1 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:15,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to Woke af with me Danielle Moody. The last 2 00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:18,880 Speaker 1: few months have seen an explosion of performative outrage from 3 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:22,680 Speaker 1: conservative media over what they are calling critical race theory. 4 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:26,720 Speaker 1: While critical race theory is indeed a decades old academic movement, 5 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:30,040 Speaker 1: the term has recently been weaponized by the right to 6 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:34,600 Speaker 1: dismiss any honest analysis of America's racist foundation that they 7 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:38,800 Speaker 1: want to whitewash or just completely ignore. And yet right 8 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 1: now can be a more perfect time to teach Americans 9 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 1: about the history of racism and how we can all 10 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:47,199 Speaker 1: do a better job of combating it in our society, 11 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:51,640 Speaker 1: which of course is why conservatives both protest so much. 12 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:55,160 Speaker 1: White people love talking about how they're not racist. But 13 00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:57,360 Speaker 1: what if I told you it's not enough to simply 14 00:00:57,440 --> 00:01:00,640 Speaker 1: not be racist, that you must, in fact be actively 15 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:04,680 Speaker 1: anti racist. That is the argument made by Abram X. Kendy, 16 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:07,920 Speaker 1: director of the Center for Anti Racist Research at Boston 17 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:11,720 Speaker 1: University and the author of the book appropriately titled How 18 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:15,160 Speaker 1: to Be Anti Racist. He also has a new podcast 19 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:18,680 Speaker 1: simply titled Be Anti Racist, and he joined me on 20 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:21,639 Speaker 1: my podcast last week, which you can support right now 21 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:24,920 Speaker 1: at Patreon dot com, Slash woke af to talk all 22 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:27,560 Speaker 1: about anti racism and the myriad of ways he is 23 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 1: spreading the good word about this necessary practice. Ibram, We're 24 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:40,039 Speaker 1: at a time in our country following the murder that 25 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:44,720 Speaker 1: we all witnessed of George Floyd, the murders of Brianna Taylor, 26 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:48,040 Speaker 1: of Ahmad Aubrey, the list goes on and on and on. 27 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:55,920 Speaker 1: Twenty twenty was a cataclysm of events around race racism. 28 00:01:56,360 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 1: I mean, we saw phone calls to the police for 29 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 1: people that are bird watching. We saw you know so 30 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:07,680 Speaker 1: much and it seems like it's unrelenting. How do you 31 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:13,119 Speaker 1: describe your work? And then the necessity not to just 32 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:18,840 Speaker 1: say I'm not racist, but to actively be anti racist? 33 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 1: What does that mean to you and why at this 34 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:27,080 Speaker 1: important point I believe in our history, is it necessary 35 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:30,840 Speaker 1: that we change the narrative from I'm not racist to 36 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 1: actively being anti racist. Well, first, I'm happy that we're 37 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:40,359 Speaker 1: able to have this conversation and thank you for bringing 38 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:45,000 Speaker 1: me onto the onto your show. I think it's important 39 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:49,639 Speaker 1: for us to to start from a basic truth, and 40 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:53,800 Speaker 1: it's a basic truth that is under attack, just like 41 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:58,840 Speaker 1: truth itself right now. And that basic truth is that 42 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:04,799 Speaker 1: we live in a nation of racial disparities and inequities, 43 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:08,160 Speaker 1: and injustice is all around us. Whether it's Black people 44 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 1: being disproportionately incarcerated, whether that's Native ping Native people being 45 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:17,680 Speaker 1: disproportionately killed from COVID nineteen, whether that's you know, black 46 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 1: women dying at higher rates from pregnancy than than than 47 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:27,120 Speaker 1: white women, whether that's you know, Latdex people being disproportionately impoverished, 48 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:32,040 Speaker 1: and on and on and so the status quo is 49 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:38,240 Speaker 1: racial inequity. And the fundamental question of our time is 50 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 1: why do these inequities exist? And there's two answers. One 51 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 1: answer is because of racism, systemical structural racism. The other 52 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:54,040 Speaker 1: answer is because there's something wrong with those people on 53 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 1: the dying or lower end. And and so, if the 54 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 1: status quo is inequity, and the cause of that inequity 55 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 