speaker 2: You know, like fifty million people just died. We're not

828
00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:15,320
Speaker 2: doing that again again. Right, And they needn't entirely disarmed,

829
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:19,400
Speaker 2: but almost they spend tiny percentages of their GDP on

830
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:22,120
Speaker 2: you know, let's let the United States worry about our defense.

831
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:25,800
Speaker 2: And Trump has sufficiently like scared the daylights out of

832
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:29,920
Speaker 2: them that we're not going to be there. And you know,

833
00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:32,959
Speaker 2: at the same time that putin, I think has given

834
00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:36,080
Speaker 2: every indication I mean He's practically beat Trump over the

835
00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:40,160
Speaker 2: head with the idea of I'm not stopping. We want

836
00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:43,320
Speaker 2: all of Ukraine, right, And if they get all of Ukraine,

837
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:44,759
Speaker 2: where are they going to go next? He wants to

838
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:47,160
Speaker 2: reconstitute the old Soviet Union and so what does that mean?

839
00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:49,920
Speaker 2: That means like probably Moldova, and you know, he's already

840
00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:52,360
Speaker 2: got part of Georgia, and then like maybe the Baltic

841
00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:53,080
Speaker 2: States and.

842
00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:56,920
Speaker 1: Like, and another question I have is, you know, is

843
00:46:56,960 --> 00:47:03,560
Speaker 1: Donald is Donald Trump willing to accept an Article five

844
00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:05,600
Speaker 1: request from Lithuania?

845
00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:09,399
Speaker 2: Well, I think that's that's the sixty four thousand dollars question.

846
00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:13,600
Speaker 2: I think it helps that there's a brigade I think

847
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:17,799
Speaker 2: roughly thirty five hundred American troops in Lithuania and the

848
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:20,040
Speaker 2: other Baltic states, and so in a way they're kind

849
00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:23,040
Speaker 2: of a trick wire. But so if the Russians tried

850
00:47:23,080 --> 00:47:25,319
Speaker 2: to roll in, but you know, place like Lithuania is

851
00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:29,399
Speaker 2: so tiny, the Russians would be at the Baltic Sea,

852
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:31,680
Speaker 2: you know, by the end of the day, you know,

853
00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:34,239
Speaker 2: or the next day, and like and then and then

854
00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:35,919
Speaker 2: it would be like, are we going to go to war?

855
00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:41,640
Speaker 2: Deliberate Lithuania? You know, not just defend it. And you know,

856
00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:44,520
Speaker 2: Lithuania is a long way away, and like it's not

857
00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:47,000
Speaker 2: really connected to the other countries in the alliance or

858
00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:51,080
Speaker 2: just just kind of barely, and so those are really

859
00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:53,480
Speaker 2: hard questions. But I but I think the weird thing

860
00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:56,880
Speaker 2: about Trump is that again he's like, he's very crude.

861
00:47:58,160 --> 00:47:59,920
Speaker 2: But I but I think if the net resulted that

862
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:02,160
Speaker 2: is that the Europeans are going to start paying more

863
00:48:02,520 --> 00:48:05,479
Speaker 2: and they're going to get serious about defending themselves than

864
00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:06,919
Speaker 2: than Trump did a good thing.

865
00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:08,920
Speaker 1: I was just going to say, I mean, you know,

866
00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:11,719
Speaker 1: I was impressed when all those European leaders came with

867
00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:19,560
Speaker 1: Elenski because it showed that, wow, Europe's never that united.

868
00:48:19,239 --> 00:48:20,640
Speaker 2: With each other. Yeah.

869
00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:23,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, you had the Prime Minister of Italy who you know,

870
00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:26,560
Speaker 1: who was not exactly you know, tight with Macron or

871
00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:29,279
Speaker 1: you know, and yet they're not even share the same

872
00:48:29,320 --> 00:48:31,600
Speaker 1: ideology these days when it comes to migrants of all

873
00:48:31,600 --> 00:48:35,440
Speaker 1: these things. But they're you know, this defense Alliance does

874
00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:39,040
Speaker 1: seem pretty durable in a way that I don't know

875
00:48:39,040 --> 00:48:40,520
Speaker 1: if any of us thought that would have been the

876
00:48:40,560 --> 00:48:41,960
Speaker 1: case even ten years ago.

