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Speaker 1: Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where we're avoiding

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Speaker 1: cracks in the sidewalk, being careful around mirrors, and staying

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Speaker 1: far away from ladders. Just in case. It's Friday, June thirteenth.

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Speaker 1: Happy Friday the thirteenth to everybody except my Triskadeca folks.

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Speaker 1: On today's show, we'll be skipping the need to know

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Speaker 1: and jumping straight into my conversation with Howard Meggill, founder

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Speaker 1: and editor of The Nine Newsletter and the Next Women's

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Speaker 1: Basketball Newsroom. He's got a new book coming out on

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Speaker 1: June seventeenth, titled Becoming Caitlin Clark, The Unknown Origin Story

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Speaker 1: of a Modern Basketball Superstar. So we talked about how

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Speaker 1: we approached putting Clark's meteoric rise in context, the research

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Speaker 1: he did to tell the history of women's basketball and

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Speaker 1: dig up the stories of past women's soups grates, and

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Speaker 1: his role guiding young writers in the evolving women's sports

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Speaker 1: media landscape. It's all coming up right after this, joining

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Speaker 1: us now. He's the founder and editor of The Nine

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Speaker 1: Newsletter and the Next Women's Basketball Newsroom, a staff writer

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Speaker 1: for Baseball Prospectives, and senior contributor at Forbes dot com.

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Speaker 1: He's published eight books, including his latest, Becoming Caitlin Clark,

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Speaker 1: out June seventeenth. He'll take the occasional break from women's

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Speaker 1: sports to down a Metz Cheese steak, egg roll, or

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Speaker 1: witness the glory of the Philly fanatic hot dog Cannon.

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Speaker 1: It's Howard Magdoll.

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Speaker 2: Hi, Howard, Hi, Sarah. Great to be with you always.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, great to have you. Congrats on the book. Before

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Speaker 1: we get to that, I want to back up a

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Speaker 1: little for our listeners that might not know your extensive

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Speaker 1: history in the women's sports space. So can you give

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Speaker 1: us a sort of condensed version of how you got

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Speaker 1: here and how you've been such a big part of

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Speaker 1: women's basketball and women's sports.

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Speaker 3: I appreciate that, you know, for me, it has been

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Speaker 3: our journey over the course of my career. I've been

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Speaker 3: in sports journalism about twenty years. And as soon as

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Speaker 3: you get involved and you know this that you can

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Speaker 3: see this gap between how men's sports and women's sports

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Speaker 3: are covered, and you can't unsee it. And so the

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Speaker 3: question is in my mind and has been what do

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Speaker 3: you do about it? And I've covered women's sports at

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Speaker 3: legacy publications for many years, always felt like I was

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Speaker 3: building in sand, and so how do you go about

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Speaker 3: building the infrastructure that creates the everyday coverage Number one

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Speaker 3: and number two creates opportunities for others to be doing

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Speaker 3: the work as well. And so in twenty eighteen started

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Speaker 3: The Nine, which is a women's sports newsletter. It was

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Speaker 3: three sports, then we're up to six now one per day,

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Speaker 3: and then in twenty twenty the newsroom the next, which

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Speaker 3: is a women's basketball twenty four seven, three sixty five

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Speaker 3: newsroom where we have over one hundred reported pieces every

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Speaker 3: single month on women's sports. We have a WNBA beat

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Speaker 3: reporter or sometimes two on every single team. We try

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Speaker 3: to cover with the fierce urgency that you can really

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Speaker 3: take for granted when it comes to men's sports. And

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Speaker 3: so that's essentially the thumbnail version of how I'm here.

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Speaker 1: I love it, and it's so true, and it's something

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Speaker 1: of course we think about a lot here at this show.

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Speaker 1: The only daily podcast is what can we bring to

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Speaker 1: people consistently and with regularity that they can't find anywhere else,

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Speaker 1: so that they can keep up and connect all the

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Speaker 1: stories in different stars across the space. For those who

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Speaker 1: want to subscribe The Nine is like title nine the

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Speaker 1: Roman numerals IX, so if you're searching forward, it's the

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Speaker 1: IX newsletter and then the next Women's basketball so you

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Speaker 1: can subscribe to those and get all the goodness in

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Speaker 1: your inbox. I want to talk really quickly about that,

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Speaker 1: because it's great to have those goals. It's great to

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Speaker 1: want to create something. But did you actually want to

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Speaker 1: be a boss, an entrepreneur, someone who had to handle

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Speaker 1: a staff and manage payroll and like all those other things,

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Speaker 1: because I don't. So I'm very impressed that you are

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Speaker 1: helping so many other young reporters and journalists in the space,

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Speaker 1: because that's a lot of extra work on top of

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Speaker 1: the stuff you actually want to do, presumably, which is

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Speaker 1: the journalism side.

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Speaker 2: I appreciate that question. You know.

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Speaker 3: What I have found is being able to create these

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Speaker 3: opportunities and build this infra structure with permanence makes it

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Speaker 3: worth doing those other things. I can't tell you that

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Speaker 3: I love the process of taking on payroll by hand

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Speaker 3: every single month, but absolutely to be able to reward

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Speaker 3: the folks who are doing it is also really significant

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Speaker 3: to me. And being a mentor in this space is

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Speaker 3: something that's really important to me. So there's enough that

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Speaker 3: I love out of it that, Yes, the place where

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Speaker 3: I feel most at home is in a pressure room

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Speaker 3: or sitting in a one on one interview, but being

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Speaker 3: able to do those things as well important in something

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Speaker 3: that I've come to really find joy in.

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Speaker 1: What's the toughest part about managing folks, especially folks that

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Speaker 1: they're maybe in one of their first gigs learning the

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Speaker 1: ropes as journalists.

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Speaker 2: The most difficult? Then? That's hard to say.

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Speaker 3: You know, everyone comes with certain strengths and certain weaknesses,

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Speaker 3: and it's sort of identifying what are the best ways

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Speaker 3: that I can support a young journalist, you know, as

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Speaker 3: she makes your way forward in this work. So I

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Speaker 3: wouldn't say that there's one thing that stands out most

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Speaker 3: of all. You know, they're different challenges for different people,

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Speaker 3: But the joy of seeing somebody figure it out is

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Speaker 3: my favorite thing. I may enjoy that more than doing

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Speaker 3: the work itself.

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Speaker 1: Honestly, Oh, that's amazing. That's probably why you're in the

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Speaker 1: position that you're in. That's that's a really good quality

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Speaker 1: to have to care so much about watching other people

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Speaker 1: as they rise. I find what's interesting to me moving

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Speaker 1: across different spaces is even at ESPN, at different spaces

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Speaker 1: at ESPN, how the newsroom, whether that was a radio

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Speaker 1: or a TV or a written kind of newsroom operated differently,

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Speaker 1: And I wonder for you how that works. You've got

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Speaker 1: sort of whatever you make and create is the rules

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Speaker 1: for how you operate. But then you're working with journalists

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Speaker 1: who might have jobs at other places. You're working with

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Speaker 1: folks who maybe have never worked in an official journalistic

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Speaker 1: capacity anywhere. What do you tell them about how to

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Speaker 1: handle themselves in the women's sports space, particularly as it

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Speaker 1: changes so much, because it went from sort of pay

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Speaker 1: your own way, show up if you care about it,

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Speaker 1: sometimes too sick a phantic coverage because you're trying to

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Speaker 1: make sure you connect with the athletes and continue to

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Speaker 1: get access to Now where there's an expectation to really

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Speaker 1: be professional in the space and to potentially be able

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Speaker 1: to and have access to ask tougher questions. How do

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Speaker 1: you help them adjust to that?

