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Speaker 1: You're listening to Math and Magic, a production of I

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Speaker 1: Heart Radio. When I first got out of school, there

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Speaker 1: was a recession. There was no jobs in advertising to

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Speaker 1: be gotten, and certainly very few of them in Tampa, Florida.

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Speaker 1: It was like a l Meno year, and a bunch

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Speaker 1: of barracuda had been driven pretty far north in the

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Speaker 1: Gulf of Mexico and they started jumping out of the

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Speaker 1: water in biting people with jewelry on. And so I

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Speaker 1: was like business opportunity. And if you're not from Florida,

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Speaker 1: like a barracuda can be a four to six ft

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Speaker 1: mouth of teeth essentially, and one flying out of the water.

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Speaker 1: It would be terrifying. What if I did Florida's version

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Speaker 1: of the Jackalope and convinced people that there are such

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Speaker 1: things as flying barracuda. I'm Bob Pittman. Welcome to Math

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Speaker 1: and Magic Stories from the Frontiers and Marketing, where we

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Speaker 1: explore that combination of analytics and creativity that lead to

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Speaker 1: the huge marketing and company's successes. On today's episode, we

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Speaker 1: have a guest who lives right at that intersection. Hard

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Speaker 1: to imagine a more perfect practitioner of math and magic

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Speaker 1: Scott Hagendorn, CEO of Omnicom Media Group North America Operations.

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Speaker 1: Scott is a native Floridian loved advertising even an early age.

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Speaker 1: Supposedly he wrote an essay about it in the sixth grade,

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Speaker 1: and he actually realized that childhood dream. He had his

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Speaker 1: first big breakthrough selling flying barracudas. That's right, that's right,

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Speaker 1: fiber glass veracutas with fake owl wings attached. There's gotta

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Speaker 1: be some fun lessons in that, which we'll get into.

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Speaker 1: He comes from a family with ties to everything, from

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Speaker 1: having a patent for a clamp that holds the mattress

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Speaker 1: and beg covers to the bed that was probably high

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Speaker 1: tech back then, all the way to finance, including I

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Speaker 1: guess helping World Wrestling raise money as well. He's played

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Speaker 1: in a rock band, and he's made money mowing yards

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Speaker 1: and removing snakes from people's backyards, and even has a

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Speaker 1: scar to prove it there it is right in his hand.

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Speaker 1: You can't see it, but I can. But he's probably

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Speaker 1: best known as the guy who developed the new world

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Speaker 1: of data driven advertising and analytics. But before we get

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Speaker 1: into all those stories and more, let's do you in

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Speaker 1: sixties seconds welcome Scott. Hey, how you doing good? Good?

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Speaker 1: You're ready to go? Ready rock Scott? Do you prefer

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Speaker 1: cats or dogs? Miami or Atlanta? Atlanta? Twitter or Instagram? Instagram?

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Speaker 1: Piano or guitar piano? Black Mirror or Game of Thrones,

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Speaker 1: Black Mirror, Radiohead or The Rolling Stones Radiohead, Sex Pistols

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Speaker 1: or The Clash, The Clash music or sports of music.

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Speaker 1: It's about to get harder. Okay, secret talent. I'm really

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Speaker 1: fast underwater because I'm bald. Favorite city got to be

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Speaker 1: New York. Smartest person you know, I'd have to say

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Speaker 1: Carl Sagan, but I don't know him, but I feel

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Speaker 1: like he would be the smartest person I would know.

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Speaker 1: That counts aildhood hero. Kiss someone you'd like to meet.

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Speaker 1: I'd like to meet the guy that writes Black Mirror,

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Speaker 1: to be honest with you. First job, well, first job

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Speaker 1: was snake removal from people's yards in Florida. But first

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Speaker 1: legit job with a paycheck was public bad boy. Favorite

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Speaker 1: song to sing Emotional Rescue by The Rolling Stones. Best

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Speaker 1: live concert This is gonna be obscure, But Adams for

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Speaker 1: Peace at the Berkeley Center That is obscure. Favorite TV

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Speaker 1: show of all time, it's gonna have to be star trek.

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Speaker 1: Who would play you in a movie? Probably Witty Harrelson.

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Speaker 1: What did you want to be when you were growing up?

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Speaker 1: I actually wanted to be an advertising when I was

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Speaker 1: growing up, even though my dad's job was cool and

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Speaker 1: financial services. He was an investment banker and he helped

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Speaker 1: get the World Wrestling Federation going. Andre the Giant came

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Speaker 1: over to dinner at my house with Gordon Soley. That's

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Speaker 1: pretty cool, yea yeah, and the Iron Cheek and Dusty Rhodes.

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Speaker 1: I'll never forget. I was like, Mr SOULI is wrestling real?

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Speaker 1: And he put his arm on my shoulder and he said, Scott,

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Speaker 1: of it. And so, after rubbing shoulders with some of

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Speaker 1: this stuff, how ton interest in? How do you persuade

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Speaker 1: and influence people? And and how does that work psychologically?

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Speaker 1: And so it kind of drew me into the field.

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Speaker 1: And my dad was really helpful because he had invested

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Speaker 1: in helped to raise money for a lot of marketing

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Speaker 1: services firms and agencies and companies, and so I got

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Speaker 1: a lot of internships. Let's spend a little more time

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Speaker 1: getting into the mind and ambitions of the young Scott.

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Speaker 1: You grew up in South Florida in the seventies and eighties.

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Speaker 1: Can you give us a picture of that world at

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Speaker 1: that time? Yeah, seatbelts optional for sure. In the seventies,

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Speaker 1: you know, Miami during the like Mary All Boatlift era

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Speaker 1: was kind of crazy. It was this really weird melting

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Speaker 1: pot and we would kind of go back and forth

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Speaker 1: between Tampa and Miami, which culturally those two places couldn't

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Speaker 1: be more different. Now that I have kids, I have

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Speaker 1: a six year old and eight year old, and I

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Speaker 1: remember when I was probably four or five, riding around

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Speaker 1: our neighborhood on a big wheel and just getting into

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Speaker 1: absolute mayhem. By the time I was a there's this

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Speaker 1: canal system called the Sea fourteen. It was dug by

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Speaker 1: the U. S. Army Corps of in years and there

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Speaker 1: was a landfill hill, it was only hill in Miami,

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Speaker 1: and we set up a ramp at the end of

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Speaker 1: the hill and we would tie milk cartons to our

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Speaker 1: BMX bikes and jump them like fifteen feet into the

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Speaker 1: air into an alligator infested canal. And that was what

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Speaker 1: we would do all day, and then I'd roll back

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Speaker 1: home for dinner. And that was when I was about

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Speaker 1: eight juxtaposing what my kids can do now in New York,

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Speaker 1: it seems like it was pretty unrestricted to the fact

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Speaker 1: that my parents encouraged me to set up a side

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Speaker 1: hustle business. Removing snakes from people's yards gives you a

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Speaker 1: little bit of a feel for what life was. Okay,

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Speaker 1: let's get into that, because this is probably the most

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Speaker 1: interesting thing about you is that you are a snake wrangler.

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Speaker 1: How on earth did somebody convince you to do that?

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Speaker 1: And how did you do it? The lawnmowing circuit was

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Speaker 1: oversaturated in South Florida and it started. I was like,

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Speaker 1: always really curious about snakes. It was Florida in the seventies.

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Speaker 1: So I was like, oh, well, if I get like

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Speaker 1: a one of the screws with a hole in it

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Speaker 1: and another screw and then cut a piece of hyre

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Speaker 1: and put it through there, that I could fashion like

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Speaker 1: a noose and grab them around their neck and then

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Speaker 1: kind of remove them from a property. And I would

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Speaker 1: charge twenty dollars a snake to do it. And where

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Speaker 1: would you put the snakes? I would just take them

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Speaker 1: into the woods and drop them off. When it went sideways,

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Speaker 1: I didn't have my little thing and somebody wanted me

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Speaker 1: to get a water moccasin off their property, and I

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Speaker 1: had gotten a little bit cocky and I just grabbed it.

