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Speaker 1: Hey, you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My

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Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday,

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Speaker 1: so we're going on into the vault. And what do

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Speaker 1: I see in the vault this time but a bunch

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Speaker 1: of dolphins. That's right, we're going back to February. This

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Speaker 1: was an episode that I did with Christian on John C. Lily.

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Speaker 1: John C. Lily the Psychonaute. Yes, yes, the man has

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Speaker 1: a very fascinating history, from counter espionage researcher for the government,

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Speaker 1: to uh, you know, Maverick and even renegade dolphin researcher

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Speaker 1: to to counterculture icon. Just a fascinating figure to look at,

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Speaker 1: and that's what this episode does. Well, put on your

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Speaker 1: Davy Crockett hat and get ready to listen to John C. Lily.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff

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Speaker 1: Works dot Com. Hey, you're welcome to Stuff to Blow

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Speaker 1: your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I am

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Speaker 1: Christian Sager, and we're going to be talking about a

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Speaker 1: great combination of things today isolation, tanks, dolphins, and psychedelics. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the creature from the Black Lagoon will actually show up

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Speaker 1: Cold War era anti espionage, weird science. It's it's quite

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Speaker 1: a package. You couldn't make this up. Like if you

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Speaker 1: wrote a fictional account of a guy like John C. Lily,

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Speaker 1: it would seem absurd, but this is a life he led.

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Speaker 1: Yeah indeed. I mean even the fictionalized accounts of the man,

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Speaker 1: I feel that they don't quite capture the weirdness and

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Speaker 1: strangeness and just mind expanding awesomeness of his actual story.

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Speaker 1: They don't know. So, but before we roll right in,

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Speaker 1: because I think we should really just dive into the

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Speaker 1: deep end. No pun attended with John C. Lily. Uh

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Speaker 1: do we just want to remind our audience that, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, we don't just do the podcast Stuff to

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Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind mind as a multi media conglomerate, and uh,

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Speaker 1: you can visit us at stuff to Blow your Mind

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Speaker 1: dot com, where you can find blog posts by us.

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Speaker 1: The podcast is obviously there, of course, but for every

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Speaker 1: podcast episode we add related content so in case you're

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Speaker 1: curious about learning more, Uh, there's places that you can go.

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Speaker 1: And then we also do videos as well. That's right.

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Speaker 1: And hey, wherever you listen to it's be it iTunes

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Speaker 1: or uh Spotify or any of the various wonderful platforms

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Speaker 1: out there. You can support the show by simply giving

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Speaker 1: us a positive rating and positive review of the platform

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Speaker 1: allows that kind of interaction. Yeah, and the last thing

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Speaker 1: I'll say is before we get into Lily is don't

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Speaker 1: forget to follow us on social media. If you're on Facebook,

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Speaker 1: you're on Twitter, you're on Tumblr. We're on all those

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Speaker 1: platforms as Blow the Mind. And we don't only post

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Speaker 1: our own stuff, but we curate lots of weird science

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Speaker 1: e bizarre addity type stuff that we find throughout the

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Speaker 1: day as we're doing our research. That's right. So let's

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Speaker 1: talk about Lily first. Why are we covering him because Lily,

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Speaker 1: for people who don't know, comes up frequently. I'd say

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Speaker 1: in the last year of doing the show, he's come

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Speaker 1: up at least four or five times. Yeah, and in

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Speaker 1: past episodes, I'm I know that we haven't had at

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Speaker 1: least three episodes that have dealt with him, at least

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Speaker 1: in small portions. Right. Yeah, you guys did a dolphin episode.

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Speaker 1: You and Julie did a dolphin episode, and then there

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Speaker 1: was the what was it, the like kind of crazy

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Speaker 1: rock star life of Scientists. Yeah, yeah, we did one

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Speaker 1: that was just kind of a sampler platter of different

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Speaker 1: real life scientists that had sort of a weird side

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Speaker 1: to them. But Lily is one of those individuals first

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Speaker 1: of all, that, as we've been saying, deserves a deeper dive.

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Speaker 1: He deserves a closer look because he was just he

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Speaker 1: was into too many things. He really lived too many

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Speaker 1: lives to just try and condense it to a quick

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Speaker 1: little segment about his psychedelic dolphin research, which is what

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Speaker 1: most people may think of when we mentioned John C. Lewis.

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Speaker 1: This is one of those moments too where I feel

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Speaker 1: like the podcast format is really at an advantage here

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Speaker 1: because in our ca you know, like lots of the

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Speaker 1: stuff that I've read about Lily, like you said, either

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Speaker 1: focuses on one aspect of his work or another. Right,

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Speaker 1: It's like it's either like the isolation tanks or it's

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Speaker 1: just the dolphins. But I feel like we have the

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Speaker 1: opportunity here to like gather a lot of different resources,

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Speaker 1: come together and kind of try to piece it all

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Speaker 1: together and figure out this like epic figure somehow, and

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Speaker 1: especially the like like you said to like um for

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Speaker 1: those of you who don't know, there's been two feature

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Speaker 1: films at least two that we're made based on Lily

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Speaker 1: as a character. The first was Day of the Dolphin

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Speaker 1: with George C. Scott, and then the second one is

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Speaker 1: Altered States, of Course, which is you know, we're huge

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Speaker 1: fans of here, and it stars William her you know,

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Speaker 1: of course, as this Lily kind of figure who takes

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Speaker 1: acid in isolation tanks and then finds himself devolving basically

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Speaker 1: right into various forms of proto humanity. Yeah, so he's

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Speaker 1: he's he's a figure that hit the castle, a large

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Speaker 1: shadow across are popular culture, and I think that can

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Speaker 1: also be a stumbling block because you think of you

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Speaker 1: might think of that older uh John C. Lily kind

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Speaker 1: of a post hippie nut job with with a coonskin

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Speaker 1: cap talking about expanded consciousness and perhaps being something of

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Speaker 1: a pariah. Uh. Two individuals who were working in legitimate

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Speaker 1: scientific areas that he was once a part of. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there were certainly people who did not embrace the direction

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Speaker 1: that he went in towards the latter part of his career.

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Speaker 1: But so this is what's interesting to me about him,

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Speaker 1: especially like once we got into I knew the surface

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Speaker 1: level stuff, but going back and looking at his early

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Speaker 1: life and how he started off and how kind of

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Speaker 1: standardized his scientific career was to begin with. It's really

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Speaker 1: fascinating to see where he goes and the kind of

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Speaker 1: journey that he takes everybody on. Yeah, indeed, I mean,

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Speaker 1: this is a guy that was trained in medicine, psycho analysis, biophysics,

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Speaker 1: um and he went from being published as a researcher

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Speaker 1: in scientific journals to writing his own books about spirit

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Speaker 1: ruality in the self. And one of the things that's

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Speaker 1: really important about Lily I think to just like our

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Speaker 1: general culture today, it's it's hard to think of this

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Speaker 1: because it's from from my entire life. It's been this way.

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Speaker 1: But people didn't used to think of dolphins as being

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Speaker 1: intelligent mammals, that we're cute and cuddly and that we

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Speaker 1: should try to keep from being killed in the ocean. Right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's right. I mean you go back far enough. There

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Speaker 1: are various myths that involve humans turning into dolphins or

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Speaker 1: vice versa, but generally speaking, before the nineteen fifties, dolphins

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Speaker 1: were a pest of fishermen. They were some they were

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Speaker 1: a fatty creature you might render down for various products,

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Speaker 1: but nobody was giving a lot of thought to what

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Speaker 1: they were thinking or indeed what their consciousness might consist of. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and so almost every account that I read about Lily

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Speaker 1: traces his research with dolphins to how we treat dolphins

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Speaker 1: today even too, you know, good or bad however you

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Speaker 1: think of it, of like theme parks of like Sea

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Speaker 1: World and things like that, but like, uh, the interaction

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Speaker 1: that human beings have with dolphins or other male uh

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Speaker 1: mammals in the water like whales, uh, you know, in

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Speaker 1: in that kind of a setting, you know. Um, he

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Speaker 1: really changed the way that we considered them as I

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Speaker 1: guess partners on Earth is how he would probably put

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Speaker 1: it right. Yeah, it's hard to imagine where we'd be

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Speaker 1: right now, uh, considering dolphin intelligence without Lily, I mean

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Speaker 1: I think, I mean, I think we would definitely get

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Speaker 1: to this point where we we recognize the intelligence of

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Speaker 1: the dolphin, uh and and even engaging discussions about its

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Speaker 1: potential personhood. But would we have gotten there as quickly?

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Speaker 1: Would we have? Would we have gotten there with as

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Speaker 1: much media attention? And it all really came down to

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Speaker 1: him wanting to map human consciousness, you know, the dolphin work,

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Speaker 1: the isolation tanks taking NSTI. All of it really boiled

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Speaker 1: back to his medical background and just trying to figure

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Speaker 1: out like the physicality of human consciousness where it was. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he in in his um and later on, certainly by

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Speaker 1: by the nineteen seventies, he would often talk about the

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Speaker 1: province of the mind, which we reference in the title

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Speaker 1: to this episode. Yeah, so here's the Lily quote that

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Speaker 1: comes from you know what we what We've based the

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Speaker 1: title in the episode from he says, in the province

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Speaker 1: of the mind, what one believes to be true is

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Speaker 1: true or becomes true with certain limits to be found

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Speaker 1: experientially and experimentally. These limbs are further beliefs to be

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Speaker 1: transcended in the mind. There are no limits. That was

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Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy two, So this was this was a

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Speaker 1: post Dolphin work going into LSD work. I'm assuming, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I think it This is a It's a great

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Speaker 1: quote because it mentions this idea of the province of

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Speaker 1: the mind, something that he all of his work throughout

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Speaker 1: his life, as you mentioned, seems to be questing for.

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Speaker 1: And then it also touches on this idea of subjective truth,

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Speaker 1: which becomes an increasingly important part of his work and

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Speaker 1: at times a definite flaw in his scientific work. Right. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and it's especially important to consider too, I mean, like

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Speaker 1: we say, his whole life here. I read an account

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Speaker 1: that when he was sixteen years old he was first

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Speaker 1: starting to think about this in journals and things like

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Speaker 1: that that he was working on, like as a kid.

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Speaker 1: This was something that concerned Lily up until his death.

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Speaker 1: So let's, uh, let's let's back up a bit then

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Speaker 1: and just deal with the Lily timeline. Let's talk about

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Speaker 1: where he came from and uh and take listeners and

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Speaker 1: ourselves on a journey through his life whereas much of

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Speaker 1: it as we can actually digest in about an hour's time. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I'll say this too before we get into it.

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Speaker 1: I found that there were a lot of differing accounts too.

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Speaker 1: I mean, he was alive at just the right moment

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Speaker 1: in time where it was. It wasn't like we couldn't

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Speaker 1: log his life as we do now with social media,

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean. And there's like some different accounts. So,

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Speaker 1: like I said, when he's sixteen years old, he supposedly

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Speaker 1: wrote this essay. He was born in nineteen fifteen in

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Speaker 1: Saint Paul Minnesota. Uh And and this is the specific

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Speaker 1: a question that was quoted as being the title of

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Speaker 1: his essay, how can the mind render itself sufficiently objective

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Speaker 1: to study itself? That's pretty heavy for a sixteen year old.

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Speaker 1: I don't think I had thoughts like that until much later. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's that's a that that's he was thinking big for

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Speaker 1: for that age. Really. Yeah, unless that's some like revisionist

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Speaker 1: history on his part. But Uh. The other thing that

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Speaker 1: I thought was really interesting is my impression from the

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Speaker 1: readings is that Lily came from a very wealthy family

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Speaker 1: I think, UH and his father, it sounds like, wanted

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Speaker 1: him to become a banker, but Lily wanted to be

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Speaker 1: a scientist, and so eventually his father kind of came

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Speaker 1: around and supported him going to school to study science,

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Speaker 1: but also backed him financially and some of his research

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Speaker 1: after school as well. Yeah, that's the that's the sense

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Speaker 1: that I get from some of the resources who were

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Speaker 1: looking at uh. And I do have to to mention

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Speaker 1: that as far as we know, there's not a good,

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Speaker 1: like solid concise biography out there, not yet, hopefully somebody's

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Speaker 1: working on it. There are some very fine resources that

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Speaker 1: we used for this episode and will cite those as

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Speaker 1: we go. Yeah, this is a book slash movie dying

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Speaker 1: to be made. Yeah yeah, I I think that, like

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Speaker 1: in the same way that characters like Reich that we've

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Speaker 1: talked about on the show before Shulgun just make for

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Speaker 1: great like potential fictionalizations. Uh, and I think you know,

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Speaker 1: I just learned this after we recorded the Reich episode.

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Speaker 1: There's a feature film coming out about Reich. Oh yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 1: When I was searching for artwork for it, photos from

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Speaker 1: the premier came out. Alright, So Lily goes on. He

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Speaker 1: gets his physics degree from cal Tech in night, receives

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Speaker 1: a doctorate in medicine from the University of Pennsylvania two

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Speaker 1: and as a faculty member he studies biophysics and psycho

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Speaker 1: analysis at the University of Pennsylvania. Is primarily interested in

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Speaker 1: the physical structures of the brain where that the conscious

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Speaker 1: self might be found. So that's pretty interesting in that,

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Speaker 1: like he got his he got his doctorate in medicine, right,

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Speaker 1: and then he continues to do research or take classes

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Speaker 1: as well as he's a faculty member. Like my understanding

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Speaker 1: was the psychoanalysis stuff wasn't quite yet in the field

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Speaker 1: when he was in school, but he's still dabbling and

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Speaker 1: learning more and adding everything to his resume. Yeah. From

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Speaker 1: an early point, we're seeing a guy who has this

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Speaker 1: goal in mind, this mystery that he wants to crack,

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Speaker 1: and he's gonna throw everything he has at it. And

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Speaker 1: he's gonna throw it. He's gonna utilize what whatever tools

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Speaker 1: he can draw on, be they UH, disciplines, pharmaceuticals, technologies.

