WEBVTT - How to Be Antiracist 0:00:11.880 --> 0:00:15.320 Welcome to Woke af with me Danielle Moody. The last 0:00:15.360 --> 0:00:18.880 few months have seen an explosion of performative outrage from 0:00:18.920 --> 0:00:22.680 conservative media over what they are calling critical race theory. 0:00:22.960 --> 0:00:26.720 While critical race theory is indeed a decades old academic movement, 0:00:27.040 --> 0:00:30.040 the term has recently been weaponized by the right to 0:00:30.080 --> 0:00:34.600 dismiss any honest analysis of America's racist foundation that they 0:00:34.680 --> 0:00:38.800 want to whitewash or just completely ignore. And yet right 0:00:38.840 --> 0:00:41.720 now can be a more perfect time to teach Americans 0:00:41.720 --> 0:00:44.400 about the history of racism and how we can all 0:00:44.479 --> 0:00:47.199 do a better job of combating it in our society, 0:00:47.400 --> 0:00:51.640 which of course is why conservatives both protest so much. 0:00:51.960 --> 0:00:55.160 White people love talking about how they're not racist. But 0:00:55.200 --> 0:00:57.360 what if I told you it's not enough to simply 0:00:57.440 --> 0:01:00.640 not be racist, that you must, in fact be actively 0:01:00.840 --> 0:01:04.680 anti racist. That is the argument made by Abram X. Kendy, 0:01:04.840 --> 0:01:07.920 director of the Center for Anti Racist Research at Boston 0:01:08.040 --> 0:01:11.720 University and the author of the book appropriately titled How 0:01:11.760 --> 0:01:15.160 to Be Anti Racist. He also has a new podcast 0:01:15.200 --> 0:01:18.680 simply titled Be Anti Racist, and he joined me on 0:01:18.720 --> 0:01:21.639 my podcast last week, which you can support right now 0:01:21.800 --> 0:01:24.920 at Patreon dot com, Slash woke af to talk all 0:01:24.959 --> 0:01:27.560 about anti racism and the myriad of ways he is 0:01:27.560 --> 0:01:34.640 spreading the good word about this necessary practice. Ibram, We're 0:01:34.720 --> 0:01:40.039 at a time in our country following the murder that 0:01:40.080 --> 0:01:44.720 we all witnessed of George Floyd, the murders of Brianna Taylor, 0:01:44.880 --> 0:01:48.040 of Ahmad Aubrey, the list goes on and on and on. 0:01:48.560 --> 0:01:55.920 Twenty twenty was a cataclysm of events around race racism. 0:01:56.360 --> 0:01:59.880 I mean, we saw phone calls to the police for 0:02:00.080 --> 0:02:03.360 people that are bird watching. We saw you know so 0:02:03.440 --> 0:02:07.680 much and it seems like it's unrelenting. How do you 0:02:08.840 --> 0:02:13.119 describe your work? And then the necessity not to just 0:02:13.280 --> 0:02:18.840 say I'm not racist, but to actively be anti racist? 0:02:19.360 --> 0:02:22.480 What does that mean to you and why at this 0:02:23.120 --> 0:02:27.080 important point I believe in our history, is it necessary 0:02:27.160 --> 0:02:30.840 that we change the narrative from I'm not racist to 0:02:31.040 --> 0:02:36.480 actively being anti racist. Well, first, I'm happy that we're 0:02:36.520 --> 0:02:40.359 able to have this conversation and thank you for bringing 0:02:40.360 --> 0:02:45.000 me onto the onto your show. I think it's important 0:02:45.000 --> 0:02:49.639 for us to to start from a basic truth, and 0:02:49.800 --> 0:02:53.800 it's a basic truth that is under attack, just like 0:02:53.919 --> 0:02:58.840 truth itself right now. And that basic truth is that 0:02:58.880 --> 0:03:04.799 we live in a nation of racial disparities and inequities, 0:03:04.840 --> 0:03:08.160 and injustice is all around us. Whether it's Black people 0:03:08.240 --> 0:03:13.120 being disproportionately incarcerated, whether that's Native ping Native people being 0:03:13.639 --> 0:03:17.680 disproportionately killed from COVID nineteen, whether that's you know, black 0:03:17.720 --> 0:03:22.040 women dying at higher rates from pregnancy than than than 0:03:22.160 --> 0:03:27.120 white women, whether that's you know, Latdex people being