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Speaker 1: It bit me through the finger. So I went home

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Speaker 1: and I'm like, Mom, I think I need to go

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Speaker 1: to the hospital. I got bitten by a water moccasin.

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Speaker 1: So she calls the hospital and they're like, are you

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Speaker 1: sure it was a water moccasin and not a brown

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Speaker 1: water snake and I'm like, I don't know, but it

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Speaker 1: bit me and it looked like a wakasin. They're like, okay, well,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna need you to come in, but you also

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Speaker 1: have to bring the head of the snake in. My

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Speaker 1: mom was like, okay, you're gonna have to go cut

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Speaker 1: the head of the snake off so we can take

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Speaker 1: it in with you to the hospital. And so I

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Speaker 1: grabbed this crappy old machete that we have and went

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Speaker 1: back to find the snake, and I proceeded to chop

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Speaker 1: its head off, but the machete was so dull it

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Speaker 1: just mutilated the whole thing and we ended up taking

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Speaker 1: this sounds crazy now, We ended up taking it into

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Speaker 1: trash bag to the hospital and they're like, we can't

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Speaker 1: really tell what kind of snake it is because the

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Speaker 1: heads destroyed and I was like, what, you know, like

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Speaker 1: why we have to do this whole exercise, you know,

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Speaker 1: why don't you just assume it's a water moccasin and

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Speaker 1: give me some antibodies or something. This is ridiculous. But

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Speaker 1: that was Florida. Yeah, that was Florida. So let's get

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Speaker 1: a little bit about your family life. We were getting

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Speaker 1: a little bit of a collar of it. Now. Your

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Speaker 1: grandfather was an inventor, that's right. He worked for a

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Speaker 1: steel company called Armco in Middletown, Ohio, ran their South

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Speaker 1: American operations. But because he was in steel, he also

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Speaker 1: fabricated stuff out of steel. He made crib guards and

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Speaker 1: my dad was in the ads for them. Maybe that

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Speaker 1: muld have been one of my advertising triggers. But he

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Speaker 1: also made the flip top things that used to put

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Speaker 1: on glass coke containers and pepsi containers. There was like

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Speaker 1: a flavorsaver thing where you could pop it and save

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Speaker 1: the carbonation. It was also a bottle opener, and so yeah,

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Speaker 1: he used to make and fabricated stuff out of steel

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Speaker 1: and then get patents for m and sell it. And

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Speaker 1: you didn't go down that path. I did not get

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Speaker 1: into the steel fabrication pass. It's one of the few

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Speaker 1: I haven't. So you started on the guitar at age six?

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Speaker 1: How did that happen? That sounds pretty young. I was

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Speaker 1: always into rock. My cousin had given up playing guitar,

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Speaker 1: and they gave me like a little Spanish guitar nylon string.

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Speaker 1: I just kind of picked it up, took some lessons,

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Speaker 1: and stayed at it. And I was always really introverted,

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Speaker 1: so I did a lot of hanging out in my

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Speaker 1: room playing guitar, practicing, kind of playing along with stuff,

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Speaker 1: and just kind of stuck with it. You taunt yourself

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Speaker 1: pretty much. I had some lessons, but my lessons would

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Speaker 1: always be song oriented. The instructor would be like, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: we need to teach you scales, and I like, I

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Speaker 1: don't care about the scales. I just want to learn

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Speaker 1: a C D C. Can we get down to that, please. So,

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Speaker 1: when you think about the guitar, was it creative, was

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Speaker 1: it mathematical or was it therapeutic? I'd say creative and

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Speaker 1: therapeutic until I got into like the eighties, late eighties.

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Speaker 1: I had a warlock, and then I had a Steve

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Speaker 1: Jim seven seven Ivanez with Randy Rhodes and Ing Bay

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Speaker 1: Malmstein and a lot of those guitars, it increasingly became

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Speaker 1: mathematical and trying to keep up with them like Warren

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Speaker 1: de Martini from RATT and George Lynch from DOC and

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Speaker 1: mc ronson from David Bowie. He was sort of the cursor,

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Speaker 1: I think to a lot of the kind of the

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Speaker 1: metal and I've got turned onto him in that Aside

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Speaker 1: Bowie documentary where I was just like, Wow, this guy

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Speaker 1: was the precursor. Randy Rhodes, a lot of the eighties

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Speaker 1: kind of soloing brought me into more of a mathematical

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Speaker 1: state with it. So we're gonna come to that in

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Speaker 1: a minute, because I really want to get into where

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Speaker 1: these analytical skills came from and that math approach to advertising.

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Speaker 1: But what lessons did you learn in your childhood that

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Speaker 1: guide you today. My mom has always been a very

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Speaker 1: empathetic and kind person. She used to teach high school English,

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Speaker 1: and coming from the South and also coming from both

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Speaker 1: my father and my mother being very kind and respectful people.

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Speaker 1: I try to carry that level of empathy and connection

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Speaker 1: with folks, the ability to try to connect with people

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Speaker 1: and not have your guard up all the time is

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Speaker 1: something that I've tried to preserve and carry with me.

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Speaker 1: Hopefully it's with the level of humility, because I think

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Speaker 1: that humility is often should be something that somebody senses

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Speaker 1: in you and not something you say you are. But

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Speaker 1: I hope that I carry myself with the level of

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Speaker 1: humility as well. Do you think that's part Southern culture too?

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Speaker 1: Partially people in the South look down on Florida. It's

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Speaker 1: like a vestigial of pay didg that they think it

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Speaker 1: should maybe get removed. Getting out of Florida was like

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Speaker 1: step one, and you're like, okay, I'm from Florida, so

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Speaker 1: I come from the swamp. And then Atlanta was a

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Speaker 1: step up from that, and the New York was step

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Speaker 1: up from that. You know, some of that kind of

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Speaker 1: Southern culture in terms of respect and humility, I think

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Speaker 1: is probably regional. I'm from Mississippi. We always go to Florida.

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Speaker 1: We wanted those petrified forests and the alligator farms. You

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Speaker 1: moved from childhood to college, you kept playing the guitar,

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Speaker 1: You continued your passion for advertising. You actually majored in

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Speaker 1: advertising with a minor and computer science and anthropology interesting combination.

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Speaker 1: At that moment in time, you're clearly setting yourself up

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Speaker 1: for what you've done in advertising, the future of advertising,

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Speaker 1: and presumably you gave up snake wrangling. Did you deliberately

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Speaker 1: say this is the future of advertising on need computer

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Speaker 1: science or it just happened to be another interest. It

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Speaker 1: was another interest. My parents had an apple to e

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Speaker 1: and the den and nobody used it. So I learned

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Speaker 1: how to program, and Pascal and Turtle and c Cliffs

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Speaker 1: of Pus and a lot of those older programming languages.

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Speaker 1: I was always fascinated by the human to technology connection

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Speaker 1: and also the reverse of that of looking at civilizations

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Speaker 1: or populations that didn't have a lot of influence from

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Speaker 1: technology and how does technology change them. So I was

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Speaker 1: kind of playing in that area and thinking a little

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Speaker 1: bit about it. And then when I got my first

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Speaker 1: real job in advertising, the position I took with Bell Labs,

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Speaker 1: or a T and T paradigm that used to be

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Speaker 1: based out of Largo, Florida. The first assignment they gave

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Speaker 1: me was for the commercial launch of DSL and C

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Speaker 1: s U ds US and multiplexers before the Internet existed,

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Speaker 1: and I was a strategist, and I was like, well,

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Speaker 1: what we should do is really do like a think

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Speaker 1: piece of what it's going to be like when computers

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Speaker 1: leave the den, which is where my dad's was an

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Speaker 1: enter of the family room, and study what we think

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Speaker 1: that's going to do to change family dynamics. And I

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Speaker 1: was fortunate enough to stay on that track, oddly orbiting

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Speaker 1: a T and T most of the time, or Bell

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Speaker 1: South to launch Blackberries with Research in Motion, to launch

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Speaker 1: their first mobile phones with Bell Sealth Mobility. And I

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Speaker 1: was always kind of studying the effect of technology on people,

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Speaker 1: which is how I got into the data driven side

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Speaker 1: of it. You know, it's interesting people sort of forget

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Speaker 1: that originally the Internet was just an application on the computer,

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Speaker 1: but the computer was something completely separate from the Internet.