877
00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:44,920
Speaker 2: Well, I think I think Putin has focused their minds.

878
00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:47,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, sure, Well and you add in Finland and Sweden

879
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:49,160
Speaker 1: and you've added for a couple of pretty good armies,

880
00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:50,160
Speaker 1: right yeah.

881
00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:51,960
Speaker 2: I mean it's weird when you think about it, like

882
00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:54,880
Speaker 2: what what a terrible miscalculation Putin made?

883
00:48:55,040 --> 00:48:58,080
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I mean huge?

884
00:48:58,239 --> 00:49:02,800
Speaker 2: Right yeah, like has expanded NATO's rearming, you know, and

885
00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:05,560
Speaker 2: you know the troops that it initially invaded, the Russian

886
00:49:05,560 --> 00:49:07,799
Speaker 2: troops that initially invaded Ukraine. You know, they brought their

887
00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:11,920
Speaker 2: parade uniforms with them because they were going in for

888
00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:14,480
Speaker 2: the victory parade like seventy two hours later, you know,

889
00:49:14,560 --> 00:49:16,359
Speaker 2: and it's like it didn't work out.

890
00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:20,400
Speaker 1: Let me get you out of here. On more of

891
00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:23,799
Speaker 1: a person, how did you end up that this was

892
00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:26,520
Speaker 1: your beat? You know? You just sort of you know,

893
00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:29,399
Speaker 1: like I've always been. It's like, how did you end up?

894
00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:32,160
Speaker 1: Like as you're this guy and I say this with

895
00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:38,120
Speaker 1: utmost respect, there's really no peer. I'm guessing you didn't

896
00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:41,080
Speaker 1: set out to be you know sort of this was

897
00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:44,120
Speaker 1: going to be your beat and you have this incredible

898
00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:47,799
Speaker 1: beat that that I wish we would have if it

899
00:49:47,880 --> 00:49:51,600
Speaker 1: was gone type of mindset. How'd you get there? You know?

900
00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:54,319
Speaker 2: It was like one thing led to another. You know,

901
00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:57,800
Speaker 2: I covered I started as like a police reporter for

902
00:49:57,880 --> 00:50:01,880
Speaker 2: the Miami Herald in west On Beach. Uh and that

903
00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:05,360
Speaker 2: was that was a fun job. And I covered the

904
00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:09,239
Speaker 2: County Commission in Miami, and and then and then I,

905
00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:11,120
Speaker 2: you know, I I one thing led to another. But

906
00:50:11,160 --> 00:50:15,040
Speaker 2: basically I never set out to do it. And I

907
00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:17,279
Speaker 2: and I and I should say, I like, I've done

908
00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:20,800
Speaker 2: a lot of crazy stuff, but I haven't done anything

909
00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:25,440
Speaker 2: really crazy for some time. Uh not not really since,

910
00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:28,959
Speaker 2: uh not for more than a decade, like really really

911
00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:31,520
Speaker 2: lunatic like I used to do. And I think the

912
00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:33,480
Speaker 2: last thing, I just go into war zones.

913
00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:35,680
Speaker 1: Maybe with that, yeah, well I like that.

914
00:50:36,160 --> 00:50:38,040
Speaker 2: Well, you know, I've kind of learned how to do

915
00:50:38,080 --> 00:50:40,120
Speaker 2: them in a way that's pretty safe. Like you know,

916
00:50:40,160 --> 00:50:42,040
Speaker 2: I was in Ukraine, but I didn't go to the

917
00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:46,360
Speaker 2: front line and Craine for instance. But but but I

918
00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:51,400
Speaker 2: mean the last I've had more close calls than I deserve,

919
00:50:52,760 --> 00:50:57,239
Speaker 2: you know, way more than nine lives. And I did.