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Speaker 1: We see this throughout his life. Yeah. And in some

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Speaker 1: cases it's also like where he's going to get the

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Speaker 1: support from. Right. I think all of us who have

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Speaker 1: like large scale creative endeavors that we're trying to push

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Speaker 1: and can't find necessarily the financial backing end up making

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Speaker 1: compromises and uh, come World War two, Lily ends up

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Speaker 1: doing research UH. Mainly it sounds like on the physiology

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Speaker 1: of high altitude of flying, uh, specifically for the Air Force,

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Speaker 1: and he was inventing different devices to measure GA gas

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Speaker 1: pressure for those purposes. UM. And this is one of

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Speaker 1: the first times apparently that he used himself as a

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Speaker 1: guinea pig, uh Lily at which he would go on

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Speaker 1: to do quite a bit later in his career. In fact,

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Speaker 1: I think he had sort of a like an ethos

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Speaker 1: surrounding that, right that I can't remember who it was,

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Speaker 1: but I read that he um he he took this

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Speaker 1: from another like kind of big thinker scientist who basically said, like,

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Speaker 1: if you're not willing to experiment on yourself, then you

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Speaker 1: shouldn't be willing to experiment on other human beings. Uh So,

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Speaker 1: and this seems to be the case here where he

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Speaker 1: participated in an experiment where he was studying the effects

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Speaker 1: of explosive decompression on pilots at high altitudes. Uh And

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Speaker 1: by all accounts that I read, this was something that

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Speaker 1: could have killed him, but he went about and did

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Speaker 1: it anyways. And this is in the thirties going into

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Speaker 1: the forties, alright, So after the war, we're getting into

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Speaker 1: the post War War two area. We're getting into the

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Speaker 1: nineteen fifties at a time uh increasingly defined by Cold

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Speaker 1: War paranoia. It is during this area that Lily turns

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Speaker 1: to neuroscience, which is a logical next step in this

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Speaker 1: quest for consciousness. Right, And he's motivated in a large

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Speaker 1: part by pioneering brain surgeon Wilder Penfield at this point.

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Speaker 1: Uh And in short, what he ends up doing is

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Speaker 1: he applies electronic engineering to the monitoring and mapping of

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Speaker 1: the central nervous system, again drawing on the best technology

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Speaker 1: available at the time to try and crack this nut

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Speaker 1: of consciousness. And what I had read this is one

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Speaker 1: of the first sences of his father, sorry, instances of

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Speaker 1: his father funding him. His father helped him pay for

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Speaker 1: the design of something he called the Baba Tron, which

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Speaker 1: was a device for recording the impulses from within a

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Speaker 1: rabbit's brain and they would project these impulses up onto

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Speaker 1: like a television screen as waves. Um. So, the baba

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Speaker 1: Tron included an array of sensors that were this is

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Speaker 1: something we're gonna come back to over and over again

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Speaker 1: with Lily, basically putting electrodes on the surface of the

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Speaker 1: brain of different animals and human beings. Uh. And in

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Speaker 1: nineteen fIF he want he published a paper that showed

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Speaker 1: how to display these patterns in such a way projecting

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Speaker 1: brain electrical activity on a television like screen. Uh. And

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Speaker 1: I recently spent some time in the hospital. I had

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Speaker 1: a family member in I see you, and I thought, wow, like,

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Speaker 1: think of the just the standard hospital machinery we have

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Speaker 1: that are like measuring and showing us things like oxygen

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Speaker 1: levels and and uh, breathing and and and brain activity.

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Speaker 1: You know, Lily was one of the pioneers and that

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Speaker 1: you can thank him for that. This is a guy

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Speaker 1: who who really did like impact our understanding of medicine

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Speaker 1: and of thought. And you know, despite where he went

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Speaker 1: down further in his career, he really did have like

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Speaker 1: some contributions. Yeah, down or or out or out, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: however you want to look at it. Absolutely From here

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Speaker 1: he moves on to the National Institutes of Mental Health

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Speaker 1: or NIM UH, and this is an area where he

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Speaker 1: begins to get into a lot of interest and and

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Speaker 1: at times kind of creepy work. Yeah. And I read

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Speaker 1: an interesting thing that said that one of the reasons

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Speaker 1: why he specifically went for this research position with NIM

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Speaker 1: was that it gave him access to both the National

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Speaker 1: Institute of Neurological Diseases, because that would give him access

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Speaker 1: to resources about the physical brain, but it also gave

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Speaker 1: him access to the National Institute of Mental Health, which

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Speaker 1: focused on the mind, and he really wanted to combine

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Speaker 1: the two uh, and he experimented on living brains with

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Speaker 1: all these different techniques he developed, so you know, we've

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Speaker 1: got the rabbits. We talked about that, but then he

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Speaker 1: moved on to monkeys. His goal was to stimulate monkey

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Speaker 1: brains without causing trauma or damage to their brain tissue.

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Speaker 1: So he was one of the first scientists to locate Uh,

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Speaker 1: this is a monkey brain, not a human brain, obviously,

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Speaker 1: but he located their pain and pleasure centers, and his

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Speaker 1: work there allowed him to map their neural networks and

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Speaker 1: to link sensory events, muscle movement, and other behaviors related

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Speaker 1: to the activity in their brain. This is going to

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Speaker 1: be important later on when we get the dolphins. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and this is my understanding. Some it's pretty invasive surgery

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Speaker 1: at this point in experimentation, and he spends essentially a

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Speaker 1: decade working on it. Here uh again connecting invasive of

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Speaker 1: vivisections of the cranium. And this is where things get

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Speaker 1: into some creepier territory. Um. Again, he's laser focused on

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Speaker 1: his goal, but he is an employ of NIM. He's

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Speaker 1: working in the in the time of nineteen fifties Cold

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Speaker 1: War paranoia. Uh, it's US versus the Soviets. There's they're

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Speaker 1: all these fears of of of mind control, brainwashing, uh,

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Speaker 1: all sorts of strange counter espionage techniques, and according to D.

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Speaker 1: Graham Burnett's excellent paper A Mind in Water, which is

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Speaker 1: published in Ryan Magazine and is available online, one could

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Speaker 1: have linked to it on the landing page. He says.

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Speaker 1: Lily later claimed not to care for this sort of thing,

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Speaker 1: but in his prime as a government employee, he had

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Speaker 1: high level security clearance. J Edgar Hoover knew him by

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Speaker 1: name and was actively involved in research into brainwashing or

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Speaker 1: reprogramming as it was then called, among the cognizanty sleep

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Speaker 1: deprivation and operant controlled of animals with wires implanted in

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Speaker 1: the pain centers of their gray matter. Unquote. Wow, so

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Speaker 1: this gets back to when we were talking about we

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Speaker 1: three on the animal weaponry thing. So, yeah, I can

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Speaker 1: imagine with all the things we learned from that episode

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Speaker 1: of like people stuffing bats into bombs and trying to

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Speaker 1: figure out ways to use bees to attack people, that

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Speaker 1: of course they would be looking at ways to try

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Speaker 1: to stimulate their brains as well. And in the goal here, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the goal here was not just animals but humans. In

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Speaker 1: an unpublished paper of Lily's titled Special Considerations of Modified

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Speaker 1: Human Agents, as reconnaissance and intelligence devices. I really don't

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Speaker 1: have to go much further than that just title, but

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Speaker 1: he talked about such things as the quote covert and

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Speaker 1: relatively safe implantation of electrodes into human brain for the

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Speaker 1: push button control of the totality of motivation and of consciousness.

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Speaker 1: I wonder how much Lily's sort of like beginning work

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Speaker 1: set the stage for brain computer interface work you know

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Speaker 1: that's being studied today, because that's obviously like a big

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Speaker 1: field of um of inquiry right now. Yeah, I mean

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Speaker 1: to to whatever extent his his ideas here were actually

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Speaker 1: applicable given that the technology of the time, and he's

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Speaker 1: certainly foreshadowing where the technology would go. He's certainly dreaming

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Speaker 1: in the in the direction that we're that we're still headed.

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Speaker 1: So one of the things that I was trying to

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Speaker 1: figure out what we're doing the research was whether or

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Speaker 1: not these were pain free methods. And I believe later

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Speaker 1: in his career he definitely wanted to get to a

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Speaker 1: point right Like I mentioned earlier that you know, his

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Speaker 1: goal was not to cause trauma in the monkeys and

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Speaker 1: not to damage their brain tissue. But I imagine it

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Speaker 1: wasn't comfortable having these electrodes stuck in their brains, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I had my understanding. It also depended on what he

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Speaker 1: was working on. So, um, you could use anesthetics on

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Speaker 1: certain animals, but as we'll discuss, there are other animals

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Speaker 1: that that simply stop breathing if you put them under

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Speaker 1: an anesthetic, right. Yeah, And there's always there's a very

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Speaker 1: interesting like, despite his profound respect for dolphins later on,

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Speaker 1: there's some weird stuff that goes on with the dolphin

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Speaker 1: research as well too, in terms of like kind of

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Speaker 1: treating them humanely. Yeah, and uh and and certainly at

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Speaker 1: this point in his career he has he's he's a

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Speaker 1: very unsentimental guy. He's laser focused on this consciousness enigma. Uh.

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Speaker 1: But he's not necessarily he's not he's certainly not the

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Speaker 1: sort of hippie mythic figure counterculture figure we see later on.

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Speaker 1: Quite the opposite. This is a guy who's on first

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Speaker 1: name basis with Jaguar Hoover. He's very much a part

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Speaker 1: of the establishment and kind of a scary part of

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Speaker 1: the establishment. Yeah, and he is going to do what

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Speaker 1: needs to be done to get the results. Right. So

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Speaker 1: it's during this creepy period that little. He first learns

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Speaker 1: from an oceanographer colleague that the largest brains are found

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Speaker 1: in small toothed whales. Intrigued, he sets out to implant

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Speaker 1: electrodes in the brains of captive dolphins at Florida's Marine Studios.

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Speaker 1: Now this place still exists today under the name Marine

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Speaker 1: Land of Florida. Some of our listeners have been there

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Speaker 1: and can speak to it. But at the time they

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Speaker 1: specialized in B movies. Really of particular note, they shot

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Speaker 1: the Creature from the Black Lagoon here and Revenge of

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Speaker 1: the Creature from ninety five. Wow. So John C. Lily

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Speaker 1: was like peripherally involved with like universal horror, specifically the

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Speaker 1: Creature from the Black Lagoon. I would I think you

396
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Speaker 1: might have mentioned this before the podcast. How cool would

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Speaker 1: it be for there to be like a Creature of

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Speaker 1: the Black Lagoon remake that like mixes in some of

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Speaker 1: the John C. Lily ideas of you know, both dolphin

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Speaker 1: human communication but also isolation tanks and hallucinogenics. Yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: And in fact, we'll get back to the creu from

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Speaker 1: the Black Lagoon in a minute, because the connection between

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Speaker 1: Lily and the creature he is even closer than you

404
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Speaker 1: might be thinking, right now, okay, cool, cool, Okay, So

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Speaker 1: he he engages in this work, right, he's uh, he's

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Speaker 1: he's putting the electrodes on the dolphins brains. One of

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Speaker 1: the problems here, as I mentioned, is that dolphins stop

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Speaker 1: breathing when they're under anesthetic. And this has to do

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Speaker 1: with the conscious nature of dolphin respirations that it's it's

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Speaker 1: not as as much of a you know, a subconscious

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Speaker 1: activity is as as it is for us surface dwellers. Um.

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Speaker 1: So it's it's pretty rough work. Dolphins are dying during

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Speaker 1: the experiments, but one of them, before it passes, makes

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Speaker 1: a series of sounds, and Lily has this really this

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Speaker 1: epiphany that he he feels he's listening to the sound

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Speaker 1: that this dolphin is making. It sounds as if they're

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Speaker 1: attempting to mimic his voice. They're attempting to mimic the

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Speaker 1: voice of the other researchers in the room. And and

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Speaker 1: it's just this, this Eureka moment for him. He's been

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Speaker 1: searching for consciousness, searching for for some sort of you know,

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Speaker 1: ultimately connection to another mind, and he feels as if

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Speaker 1: he has glimpsed it. So this is sort of a

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Speaker 1: good segue, I guess then from his dolphin or actually,

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Speaker 1: this isn't even the really scratching the surface of his

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Speaker 1: dolphin research, right, is where he first sort of dabbles

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Speaker 1: in it. Yeah, this is where, yeah, he dabbles in it,

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Speaker 1: and and the light bulb goes off and he realizes,

428
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:28,160
Speaker 1: I have to work with these dolphins. Everything else I'm

429
00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:31,040
Speaker 1: gonna I'm just gonna walk away from because this, this

430
00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:32,720
Speaker 1: is where I need to be. And then, in order

431
00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:37,919
Speaker 1: to facilitate this type of study he develops he invents

432
00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:41,560
Speaker 1: the isolation tank, which most of us know nowadays, right,

433
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:44,920
Speaker 1: because it's a fairly popularized thing. I was first familiar

434
00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:47,120
Speaker 1: with it from Altered States. That was the first time

435
00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:49,000
Speaker 1: I'd ever heard of it. I think I probably saw

436
00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:50,960
Speaker 1: Altered States when I was like nineteen or twenty or

437
00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:54,400
Speaker 1: something like that. But just last year, maybe two years ago,

438
00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:57,560
Speaker 1: my wife for my birthday got me um a gift

439
00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:00,520
Speaker 1: card to go visit an isolation tank center here in Atlanta.

440
00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:03,760
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I think we've likely been to the same place. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

441
00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:06,200
Speaker 1: you've done it as well, right. Yeah. For those of

442
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:07,960
Speaker 1: you who are not familiar with it, uh, yeah, you

443
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:12,000
Speaker 1: can probably find a float a place in your your

444
00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:14,600
Speaker 1: area and you try it out for yourself. But essentially

445
00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:17,880
Speaker 1: it is a chamber, a dark chamber filled with very

446
00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:20,879
Speaker 1: buoyant salt water. You go in there, you you know,

447
00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:23,920
Speaker 1: maybe you put on some goggles, maybe you're wearing a

448
00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:26,840
Speaker 1: bathing suit, maybe not, and you're just floating there in

449
00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:30,280
Speaker 1: the silence. Uh. You all your hearing is just the

450
00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:33,800
Speaker 1: sound of the water, the sound of your your own heartbeat. Uh.

451
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:38,240
Speaker 1: And because you're floating, you don't really sense any touch, right.

452
00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:40,680
Speaker 1: It's which is unusual for us. We're always like kind

453
00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:43,639
Speaker 1: of bound to something by gravity. But this allows you

454
00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:47,240
Speaker 1: to kind of just float there. Um. The darkness takes

455
00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:49,320
Speaker 1: away your eyesight for the most part. The one I

456
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:50,840
Speaker 1: was in kind of I don't know about you, but

457
00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:53,480
Speaker 1: it had like a little bit of a transparency to it,

458
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:56,440
Speaker 1: so natural daylight kind of came in. Um. And then

459
00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:58,480
Speaker 1: there was what was the other Oh, they gave me

460
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:00,840
Speaker 1: ear plugs? Did you get ear plugs? I may have

461
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:03,240
Speaker 1: gotten near plus I can't remember now. I do remember

462
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:06,120
Speaker 1: seeing lights eventually, because I think I was in darkness.