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Speaker 1: And Steve jobs great change when he did the iMac

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Speaker 1: was he embedded the modem into the computer and he said,

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Speaker 1: the computer is about using the Internet. You know, it

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Speaker 1: seems silly now, but at that moment that was a

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Speaker 1: radical thinking for that business. Yeah, you had to have

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Speaker 1: a Haze modem and dial up through Prodigy to I

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Speaker 1: was at a o L so yeah, we were there.

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Speaker 1: A matter of fact, you know, there were board discussions

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Speaker 1: about should we fight the Internet or embrace it. By

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Speaker 1: the way, Prodigy and compy Serve decided to fight it,

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Speaker 1: and they are well embraced it. Here you are today

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Speaker 1: with one of the top jobs in advertising. You are

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Speaker 1: clearly one of the creators of modern data first advertising business.

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Speaker 1: How much of that came from your college experience and

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Speaker 1: how much came from the work experience and you just

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Speaker 1: sort of evolved in to it In retrospect, A lot

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Speaker 1: of it came out of I think having a bit

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Speaker 1: of a hacker mentality in my whole life. We had

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Speaker 1: a haze modem and I used to try to dial

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Speaker 1: up anything that would answer and break into it. Anything

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Speaker 1: fun were dangerous. After watching War Games, I tried to

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Speaker 1: figure out how to call Norad. We got called about

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Speaker 1: some stuff that I was trying to get into. I

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Speaker 1: ran a bulletin board that I created for Metallica called

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Speaker 1: Ride the Lightning. At the time, it had like animation

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Speaker 1: of a guy in an electric chair getting hit by

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Speaker 1: a lightning bolt when you would log onto it, and

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Speaker 1: it was like a bulletin board. So I had a

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Speaker 1: hardcore like hacker mentality and data driven marketing is more

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Speaker 1: hacker mentality, like how do you hack this thing together

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Speaker 1: to activate it and do something new and cool that

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Speaker 1: delivers results for your clients versus enterprise class. Consumers think

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Speaker 1: everything is sort of enterprise class, and actually, once you

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Speaker 1: get into the hood, it's like a soundboard. There's duct

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Speaker 1: tape and writing on it and stuff plugged into it,

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Speaker 1: and sometimes there's like impedence mismatches that are happening. But

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Speaker 1: that's how I got really into digital and data driven

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Speaker 1: marketing was hacking my way into it. So let's jump

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Speaker 1: to your first business. Why flying barracudas. When I first

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Speaker 1: got out of school, there was a recession. There was

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Speaker 1: no jobs in advertising to be gotten, and certainly very

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Speaker 1: few of them in Tampa, Florida. It was like a

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Speaker 1: l Neno year, and a bunch of barracuda had been

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Speaker 1: driven pretty far north in the Gulf of Mexico and

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Speaker 1: they started jumping out of the water and biting people

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Speaker 1: with jewelry on, and so I was like business opportunity.

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Speaker 1: And if you're not from Florida, like a barracouta can

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Speaker 1: be a four to six ft mouth of teeth essentially,

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Speaker 1: and one flying out of the water. It would be terrifying.

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Speaker 1: What if I did Florida's version of the Jackalope and

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Speaker 1: convinced people that there are such things as flying barracuda.

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Speaker 1: I learned how to do taxidermy, so I kind of

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Speaker 1: hacked my way into taxidermy, and I went and caught

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Speaker 1: a giant barracouta, and then I made a mold out

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Speaker 1: of it, and I fashioned a wing and started producing

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Speaker 1: them out of fiberglass, hand painting them all. But what

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Speaker 1: really took off was I did a T shirt and

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Speaker 1: hat line and it was called the Famous Florida Flying

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Speaker 1: Barracouta Company, and I went in and sold them at

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Speaker 1: Orvis and then I kN somebody at one of the

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Speaker 1: local TV affiliates and they put me on the air

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Speaker 1: about it. And Ben West of West Group or now

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Speaker 1: twenty two Square, saw some of the stuff and was like, dude,

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Speaker 1: you gotta come work here. And that's the way you

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Speaker 1: made the jump. That's something we made a jump. What

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Speaker 1: did you learn from building a product from scratch and

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Speaker 1: running your own company? That one. It takes a lot

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Speaker 1: of moxie, right, and you can bootstrap or hack your

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Speaker 1: way into doing things if you just stick with it

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Speaker 1: and keep your overhead low. I went and worked at

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Speaker 1: West Group for a while. I went client side and

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Speaker 1: ran advertising for a division of Global Crossing called Empower

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Speaker 1: that was trying to do the first voice over DSL products,

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Speaker 1: and I was running advertising for them at like twenty

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Speaker 1: eight and then another recession hit and I recruit a

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Speaker 1: bunch of people out of the agencies that I was using,

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Speaker 1: and we bootstrapped an agency with like five grand. We

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Speaker 1: made her on furniture. I cleaned the toilets, was the

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Speaker 1: head of sales, was the head of strategy, and we

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Speaker 1: started it, grew it to seventy five people, sold it.

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Speaker 1: The way we penetrated the Atlanta market for digital is

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Speaker 1: everyone had taken on really high overhead and all the

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Speaker 1: other agencies were kind of nay it and starting their

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Speaker 1: digital capabilities, and we came in and undercut people like

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Speaker 1: I XL and ones that have taken massive space, and

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Speaker 1: we were just doing it out of my living room.

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Speaker 1: And then we would keep our overhead low, and we

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Speaker 1: became the outsourcing department for digital for all the agencies

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Speaker 1: in Atlanta, and then we grew and sold. What year

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Speaker 1: was that, probably two thousand and two. So at that moment,

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Speaker 1: was it apparent in the advertising business that digital was

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Speaker 1: a must have or was there still the resistance to it? Oh? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there was a lot of like you know, and you know,

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Speaker 1: with the first generation of digital, we had a lot

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Speaker 1: of bravado to us, and so we were thinking everybody

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Speaker 1: that had been in advertising for a while, we're dinosaurs.

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Speaker 1: Until the recession hit and they're like, told you kids,

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Speaker 1: the wind had been taken out of digital sales too early,

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Speaker 1: kind of like what happened with programmatic, right, Programmatic was

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Speaker 1: a bad word until you started being like, hey, this

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Speaker 1: is how we really generate a lot of effectiveness. The

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Speaker 1: industry itself may spoiled the apple a little too early,

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Speaker 1: but now it's actually turning out to be the way

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Speaker 1: everything is sort of done. Just hold on a second,

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Speaker 1: because you've got so much more to talk about. We'll

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Speaker 1: be back after a quick break. Welcome back to math

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Speaker 1: and Magic. We're here with Scott Haggadorn. You're one of

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Speaker 1: the few people who have to say a bit of

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Speaker 1: meetings and I basically say slow down just a little bit,

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Speaker 1: because you began to explain all the capabilities that are

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Speaker 1: available today using data analytics and AI. Where's this going?

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Speaker 1: What does the advertising business look like in five years,

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Speaker 1: and who are those winners and losers in that realignment.

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Speaker 1: I think advertising itself as a like an orchestration engine

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Speaker 1: between media and content and audience signals will get smarter.