1: is racism, to do nothing in the face of a 56 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 1: status quo is to allow that status quo to persist, 57 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 1: and so literally, to not do anything while Black people 58 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 1: are being enslaved, to not do anything, while while Native 59 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:27,839 Speaker 1: folks are being mass murdered, to not do anything, while 60 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 1: that the NUX people are being mass supported, what's going 61 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 1: to happen? It's going to only continue right and and 62 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:40,600 Speaker 1: indeed slaveholders wanted people in Chicago at Boston where I lived, 63 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 1: to do nothing, because that to do nothing was a 64 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:47,760 Speaker 1: form of complicity. And that's one of the things. So 65 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:50,480 Speaker 1: I've been trying to get the American people and really 66 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:54,360 Speaker 1: people around the world to realize that there's really only 67 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:58,440 Speaker 1: two options. You know, Either we're being racist by allowing 68 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:04,160 Speaker 1: the status quote to persist by our active champion of it, 69 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:07,400 Speaker 1: or by doing nothing in the face of it, or 70 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:12,120 Speaker 1: we are actively challenging racism and thereby being anti racist. 71 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:19,400 Speaker 1: You know, I think that where I find issue, where 72 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:22,360 Speaker 1: I find myself some days, where it feels like I'm 73 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:28,640 Speaker 1: screaming into the ether, is that we are still I 74 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:32,040 Speaker 1: feel at a point where we are trying to convince 75 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:37,560 Speaker 1: white Americans that racism actually exists. That we are still 76 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 1: at a point where it took watching a black man 77 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 1: have the life squeezed out of him for nine minutes 78 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 1: in twenty nine seconds in public and broad daylight for 79 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:58,520 Speaker 1: folks in every state of this country to actively protest 80 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:02,799 Speaker 1: for black lives and then understand that by the time 81 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:06,360 Speaker 1: the fall came, steam had run out and the polls 82 00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 1: had started to change in terms of where people were falling, 83 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:14,480 Speaker 1: where white people were falling on their commitment to really 84 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:18,880 Speaker 1: not just articulating that black lives matter, but actively doing 85 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 1: something to say that black lives matter. We just this 86 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:30,840 Speaker 1: past this month recognize the hundred year anniversary remembrance of 87 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:35,000 Speaker 1: the massacre that happened in Tulsa, and it was considered 88 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:40,520 Speaker 1: an extraordinary feat for the first president of the United 89 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:44,080 Speaker 1: States to actually visit Tulsa and to call it what 90 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 1: it was, a massacre and not a riot. So if 91 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 1: we are still I mean, it was a hundred years 92 00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:53,479 Speaker 1: and we're still just getting to a place where a 93 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 1: majority of people in this country didn't even know that 94 00:06:56,320 --> 00:06:58,560 Speaker 1: that occurred. And not only that that occurred, but that 95 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:03,080 Speaker 1: wasn't in an emily. So if all of these things 96 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:05,839 Speaker 1: are true, it's like, and we're still at this point 97 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 1: of convincing you know, I'm just wondering how we get 98 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:15,760 Speaker 1: to a place where we're actively working against this system 99 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 1: when I have to make you believe that the system 100 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 1: actually exists and it was meant to purposefully work against 101 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:29,160 Speaker 1: marginalized people. That's the fundamental challenge. And let me say, 102 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:37,760 Speaker 1: I think not to overly generalize white people. But there 103 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 1: I suspect there were some white people who saw this 104 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:49,920 Speaker 1: horrific murder of George Floyd on their laptops, you know, 105 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 1: on their phones, like like black folks did, and like 106 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 1: other folks did, and they felt horrible. Some of them 107 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 1: they have even felt guilty. They heard about a nearby demonstration, 108 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:12,640 Speaker 1: and they decided to go to that local demonstration, because indeed, 109 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:16,680 Speaker 1: there was demonstrations against police brutality and racism in almost 110 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 1: every county in this country. And so then they went 111 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:27,000 