463
00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:09,000
Speaker 1: And I also have to say that the warmness of

464
00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:11,760
Speaker 1: the water is it tends to be calibrated so that

465
00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:14,520
Speaker 1: it's about human body temperature. Yeah, so that it's in

466
00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:17,119
Speaker 1: a way the barriers of your body are no longer

467
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:21,320
Speaker 1: as obvious. So it's about isolating the mind. And and

468
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:24,760
Speaker 1: apparently like the idea for this came out of Lily's

469
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:27,560
Speaker 1: work at NIM Again, think back to the counter espionage work.

470
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:32,240
Speaker 1: How do you break down a potential spy? How do

471
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:36,880
Speaker 1: you get break into their mind and interact with their consciousness? Well,

472
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,520
Speaker 1: what if you were to put a scary latex mask

473
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:42,359
Speaker 1: over their face so they can't see anything, submerge them

474
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:45,840
Speaker 1: in this buoyant tank of salt water, and just rob

475
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:49,760
Speaker 1: them of their senses without actually harming them. So really

476
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:53,480
Speaker 1: it was a form of psychological torture that was being devised,

477
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:56,320
Speaker 1: and it was apparently pretty traumatic for some of the

478
00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:58,720
Speaker 1: individuds who tested it out. But of course Lily tested

479
00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:02,760
Speaker 1: it out as well. He solved the positive potential for

480
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:06,480
Speaker 1: the kind of inward focus that it allowed. Yeah, I mean,

481
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:08,920
Speaker 1: the basic idea here was he wanted to test whether

482
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:11,320
Speaker 1: the brain would actually shut down if there was no

483
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:15,399
Speaker 1: stimuli received. Right, But yeah, it's really interesting. Again, So

484
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:18,400
Speaker 1: like the figure that he becomes this kind of hippie

485
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:22,000
Speaker 1: psychedelic grew figure. You trace back his history and it's

486
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:26,720
Speaker 1: like ultimately connected to this kind of movement of torture

487
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:29,679
Speaker 1: and interrogation, right. I mean, like people, I don't know

488
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:33,439
Speaker 1: that they're necessarily using isolation tanks, but sensory deprivation is

489
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:36,000
Speaker 1: very much a thing that we do nowadays, we the

490
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:39,680
Speaker 1: United States military and government when we're trying to get

491
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:42,879
Speaker 1: information out of, you know, somebody that that might have

492
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:45,280
Speaker 1: something that's going to you know, potentially affect a citizen

493
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:49,000
Speaker 1: or or an operation overseas, oh yeah, or even just

494
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:54,320
Speaker 1: dishing out essentially punishment on individuals that are in solitary confinement. Yeah.

495
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:58,040
Speaker 1: And it's this is fascinating to me too, because this

496
00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 1: is right around it's a little bit earlier, but around

497
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:03,639
Speaker 1: the same time that Michelle Fucot is really starting to

498
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:07,280
Speaker 1: look into sort of the philosophy of discipline and punishment.

499
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:10,560
Speaker 1: And I'm really curious if these two guys knew about

500
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:13,880
Speaker 1: each other, uh, and if they even or if they

501
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:18,520
Speaker 1: interacted to you know. Yeah, indeed, so Lily Yeah really

502
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:21,239
Speaker 1: gets into the idea of the isolation tank, and this

503
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:24,080
Speaker 1: is this is kind of happening in the background to

504
00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:26,800
Speaker 1: the dolphin stuff. We we just mentioned the beginnings of

505
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:30,959
Speaker 1: the dolphin stuff. Um. I'm gonna actually just read uh

506
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:32,960
Speaker 1: one quote from him and have you read another one,

507
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:36,359
Speaker 1: because I think Lily really captures what he saw in

508
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:39,440
Speaker 1: the tank. Uh, what he saw in the tank's potential

509
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:42,560
Speaker 1: for the human mind. He said, all the average person

510
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:44,520
Speaker 1: has to do is get into the tank in the

511
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:49,120
Speaker 1: darkness and silence and float around until he realizes he

512
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:52,520
Speaker 1: is programming everything that is happening inside his head. You

513
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 1: are free of the physical world at that point, and

514
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:58,280
Speaker 1: anything can happen inside your head because everything is governed

515
00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:00,760
Speaker 1: by the laws of thought rather in the laws of

516
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:04,160
Speaker 1: the external world. So you can go to the limits

517
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:06,960
Speaker 1: of your conceptions. And so this is a good moment,

518
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:08,520
Speaker 1: I think for us to sort of back up for

519
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:11,040
Speaker 1: the listener for you out there listening. If you've never

520
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:13,520
Speaker 1: done this and you've never seen it depicted or read

521
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:18,920
Speaker 1: about it. Um. People oftentimes report that during their experience

522
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:22,240
Speaker 1: in these tanks, they see colorful images, they have memories

523
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:25,920
Speaker 1: flashed by, they kind of have like waking dreams. Uh.

524
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:29,280
Speaker 1: And there's even there's an Some people report an experience

525
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:32,359
Speaker 1: of levels of consciousness where they feel they're in contact

526
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:36,560
Speaker 1: with other intelligent being sort of outside of them, right. Yeah,

527
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:39,960
Speaker 1: I mean it's essentially a really meditative space. So I

528
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:43,560
Speaker 1: only floated once. I did not get that kind of experience.

529
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,120
Speaker 1: I understand that one needs to do it many times

530
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:48,680
Speaker 1: to get used to it. But but I have had

531
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 1: experiences in meditation where I have I have seen things

532
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:54,520
Speaker 1: and felt things that that line up to a certain

533
00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:58,480
Speaker 1: extent with this kind of you know, subjective experience. Yeah,

534
00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:01,440
Speaker 1: I mean it's possible too. So this is another instance

535
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:04,680
Speaker 1: that I um where the like the reporting seems to

536
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:08,040
Speaker 1: be a little bit varied for me. I read that

537
00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:11,320
Speaker 1: it's possible that he actually started dabbling in this before

538
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:13,840
Speaker 1: any of the dolphin research. Maybe it was more official

539
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:16,680
Speaker 1: later on. No, I believe you're right on that, Okay,

540
00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:23,200
Speaker 1: because he apparently considered dolphins and other water mammals because

541
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:26,840
Speaker 1: of the idea of consciousness that existed in the state

542
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:30,760
Speaker 1: of flotation. Uh, And it's somehow brought that up. But

543
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:33,040
Speaker 1: so here's another thing. We were talking about. How you

544
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:35,080
Speaker 1: bring the temperature to about the same as the body

545
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:39,280
Speaker 1: the body's temperature. Apparently, at one point while Lily was

546
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:42,640
Speaker 1: experimenting on himself. He's trying to bring the temperature to

547
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:44,800
Speaker 1: the right thing, and he fell into a coma. That

548
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:47,120
Speaker 1: was another thing that I read. And I mean, it

549
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:50,640
Speaker 1: must not have been that long or serious, but and

550
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:54,080
Speaker 1: I don't quite know how that would happen, even especially

551
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 1: given my experience in an isolation tank. But this was

552
00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:59,840
Speaker 1: in one of the papers I read. He also speculated,

553
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 1: Now this is the beginning of the John C. Lily

554
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 1: everybody came to know and love that in a tank

555
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:12,120
Speaker 1: a person meaning a man could orgasm without ejaculating. So

556
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:14,200
Speaker 1: another thing that comes out of this, outside of his

557
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 1: like speculations on orgasms and ejaculation, is uh that he

558
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:22,720
Speaker 1: also figured out that even in the tank that the

559
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:25,960
Speaker 1: pure mental state that he was looking to achieve wasn't

560
00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 1: necessarily possible because it even eliminating all sensory stimulation, just

561
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:37,080
Speaker 1: that kind of isolation in the tank wasn't achieving that. Um,

562
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:38,960
Speaker 1: this is probably a good opportunity for me to read

563
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 1: that second quote you mentioned. So this is from Lily

564
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 1: wrote lots of books on his own outside of his

565
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,080
Speaker 1: work with the government, and that weren't published really by

566
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:50,960
Speaker 1: I wouldn't call them peer reviewed in any sense, right,

567
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:52,880
Speaker 1: and this is one of them. I believe it's called

568
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:57,400
Speaker 1: I love this title Tanks for the memories flotation Tank talks. Yeah,

569
00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:01,160
Speaker 1: and this is from this is definitely later, this after Yeah,

570
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:04,840
Speaker 1: so okay. He says, at the highest level of satory

571
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 1: from which people return, the point of consciousness becomes a

572
00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:12,720
Speaker 1: surface or solid which extends throughout the whole known universe.

573
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:16,240
Speaker 1: This used to be called fusion with the universal mind

574
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:19,240
Speaker 1: or God. In more modern terms, you have done a

575
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:23,360
Speaker 1: mathematical transformation in which your center of consciousness has ceased

576
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 1: to be a traveling point and has become a surface

577
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:30,719
Speaker 1: or solid of consciousness. It was in this state that

578
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:36,160
Speaker 1: I experienced myself as melded and intertwined with hundreds of

579
00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:40,440
Speaker 1: billions of other beings in a thin sheet of consciousness

580
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:45,120
Speaker 1: that was distributed around the galaxy, a membrane. Now, this

581
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:47,920
Speaker 1: definitely touches on some of his wackier theories that we're

582
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:50,040
Speaker 1: going to get into later. Yeah. It it touches on

583
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:53,560
Speaker 1: some more the mystical ideas that he explores in his work.

584
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:56,840
Speaker 1: I do have to say, though, with ultimately what he's

585
00:31:56,880 --> 00:32:00,160
Speaker 1: talking about here, and ultimately with with the experience of

586
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:03,800
Speaker 1: of meditation, but also with the flow tank, a lot

587
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 1: of what's happening is the shutdown of what's called the

588
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:09,840
Speaker 1: default mode network. Actually we understand it more now is

589
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:15,480
Speaker 1: a series of of of interconnected resting state networks involved

590
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:18,520
Speaker 1: in vision, hearing, movement, attention, and memory. But you can

591
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:20,600
Speaker 1: think of it as just that that me voice, what

592
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:24,640
Speaker 1: Cartole calls the egoic mind, this sort of me centered

593
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:27,040
Speaker 1: narrative that's always running in the background of our head,

594
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:30,040
Speaker 1: whether we are conscious of it or not, you know,

595
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 1: worrying about the past, worrying about the future. And if

596
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:36,720
Speaker 1: you can shut that off, then you're in this point

597
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:41,520
Speaker 1: of clarity and now illness, and you can actually explore

598
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:44,640
Speaker 1: thoughts about yourself in the world around you in ways

599
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:47,840
Speaker 1: that you're often crippled from. Yeah, I mean this is

600
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:51,400
Speaker 1: certainly like what I try to get out of, you know,

601
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:54,760
Speaker 1: with yoga and meditation in some situations. But but also

602
00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:57,040
Speaker 1: I gotta say, after doing the isolation tank thing, I

603
00:32:57,040 --> 00:32:59,520
Speaker 1: want one of those in my home. And maybe maybe

604
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:01,640
Speaker 1: if you did it too much, it would it would

605
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:05,680
Speaker 1: sort of defeat the purpose for achieving that sort of

606
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:10,280
Speaker 1: lack of self right of thinking about everything else around you.

607
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:11,960
Speaker 1: I don't know. I've never heard anyone say they do

608
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:14,640
Speaker 1: it too much. There always people are really into it.

609
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:17,200
Speaker 1: Or if I could just like after every day coming home,

610
00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:19,480
Speaker 1: just hop into one of those for thirty minutes, that

611
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:23,320
Speaker 1: would be great. I read an account about there was

612
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:26,040
Speaker 1: a woman in the nineteen eighties who was apparently like

613
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:27,640
Speaker 1: a I don't know that I would call her a

614
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:30,360
Speaker 1: student of Lilies, but she was somebody who followed his

615
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:33,360
Speaker 1: work closely. She was one of the first people to

616
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:37,400
Speaker 1: open like a business around isolation tanks, and she had

617
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 1: one in her home on the twenty floor of a

618
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:43,000
Speaker 1: Manhattan skyscraper, and she I think at the time she

619
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:45,680
Speaker 1: charged people like twenty five dollars per hour. And one

620
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:48,800
Speaker 1: of her main clients was a television executive who would

621
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 1: he said something along the lines of, how like after

622
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:54,440
Speaker 1: every flight home back to Manhattan, after like you know,

623
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 1: doing a bunch of television sales type stuff, he would,

624
00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:00,120
Speaker 1: before even going home, go to her place and up

625
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:03,240
Speaker 1: into one of these isolation tanks. It's kind of fascinating

626
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:06,240
Speaker 1: that like a guy like that saw the value and

627
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:08,640
Speaker 1: just kind of slowing everything down. Yeah, I mean it

628
00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:10,959
Speaker 1: leaves a bit leads a busy life, so it would

629
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 1: make sense at this point we're gonna return back to dolphins.

630
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:23,040
Speaker 1: I feel like we we've we've set everything up to

631
00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:28,319
Speaker 1: continue Lily's journey. We're going to around nineteen Uh. This

632
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:31,680
Speaker 1: is when Lily presents a paper before the American Psychiatric

633
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:35,520
Speaker 1: Association and he makes some rather dramatic claims about the

634
00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:40,520
Speaker 1: intelligence and the linguistic abilities of the bottlenose dolphins, specifically.

635
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:44,360
Speaker 1: Now that the evidence City cites as apparent is arguably

636
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:49,160
Speaker 1: scant and and anecdotal, but it resonated pretty strongly, and

637
00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:51,799
Speaker 1: it resonated with the right people. So soon you had

638
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:56,200
Speaker 1: prestigious federal research awards rolling in, and he uses these

639
00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:59,960
Speaker 1: funds to build a dedicated dolphin laboratory on St. Tom

640
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:04,399
Speaker 1: Miss in the US Virgin Islands, the Communication Research Institute

641
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:08,160
Speaker 1: or c r I. Yeah, And the most fascinating thing

642
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:11,200
Speaker 1: that you added to these notes is that at its height,

643
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:16,880
Speaker 1: this institute, under Lily's guidance, was receiving half a million

644
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:21,760
Speaker 1: dollars a year in grant money. It exploded crazy, especially

645
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:24,399
Speaker 1: when you consider what half a million dollars was worth

646
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 1: back then. That's nuts, uh, that that he was getting

647
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:32,319
Speaker 1: that much support Uh. And it sounds like during this

648
00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:35,320
Speaker 1: time he I guess he had a home in Miami.

649
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:38,960
Speaker 1: Sounded like he'd become fairly acclimated to Florida and liked

650
00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:42,600
Speaker 1: it a lot there. But he had the lab in St. Thomas. Uh.