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Speaker 1: But I think the most dangerous thing that's happened over

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Speaker 1: the last five or two years is the divorcing of

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Speaker 1: content from context. The content can appear, but if it's

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Speaker 1: not contextually relevant and makes sense on the platform that

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Speaker 1: it's appearing, it's insane. I worry that we're not thinking

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Speaker 1: enough about when consumers are people or audiences are mentally

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Speaker 1: available to be influenced or persuaded or talked to, because

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Speaker 1: we've abused their attention too much as a commodity. You know,

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Speaker 1: we're kind of coming out of the other side of

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Speaker 1: the quant revolution in marketing, and I feel like we're

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Speaker 1: heading into maybe more of a qualitative kind of rebirth

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Speaker 1: of what planning and strategy can look like. How do

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Speaker 1: we value somebody's attention a little bit more? And I

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Speaker 1: think the agency people, I don't like to think that

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Speaker 1: sometimes they're actually competing with the very content that they're

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Speaker 1: showing up next to and some of that content has

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Speaker 1: been designed through user experience, designed to steal their attention

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Speaker 1: away and to get at something deeper psychologically. In my

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Speaker 1: popular do people like me? You're butting up against somebody's

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Speaker 1: self consciousness that is manifested through some of these applications.

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Speaker 1: And so I think there's gonna be a reckoning around that,

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Speaker 1: a revaluing of consumers attention with respect, and a move

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Speaker 1: away from what has been a linear business. On this podcast,

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Speaker 1: obviously talk about math and magic exactly this topic. I

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Speaker 1: can find everybody I know exactly where they are at

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Speaker 1: the right moment, But what am I going to tell

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Speaker 1: them which motivates them? Do you think in the agency

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Speaker 1: world as we look ahead, that there's going to be

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Speaker 1: more thinking about it holistically you got to find them

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Speaker 1: and motivate them, as opposed to some people find them

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Speaker 1: at other people motivate them totally. And also, when do

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Speaker 1: you not talk? The thing that's honestly most exciting about

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Speaker 1: the other side of the data driven revolution is suppression.

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Speaker 1: It sounds nerdy, but it's like, when do you decide

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Speaker 1: not to talk? When do you decide just to pass?

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Speaker 1: Give us an example. Automotive is a great example, like

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Speaker 1: people are only in market for a car for a

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Speaker 1: very brief window of time. I tend to like to

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Speaker 1: think of the automotive marketing business, as my friend Lauren

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Speaker 1: Grossman came up with this is like new car, my car,

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Speaker 1: a car, next car. Right Mentally, you're moving through that progression,

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Speaker 1: and you want to get somebody when they're between a

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Speaker 1: car and thinking about their next car. So that's that window,

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Speaker 1: that in market timing window that you want to talk

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Speaker 1: to somebody. There's a lot of data that sends strong

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Speaker 1: signals of when somebody's in market for a car, not

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Speaker 1: based on their last automotive purchase or their least data

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Speaker 1: or some behavioral search data that should be used. I

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Speaker 1: think to narrow the window of when we're talking to

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Speaker 1: people about when they're in market for a car, because

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Speaker 1: the rest of it is all just just noise. Or

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Speaker 1: if you know somebody has subscribed to your product portfolio,

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Speaker 1: why are you still advertising to them? You shouldn't respect

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Speaker 1: their attention a little bit more and know that you

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Speaker 1: already have a relationship with them. That's why I poorly done.

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Speaker 1: Remarketing drives me Ethan crazy because a lot of times

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Speaker 1: you're getting retargeted. Especially some of the e commerce platforms

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Speaker 1: are kind of sloppy about this about reselling your data.

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Speaker 1: But you're getting retargeted for something you just bought. It's

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Speaker 1: like I just bought that. I mean, thank you. You're

430
00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:50,679
Speaker 1: reminding me that I made a good purchase. Just go away,

431
00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:54,680
Speaker 1: go away. Yeah. So when we look at this realignment,

432
00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:58,399
Speaker 1: how does that change the power players? Who becomes more important,

433
00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:01,520
Speaker 1: who becomes less important in that world. I'm really interested

434
00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:04,640
Speaker 1: in what's happening with content and with streaming right now.

435
00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:08,320
Speaker 1: I'm also really fascinated how Roku and Apple TV have

436
00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:10,879
Speaker 1: made It's almost like they're kind of the reverse of

437
00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:13,360
Speaker 1: Mike TV from Willy Wonka. They've made a jump from

438
00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:15,560
Speaker 1: the real world into the digital world. You know, they're

439
00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:18,560
Speaker 1: going to more applications and less physical product. I think

440
00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:22,000
Speaker 1: a lot of the players that seamlessly and frictionlessly deliver

441
00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:24,679
Speaker 1: content onto a variety of screens are going to be

442
00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:27,520
Speaker 1: the ones that win. I think some of the platforms

443
00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:31,480
Speaker 1: that are just there for vanity and for validating your unpopularity,

444
00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:34,240
Speaker 1: people are snapping out of it. I think people are

445
00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:37,879
Speaker 1: waking up that they're being kind of manipulated and that

446
00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:41,800
Speaker 1: their attention and their devotion to some of these platforms

447
00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:45,280
Speaker 1: that they were somewhat taken advantage of. I'm fascinated to

448
00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:47,159
Speaker 1: see as a student of the industry, what's going to

449
00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:49,520
Speaker 1: happen with marketing during the next election cycle that that's

450
00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:53,920
Speaker 1: starting to play out right now. Two people disconnect from

451
00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:58,159
Speaker 1: media channels and platforms that make them feel bad. I

452
00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:01,679
Speaker 1: know for sure that revertising on those platforms can have

453
00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:04,520
Speaker 1: the very opposite effect that you want to have happened,

454
00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:08,000
Speaker 1: which is something that I call negative brand equity. You

455
00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:11,000
Speaker 1: may be reaching people, but you know who you're rubbing

456
00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:13,919
Speaker 1: shoulders with on that page is making them less likely

457
00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:17,119
Speaker 1: to be interested in you. We've known that from traditional

458
00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:21,359
Speaker 1: media for years. Is environment actually matters, context matters where

459
00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:23,720
Speaker 1: they're receiving the message. I think all of us here,

460
00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:27,359
Speaker 1: the lay people out there saying what's going on? Someone

461
00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:29,639
Speaker 1: spying on me? They must be listening to me. I

462
00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:31,879
Speaker 1: think they're listening on my phone because I mentioned a

463
00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:34,679
Speaker 1: product and suddenly there it is. And are they thinking

464
00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:37,680
Speaker 1: those brands are creepy? If you ask people that, they're

465
00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:40,720
Speaker 1: gonna say yes. The companies that are doing voice enabled

466
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:45,159
Speaker 1: search and AI are purposefully putting some wobble in the

467
00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:49,800
Speaker 1: system because they found when it's too accurate and the

468
00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:52,960
Speaker 1: voice sounds like this, yes, Bob, it's going to rain

469
00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:56,080
Speaker 1: at one thirty today. Bring an umbrella? Would you like

470
00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:58,240
Speaker 1: it brought to you? Like when it gets that level

471
00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:02,240
Speaker 1: of accuracy that makes feel like you're dealing with an algorithm,

472
00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:04,840
Speaker 1: it freaks people out. Every study I've read about that,

473
00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:08,919
Speaker 1: it's like people get really creaked out when they're interfacing

474
00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:12,159
Speaker 1: with technology and the technology is too accurate. And I

475
00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:14,639
Speaker 1: think that the same holds true for advertising putting a

476
00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:16,720
Speaker 1: little bit of wobble in it. The nerdy term for

477
00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:19,439
Speaker 1: it is relaxing your deciles. So it's like expanding your

478
00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:22,000
Speaker 1: audience by dropping some of the attributes if you're targeting,

479
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:23,959
Speaker 1: makes it a little bit more human. And there are

480
00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:26,640
Speaker 1: some regulatory things that force you to do that. So