Speaker 1: to that demonstration, and that demonstration had speakers, had had 112 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:34,200 Speaker 1: signs that were you know that, and the experience, you know, 113 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 1: was one that that allowed them to feel better. So 114 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:43,160 Speaker 1: then they went home and you know, the only thing 115 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:47,280 Speaker 1: that changed were their feelings. And and and then you 116 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 1: had other white folks who were mass and have been 117 00:08:55,040 --> 00:09:01,920 Speaker 1: mass manipulated by by Trump and other Republicans and even 118 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:07,200 Speaker 1: other you know, Democrats really and and it sort of 119 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:08,800 Speaker 1: causes me to think, I don't know if you remember 120 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 1: one of Malcolm X's great speeches when he was talking 121 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 1: to black folks and he was like, you know who 122 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:20,600 Speaker 1: taught you to hate yourself? Yes, you've been hoodwinked you've 123 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:24,160 Speaker 1: been had, You've been left right. In other words, you 124 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 1: know you've had you know, you had the forces of racism, 125 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:32,800 Speaker 1: the very powerful forces of racism. You know, some very 126 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:37,560 Speaker 1: powerful officials who with a growing awareness among white people 127 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:43,480 Speaker 1: that racist power, racist policies and practices, that structural racism 128 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 1: was a problem. They were like, WHOA, people are going 129 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:50,760 Speaker 1: to start looking at us, in our policies, in our 130 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 1: rhetoric as the problem. No, no, no no, I need to 131 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:56,880 Speaker 1: clap back and say, no, no, no, we are not 132 00:09:56,920 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 1: the problem. Voters. Oppression policies aren't the problem. The ability 133 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:06,839 Speaker 1: for police officers to essentially, uh you know, execute people 134 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:10,400 Speaker 1: out will with no accountability based on bills that I 135 00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:15,880 Speaker 1: passed are not the problem. Those people who are demonstrating 136 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:20,559 Speaker 1: against racism or the real problem. Those black people who 137 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:25,280 Speaker 1: are describing white people and other people as racist are 138 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 1: the real problem. And and so then people by the 139 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:31,839 Speaker 1: end of the summer, as you stated, and certainly by 140 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:34,959 Speaker 1: this time, we're like, WHOA, Well, maybe people are like 141 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:41,760 Speaker 1: George Floyd, we're not the victims. Maybe they are the problem. 142 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:43,640 Speaker 1: And and so now we're in this period in which 143 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 1: we're still arguing what is the problem. Is it systemic 144 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:50,840 Speaker 1: racism or the people who are who are identifying systemic 145 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:53,240 Speaker 1: racism as the problem. And so you've had so many 146 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:59,080 Speaker 1: Americans that have been misled into believing Nicolehennah Jones is 147 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:02,400 Speaker 1: the problem as opposed to the problems she pointed out 148 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:06,440 Speaker 1: in our Historical Memory over sixteen nineteen in slavery, we 149 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:11,200 Speaker 1: always say to ourselves, right, and that racism will die 150 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:15,360 Speaker 1: out right. I can't tell you how many times over 151 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:18,440 Speaker 1: the course of my life that I've heard that, you know, 152 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:23,560 Speaker 1: when the old racist die, right, everything everything, some type 153 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:28,319 Speaker 1: of utopia is going to descend on America. And I 154 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 1: say this, I'm okaf all the time because I'm a 155 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:35,040 Speaker 1: former educator for early childhood education, and one of the 156 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:38,520 Speaker 1: reasons I went into education was for the sheer fact 157 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:42,560 Speaker 1: that our public education system is the biggest perpetuator of 158 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:48,560 Speaker 1: white supremacy. That it is not. It is not a marker, 159 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 1: a genetic marker that has passed down right through family. 