920
00:50:57,360 --> 00:51:01,040
Speaker 2: I did have a couple of realizations. Again this is

921
00:51:01,040 --> 00:51:03,440
Speaker 2: about a decade ago. There was one in particular in

922
00:51:03,480 --> 00:51:06,440
Speaker 2: Afghanistan where I thought like, oh my god, like what

923
00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:10,600
Speaker 2: are you doing? And you know, because being in a

924
00:51:10,640 --> 00:51:14,279
Speaker 2: war zone like that, anyone will tell you it's like

925
00:51:14,320 --> 00:51:16,800
Speaker 2: playing poker, and like if you stay at the table

926
00:51:16,880 --> 00:51:21,439
Speaker 2: long enough, you're going to lose, you know, like cards

927
00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:24,719
Speaker 2: are going to come up bad for you. So I

928
00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:27,080
Speaker 2: so I just sort of cash most of that most

929
00:51:27,120 --> 00:51:28,960
Speaker 2: of that in. But to answer your question, I had

930
00:51:28,960 --> 00:51:31,799
Speaker 2: no idea that I would end up running around the

931
00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:32,560
Speaker 2: world in this way.

932
00:51:32,680 --> 00:51:36,359
Speaker 1: Who's the first war that you covered? God, that's a

933
00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:37,360
Speaker 1: really good question, you know.

934
00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:41,600
Speaker 2: I got I was living in India for the La

935
00:51:41,719 --> 00:51:45,160
Speaker 2: Times in the late nineteen nineties, and this was kind

936
00:51:45,160 --> 00:51:49,319
Speaker 2: of how I got started because it was I went

937
00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:51,319
Speaker 2: I got a visa to go to Afghanistan and it

938
00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:53,040
Speaker 2: was in the late nineteen nineties, so it was the

939
00:51:53,080 --> 00:51:56,600
Speaker 2: first Taliban government. The first thing I did the first

940
00:51:56,640 --> 00:51:59,319
Speaker 2: morning I got there, it was a Friday morning, and

941
00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:04,880
Speaker 2: that's when they do public executions and amputations. And I

942
00:52:04,920 --> 00:52:07,160
Speaker 2: went to the Cobbles sports Stadium and I watched an

943
00:52:07,160 --> 00:52:09,480
Speaker 2: execution and an amputation as.

944
00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:11,240
Speaker 1: They were reading the sports stadium.

945
00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:15,080
Speaker 2: Think about that, Yeah, yeah, yeah, I was like I

946
00:52:15,160 --> 00:52:17,200
Speaker 2: was a special guest. I mean, they were very pleased

947
00:52:17,239 --> 00:52:20,880
Speaker 2: to have me and Yeah, that was That was really something.

948
00:52:21,680 --> 00:52:23,520
Speaker 2: And there was a civil war going on inside the

949
00:52:23,560 --> 00:52:25,400
Speaker 2: country at the time, because you know, there was a

950
00:52:25,400 --> 00:52:26,880
Speaker 2: big part of the country that didn't want to be

951
00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:27,600
Speaker 2: part of the Taliman.

952
00:52:27,680 --> 00:52:31,279
Speaker 1: But did we know what there was there yet or no,

953
00:52:32,040 --> 00:52:36,839
Speaker 1: it was did we know Ben Laden was in Afghanistan?

954
00:52:36,960 --> 00:52:39,840
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I mean it was all you know,

955
00:52:39,880 --> 00:52:41,800
Speaker 2: if I could do it all again, I'd do very differently.

956
00:52:41,840 --> 00:52:45,520
Speaker 2: But I remember, I remember in that this is the

957
00:52:45,600 --> 00:52:47,959
Speaker 2: late nineteen nineties, so it was a few years before

958
00:52:48,040 --> 00:52:52,120
Speaker 2: nine to eleven. Right, It was all over town. You know,

959
00:52:52,840 --> 00:52:56,120
Speaker 2: they said, look, if you go, I'm not kidding. There

960
00:52:56,200 --> 00:52:57,920
Speaker 2: used to be a volleyball game that they would all

961
00:52:57,960 --> 00:53:01,040
Speaker 2: play and they'd say, look that Jihads all play Bin Laden.

