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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production

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Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Holly

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Speaker 1: Frye and I'm Tracy V. Wilson. Back in June of

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty, doctor Rachel Lance was on the show to

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Speaker 1: talk about her book In the Waves, detailing the HL

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Speaker 1: Hunley disaster, and today she is back to Grace's again,

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Speaker 1: this time talking about her new book, Chamber Divers. Chamber

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Speaker 1: Divers is about World War Two and the team of

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Speaker 1: British geneticists that was tasked with solving the problem of

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Speaker 1: how to get military personnel to survive underwater. It is

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Speaker 1: a roller coaster of a story that was classified for

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Speaker 1: a very long time, so it was an absolute delight

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Speaker 1: for me to pepper her with questions about this team

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Speaker 1: of very unique and daring scientists and how their work

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Speaker 1: has informed entire fields of science. So here is that conversation,

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Speaker 1: all right. Today, I am lucky enough to be joined

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Speaker 1: by doctor Rachel Lance, who has been on the show before.

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Speaker 1: But last time Tracy got to poured you all to herself,

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Speaker 1: and now I get my chance.

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Speaker 2: We've made our purple hair connection.

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Speaker 1: We have so welcome.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for having me back.

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Speaker 1: Oh, I'm so.

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Speaker 2: Glad because you have a new and.

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Speaker 1: Quite impressive book out, Chamber Divers, which is we'll get

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Speaker 1: into it, but some of this is a very harrowing

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Speaker 1: read in the best way. But the first thing I

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Speaker 1: want to talk to you about is that, even more

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Speaker 1: than your first book, which was In the Waves, this

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Speaker 1: book seems to me knowing you a bit, to be

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Speaker 1: so deeply in your wheelhouse and sort of where you

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Speaker 1: might have been headed before you started researching the sinking

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Speaker 1: of the Hunley in the Civil War and what informed

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Speaker 1: that first book. Does this feel like the inevitable book

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Speaker 1: that you were going to eventually write.

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Speaker 2: It feels like another story that was weirdly just waiting

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Speaker 2: for me. That was how I felt with the Hunley.

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Speaker 2: I was like, who who arranged this? This feels like

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Speaker 2: a conspiracy? And I feel like this one was true too.

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Speaker 2: And what I decided is that that's what I think

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Speaker 2: makes engaging books is when people write what they know,

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Speaker 2: and they write the stories that they're the best person

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Speaker 2: to tell. And so this book came out of a

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Speaker 2: paper that I read during the course of my Honley research,

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Speaker 2: and it was this group of researchers who were doing

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Speaker 2: some stuff with carbon dioxide, And the date bothered me.

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Speaker 2: It was nineteen forty one. That it was published in

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Speaker 2: nineteen forty one, and they were in England. So in research,

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Speaker 2: papers take a long time to come out, so it

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Speaker 2: usually means that you've done the work the year before,

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Speaker 2: and that means that they were doing research on carbon

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Speaker 2: dioxide during the Blitz in nineteen forty And I could

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Speaker 2: not figure out white people who were literally being bonded

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Speaker 2: in their homes would care about carbon dioxide. It just

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Speaker 2: it seemed really irrelevant at that time period. So I

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Speaker 2: just couldn't stop thinking about it, and I kept digging

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Speaker 2: and digging, and so this was the story that I

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Speaker 2: eventually uncovered, and it was too good not to write.

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Speaker 2: It was too good.

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Speaker 1: The other thing that I want to talk to you

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Speaker 1: about a little bit is your research and writing process,

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Speaker 1: but specifically because this book, your work on it straddled

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Speaker 1: the pandemic. Some of it happened before we knew that

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Speaker 1: the world was going to fall apart for a little while,

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Speaker 1: and some of it happened after. And there are some

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Speaker 1: pretty interesting moments in the text where you include comparisons

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Speaker 1: of things like medical issues and people's behavior during World

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Speaker 1: War Two to what we have just experienced with COVID. Right,

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Speaker 1: So aside from the obvious impediments to research that came

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Speaker 1: up while we all had to sit in our homes,

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Speaker 1: how much did the Code nineteen pandemic informed the way

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Speaker 1: that you processed the information that you were researching as

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Speaker 1: you were prepping and writing Chamber divers.