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Speaker 3: There's no simple answer to that, but the way you

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Speaker 3: framed it is exactly right. I mean reflects obviously the

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Speaker 3: work that you do in this space all the time. Right,

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Speaker 3: there's a baseline we have to set up professionalism of

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Speaker 3: an understanding of you are there to cover and a

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Speaker 3: lot of people come from and this is not a

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Speaker 3: criticism from a place of we love the sport. We

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Speaker 3: care about the sport. You may even have fandom that

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Speaker 3: you bring into it, and we check that at the

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Speaker 3: door and we say, look, this is what we need

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Speaker 3: to do, and you do it for not just the

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Speaker 3: reasons of being able to maintain that distance, to be

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Speaker 3: able to cover, so that our audience understands we are

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Speaker 3: you can trust.

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Speaker 2: Because we are here to inform.

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Speaker 3: And ultimately our relationship is with the reader, the viewer,

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Speaker 3: the listener in all these cases, but also so that

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Speaker 3: there is that space to allow a writer to be

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Speaker 3: critical when necessary, not critical in a way that you

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Speaker 3: cannot look that person in the eye when you see

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Speaker 3: her the next day at practice, but to make sure

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Speaker 3: that you are telling the truth about what's happening. And

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Speaker 3: I think we've found a lot of success with that.

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Speaker 3: Being able to provide people the access to do the

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Speaker 3: work is something that is of course a fight in

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Speaker 3: and of itself sometimes but critical part of making sure

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Speaker 3: that people are there, people are showing up. And then

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Speaker 3: the flip side of that is is that the people

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Speaker 3: who we have covered through the years. Understand we will

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Speaker 3: be there. We will be there when they're winning, we

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Speaker 3: will be there when they're not. We covered the Indiana

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Speaker 3: fever when they were five and thirty one, no less

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Speaker 3: than we cover the Indiana fever today.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think that's a big part

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Speaker 1: of this space in general, is how are teams and

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Speaker 1: leagues and pr people and comms folks adjusting to the

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Speaker 1: new normal, and in some cases, I think not always

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Speaker 1: that great. I was talking to a local sports person

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Speaker 1: who said that their access to the women's teams in

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Speaker 1: their city is significantly less than the men's that they

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Speaker 1: are trying to give them more coverage. But whether it's

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Speaker 1: bandwidth resources that you know, not long tenures of the

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Speaker 1: folks working there who don't have relationships in the city

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Speaker 1: the same way, or whether it's the athletes themselves who

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Speaker 1: are rightfully gunchy about some of the coverage. How have

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Speaker 1: you seen the players in the w change over the

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Speaker 1: last couple of years, Because I do think that they

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Speaker 1: have a good reason to wonder about some of the

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Speaker 1: reporters parachuting in for the first time and asking dumb questions,

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Speaker 1: But they also need to be ready to make the

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Speaker 1: transition from fan like reporters to higher level journalists asking

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Speaker 1: tougher questions that are fair.

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Speaker 3: I think it's less binary than this. I think you've

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Speaker 3: identified a lot of critical parts of the issue that

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Speaker 3: we see right now, and it's severalfold. And one is

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Speaker 3: that not all teams and not all leads have come

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Speaker 3: to the conclusion we don't need to credential literally everyone,

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Speaker 3: whether or not they're.

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Speaker 2: Doing the work.

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Speaker 3: And as a result, players are not going to necessarily

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Speaker 3: know whether somebody is parachuting in without a lot of information,

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Speaker 3: somebody is coming to cover, or somebody is there in

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Speaker 3: a fan capacity but credentialed as if they are media.

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Speaker 3: And when you don't know where the next question is

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Speaker 3: coming from, I don't just mean physically, but I just

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Speaker 3: mean from what perspective you can meet unshy as a result.

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Speaker 3: And so there's a lot of work that needs to

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Speaker 3: be done on multiple levels. Right The media needs to

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Speaker 3: come in an informed way and that needs to happen.

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Speaker 3: Needs to be work at the team and lead level

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Speaker 3: to understand who ought to be in those spaces, and

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Speaker 3: then for players, you know there's an information and understanding

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Speaker 3: of who are the people as individuals who are covering

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Speaker 3: me rather than the media as a monolith, I mean

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Speaker 3: those of us. And you've been in these rooms too,

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Speaker 3: where you just you want to bang your head against

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Speaker 3: the wall when you're a question from another quote unquote

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Speaker 3: media member. And unfortunately even it's even binary hpray area.

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Speaker 3: It's not old media versus new media. It's not print

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Speaker 3: versus digital. You know, there's it's always complishing.

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Speaker 1: Case by case really yeah, And I think like one

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Speaker 1: of the things that stood out to me was talking

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Speaker 1: to a veteran player who said, it's as simple as

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Speaker 1: being able to tell by someone's question that they don't

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Speaker 1: know that they were just traded this year, or they

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Speaker 1: used to be an MVP, or they've won a title before,

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Speaker 1: and I think.

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Speaker 2: Their name is pronounce right. I mean, there's a lot

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Speaker 2: of basics.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think a lot of that though, is

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Speaker 1: also like there's a real fear and I've been there

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Speaker 1: of walking into male professional league locker rooms and worrying

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Speaker 1: what the other media will think about you if you

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Speaker 1: haven't done your homework. And in the women's space, there

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Speaker 1: are far too many media who stroll in having done

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Speaker 1: zero homework and feel perfectly fine. Asking dumbshit questions that

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Speaker 1: the people who do know recognize as dumb shit immediately.

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Speaker 1: On the other hand, I do think it's more helpful

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Speaker 1: you are allowed to be mad about that, and where

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Speaker 1: does that get you as a player if your reaction

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Speaker 1: is frustration as opposed to can you choose instead, especially

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Speaker 1: if someone seems to be coming with good intention and

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Speaker 1: just maybe needs to learn how to better prep to

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Speaker 1: help them through that. It's not their responsibility or their job,

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Speaker 1: but for their response to be offering a little bit

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Speaker 1: of grace, we'll probably serve them in the coverage of

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Speaker 1: them better than to get frustrated and shut down. So

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Speaker 1: I think there's like a little bit of both sides,

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Speaker 1: where again it's not the player's responsibility to do that,

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Speaker 1: and also does it help them or the league or

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Speaker 1: their team to essentially be mad and not do media

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Speaker 1: anymore because they want everybody to show up and ask

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Speaker 1: better questions, you know, like what's the end goal? The

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Speaker 1: end goal is more coverage, better coverage, you know, and

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Speaker 1: teaching those people with the dumb shit questions.

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Speaker 3: I think it's important to note as well that we

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Speaker 3: want to see places that haven't necessarily covered. The WNBA

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Speaker 3: or room in sports in the past to cover it.

