WEBVTT - Trump Weighing Easing Stay-at-Home Advice 0:00:00.440 --> 0:00:02.960 This is Bloomberg Business Week. I'm Carol Masser and I'm 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:05.480 Jason Kelly. We're here every day bringing you the latest 0:00:05.519 --> 0:00:09.800 news from the world's of business and finance, plus technology, politics, economics, 0:00:09.840 --> 0:00:13.480 all harnessing the power of Bloomberg Business Week reporters and editors, 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:16.759 not to mention our journalists and analysts more than a 0:00:16.800 --> 0:00:19.520 hundred and twenty countries. You can download Bloomberg Business Week 0:00:19.560 --> 0:00:22.439 on iTunes, SoundCloud, or Bloomberg dot Com. You can also 0:00:22.480 --> 0:00:24.919 listen to our radio show weekdays at two pm Eastern 0:00:25.000 --> 0:00:28.680 only on Bloomberg Radio. All right, so let's get to that, folks. 0:00:29.080 --> 0:00:32.839 To date, AmeriCares has delivered six tons of protective supplies 0:00:32.840 --> 0:00:36.320 for the COVID nineteen pandemic, and more international domestic shipments 0:00:36.320 --> 0:00:38.680 are planned. The company works with more than four thousand 0:00:38.720 --> 0:00:44.680 health centers around the globe. Dr Julie um for verhe's 0:00:44.760 --> 0:00:46.000 forgive me. I just want to make sure I had 0:00:46.000 --> 0:00:48.800 that right. Julie Ver, He's he's. She is chief medical 0:00:48.840 --> 0:00:51.320 officer at America Cares UH and she joins us on 0:00:51.360 --> 0:00:54.440 the phone from Chicago. UM. Dr for He's nice to 0:00:54.480 --> 0:00:57.240 have you here with us, fast and furious. Where are 0:00:57.280 --> 0:01:01.040 we in terms of those protect active supplies for our 0:01:01.080 --> 0:01:05.240 healthcare workers. Thank you so much for having me UM. 0:01:05.600 --> 0:01:09.080 As we've seen, we are having significant challenges in terms 0:01:09.160 --> 0:01:14.160 of sourcing protective equipment or healthcare workers on the front lines. UM. 0:01:14.200 --> 0:01:18.319 You know at America's we have sentshipments of personal protective equipment, 0:01:18.360 --> 0:01:21.720 particularly in hot films UM here in the US in 0:01:21.920 --> 0:01:26.240 Washington State, California, New York. But UM have, similar to 0:01:26.280 --> 0:01:30.360 other organizations, been having a significant, significant number of challenges 0:01:30.400 --> 0:01:34.040 in terms of sourcing supplies that are so critically needed 0:01:34.160 --> 0:01:36.880 right now for healthcare workers. I think one of the 0:01:36.920 --> 0:01:39.880 concerns was, and I certainly saw this over the weekend, Jason, 0:01:39.880 --> 0:01:43.120 you probably did tune watching the press conferences between governors 0:01:43.200 --> 0:01:45.560 and what we got from the Coronavirus Task Force that 0:01:45.600 --> 0:01:48.720 there seems to be you know, is there the flow 0:01:49.080 --> 0:01:52.320 of equipment. Is the government kind of taking central control 0:01:52.520 --> 0:01:55.520 of it and making sure that supplies are getting to 0:01:55.680 --> 0:01:58.200 where they need to go, because what we're seeing is 0:01:58.240 --> 0:02:01.880 price gouging as state try to access the needed supplies. 0:02:01.960 --> 0:02:04.600 Are we getting that coordinated effort that seems to be 0:02:04.680 --> 0:02:08.640 necessary at this point? Yeah, that's a great question. I 0:02:08.680 --> 0:02:12.120 think there's a lot of action that is taking place 0:02:12.360 --> 0:02:16.720 UM and and there's a lot of coordination that is happening, 0:02:16.760 --> 0:02:19.520 but there's still more that's really needed. UM. You know, 0:02:19.600 --> 0:02:22.359 we are seeing a lot of the individual states taking 0:02:22.440 --> 0:02:27.760 significant measures UM, but certainly this is a cross sectoral effort. 