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Speaker 2: It was really important to me personally because I was

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Speaker 2: a high risk person. I'm a high risk medical person,

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Speaker 2: and I had made the decision to have a really

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Speaker 2: critical knee surgery in January twenty twenty. My logic was, Okay,

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Speaker 2: I've got a head to London. I've got to do

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Speaker 2: all this research, but London is a walking city. I'll

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Speaker 2: get this knee surgery done first and then I'll be

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Speaker 2: more comfortable walking. Because that didn't work out great for me,

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Speaker 2: so I was trying to write whatever other bits and

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Speaker 2: pieces I could do. It meant that I had to

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Speaker 2: reconfigure the organization in timeline of how I wrote the

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Speaker 2: whole book, and it also meant that since someone who

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Speaker 2: is not only high risk but works at a hospital

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Speaker 2: in restratory physiology research, I was going through my personal

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Speaker 2: experiences as well. So I'm a PhD. I don't treat

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Speaker 2: medical patients. All of research was shut down, but this

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Speaker 2: is still my crew at work, right, Like, these are

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Speaker 2: still my people there, and this is a respiratory disease

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Speaker 2: and so that and at the time, I was married

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Speaker 2: to a firefighter who was doing a lot of CPR

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Speaker 2: on people with respiratory failure and coming home at the

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Speaker 2: end of that, and so that was a really big

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Speaker 2: part of my life for at least the first full year,

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Speaker 2: for sure longer than that reality. And one of the

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Speaker 2: chapters that I wrote during this because I could do

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Speaker 2: a lot of the research using digitized sources, was the

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Speaker 2: BLOODZ chapter. That chapter, which I believe is chapter five.

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Speaker 2: It might have gotten renumbered, but it kind of became

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Speaker 2: a form of therapy for me as I was writing it.

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Speaker 2: There was a lot that got caught out of there

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Speaker 2: because I would read all these diaries where people were

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Speaker 2: acting exactly like they were in the pandemic, and I

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Speaker 2: was just sitting there like, oh my god, there's nothing

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Speaker 2: we could do. There's nothing we could do to inform

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Speaker 2: people and like educate them properly in a way that

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Speaker 2: everyone is feeling comfortable with the actions we need to

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Speaker 2: take together, and it really hammered home for me in

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Speaker 2: kind of a depressing way how much we're restricted by

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Speaker 2: our nature and the weans where our brains process information.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So, like I said, a lot of that ended up

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Speaker 2: getting cut out, but writing it and at least putting

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Speaker 2: it down was a big way that I was processing

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Speaker 2: what was happening in our world at the time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I was so struck by the segments in that

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Speaker 1: chapter where you're talking about how people living outside of

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Speaker 1: London are sort of like la la la la la.

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Speaker 1: It feels very distant to them, right that their countrymen

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Speaker 1: are literally living through hell and the people leaving London

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Speaker 1: for respite are like almost in a different flavor of

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Speaker 1: like cultural shell shock because no one understands where they're

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Speaker 1: at mentally. That to me was super fascinating.

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Speaker 2: That I absolutely that's exactly why I put that in there.

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Speaker 2: I'm glad you picked up on that, because that was

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Speaker 2: the experience that I was having, even with some family members,

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Speaker 2: where they were living a life that felt completely disconnected

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Speaker 2: from what was happening, and that made it easier for

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Speaker 2: them to fail to process the severity of what the

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Speaker 2: rest of us were going through so wild. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 2: really interesting how many parallels there were. I went through

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Speaker 2: a lot of diaries for that chapter, a lot of

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Speaker 2: Blitz diaries.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So this is also an interesting tale because it

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Speaker 1: involves a lot of information that was classified for a

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Speaker 1: very long time. Yes, so you mentioned that it came

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Speaker 1: to your attention because you read a paper, But how

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Speaker 1: did you actually get to the point where you were

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Speaker 1: getting the real information you needed to put this story together? Like,

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Speaker 1: at what point were you like, is this hidden information?

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Speaker 1: Can I have this?