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Speaker 3: But a lot of times that means that the editorial

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Speaker 3: structure in place doesn't even have folks who are able

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Speaker 3: to bring people along to do it the right way,

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Speaker 3: and so they are forced to learn on the job.

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Speaker 3: It's something that I'm really conscious of at the next

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Speaker 3: where we're trying to build people up to the point

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Speaker 3: that for those who stay with us, that's amazing. And

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Speaker 3: for the people who end up at a lot of

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Speaker 3: other places and they have they're coming in with the

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Speaker 3: training to be able to do it the right way,

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Speaker 3: but that type of modeling is not there in the

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Speaker 3: way that it is for a lot of men's sports,

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Speaker 3: just because the structures have not covered it before. So

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Speaker 3: I just think it's significant, and I, you know, I

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Speaker 3: just wanted to mention it as well.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I agree, And like I think that's why

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Speaker 1: in the end, everybody has allowed their feelings. But what

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Speaker 1: ends up getting us to the best place, and that's

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Speaker 1: a little bit of grace on both sides, right and

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Speaker 1: understanding that some of those people got assigned to you

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Speaker 1: an hour before drove out. They're trying to do their

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Speaker 1: best and when you help them, the coverage is better

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Speaker 1: than when you stonewall because you're frustrated. And we talked

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Speaker 1: to athletes about that too, and how they're ready for

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Speaker 1: the fair and tough questions. They just want them to

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Speaker 1: be well researched, which I understand. Let's talk about the book,

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Speaker 1: because you've written a number of books. Why, Caitlin Clark?

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Speaker 1: Why right now?

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Speaker 3: It's several years in the making, to be frank, And

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Speaker 3: it goes back to even just seeing her as an

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Speaker 3: initial phenomenon and seeing an understanding that as she blew

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Speaker 3: up and I mean that before she blew up in

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Speaker 3: an audience sens so she just blew up as a player,

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Speaker 3: which you could see right from the start, right from

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Speaker 3: day one as a freshman at Iowa, there was this

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Speaker 3: legacy clearly tied not just to the previous few years

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Speaker 3: at University of Iowa, but going back a century. And

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Speaker 3: you know, I've had the privilege of covering and writing

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Speaker 3: about Molly Kashmir, who was Molly bowlan machine dun Molly,

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Speaker 3: dating back to the nineteen seventies in the WBL, and

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Speaker 3: you just couldn't help but see those parallels right away.

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Speaker 3: And so just the more I dug into it, the

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Speaker 3: more it was just very clear to me this is

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Speaker 3: a multi generational story. And then the more she blew up,

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Speaker 3: the more it was clear and obvious that there's a

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Speaker 3: large audience out there who may not know why this

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Speaker 3: is happening now. And I think that's what's really important.

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Speaker 3: That's what drove me when I wrote Rare Jam, which

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Speaker 3: is about effectively four generations of women's players in Minnesota

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Speaker 3: and where that came from, and to see this history

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Speaker 3: in Iowa, it goes back even further and there are

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Speaker 3: these direct links. You know, Jan Jensen is the lead

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Speaker 3: assistant coaching Caitlin Clark, and her grandmother was a star

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Speaker 3: in girls six on six basketball, not only in the

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Speaker 3: nineteen twenties, but writing about it, and I had access

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Speaker 3: to her journals in a way that no one had

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Speaker 3: ever seen before writeing about it in ways the language

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Speaker 3: parallels the way Caitlin talks about living as a basketball

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Speaker 3: player today. And so the more you see that, the

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Speaker 3: more you just feel like, you know, Wow, this is

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Speaker 3: a story that runs so much deeper than I'm going

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Speaker 3: to be able to get to in one story or

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Speaker 3: one podcast.

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Speaker 1: We got to take a quick break when we come

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Speaker 1: back more with Howard mgdal hang tight. I loved the

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Speaker 1: history that was in the book because it's Caitlin Clark

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Speaker 1: has done a lot, but her story is still relatively short.

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Speaker 1: So the idea that you connect that short story that's

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Speaker 1: been broadcast on the highest and biggest stages alongside this

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Speaker 1: lengthy history. And you talk mostly about Iowa and how

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Speaker 1: Iowa's had this incredible support for women's basketball dating back

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Speaker 1: to even previous iterations of the sport, and you do

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Speaker 1: compare it to other places and how it's different, And

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Speaker 1: of course the part about Illinois is stuck with me,

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Speaker 1: but it was uniform across many states. But this is

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Speaker 1: the example you used from Illinois, you write, as historian

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Speaker 1: Scott Johnson Chronicle quote. Not long after the introduction of

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Speaker 1: basketball as an athletic activity for high school girls, all

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Speaker 1: levels of the educational hierarchy were engaged in a debate

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Speaker 1: over its merits. As a simple playground game, girls basketball

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Speaker 1: had prompted few objections. However, when girls started developing interscholastic

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Speaker 1: programs that rivaled those of the boys, basketball quickly turned

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Speaker 1: into a nightmare for school administrators. While students and empathetic

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Speaker 1: teachers push for more interschool play, school principles, and professional

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Speaker 1: educators marshaled their resistance to what they perceived as the

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Speaker 1: masculinization of the female athletic program. This scenario played itself

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Speaker 1: out in practically every state during the early twentieth century. Now,

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Speaker 1: this is not surprising to folks who have been in

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Speaker 1: the women's sports space. In fact, it feels weirdly reminiscent

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Speaker 1: of some of the reactions to the w last year,

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Speaker 1: for folks who hadn't watched before, who said, oh, this

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Speaker 1: is mma. They're boxing out there, this is too physical,

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Speaker 1: everyone's mean, they're targeting Caitlin, and we're all like, this

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Speaker 1: is basketball, bro, Like, why have you been watching? But

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Speaker 1: the idea that girls playing is fine until people come

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Speaker 1: to watch, or tickets get sold, or the stakes get high,

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Speaker 1: or it becomes similar to the boys or surpasses the boys.

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Speaker 1: And there were plenty of examples in early Iowa basketball

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Speaker 1: that you cite where thousands of people are going to games,

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Speaker 1: where there's a tiny town of just a couple hundred

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Speaker 1: and two thousand people show up to celebrate when they win,

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Speaker 1: lining down the street. And what was the big takeaway

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Speaker 1: for you of the waves of fighting that are required

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Speaker 1: to push women's sport forward from the eighteen hundreds to

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Speaker 1: the early nineteen hundreds and carrying on.