disproportionately impoverished, 0:03:27.160 --> 0:03:32.040 and on and on and so the status quo is 0:03:32.160 --> 0:03:38.240 racial inequity. And the fundamental question of our time is 0:03:38.280 --> 0:03:44.600 why do these inequities exist? And there's two answers. One 0:03:44.640 --> 0:03:50.400 answer is because of racism, systemical structural racism. The other 0:03:50.480 --> 0:03:54.040 answer is because there's something wrong with those people on 0:03:54.120 --> 0:03:59.200 the dying or lower end. And and so, if the 0:03:59.280 --> 0:04:04.960 status quo is inequity, and the cause of that inequity 0:04:05.280 --> 0:04:09.920 is racism, to do nothing in the face of a 0:04:10.000 --> 0:04:13.920 status quo is to allow that status quo to persist, 0:04:14.800 --> 0:04:19.000 and so literally, to not do anything while Black people 0:04:19.040 --> 0:04:22.760 are being enslaved, to not do anything, while while Native 0:04:22.800 --> 0:04:27.839 folks are being mass murdered, to not do anything, while 0:04:28.240 --> 0:04:30.560 that the NUX people are being mass supported, what's going 0:04:30.640 --> 0:04:33.760 to happen? It's going to only continue right and and 0:04:34.160 --> 0:04:40.600 indeed slaveholders wanted people in Chicago at Boston where I lived, 0:04:40.680 --> 0:04:44.080 to do nothing, because that to do nothing was a 0:04:44.160 --> 0:04:47.760 form of complicity. And that's one of the things. So 0:04:47.800 --> 0:04:50.480 I've been trying to get the American people and really 0:04:50.520 --> 0:04:54.360 people around the world to realize that there's really only 0:04:54.400 --> 0:04:58.440 two options. You know, Either we're being racist by allowing 0:04:59.120 --> 0:05:04.160 the status quote to persist by our active champion of it, 0:05:04.360 --> 0:05:07.400 or by doing nothing in the face of it, or 0:05:07.640 --> 0:05:12.120 we are actively challenging racism and thereby being anti racist. 0:05:13.800 --> 0:05:19.400 You know, I think that where I find issue, where 0:05:19.400 --> 0:05:22.360 I find myself some days, where it feels like I'm 0:05:22.400 --> 0:05:28.640 screaming into the ether, is that we are still I 0:05:28.720 --> 0:05:32.040 feel at a point where we are trying to convince 0:05:32.640 --> 0:05:37.560 white Americans that racism actually exists. That we are still 0:05:37.600 --> 0:05:44.000 at a point where it took watching a black man 0:05:44.839 --> 0:05:48.000 have the life squeezed out of him for nine minutes 0:05:48.040 --> 0:05:53.320 in twenty nine seconds in public and broad daylight for 0:05:53.440 --> 0:05:58.520 folks in every state of this country to actively protest 0:05:59.400 --> 0:06:02.799 for black lives and then understand that by the time 0:06:02.800 --> 0:06:06.360 the fall came, steam had run out and the polls 0:06:06.440 --> 0:06:10.200 had started to change in terms of where people were falling, 0:06:10.240 --> 0:06:14.480 where white people were falling on their commitment to really 0:06:14.800 --> 0:06:18.880 not just articulating that black lives matter, but actively doing 0:06:18.920 --> 0:06:22.960 something to say that black lives matter. We just this 0:06:23.200 --> 0:06:30.840 past this month recognize the hundred year anniversary remembrance of 0:06:30.880 --> 0:06:35.000 the massacre that happened in Tulsa, and it was considered 0:06:36.480 --> 0:06:40.520 an extraordinary feat for the first president of the United 0:06:40.560 --> 0:06:44.080 States to actually visit Tulsa and to call it what 0:06:44.120 --> 0:06:47.560 it was, a massacre and not a riot. So if 0:06:47.640 --> 0:06:50.800 we are still I mean, it was a hundred years 0:06:50.839 --> 0:06:53.479 and we're still just getting to a place where a 0:06:53.520 --> 0:06:56.320 majority of people in this country didn't even know that 0:06:56.320 --> 0:06:58.560 that occurred. And not only that that occurred, but that 0:06:59.320 --> 0:07:03.080 wasn't in an emily. So