962
00:53:01,080 --> 00:53:04,319
Speaker 2: They all played volleyball outside of town. And those are

963
00:53:04,360 --> 00:53:06,160
Speaker 2: the guys, you know, they fought against the Russians when

964
00:53:06,160 --> 00:53:07,920
Speaker 2: the Russians are here, but they never went home. And

965
00:53:07,960 --> 00:53:12,600
Speaker 2: they all speak Arabic. Don't let them see you they

966
00:53:12,600 --> 00:53:17,200
Speaker 2: see it Western or they're gonna go crazy. But everybody

967
00:53:17,239 --> 00:53:19,360
Speaker 2: kind of knew that we're there. There were training camps

968
00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:21,600
Speaker 2: that were there. I mean those are been Lauden's training camps.

969
00:53:22,719 --> 00:53:24,279
Speaker 2: So it was all kind of there and it was

970
00:53:24,320 --> 00:53:26,040
Speaker 2: sort of below the surface and you could kind of

971
00:53:26,040 --> 00:53:28,400
Speaker 2: see it, but it was very difficult to kind of

972
00:53:28,400 --> 00:53:30,600
Speaker 2: figure out what it meant, you know. I mean when

973
00:53:30,680 --> 00:53:33,200
Speaker 2: nine to eleven happened, I knew immediately decided, oh god,

974
00:53:33,239 --> 00:53:34,560
Speaker 2: you know I just watched all that.

975
00:53:34,960 --> 00:53:37,680
Speaker 1: You saw it, right, it was like that. I assumed

976
00:53:37,680 --> 00:53:40,120
Speaker 1: it made you jump right into that.

977
00:53:40,520 --> 00:53:42,600
Speaker 2: Well. No, I mean I was covering the Bronx for

978
00:53:42,640 --> 00:53:45,520
Speaker 2: the New York Times, and I was an absolutely failed

979
00:53:45,880 --> 00:53:48,919
Speaker 2: Bronx reporter. But they Yeah, somebody came up and tapped

980
00:53:48,960 --> 00:53:52,239
Speaker 2: me on the shoulder and said, haven't you been to Afghanistan?

981
00:53:52,239 --> 00:53:53,640
Speaker 2: And like I was like the only person in the

982
00:53:53,719 --> 00:53:56,000
Speaker 2: news or had been there, and I said, yes, yes,

983
00:53:56,080 --> 00:53:57,799
Speaker 2: I've been five times. And so they put me on

984
00:53:57,840 --> 00:54:05,000
Speaker 2: a plane and kind of you know, uh history, Yeah, yeah.

985
00:54:03,160 --> 00:54:06,080
Speaker 1: How do you uh you say that you've cast your chips,

986
00:54:06,120 --> 00:54:11,279
Speaker 1: But every war correspondent I know has this. The adrenaline

987
00:54:11,480 --> 00:54:15,040
Speaker 1: is there, it's a dopamine. How have you replaced it?

988
00:54:17,040 --> 00:54:22,719
Speaker 2: Well, I think I've successfully weaned myself from from all

989
00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:26,680
Speaker 2: from all that, from from getting because the like I

990
00:54:26,760 --> 00:54:29,279
Speaker 2: never really people have asked me many times they say, like,

991
00:54:29,360 --> 00:54:31,800
Speaker 2: do you do you get Are you addicted to violence?

992
00:54:31,880 --> 00:54:36,560
Speaker 2: You know, no, like, no way, No. It's scary as

993
00:54:36,600 --> 00:54:38,000
Speaker 2: hell to be out there and I don't want to

994
00:54:38,040 --> 00:54:40,120
Speaker 2: get killed and I don't like to play those kinds

995
00:54:40,160 --> 00:54:43,279
Speaker 2: of games. But what what what you do get kind

996
00:54:43,320 --> 00:54:46,680
Speaker 2: of addicted to a bit is is kind of the

997
00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:49,920
Speaker 2: largeness of it, because you know, to be in the

998
00:54:49,960 --> 00:54:53,080
Speaker 2: middle of a war. Wars are very big things and

999
00:54:53,080 --> 00:54:56,439
Speaker 2: and people are fighting and dying and putting their lives

1000
00:54:56,480 --> 00:54:58,440
Speaker 2: in the line, and and you know, in a place

1001
00:54:58,480 --> 00:55:02,759
Speaker 2: like a rock, I watched a whole society and disintegrate

1002
00:55:03,239 --> 00:55:05,000
Speaker 2: like in front of my eyes. And I, you know,

1003
00:55:05,040 --> 00:55:06,880
Speaker 2: I knew Iraqis, I was friends with them, and I

1004
00:55:06,920 --> 00:55:09,839
Speaker 2: saw this kind of happening, and those are you know,

1005
00:55:09,880 --> 00:55:13,240
Speaker 2: you feel that the continental plates are like literally shifting

1006
00:55:14,360 --> 00:55:17,000
Speaker 2: in front of you, and history is kind of unfolding

1007
00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:20,920
Speaker 2: in front of you. And that's that is kind of addictive.