0:02:27.960 --> 0:02:30.320 This is an unprecedented time that we're in. We have 0:02:30.440 --> 0:02:33.919 not seen these types of shortages in previous help grips 0:02:34.000 --> 0:02:37.200 that we've been involved with, and so certainly there is 0:02:37.240 --> 0:02:40.680 a call for even more action UM and collaboration and 0:02:40.720 --> 0:02:44.960 coordination amongst the various sectors within government but also in 0:02:45.120 --> 0:02:47.919 the private and public sectors as well. And so Dr 0:02:47.919 --> 0:02:51.560 Brahe's help us understand. You know, with this limited amount 0:02:52.240 --> 0:02:56.720 of protective gear, how does that play through to you know, 0:02:56.760 --> 0:03:00.320 what everyday people should be doing in terms of when 0:03:00.400 --> 0:03:03.080 to go to a hospital, when to go to a clinic, 0:03:03.440 --> 0:03:06.640 how to sort of deal with with their own stuff 0:03:06.680 --> 0:03:09.880 in order to not uh, sort of way too much 0:03:10.200 --> 0:03:15.200 on the system unnecessarily. Yeah, that's a fantastic question. And 0:03:15.480 --> 0:03:19.120 I think the general public, you know, I can't over 0:03:19.200 --> 0:03:22.840 emphasize enough the importance of social distancing. We're seeing so 0:03:22.919 --> 0:03:25.720 much of that emphasized in the media. Um, you know, 0:03:25.840 --> 0:03:29.600 folks really being urged to stay at home to the 0:03:29.639 --> 0:03:32.440 best of their ability. Um. You know, certainly there's needs 0:03:32.480 --> 0:03:35.080 to go out for medical care and growth rates, but 0:03:35.680 --> 0:03:37.920 really trying to stay home as much as possible. And 0:03:37.960 --> 0:03:41.600 I think that every single person has an important role 0:03:41.680 --> 0:03:44.880 to play in contributing just slowing down the spread. We're 0:03:44.880 --> 0:03:47.520 hearing a lot about flattening the curve or slowing down 0:03:47.560 --> 0:03:51.320 the spread of infection, and so I think implementing social distancing, 0:03:51.680 --> 0:03:57.160 really focusing on preventative measures like basic handwashing, cough etiquette, UM, 0:03:57.240 --> 0:04:00.080 not touching your faith are so important. And and I 0:04:00.080 --> 0:04:03.320 would say, really we're focusing not just on kind of 0:04:03.360 --> 0:04:07.520 containing the infection, We're focusing on not overwhelming the healthcare system. Well, 0:04:07.600 --> 0:04:10.200 Dr Varkis, and I forgive, forgive me, I think I've 0:04:10.200 --> 0:04:13.360 been mispronouncing your name, so my apologies, but Dr Archie's 0:04:13.440 --> 0:04:15.080 I think that's what I was seeing a lot of 0:04:15.160 --> 0:04:17.599 questions about over the weekend. Where are we getting to 0:04:17.640 --> 0:04:21.279 a point because of shortage of supplies of this protective 0:04:21.800 --> 0:04:28.279 gear for healthcare workers that UM, medical personnel, doctors and 0:04:28.360 --> 0:04:31.200 others will have to make choices about who they can 0:04:31.240 --> 0:04:34.840 treat or who they can provide equipment on, whether it's 0:04:34.880 --> 0:04:38.200 based on age or based on how vulnerable somebody is. 0:04:38.279 --> 0:04:41.760 I mean, are we getting to that point? I don't 0:04:41.760 --> 0:04:44.680 think we're quite there yet, but will we get there 0:04:44.760 --> 0:04:48.720 in a week potentially? It's hard to know exactly what 0:04:48.960 --> 0:04:50.880 the timeline could be. And I think all of the 0:04:50.920 --> 0:04:54.000 efforts were trying to put into place currently um both 0:04:54.000 --> 0:04:58.279 at the state and federal level, really trying to help 0:04:58.520 --> 0:05:02.320 decrease the risk of getting there. Certainly, the healthcare system 0:05:02.480 --> 0:05:06.000 and healthcare workers are already McCoy taxed in terms of 0:05:06.120 --> 0:05:10.040 limitations on personal protective equipment and other types of equipment. 