if all of these things 0:07:03.120 --> 0:07:05.839 are true, it's like, and we're still at this point 0:07:05.839 --> 0:07:11.160 of convincing you know, I'm just wondering how we get 0:07:11.200 --> 0:07:15.760 to a place where we're actively working against this system 0:07:15.840 --> 0:07:18.960 when I have to make you believe that the system 0:07:19.200 --> 0:07:23.640 actually exists and it was meant to purposefully work against 0:07:23.680 --> 0:07:29.160 marginalized people. That's the fundamental challenge. And let me say, 0:07:29.520 --> 0:07:37.760 I think not to overly generalize white people. But there 0:07:38.920 --> 0:07:44.600 I suspect there were some white people who saw this 0:07:45.000 --> 0:07:49.920 horrific murder of George Floyd on their laptops, you know, 0:07:50.000 --> 0:07:53.200 on their phones, like like black folks did, and like 0:07:53.240 --> 0:07:59.880 other folks did, and they felt horrible. Some of them 0:08:00.040 --> 0:08:06.680 they have even felt guilty. They heard about a nearby demonstration, 0:08:07.760 --> 0:08:12.640 and they decided to go to that local demonstration, because indeed, 0:08:12.640 --> 0:08:16.680 there was demonstrations against police brutality and racism in almost 0:08:16.760 --> 0:08:20.280 every county in this country. And so then they went 0:08:20.320 --> 0:08:27.000 to that demonstration, and that demonstration had speakers, had had 0:08:27.160 --> 0:08:34.200 signs that were you know that, and the experience, you know, 0:08:34.880 --> 0:08:40.240 was one that that allowed them to feel better. So 0:08:40.280 --> 0:08:43.160 then they went home and you know, the only thing 0:08:43.160 --> 0:08:47.280 that changed were their feelings. And and and then you 0:08:47.320 --> 0:08:55.000 had other white folks who were mass and have been 0:08:55.040 --> 0:09:01.920 mass manipulated by by Trump and other Republicans and even 0:09:01.920 --> 0:09:07.200 other you know, Democrats really and and it sort of 0:09:07.240 --> 0:09:08.800 causes me to think, I don't know if you remember 0:09:08.920 --> 0:09:11.760 one of Malcolm X's great speeches when he was talking 0:09:11.800 --> 0:09:16.520 to black folks and he was like, you know who 0:09:16.520 --> 0:09:20.600 taught you to hate yourself? Yes, you've been hoodwinked you've 0:09:20.640 --> 0:09:24.160 been had, You've been left right. In other words, you 0:09:24.160 --> 0:09:29.160 know you've had you know, you had the forces of racism, 0:09:29.240 --> 0:09:32.800 the very powerful forces of racism. You know, some very 0:09:32.880 --> 0:09:37.560 powerful officials who with a growing awareness among white people 0:09:38.400 --> 0:09:43.480 that racist power, racist policies and practices, that structural racism 0:09:43.559 --> 0:09:46.480 was a problem. They were like, WHOA, people are going 0:09:46.559 --> 0:09:50.760 to start looking at us, in our policies, in our 0:09:50.840 --> 0:09:54.000 rhetoric as the problem. No, no, no no, I need to 0:09:54.040 --> 0:09:56.880 clap back and say, no, no, no, we are not 0:09:56.920 --> 0:10:02.000 the problem. Voters. Oppression policies aren't the problem. The ability 0:10:02.400 --> 0:10:06.839 for police officers to essentially, uh you know, execute people 0:10:06.840 --> 0:10:10.400 out will with no accountability based on bills that I 0:10:10.520 --> 0:10:15.880 passed are not the problem. Those people who are demonstrating 0:10:15.920 --> 0:10:20.559 against racism or the real problem. Those black people who 0:10:20.640 --> 0:10:25.280 are describing white people and other people as racist are 0:10:25.320 --> 0:10:29.480 the real problem. And and so then people by the 0:10:29.600 --> 0:10:31.839 end of the summer, as you stated, and certainly by 0:10:31.840 --> 0:10:34.959 this time, we're like, WHOA, Well, maybe people are like 0:10:35.040 --> 0:10:41.760 George Floyd, we're not the victims. Maybe they are the problem. 