651
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:46,879
Speaker 1: And there was this really interesting nineteen sixty Time magazine

652
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:49,239
Speaker 1: piece that I was able to pull and it's this

653
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:53,840
Speaker 1: kind of fascinating like feature peace on on him and

654
00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:58,720
Speaker 1: they described him as a deep chested, sun tanned neurophysiologist.

655
00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:01,759
Speaker 1: I like that. Uh. That that must be where the

656
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 1: idea for the George C. Scott character and the dolphin

657
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:07,800
Speaker 1: came from. But at the time that they came to

658
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:10,880
Speaker 1: visit him Time Magazine, that is Uh, he was working

659
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:13,800
Speaker 1: on an elaborate system of jetties and pools at the center.

660
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:17,080
Speaker 1: The idea was that he was trying to learn about

661
00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:20,680
Speaker 1: dolphins sonar for the Navy. They were paying for the

662
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:23,960
Speaker 1: expenses of this construction. Uh. And the idea was that

663
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:27,040
Speaker 1: they they felt that dolphins sonar was better than their

664
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:29,200
Speaker 1: own capabilities at the time, so they wanted to figure

665
00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:32,120
Speaker 1: out a way to reverse engineer and mimic it. Yes,

666
00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:34,759
Speaker 1: the Navy was definitely one of the interested parties that

667
00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:38,880
Speaker 1: was won over by his his arguments for dolphin intelligence

668
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:41,600
Speaker 1: and dolphin abilities. Well, I mean he had some some

669
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:45,200
Speaker 1: convincing evidence. Like you said, it wasn't all like uh perfect,

670
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:47,879
Speaker 1: But when he he must have been a very charismatic guy,

671
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:51,839
Speaker 1: I'm imagining, because when he gives these presentations, people just

672
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:53,640
Speaker 1: fall head over heels for it. I mean, you hear

673
00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:55,440
Speaker 1: it in his voice, and you will actually hear his

674
00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:57,960
Speaker 1: voice at the end of this podcast. Like one of

675
00:36:57,960 --> 00:36:59,719
Speaker 1: the things that I think he convinced the Navy with

676
00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:03,440
Speaker 1: was by dissecting dolphin brains. Uh. You know, we we

677
00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:06,040
Speaker 1: talked about this earlier. They're bigger than human brains obviously,

678
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:09,400
Speaker 1: but they also have as complicated a cerebral cortex. Uh.

679
00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:12,719
Speaker 1: And so this is when he starts planting electrodes in

680
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:15,400
Speaker 1: the dolphin brains, kind of along the same lines of

681
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:17,879
Speaker 1: what we were talking about with the monkeys earlier, trying

682
00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:21,520
Speaker 1: to stimulate their pleasure centers, specifically with electricity. And this

683
00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:25,600
Speaker 1: is the weirdest, Like this grossed me out. This quote

684
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:29,840
Speaker 1: from the Time magazine article. He said when he first

685
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:34,200
Speaker 1: stimulated their pleasure centers with electrodes, the muscles around their

686
00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:38,680
Speaker 1: blow hole smiled. That is the weirdest, like I don't

687
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:40,920
Speaker 1: know why, it just squeaks me out, like the idea

688
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:44,320
Speaker 1: of a little smile for around and the but the

689
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:46,880
Speaker 1: like dolphins got like its head peel, you know, it's

690
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:49,680
Speaker 1: scalp peeled back with all these electrodes wired into it.

691
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:52,920
Speaker 1: Whatever the case, the dolphins loved it. In fact, there

692
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:55,600
Speaker 1: is an apparatus that he used to sort of train

693
00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:58,520
Speaker 1: them with it. They could give themselves the electrical jolt,

694
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:01,680
Speaker 1: and they did it so much that they became addicted

695
00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:05,359
Speaker 1: to it. Uh. And this is this is so this

696
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:08,440
Speaker 1: is a different story from what I um you mentioned earlier.

697
00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:11,440
Speaker 1: I In this nineteen sixty piece, they say this is

698
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:14,680
Speaker 1: where he first encountered the dolphins mimicking humans speech. He

699
00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:17,800
Speaker 1: says that apparently, and maybe he's just you know, b

700
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:20,839
Speaker 1: ssing them during an interview or something like that. But

701
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:24,360
Speaker 1: he says, an apparatus broke down one day at the St.

702
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:28,240
Speaker 1: Thomas laboratory and he had left a tape recorder running

703
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 1: and he heard a Donald Duck like voice on the

704
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:34,360
Speaker 1: tape recorder later on that was imitating him saying the

705
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:37,680
Speaker 1: words three hundred and twenty three over and over again.

706
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:40,440
Speaker 1: And then he also said that the dolphins imitated the

707
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:43,240
Speaker 1: buzz of a transformer and the rattle of a movie

708
00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:47,160
Speaker 1: camera that we're in, I'm assuming in the same laboratory space. Yeah.

709
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:51,000
Speaker 1: So there's this feeling that he's getting here that not

710
00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:54,359
Speaker 1: only is he reaching out to them to make communication,

711
00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:58,439
Speaker 1: but they are reaching out to us, and he has

712
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 1: to meet them in the middle. He has to find

713
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:04,680
Speaker 1: a way to make this connection. Uh. And towards that end,

714
00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:07,920
Speaker 1: he starts like documenting what he thinks is dolphin language.

715
00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:09,719
Speaker 1: And now you know, I think that it's it's fairly

716
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:11,799
Speaker 1: well documented at this point that we know that there

717
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:14,799
Speaker 1: is such a thing. Uh. He learned one phrase in

718
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:17,440
Speaker 1: dolphin language that he reported back to time in nineteen

719
00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:19,839
Speaker 1: sixty and it was what he called their may day

720
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:22,759
Speaker 1: distress call, and he describes it as sounding like a

721
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:26,160
Speaker 1: wolf whistling, which I don't I don't know that that's

722
00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:29,160
Speaker 1: necessarily a description that immediately calls a sound to my mind.

723
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:31,520
Speaker 1: But maybe Lily was encountering more wolves than I do

724
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:35,440
Speaker 1: on a daily basis. Uh. But he specifically noted that

725
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:39,680
Speaker 1: this happened when he put a paralyzed dolphin in a pool.

726
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:41,960
Speaker 1: So one thing I want to stop and ask is,

727
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:45,240
Speaker 1: why would you do that? He puts this paralyzed dolphin

728
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:48,640
Speaker 1: in the pool, right, the dolphin sinks to the bottom

729
00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:52,640
Speaker 1: and immediately starts crying out with this may day distress call. Well,

730
00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:55,680
Speaker 1: Lily says, the other dolphins all came to its rescue

731
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:58,080
Speaker 1: and pushed it back to the surface so that it

732
00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:01,400
Speaker 1: could continue breathing. So maybe he speculated that was going

733
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:03,040
Speaker 1: to happen, and this was just kind of a test

734
00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:07,080
Speaker 1: of their I guess, like bond together. But it just

735
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:11,839
Speaker 1: again I was like wow, Like, uh, despite his fascination

736
00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:15,160
Speaker 1: and love for these animals, he's willing to like let

737
00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:17,880
Speaker 1: one potentially drown. Yeah, And I mean part of this,

738
00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:20,840
Speaker 1: I think is that he's he's certainly working, you know,

739
00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:23,800
Speaker 1: within the scientific atmosphere of the day and the attitude

740
00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:28,040
Speaker 1: towards uh test animals of the day. And you can

741
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:30,720
Speaker 1: probably chalk a bit of it up to his uh,

742
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:34,360
Speaker 1: you know, his his laser focused vision, which we certainly

743
00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:37,880
Speaker 1: saw during his NYMN days and continues to a certain

744
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:41,400
Speaker 1: extent with the dolphins. It sounds from from the research

745
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:44,160
Speaker 1: I was reading that his his work with the dolphins

746
00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:48,880
Speaker 1: definitely got less invasive he got further and further away

747
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:51,960
Speaker 1: from the sort of the the harder stuff of the

748
00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:54,879
Speaker 1: NYM days. But uh, but he was still at times

749
00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:58,320
Speaker 1: sort of accused of of having on an occasional cavalier

750
00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:01,680
Speaker 1: attitude towards that the test dolphins. Yeah. I think though

751
00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:05,120
Speaker 1: that that sort of phases out over time, you know. Um.

752
00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:07,319
Speaker 1: But not a year later after this time thing, that's

753
00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:09,919
Speaker 1: when he published his like big dolphin book, right, yes,

754
00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:14,960
Speaker 1: nineteen one Man and Dolphin Adventures of a New Scientific Frontier.

755
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:18,719
Speaker 1: And this book just really becomes a big deal. Not

756
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:22,200
Speaker 1: only researchers, not only scientists and academics, but just the

757
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:25,040
Speaker 1: general public are eating this book up. And I'm just

758
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:26,360
Speaker 1: gonna read you a quick sample from it so you

759
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:28,399
Speaker 1: can get just an idea of some of the things

760
00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:31,200
Speaker 1: he's talking about. In this book. He's documenting his work

761
00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:33,640
Speaker 1: with dolphins thus far, but he's also talking about where

762
00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:36,200
Speaker 1: he thinks this work can take us. He said, quote,

763
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:39,320
Speaker 1: eventually it may be possible for humans to speak with

764
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:42,040
Speaker 1: another species. I have come to this conclusion after careful

765
00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:45,360
Speaker 1: consideration of evidence game through my research experiments with dolphins.

766
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:49,120
Speaker 1: If new scientific developments are to be made in this direction, however,

767
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:54,040
Speaker 1: certain changes in our basic orientation, orientation and philosophy will

768
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:58,120
Speaker 1: be necessary. So he's talking about just a game changing

769
00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:01,799
Speaker 1: development here. He's talking about he discusses us reaching the

770
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:05,640
Speaker 1: point where we we teach dolphins to speak English, to

771
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:10,160
Speaker 1: speak English, and to even have to create a chair

772
00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:13,920
Speaker 1: for them on the United Nations. So you know that

773
00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:17,920
Speaker 1: this he's talking about finding an alien intelligence here on

774
00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:22,000
Speaker 1: our planet and uh and and communing with them, um,

775
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:27,560
Speaker 1: communicating with them and actually inviting them into our rule

776
00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:30,200
Speaker 1: of the world. And he's clearly going into his own

777
00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:33,239
Speaker 1: soul searching too. If we sort of like compare this

778
00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:35,319
Speaker 1: with the history of his life, you know, I mean,

779
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:38,520
Speaker 1: I think he had like a very personal reason for

780
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:41,239
Speaker 1: feeling so strongly about this, given the way that he

781
00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:44,600
Speaker 1: had experimented on these animals previously. He goes from that

782
00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:47,120
Speaker 1: to thinking that they should be part of the United Nations.

783
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:50,399
Speaker 1: Uh and and by the sixties, he's this is when

784
00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:54,400
Speaker 1: he's publishing academic papers glore showing that dolphins can mimic

785
00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:59,480
Speaker 1: all kinds of human speech patterns by clicking, squeaking, and rasping.

786
00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:03,120
Speaker 1: Uh And he even talked there's this British I got

787
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:06,720
Speaker 1: the impression from the article I read that this British

788
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:08,879
Speaker 1: anthropologist was a big deal at the time. His name

789
00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:13,279
Speaker 1: is Gregory Bateson and the US Navy and and him

790
00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:16,360
Speaker 1: and Lily were all kind of influenced by the research

791
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:19,600
Speaker 1: that was going on at the center. And Lily pitched

792
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:24,719
Speaker 1: human dolphin communication to NASA at the time, saying that

793
00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:27,480
Speaker 1: if they were going to encounter aliens, this is the

794
00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:29,799
Speaker 1: perfect way for them to sort of come up with

795
00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:33,839
Speaker 1: a model of communications standards with an alien intelligence. Yeah

796
00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:36,560
Speaker 1: to And it makes sense, right if you're attempting to

797
00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:41,600
Speaker 1: communicate with a as a different yet equal form of consciousness,

798
00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:45,520
Speaker 1: and this could conceivably be an experiment in that. And

799
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:47,680
Speaker 1: you can see now where Day of the Dolphin came from.

800
00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:49,239
Speaker 1: I don't know what year that came out. I want

801
00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:52,640
Speaker 1: to say it was early seventies maybe, but uh, if

802
00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:55,600
Speaker 1: you've never seen the movie before, it involves the George C.

803
00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:58,520
Speaker 1: Scott as John C. Lily. They both had season the

804
00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:02,560
Speaker 1: middle character eaching dolphins to speak English. They can speak English,

805
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:05,320
Speaker 1: and I believe it's on behalf of the U. S. Government. Uh,

806
00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:08,960
Speaker 1: And you know they say things like fall loves paw Right,

807
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:12,719
Speaker 1: like he's paw, and I think he names them all

808
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:16,080
Speaker 1: things that rhyme with paw because it's easier for them

809
00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:18,239
Speaker 1: to pronounce or whatever. It's kind of a silly movie,

810
00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:20,319
Speaker 1: but it's also a little bit touching in a way. So, yeah,

811
00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:22,720
Speaker 1: the book is a huge success. It inspires these movies.

812
00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:26,080
Speaker 1: That's the idea just spells like spreads like wildfire. And

813
00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:28,680
Speaker 1: this was a period again, the fifties and sixties, during

814
00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:32,040
Speaker 1: which fascination with the underwater world is really taking off.

815
00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:34,480
Speaker 1: This is the time of you know, scuba is really

816
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:39,160
Speaker 1: really exploding, Jacques Cousteaux is is making a big name

817
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:42,600
Speaker 1: for himself. It's the time of Sea Hunt. And in

818
00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:46,600
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty three, of course, you see the television show Flipper. Yeah,

819
00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:51,000
Speaker 1: a mainstream television show about an intelligent dolphin that communicates

820
00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:54,200
Speaker 1: with humans. Yeah, and this is where we come back

821
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:57,360
Speaker 1: to our connections to the creature from the Black Lagoon.