0:05:10.120 --> 0:05:13.800 But we're really trying to help slow down the spread 0:05:13.920 --> 0:05:16.600 and and how fast we may find ourselves in that 0:05:16.640 --> 0:05:19.720 type of situation like we're seeing, you know, in Italy 0:05:19.760 --> 0:05:24.120 and other places. And Dr Argy's what are we learning about, 0:05:24.720 --> 0:05:27.560 especially as we think about the biggest cities in the 0:05:27.560 --> 0:05:29.839 country and you are there in Chicago one of them. 0:05:29.920 --> 0:05:33.839 You know, we've seen these restrictive measures, the essential shelter 0:05:33.920 --> 0:05:35.680 in place, even if we're not calling it that, in 0:05:35.760 --> 0:05:38.160 all these different places in California, here in New York, 0:05:38.480 --> 0:05:41.719 uh and also in Illinois, where you are. We're seeing 0:05:42.040 --> 0:05:45.599 other states take similar measures. What are we seeing in 0:05:45.680 --> 0:05:48.720 terms of the efficacy of that or when will we 0:05:48.800 --> 0:05:53.520 know how effective that is? Yeah, so it's it's hard 0:05:53.520 --> 0:05:57.080 to know exactly how soon because we're seeing varying levels 0:05:57.080 --> 0:05:59.840 they say of the whole shelter in place concept. But 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:04.120 certainly UM just urging people to social distance and to 0:06:04.240 --> 0:06:07.120 shelter in place, I think we can truly slow down 0:06:07.160 --> 0:06:10.680 the spread. UM. It may take still a week or 0:06:11.120 --> 0:06:14.760 more to really understand how that kind of impacts the 0:06:14.800 --> 0:06:18.279 next wave of cases and how much of an increase 0:06:18.360 --> 0:06:21.240 or increase we're seeing in terms of these having these 0:06:21.240 --> 0:06:23.279 measures in place and the impact in terms of the 0:06:23.320 --> 0:06:26.880 case counts. I do wonder about underserved populations and whether 0:06:26.960 --> 0:06:28.960 or not they're getting the necessary care and able to 0:06:29.000 --> 0:06:31.320 get out there. What are you seeing on that front 0:06:31.440 --> 0:06:33.560 or what are we doing to make sure that they 0:06:33.560 --> 0:06:37.320 are taking care of along with everybody else. Yeah, certainly 0:06:37.440 --> 0:06:41.400 we UM and Americas are concerned about low income, uninsured 0:06:41.400 --> 0:06:46.080 and underinsured individuals and community. We have clinics, four clinics 0:06:46.120 --> 0:06:49.720 here in Connecticut. I'm actually located in Connecticut where our 0:06:49.760 --> 0:06:52.599 America's headquarters is in UM and so we have four 0:06:52.640 --> 0:06:56.000 free clinics where we are serving low income, uninsured and 0:06:56.440 --> 0:07:00.400 under insured individuals UM and really trying to maintain primary 0:07:00.440 --> 0:07:04.080 care services as well. We have clinics in El Salvador 0:07:04.200 --> 0:07:07.320 as well as the community of Mumbai. And what we've 0:07:07.320 --> 0:07:10.000 seen in our previous experience with outbreaks is that while 0:07:10.040 --> 0:07:13.239 there is a lot of attention and resources put behind 0:07:13.320 --> 0:07:16.960 containment of UH the spread of infection, there's also a 0:07:17.000 --> 0:07:21.480 need for continuation of services, especially primary care services. We 0:07:21.520 --> 0:07:24.080 saw this in a BOLO where you know, people were 0:07:24.160 --> 0:07:28.000 dying of their chronic disease such as hypertension or diabetes 0:07:28.120 --> 0:07:31.000 because there weren't enough resources and access to services for 0:07:31.080 --> 0:07:34.440 their chronic care conditions. And so UM as an organization, 0:07:34.520 --> 0:07:37.320 we've really tried to, to the best of our ability, 0:07:37.440 --> 0:07:39.440 keeping in mind the safety of our health care workers 0:07:39.440 --> 0:07:42.440 on the front line, continue those primary care services in 0:07:42.480 --> 0:07:45.560 addition to the screening and referrals that we're doing for 0:07:45.720 --> 0:07:48.360 COVID ninet teams. All Right, we're gonna leave it there. 0:07:48.400 --> 0:07:50.640 Thank you so much for your time. Dr Julie Vargis 0:07:50.680 --> 0:07:53.640 is Chief Medical Officer for AmeriCares, joining us on the 0:07:53.640 --> 0:07:58.120 phone from Connecticut. Some good information there and a reminder 0:07:58.280 --> 0:08:00.880 that ultimately, Carol and Ute, we did something to this 0:08:00.920 --> 0:08:03.800 effect earlier the healthcare crisis. You know, we talk a 0:08:03.840 --> 0:08:07.360 lot about the markets in the financial world, but this 0:08:07.440 --> 0:08:10.000 is very very much a healthcare crisis and one that 0:08:10.680 --> 0:08:13.080 a lot of doctors are trying