0:10:41.800 --> 0:10:43.640 And and so now we're in this period in which 0:10:43.640 --> 0:10:46.160 we're still arguing what is the problem. Is it systemic 0:10:46.320 --> 0:10:50.840 racism or the people who are who are identifying systemic 0:10:50.920 --> 0:10:53.240 racism as the problem. And so you've had so many 0:10:53.280 --> 0:10:59.080 Americans that have been misled into believing Nicolehennah Jones is 0:10:59.080 --> 0:11:02.400 the problem as opposed to the problems she pointed out 0:11:02.440 --> 0:11:06.440 in our Historical Memory over sixteen nineteen in slavery, we 0:11:06.600 --> 0:11:11.200 always say to ourselves, right, and that racism will die 0:11:11.240 --> 0:11:15.360 out right. I can't tell you how many times over 0:11:15.400 --> 0:11:18.440 the course of my life that I've heard that, you know, 0:11:18.480 --> 0:11:23.560 when the old racist die, right, everything everything, some type 0:11:23.559 --> 0:11:28.319 of utopia is going to descend on America. And I 0:11:28.720 --> 0:11:30.760 say this, I'm okaf all the time because I'm a 0:11:30.760 --> 0:11:35.040 former educator for early childhood education, and one of the 0:11:35.080 --> 0:11:38.520 reasons I went into education was for the sheer fact 0:11:38.760 --> 0:11:42.560 that our public education system is the biggest perpetuator of 0:11:42.640 --> 0:11:48.560 white supremacy. That it is not. It is not a marker, 0:11:48.640 --> 0:11:52.760 a genetic marker that has passed down right through family. 0:11:52.800 --> 0:11:57.240 It is something that is actively taught. We actively decide 0:11:57.320 --> 0:12:00.760 who the classics are, right, who the evaders are, who 0:12:00.760 --> 0:12:03.079 the leaders should be. And so when I see this 0:12:03.160 --> 0:12:08.199 pushback and not pushback, an essential decimation of the sixteen 0:12:08.280 --> 0:12:13.040 nineteen project being taught in schools. People be threatening to 0:12:13.200 --> 0:12:16.480 lose funding if you decide, if you even utter the word, 0:12:17.080 --> 0:12:19.439 utter the phrase sixteen nineteen project, that they are going 0:12:19.480 --> 0:12:24.240 to take away funding from schools. I just have to 0:12:24.280 --> 0:12:28.240 ask you, like, where do you go from there? If 0:12:28.400 --> 0:12:33.000 we're not if we can't even agree upon the truth, 0:12:33.120 --> 0:12:36.080 if we can't even agree upon the fact that you know, 0:12:36.280 --> 0:12:39.800 when when Joe Biden was in Tulsa, he said in 0:12:39.840 --> 0:12:44.640 his speech, you know, great nations face their dark their 0:12:44.760 --> 0:12:48.280 dark periods, right, they don't try and run away from it. 0:12:49.120 --> 0:12:53.280 And yet this nation has consistently run away from and 0:12:53.400 --> 0:12:56.840 denied and gas lit the population into believing that it 0:12:56.880 --> 0:13:00.360 doesn't exist, that there is no problem. And so how 0:13:00.400 --> 0:13:03.240 do you how do you grow from there? How do 0:13:03.280 --> 0:13:07.400 you activate from there? When the purpose of denying this 0:13:07.480 --> 0:13:10.800 body of work and just any critical conversations around race 0:13:11.240 --> 0:13:16.840 are to make white kids continue to be force fed 0:13:16.920 --> 0:13:24.000 the lie of American exceptionalism. That is just so important 0:13:24.000 --> 0:13:26.520 And that's the type of question we should be asking 0:13:26.640 --> 0:13:31.439 and thinking about because you know, even like even the 0:13:31.559 --> 0:13:37.400 term woke itself, people are viewing it in a so 0:13:37.440 --> 0:13:43.560 sort of pejorative sense when you know, last I checked, 0:13:43.920 --> 0:13:47.440 I think it's important for human beings to walk through 0:13:47.480 --> 0:13:53.640 life awake. What what what what white? What racist ideas do? What? 0:13:53.640 --> 0:13:57.920 What teaching on white supremacy does two white children, let 0:13:57.920 --> 0:14:01.720 alone children of color everyone. What it does to white 