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Speaker 2: That's you kind of just have to play stupid with

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Speaker 2: the government. That's the best way you kinda have to No,

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Speaker 2: it's exactly like you said, you kinda just have to

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Speaker 2: be like can I have it? If they'll give it

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Speaker 2: to you, they'll give it to you. So classified documents,

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Speaker 2: you're either going to get everything you want with no fight,

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Speaker 2: or there is no negotiation and you will never see it.

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Speaker 2: Those are the two extremes. So with these sense that

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Speaker 2: relates to World War Two, what these researchers were working

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Speaker 2: on ultimately ended up being the landings at D Day.

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Speaker 2: The landings at D Day were highly classified for a

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Speaker 2: really long time, even after they were successful, because the

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Speaker 2: techniques that were developed were so new. So what had

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Speaker 2: to happen in order for these documents to be declassified

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Speaker 2: is the governments involved. The governments of all the Allied

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Speaker 2: countries had to go through and be like, yes, we

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Speaker 2: the public knowledge. This is public knowledge. It's public knowledge

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Speaker 2: that we do this. So it not only had to

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Speaker 2: be no longer relevant to the landings themselves, but it

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Speaker 2: had to be that the techniques that had been created

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Speaker 2: specifically for D Day were now considered public information. Gotcha,

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Speaker 2: a lot of those had not been declassified by the

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Speaker 2: British until the late nineteen seventies. In America, some women

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Speaker 2: were classified until the early two thousands, and then there

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Speaker 2: were others still that I had to request the release for,

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Speaker 2: and I had to when I requested them, I sort

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Speaker 2: of made the argument of like, everyone knows you're doing

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Speaker 2: this anyway, But also there's a guessing game involved as

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Speaker 2: well because it's classified, so you can't justify why you

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Speaker 2: need the thing because you can't read the thing in

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Speaker 2: order to know that it says what you needed to say,

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Speaker 2: so you kind of you kind of have to play

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Speaker 2: this game where you're like, this is just titled report

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Speaker 2: nineteen forty three. Might it contain the solution to all

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Speaker 2: of my problems? I don't know what I'm going to

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Speaker 2: try and rate it, and so a lot of this

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Speaker 2: is a brute force method. There's very much this brute

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Speaker 2: force methodology of setting aside hours, days, preferably a couple

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Speaker 2: of weeks for each archive, and then just committing yourself

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Speaker 2: to the fact that you live there for a little

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Speaker 2: while and may not may not. Yeah, Like, I get

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Speaker 2: so invested in these documents when I'm finally able to

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Speaker 2: access them because they're all physical, they're not these are

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Speaker 2: not digitized, that I'm like actively annoyed by my need

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Speaker 2: to use the restrooms, just like damn it, lad or

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Speaker 2: not again. So yeah, and then you got to just

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Speaker 2: power through. That's what that process looks like.

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Speaker 1: So what is the hit rate? Like how what percentage

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Speaker 1: of stuff are you? Like this actually is not relevant

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Speaker 1: to my deal at all, versus the amount where you're like, Eureka,

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Speaker 1: I've got something really cool.

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Speaker 2: I do have an archives dance. It's very quiet, and

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Speaker 2: so I don't get kicked out that I do it.

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Speaker 2: The hit rate is pretty low. But what's interesting is

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Speaker 2: that the best jewels are the ones you don't expect

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Speaker 2: to find. The best jewels are the ones where you

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Speaker 2: go in and you're saying, Okay, I don't know exactly

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Speaker 2: what this story is. And that's very much how Chamber

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Speaker 2: Divers came together. It started with that on paper, and

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Speaker 2: I was like, I don't know what this story is,

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Speaker 2: but something was going on, and so I created. What

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Speaker 2: I do is I create a master timeline document. So

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Speaker 2: by the end of writing this book, my master timeline

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Speaker 2: document was over eighty pages long. And as I'm doing that,

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Speaker 2: I kind of just fill in the key events as

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Speaker 2: I'm finding them. Because when you're reading these papers, you're

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Speaker 2: also not necessarily getting them in chronological order, right. You

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Speaker 2: don't know what you're going to find when you ask

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Speaker 2: for it. So I create this document and I keep

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Speaker 2: citations to where I found each fact and what data

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Speaker 2: occurred on and by the end, I've got the story.