481
00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:32,639
Speaker 1: from the Incredibles, when everybody's super nobody, super syndrome, Yes, right,

482
00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:36,480
Speaker 1: So what happens in this world now that all of

483
00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:40,040
Speaker 1: us so called traditional media companies lie Heart included, now

484
00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:44,080
Speaker 1: have these data capabilities. Does that begin to level playing

485
00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:46,560
Speaker 1: field and do we break down silos? The thing I

486
00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:50,360
Speaker 1: find interesting about technology is that it's only as good

487
00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:52,560
Speaker 1: as the people that are using it in the hypotheses

488
00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:55,919
Speaker 1: that they have. The playing field will get leveled, but

489
00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:58,960
Speaker 1: I think it will still come down to whether it's

490
00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:01,520
Speaker 1: I heeart, whether it's on any community group whomever. It's

491
00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:04,080
Speaker 1: ultimately about the people that are at the helm. To

492
00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:05,760
Speaker 1: get back to Star Trek. It's like it's still had

493
00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:08,640
Speaker 1: a crew. You know. The Enterprise was a badass ship,

494
00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:11,520
Speaker 1: could do a lot of things, had photon torpedoes, but

495
00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:14,000
Speaker 1: it had a crew. It had a diverse and cool

496
00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:16,760
Speaker 1: crew that had hypotheses that were going and cruising around

497
00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:19,040
Speaker 1: space with no real mission other to be on a mission.

498
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:22,920
Speaker 1: But the crew is really important. Technology will only get

499
00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:26,000
Speaker 1: you so far. I want our people to have really

500
00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:29,600
Speaker 1: interesting hypotheses that they could either prove, disproved, test their

501
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:31,359
Speaker 1: way into being real or not. But I want them

502
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:34,159
Speaker 1: to be enabled. And I think the technology is a

503
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:36,240
Speaker 1: great enabler and we should think of it that way

504
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:39,679
Speaker 1: versus an automator. One of your major clients, PNG has

505
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:43,040
Speaker 1: really changed the whole dialogue about re embracing some of

506
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:46,399
Speaker 1: the traditional companies sectors like radio and outdoor. Talk a

507
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:49,600
Speaker 1: little bit about those new capabilities that have opened up

508
00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:53,640
Speaker 1: that world for companies that are sophisticated and as smartest

509
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:58,439
Speaker 1: PNG to begin to reevaluate the landscape differently. They know

510
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:01,840
Speaker 1: the pay out of some of the channels, and they

511
00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:04,600
Speaker 1: know that the consumers attentions there, and if they have

512
00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:07,800
Speaker 1: really great content and creative that there's an opportunity to

513
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:11,000
Speaker 1: have a dialogue, and that some of the digital channels

514
00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:14,159
Speaker 1: are still proving themselves out. The thing about working with

515
00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:17,480
Speaker 1: PNGNG that I always appreciated was their rigor on the

516
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:19,920
Speaker 1: test design and kind of match market testing and looking

517
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:22,719
Speaker 1: for the incrementality of new channels and making sure they

518
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:25,680
Speaker 1: were proven out before they made big bets. Their discipline

519
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:29,399
Speaker 1: to marketing and evaluating channels is something that I have

520
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:32,160
Speaker 1: a lot of respect for. Thinking about it from a

521
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:34,680
Speaker 1: cross client perspective, I think some of the best work

522
00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:37,800
Speaker 1: that I've frankly seen coming out of our agencies is

523
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:40,760
Speaker 1: coming in the outdoor space and coming in the audio spaces.

524
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:42,960
Speaker 1: Some of the stuff we did on PNG with Choppers,

525
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:46,040
Speaker 1: which we distributed and syndicated through our heart and remember

526
00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:48,399
Speaker 1: we did it with Gamblet that cost us relative to

527
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:51,680
Speaker 1: its effectiveness, a very efficient way of going to market.

528
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:54,199
Speaker 1: But I also thought really cool and creative. And the

529
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:56,359
Speaker 1: thing about trying to convince PNG to do something like

530
00:25:56,400 --> 00:26:00,240
Speaker 1: that is it doesn't really live within the syndicate. Did

531
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:03,080
Speaker 1: Systems of Record. We paid for most of that program

532
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:05,080
Speaker 1: just to prove it. And you guys have been big

533
00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:08,640
Speaker 1: on podcasts, absolutely well, number one commercial podcast on US

534
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:11,639
Speaker 1: in mprgo neck and Neck month a month. Then it's

535
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:14,119
Speaker 1: a new world. You've won a lot of awards you

536
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:16,720
Speaker 1: personally and the work of your agency, including a number

537
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:19,320
Speaker 1: of cam lions. You were ad Week Executive of the

538
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:22,439
Speaker 1: Year in two thousand seventeen. This heavy stuff. How do

539
00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:24,800
Speaker 1: you deal with the recognition this is as sort of

540
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:27,920
Speaker 1: personal as a manager, have that kind of recognition and

541
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:30,720
Speaker 1: keep it from affecting how you see yourself and your

542
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:34,200
Speaker 1: internal compass. I'm always like, hugely embarrassed about some of

543
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:37,720
Speaker 1: those things, Like I like winning awards for strategy, content, creativity.

544
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:40,960
Speaker 1: Personal stuff is weird. Unfortunately for those of you that

545
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:42,840
Speaker 1: don't know me they're listening to this, I'm a tuitor

546
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:46,200
Speaker 1: and twenty five pound bald die that's like six ft tall,

547
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:48,760
Speaker 1: so I kind of stick out. The hard thing for

548
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:51,280
Speaker 1: me is I really only have like two looks like

549
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 1: I have a good, badass Morpheus wearing all black look

550
00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:56,200
Speaker 1: that I can go with, or if I put a

551
00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 1: suit on, I look like something from the cast a

552
00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:01,040
Speaker 1: little or financy. So that's what's going through my mind

553
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:03,280
Speaker 1: most of the time is do I look ridiculous right now?

554
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:05,760
Speaker 1: Because the hard thing for me is self image a

555
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:09,040
Speaker 1: little bit. That's why I try to shy away from

556
00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:12,199
Speaker 1: ever being photographed or on magazine covers or anything like that. Well,

557
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:14,720
Speaker 1: that's why you're in audio perfect. We can hide talk

558
00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:16,680
Speaker 1: about creativity. You've been the Burning Man. I go to

559
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:19,000
Speaker 1: Burning Man A lot of folks we know. Do you

560
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:22,639
Speaker 1: know it's sort of haven for creatives? How do you

561
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:26,520
Speaker 1: think things like that, not just Burning Man specifically shape

562
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:30,080
Speaker 1: your outlook and your openness to ideas. Burning Man, I

563
00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:34,560
Speaker 1: always felt like, is like unrestricted, unfettered creativity at its best.

564
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:36,800
Speaker 1: My favorite areas like checking out all the cars. It's

565
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:39,760
Speaker 1: just amazing. Come to Mirage Garage next time you're there. Okay,

566
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:42,560
Speaker 1: Well do I met His name is Arturo. I met

567
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:45,359
Speaker 1: the guy that designed and sculpted the Wall Street Bowl,

568
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:48,639
Speaker 1: and I'm just struck up a conversation with him and

569
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:50,159
Speaker 1: and he's like, well, I made the bull that's down

570
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:53,040
Speaker 1: in Wall Street. I thought that was commissioned by the city.

571
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 1: I had no idea that that was guerilla street art.