160 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:57,240 Speaker 1: It is something that is actively taught. We actively decide 161 00:11:57,320 --> 00:12:00,760 Speaker 1: who the classics are, right, who the evaders are, who 162 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:03,079 Speaker 1: the leaders should be. And so when I see this 163 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:08,199 Speaker 1: pushback and not pushback, an essential decimation of the sixteen 164 00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:13,040 Speaker 1: nineteen project being taught in schools. People be threatening to 165 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:16,480 Speaker 1: lose funding if you decide, if you even utter the word, 166 00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:19,439 Speaker 1: utter the phrase sixteen nineteen project, that they are going 167 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 1: to take away funding from schools. I just have to 168 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:28,240 Speaker 1: ask you, like, where do you go from there? If 169 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 1: we're not if we can't even agree upon the truth, 170 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:36,080 Speaker 1: if we can't even agree upon the fact that you know, 171 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:39,800 Speaker 1: when when Joe Biden was in Tulsa, he said in 172 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:44,640 Speaker 1: his speech, you know, great nations face their dark their 173 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:48,280 Speaker 1: dark periods, right, they don't try and run away from it. 174 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:53,280 Speaker 1: And yet this nation has consistently run away from and 175 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:56,840 Speaker 1: denied and gas lit the population into believing that it 176 00:12:56,880 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 1: doesn't exist, that there is no problem. And so how 177 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 1: do you how do you grow from there? How do 178 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:07,400 Speaker 1: you activate from there? When the purpose of denying this 179 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:10,800 Speaker 1: body of work and just any critical conversations around race 180 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:16,840 Speaker 1: are to make white kids continue to be force fed 181 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:24,000 Speaker 1: the lie of American exceptionalism. That is just so important 182 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:26,520 Speaker 1: And that's the type of question we should be asking 183 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:31,439 Speaker 1: and thinking about because you know, even like even the 184 00:13:31,559 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 1: term woke itself, people are viewing it in a so 185 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:43,560 Speaker 1: sort of pejorative sense when you know, last I checked, 186 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:47,440 Speaker 1: I think it's important for human beings to walk through 187 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:53,640 Speaker 1: life awake. What what what what white? What racist ideas do? What? 188 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 1: What teaching on white supremacy does two white children, let 189 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:01,720 Speaker 1: alone children of color everyone. What it does to white 190 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:07,319 Speaker 1: children is it creates a scenario which they walk through 191 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 1: life asleep. You know, because if you, you know, if 192 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:16,920 Speaker 1: you're an American today saying things like systemic racism doesn't exist, 193 00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:23,920 Speaker 1: then what you, as a white American uh, perceived is 194 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:27,720 Speaker 1: that the cause of all these racial inequities and disparities 195 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:30,640 Speaker 1: that we talked about earlier is not the result of 196 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:36,080 Speaker 1: systemic racism, and it must be because of the inferiorities 197 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:38,960 Speaker 1: of superiorities of racial groups. So you walk through life 198 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 1: not actually awake to reality, and then you even assess 199 00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:52,640 Speaker 1: your own life story through uh you know this these myths. See, 200 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 1: you can't even understand the times in which you've survived, 201 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 1: you know, police violence because you were white, or the 202 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:05,600 Speaker 1: ways in which you had access to capital, and so 203 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:08,680 Speaker 1: you just believe, I'm just the greatest person on earth 204 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:12,480 Speaker 1: and if only those black perks would work as hard 205 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:15,640 Speaker 1: as me. So you have an individual that doesn't even 206 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:19,840 Speaker 1: able to understand their own sort of standing in the world, 207 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:23,040 Speaker 1: nor the standing you know of white people in the world, 208 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:26,120 Speaker 1: nor the sort of reality of you know, of racism 209 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 1: in the world. And then this is what's crucial. If 210 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:38,600 Speaker 1: you don't teach white children and even adults about racist ideas, 211 00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:44,120 Speaker 1: about racist policies, and you convinced them that everything is equal, 212 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 1: then you are able to easily manipulate them. You're able 213 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 1: to be a billionaire and say to white working classmen, 214 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:56,480 Speaker 1: I am your defender. I'm going to push policies that 215 00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:59,320 Speaker 1: help you. And then you're able to get into office 216 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:03,400 Speaker 1: not do anything to help those working class white men, 217 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:08,560 Speaker 1: and then you're able to maintain and if anything, grow 218 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 1: their support, even as their own economic conditioning is worthy. 