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Speaker 3: So this is a big takeaway for me from this book,

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Speaker 3: but frankly, this is a big takeaway for me from

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Speaker 3: Rare Gems. This is a big takeaway for me from

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Speaker 3: covering women's sports with a historical lens, and that is

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Speaker 3: that every time you see a gap between outcomes with

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Speaker 3: men's and women's sports, you can always trace it back

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Speaker 3: to process. And the thing that I think frustrates me

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Speaker 3: the most is where I hear people mistake process for outcome,

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Speaker 3: and to your point, and this is the most significant

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Speaker 3: part of it. Every time there's an elevation, every time

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Speaker 3: there is growth, there is a backlash to what we're seeing. Look,

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Speaker 3: we're seeing it in women's sports. We're seeing it, and

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Speaker 3: we've seen it at every wave of feminism that we've

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Speaker 3: had in this country throughout the world as well, you know,

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Speaker 3: again and again and again a pushback. And so that

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Speaker 3: for me is the big takeaway for people to understand

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Speaker 3: that women were playing basketball as soon as there was basketball,

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Speaker 3: just the same as men were. So everything that we've

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Speaker 3: seen for the EBB and flow and the fact that

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Speaker 3: there is not a parallel rise in men's basketball and

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Speaker 3: women's basketball is everything to do with efforts made to

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Speaker 3: stop the progress of women's basketball.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, one thousand percent. I talk about that all the time,

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Speaker 1: that if you don't understand the intention behind holding back

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Speaker 1: women's sports, you will continue to blame the product. And

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Speaker 1: the product has never been the problem. It has always

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Speaker 1: been the infrastructure and the people around it who are

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Speaker 1: trying to hold women back or keep women in a

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Speaker 1: specific lane. And it's frustrating to see that ebb and

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Speaker 1: flow and come back and repeat itself over the course

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Speaker 1: of time. We're currently fighting our way still in this

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Speaker 1: massive moment of growth, but of course we look at

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Speaker 1: some larger administration and other folks, the Trump administration, other

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Speaker 1: folks looking to push us back into yet another eb

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Speaker 1: What was the most surprising thing you learned about Caitlin

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Speaker 1: in the process of writing this book, because you sort

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Speaker 1: of tell these parallel stories of the history and then

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Speaker 1: her history as well.

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Speaker 3: The most surprising thing to me is that she never

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Speaker 3: had a moment of breaking. If that made sense, there

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Speaker 3: was something and it made sense within the context of

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Speaker 3: understanding that in a lot of ways she was born

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Speaker 3: and raised to meet this moment. But she did not

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Speaker 3: have a moment where her game failed her. She didn't

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Speaker 3: have a moment where she wasn't able to handle what

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Speaker 3: has been a gradually rising but clearly attention that she

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Speaker 3: has been receiving dating back to her high school days

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Speaker 3: and even before that. You know, she's playing at seventh

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Speaker 3: and eighth grade in these AAU tournaments in front of

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Speaker 3: you know, people like Lisa Bluter, and at no point

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Speaker 3: did she falter. And that is astonished.

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Speaker 1: So she is a robot.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it's astonishing, right, I mean, this is a

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Speaker 3: twenty three year old woman, and I just think about

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Speaker 3: myself at twenty three and what we are all prepared

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Speaker 3: to handle, and for her to handle this hurricane around

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Speaker 3: her that gets more and more intense, seemingly.

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Speaker 2: By the day.

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Speaker 3: And there was no moment where publicly she cracked. And

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Speaker 3: that to me is amazing because she would be understandable,

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Speaker 3: she would be human, she would be forgiven for having

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Speaker 3: done so. But we haven't seen it, yeah at all.

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Speaker 1: You talk about the coverage and conversation around her in

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Speaker 1: the book and on our show, we have struggled to

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Speaker 1: both address the problems that result from some of the

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Speaker 1: toxic discussion around her, and also embrace and acknowledge how

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Speaker 1: conversation around the league itself has changed and grown as

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Speaker 1: a result of her arrival. And I always describe her

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Speaker 1: as the match that lit the bonfire. You needed this

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Speaker 1: giant stack of sticks for that match to do anything,

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Speaker 1: but the match also expedited the fire in a way

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Speaker 1: that we'd never seen before. And you write in the

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Speaker 1: book the WNBA had existed as a safe space for

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Speaker 1: marginalized people for nearly three decades because broader American culture

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Speaker 1: so often ignored it. That trade off was felt in

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Speaker 1: ways large and small that filled the league's players, coaches, executives,

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Speaker 1: in long tenured fans with ambivalence. So this feeling of

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Speaker 1: we don't know how to feel about this growth because

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Speaker 1: we love it, and it's also bringing with it a

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Speaker 1: whole new kind of conversation that wasn't here before and frankly,

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Speaker 1: is not welcome. Ultimately, I loved that you came to

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Speaker 1: the conclusion that we have here, which is that you

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Speaker 1: can't name one thing or one reason as to why

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Speaker 1: Caitlin blew up the way she did. You can't name

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Speaker 1: one thing or one reason as to why the reaction

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Speaker 1: to Caitlin blowing up became so problematic? Can you talk

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Speaker 1: about some of the things that when writing this you

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Speaker 1: really recognized about how Caitlin became such a for many people,

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Speaker 1: black and white evil or good villain or hero sort

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Speaker 1: of character or avatar in the league.

437
00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:22,680
Speaker 3: And I would be remiss not to point out, as

438
00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:25,720
Speaker 3: a Rabbit listener that I am very appreciative of the

439
00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:28,119
Speaker 3: way you guys frame this on a regular basis, as

440
00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:32,520
Speaker 3: well as it relates to the question you asked. It

441
00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:37,280
Speaker 3: is mind boggling to me that people are trying to

442
00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:42,040
Speaker 3: come up with a single answer or to assign singular

443
00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:45,240
Speaker 3: motivations to how people even ought to feel about it.

444
00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:48,640
Speaker 3: And I spoke to players and coaches and gms all

445
00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:51,240
Speaker 3: around the lead. You know, I do that anyway in

446
00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:53,280
Speaker 3: the day to day course of my work, but for

447
00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:56,680
Speaker 3: this book, specifically in the idea that a player cannot

448
00:23:56,800 --> 00:24:00,679
Speaker 3: simultaneously be thrilled that the media rights deal is going

449
00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:03,080
Speaker 3: to be worth between eight and nine times what the

450
00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:05,800
Speaker 3: last media rights deal is, but also to want to

451
00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:09,920
Speaker 3: go out there and beat the hell out of her opponent,

452
00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:13,600
Speaker 3: whether it's Kitlan or anybody else, it doesn't make sense.

453
00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:17,399
Speaker 3: Both of these things are obviously significant motivations in a

454
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:22,200
Speaker 3: professional athlete. You know, the idea that Caitlin is doing

455
00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:26,399
Speaker 3: this now and breaking through now is very much a

456
00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:29,679
Speaker 3: consequence of what we have seen in terms of growth

457
00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:32,159
Speaker 3: of the lead in the years leading up to it.

458
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:36,200
Speaker 3: If we look at the number of games on national

459
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:40,879
Speaker 3: television when Kathy Engelbert took over as commissioner, compared to

460
00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:44,960
Speaker 3: where we are now, it's exponentially larger.

461
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:46,399
Speaker 2: When you look at the fact that.

462
00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:52,240
Speaker 3: There is shoulder programming around WNBA games, that was a thing,

463
00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:55,119
Speaker 3: Oh my god, a WNBA pregame show. No, you couldn't

464
00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:57,520
Speaker 3: imagine it in a million years. Now we see it

465
00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:00,439
Speaker 3: at ESPN, we see it at ION and CBS it

466
00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:04,320
Speaker 3: just last week. And you know, all of these things matter.

467
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:08,879
Speaker 3: We know, for instance, that when shoulder programming was built

468
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:11,920
Speaker 3: and there was cross promotion leading up to the twenty

469
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:15,560
Speaker 3: fifteen Women's World Cup, that is when the US women's

470
00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:19,480
Speaker 3: national team in soccer broke through into the larger culture.