to deal with. Trick 0:08:13.080 --> 0:08:16.240 here and trick here. This is Bloomberg Business Week with 0:08:16.320 --> 0:08:20.440 Carol Masser and Jason Kelly on Bloomberg Radio. Let's get 0:08:20.480 --> 0:08:22.200 down to d C now. Josh wynd Grove is their 0:08:22.200 --> 0:08:26.760 White House correspondent for Bloomberg. Great story today on the terminal, 0:08:26.760 --> 0:08:30.600 as we mentioned about where the president's head maybe on 0:08:30.840 --> 0:08:33.960 this stay at home advice that we've so many of 0:08:34.040 --> 0:08:36.400 us have been given. Josh, great to have you back 0:08:36.400 --> 0:08:38.800 with Carol and myself. Tell us what the president is 0:08:38.800 --> 0:08:45.600 thinking right now. UM, it's hard to say the mind 0:08:46.480 --> 0:08:49.080 that there is some sort of way to have your 0:08:49.160 --> 0:08:52.800 cake and eat it too, that you can signal two 0:08:52.800 --> 0:08:58.160 Americans that you know, it's dawn again. We're getting through this. UM. 0:08:58.240 --> 0:09:01.600 You can start, you know, stepping back a bit from 0:09:01.640 --> 0:09:05.400 the measures that we've all started taking in the last while. UM, 0:09:05.400 --> 0:09:07.840 but health officials are going to push back on that 0:09:07.960 --> 0:09:10.360 and say we are not out of the woods yet. 0:09:10.440 --> 0:09:13.440 For instance, the caseloads are still rising. We have no 0:09:13.520 --> 0:09:16.480 idea when the when they will plateau in terms of 0:09:16.520 --> 0:09:20.840 new cases. The deaths, of course continue to rise. America 0:09:20.920 --> 0:09:24.079 has a shortage of testing and of medical supplies to 0:09:24.160 --> 0:09:28.240 treat it, everything from masks to hospital beds and ventilators, 0:09:28.280 --> 0:09:31.640 and so there's a lot of uh, you know, clouds 0:09:31.640 --> 0:09:33.760 on the horizon, and it would be it seems like 0:09:33.760 --> 0:09:36.320 a weird time for him to be preparing to sort 0:09:36.320 --> 0:09:39.719 of declare victory and start coming back towards the more 0:09:39.800 --> 0:09:41.800 normal life. Yeah, safe to say that. I think most 0:09:41.840 --> 0:09:44.320 people believe that. To josh Um that all of a sudden, 0:09:44.480 --> 0:09:47.680 that's that's kind of a thinking. I think crucial to this, 0:09:47.920 --> 0:09:50.680 right is that health side of the story, in that 0:09:51.360 --> 0:09:54.440 you know, if you've had the virus, you know, don't 0:09:54.440 --> 0:09:55.920 we need to have some testing to see if you 0:09:56.120 --> 0:09:58.040 build up some immunity to it so that you can 0:09:58.040 --> 0:10:00.040 go back. Because I think the fear is all so 0:10:00.120 --> 0:10:01.920 I feel like we were talking so much last week 0:10:01.960 --> 0:10:04.560 about the second wave. As we start to go back, 0:10:04.640 --> 0:10:07.840 I think there's been some concerns about that happening in China, uh, 0:10:07.880 --> 0:10:12.600 and elsewhere. So are we thinking it all about that? 0:10:14.160 --> 0:10:17.400 It's a good question. I mean not really, because we 0:10:17.440 --> 0:10:21.640 don't really have the capacity to test people in that regard. 0:10:21.760 --> 0:10:24.800 I mean, you know, like I like to think of 0:10:24.840 --> 0:10:27.040 like I want to think of workspaces. Let's think of 0:10:27.080 --> 0:10:29.559 like the NBA, right like if they wanted to start 0:10:29.559 --> 0:10:32.959 playing basketball again, they would have to test every team 0:10:33.040 --> 0:10:36.079 and the and the referees and coaches every game. And 0:10:36.160 --> 0:10:38.000 they just don't. They just don't have that. And so 0:10:38.080 --> 0:10:40.120 you start to scale that, and that's even what what 0:10:40.120 --> 0:10:42.520 would that be? Thirty people? Maybe? You know, it was 0:10:42.559 --> 0:10:44.520 so bad bare minimum to run a game in an 0:10:44.520 --> 0:10:47.520 EFT the arena. Scale that to look a big company, 0:10:48.559 --> 0:10:51.920 big employer, what do you do right? One person coming 0:10:51.960 --> 0:10:56.120 back could potentially carry it when you know, you just you, 0:10:56.120 --> 0:10:58.439 you have no idea. So I think