572
00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:58,040
Speaker 1: As a kid of the seventies and the eighties, I

573
00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 1: associated with Wall Street and Michael Douglas and a giant

574
00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:02,919
Speaker 1: block side cell phone on the beach. What do you

575
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:05,720
Speaker 1: do in bud No idea that he did that during

576
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:08,880
Speaker 1: an economic downturn to try to make the people feel better,

577
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:12,080
Speaker 1: that the city can be revitalized and reinvigorated. And I

578
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:13,960
Speaker 1: also had no idea that was grilla street art that

579
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:17,320
Speaker 1: he just like one day. It just showed up marketing

580
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:19,920
Speaker 1: at its best, at its best. When I think about creativity,

581
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:22,200
Speaker 1: I just I think about him more than anyone else,

582
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:25,720
Speaker 1: because I'm like, what drove this man to decide to

583
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:28,560
Speaker 1: get up and sculpt an eight and a half foot bowl?

584
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:30,480
Speaker 1: We see it a burning band? Where did that idea

585
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:32,320
Speaker 1: come from? Come from? Who thought of that? And who

586
00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:35,480
Speaker 1: built it? Yeah? Music always important to you, and I

587
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:37,639
Speaker 1: know you see a lot of big shows. Do you

588
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:40,000
Speaker 1: ever played publicly? Oh? Yeah, I haven't in a while.

589
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:42,560
Speaker 1: In my fraternity a bunch of the guys had this band,

590
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 1: water Dog, and they merged with another band in Gainesville

591
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:49,880
Speaker 1: to form Sister Hazel. The drummer, my friend Anthony, got

592
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 1: kind of kicked out of the band or he was

593
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:54,640
Speaker 1: not part of the merger to create Sister Hazel, and

594
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 1: so we started a glam rock band called Satan's Panties.

595
00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:00,120
Speaker 1: Then I had another I don't know what it us

596
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 1: with these band names. I had another band called Digitalia

597
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 1: in Atlanta and we used to play all the time.

598
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:09,360
Speaker 1: I learned drug programming and I played guitar theraman and

599
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:12,040
Speaker 1: I programmed eats. It was like a trip hop band.

600
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:14,520
Speaker 1: We had a bass player, percussionists, and this guy that

601
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:18,240
Speaker 1: played a MIDI sacks and we're pretty good. We opened

602
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:20,719
Speaker 1: for Elton John one time, and we would get some

603
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,720
Speaker 1: cool gigs in Atlanta. We played at earth Link. We

604
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:25,840
Speaker 1: played a couple of thousand people one time, and I

605
00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:27,960
Speaker 1: was like, Oh, this is cool. Did you ever think

606
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 1: about music as your career path? Oh? Definitely. That was

607
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:32,840
Speaker 1: happening at the same time as the digital agency that

608
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:34,760
Speaker 1: we built the furniture for and stuff. What was that

609
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:37,720
Speaker 1: in your head? The calculus there, It was a fork

610
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:39,920
Speaker 1: in the road. I started burning the candle too much

611
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:41,520
Speaker 1: at both ends. You can't play a little three in

612
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:43,000
Speaker 1: the morning on a Tuesday, and then go to a

613
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 1: client where you can at the time, I could, you know,

614
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 1: go to a climate successful at eight am and the

615
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:50,040
Speaker 1: next morning, No, it wasn't the best, and so I

616
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:52,400
Speaker 1: had to make a decision. I love the music side

617
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:53,760
Speaker 1: of it, but at the same time, and we were

618
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:55,960
Speaker 1: getting some early wins and kind of was doing some

619
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:57,959
Speaker 1: cool stuff with my advertising career, and so I kind

620
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 1: of went in that direction. Let's go back for a minute.

621
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:03,720
Speaker 1: You've had this great success and data analytics the math

622
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 1: side of it. You had great direct marketing experience too.

623
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:09,960
Speaker 1: We were talking about data and how it matches the creative.

624
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 1: How does this work with brand building? So much of

625
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:15,840
Speaker 1: marketing out here today as people saying I'm gonna move

626
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:19,120
Speaker 1: five percent more or three percent. I'm gonna but I

627
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:20,840
Speaker 1: don't hear as much as I used to about and

628
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:22,360
Speaker 1: I got a great brand. It's gonna take care of

629
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 1: a lot of things. I'm a little bit terrified right

630
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:27,239
Speaker 1: now and marketing and advertising and what's happened to it

631
00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:29,920
Speaker 1: for I don't know. Ten years now, we've been thinking

632
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 1: about units of marketing, like I want three percent more

633
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:36,719
Speaker 1: units of marketing Wow, But what does that mean? And

634
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:41,760
Speaker 1: I feel like marketing and advertising increasingly is thought of

635
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:46,880
Speaker 1: as units of marketing, as if one all attention from

636
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:51,240
Speaker 1: a consumer is the same, and two all of the

637
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:55,200
Speaker 1: creativity and brand building is the same. And I just

638
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:58,120
Speaker 1: think that's lazy. It's such a lazy way of thinking

639
00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:01,200
Speaker 1: about marketing and advertising. When I started in the business,

640
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 1: there was a really hardcore, a spree to core with

641
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:07,080
Speaker 1: your clients. You're in it together, and we're gonna beat

642
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:09,280
Speaker 1: the ship out of the competition. And here's how we're

643
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:11,080
Speaker 1: gonna do it. And it doesn't matter if we're being

644
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:14,080
Speaker 1: outspent two to one. Here's what we're gonna do. And

645
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:17,480
Speaker 1: now increasingly it's units of marketing. I need you to

646
00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:20,440
Speaker 1: get me this many marketing units more cheaply. And what

647
00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:23,080
Speaker 1: I really get terrified about is when I'm looking and

648
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:25,440
Speaker 1: talking to a client about their business and you start

649
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:29,080
Speaker 1: getting into asking questions about forecasting. How are they forecasting

650
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:31,000
Speaker 1: for the success of their business and the delivery of

651
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 1: a plan. Oftentimes it comes down to a broken clock

652
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:40,520
Speaker 1: at econometric model that has flawed competitive data because it

653
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:44,520
Speaker 1: doesn't look at all channels, it takes into account nothing

654
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:47,040
Speaker 1: of a lot of the cool stuff that you can

655
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:49,760
Speaker 1: do with behavioral data on orchestration and who you're serving

656
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:55,080
Speaker 1: the content too. It misses entire categories and it indexes

657
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 1: way too heavy to television because the clocks it's built

658
00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:01,880
Speaker 1: for TV, and the clock can't measure anything that's happening

659
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:05,360
Speaker 1: in applications because the tracking technology doesn't work so well

660
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:08,560
Speaker 1: when it's stuck in an SDK in an app And

661
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:11,160
Speaker 1: that's where I'm like, man, you know, you gotta gotta

662
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 1: try something new. Push yourself a little bit away from

663
00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 1: the dock, get out there in the water and try

664
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:19,080
Speaker 1: to swim or try to float, because doing the same

665
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:21,040
Speaker 1: thing that you've done in the past is not gonna

666
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:24,160
Speaker 1: guarantee your outcomes in the future. I'm hoping for a

667
00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:26,880
Speaker 1: return to how it used to be, which is like,

668
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 1: we're in it together, We're gonna do something different. How

669
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:32,000
Speaker 1: are we going to break through in this market? What

670
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:33,960
Speaker 1: can we do to put ourselves out there so people

671
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 1: are interested in us and paying attention to us. I

672
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:38,320
Speaker 1: go back to my days at MTV or a o

673
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:40,600
Speaker 1: L where we created it as sort of the thing

674
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:44,040
Speaker 1: hard to measure, hard to say. What's the impact of

675
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:46,880
Speaker 1: having this big brand. But I know if I get

676
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:49,680
Speaker 1: the big brand, everybody's talking about the business flows from it.