822
00:44:57,520 --> 00:44:59,920
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, hit me with it. Yeah, So I kind

823
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:03,239
Speaker 1: I had forgotten this, but that TV series Flipper was

824
00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:06,839
Speaker 1: based on a nineteen sixty three film of the same name,

825
00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:13,080
Speaker 1: a film co created by ricou Browning. Okay, riccou Browning

826
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:17,120
Speaker 1: worked at Marine Studios, which we mentioned earlier the place

827
00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:21,759
Speaker 1: where where Lily initially went down to study dolphins, and uh,

828
00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:25,440
Speaker 1: Browning actually portrayed the creature from the Black Lagoon in

829
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:28,319
Speaker 1: the first two films. So Lily is actually the guy

830
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:29,759
Speaker 1: wearing the rubber suit. Yeah, he was a guy in

831
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:32,319
Speaker 1: the rubber suit in the first two Creature films. And

832
00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:35,719
Speaker 1: uh and again he co created Flipper, and Lily is

833
00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:40,200
Speaker 1: actually thanked in the credits to the film Flipper. So

834
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:45,040
Speaker 1: that's nuts. Wow, Okay, well yeah, and it it also

835
00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:47,680
Speaker 1: makes me think of God the film version of twenty

836
00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:49,759
Speaker 1: Leagues into the Sea was made around that time too,

837
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:53,400
Speaker 1: probably right, Um, I don't know the specific date on that,

838
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:57,359
Speaker 1: but yeah, there is that fascination with sort of undersea adventure. Yeah,

839
00:45:57,360 --> 00:45:59,160
Speaker 1: it's opening up to us in ways that it just

840
00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:02,600
Speaker 1: had not been previously available. And so we're we're fascinated

841
00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:04,920
Speaker 1: with this new world down there. And then to to

842
00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:07,800
Speaker 1: to also have this potential revelation laid on our plate

843
00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:11,200
Speaker 1: that there is an intelligence down there, uh more or

844
00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:14,239
Speaker 1: less on par with our own. I wonder what John C.

845
00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:17,480
Speaker 1: Lily thought of the ABYSS. I don't know that would

846
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:20,080
Speaker 1: have been interesting. Huh. Yeah, that's probably in a way.

847
00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:23,440
Speaker 1: That's a very Lily movie, isn't it. So studies at

848
00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:28,040
Speaker 1: the center continue again. Lily's approach gradually moves away from

849
00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:30,120
Speaker 1: the sort of the creepy world of nim his nim

850
00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:33,640
Speaker 1: work and into less invasive techniques. He abandons the use

851
00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:38,080
Speaker 1: of electrodes and instead attempts to essentially meld minds with

852
00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:41,680
Speaker 1: the dolphins to understand the shape of their consciousness. Um

853
00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:45,080
Speaker 1: He turns increasingly to the flotation tank and attempt to

854
00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:49,560
Speaker 1: achieve this. He pipes in hydrophone recordings of their sounds,

855
00:46:50,040 --> 00:46:54,040
Speaker 1: and eventually too, he starts using LSD. And this is

856
00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:56,920
Speaker 1: where it's all coming together, right if they seem like

857
00:46:57,160 --> 00:47:01,120
Speaker 1: very disparate things when you say dolphins, isolation, hanks, and LSD.

858
00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:04,279
Speaker 1: But he's combining all of these things together. Yeah, And

859
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:06,560
Speaker 1: at the time it's legal, he's able to get it

860
00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:10,040
Speaker 1: through his his connections, his clearance. He's getting it totally

861
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:13,680
Speaker 1: on the board and uh. In beginning of nineteen sixty four,

862
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:16,640
Speaker 1: he also is injecting it into the dolphins to see

863
00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:18,719
Speaker 1: what kind of effect it will. It will he oh,

864
00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:21,560
Speaker 1: I didn't know that really, And this was pretty standard

865
00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:23,040
Speaker 1: for the time. This was a time when there were

866
00:47:23,080 --> 00:47:25,239
Speaker 1: a lot of LSD experiments going on, and we were

867
00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:28,600
Speaker 1: putting LSD into the bodies of various animals and testo

868
00:47:28,719 --> 00:47:31,839
Speaker 1: just to see how they responded. Uh. And apparently they

869
00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:34,600
Speaker 1: did not really respond to LSD, which he was kind

870
00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:37,640
Speaker 1: of disappointed with, but he kept taking it. He kept

871
00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:41,840
Speaker 1: going into Yeah, see if he could he could understand

872
00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:44,200
Speaker 1: their mind. Yea. So one of the things that I

873
00:47:44,239 --> 00:47:46,920
Speaker 1: read when researching him, and I hadn't really realized this.

874
00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:49,040
Speaker 1: Do you do you remember a video game called Echoes

875
00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:52,480
Speaker 1: the Dolphin. Yeah, I do. I vaguely remember it. I

876
00:47:52,520 --> 00:47:54,560
Speaker 1: didn't play it. I talked to Joe about it, our

877
00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:58,000
Speaker 1: co host, and he did play it. Uh, and apparently

878
00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:02,040
Speaker 1: the whole game was sent it around Lily his research

879
00:48:02,080 --> 00:48:04,640
Speaker 1: and his sort of philosophy. Yeah, I had no idea.

880
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:08,399
Speaker 1: It apparently gets really psychedelic as it continues. I only ever,

881
00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:10,200
Speaker 1: like played like the first level, so I have a

882
00:48:10,320 --> 00:48:13,080
Speaker 1: very service level understanding of ECO. I think it's like

883
00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:15,680
Speaker 1: something Joe said. It was something to the effect that

884
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:19,000
Speaker 1: like there's even like an alien sort of overmind that

885
00:48:19,360 --> 00:48:22,800
Speaker 1: causes the events on Earth that make Echo the Dolphin

886
00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:26,360
Speaker 1: have to try to, you know, go through this gamut

887
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:31,040
Speaker 1: of psychedelic levels and nervious save the world. That's cool. Yeah,

888
00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:33,600
Speaker 1: So it's c R I. We continue to see him

889
00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:36,439
Speaker 1: doing what he's always done. He's using the best technology,

890
00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:41,640
Speaker 1: various methodologies, and an attempt to achieve his his goal here. So,

891
00:48:41,719 --> 00:48:43,880
Speaker 1: for instance, he uses state of the art code breaking

892
00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:46,960
Speaker 1: computers and an attempt to crack the code of dolphin

893
00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:52,319
Speaker 1: vocalization patterns and uh as. As Bruce Clark points out

894
00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:56,040
Speaker 1: in his Communication plus one paper from two thousand and fourteen,

895
00:48:56,280 --> 00:48:59,239
Speaker 1: John Lily The Mind of the Dolphin and Communication out

896
00:48:59,239 --> 00:49:03,960
Speaker 1: of Bounds, He says lially mobilize the best available tools,

897
00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:07,759
Speaker 1: a cutting edge array of cybernetic concepts in pursuit of

898
00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:12,480
Speaker 1: his his breakthrough communication with dolphins. He employed quote information theory,

899
00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:16,600
Speaker 1: bound up with first order cybernetics, and operated with the

900
00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:21,560
Speaker 1: heuristic computational metaphors alongside the actual computers of his era.

901
00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:25,000
Speaker 1: So that actually speaks to my my question from earlier

902
00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:28,120
Speaker 1: about bring computer interfaces. It sounds like he did have

903
00:49:28,239 --> 00:49:30,520
Speaker 1: quite a bit of influence on the BC I. Yeah,

904
00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:32,799
Speaker 1: it's it sounds like he did. Yeah, he was, you know,

905
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:37,279
Speaker 1: basically any area he applied himself to, he managed to

906
00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:42,040
Speaker 1: influence that discipline. Uh, sometimes in a positive direction, sometimes

907
00:49:42,200 --> 00:49:44,799
Speaker 1: in a negative direction as well as well discussed. But

908
00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:46,640
Speaker 1: but in all of this too, we're getting into this

909
00:49:46,680 --> 00:49:50,600
Speaker 1: problem of projection, right. Oh yeah, you mean like actual

910
00:49:50,680 --> 00:49:54,479
Speaker 1: vocal projection. No, no, no, actually like projecting, uh well,

911
00:49:54,560 --> 00:49:57,839
Speaker 1: and maybe to a certain extent, but also want you know,

912
00:49:58,120 --> 00:50:02,600
Speaker 1: projecting your consciousness on to another creature, okay, okay um.

913
00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:06,160
Speaker 1: As Clark points out in his paper, projection short circuits

914
00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:08,960
Speaker 1: a proper understanding of what others are thinking or meaning

915
00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:12,640
Speaker 1: to convey when they make a communic communicative offer, so

916
00:50:12,680 --> 00:50:15,160
Speaker 1: that in projection goes. It's a problem when we just

917
00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:17,800
Speaker 1: try and communicate with each other, Like I'm not just community,

918
00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:21,560
Speaker 1: I'm not communicating solely with you. I'm communicating with a

919
00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:24,319
Speaker 1: version of you I have in my mind, my expectations

920
00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:27,240
Speaker 1: of you. And then the kind of feedback you provide

921
00:50:27,239 --> 00:50:31,279
Speaker 1: as well. It's the inherent problem of human communication, and

922
00:50:31,840 --> 00:50:35,160
Speaker 1: through a series of feedback and feed forward we try

923
00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:38,719
Speaker 1: to clear up like various psychological noise that gets in

924
00:50:38,719 --> 00:50:41,040
Speaker 1: the middle there of our understanding of what one another

925
00:50:41,120 --> 00:50:44,040
Speaker 1: is saying. But yeah, it's it's kind of like the

926
00:50:44,160 --> 00:50:47,480
Speaker 1: human dilemma, right, is that like we're we're never going

927
00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:50,000
Speaker 1: to fully be able to at least, you know, with

928
00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:54,600
Speaker 1: just our voices, uh, communicate what's going on inside our

929
00:50:54,680 --> 00:50:59,200
Speaker 1: head to one another. Really really wanted to get past that. Yeah,

930
00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:01,439
Speaker 1: And but one of the problems, of course, is that he's,

931
00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:05,040
Speaker 1: despite his scientific background and all of the vigoris throwing

932
00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:08,200
Speaker 1: into this, he seems to always be working with the

933
00:51:08,280 --> 00:51:12,239
Speaker 1: certainty that communication can truly be established, and that not

934
00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:14,600
Speaker 1: only is he reaching out, but they're reaching out to us.

935
00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:18,640
Speaker 1: He said to quote, we must keep the working hypothesis

936
00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:22,319
Speaker 1: in mind that they are highly intelligent and are just

937
00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:26,800
Speaker 1: as interested in communicating with us as we are with them.

938
00:51:26,920 --> 00:51:29,439
Speaker 1: So you know, that's a potential stumbling block to your

939
00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:33,280
Speaker 1: your efforts here, because you already have it firmly established

940
00:51:33,320 --> 00:51:35,279
Speaker 1: in your mind that this can be done, that this

941
00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:38,000
Speaker 1: connection is there to be made. I mean, and again,

942
00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:40,360
Speaker 1: the intelligence of dolphins isn't in doubt. But to work

943
00:51:40,360 --> 00:51:42,879
Speaker 1: with that kind of certainty, uh, with with the kind

944
00:51:42,880 --> 00:51:46,560
Speaker 1: of certainty that they reflect our desire to communicate as well,

945
00:51:46,600 --> 00:51:49,960
Speaker 1: that's problematic. Yeah, and certainly I can imagine where that

946
00:51:50,120 --> 00:51:55,560
Speaker 1: is where he starts to have stumbling blocks with funders like, uh,

947
00:51:55,840 --> 00:51:58,279
Speaker 1: the Navy for instance, in the Air Force, or just

948
00:51:58,360 --> 00:52:02,680
Speaker 1: any like even NYM Like when you start postulating that

949
00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:07,680
Speaker 1: your test subjects are on an equal playing field with

950
00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:10,759
Speaker 1: humanity and should be treated as such, that's going to

951
00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:13,560
Speaker 1: be immediately problematic for them, right because it's outside of

952
00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:17,240
Speaker 1: their world understanding, but it also doesn't fit their agenda. Yeah,

953
00:52:17,280 --> 00:52:20,160
Speaker 1: and and word of these experiments and some of his

954
00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:22,880
Speaker 1: methods and ideas, they're leaking out. He has some researchers

955
00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:26,480
Speaker 1: that are leaving him and working exclusively for the Navy, uh,

956
00:52:26,719 --> 00:52:31,880
Speaker 1: perhaps whispering about his his excessive use of the isolation tank.

957
00:52:32,520 --> 00:52:34,320
Speaker 1: Perhaps they even know something about the l s D.

958
00:52:34,560 --> 00:52:40,080
Speaker 1: And they're definitely talking about the flooded dolphin cohabitation apartment

959
00:52:40,520 --> 00:52:44,680
Speaker 1: that becomes a major project towards the end of c

960
00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:48,400
Speaker 1: R I. So this is actually I don't know about

961
00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:50,960
Speaker 1: this particularly, but I know that he pitched an idea

962
00:52:51,000 --> 00:52:53,360
Speaker 1: that basically there needed to be some kind of living

963
00:52:53,440 --> 00:52:57,320
Speaker 1: space that humans and dolphins could coexist within to communicate.

964
00:52:57,440 --> 00:52:59,839
Speaker 1: Is this his attempt at that, Yeah, it's I mean

965
00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:03,000
Speaker 1: a lot of credit has to go to scientists. Margaret

966
00:53:03,400 --> 00:53:06,280
Speaker 1: how Love it who was actually the woman who lived

967
00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:08,719
Speaker 1: with the dolphins, and she she later wrote a book

968
00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:11,840
Speaker 1: where a number of articles that came out about her experience.

969
00:53:11,840 --> 00:53:14,600
Speaker 1: There's a great Guardian article actually titled to Dolphin who

970
00:53:14,640 --> 00:53:19,799
Speaker 1: Loved Me? And she comes up to the Lily with

971
00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:23,960
Speaker 1: the idea like she's already researching dolphins, so she's drawn

972
00:53:24,040 --> 00:53:26,800
Speaker 1: to his activities here. And according to her in the

973
00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:29,160
Speaker 1: Guardian piece, she says, maybe it was because I was

974
00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:31,640
Speaker 1: living so close to the lab. It just seems so simple.

975
00:53:31,880 --> 00:53:33,719
Speaker 1: Why let the water get in the way. So I

976
00:53:33,719 --> 00:53:36,920
Speaker 1: said to John Lily, I want to plaster everything and

977
00:53:37,000 --> 00:53:40,560
Speaker 1: fill this place with water. I want to live here. Huh.

978
00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:42,960
Speaker 1: So see what she have a scuba suit on? Or

979
00:53:43,040 --> 00:53:46,480
Speaker 1: was it just it just was a shallow enough that

980
00:53:46,520 --> 00:53:50,080
Speaker 1: she could wait around And basically they waterproofed this whole

981
00:53:50,160 --> 00:53:53,719
Speaker 1: living area. They made like a floodable apartment so that

982
00:53:53,800 --> 00:53:57,920
Speaker 1: she could live there with the dolphin four months of

983
00:53:58,040 --> 00:53:59,840
Speaker 1: eventual eventually, I think they talked about it being a

984
00:53:59,840 --> 00:54:01,839
Speaker 1: three month period, but it ended up being a six

985
00:54:01,880 --> 00:54:05,000
Speaker 1: month period where she was living with this dolphin, handpicked

986
00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:09,400
Speaker 1: dolphin named Peter, in an attempt to teach him English.