Trump there is 0:10:58.480 --> 0:11:01.319 a clear movement in the last twenty four hours among 0:11:01.720 --> 0:11:05.320 Trump and the people he listens to to say that 0:11:05.360 --> 0:11:08.400 the economy can't stand to be on the mat all 0:11:08.440 --> 0:11:11.720 that longer. You've got to give some sort of signal, 0:11:11.800 --> 0:11:14.040 even if it is only a signal that things will 0:11:14.080 --> 0:11:17.880 start moving back to normal life at some point. Uh, 0:11:17.880 --> 0:11:20.520 and the inflection point to do that is in one week. 0:11:20.559 --> 0:11:23.680 That's when Trump's fifteen days tops to stop the spread 0:11:23.840 --> 0:11:28.280 strategy expires next Monday or so. Um. But health officials say, look, 0:11:28.559 --> 0:11:31.880 if we don't have a handle on the upbreak, reopening 0:11:31.880 --> 0:11:34.200 things is only going to make it worse. Right. Well, 0:11:34.240 --> 0:11:37.880 and it's clear and and this has been not I 0:11:37.880 --> 0:11:39.840 was gonna say it's been nuanced. It actually hasn't been 0:11:39.880 --> 0:11:41.719 that nuance. You know when you see Dr Fauci and 0:11:41.800 --> 0:11:44.840 Dr Burke's up there, you know, sort of gently correcting 0:11:44.880 --> 0:11:49.760 the record sometimes at these briefings. And you know, it's interesting, 0:11:49.840 --> 0:11:52.560 Joshua I read something this morning that essentially said, part 0:11:52.600 --> 0:11:55.880 of this is because these briefings every day have become 0:11:56.760 --> 0:12:01.440 I dare say political, to to a large extent, confrontational 0:12:01.520 --> 0:12:06.160 with with the media. They are not necessarily just delivering 0:12:06.320 --> 0:12:13.280 the latest and greatest when it comes to the medical outlook. Right. Um, yeah, 0:12:14.200 --> 0:12:17.360 they're they're the length of like an eighties comedy. Every day. 0:12:17.400 --> 0:12:20.440 I mean, we're there forever um tonight, god knows how 0:12:20.440 --> 0:12:23.160 long it will last. We'll see. Um. But you know, 0:12:23.840 --> 0:12:25.760 for media, the White House doesn't provide a lot of 0:12:25.760 --> 0:12:29.720 information that briefing is the only way to ask basic 0:12:29.840 --> 0:12:33.080 things like how many masks do we have? What is 0:12:33.120 --> 0:12:36.640 the caseload? Do we have ventilators? Arguably we shouldn't be 0:12:36.679 --> 0:12:41.040 wasting national airtime asking the president for the numbers themselves, 0:12:41.320 --> 0:12:43.640 but you know, this is our only opportunity to So, 0:12:43.880 --> 0:12:46.120 you know, I think Trump is out there every day. 0:12:46.280 --> 0:12:49.360 He's he's trying to look like he's leading on that. 0:12:49.559 --> 0:12:53.800 His his sort of orbit is touting elevated approval numbers 0:12:53.800 --> 0:12:56.200 and is handling of this. But we are not out 0:12:56.240 --> 0:13:01.960 of the woods yet. Absolutely. Yeah, no, that's for sure. Um, Josh, 0:13:02.200 --> 0:13:05.120 really appreciate all your efforts and all your reporting, and 0:13:05.160 --> 0:13:07.960 thanks for finding time for us. Josh wynd Grove joining 0:13:08.040 --> 0:13:12.400 us from Washington, one of the most read and one 0:13:12.400 --> 0:13:15.320 of the most read guys. It's just true. Joe, No Sarah, 0:13:15.320 --> 0:13:18.840 he joins us on the phone from Southampton. We're gonna 0:13:18.840 --> 0:13:20.800 set that aside for a second, because then we would 0:13:20.840 --> 0:13:22.720 just go down the rabbit hole of the shrink next door, 0:13:22.760 --> 0:13:26.600 and we'll save that for another day. Joe. Joe Webber 0:13:26.679 --> 0:13:30.640 also with us. Uh, he is in Brooklyn. That's where 0:13:30.679 --> 0:13:33.320 we're finding him these days. So no, Sarah, I want 0:13:33.360 --> 0:13:37.240 to start with you, Uh, this is a provocative look 0:13:37.280 --> 0:13:41.120 to some extent about what could happen uh down the 0:13:41.160 --> 0:13:46.560 line as it relates to vaccines and basically forcing people 0:13:47.000 --> 0:13:49.240 are forcing an issue. I should say, tell us what 0:13:49.320 --> 0:13:53.200 you found. Well, well, I just I went back and 0:13:53.240 --> 