471
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:22,720
Speaker 3: And so there are all of these elements that play apart.

472
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:28,439
Speaker 3: But yes, absolutely there is this awful, ugly undertone that

473
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:31,600
Speaker 3: reflects where the country is here in twenty twenty five.

474
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:35,280
Speaker 3: There are people who are new to the WNBA space

475
00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:38,160
Speaker 3: who are fans, and there are people who have entered

476
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:41,640
Speaker 3: the WNBA space because it is part of broader culture

477
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:46,120
Speaker 3: and using this as an opportunity to attack women who

478
00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:51,120
Speaker 3: are overwhelmingly black women in the WNBA. And those two

479
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:55,040
Speaker 3: things are both true at the same time, and pretending

480
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:58,320
Speaker 3: one or the other doesn't exist is doing a disservice

481
00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:00,320
Speaker 3: to the current moment that we're in.

482
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:02,920
Speaker 1: Completely agree. I really liked what you had to say

483
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:07,080
Speaker 1: about DJ Carrington being assigned to guard Caitlin Clark and

484
00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:09,320
Speaker 1: then afterwards being asked about her in a way that

485
00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:12,320
Speaker 1: felt in congruous with the job she'd just been assigned.

486
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:16,439
Speaker 1: You wrote, was it difficult for Carrington to effusively praise

487
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:19,160
Speaker 1: Clark even as she fulfilled the obligation of her job

488
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:22,200
Speaker 1: to battle her fiercely on the court? Of course? Why

489
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:25,399
Speaker 1: was that even her responsibility? And I think that's something

490
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:28,960
Speaker 1: that stands out to me is players can be grateful

491
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:33,440
Speaker 1: for the attention Caitlin brings and also be frustrated if

492
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:35,800
Speaker 1: that's the only thing they're asked about. I've heard of

493
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:39,400
Speaker 1: players in the league tell reporters, I'm happy to sit

494
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:42,200
Speaker 1: down with, you know, Kaitlin Clark questions, And maybe that's

495
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:44,320
Speaker 1: going too far. And I can get why that's frustrating

496
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:47,159
Speaker 1: for the reporter, but also maybe if you don't say that,

497
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:49,200
Speaker 1: you sit down and you answer ten straight questions about

498
00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:52,119
Speaker 1: another player and not yourself, and you ask, what are

499
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 1: we getting at here? Are we really trying to uplift

500
00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:58,080
Speaker 1: the league, spotlight other players, get everyone to watch more,

501
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:02,040
Speaker 1: or are we operating to idolize a single individual and

502
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:05,440
Speaker 1: keep her separate from the whole. And I think that's

503
00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:08,879
Speaker 1: a job that's still happening now. I think that's a

504
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:12,439
Speaker 1: conflict we're all still feeling. I got frustrated last year

505
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:14,680
Speaker 1: when I wanted to get excited about Caitlin, and if

506
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 1: I did, I was accused of being quote unquote on

507
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:20,080
Speaker 1: a side of the larger thing. And then if I

508
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:21,639
Speaker 1: didn't cover her, then I was accused of being on

509
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:25,200
Speaker 1: the other side and actively working against her. So we're

510
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:27,360
Speaker 1: so sick of that. And I think it's gotten better

511
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:29,480
Speaker 1: this year, but maybe just because she's been injured, so

512
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:32,040
Speaker 1: there's been fewer opportunities for people to lose their shit

513
00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:36,560
Speaker 1: over stuff. That's just basketball. Has writing the book changed

514
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:38,720
Speaker 1: your coverage of Caitlin day to day at all?

515
00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:42,120
Speaker 3: No, not at all, which has been a delightful part

516
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:44,920
Speaker 3: of it. And it reflects the mission that we have

517
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:46,960
Speaker 3: over at the next which is to make sure that

518
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:50,399
Speaker 3: the type of coverage that Caitlin Clark deserves is the

519
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:53,159
Speaker 3: type of coverage that we need to see throughout the league.

520
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:55,720
Speaker 3: And the stars are going to get more coverage than

521
00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:58,359
Speaker 3: the role players, but to make sure that everybody is

522
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:00,960
Speaker 3: being covered is something significant.

523
00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:02,919
Speaker 2: And this is a critical story.

524
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:05,520
Speaker 3: I mean, to your point that you just made is

525
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 3: very amusing to me to be in the middle of

526
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:12,200
Speaker 3: writing a book about Caitlin Clark and to say, oh wow,

527
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:14,560
Speaker 3: I feel like these people are going too far in

528
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:18,200
Speaker 3: terms of isolating focus on Caitlin Clark.

529
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:19,360
Speaker 2: There's a very.

530
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:23,560
Speaker 3: Strange moment to be in. But you know, again, it

531
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:28,080
Speaker 3: comes back to are we treating Caitlin Clark like she

532
00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:32,680
Speaker 3: is the sum total and the only reason for anyone

533
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:33,879
Speaker 3: to pay attention.

534
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:34,679
Speaker 2: To this league.

535
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 3: That's insane And we know this is and I know

536
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 3: this is someone who's been privileged to cover this lead

537
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:44,040
Speaker 3: for over a decade, and so it's getting the opportunity

538
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:47,200
Speaker 3: to see she is growing an audience. I mean, listen,

539
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:49,280
Speaker 3: I wrote about this in the book, but one of

540
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:53,440
Speaker 3: the most satisfying things for me was at Caitlin Clark's

541
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:54,320
Speaker 3: pro debut.

542
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:56,360
Speaker 2: Two point one million.

543
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:59,440
Speaker 3: People also got to see Alssa Thomas put up a

544
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:03,680
Speaker 3: triple doll, which is for some reason normal for Lysa Thomas,

545
00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:06,680
Speaker 3: but for you know, those of us were humans instead

546
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:09,960
Speaker 3: of immortals. That's a crazy thing to conceive of. And

547
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:13,520
Speaker 3: so you know, there are all these ancillary effects, and

548
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:16,400
Speaker 3: for positive and for negative as well, right, and and

549
00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:19,479
Speaker 3: so I do I think about someone like a Djna

550
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:23,560
Speaker 3: Carrington who had to work her way into this regular opportunity,

551
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:26,560
Speaker 3: somebody who had the privilege of covering dating back to college,

552
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 3: and so what kind of player she was, you know

553
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 3: in championship teams. She is now at a moment where, yeah,

554
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 3: like you said, simultaneously, she's going to get more opportunity,

555
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:41,600
Speaker 3: She's going to get more financial reward. The league is

556
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 3: going to right size financially to where it needs to be,

557
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:48,200
Speaker 3: where it ought to have always been. But yeah, I

558
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:50,959
Speaker 3: could also see her being very tired of the tenth

559
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:53,480
Speaker 3: Caitlin Clark question and when it's when it's framed in

560
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:56,040
Speaker 3: poor in bad faith, then.

561
00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:57,680
Speaker 2: That's a whole other question.