987
00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:12,279
Speaker 1: She was going to teach him to speak English. And

988
00:54:12,280 --> 00:54:15,480
Speaker 1: the idea here and really you know, bought into two

989
00:54:15,920 --> 00:54:19,359
Speaker 1: was that she would be there just constantly as this

990
00:54:19,440 --> 00:54:22,120
Speaker 1: kind of mother figure, that they would have this chance

991
00:54:22,160 --> 00:54:25,360
Speaker 1: to to bond in a in a way that human

992
00:54:25,400 --> 00:54:28,440
Speaker 1: and dolphin had not previously. And I'm assuming that like

993
00:54:28,600 --> 00:54:32,560
Speaker 1: she must have approached this like linguistic effort, I guess,

994
00:54:32,600 --> 00:54:35,399
Speaker 1: like using the same basis for which we teach young

995
00:54:35,560 --> 00:54:38,759
Speaker 1: humans language. Right, Yeah, that's my understanding very much. It

996
00:54:38,800 --> 00:54:42,080
Speaker 1: was like an adult human attempting to teach a child

997
00:54:42,160 --> 00:54:47,600
Speaker 1: human how to speak with the some added complications, um

998
00:54:47,640 --> 00:54:50,520
Speaker 1: that end up being important later on in that they

999
00:54:50,520 --> 00:54:54,560
Speaker 1: helped us to scandalize the work here. But dolphins are

1000
00:54:54,600 --> 00:54:59,160
Speaker 1: pretty can be pretty sexual creatures. So yeah, I've heard story. Yeah,

1001
00:54:59,160 --> 00:55:00,960
Speaker 1: this is probably where a lot of people are familiar

1002
00:55:00,960 --> 00:55:05,880
Speaker 1: with the story because she would occasionally have to help relieve,

1003
00:55:06,040 --> 00:55:10,160
Speaker 1: help dispense Peter of his sexual urges, let's say, in

1004
00:55:10,239 --> 00:55:12,640
Speaker 1: order to keep the work going. And that's she says,

1005
00:55:12,680 --> 00:55:14,840
Speaker 1: that's the way she approached approaching and not from a

1006
00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:18,120
Speaker 1: sexual uh you know vantage point. But it was this

1007
00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:20,360
Speaker 1: is a part of how Peter behaves as a dolphin,

1008
00:55:20,760 --> 00:55:21,960
Speaker 1: and we need to just sort of get that out

1009
00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:25,799
Speaker 1: of the way so we can continue working on language. Okay, well, yeah,

1010
00:55:25,800 --> 00:55:28,080
Speaker 1: I could see what that would be quite scandalous. It's

1011
00:55:28,080 --> 00:55:31,000
Speaker 1: one thing to pose it that a dolphin is on

1012
00:55:31,120 --> 00:55:37,480
Speaker 1: a sort of equal identity status, individual individualistic status with

1013
00:55:37,520 --> 00:55:40,520
Speaker 1: a human being. It's another thing to start engaging with

1014
00:55:40,680 --> 00:55:44,719
Speaker 1: them what people would consider bestiality. Yeah, he'd get into

1015
00:55:45,120 --> 00:55:47,280
Speaker 1: a weird area here. We have to sort of explain

1016
00:55:47,320 --> 00:55:50,120
Speaker 1: yourself out of that, or attempt to explain yourself out

1017
00:55:50,120 --> 00:55:54,160
Speaker 1: of that to your your backers or by nineteen seventy five,

1018
00:55:54,239 --> 00:55:57,400
Speaker 1: actually Hustler magazine comes out with them with an article

1019
00:55:57,440 --> 00:56:01,160
Speaker 1: about it and didn't help. Oh yeah, they completely scandalized

1020
00:56:01,400 --> 00:56:03,480
Speaker 1: love It and It and the experiment. They had some

1021
00:56:03,520 --> 00:56:06,560
Speaker 1: sort of a provocative illustration and just made it sound

1022
00:56:06,640 --> 00:56:09,640
Speaker 1: like like love It and Lily were just engaged in

1023
00:56:09,680 --> 00:56:12,480
Speaker 1: a you know, a pan species free for all there

1024
00:56:12,600 --> 00:56:16,520
Speaker 1: something which criticisms of this experiment aside. You know, clearly

1025
00:56:16,600 --> 00:56:19,640
Speaker 1: wasn't the point they were. They were trying to teach

1026
00:56:20,000 --> 00:56:21,960
Speaker 1: this creature to speak English. They were trying to to

1027
00:56:22,040 --> 00:56:24,840
Speaker 1: bridge this gap between the species and it. But it

1028
00:56:24,880 --> 00:56:27,080
Speaker 1: did get into some pretty weird areas. This sounds like

1029
00:56:27,120 --> 00:56:29,840
Speaker 1: another like we should add this to our our little

1030
00:56:29,880 --> 00:56:32,480
Speaker 1: document of ideas. This sounds like a great thing that

1031
00:56:32,520 --> 00:56:34,640
Speaker 1: we should cover for a future episode. Is like how

1032
00:56:34,719 --> 00:56:41,600
Speaker 1: much animal sexuality gets in the way of human animal experimentation. Uh,

1033
00:56:41,640 --> 00:56:44,040
Speaker 1: and and like this can't be the first time or

1034
00:56:44,120 --> 00:56:54,440
Speaker 1: only time that's happened, yeah, or the last. So by

1035
00:56:54,480 --> 00:56:58,920
Speaker 1: autumn of nine, Lily is increasingly more interested in LSD

1036
00:56:59,280 --> 00:57:03,279
Speaker 1: research then the ongoing dolphin research. Uh. You know, you

1037
00:57:03,320 --> 00:57:05,359
Speaker 1: could say that he's probably spent more time in the

1038
00:57:05,360 --> 00:57:07,319
Speaker 1: tank with the l s D. The l s D

1039
00:57:07,320 --> 00:57:10,240
Speaker 1: becomes the thing that is holding his interest and seems

1040
00:57:10,280 --> 00:57:13,120
Speaker 1: to be the next logical place for his interest and

1041
00:57:13,160 --> 00:57:16,080
Speaker 1: consciousness to really focus and to keep it in perspective.

1042
00:57:16,080 --> 00:57:18,000
Speaker 1: He's he's kind of getting up to sort of sort

1043
00:57:18,000 --> 00:57:20,680
Speaker 1: of retirement age at this point, I would imagine, right, Yeah,

1044
00:57:20,720 --> 00:57:23,480
Speaker 1: I mean I should say so and uh and so

1045
00:57:23,480 --> 00:57:26,280
Speaker 1: it's at this point, just as six months of cohabitation

1046
00:57:26,320 --> 00:57:29,000
Speaker 1: with Peter coming to an end, funding drives up at

1047
00:57:29,040 --> 00:57:31,800
Speaker 1: cr AT c r I and its closure is announced.

1048
00:57:32,200 --> 00:57:34,120
Speaker 1: Um and they didn't even have a peer reviewed paper

1049
00:57:34,200 --> 00:57:37,280
Speaker 1: out yet. Again, this comes up on the back of

1050
00:57:37,400 --> 00:57:40,240
Speaker 1: rumors that are spreading about the experiments c r I.

1051
00:57:40,520 --> 00:57:43,680
Speaker 1: Apparently a visiting board of grant examiners also came and

1052
00:57:43,760 --> 00:57:46,320
Speaker 1: ended up giving just a scathing review of the operation,

1053
00:57:47,000 --> 00:57:50,520
Speaker 1: and and Lily charges that the Navy researchers effectively sabotaged

1054
00:57:50,600 --> 00:57:53,360
Speaker 1: him and all of this, and you know, maybe they did. Yeah,

1055
00:57:53,440 --> 00:57:55,200
Speaker 1: And there's that sort of like this is a question

1056
00:57:55,240 --> 00:57:58,440
Speaker 1: that I had along. Like basically the whole journey for

1057
00:57:58,520 --> 00:58:00,840
Speaker 1: Lily is like where's the money coming from? Right? Like,

1058
00:58:01,120 --> 00:58:03,600
Speaker 1: he obviously has that point where he's working very closely

1059
00:58:03,600 --> 00:58:06,520
Speaker 1: with the government in the military, and then he gets

1060
00:58:06,520 --> 00:58:09,440
Speaker 1: into this phase where they're co funding stuff, but he's

1061
00:58:09,440 --> 00:58:14,480
Speaker 1: also got private resources, possibly even from his family. But yeah,

1062
00:58:14,760 --> 00:58:18,200
Speaker 1: I can imagine that if they're like coming by to

1063
00:58:18,280 --> 00:58:20,800
Speaker 1: take a tour or something like that, they're probably a

1064
00:58:20,840 --> 00:58:22,680
Speaker 1: little bit horrified. Well, it seems to be one of

1065
00:58:22,680 --> 00:58:26,640
Speaker 1: those cases where the establishment, if you will, we're certainly

1066
00:58:26,720 --> 00:58:31,280
Speaker 1: find funding Lily as long as his obsessions matched up

1067
00:58:31,360 --> 00:58:34,320
Speaker 1: with with with their goals and with their interests. But

1068
00:58:34,480 --> 00:58:39,080
Speaker 1: is his obsession uh drifted out of sync with theirs

1069
00:58:39,440 --> 00:58:43,040
Speaker 1: they stepped away from him. Well, it's fascinating, but it

1070
00:58:43,040 --> 00:58:44,880
Speaker 1: gets back to what we talked about in the Animals

1071
00:58:44,880 --> 00:58:47,560
Speaker 1: as Weapons episode, right, like nine times out of ten.

1072
00:58:47,600 --> 00:58:49,760
Speaker 1: That's where the money comes for this kind of stuff. Yeah,

1073
00:58:49,880 --> 00:58:53,480
Speaker 1: so c R I is just completely taken apart. The

1074
00:58:53,920 --> 00:58:57,200
Speaker 1: dolphins are most of the dolphins are apparently released, though

1075
00:58:57,800 --> 00:59:02,800
Speaker 1: Peter apparently unfortunately dies in captivity. Later on, Lily told

1076
00:59:02,880 --> 00:59:07,760
Speaker 1: love It that Peter died via suicide. That since dolphins

1077
00:59:07,760 --> 00:59:11,400
Speaker 1: have to consciously breathe, that if a dolphin is is

1078
00:59:11,720 --> 00:59:15,600
Speaker 1: significantly upset, it may just simply shut down and stop breathing.

1079
00:59:15,680 --> 00:59:18,320
Speaker 1: And that is allegedally what happened, and that it was

1080
00:59:18,440 --> 00:59:21,680
Speaker 1: upset by the suffering of its bond. Would love it

1081
00:59:22,480 --> 00:59:25,640
Speaker 1: perhaps that's why. That's what love It, That's what love

1082
00:59:25,680 --> 00:59:28,880
Speaker 1: It says in in in her book and in interviews. Yeah. See,

1083
00:59:28,880 --> 00:59:30,880
Speaker 1: so this is a little bit different from what I

1084
00:59:30,960 --> 00:59:34,440
Speaker 1: had read. And this is by Lily's own account. Later on,

1085
00:59:34,880 --> 00:59:37,800
Speaker 1: he sort of defiantly goes on later on to say,

1086
00:59:37,840 --> 00:59:41,080
Speaker 1: like he, in the face of the Navy and everybody else,

1087
00:59:41,120 --> 00:59:44,240
Speaker 1: he purposely let all the dolphins go. Uh And he

1088
00:59:44,520 --> 00:59:46,439
Speaker 1: even said to the point he said, well they were

1089
00:59:46,520 --> 00:59:52,080
Speaker 1: finished reprogramming me. So he you know, obviously like went

1090
00:59:52,120 --> 00:59:56,040
Speaker 1: to the uh far into the metaphor with the dolphins

1091
00:59:56,040 --> 00:59:59,439
Speaker 1: were performing the experiments on him, he wasn't experimenting on them,

1092
01:00:00,040 --> 01:00:03,280
Speaker 1: and that they chose to let him go. Yes, indeed,

1093
01:00:04,160 --> 01:00:07,080
Speaker 1: and uh, you know, at this point we really reached

1094
01:00:07,160 --> 01:00:11,200
Speaker 1: the point where Lily begins to fall out of favor

1095
01:00:11,520 --> 01:00:13,680
Speaker 1: with a lot of folks. Certainly by the time that

1096
01:00:13,880 --> 01:00:18,240
Speaker 1: Hustler magazine article comes out in seventy five. Uh, as

1097
01:00:18,280 --> 01:00:21,200
Speaker 1: I pointed out in that Orian magazine piece of Mind

1098
01:00:21,240 --> 01:00:24,720
Speaker 1: in the Water that I mentioned earlier, Lily went on

1099
01:00:24,800 --> 01:00:28,960
Speaker 1: to just be widely reviled by professional dolphin researchers and

1100
01:00:29,320 --> 01:00:33,320
Speaker 1: working scientists have for some time tended to dismiss him

1101
01:00:33,360 --> 01:00:37,160
Speaker 1: as just a lunatic, you know, as this hippie nut job.