0:13:58.120 looked at what happened, um during swine flu. That was 0:13:58.160 --> 0:14:02.120 that was my idea. Uh, you know, excuse me, what 0:14:02.120 --> 0:14:04.440 what sort of measures were there were state governments able 0:14:04.480 --> 0:14:07.680 to take, um to to kind of get people past that. 0:14:08.480 --> 0:14:10.880 And one of the things that I discovered was that 0:14:10.960 --> 0:14:13.000 in the state of New York, the health the head 0:14:13.000 --> 0:14:16.480 of the health department had ordered UM all health care 0:14:16.520 --> 0:14:21.320 workers to take the vaccine under the threat of being 0:14:21.360 --> 0:14:24.040 fired if they didn't do it by you know, like 0:14:24.120 --> 0:14:25.480 they were given like a month and a half to 0:14:25.520 --> 0:14:29.680 do it. And what happened was, um, you know, they 0:14:29.680 --> 0:14:34.640 got sued by some uh by some nurses and by 0:14:34.760 --> 0:14:41.600 UM a union, a workers union, and UM the judge 0:14:41.720 --> 0:14:44.280 ordered to stay. So in other words, that the judge said, 0:14:44.280 --> 0:14:46.480 you can't do this, and I'll you know, then I'll 0:14:46.560 --> 0:14:49.480 rule on the merriats later and and in the meantime, 0:14:49.560 --> 0:14:51.920 the vaccine turned out to be in such short supply 0:14:53.400 --> 0:14:56.800 that the governor, Governor Patterson at the time, decided it 0:14:56.840 --> 0:14:59.160 was pointless to try and enforce this, and so they 0:14:59.240 --> 0:15:03.240 just kind of gave up. So what it means is 0:15:03.320 --> 0:15:08.320 that even when there is a vaccine, we really don't 0:15:08.400 --> 0:15:14.520 know legally what right people and particularly health workers are 0:15:14.560 --> 0:15:17.600 going to have in dealing with this. And I can 0:15:17.680 --> 0:15:20.640 guarantee you that if somebody tries to enforce a vaccine 0:15:21.480 --> 0:15:25.520 with the anti vax movement being what it is today, uh, 0:15:25.600 --> 0:15:27.840 there will be an uproar and there will be a 0:15:27.960 --> 0:15:35.720 lot of litigates. Come on, come on, Well, that's why Joe, 0:15:35.760 --> 0:15:37.520 what was the name of the case, because it is 0:15:37.560 --> 0:15:42.440 one that I think is going to be in the headlines. Um, 0:15:42.480 --> 0:15:46.280 if and when there's a vaccine, you would have to 0:15:46.320 --> 0:15:50.840 ask me that's Binian Binian versus danged. And what I 0:15:50.920 --> 0:15:55.120 what I actually thought, what I thought was remarkable about 0:15:55.200 --> 0:15:58.840 this little bit of slicing on Joe's part, was that 0:15:58.880 --> 0:16:02.400 we've actually been down this road before, right Like we've 0:16:02.440 --> 0:16:06.120 been We've seen like the swine swine flu at the 0:16:06.160 --> 0:16:08.800 time that was a pandemic and there were a lot 0:16:08.880 --> 0:16:12.520 of people who got sick. And here we were racing out. 0:16:12.600 --> 0:16:16.400 Um uh, you know, a vaccine. And one of the 0:16:16.440 --> 0:16:18.920 elements that the I think is important to keep in 0:16:18.960 --> 0:16:21.160 mind here was that the healthcare workers said, we don't 0:16:21.160 --> 0:16:23.840 want to be giddap in this case. And that was 0:16:23.880 --> 0:16:26.360 actually one of the one of the things that the 0:16:26.440 --> 0:16:30.840 judge decided when he decided on this day. Um So 0:16:31.040 --> 0:16:33.040 when you kind of when you when you think about this, 0:16:33.160 --> 0:16:36.520 like New York State was where this case was centered, 0:16:37.280 --> 0:16:40.280 um and and it will be probably a state issue 0:16:40.320 --> 0:16:44.480 before it's anything else. Is that not? Right? Without without question, 0:16:44.600 --> 0:16:47.520 it will, especially given how lacks the federal government has 0:16:47.560 --> 0:16:50.520 been dealing with this pandemic, it will definitely be a 0:16:50.560 --> 0:16:53.360 state issue. You can definitely see Cuomo saying you have 0:16:53.480 --> 0:16:57.480 to do this, and you can definitely see enormous pushbacks 0:16:57.480 --> 0:16:59.840 from um and and and by the way, the same 0:17:00.160 --> 0:17:02.560 is happening here in