677
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:53,760
Speaker 1: Do you think people are afraid of putting their money

678
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:57,080
Speaker 1: in the brand because it's harder to measure? Do you

679
00:32:57,160 --> 00:32:59,120
Speaker 1: see a move back to brand or you think there's

680
00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:02,360
Speaker 1: even more of them move away from Brandon more towards

681
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:04,440
Speaker 1: I need to sell two more units and can I

682
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:07,080
Speaker 1: find a channel which will give me those? Intuitively, I

683
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:10,240
Speaker 1: say yes. I think people are questioning some of the

684
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:12,840
Speaker 1: investments that were made and how they move their money

685
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:15,120
Speaker 1: around and other two scary words that I've heard of

686
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:18,600
Speaker 1: video neutrality. Come on, man, I'm like, that's not really

687
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:20,880
Speaker 1: a thing. Rubbing shoulders with Madmen is not the same

688
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:22,800
Speaker 1: as rubbing shoulders with poutypot. You're not gonna be able

689
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:25,000
Speaker 1: to convince me of that. How are you going to experiment?

690
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:28,360
Speaker 1: Some people are like, Okay, I'm nervous about putting all

691
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:32,280
Speaker 1: my marketing into the slicer and dicer of audience signals

692
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 1: and dynamically rendered creative that looks at media as units.

693
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:39,120
Speaker 1: A lot of the d c O that exists is

694
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:43,479
Speaker 1: meant to render dynamic experiences into a banner like who

695
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:45,760
Speaker 1: he is looking at banners anymore. I know that, like

696
00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 1: some clients want to maintain their banner presence because it's

697
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:51,040
Speaker 1: what the models telling them to do. But I can't

698
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:53,320
Speaker 1: tell you last time I even saw clicked on a banner.

699
00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:55,800
Speaker 1: It's not real content. You know, that was something that

700
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:58,160
Speaker 1: was cooling to imagine a banner has the same impact

701
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:00,840
Speaker 1: as a human being talking to you. Total talk about

702
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:04,720
Speaker 1: podcast they're very targetable. You talk about a big impact.

703
00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:07,760
Speaker 1: They're not listening for thirty seconds, They're listening for forty

704
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:10,799
Speaker 1: five minutes. They're deeply involved in the story and what's

705
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:13,920
Speaker 1: going on and are sucked down. Does that fit into

706
00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:16,360
Speaker 1: the math? Does it fit into the magic? Does it

707
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:18,640
Speaker 1: fit into brand building? Selling more goods? How do you

708
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:20,920
Speaker 1: think about podcast? I think the math side of it

709
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:23,440
Speaker 1: needs to focus on the level of engagement and attention

710
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:25,600
Speaker 1: that the audiences that are listening to podcasts have with

711
00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:28,439
Speaker 1: the content. We have metrics around reaching frequency, we don't

712
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:31,279
Speaker 1: have good metrics around attention and active listening. I think

713
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:35,680
Speaker 1: people are really mentally available when they're listening to a podcast,

714
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:37,480
Speaker 1: and I think we on the math side need to

715
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:41,080
Speaker 1: figure out how we value attention with the media channel.

716
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:44,319
Speaker 1: Is it passive or active, and podcast to me are

717
00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:47,400
Speaker 1: a very active opportunity. And I think it also requires

718
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:49,600
Speaker 1: a lot of magic to figure out how you don't

719
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:52,719
Speaker 1: have something that bastardizes the content that it's going to

720
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:56,600
Speaker 1: land in. It's respectful of where it's appearing and how

721
00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:59,319
Speaker 1: it works. From an adjacent perspective, let me ask about

722
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:02,720
Speaker 1: voice yep, big thing on the rising. Where is it now?

723
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:05,480
Speaker 1: Where is it going? How will people use it? It's

724
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:08,399
Speaker 1: fascinating to me looking at natural language processing and how

725
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:12,399
Speaker 1: people type and search for something versus how they linguistically

726
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:15,640
Speaker 1: express themselves very different. It's nascent now, and I think

727
00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:17,440
Speaker 1: that a lot of the users don't necessarily know what

728
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:20,480
Speaker 1: database the actual device is tied to, and so on

729
00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:22,839
Speaker 1: the agency side, it's a really nascent area. It's kind

730
00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:24,279
Speaker 1: of like s c O back in the day when

731
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 1: you're trying to figure out how do you surface content.

732
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:29,040
Speaker 1: When I think about voice enabled search, though, it gets

733
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:30,560
Speaker 1: me to a place where I'm thinking about, Okay, what

734
00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:34,000
Speaker 1: are gonna be the boundaries in the future around ethical persuasion?

735
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:38,759
Speaker 1: Because you can already paid to influence the algorithm. That's

736
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:40,400
Speaker 1: the crazy thing for me, right It's like, what are

737
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:44,040
Speaker 1: gonna be the boundaries of manipulating algorithms for paid purposes

738
00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:48,279
Speaker 1: when somebody is directly talking to the technology and anthropomorphizing

739
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:50,960
Speaker 1: the smart speaker within their home. I feel like right

740
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:53,760
Speaker 1: now we're kind of moving from mass to mass precision

741
00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:57,680
Speaker 1: into personal persuasion when it's getting increasingly one to one.

742
00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:01,759
Speaker 1: But that word personal is import because the technology is

743
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:04,120
Speaker 1: becoming more human in the way it talks to people.

744
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:05,840
Speaker 1: But the thing that I wonder is going to be

745
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:08,640
Speaker 1: next This is kind of weird to talk about knowing

746
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:11,200
Speaker 1: that we're broadcasting into people's brains right now, so we're

747
00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:13,360
Speaker 1: doing it right, doing it right right now. It's like

748
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:16,520
Speaker 1: theater of the mind. So what happens when the device

749
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:19,719
Speaker 1: that's moved from the den to the family room to

750
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:23,200
Speaker 1: our pockets is now on our bodies. What are going

751
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:27,440
Speaker 1: to be the boundaries of ethical persuasion when you're potentially

752
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:30,520
Speaker 1: plugged into somebody's subconscious There's this crazy book that are

753
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:32,879
Speaker 1: at a Celerando. I'm not going to spoil the story,

754
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:34,640
Speaker 1: but the guy right in the beginning of the book

755
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:40,680
Speaker 1: has uploaded his consciousness into AI and gets advice from

756
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:44,480
Speaker 1: differently tuned parts of his personality, almost like having an

757
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:46,239
Speaker 1: angel and a devil on your shoulder kind of it

758
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:50,960
Speaker 1: sounds like schizophrenia to me. Well, yeah, technologically induced schizophrenia.

759
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:54,360
Speaker 1: Let's spend the minute on culture. You've got a big organization,

760
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:58,480
Speaker 1: very important organization, has a long and rich history and

761
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:01,520
Speaker 1: advertising all through on the um. What role do you

762
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:05,600
Speaker 1: see culture playing and how are you using culture to

763
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:08,560
Speaker 1: achieve your goals there? You know, sending up my own

764
00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:11,360
Speaker 1: shops and then working in privately held ones versus publicly

765
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:13,360
Speaker 1: held ones. You have to pay a lot of attention

766
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:15,759
Speaker 1: to culture and figure out ways to do it when

767
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:17,560
Speaker 1: I have my own small agency. You know, you start

768
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:20,760
Speaker 1: out as pirates and you're like, okay, we're tech enabled pirates,

769
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:22,360
Speaker 1: but we're pirates and we're here to take on the

770
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:24,680
Speaker 1: ocean and you know, scavenge what we can and shoot

771
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:27,000
Speaker 1: people with cannons. And then you kind of move into

772
00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:29,319
Speaker 1: a phase when you're like a privateer and you're kind

773
00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:31,440
Speaker 1: of like a pirate, but you're working with the Navy

774
00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:34,319
Speaker 1: and it's kind of cool. And then you you run

775
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:36,560
Speaker 1: the risk of going full Navy. You don't want to

776
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:38,719
Speaker 1: be full Navy, right, and so I try to keep

777
00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:42,399
Speaker 1: a spirit of privateers where it's like, yeah, you're still

778
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:43,880
Speaker 1: kind of a pirate, but you're kind of like the

779
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:47,160
Speaker 1: Navy if the data driven world has taken us to

780
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 1: a place where of what we do looks the same.