1102
01:00:37,600 --> 01:00:39,479
Speaker 1: And you can understand that, right, I mean, you're trying

1103
01:00:39,520 --> 01:00:44,440
Speaker 1: to do this serious professional work and his figure is

1104
01:00:44,480 --> 01:00:47,280
Speaker 1: sort of looming in the in your peripheral fision. The

1105
01:00:47,320 --> 01:00:50,720
Speaker 1: whole time people were perhaps bringing him up. His he's

1106
01:00:50,840 --> 01:00:54,160
Speaker 1: he's tarnished your your your work, and your passions to

1107
01:00:54,200 --> 01:00:57,760
Speaker 1: a certain extent by his approach to tackling them. Well,

1108
01:00:57,840 --> 01:01:02,920
Speaker 1: especially knowing how competitive and sort of vicious. Unfortunately that

1109
01:01:03,040 --> 01:01:08,080
Speaker 1: like academic and research competition can kind of go. Yeah,

1110
01:01:08,160 --> 01:01:10,080
Speaker 1: I'm not surprised at all that sort of like the

1111
01:01:10,120 --> 01:01:14,960
Speaker 1: next generation of dolphin researchers turned on him, although you know,

1112
01:01:15,000 --> 01:01:18,720
Speaker 1: it also does sound like he wasn't exactly producing uh

1113
01:01:18,760 --> 01:01:22,440
Speaker 1: I guess like documented results, right, the kind of things

1114
01:01:22,480 --> 01:01:25,880
Speaker 1: that were that were being looked for, both for the

1115
01:01:25,920 --> 01:01:29,280
Speaker 1: funding but also to justify you know, what he was

1116
01:01:29,320 --> 01:01:32,800
Speaker 1: doing exactly. Well. I I also heard that, uh, and

1117
01:01:32,960 --> 01:01:35,880
Speaker 1: I'm curious if this is still true. This is from

1118
01:01:35,920 --> 01:01:41,720
Speaker 1: around the time, right before he died. Apparently the research

1119
01:01:41,800 --> 01:01:45,120
Speaker 1: station was going to be converted into a luxury condo

1120
01:01:45,280 --> 01:01:49,360
Speaker 1: living center that was called Dolphin Cove. Yeah, so I

1121
01:01:49,720 --> 01:01:55,520
Speaker 1: wonder if Dolphin Cove is still there with St. Thomas, right, yeah, yeah, curious, Yeah,

1122
01:01:55,640 --> 01:01:57,760
Speaker 1: I'd love to hear from you visit it. I wonder

1123
01:01:57,800 --> 01:02:00,640
Speaker 1: if the underwater apartment is still there. You pay three

1124
01:02:00,680 --> 01:02:03,440
Speaker 1: hundred dollars a night to stay and uh, there's no dolphin,

1125
01:02:03,560 --> 01:02:08,480
Speaker 1: you just you know, underwater. Yeah. So okay, this is

1126
01:02:08,520 --> 01:02:12,920
Speaker 1: really like the final I guess stage of Lily's research

1127
01:02:13,040 --> 01:02:15,000
Speaker 1: career as it were, and he kind of goes whole

1128
01:02:15,000 --> 01:02:17,480
Speaker 1: hog into the LSD field, right, right, And this is

1129
01:02:17,520 --> 01:02:20,760
Speaker 1: pretty much the the path he continues for the rest

1130
01:02:20,800 --> 01:02:23,040
Speaker 1: of his life. Really, this is where this is where

1131
01:02:23,080 --> 01:02:27,840
Speaker 1: Lily truly becomes the the the coon skin cap wearing uh,

1132
01:02:28,560 --> 01:02:32,840
Speaker 1: psychonaut counterculture mythic figure. This is when he gets his

1133
01:02:32,880 --> 01:02:36,320
Speaker 1: membership card into the Psychedelic Avengers that we've been talking

1134
01:02:36,360 --> 01:02:40,080
Speaker 1: about on on our episodes for quite is officially a

1135
01:02:40,120 --> 01:02:42,560
Speaker 1: part of the team now. And I've seen photos of

1136
01:02:42,640 --> 01:02:46,120
Speaker 1: him hanging out with Timothy Learry and Alan Ginsburg. Yeah,

1137
01:02:46,200 --> 01:02:49,760
Speaker 1: during this stage, and he apparently continues a certain degree

1138
01:02:50,160 --> 01:02:53,840
Speaker 1: of of Dolphin research. Uh. Some of it is um

1139
01:02:53,960 --> 01:02:55,920
Speaker 1: more is on the scientific side, like the use of

1140
01:02:56,000 --> 01:02:59,680
Speaker 1: musical tones. Some of it is more far more mystical,

1141
01:02:59,760 --> 01:03:04,040
Speaker 1: so is the looking into telepathy. But and it's and

1142
01:03:04,080 --> 01:03:08,040
Speaker 1: the dolphin continues to be kind of a mascot for

1143
01:03:08,120 --> 01:03:11,560
Speaker 1: him and for his work. So even though the c

1144
01:03:11,760 --> 01:03:16,200
Speaker 1: r I Center is gone, the Dolphin still remains an

1145
01:03:16,240 --> 01:03:19,240
Speaker 1: important part of Lily's life. But of course so does

1146
01:03:19,360 --> 01:03:24,120
Speaker 1: LSD and the use of LSD and other psychoactive agents

1147
01:03:24,480 --> 01:03:29,000
Speaker 1: too still crack that nut of consciousness in human existence.

1148
01:03:29,320 --> 01:03:32,520
Speaker 1: And uh, and and reached that providence of the mind.

1149
01:03:32,600 --> 01:03:35,240
Speaker 1: And one of my understandings is that like once l

1150
01:03:35,400 --> 01:03:39,480
Speaker 1: s D became illegal, he sort of moved into other psychotropics.

1151
01:03:39,480 --> 01:03:43,280
Speaker 1: Specifically ketamine was one that he used a lot um

1152
01:03:43,320 --> 01:03:45,880
Speaker 1: and and wrote about a lot as well. Yes, indeed,

1153
01:03:45,920 --> 01:03:48,960
Speaker 1: and and if his writings are in any indication, and

1154
01:03:49,000 --> 01:03:52,480
Speaker 1: he wrote a lot about his experiences using LSD. Like

1155
01:03:52,520 --> 01:03:55,200
Speaker 1: the times he used it, he really used it, like

1156
01:03:55,280 --> 01:03:58,440
Speaker 1: he went in Whole Hawk. He had access, legitimate access

1157
01:03:58,480 --> 01:04:05,640
Speaker 1: to pharmaceutical grade LSD and really attempted to just break

1158
01:04:05,640 --> 01:04:07,440
Speaker 1: through to the other side with it. And this was

1159
01:04:07,480 --> 01:04:10,720
Speaker 1: one of the actual like primary resources you were able

1160
01:04:10,720 --> 01:04:12,560
Speaker 1: to get a hold of for this episode, right with

1161
01:04:12,640 --> 01:04:16,840
Speaker 1: one of his books specifically about these experiences, what's it called.

1162
01:04:17,000 --> 01:04:20,840
Speaker 1: It's called Programming and Metaprogramming in the Human bio Computer.

1163
01:04:21,360 --> 01:04:23,400
Speaker 1: And this is just kind of his like lab notes

1164
01:04:23,480 --> 01:04:25,880
Speaker 1: of taking LSD essentially, it's hiss. Yeah, his big book

1165
01:04:25,920 --> 01:04:30,680
Speaker 1: of LSD observations published in nineteen seventy two, and it's

1166
01:04:30,840 --> 01:04:34,400
Speaker 1: um God, it's a it's a very interesting book to read.

1167
01:04:34,840 --> 01:04:37,840
Speaker 1: It's a difficult book to to read as well. Uh,

1168
01:04:37,920 --> 01:04:40,280
Speaker 1: A lot of Lui's writing on this sort of thing.

1169
01:04:40,560 --> 01:04:44,760
Speaker 1: Um it seems to be a fascinating synthesis of converging discipline,

1170
01:04:44,880 --> 01:04:48,120
Speaker 1: so he's he's dealing with mysticism and new age thought.

1171
01:04:48,480 --> 01:04:52,880
Speaker 1: He's also using a lot of computer programming terminology and

1172
01:04:52,880 --> 01:04:56,560
Speaker 1: computer programming metaphors and as his evidence in the title. Yeah,

1173
01:04:56,600 --> 01:04:58,520
Speaker 1: and that goes back to when he was talking about

1174
01:04:58,520 --> 01:05:00,000
Speaker 1: the dolphins at the end of it too, he said

1175
01:05:00,160 --> 01:05:04,160
Speaker 1: they reprogrammed him. And then there's a lot of psychoanalysis

1176
01:05:04,200 --> 01:05:06,240
Speaker 1: in there as well. Like any discipline he's picked up,

1177
01:05:06,240 --> 01:05:10,160
Speaker 1: any technology has picked up, it goes into this writing.

1178
01:05:10,400 --> 01:05:13,440
Speaker 1: And at times there's almost a stream of consciousness quality

1179
01:05:13,440 --> 01:05:16,320
Speaker 1: to the writings, as if all all three of these

1180
01:05:16,360 --> 01:05:19,440
Speaker 1: interpretive systems are working at the same time in different ways,

1181
01:05:19,480 --> 01:05:21,840
Speaker 1: and literally is just sharing his thoughts in real time.

1182
01:05:22,560 --> 01:05:25,600
Speaker 1: And this can be at times alluring, it can be

1183
01:05:25,880 --> 01:05:30,200
Speaker 1: rather alienating. Their portions of programming the human computer that

1184
01:05:30,200 --> 01:05:36,439
Speaker 1: that read like the stuffiest trip guides you could possibly imagine. Yeah, yeah,

1185
01:05:36,440 --> 01:05:38,720
Speaker 1: I can sort of imagine, especially because right, like he

1186
01:05:38,800 --> 01:05:40,960
Speaker 1: was beholden to no one. He's just kind of writing

1187
01:05:41,280 --> 01:05:43,560
Speaker 1: if his present day he'd be publishing kindle e books

1188
01:05:43,600 --> 01:05:46,440
Speaker 1: or something like that, Right, but like, isn't there still

1189
01:05:46,480 --> 01:05:48,920
Speaker 1: like a trust or something like that? That manages his

1190
01:05:49,720 --> 01:05:53,120
Speaker 1: manages manages his publishing endeavors. Yeah, I believe so. I

1191
01:05:53,120 --> 01:05:55,640
Speaker 1: mean all his books are still out there in one

1192
01:05:55,680 --> 01:05:58,160
Speaker 1: form or another. Um. But you know, even though at

1193
01:05:58,160 --> 01:06:00,160
Speaker 1: times there's stuffy, there other times where it does just

1194
01:06:00,200 --> 01:06:06,680
Speaker 1: read like pure um psychonautic poetry. He's uh, he's he's

1195
01:06:06,760 --> 01:06:09,040
Speaker 1: taking all of this these tools and he's trying to,

1196
01:06:09,760 --> 01:06:12,840
Speaker 1: you know, figure out what the self is, what consciousness is,

1197
01:06:12,840 --> 01:06:15,680
Speaker 1: what are the limits of consciousness? Uh? And yeah, at

1198
01:06:15,720 --> 01:06:18,560
Speaker 1: times it's beautiful and at times it's it's very difficult

1199
01:06:18,560 --> 01:06:21,320
Speaker 1: and alienating. And so this gets us into the lily

1200
01:06:21,400 --> 01:06:24,360
Speaker 1: phase that I have the hardest time identifying with. Up

1201
01:06:24,440 --> 01:06:27,560
Speaker 1: until this point, I'm on board, you know, I'm interested

1202
01:06:27,600 --> 01:06:30,320
Speaker 1: in what he's doing, interested in his findings, even when

1203
01:06:30,360 --> 01:06:34,680
Speaker 1: it comes to like, you know, uh, masturbating a dolphin

1204
01:06:34,920 --> 01:06:38,200
Speaker 1: and taking LSD to try to telepathically communicate with them.

1205
01:06:38,240 --> 01:06:41,840
Speaker 1: Like I'm I'm interested. But then we get into uh,

1206
01:06:42,120 --> 01:06:45,200
Speaker 1: I guess it's the echo phase. This is where, by

1207
01:06:45,200 --> 01:06:47,560
Speaker 1: the way, like connected to the Echo the Dolphin video game,

1208
01:06:47,600 --> 01:06:50,520
Speaker 1: it's not echo e C h O, it's e c

1209
01:06:50,520 --> 01:06:56,040
Speaker 1: CEO because it's an acronym. Oh. Yes, Earth Coincidence Control Office. Yeah.

1210
01:06:56,120 --> 01:06:59,080
Speaker 1: So yeah, this ends up coming at about in the

1211
01:06:59,160 --> 01:07:02,680
Speaker 1: in the seventies really, but you see the roots of

1212
01:07:02,680 --> 01:07:07,040
Speaker 1: it back as far as nineteen two. Okay, um, because

1213
01:07:07,160 --> 01:07:11,560
Speaker 1: with his counterculture celebrity status he attracted a lot of peers, followers,

1214
01:07:11,600 --> 01:07:14,920
Speaker 1: hangers on from all corners, including some of the day's

1215
01:07:14,920 --> 01:07:17,960
Speaker 1: most brilliant freethinking minds, such as a young Carl Sagan

1216
01:07:18,040 --> 01:07:21,560
Speaker 1: for interesting, and by sixty two he'd organized the Order

1217
01:07:21,680 --> 01:07:26,640
Speaker 1: of the Dolphin and served as Grand Dolphin. And it's

1218
01:07:26,680 --> 01:07:30,240
Speaker 1: important to note that this was I kind of think

1219
01:07:30,280 --> 01:07:32,200
Speaker 1: of this as kind of like, um, it's kind of

1220
01:07:32,200 --> 01:07:34,720
Speaker 1: like a tool album. It's it's serious, but it's also

1221
01:07:34,800 --> 01:07:37,880
Speaker 1: not that serious. There's this performance are too. Yeah, there's

1222
01:07:37,880 --> 01:07:39,880
Speaker 1: a certain amount of performance are, there's a certain amount

1223
01:07:39,880 --> 01:07:42,240
Speaker 1: of goofery. But then there are also some serious undertones

1224
01:07:42,280 --> 01:07:47,720
Speaker 1: as well. So this involves astrophysicist, radio astronomers, atmosphere at chemists,

1225
01:07:47,720 --> 01:07:52,720
Speaker 1: computer engineers, um. And they even apparently have special special

1226
01:07:52,960 --> 01:07:55,680
Speaker 1: pins that they would wear. Man, can you imaginef we

1227
01:07:55,680 --> 01:07:57,840
Speaker 1: could get ahold of some of those pins for a

1228
01:07:57,840 --> 01:08:00,280
Speaker 1: pretty penny on eBay. Yes, sir, someone will want to

1229
01:08:00,320 --> 01:08:03,560
Speaker 1: make sure one of his acts, one of his coonskin hats. Yeah,

1230
01:08:03,960 --> 01:08:07,600
Speaker 1: it was apparently a little Engrave dolphin. And eventually a

1231
01:08:07,640 --> 01:08:11,800
Speaker 1: lot of his more sci fi oriented ideas come out

1232
01:08:11,800 --> 01:08:15,440
Speaker 1: of this period as well. And again like I'm I'm

1233
01:08:15,480 --> 01:08:19,040
Speaker 1: I'm not a percent sure that Lily actually believed this stuff, right,

1234
01:08:19,080 --> 01:08:21,120
Speaker 1: I think it's we need to cover it in order

1235
01:08:21,160 --> 01:08:23,800
Speaker 1: to sort of get the full Lily picture here, Right.