219 00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:16,120 Speaker 1: And and that is essentially what happened. So white folks 220 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:20,440 Speaker 1: are so easily manipulated based on their racist ideas. But 221 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 1: when they're taught um and they begin to see those 222 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:29,040 Speaker 1: racist ideas and even the privilege, and they adopt the 223 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:32,760 Speaker 1: more anti racist perspective, they're no longer able to be 224 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 1: manipulated by by by by elected officials like Donald Trump. 225 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:41,640 Speaker 1: That is indeed the point. And it's so like, how 226 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:46,160 Speaker 1: do you through your work, right through your um, your 227 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 1: new podcast, how will you continue to unpack that truth 228 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 1: that racism is and and and the system of white 229 00:16:56,840 --> 00:17:00,680 Speaker 1: supremacy built in this country is really about mass manipulation. 230 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 1: As you have said, it is really about if you 231 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 1: have young people in schools, because I'll go back to 232 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:11,840 Speaker 1: the education piece, begin to question why there is inequity, 233 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:15,040 Speaker 1: why certain things are the way that they are. Why, like, 234 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:17,479 Speaker 1: you know, I have friends that will talk to me, 235 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:19,680 Speaker 1: white friends that will talk to me about, you know, 236 00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:24,280 Speaker 1: their great grandparents that passed down wealth, homes, businesses, this 237 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:28,120 Speaker 1: then the other thing, oh, their family legacy, right, and 238 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:30,680 Speaker 1: that they've been able to then benefit from and build 239 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:33,159 Speaker 1: off of. And I'm saying to myself, of course you 240 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:36,760 Speaker 1: were right because their businesses weren't burned down, they were 241 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:39,000 Speaker 1: able to get loans in the first place, they weren't 242 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 1: run out of town. They were able to get loans 243 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:44,320 Speaker 1: to buy homes, to build, you know, to build businesses. 244 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:48,159 Speaker 1: And so if you don't see that it isn't laziness, 245 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:50,919 Speaker 1: it isn't It isn't this idea that we have created 246 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:55,520 Speaker 1: this stereotype around black people, that it really is these 247 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:59,119 Speaker 1: policies and these systems. If you don't get folks to question, 248 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:03,120 Speaker 1: then they continue to perpetuated. I'm just if we're still 249 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:06,479 Speaker 1: at a point of questioning reality, it's like, are we losing? 250 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 1: Why are we? Are we? How are we? How do 251 00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:13,080 Speaker 1: we win? What does that? What does that look like? 252 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:16,840 Speaker 1: Winning more people over to recognizing that is not enough 253 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:20,360 Speaker 1: to not be racist or oh why don't say racist things? 254 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:26,399 Speaker 1: I actually think that we have a governing majority of 255 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:36,439 Speaker 1: people who recognize racism as a problem. And but within 256 00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:41,280 Speaker 1: that majority, you so, for instance, you have black men 257 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:44,200 Speaker 1: who are like, yes, racism is a problem, but they 258 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:47,400 Speaker 1: can't really recognize its intersection with sexism, so they then 259 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:50,879 Speaker 1: they're perpetuating that. Or you could have a white person 260 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:55,480 Speaker 1: who says, yes, racism theoretically is a problem, and it's 261 00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:58,399 Speaker 1: a problem as it relates to environmental racism. You know, 262 00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:01,959 Speaker 1: educational inequities is a problem. But now we can't rethink 263 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:06,240 Speaker 1: public safety right, and and so you have people who 264 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:12,879 Speaker 1: who don't understand or I should say, aren't recognizing the connections, 265 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:18,800 Speaker 1: or have racist ideas when it comes to one racial 266 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 1: group and anti racist ideas when it comes to another 267 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:25,400 Speaker 1: racial group, and reject the racist ideas about their own 268 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:29,480 Speaker 1: group and accept the racist ideas about others and and 269 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:34,200 Speaker 1: don't realize that they are actually reinforcing what they claim 270 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:38,560 Speaker 1: to be battling. And again, I again, I want to 271 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:41,520 Speaker 1: sort of emphasize that, you know, as a man of color, 272 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:45,480 Speaker 1: you know, especially coming after a twenty twenty election where 273 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:49,119 Speaker 1: a