0:14:01.800 --> 0:14:07.319 children is it creates a scenario which they walk through 0:14:07.520 --> 0:14:11.880 life asleep. You know, because if you, you know, if 0:14:11.920 --> 0:14:16.920 you're an American today saying things like systemic racism doesn't exist, 0:14:17.960 --> 0:14:23.920 then what you, as a white American uh, perceived is 0:14:23.960 --> 0:14:27.720 that the cause of all these racial inequities and disparities 0:14:27.720 --> 0:14:30.640 that we talked about earlier is not the result of 0:14:30.680 --> 0:14:36.080 systemic racism, and it must be because of the inferiorities 0:14:36.080 --> 0:14:38.960 of superiorities of racial groups. So you walk through life 0:14:40.960 --> 0:14:45.520 not actually awake to reality, and then you even assess 0:14:45.640 --> 0:14:52.640 your own life story through uh you know this these myths. See, 0:14:52.800 --> 0:14:57.000 you can't even understand the times in which you've survived, 0:14:58.400 --> 0:15:01.400 you know, police violence because you were white, or the 0:15:01.440 --> 0:15:05.600 ways in which you had access to capital, and so 0:15:05.760 --> 0:15:08.680 you just believe, I'm just the greatest person on earth 0:15:10.200 --> 0:15:12.480 and if only those black perks would work as hard 0:15:12.520 --> 0:15:15.640 as me. So you have an individual that doesn't even 0:15:15.720 --> 0:15:19.840 able to understand their own sort of standing in the world, 0:15:20.080 --> 0:15:23.040 nor the standing you know of white people in the world, 0:15:23.080 --> 0:15:26.120 nor the sort of reality of you know, of racism 0:15:26.200 --> 0:15:30.000 in the world. And then this is what's crucial. If 0:15:30.040 --> 0:15:38.600 you don't teach white children and even adults about racist ideas, 0:15:38.640 --> 0:15:44.120 about racist policies, and you convinced them that everything is equal, 0:15:45.240 --> 0:15:49.400 then you are able to easily manipulate them. You're able 0:15:49.480 --> 0:15:53.200 to be a billionaire and say to white working classmen, 0:15:53.320 --> 0:15:56.480 I am your defender. I'm going to push policies that 0:15:56.600 --> 0:15:59.320 help you. And then you're able to get into office 0:16:00.320 --> 0:16:03.400 not do anything to help those working class white men, 0:16:03.840 --> 0:16:08.560 and then you're able to maintain and if anything, grow 0:16:08.640 --> 0:16:12.600 their support, even as their own economic conditioning is worthy. 0:16:13.360 --> 0:16:16.120 And and that is essentially what happened. So white folks 0:16:16.120 --> 0:16:20.440 are so easily manipulated based on their racist ideas. But 0:16:20.520 --> 0:16:26.520 when they're taught um and they begin to see those 0:16:26.600 --> 0:16:29.040 racist ideas and even the privilege, and they adopt the 0:16:29.120 --> 0:16:32.760 more anti racist perspective, they're no longer able to be 0:16:32.880 --> 0:16:37.040 manipulated by by by by elected officials like Donald Trump. 0:16:38.240 --> 0:16:41.640 That is indeed the point. And it's so like, how 0:16:42.080 --> 0:16:46.160 do you through your work, right through your um, your 0:16:46.240 --> 0:16:51.880 new podcast, how will you continue to unpack that truth 0:16:51.960 --> 0:16:56.840 that racism is and and and the system of white 0:16:56.840 --> 0:17:00.680 supremacy built in this country is really about mass manipulation. 0:17:00.960 --> 0:17:03.680 As you have said, it is really about if you 0:17:03.800 --> 0:17:07.520 have young people in schools, because I'll go back to 0:17:07.560 --> 0:17:11.840 the education piece, begin to question why there is inequity, 0:17:12.000 --> 0:17:15.040 why certain things are the way that they are. Why, like, 0:17:15.280 --> 0:17:17.479 you know, I have friends that will talk to me, 0:17:17.560 --> 0:17:19.680 white friends that will talk to me about, you know, 0:17:19.880 --> 0:17:24.280 their great grandparents that passed down wealth, homes, businesses, this 0:17:24.400 --> 0:17:28.120 then the other thing, oh, their family legacy, right, and 0:17:28.240 --> 0:17:30.680 that they've been able to then benefit from and build 0:17:30.720 --> 0:17:33.159 off of. And I'm saying to myself, of course you 0:17:33.200 --> 0:17:36.760 were right because their businesses weren't burned down, they were 0:17:36.760 --> 0:17:39.000 able to get loans in the first place, they weren't 0:17:39.119 --> 0:17:41.000 run out of town. They were able to get loans 0:17:41.000 --> 0:17:44.320 to buy homes, to build, you know, to build businesses. 