1236
01:08:23,880 --> 01:08:27,880
Speaker 1: I get the feeling that this is sort of him, like, yeah,

1237
01:08:28,200 --> 01:08:31,640
Speaker 1: performance art, maybe creating like living metaphors in order to

1238
01:08:31,680 --> 01:08:35,320
Speaker 1: somehow communicate his ideas out to people, right, Like, the

1239
01:08:35,400 --> 01:08:39,679
Speaker 1: more absurd and spectacular the idea, the more attention it's

1240
01:08:39,680 --> 01:08:42,800
Speaker 1: possibly going to get. Yeah, I mean a literal interpretation

1241
01:08:42,800 --> 01:08:44,519
Speaker 1: of some of these things we're talking about here, of

1242
01:08:44,560 --> 01:08:47,200
Speaker 1: his later ideas and writing it, it seems a bit

1243
01:08:47,200 --> 01:08:51,200
Speaker 1: too simple for such a complex individual, especially when we

1244
01:08:51,240 --> 01:08:53,879
Speaker 1: looked at what Lily himself wrote about his early writings.

1245
01:08:53,880 --> 01:08:58,439
Speaker 1: In particular in uh the nineteen seventy two forward to

1246
01:08:59,280 --> 01:09:02,200
Speaker 1: a reprint of Programming and metaprom and the Better Programming

1247
01:09:02,200 --> 01:09:04,640
Speaker 1: in the Human Biocomputer, he said, I had written the

1248
01:09:04,680 --> 01:09:07,760
Speaker 1: report in such a way that it's basic messages were

1249
01:09:07,840 --> 01:09:10,680
Speaker 1: hidden behind a heavy, long introduction designed to stop the

1250
01:09:10,720 --> 01:09:14,640
Speaker 1: casual reader. Apparently, once word got out, this device no

1251
01:09:14,720 --> 01:09:18,519
Speaker 1: longer stalled the interested readers. Somehow, the basic messages were

1252
01:09:18,520 --> 01:09:22,600
Speaker 1: important enough to enough readers so that the work acquired

1253
01:09:22,640 --> 01:09:26,960
Speaker 1: an unexpected viability. So he's all, he's already talking at

1254
01:09:26,960 --> 01:09:30,040
Speaker 1: that stage about a kind of coded nature to his work,

1255
01:09:30,479 --> 01:09:33,720
Speaker 1: that that he's hiding ideas that he's and that he's

1256
01:09:33,840 --> 01:09:37,680
Speaker 1: layering these ideas. So it seems, yeah, in light of that,

1257
01:09:37,800 --> 01:09:41,759
Speaker 1: it seems a bit counterintuitive to say that, for instance,

1258
01:09:41,760 --> 01:09:45,599
Speaker 1: when he's talking about the threat of a um solid

1259
01:09:45,640 --> 01:09:50,479
Speaker 1: state intelligence, that he's leap speaking literally. Yeah, I mean

1260
01:09:50,520 --> 01:09:52,800
Speaker 1: we have to remember back up, like, this is a

1261
01:09:52,800 --> 01:09:58,120
Speaker 1: guy whose whole purpose in life was human consciousness and uh,

1262
01:09:58,280 --> 01:10:03,920
Speaker 1: connecting human consciousness to other consciousnesses, right, and language, he's

1263
01:10:04,000 --> 01:10:06,000
Speaker 1: fully aware that language is the best way that we're

1264
01:10:06,040 --> 01:10:08,240
Speaker 1: doing that now and the ways to manipulate it in

1265
01:10:08,360 --> 01:10:11,599
Speaker 1: order to sort of best I guess you could almost

1266
01:10:11,640 --> 01:10:14,040
Speaker 1: look at it as a like tool of rhetoric, right,

1267
01:10:14,400 --> 01:10:16,720
Speaker 1: in order for him to get his ideas across. But yeah,

1268
01:10:16,800 --> 01:10:19,200
Speaker 1: let's back up with like the solid state and the

1269
01:10:19,240 --> 01:10:22,000
Speaker 1: echoes stuff. So this is this is pretty out there,

1270
01:10:22,120 --> 01:10:26,360
Speaker 1: like he posits that there's like an alien intelligence that's

1271
01:10:26,400 --> 01:10:29,080
Speaker 1: kind of in control of everything, right, Yeah, this is

1272
01:10:29,120 --> 01:10:32,560
Speaker 1: where we get into that, uh, into this idea that

1273
01:10:32,560 --> 01:10:37,080
Speaker 1: there's a hierarchy of coincidence control offices at the Earth level,

1274
01:10:37,120 --> 01:10:39,720
Speaker 1: solar level, galactic and cosmics. So again that's where we

1275
01:10:39,720 --> 01:10:43,800
Speaker 1: get down to echo right Earth coincidence control offices, and

1276
01:10:43,800 --> 01:10:47,040
Speaker 1: these are essentially serving the same purpose of God as

1277
01:10:47,040 --> 01:10:50,240
Speaker 1: a controlling intelligence in the universe. So this is really

1278
01:10:50,240 --> 01:10:54,400
Speaker 1: this is really turning to two notions of spirituality, really

1279
01:10:54,439 --> 01:10:57,840
Speaker 1: thinking about God and putting his own spin on what

1280
01:10:58,160 --> 01:11:01,519
Speaker 1: God would be in his world of you. Yeah. Yeah,

1281
01:11:01,560 --> 01:11:03,840
Speaker 1: and it's not that far off from like other I'm

1282
01:11:03,880 --> 01:11:08,160
Speaker 1: thinking like Philip K. Dick for definitely, like he's writing

1283
01:11:08,160 --> 01:11:10,680
Speaker 1: around the same period of time, so it's not that

1284
01:11:10,760 --> 01:11:13,760
Speaker 1: far off. I can imagine that Lily would maybe pick

1285
01:11:13,840 --> 01:11:16,519
Speaker 1: up something like Vallis and be like, Okay, maybe this

1286
01:11:16,560 --> 01:11:18,320
Speaker 1: is a cool idea for me to get my ideas

1287
01:11:18,320 --> 01:11:21,720
Speaker 1: of consciousness across now that the Navy has pulled my funding. Yeah.

1288
01:11:21,760 --> 01:11:24,920
Speaker 1: He also, as I alluded to earlier, he prophesied a

1289
01:11:25,000 --> 01:11:30,320
Speaker 1: future conflict between organic intelligence and machine intelligence, and which

1290
01:11:30,320 --> 01:11:33,160
Speaker 1: he referred to as the solid state intelligence or s

1291
01:11:33,160 --> 01:11:36,000
Speaker 1: s I, so specifically, he said this would be a

1292
01:11:36,040 --> 01:11:41,240
Speaker 1: conflict over ideal environmental conditions for either humans or the

1293
01:11:41,320 --> 01:11:45,160
Speaker 1: sort of s s I created bioforms that crave cold

1294
01:11:45,280 --> 01:11:49,240
Speaker 1: and vacuums. So yeah, yeah, well, I mean and then

1295
01:11:49,479 --> 01:11:51,759
Speaker 1: along this period of time too, is when he envisions

1296
01:11:51,760 --> 01:11:53,679
Speaker 1: what I was telling you about earlier, which I thought

1297
01:11:53,800 --> 01:11:56,080
Speaker 1: was where the apartment thing was going, but he called

1298
01:11:56,080 --> 01:11:59,280
Speaker 1: it the future communications laboratory, and he called it a

1299
01:11:59,360 --> 01:12:02,559
Speaker 1: floating living room. Uh. And the idea is that this

1300
01:12:02,640 --> 01:12:05,120
Speaker 1: is where humans and dolphins would come to connect. So

1301
01:12:05,120 --> 01:12:08,040
Speaker 1: I'm imagining something like along the lines of like a

1302
01:12:08,080 --> 01:12:12,240
Speaker 1: c world type thing that's less uh imprisoning to the dolphins,

1303
01:12:12,320 --> 01:12:14,240
Speaker 1: right where the dolphins can kind of come up and

1304
01:12:14,320 --> 01:12:17,960
Speaker 1: interact with human beings. Uh. And and so that that

1305
01:12:18,080 --> 01:12:20,600
Speaker 1: idea is like along those same lines, I guess. But

1306
01:12:20,680 --> 01:12:23,200
Speaker 1: we have to remember to like nineteen seventy two, the

1307
01:12:23,240 --> 01:12:25,799
Speaker 1: same time he's he's he's getting into this real weird stuff.

1308
01:12:25,960 --> 01:12:31,120
Speaker 1: Lily's pivotal to establishing the Marine Mammal Protection Act within

1309
01:12:31,160 --> 01:12:34,800
Speaker 1: the United States government. You know, I mean, he's grounded.

1310
01:12:34,960 --> 01:12:39,760
Speaker 1: He's actually affecting change and in how human beings are

1311
01:12:39,800 --> 01:12:44,559
Speaker 1: connecting with dolphins. But he's also you know, experimenting with

1312
01:12:44,600 --> 01:12:46,800
Speaker 1: some of this other stuff. Yeah, I have to say,

1313
01:12:46,840 --> 01:12:48,960
Speaker 1: just like backing up and looking at the big picture here.

1314
01:12:49,000 --> 01:12:51,920
Speaker 1: I think he was having a laugh, you know, or

1315
01:12:52,080 --> 01:12:55,960
Speaker 1: or or maybe just trying to use um, some really

1316
01:12:56,000 --> 01:12:58,880
Speaker 1: out there ideas in order to draw attention to his

1317
01:12:59,000 --> 01:13:04,520
Speaker 1: more grounded philosophy. Yeah, he's more of a mystical philosopher, dreamer,

1318
01:13:04,600 --> 01:13:06,519
Speaker 1: and to a certain extent, trickster. You can't wear a

1319
01:13:06,560 --> 01:13:12,400
Speaker 1: coonskin calf like that and expect to be taking taking seriously,

1320
01:13:12,439 --> 01:13:14,400
Speaker 1: You're kind of winking at the audience at that point.

1321
01:13:14,800 --> 01:13:17,800
Speaker 1: But but to your point, Yeah, he he was a

1322
01:13:18,040 --> 01:13:22,600
Speaker 1: was a major proponent of of not only the intelligence

1323
01:13:22,640 --> 01:13:24,920
Speaker 1: and value of dolphins but they're in Wales, but their

1324
01:13:25,040 --> 01:13:27,920
Speaker 1: their rights as well. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean he believed

1325
01:13:28,000 --> 01:13:31,439
Speaker 1: that killing whales and dolphins was as immoral as killing

1326
01:13:31,439 --> 01:13:34,320
Speaker 1: other human beings, and they should be protected by law

1327
01:13:34,600 --> 01:13:37,640
Speaker 1: and humans should understand them as sentient beings. This is

1328
01:13:37,640 --> 01:13:39,479
Speaker 1: one of the big quotes that I saw pop up

1329
01:13:39,479 --> 01:13:42,120
Speaker 1: from him over and over and over again about dolphins.

1330
01:13:42,120 --> 01:13:45,400
Speaker 1: He said, they are not someone to kill, but someone

1331
01:13:45,479 --> 01:13:48,280
Speaker 1: to learn from, and I think you see that, and

1332
01:13:48,960 --> 01:13:52,040
Speaker 1: at least we're not quite there yet obviously, but I mean, like,

1333
01:13:52,120 --> 01:13:55,280
Speaker 1: think of all of the protests over the last couple

1334
01:13:55,280 --> 01:13:58,679
Speaker 1: of decades about like dolphins getting killed in tuna traps,

1335
01:13:58,840 --> 01:14:03,760
Speaker 1: right like that kind of uh thought about dolphins would

1336
01:14:03,840 --> 01:14:07,519
Speaker 1: not have been possible without Lily. Indeed, So there you

1337
01:14:07,600 --> 01:14:11,200
Speaker 1: have it, John C. Lily hopefully a a much more

1338
01:14:11,280 --> 01:14:15,240
Speaker 1: complete picture of the man and his work, his seriousness,

1339
01:14:15,280 --> 01:14:20,799
Speaker 1: his madness, his his his imagination and his just you know, intense,

1340
01:14:21,600 --> 01:14:25,040
Speaker 1: hyper focused intellect um, certainly more so than we've been

1341
01:14:25,080 --> 01:14:28,720
Speaker 1: able to to do in previous episodes. Yeah. So, uh,

1342
01:14:28,920 --> 01:14:31,080
Speaker 1: you know, I would love to hear from people out

1343
01:14:31,080 --> 01:14:33,840
Speaker 1: there who have maybe got some because it seems like

1344
01:14:33,880 --> 01:14:37,120
Speaker 1: there's just such a wide array of resources about Lily.

1345
01:14:37,360 --> 01:14:39,599
Speaker 1: Is there something that we missed here or is there

1346
01:14:39,640 --> 01:14:42,479
Speaker 1: more to the story. Maybe you know something about Echo

1347
01:14:42,520 --> 01:14:44,320
Speaker 1: that we don't know. Maybe you've been in touch with

1348
01:14:44,320 --> 01:14:47,280
Speaker 1: the Solid State intelligence. Uh, you know, you can talk

1349
01:14:47,320 --> 01:14:49,880
Speaker 1: to us on Facebook, Twitter, and Tumbler. Were in all

1350
01:14:49,880 --> 01:14:52,640
Speaker 1: those platforms, and of course the best way to get

1351
01:14:52,680 --> 01:14:55,919
Speaker 1: in touch with us is directly at our email address,

1352
01:14:56,040 --> 01:14:59,800
Speaker 1: which is blow the mind at how Stuff Works dot com. Now,

1353
01:15:00,000 --> 01:15:02,400
Speaker 1: most of you are used to the show ending right there.

1354
01:15:02,479 --> 01:15:05,559
Speaker 1: We usually end it right after dot Com, but we're

1355
01:15:05,560 --> 01:15:07,600
Speaker 1: going to end a little differently today. Right Robert, you

1356
01:15:07,680 --> 01:15:09,680
Speaker 1: found a particular gem that we're going to add to

1357
01:15:09,720 --> 01:15:11,639
Speaker 1: the episode. That's try. We're going to close it out

1358
01:15:11,680 --> 01:15:14,760
Speaker 1: with the Art Department track The Agent, off of the

1359
01:15:14,840 --> 01:15:19,080
Speaker 1: two thousand fourteen album Natural Selection from Number nineteen Music.

1360
01:15:19,200 --> 01:15:23,599
Speaker 1: There uh in O one nine music on Facebook, Twitter,

1361
01:15:23,640 --> 01:15:26,080
Speaker 1: and Instagram. This is a really cool track and it

1362
01:15:26,120 --> 01:15:30,160
Speaker 1: includes samples from John C. Lily's lecture through the Center

1363
01:15:30,360 --> 01:15:36,920
Speaker 1: of the Mandala. One problem in human existence it's the

1364
01:15:37,000 --> 01:16:17,840
Speaker 1: tendency to repeat repeating wants control m. For more on

1365
01:16:17,920 --> 01:16:20,639
Speaker 1: this and thousands of other topics, visit how stuff Works

1366
01:16:20,680 --> 01:16:34,200
Speaker 1: dot com.