growing number of men of color compared to twenty 274 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:53,280 Speaker 1: sixteen voted for Donald Trump on this pretext that he 275 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:57,160 Speaker 1: somehow was going to free them, right, And so I 276 00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:00,719 Speaker 1: think there is a there is a a number of 277 00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:04,919 Speaker 1: people who are have some level of awareness, but I 278 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:07,399 Speaker 1: think we have to get them to really connect the 279 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:11,840 Speaker 1: dots and also get them to be self reflective and 280 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:14,679 Speaker 1: self critical. There are too many white liberals who are 281 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:19,760 Speaker 1: just focused on let's say, white conservatives as the problem 282 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:22,600 Speaker 1: and don't want to look in the mirror about how 283 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 1: they may be in reinforcing racism. You know. One of 284 00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:30,199 Speaker 1: the many speeches, but one of the things that that 285 00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:34,120 Speaker 1: has always stuck out to me about doctor Martin Luther 286 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:38,359 Speaker 1: King was the warning about white moderates. Yea, though, I 287 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:41,840 Speaker 1: mean because I find that that warning is something that 288 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:45,560 Speaker 1: we don't really take as an alarm. You know. Right now, 289 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:50,480 Speaker 1: we have a majority in Congress. You know, we have 290 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:54,359 Speaker 1: the White House, and yet we can't manage to pass 291 00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:59,200 Speaker 1: a voting rights bill that is going to sustain our democracy. 292 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:04,080 Speaker 1: We are a ticking time bomb as a country with 293 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 1: I don't know, roughly two and a half years left 294 00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:14,159 Speaker 1: right before fascism completely descends. And so I just I 295 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:17,000 Speaker 1: guess my question to you, you know, my final question 296 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:22,200 Speaker 1: to you is knowing that truth, like, do you have 297 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:26,240 Speaker 1: a level of hopefulness about where we are going? In 298 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:29,400 Speaker 1: the direction that we're going in? We have over three 299 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:32,800 Speaker 1: hundred and forty eight voter suppression bills that have been 300 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:38,560 Speaker 1: rolled out in forty seven states, passed in fourteen that 301 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:41,920 Speaker 1: are all about curbing the rights of people of color 302 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:44,600 Speaker 1: to be able to vote. And you had a man 303 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:47,320 Speaker 1: member of the Texas legislator that said, well, if it 304 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:51,320 Speaker 1: wasn't for our voting suppression bills in Texas, Texas would 305 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 1: have gone for Biden literally said the quiet part out loud. 306 00:21:55,840 --> 00:22:00,399 Speaker 1: So are you hopeful? Do you have hope? Because you know, 307 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:03,120 Speaker 1: my listeners know that I struggle without on a regular basis, 308 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:11,639 Speaker 1: So I'm curious. So I think that it is a 309 00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:16,679 Speaker 1: very very difficult sort of times as you just described. 310 00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:23,640 Speaker 1: I mean literally, the Republican Party is gearing up too. 311 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:30,120 Speaker 1: If their candidate loses in the twenty twenty four election, 312 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:36,320 Speaker 1: that they essentially would not be willing to consummate Biden's reelection. 313 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:40,119 Speaker 1: Like that's where everything is headed towards. And again that's 314 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:43,959 Speaker 1: if they're able to lose as a result of this 315 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:48,560 Speaker 1: series of voter suppression policies, which they're probably the favorites 316 00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:54,200 Speaker 1: because of the voter suppression and because of even Democrats 317 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:59,679 Speaker 1: sniping sort of at each other, specifically centrist claiming that 318 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:07,439 Speaker 1: aggressives and other particularly black activists somehow lost uh you know, 319 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:13,040 Speaker 1: the the you know seats for Democrats, um and telling 320 00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:16,919 Speaker 1: people to quote tone it down, uh, to so that 321 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:23,080 Speaker 1: they can you know, keep Congress or regain the presidency. 322 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:27,120 Speaker 1: And and this just this constant telling particularly young people 323 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:31,359 Speaker 1: of color to wait, tone it down, and then you know, 324 00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:34,840 Speaker 1: how long are we gonna wait? You know, I don't 325 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:38,000 Speaker 1: as I know as a young black male that any 326 00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:40,840 Speaker 1: day when I walk outside and a police car passes 327 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:44,440 Speaker 1: me by could be my last. Uh. And so like 328 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:48,280 Speaker 1: I think there's a certain level of urgency, but but ultimately, 329 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:53,320 Speaker 1: in terms of hope, I'm hopeful, not necessarily because of 330 00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:56,640 Speaker 1: what's happening in society or what's not happening in society. 