0:17:44.560 --> 0:17:48.159 And so if you don't see that it isn't laziness, 0:17:48.280 --> 0:17:50.919 it isn't It isn't this idea that we have created 0:17:51.040 --> 0:17:55.520 this stereotype around black people, that it really is these 0:17:55.560 --> 0:17:59.119 policies and these systems. If you don't get folks to question, 0:17:59.160 --> 0:18:03.120 then they continue to perpetuated. I'm just if we're still 0:18:03.160 --> 0:18:06.479 at a point of questioning reality, it's like, are we losing? 0:18:06.760 --> 0:18:09.760 Why are we? Are we? How are we? How do 0:18:09.840 --> 0:18:13.080 we win? What does that? What does that look like? 0:18:13.280 --> 0:18:16.840 Winning more people over to recognizing that is not enough 0:18:16.880 --> 0:18:20.360 to not be racist or oh why don't say racist things? 0:18:21.200 --> 0:18:26.399 I actually think that we have a governing majority of 0:18:26.480 --> 0:18:36.439 people who recognize racism as a problem. And but within 0:18:36.560 --> 0:18:41.280 that majority, you so, for instance, you have black men 0:18:41.400 --> 0:18:44.200 who are like, yes, racism is a problem, but they 0:18:44.200 --> 0:18:47.400 can't really recognize its intersection with sexism, so they then 0:18:47.440 --> 0:18:50.879 they're perpetuating that. Or you could have a white person 0:18:50.920 --> 0:18:55.480 who says, yes, racism theoretically is a problem, and it's 0:18:55.480 --> 0:18:58.399 a problem as it relates to environmental racism. You know, 0:18:58.560 --> 0:19:01.959 educational inequities is a problem. But now we can't rethink 0:19:02.000 --> 0:19:06.240 public safety right, and and so you have people who 0:19:07.480 --> 0:19:12.879 who don't understand or I should say, aren't recognizing the connections, 0:19:14.520 --> 0:19:18.800 or have racist ideas when it comes to one racial 0:19:18.840 --> 0:19:21.320 group and anti racist ideas when it comes to another 0:19:21.400 --> 0:19:25.400 racial group, and reject the racist ideas about their own 0:19:25.600 --> 0:19:29.480 group and accept the racist ideas about others and and 0:19:29.600 --> 0:19:34.200 don't realize that they are actually reinforcing what they claim 0:19:34.240 --> 0:19:38.560 to be battling. And again, I again, I want to 0:19:38.600 --> 0:19:41.520 sort of emphasize that, you know, as a man of color, 0:19:42.560 --> 0:19:45.480 you know, especially coming after a twenty twenty election where 0:19:45.520 --> 0:19:49.119 a growing number of men of color compared to twenty 0:19:49.280 --> 0:19:53.280 sixteen voted for Donald Trump on this pretext that he 0:19:53.400 --> 0:19:57.160 somehow was going to free them, right, And so I 0:19:57.200 --> 0:20:00.719 think there is a there is a a number of 0:20:00.760 --> 0:20:04.919 people who are have some level of awareness, but I 0:20:04.920 --> 0:20:07.399 think we have to get them to really connect the 0:20:07.440 --> 0:20:11.840 dots and also get them to be self reflective and 0:20:11.920 --> 0:20:14.679 self critical. There are too many white liberals who are 0:20:14.720 --> 0:20:19.760 just focused on let's say, white conservatives as the problem 0:20:20.040 --> 0:20:22.600 and don't want to look in the mirror about how 0:20:22.640 --> 0:20:27.280 they may be in reinforcing racism. You know. One of 0:20:28.040 --> 0:20:30.199 the many speeches, but one of the things that that 0:20:30.280 --> 0:20:34.120 has always stuck out to me about doctor Martin Luther 0:20:34.280 --> 0:20:38.359 King was the warning about white moderates. Yea, though, I 0:20:38.400 --> 0:20:41.840 mean because I find that that warning is something that 0:20:42.080 --> 0:20:45.560 we don't really take as an alarm. You know. Right now, 0:20:45.760 --> 0:20:50.480 we have a majority in Congress. You know, we have 0:20:50.640 --> 0:20:54.359 the White House, and yet we can't manage to pass 0:20:54.480 --> 0:20:59.200 a voting rights bill that is going to sustain our democracy. 