terms of the vaccine itself. You know, 0:17:02.640 --> 0:17:04.760 everybody's talking about we got a rush the vaccine out, 0:17:04.760 --> 0:17:06.919 We got a rush the vaccine out. Right, you usually 0:17:06.920 --> 0:17:10.639 take a year and a half to two years, right, exactly. Well, 0:17:10.680 --> 0:17:12.879 and I also think about the bigger worker issue, especially 0:17:12.960 --> 0:17:15.120 with some of the conversation. You know that we heard 0:17:15.160 --> 0:17:18.560 just from our Josh Wing Grove who covers the White 0:17:18.560 --> 0:17:21.200 House and Washington. You know about the President talking already 0:17:21.200 --> 0:17:23.960 about people workers getting back to work, and you do wonder, 0:17:24.680 --> 0:17:26.320 you know, could we get to a point where, Okay, 0:17:26.320 --> 0:17:27.320 if you want to go back to work, if you 0:17:27.359 --> 0:17:29.239 get this vaccine, and if you don't take it, like, 0:17:29.320 --> 0:17:34.240 it just opens up all these weird questions. Joe, right, right, absolutely, 0:17:34.280 --> 0:17:37.320 and that's true that you know there's another vaccine. Uh, 0:17:37.720 --> 0:17:41.080 people who kind of hold, excuse me, another test. It's 0:17:41.119 --> 0:17:44.560 an antibody test. It's supposed to be fairly closed. And 0:17:44.600 --> 0:17:48.360 the importance of the antibody test is that it can 0:17:48.400 --> 0:17:54.080 tell you if you're immune. So so you can definitely 0:17:54.119 --> 0:17:56.720 see a situation where the government says, you have to 0:17:56.760 --> 0:18:01.000 take this antibody test because we have to know whether 0:18:01.080 --> 0:18:03.320 you are immune. And if you're immune, you gotta go 0:18:03.359 --> 0:18:05.280 back to work. Well, you gotta go. You know, you've 0:18:05.280 --> 0:18:08.240 got to be part of the economy again. So you know, 0:18:08.400 --> 0:18:10.199 you could see the same set of issues. It's not 0:18:10.280 --> 0:18:12.040 quite the same as a vaccine, but you could definitely 0:18:12.080 --> 0:18:15.240 see the same set of issues. They are well, and guys, 0:18:15.359 --> 0:18:17.600 I do wonder, and Joe, I would love for you 0:18:17.640 --> 0:18:19.800 to weigh on this as well. I mean, we are 0:18:19.920 --> 0:18:23.760 in this moment where it feels like in the name 0:18:23.880 --> 0:18:27.199 of public health, public safety, our own and those of 0:18:27.240 --> 0:18:30.919 our communities and whatnot. Maybe you know, we're starting to 0:18:31.000 --> 0:18:35.560 think about some very basic you know, rights and what 0:18:35.640 --> 0:18:39.440 we can and can't do in sort of a different way. 0:18:39.600 --> 0:18:42.760 And you know, if you spend too long on Twitter, 0:18:42.840 --> 0:18:45.600 you can go down some rabbit holes about what the 0:18:45.640 --> 0:18:48.800 government can and can't do here. Right, well, you know 0:18:49.200 --> 0:18:51.760 make sense. I think I think about like nine eleven, right, 0:18:51.800 --> 0:18:54.240 and you think about what a tales beIN um that 0:18:54.320 --> 0:18:57.960 put our society for for you know, a decade plus 0:18:57.960 --> 0:19:01.280 in terms of civil liberties, and didn't to some extent 0:19:01.440 --> 0:19:04.719 like we might be terrunning a similar phase here which 0:19:04.760 --> 0:19:10.359 will test our social fabric. And I wanted to go 0:19:10.400 --> 0:19:11.960 ahead to come at it from a different from a 0:19:11.960 --> 0:19:15.440 different angle. You know, when the polio virus came out, 0:19:16.000 --> 0:19:18.080 I was a little kid, and I remember my mother 0:19:18.200 --> 0:19:20.679 takes you to get a polio shot and that was 0:19:20.760 --> 0:19:24.000 not that was not that was mandatory. Everybody in the 0:19:24.000 --> 0:19:26.680 country had to take a polo shot. Nobody complained about 0:19:26.720 --> 0:19:30.600 it because everybody was so terrified, terrified about polio. And 0:19:30.680 --> 0:19:32.919 so what I think is that we could see an 0:19:32.920 --> 0:19:35.520 era when we go back to that where if this 0:19:35.680 --> 0:19:40.160 virus is bad enough, you could see the court upholding 0:19:41.680 --> 0:19:44.119 a government saying you have to do this for the 0:19:44.160 --> 0:19:46.760 greater good. And I feel like the greater good is 0:19:46.800 --> 0:19:49.280 something that's kind of been forgotten the last couple of decades. 