331 00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:02,000 Speaker 1: I'm hoping from a philosophical standpoint that I believe you 332 00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:05,160 Speaker 1: have to believe change as possible, radical change as possible 333 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:09,639 Speaker 1: in order to bring it about. And and and so 334 00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:13,200 Speaker 1: that's really why I maintain hope. And then as an historian, 335 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:17,800 Speaker 1: you know, and especially as a descendant, you know, as 336 00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:21,359 Speaker 1: as as a Black American, as a descendant of enslave people, 337 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:24,479 Speaker 1: and you you know, black folks have in this country 338 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:28,400 Speaker 1: have done the impossible time and again. Uh. And and 339 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:31,120 Speaker 1: you know, I think we can, especially those of us 340 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:34,040 Speaker 1: who you know and black folks really have always been 341 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:37,399 Speaker 1: leading the anti racist sort of movement. Uh. You know, 342 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:42,280 Speaker 1: I think we can do the impossible again. I hope 343 00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:44,600 Speaker 1: that you are right. And I'm just you know, I'm 344 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:47,480 Speaker 1: I'm I'm so thankful for the work that you do, 345 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 1: for the writings that you do, the teachings um that 346 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:53,679 Speaker 1: you do, because I I want to believe that we 347 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 1: can do the impossible. Abolishing slavery was considered impossible, right like, Uh, 348 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:04,359 Speaker 1: America's first black president was considered impossible. Having a woman 349 00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:08,600 Speaker 1: vice president that is a woman of color was considered impossible, 350 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:12,080 Speaker 1: and we've done those things. UM, So I hope. My 351 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:15,520 Speaker 1: hope is that your work will continue to open up 352 00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:18,919 Speaker 1: people's a lot eyes so that they stop walking around 353 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 1: half asleep. UM. Please please tell folks, um some of 354 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:26,640 Speaker 1: the guests that are coming up on your on your podcast, 355 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:30,040 Speaker 1: that they are going to be able to wow. Yeah, 356 00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:33,800 Speaker 1: I mean, we have a just an incredible lineup, you know, 357 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:39,720 Speaker 1: Robin d g Kelly, Julean Castro, Jamel Hill, we have 358 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:48,399 Speaker 1: Miriam Kava, we have Heather McGee, Rebecca Coakeley friends of mine, 359 00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:53,679 Speaker 1: David Truer. Yeah, we I mean, you know, we have 360 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:56,359 Speaker 1: a great lineup of folks. And and obviously each of 361 00:25:56,400 --> 00:26:00,960 Speaker 1: them are experts about different sort of forms or areas 362 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:03,680 Speaker 1: or sectors of racism, and I'm really excited to dig 363 00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:10,159 Speaker 1: deep with each of them in these different areas. The 364 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,440 Speaker 1: importance of anti racism cannot be overstated. In an era 365 00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:16,320 Speaker 1: in which the right is pushing back against programs like 366 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:19,879 Speaker 1: the sixteen nineteen Project and the Boogeyman of critical race theory. 367 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:23,439 Speaker 1: We need to defend these necessary educational programs while also 368 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:27,000 Speaker 1: practicing anti racism in our own lives and teaching those 369 00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:30,400 Speaker 1: around us about the urgent benefits of being anti racists. 370 00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:33,359 Speaker 1: To hear more from Ebrahm, do check out his podcast, 371 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:36,760 Speaker 1: be Anti Racists and to hear more from me, you 372 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:40,040 Speaker 1: can support me on Patreon. Five dollars a month gets 373 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:43,120 Speaker 1: you access to hundreds of shows, including five brand new 374 00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:46,880 Speaker 1: hour long shows in your feed every single week. Head 375 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:51,000 Speaker 1: over to patreon dot com slash wokeaf now and subscribe. 376 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:53,320 Speaker 1: We have had so many woke guests in the last 377 00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:55,560 Speaker 1: few months that I have been excited to learn from 378 00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:58,919 Speaker 1: and share with the woke af nation. Power to the 379 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:01,919 Speaker 1: people and to all the people. Power, get woke and 380 00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:03,440 Speaker 1: stay woke as fuck.