1008
00:55:20,480 --> 00:55:20,680
Speaker 3: You know.

1009
00:55:20,719 --> 00:55:24,920
Speaker 2: That's uh, that's like breathing pure oxygen. It's extraordinary. You know,

1010
00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:27,560
Speaker 2: it's amazing, and I'm lucky to have survived a lot

1011
00:55:27,560 --> 00:55:31,719
Speaker 2: of those things. But that's that's the allure. It's not

1012
00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:33,719
Speaker 2: so much the violence as the largeness.

1013
00:55:34,160 --> 00:55:36,480
Speaker 1: Well then you get at the and that's it makes us.

1014
00:55:36,600 --> 00:55:39,600
Speaker 1: You know, I've I've always felt too detached from it.

1015
00:55:40,320 --> 00:55:44,160
Speaker 1: You know. Area was covering the political implications, the policy implications,

1016
00:55:44,200 --> 00:55:46,160
Speaker 1: and these are very but not to be on the

1017
00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:48,360
Speaker 1: front lines. I always felt like I was missing something

1018
00:55:48,600 --> 00:55:51,640
Speaker 1: and it probably made it meaning that there were questions

1019
00:55:51,640 --> 00:55:53,600
Speaker 1: I wasn't asking that I would know to ask if

1020
00:55:53,600 --> 00:55:57,400
Speaker 1: I were there, right like that to me, that's irreplaceable, right.

1021
00:55:57,800 --> 00:56:01,759
Speaker 2: Well, yes and no, because I would I felt the

1022
00:56:01,760 --> 00:56:04,960
Speaker 2: same way being down there in the ground going the

1023
00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:07,600
Speaker 2: other way, going out, like what are they talking about?

1024
00:56:07,840 --> 00:56:09,200
Speaker 2: You know, what what are they going to do next?

1025
00:56:09,239 --> 00:56:12,319
Speaker 2: And so it's hard to it's hard to take it

1026
00:56:12,360 --> 00:56:14,919
Speaker 2: all in. So again it's if it's a big, big

1027
00:56:14,960 --> 00:56:17,160
Speaker 2: thing like that, and if you could say the same

1028
00:56:17,160 --> 00:56:21,040
Speaker 2: in Ukraine today, Yeah, it's it starts in Washington and

1029
00:56:21,080 --> 00:56:24,080
Speaker 2: goes all the way down to the ground. Yeah.

1030
00:56:24,080 --> 00:56:27,400
Speaker 1: Well, dexter Man, this is uh, this was this was fantastic.

1031
00:56:27,560 --> 00:56:29,839
Speaker 1: Like I said, I'd love reading your stuff. I know

1032
00:56:29,880 --> 00:56:32,279
Speaker 1: you think you right, you know that they're too long,

1033
00:56:32,320 --> 00:56:35,320
Speaker 1: But the New Yorkers has pretty good editors. They would

1034
00:56:35,560 --> 00:56:39,040
Speaker 1: they would tell you if it wasn't getting read. They're along,

1035
00:56:40,160 --> 00:56:41,799
Speaker 1: they would tell you if it wasn't getting read. And

1036
00:56:41,840 --> 00:56:44,200
Speaker 1: you know the way New Yorker subscribers are. They read

1037
00:56:44,200 --> 00:56:45,680
Speaker 1: all the way to the end, and they find the

1038
00:56:45,680 --> 00:56:46,600
Speaker 1: grammatical errors.

1039
00:56:47,640 --> 00:56:51,120
Speaker 2: Yes, weird most people. Well, well, Chuck, thank you so

1040
00:56:51,200 --> 00:56:52,400
Speaker 2: much for having me that brother,