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Speaker 2: And so the hit rate seems like it's really low,

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Speaker 2: but there's a high rate of finding things that are

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Speaker 2: really cool that you don't expect, like the admission that

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Speaker 2: the divers used to just pee in their suits because

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Speaker 2: they found them annoying to take off. I was like yeah.

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Speaker 2: I was like, yeah, this is a book, so.

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Speaker 1: This is so fascinating to me. But I want to

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Speaker 1: get to the actual meat of the book and what

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Speaker 1: it contains. Because you open with a very detailed description

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Speaker 1: of what we now know today as Operation Jubilee, which

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Speaker 1: is the landing at Diepp that took place in nineteen

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Speaker 1: forty two. Will you talk a little bit about why

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Speaker 1: that event is so important to setting up the story

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Speaker 1: of the Chamber Divers.

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Speaker 2: I wanted to start with that event because I think

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Speaker 2: we tend to focus on D Day without necessarily looking

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Speaker 2: at the planning that went into it. We talk a

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Speaker 2: lot about Omaha Beach, what went wrong on Omaha Beach,

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Speaker 2: and we do a good job as a society of

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Speaker 2: honoring those who gave up their lives. What I really

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Speaker 2: wanted to do with this book was tell the story

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Speaker 2: of what went right and how lives were saved, and

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Speaker 2: so the information to do that requires first setting up

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Speaker 2: what happens if there isn't planning, What happens if there

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Speaker 2: isn't beach scouting, What happens if we don't know how

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Speaker 2: to send divers, which is what the Chamber Divers were

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Speaker 2: eventually working on. So I wanted to start with DP

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Speaker 2: in nineteen forty two because that was an example of

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Speaker 2: a kind of comparable beach landing to Normandy, and it

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Speaker 2: was one where they didn't have these scouting methods in advance.

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Speaker 2: They didn't have these tools like the mini subs and

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Speaker 2: the rebreathers that these experimentalists were working on, and it

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Speaker 2: was an absolute bloodbath. On Blue Beach alone, which is

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Speaker 2: one of the beaches. The casualty rates were at ninety

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Speaker 2: seven percent, so basically no one made it off that beach,

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Speaker 2: and that was a direct result of the lack of

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Speaker 2: advanced information. So I wanted to use that. The book

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Speaker 2: starts with DAP and it ends with dday, and the

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Speaker 2: goal there was to kind of bracket this lack of

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Speaker 2: planning and lack of detailed scouting information versus what can

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Speaker 2: happen when you have that, when you've done your scientific

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Speaker 2: background research.

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Speaker 1: Then the book jumps back in time a little bit

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Speaker 1: because you start to introduce your cast of characters that

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Speaker 1: emerged throughout the early chapters, which is like, I really

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Speaker 1: want this to be made into a movie just so

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Speaker 1: that I can see the Ocean's eleven style accumulation of

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Speaker 1: brains and really eccentric characters, et cetera. And I know

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Speaker 1: that you have also said in interviews and even on

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Speaker 1: our show when we had you on before that when

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Speaker 1: people talk about any kind of scientific or research work,

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Speaker 1: there is always a team, and this team was really extraordinary.

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Speaker 1: Will you talk a little bit about some of the

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Speaker 1: members of this incredible pros and cons great team of people.

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Speaker 2: Yes, pros and cons. That's a good way to put it.

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Speaker 2: I think the way you're referring to is the fact

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Speaker 2: that I just tried to be really honest about everyone.

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Speaker 2: We're entering a new age of history where we're no

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Speaker 2: longer just looking at people as like bronze figures up

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Speaker 2: on weird horse statues. We're trying to like talk about

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Speaker 2: people as more complete human beings. And none of us

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Speaker 2: are perfect, ourselves ourselves included, but like so I wanted

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Speaker 2: to present these characters as like complete and well rounded,

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Speaker 2: including their flaws.

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Speaker 1: People.

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Speaker 2: So, one of my favorite people in the book is

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Speaker 2: this woman, doctor Helen Spurway, and she was this known

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Speaker 2: for being socially awkward PhD geneticist who really loved nuts

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Speaker 2: and salamanders, and so she she shows up to class

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Speaker 2: on the first day at University College London, and she

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Speaker 2: just like casually announces to everyone that she's going to

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Speaker 2: marry the professor, who, by the way, is already married.