0:20:59.440 --> 0:21:04.080 We are a ticking time bomb as a country with 0:21:04.640 --> 0:21:07.520 I don't know, roughly two and a half years left 0:21:08.359 --> 0:21:14.159 right before fascism completely descends. And so I just I 0:21:14.200 --> 0:21:17.000 guess my question to you, you know, my final question 0:21:17.040 --> 0:21:22.200 to you is knowing that truth, like, do you have 0:21:22.600 --> 0:21:26.240 a level of hopefulness about where we are going? In 0:21:26.280 --> 0:21:29.400 the direction that we're going in? We have over three 0:21:29.480 --> 0:21:32.800 hundred and forty eight voter suppression bills that have been 0:21:33.640 --> 0:21:38.560 rolled out in forty seven states, passed in fourteen that 0:21:38.600 --> 0:21:41.920 are all about curbing the rights of people of color 0:21:41.960 --> 0:21:44.600 to be able to vote. And you had a man 0:21:44.760 --> 0:21:47.320 member of the Texas legislator that said, well, if it 0:21:47.359 --> 0:21:51.320 wasn't for our voting suppression bills in Texas, Texas would 0:21:51.359 --> 0:21:54.520 have gone for Biden literally said the quiet part out loud. 0:21:55.840 --> 0:22:00.399 So are you hopeful? Do you have hope? Because you know, 0:22:00.440 --> 0:22:03.120 my listeners know that I struggle without on a regular basis, 0:22:04.200 --> 0:22:11.639 So I'm curious. So I think that it is a 0:22:11.840 --> 0:22:16.679 very very difficult sort of times as you just described. 0:22:16.800 --> 0:22:23.640 I mean literally, the Republican Party is gearing up too. 0:22:25.560 --> 0:22:30.120 If their candidate loses in the twenty twenty four election, 0:22:30.240 --> 0:22:36.320 that they essentially would not be willing to consummate Biden's reelection. 0:22:36.960 --> 0:22:40.119 Like that's where everything is headed towards. And again that's 0:22:40.160 --> 0:22:43.959 if they're able to lose as a result of this 0:22:44.280 --> 0:22:48.560 series of voter suppression policies, which they're probably the favorites 0:22:49.560 --> 0:22:54.200 because of the voter suppression and because of even Democrats 0:22:54.960 --> 0:22:59.679 sniping sort of at each other, specifically centrist claiming that 0:23:00.000 --> 0:23:07.439 aggressives and other particularly black activists somehow lost uh you know, 0:23:07.720 --> 0:23:13.040 the the you know seats for Democrats, um and telling 0:23:13.040 --> 0:23:16.919 people to quote tone it down, uh, to so that 0:23:17.000 --> 0:23:23.080 they can you know, keep Congress or regain the presidency. 0:23:23.880 --> 0:23:27.120 And and this just this constant telling particularly young people 0:23:27.160 --> 0:23:31.359 of color to wait, tone it down, and then you know, 0:23:31.600 --> 0:23:34.840 how long are we gonna wait? You know, I don't 0:23:34.920 --> 0:23:38.000 as I know as a young black male that any 0:23:38.119 --> 0:23:40.840 day when I walk outside and a police car passes 0:23:40.880 --> 0:23:44.440 me by could be my last. Uh. And so like 0:23:44.880 --> 0:23:48.280 I think there's a certain level of urgency, but but ultimately, 0:23:48.280 --> 0:23:53.320 in terms of hope, I'm hopeful, not necessarily because of 0:23:53.359 --> 0:23:56.640 what's happening in society or what's not happening in society. 