781
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:54,600
Speaker 1: I want to be intellectually curious and moving in a

782
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:57,760
Speaker 1: direction that they believe in that they think is around

783
00:37:57,760 --> 00:37:59,440
Speaker 1: the corner that they want to get ready for in

784
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:01,319
Speaker 1: capitalize us on. So it's like, Okay, I'll give you

785
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:03,759
Speaker 1: the foundation to do it, but now come up with

786
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 1: what's your thing, which then leads you into what is

787
00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:10,600
Speaker 1: your agency's funk factor. I like agencies to have a

788
00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:12,680
Speaker 1: little bit of funk funk in their trunk, if you will.

789
00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:14,760
Speaker 1: I want them to make sure that they have crazy

790
00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:16,680
Speaker 1: things that they do that don't make sense to the

791
00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:19,160
Speaker 1: outside world that if you're outside looking in, you're like,

792
00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:21,680
Speaker 1: would you know, why are you having a Halloween party

793
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:24,120
Speaker 1: on the floor in April? This makes no sense? But

794
00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:27,880
Speaker 1: yet you are. You're in a people business. How do

795
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:30,640
Speaker 1: you put the gather and recruit your teams. I have

796
00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:35,040
Speaker 1: a pretty clear formula talent plus platform plus product people's growth,

797
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:39,400
Speaker 1: and I put talent first in terms of recruiting and

798
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:41,920
Speaker 1: building out teams. I try to meet with people and

799
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:43,680
Speaker 1: make a connection and see if I think they would

800
00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:46,840
Speaker 1: be a good fit. And as simple as that sounds,

801
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:49,279
Speaker 1: I think it's important to try to spend some time

802
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:52,600
Speaker 1: with people and really understand them, understand where they came from,

803
00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:56,200
Speaker 1: what they're interested in. Romntor in the business page, Thompson

804
00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:58,600
Speaker 1: a terrific guy. Yeah, terrific guy, heat you know, would

805
00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:01,480
Speaker 1: say so. I thought for a long time that he

806
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:03,520
Speaker 1: was calling me fat, But essentially it was from a

807
00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:06,080
Speaker 1: radio personality called Scott So would be like Scotts So,

808
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:10,640
Speaker 1: our talent, our old business rides up and down in

809
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:13,880
Speaker 1: that elevator every day, and you better keep that in

810
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:19,239
Speaker 1: mind when you're talking to people. And that stuck, you know.

811
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:22,200
Speaker 1: I was like, ma'am, that is the crispmas articulation of

812
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:24,840
Speaker 1: agency life. And it's why I always believe that the

813
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:26,640
Speaker 1: man is going to win over the machine and the

814
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:29,719
Speaker 1: marketing business, because it's about the talent every day that

815
00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:33,080
Speaker 1: comes up and down the elevator and how we invest

816
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:35,239
Speaker 1: and make the right bets on how to empower them.

817
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:39,960
Speaker 1: So what advice would you today give to your sixteen

818
00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:44,320
Speaker 1: year old self? Probably shave your head earlier. That's actually true.

819
00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:46,560
Speaker 1: I would probably say that to be a little bit

820
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:48,759
Speaker 1: more confident. Definitely to my six new year old stuff

821
00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:52,239
Speaker 1: in Florida, I would have said, don't be so intimidated

822
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:55,040
Speaker 1: about New York. Don't think that where you are now

823
00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:58,239
Speaker 1: that you don't have the raw materials to make it

824
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:00,120
Speaker 1: on the big stage. My mom and still the me

825
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:02,239
Speaker 1: a belief that I can do whatever I put my

826
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:04,319
Speaker 1: mind to. But it took a while for that to

827
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:07,000
Speaker 1: really kick in and for me to be fearless about

828
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:09,160
Speaker 1: that and just to go for it. We always end

829
00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:12,799
Speaker 1: our episodes with shoutouts on math and magic, the analytical

830
00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:15,480
Speaker 1: and the creative. If you think about it, can you

831
00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:18,920
Speaker 1: name a person who's the greatest math marketer? Yeah? I

832
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:20,880
Speaker 1: mean I got a bunch of them. I learned everything

833
00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:23,120
Speaker 1: I learned in the Math and cr Oom world from

834
00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:26,520
Speaker 1: Lauren Grossman, who I worked for it Rap, Slavi sa Marziga,

835
00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:30,040
Speaker 1: super Smart, Adam Gitlind, the whole Anelect crew. All those

836
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:32,120
Speaker 1: guys are way smarter than I do. And I give

837
00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:34,200
Speaker 1: a lot of credit for instilling that. So let's go

838
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:37,480
Speaker 1: the magician. Who's that great creative marketer? Who do you

839
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:39,719
Speaker 1: think is the great magician? Early in my career. It's

840
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:42,239
Speaker 1: no longer with us, but Martin McDonald is Scottish. I

841
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:44,480
Speaker 1: called him the party furnace. He was the first creative

842
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:48,280
Speaker 1: director that I worked with, and his personality was so huge.

843
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:51,560
Speaker 1: I was in awe of what he could do. He

844
00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:53,640
Speaker 1: had a big impact on me. And then also Luke

845
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:56,360
Speaker 1: Sullivan moved from the Martin Agency down to West Wayne.

846
00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:59,799
Speaker 1: I stole his presentation style. He could suck all the

847
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:02,200
Speaker 1: error out of a room. And then a lot of

848
00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:04,200
Speaker 1: my planning chops came early on in my career from

849
00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:07,680
Speaker 1: a guy named Andrew Jones. He worked for John Steele previously,

850
00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:10,440
Speaker 1: and he taught me a lot about brand planning and

851
00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:13,480
Speaker 1: how to moderate focus groups and draw qualitative insights and

852
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:16,160
Speaker 1: kind of land something to where a creative team would

853
00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:19,800
Speaker 1: be interested in using it. Scott Hagadorn, truly you embody,

854
00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:23,160
Speaker 1: math and magic and thanks for being here. Thanks my pleasure.

855
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:26,239
Speaker 1: Here's a few things I picked up from my chat

856
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:29,800
Speaker 1: with Scott one. Scott thinks one of the scariest ideas

857
00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:31,919
Speaker 1: to take hold of advertising in the past five years

858
00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:35,239
Speaker 1: is video neutrality. As he puts it, rubbing shoulders with

859
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:38,360
Speaker 1: Madman isn't the same as rubbing shoulders with duty pie

860
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:41,360
Speaker 1: to Scott likes his companies to have a funk fact,

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00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:45,080
Speaker 1: whether that's pep eating contest or throwing Halloween parties in April.

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00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:48,479
Speaker 1: Having a funky company culture encourage his employees to pitch

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00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:51,360
Speaker 1: bolder ideas. By the way, it might be why Scott's

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00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:55,280
Speaker 1: teams have won so many can Lions three. It sounds obvious,

865
00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:58,040
Speaker 1: but it's in Scott's bones to look for new markets

866
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:00,560
Speaker 1: and then angle. You see it in his work. But

867
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:03,440
Speaker 1: even as a kid, he started a snake wrangling service

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00:42:03,719 --> 00:42:06,720
Speaker 1: because everyone else had oversaturated the long boy in business.

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00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:19,200
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. I'm Bob Pittman. That's it for today's episode.

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00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:21,600
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for listening to Math and Magic, a

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00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:24,359
Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. This show is hosted by

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00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:27,480
Speaker 1: Bob Pittman. Special thanks to Sue Schillinger for booking and

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00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:30,640
Speaker 1: wrangling our wonderful talent, which is no small feat. Nikki

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00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:34,160
Speaker 1: Etre for pulling research bill plaques, and Michael Asar for

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00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:37,240
Speaker 1: their recording help, our editor, Ryan Murdoch, and of course

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00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:41,200
Speaker 1: Gail Raoul, Eric Angel, Noel Mango and everyone who helped

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00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:43,879
Speaker 1: bring this show to your ears. Until next time,