562
00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:00,959
Speaker 1: For sure. You know, I actually wrote a coll thesis

563
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:05,960
Speaker 1: on Michael Jordan and his intersection with cable becoming global

564
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:09,480
Speaker 1: and global capitalism and how his arrival was as much

565
00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:14,600
Speaker 1: about him being an unbelievable player, being charming, telegenic, all

566
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:17,720
Speaker 1: the other things, but also that the world was pivoting

567
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:20,520
Speaker 1: at this moment, at the right time for him to explode.

568
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:24,479
Speaker 1: And I think writing about Caitlin Clark in this moment

569
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:29,440
Speaker 1: is that conversation. It's not just singling out one person,

570
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:32,000
Speaker 1: but it's this one person in this moment is having

571
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 1: this impact. And you mentioned Molly Bolan earlier. There's a

572
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:36,960
Speaker 1: great espn. I think it's one of the nine for

573
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:42,080
Speaker 1: nine stories about her, and if you don't know about her,

574
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 1: you would have your mind blown by the statistics and

575
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:49,520
Speaker 1: the ability. And she was Kaitlyn Clark, but she didn't

576
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:52,000
Speaker 1: end up like Caitlin Clark because she didn't arrive in

577
00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:54,480
Speaker 1: the same moment that Caitlyn did. And that's why I

578
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:56,960
Speaker 1: think the conversations about Caitlin and the moment that we're

579
00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 1: having in women's sports are so necessary and shouldn't be

580
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:01,520
Speaker 1: shy away away from because we're afraid of putting a

581
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:03,760
Speaker 1: spotlight in one player. But I wanted to just read

582
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:07,120
Speaker 1: this quickly. A biography in a program for a tournament

583
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:10,320
Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty three that Molly Bolan played in. Read

584
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:13,680
Speaker 1: three year pro a high school All American. Molly averaged

585
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:18,440
Speaker 1: fifty four point eight points per game and hit a

586
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:22,240
Speaker 1: record high of eighty three points as a senior. Just

587
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:27,040
Speaker 1: an unbelievable score. Whatever you think Caitlin Clark is doing,

588
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 1: she's not averaging fifty four point eight points per game.

589
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:35,000
Speaker 1: And there's a really incredible story around Molly having to

590
00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:38,680
Speaker 1: try to sell calendars and other things to help promote

591
00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:41,680
Speaker 1: her ability to play so she could keep playing. The

592
00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:44,600
Speaker 1: end of her bio says she's working construction and Riverside,

593
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:47,920
Speaker 1: And that was your point. That's what it meant to

594
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:50,160
Speaker 1: be Caitlin Clark in nineteen eighty three, is you're working

595
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:52,360
Speaker 1: construction in Riverside and then when you go hoop you

596
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:55,320
Speaker 1: get fifty plus points. And the difference between what it

597
00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 1: means to be great now and what it meant to

598
00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:00,680
Speaker 1: be great then is something to celebrate. And when we

599
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 1: can strip away all the bullshit around Caitlin. We can't

600
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 1: celebrate it, which is I think what you're trying to

601
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:06,719
Speaker 1: do with this book. Here's a whole bunch of context

602
00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:09,720
Speaker 1: so that when I tell you about Caitlin you could

603
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:12,160
Speaker 1: enjoy it. Did you get to talk to Caitlin much

604
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:12,840
Speaker 1: for the book.

605
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, And she understands that she is standing on the

606
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 3: shoulders of the people who came before her, and she

607
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:23,520
Speaker 3: knows about stories like Molly's, and she knows.

608
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:25,320
Speaker 1: About and there's pictures of them together.

609
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 2: That's right, that's right.

610
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 3: And to see that come full circle, I mean that

611
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:33,080
Speaker 3: moment you talked about. I've had the ability to talk

612
00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:36,840
Speaker 3: to and cover Molly for many years, and we dedicate

613
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:40,360
Speaker 3: a significant portion of our coverage to the WBL and

614
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:43,920
Speaker 3: to those stories of that lead, which there is no

615
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 3: WNBA without the WBL from nineteen seventy eight through nineteen

616
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:50,239
Speaker 3: eighty one. And we have a special section over at

617
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:52,120
Speaker 3: the next about it. And I say all that to

618
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:54,640
Speaker 3: say I knew Molly, I knew her story, I.

619
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:55,320
Speaker 2: Know it well.

620
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:58,880
Speaker 3: And yet I'm in the Iowa Women's Center researching for

621
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:01,760
Speaker 3: this book. I come across this clip as part of

622
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:04,320
Speaker 3: the molleyball and papers that are in there, and it

623
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 3: just it hits you just to see that that after

624
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 3: all this she's working as a house painter, what is

625
00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:14,280
Speaker 3: the prime of her basketball career. And so yes, there

626
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 3: there Again, I think there is a misunderstanding of the

627
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:24,840
Speaker 3: way in which most people are processing this Caitlin Clark moment.

628
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:28,560
Speaker 3: Within the game of women's basketball, there is an understanding

629
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 3: of a yes and mentality when it comes to it,

630
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:35,840
Speaker 3: you know, And so from that perspective, I think it

631
00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:38,760
Speaker 3: was important that people understand, you know, we talk about

632
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:40,400
Speaker 3: all the time at the next but we want to

633
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 3: live within the dray area that it's okay if the

634
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:47,160
Speaker 3: player you're going to cover goes, doesn't go for forty

635
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:50,240
Speaker 3: or has an offer or anything like that, that's okay.

636
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 3: We're not telling the story of player axes amazing or

637
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:55,320
Speaker 3: player axes the worst.

638
00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:56,680
Speaker 2: It's here's what's.

639
00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:59,520
Speaker 3: Going on with player X right now, and so making

640
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:02,280
Speaker 3: sure that we're able to do that again, the broader

641
00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 3: context time is Caitlin Clark comes of age at a moment,

642
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:11,920
Speaker 3: the first moment that ESPN broadcasts all of the women's

643
00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:16,200
Speaker 3: NCAA tournament, the entirety that doesn't happen until twenty twenty one.

644
00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:19,879
Speaker 3: This comes at a moment where we are seeing understanding

645
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:23,400
Speaker 3: the gaps between the men's and women's Final four, right

646
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 3: up to the point that the logo had to be changed.

647
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:28,759
Speaker 3: It was the final four in the women's Final four,

648
00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:31,920
Speaker 3: and the NCAA finally got around to, oh, yeah, we

649
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:34,480
Speaker 3: can actually call it the men's instead of making it

650
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:37,520
Speaker 3: obvious in our branding that women's is the other.

651
00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 2: And speaking of.

652
00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:43,360
Speaker 3: Branding, March Madness branding was finally being used by the NCAA.

653
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:46,960
Speaker 3: What an owned goal for the NCAA say, we're going

654
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:51,640
Speaker 3: to not use that branding on our own women's basketball tournament.

655
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 3: So all of which is to say, this is Caitlin's moment.

656
00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 3: Caitlin is the transcendent athlete who has taken advantage of this.

657
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:00,239
Speaker 3: I spent a lot of time thinking about my time

658
00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:03,120
Speaker 3: covering Brianna Stewart, and if it had been Brianna Stuart

659
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:06,400
Speaker 3: when this happened, she would have broken through. If it

660
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:08,719
Speaker 3: had been in twenty ten, it would have been maya more.