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Speaker 2: So this is a daring. This is not the way

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Speaker 2: to make friends. But the room read the room palette exactly.

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Speaker 2: She turns out to be like a really good scientist.

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Speaker 2: This woman can do anything with statistics and math. And

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Speaker 2: she's also like so invested in using statistics and math

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Speaker 2: attracting genetics that she'll just like go up to random

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Speaker 2: people's houses if they have a pawn in their backyard

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Speaker 2: and knock on their door and be like, Hi, my

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Speaker 2: names Helen. Can I look in your pond for salamanders?

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Speaker 2: And like this is how she got her data. She

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Speaker 2: was she was tracking the characteristics of salamander's and newts

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Speaker 2: across her area of England. And this is her academic

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Speaker 2: papers because that is actually how genetics was studied at

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Speaker 2: the time. So this is a group of people who,

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Speaker 2: because of their field, are inherently used to bucking a

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Speaker 2: little bit of authority. They're used to being considered a

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Speaker 2: little bit odd. And I use that word lovingly because

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Speaker 2: I myself as a minorly odd scientist. So and then

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Speaker 2: you also have a lot of them who came over

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Speaker 2: from Germany. Ye the lad leader JBS how Dane. He

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Speaker 2: is an ancestrally wealthy, privileged white man, but because he

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Speaker 2: went through a lot of extreme bullying when he was younger,

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Speaker 2: he always considers himself kind of an underdog, and he

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Speaker 2: always fights for other underdogs, and he he has this

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Speaker 2: incredible temper that he becomes infamous for. But he's also

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Speaker 2: just sitting there like, why is racism a thing? This

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Speaker 2: doesn't make any sense. It's just genetic variation and skin pigment.

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Speaker 2: So like, he's got this mixture of being incredibly egalitarian

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Speaker 2: that I think is to his credit. And so when

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Speaker 2: refugee start coming out of Germany, he starts saying like,

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Speaker 2: oh my gosh, I'm gonna fund as many as possible.

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Speaker 2: This is dumb Judaism is not a genetic flaw. This

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Speaker 2: doesn't make scientific sense. So he starts trying to fund them,

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Speaker 2: and that becomes a huge component of his lab. One

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Speaker 2: of the other people that I really loved was Ursula Philip.

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Speaker 2: I related to her because one of the first things

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Speaker 2: that her daughter told me when I interviewed her, is

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Speaker 2: that she STI always spilled food on herself and I

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Speaker 2: was like, me too.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, me too, I see you girl.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, she was also spectacular geneticist, ends up being

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Speaker 2: a key part of this research, puts herself in these experiments,

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Speaker 2: puts herself at incredible risk for this country where she's

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Speaker 2: a refugee.

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Speaker 1: I love it. Listen later on maybe offline, we can

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Speaker 1: talk about how Martin Case is my new history crush.

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Speaker 1: But that's a different matter.

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Speaker 2: Ah, you'll have to fight me for him.

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Speaker 1: I mean, he's so my flavor. He's a little bit wacky,

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Speaker 1: devil may care, cute as pie, super smart, come on

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Speaker 1: the dream.

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Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. I interviewed his niece, and the first

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Speaker 2: time I interviewed his niece on the zoom because England

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Speaker 2: is six hours ahead. She just like chimes in and

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Speaker 2: then raises up her cocktail. I was like, oh.

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Speaker 1: God, it's.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, oh yeah.

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Speaker 1: Because there's a lot of drinking in this book as well.

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Speaker 1: But I'm glad that you mentioned the sort of egalitarian

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Speaker 1: approach to bringing on team members, particularly people that had fled,

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Speaker 1: because you mentioned in the book that several of these

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Speaker 1: scientists were people that were eventually going to be targeted

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Speaker 1: if they weren't already when they left, you know. And

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Speaker 1: this is of course when the eugenics movement has its

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Speaker 1: own balloon of support.

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Speaker 2: Dark festivities.