0:23:57.400 --> 0:24:02.000 I'm hoping from a philosophical standpoint that I believe you 0:24:02.119 --> 0:24:05.160 have to believe change as possible, radical change as possible 0:24:06.440 --> 0:24:09.639 in order to bring it about. And and and so 0:24:09.800 --> 0:24:13.200 that's really why I maintain hope. And then as an historian, 0:24:14.800 --> 0:24:17.800 you know, and especially as a descendant, you know, as 0:24:17.920 --> 0:24:21.359 as as a Black American, as a descendant of enslave people, 0:24:22.000 --> 0:24:24.479 and you you know, black folks have in this country 0:24:24.480 --> 0:24:28.400 have done the impossible time and again. Uh. And and 0:24:28.560 --> 0:24:31.120 you know, I think we can, especially those of us 0:24:31.160 --> 0:24:34.040 who you know and black folks really have always been 0:24:34.119 --> 0:24:37.399 leading the anti racist sort of movement. Uh. You know, 0:24:37.440 --> 0:24:42.280 I think we can do the impossible again. I hope 0:24:42.320 --> 0:24:44.600 that you are right. And I'm just you know, I'm 0:24:44.680 --> 0:24:47.480 I'm I'm so thankful for the work that you do, 0:24:47.640 --> 0:24:50.520 for the writings that you do, the teachings um that 0:24:50.600 --> 0:24:53.679 you do, because I I want to believe that we 0:24:53.800 --> 0:24:59.600 can do the impossible. Abolishing slavery was considered impossible, right like, Uh, 0:25:00.000 --> 0:25:04.359 America's first black president was considered impossible. Having a woman 0:25:04.560 --> 0:25:08.600 vice president that is a woman of color was considered impossible, 0:25:08.640 --> 0:25:12.080 and we've done those things. UM, So I hope. My 0:25:12.520 --> 0:25:15.520 hope is that your work will continue to open up 0:25:15.560 --> 0:25:18.919 people's a lot eyes so that they stop walking around 0:25:18.960 --> 0:25:23.720 half asleep. UM. Please please tell folks, um some of 0:25:23.760 --> 0:25:26.640 the guests that are coming up on your on your podcast, 0:25:26.680 --> 0:25:30.040 that they are going to be able to wow. Yeah, 0:25:30.320 --> 0:25:33.800 I mean, we have a just an incredible lineup, you know, 0:25:33.960 --> 0:25:39.720 Robin d g Kelly, Julean Castro, Jamel Hill, we have 0:25:40.160 --> 0:25:48.399 Miriam Kava, we have Heather McGee, Rebecca Coakeley friends of mine, 0:25:49.240 --> 0:25:53.679 David Truer. Yeah, we I mean, you know, we have 0:25:53.760 --> 0:25:56.359 a great lineup of folks. And and obviously each of 0:25:56.400 --> 0:26:00.960 them are experts about different sort of forms or areas 0:26:01.040 --> 0:26:03.680 or sectors of racism, and I'm really excited to dig 0:26:03.760 --> 0:26:10.159 deep with each of them in these different areas. The 0:26:10.240 --> 0:26:13.440 importance of anti racism cannot be overstated. In an era 0:26:13.560 --> 0:26:16.320 in which the right is pushing back against programs like 0:26:16.400 --> 0:26:19.879 the sixteen nineteen Project and the Boogeyman of critical race theory. 0:26:20.080 --> 0:26:23.439 We need to defend these necessary educational programs while also 0:26:23.520 --> 0:26:27.000 practicing anti racism in our own lives and teaching those 0:26:27.040 --> 0:26:30.400 around us about the urgent benefits of being anti racists. 0:26:30.600 --> 0:26:33.359 To hear more from Ebrahm, do check out his podcast, 0:26:33.480 --> 0:26:36.760 be Anti Racists and to hear more from me, you 0:26:36.800 --> 0:26:40.040 can support me on Patreon. Five dollars a month gets 0:26:40.040 --> 0:26:43.120 you access to hundreds of shows, including five brand new 0:26:43.160 --> 0:26:46.880 hour long shows in your feed every single week. Head 0:26:46.920 --> 0:26:51.000 over to patreon dot com slash wokeaf now and subscribe. 0:26:51.119 --> 0:26:53.320 We have had so many woke guests in the last 0:26:53.359 --> 0:26:55.560 few months that I have been excited to learn from 0:26:55.600 --> 0:26:58.919 and share with the woke af nation. Power to the 0:26:58.960 --> 0:27:01.919 people and to all the people. Power, get woke and 0:27:02.119 --> 0:27:03.440 stay woke as fuck.