661
00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:10,799
Speaker 3: If it had been in twenty oh four, it would

662
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:13,720
Speaker 3: have been Diana Taraji. And if it had been nineteen

663
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:15,480
Speaker 3: seventy eight, it would have been Molly Bowling.

664
00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:19,759
Speaker 1: I want to ask, there's a I don't know if

665
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:22,200
Speaker 1: competing is the right word, But there's another Caitlin Clark

666
00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:24,640
Speaker 1: book from Christine Brennan coming on around the same time.

667
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:27,320
Speaker 1: Why are the covers basically identical? Can you explain to

668
00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:31,040
Speaker 1: us is there some sort of like photo rights only

669
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:37,640
Speaker 1: using this particular game uniform ball position, because they're almost

670
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:38,800
Speaker 1: the same covers.

671
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:42,120
Speaker 2: It's amusing to see, I know the truth that.

672
00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:44,360
Speaker 1: Is amusing the word you first thought of, or have

673
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:45,920
Speaker 1: you come around defining an amusing?

674
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:46,319
Speaker 2: It is?

675
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:49,719
Speaker 3: No, No, I like what I think it's funny to

676
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:51,839
Speaker 3: be honest with you. No, I just I haven't had

677
00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:57,520
Speaker 3: any contact. You know, Christine, someone who I've certainly been

678
00:35:57,560 --> 00:35:59,719
Speaker 3: in contact with in the past, and you know I

679
00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:05,520
Speaker 3: would anybody and everyone Locke covering women's basketball. There needs

680
00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:07,680
Speaker 3: to be more. I'm not of the belief there needs

681
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:10,640
Speaker 3: to be one book anymore than we want to have

682
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:14,600
Speaker 3: one reporter who is covering at any given time. But no,

683
00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:18,200
Speaker 3: it's as I understand it, it's a coincidence, but I

684
00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:20,440
Speaker 3: haven't been able to speak to that specifically.

685
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:23,600
Speaker 1: Well, we're excited for everybody to get to read it.

686
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:27,040
Speaker 1: June seventeenth is the date that the book comes out. Howard,

687
00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:28,799
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, not just for coming on, but

688
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:31,560
Speaker 1: for all you've done for the game and for furthering

689
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:33,719
Speaker 1: what we try to do here as well, which is

690
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:35,600
Speaker 1: how do we give everyone the stars, stake, stats and

691
00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:38,120
Speaker 1: stories every single day to keep up with and care

692
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:39,920
Speaker 1: about women's sports. And you've been doing that for a

693
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:40,440
Speaker 1: long time.

694
00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:42,920
Speaker 2: Well, Sarah, thank you for everything you guys do.

695
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:47,880
Speaker 1: Thanks so much to Howard for taking the time to chat.

696
00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:50,319
Speaker 1: We got to take another quick break when we come back.

697
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:54,359
Speaker 1: What the fact that puts the discrepancy between WNBA and

698
00:36:54,600 --> 00:37:08,279
Speaker 1: MNBA salaries in perspective? Welcome back slices. It's time for

699
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:12,360
Speaker 1: another What the fact? As folks who've been around the

700
00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:15,080
Speaker 1: women's sports space for some time now, we've seen all

701
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:18,400
Speaker 1: sorts of gender pay gaps from soccer to tennis, to

702
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:22,120
Speaker 1: golf and more. Women and nonsense, male athletes always seem

703
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:24,319
Speaker 1: to get the short end of the stick. This, of course,

704
00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:27,760
Speaker 1: parallels the traditional labor market, where women still earn only

705
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:31,200
Speaker 1: eighty four cents for every dollar a man earns. Today,

706
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:34,160
Speaker 1: I want to talk about the pay gap in pro basketball.

707
00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:39,080
Speaker 1: Claudia Golden, a labor economist, economic historian, and Harvard professor,

708
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:41,479
Speaker 1: wrote a guest essay in The New York Times last

709
00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:45,440
Speaker 1: week laying out just how underpaid WNBA players are, and

710
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:48,640
Speaker 1: she brought the data and facts. Y'all, let's start with

711
00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:53,040
Speaker 1: one of those facts. The average MNBA player's salary, approximately

712
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 1: ten million dollars in the twenty twenty five season, is

713
00:37:56,320 --> 00:38:00,880
Speaker 1: eighty times the average WNBA players salary about one hundred

714
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:03,520
Speaker 1: and twenty seven thousand for the twenty twenty four campaign

715
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:10,160
Speaker 1: eighty times eight zero. And here's another from Golden quote.

716
00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:13,880
Speaker 1: A key fact is that the NBA and WNBA resemble

717
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 1: a joint venture in which the league's individual finances are

718
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:21,000
Speaker 1: not transparent to the public. The NBA owns around half

719
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:23,920
Speaker 1: of the WNBA and helps a portion money between the

720
00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:27,800
Speaker 1: two leagues. Last year, the NBA negotiated joint television contracts

721
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:30,799
Speaker 1: for the leagues, in which Disney, NBC and Amazon Prime

722
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 1: Video agreed to pay the two leagues roughly seventy seven

723
00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:36,960
Speaker 1: billion dollars for the right to show their games over

724
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:41,160
Speaker 1: eleven years. The gap in player salaries appears to reflect

725
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:45,640
Speaker 1: the highly unequal way that NBA owners divide the league's

726
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:49,800
Speaker 1: revenue end quote. So Golden worked with the WNBA Players

727
00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:53,000
Speaker 1: Association over the past year to dive into the relationship

728
00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:56,960
Speaker 1: between player salaries and the revenue, viewership and attendance numbers

729
00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 1: in the MNBA and WNBA, using those numbers to decipher

730
00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:04,000
Speaker 1: what a reasonable gap between the salaries might be. The

731
00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:07,120
Speaker 1: most significant factor she looked at in each league's revenue

732
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:10,160
Speaker 1: is viewership, which is what makes big networks pay big

733
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:13,840
Speaker 1: bucks to sell ads during games. From Golden's article quote,

734
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:17,920
Speaker 1: the average WNBA game recently drew about seventy seven percent

735
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:20,879
Speaker 1: of the eyeballs for the average NBA game. The gap

736
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:23,800
Speaker 1: in total eyeballs per player is much larger because the

737
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:27,440
Speaker 1: NBA has more games per season and longer games. Taking

738
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:30,120
Speaker 1: into account all of these differences shows that the WNBA

739
00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:33,600
Speaker 1: attracts about thirty percent, or roughly one third as many

740
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:37,120
Speaker 1: eyeballs per player as the NBA does. This ratio is

741
00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:41,120
Speaker 1: a reasonable estimate of the actual relationship between WNBA and

742
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:45,440
Speaker 1: NBA broadcast revenue per player, and by extension, what WNBA

743
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:49,120
Speaker 1: players should receive in salary relative to NBA players end quote.

744
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:52,520
Speaker 1: Another important factor in the dollars and cents is attendance.

745
00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:54,800
Speaker 1: So here's what Golden had to say about how butts

746
00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 1: in seats should affect money in pockets. Quote. In twenty

747
00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:02,280
Speaker 1: twenty four, for example, the WNBA's total attendance was about

748
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:05,480
Speaker 1: one tenth as large as the NBA's attendance. Adjusting for

749
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:08,080
Speaker 1: the fewer teams in the WNBA shows that it attracts

750
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:11,560
Speaker 1: about one quarter of the attendants per player in the NBA.