0:19:49.440 --> 0:19:54.439 And you know, however you feel about mandatory vaccines working 0:19:54.480 --> 0:19:56.520 on behalf of the greater good is something that society 0:19:56.560 --> 0:20:00.560 really needs to recaptured. No, it's a eight point and 0:20:00.880 --> 0:20:04.679 certainly it's something that we have been talking more and 0:20:04.720 --> 0:20:08.159 more about. I mean social distancing really only what you know, 0:20:08.200 --> 0:20:11.200 if like only a couple of people are social distancing themselves, 0:20:11.200 --> 0:20:14.000 then it really it doesn't work so well, all right, 0:20:14.080 --> 0:20:16.520 Jonah Sarah always thought provocative. Thank you so much. Johning 0:20:16.560 --> 0:20:19.560 us on the phone from Southampton, New York. Joe Webber 0:20:19.640 --> 0:20:23.560 joining us on the phone from Brooklyn. This is Bloomberg 0:20:23.600 --> 0:20:28.480 Business Week with Carol Messer and Jason Kelly on Bloomberg Radio. Now. 0:20:28.480 --> 0:20:31.720 We often talk about this with our Andy Brown, about 0:20:31.720 --> 0:20:34.560 globalization and the factors that have been shipping away at it. 0:20:35.119 --> 0:20:37.800 One factor to consider is the virus and how it 0:20:37.880 --> 0:20:41.480 might ultimately kill globalization. Andy Brown is Bloomberg New Economy 0:20:41.600 --> 0:20:45.000 editorial director. He's on the phone in New Hampshire. Andy, 0:20:45.040 --> 0:20:46.920 good to have you back with us. First of all, 0:20:47.359 --> 0:20:51.960 you guys all doing okay, we're doing great up here 0:20:52.040 --> 0:20:55.399 in uh in New Hampshire. Actually the terrific part of 0:20:55.440 --> 0:20:59.200 the US to be in right now. Yeah, we'll tell 0:20:59.280 --> 0:21:01.199 us a little bit about because as we watch the 0:21:01.200 --> 0:21:05.360 rest of the world. Um, you know, it's really certainly 0:21:05.400 --> 0:21:08.600 tough going. You have talked to us in the past 0:21:08.760 --> 0:21:11.320 about the things that are really chipping away at globalization, 0:21:11.800 --> 0:21:15.360 this virus. We have seen a lot of fighting. Certainly 0:21:15.400 --> 0:21:18.840 it feels like our tensions between the US and China 0:21:18.920 --> 0:21:21.719 as a result of you know, kind of finger pointing 0:21:21.760 --> 0:21:24.240 at who cost h Um talked to us though about 0:21:24.280 --> 0:21:29.000 the broader implications potentially for globalization. Yeah. So so you know, 0:21:29.040 --> 0:21:33.399 the way I look at it is, you know, ultimately globalization, 0:21:34.440 --> 0:21:40.240 economic globalization depends on trust that you know, essentially, you've 0:21:40.280 --> 0:21:44.800 got these incredibly long and complex supply chains, many of 0:21:44.840 --> 0:21:49.760 them running through China, and companies and countries have got 0:21:49.760 --> 0:21:54.919 to believe in the integrity of those chains. Um, and 0:21:54.960 --> 0:21:58.679 they haven't really been tested in the last several decades 0:21:59.000 --> 0:22:01.719 that much. I mean, you had an episodes, for instance, 0:22:01.720 --> 0:22:04.879 in two thousand and eleven, you had floods in Thailand, 0:22:05.040 --> 0:22:08.440 you had an earthquake and tsunami in Japan, and parts 0:22:08.440 --> 0:22:12.520 of the electronic supply chain came down. And now you 0:22:12.640 --> 0:22:18.639 have massive global failures of supply chains. And you know, 0:22:18.720 --> 0:22:23.879 not just that, you have you know this uh, simultaneous 0:22:23.920 --> 0:22:30.000 erosion of trust between the big actors in the globalization dramas. 0:22:30.040 --> 0:22:35.000 So you know, uh, most notably uh and most disastrously 0:22:35.160 --> 0:22:39.280 right now between the US and China. And you know, uh, 0:22:39.520 --> 0:22:44.760 we're seeing that in medicines, in pharmaceuticals, where it's become 0:22:44.800 --> 0:22:49.200 clear that the US economy is highly dependent and many 0:22:49.240 --> 0:22:55.119