751
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:15,640
Speaker 1: All these numbers suggest that the average WNBA salary should

752
00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:18,240
Speaker 1: be roughly one quarter to one third of the average

753
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:22,360
Speaker 1: NBA salary to achieve pay equity end quote. We've all

754
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:24,960
Speaker 1: known that WNBA players were not making enough of a

755
00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:28,759
Speaker 1: percentage of revenue when compared to their MNBA counterparts, but

756
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:32,200
Speaker 1: Golden has laid it out with facts and data. It

757
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:35,840
Speaker 1: should be one quarter to one third, not one eightieth

758
00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:37,120
Speaker 1: what the guys are making.

759
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:37,759
Speaker 3: Well.

760
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:39,560
Speaker 1: Link to Golden's essay at our show notes so you

761
00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:43,440
Speaker 1: can read it for yourself. Her concluding paragraph really hammers

762
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:46,280
Speaker 1: the point home she wrote. Quote, the world of women's

763
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:50,040
Speaker 1: professional basketball is ripe for an economic update that better

764
00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:53,720
Speaker 1: reflects its influence and irresistibility, but it has not happened.

765
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:57,040
Speaker 1: Yet the people who run the NBA and WNBA are

766
00:40:57,120 --> 00:41:00,800
Speaker 1: instead badly underpaying the women who enter tain and thrill

767
00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:05,640
Speaker 1: us with their feats of athleticism. End quote. Yet again, y'all,

768
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:10,799
Speaker 1: I'm screaming, what the fact? This what the fact? Brought

769
00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:13,399
Speaker 1: to you by Elf Beauty. And here's another fact. When

770
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Speaker 1: a company reflects the community it serves, it makes elf

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Speaker 1: in sense, especially when it starts in the highest seats

772
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Speaker 1: of decision making. ELF Beauty, who has delivered twenty five

773
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774
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Speaker 1: is one of only five publicly traded companies in the

775
00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:31,080
Speaker 1: US with a board of directors that is sixty seven

776
00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:34,319
Speaker 1: percent women and forty four percent diverse. It is the

777
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:37,920
Speaker 1: only cosmetics brand to grow market share every single quarter

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00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:41,160
Speaker 1: for the past twenty five quarters. Elf is for every eye,

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Speaker 1: lip and face, and when you are for the every

780
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Speaker 1: everyone wins. Learn more about what Elf Beauty is doing

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Speaker 1: to help diverse by corporate boards visit changethboardgame dot com.

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Speaker 1: We always love that your listing slices, but we want

783
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:56,000
Speaker 1: you to get in the game every day too, So

784
00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:58,520
Speaker 1: here's our good game play of the day pre order

785
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:00,880
Speaker 1: Howard's book, we'll link to a site where you can

786
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:03,720
Speaker 1: snag your copy. In our show notes and we always

787
00:42:03,719 --> 00:42:05,000
Speaker 1: love to hear from you, so hit us up on

788
00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:07,920
Speaker 1: email good game at wondermedianetwork dot com or leave us

789
00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:10,400
Speaker 1: a voicemail at eight seven two two o four fifty

790
00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:14,280
Speaker 1: seventy and don't forget to subscribe, Rate and review. It's easy.

791
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:18,239
Speaker 1: Watch the ultra runner who stopped to breastfeed three times

792
00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:22,080
Speaker 1: and still one, rating ten out of ten. What Can't

793
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:27,240
Speaker 1: Women Do? Review? At the recent Ultratrail Snowdonia one hundred

794
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:30,760
Speaker 1: kilometer race in northern Wales, forty two year old runner

795
00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:34,120
Speaker 1: and new mom Stephanie Case paused at three different times

796
00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:36,720
Speaker 1: during the race to breastfeed her six month old daughter,

797
00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:40,759
Speaker 1: and not only still finished, she placed first among female competitors.

798
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:44,160
Speaker 1: That's sixty two plus miles of running six months after

799
00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:47,879
Speaker 1: baby and balancing both roles at once with grace. Case

800
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:50,000
Speaker 1: told NPR of the photos of her mid race that

801
00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:53,239
Speaker 1: went viral, they show quote an athlete being a mom

802
00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:56,240
Speaker 1: at the same time, and those things not actually competing

803
00:42:56,239 --> 00:42:58,560
Speaker 1: with one another. We don't have to lose ourselves in

804
00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:01,120
Speaker 1: becoming a mom, and we can keep setting big goals

805
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:04,600
Speaker 1: for ourselves end quote. The course has thirteen hundred and

806
00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:07,520
Speaker 1: twenty five feet of elevation gain, with runners traversing the

807
00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:11,120
Speaker 1: tallest mountain in Wales and traveling rough and tough terrain.

808
00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:14,799
Speaker 1: Case stopped at checkpoints at twenty fifty and eighty kilometers

809
00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:17,560
Speaker 1: to nurse her daughter, Pepper, and then jump right back

810
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:20,760
Speaker 1: into the race and the story somehow gets better. Case

811
00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:23,319
Speaker 1: ran while on parental leave from her job working for

812
00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:27,360
Speaker 1: the United Nations as a human rights lawyer per NPR quote.

813
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:30,360
Speaker 1: Running long distances helps Case cope with the stress of

814
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:35,320
Speaker 1: working in a humanitarian crisis end quote. Case's experiences inspired

815
00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:38,600
Speaker 1: her to found Free to Run, a nonprofit that empowers

816
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:41,239
Speaker 1: girls and young women in conflict areas through running and

817
00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:43,839
Speaker 1: other outdoor activities. So if you want to show love

818
00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:46,600
Speaker 1: to a woman holding it down for moms, for women

819
00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:50,360
Speaker 1: over forty and human rights advocates, go check it out

820
00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:53,000
Speaker 1: free toorun dot org and you can read the whole

821
00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:55,440
Speaker 1: NPR article. We'll link to it in our show notes.

822
00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:58,920
Speaker 1: Now it's your turn, rate and review, y'all. Thanks for listening.

823
00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:02,640
Speaker 1: See you next week. Good game, Howard, good game, Stephanie Case.

824
00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:06,440
Speaker 1: You tech Nik from writing for hours and hours and

825
00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:09,760
Speaker 1: hours on Deadline. I'm telling y'all write a book for yourself.

826
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:14,520
Speaker 1: You'll see. Good Game with Sarah Spain is an iHeart

827
00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:17,960
Speaker 1: women's sports production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment.

828
00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:21,040
Speaker 1: You could find us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

829
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:24,680
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. Production by Wonder Media Network,

830
00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:28,360
Speaker 1: our producers are Alex Azzie and Misha Jones. Our executive

831
00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:32,400
Speaker 1: producers are Christina Everett, Jesse Katz, Jenny Kaplan, and Emily Rudder.

832
00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:35,960
Speaker 1: Our editors are Emily Rudder, Brittany Martinez, Grace Lynch, and

833
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:39,600
Speaker 1: Gianna Palmer. Our associate producer is Lucy Jones and I'm

834
00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:41,000
Speaker 1: your host Sarah Spain