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Speaker 1: Right. There's also a great moment where you're talking about

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Speaker 1: Ursula and sort of the legend of her fleeing Germany

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Speaker 1: versus the reality not really quite so dramatic. So one,

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Speaker 1: I would love for you to talk about that correction

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Speaker 1: in particular because it's so charming to me. And two,

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Speaker 1: I also like would love to hear more about kind

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Speaker 1: of the outsider's status, even in Britain where that's theoretically

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Speaker 1: not playing out, but it is impacting how they're accepted

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Speaker 1: and how they're perceived.

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Speaker 2: Oh gosh, yeah again, Ursula, I just want to be

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Speaker 2: her friend. There's very there. Before this book, there is

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Speaker 2: very little note about her. She wasn't given credit for

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Speaker 2: a lot of her achievements. A lot of what she

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Speaker 2: had achieved in Germany before she fled was then destroyed

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Speaker 2: and tried to cover by the Nazis because they didn't

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Speaker 2: like that a woman did it. Not great inequality those Nazis,

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Speaker 2: And so one of the stories about her that has

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Speaker 2: been repeated in secondary tertiary sources, is that she graduated

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Speaker 2: and defended her PhD and then had to flee like imediately,

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Speaker 2: as in, she basically defended her PhD on the run

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Speaker 2: and then had to flee, and she didn't get a

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Speaker 2: chance to get her physical doctorate paper, which, of course

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Speaker 2: in the nineteen thirties is a lot more important because

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Speaker 2: there's no digital verification of degrees.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: So I tried to track this. I tried to track

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Speaker 2: this back to its original source, and I couldn't find it.

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Speaker 2: So when I was talking to her daughter, I kind

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Speaker 2: of bring this out and her daughter just starts laughing.

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Speaker 2: She goes, that wasn't true. I was like, what really happened?

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Speaker 2: She goes, she forgot it again, girl, I see you.

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Speaker 2: This is what I relate to you so hard.

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Speaker 1: It's super important.

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Speaker 2: Happened spectacular in science, not amazing at life logistics, and

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Speaker 2: this is me. This is so I really wanted to

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Speaker 2: include that as another example, right, Like we don't have

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Speaker 2: to talk about people as if they're perfect, shiny emblems.

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Speaker 2: We can talk about people as if they're realistic, and

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Speaker 2: that also makes science more accessible in my opinion. If

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Speaker 2: you're someone who Yeah, in your regular life, you occasionally

393
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Speaker 2: leave your doctorate behind because you've forgotten it, like you

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Speaker 2: could still be amazing at science. So when Ursula Philip

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Speaker 2: and the other Jewish refugee scientists came over, the two

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Speaker 2: of whom who are in the book are Hans Kamus

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Speaker 2: and Hans Gruneberg, they came over to this UCL lab.

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Speaker 2: They were given refuge there, and they were given a salary,

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Speaker 2: and their families were brought over. So all of them

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Speaker 2: were saved, and most of their relatives ended up being

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Speaker 2: murdered in the Holocaust. So they were very clearly saved

402
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Speaker 2: by this, and they were experiencing this in a lab

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Speaker 2: where within the internal lab walls they seem to have

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Speaker 2: been treated as equals, at least as far as I

405
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Speaker 2: can tell, and their communications from the time period are

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Speaker 2: very honest, so they seem to have been treated as equals.

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Speaker 2: But outside the rest of the world was still kind

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Speaker 2: of brewing with anti Semitism. One of the things I

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Speaker 2: really tried to do when I wrote this book was

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Speaker 2: to give every action a context, because I think that's

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Speaker 2: the true story of science. It's why did people work

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Speaker 2: on this?

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Speaker 1: Now?

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Speaker 2: Why did people care about this? Now what was it

415
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Speaker 2: like for the individuals doing it, And so I dedicated

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Speaker 2: some time in one of the earlier chapters to after

417
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Speaker 2: they come through and they're in London, there are riots

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Speaker 2: in this street. There were literal physical riots in the

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Speaker 2: streets of London outside the campus walls over judaism, communism, fascism,

420
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Speaker 2: kind of all of these ideas that we know in

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Speaker 2: a couple of years will turn into literal war. During

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Speaker 2: World War two, and so they were kind of in

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Speaker 2: this little bubble where they'd been getting an opportunity to

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Speaker 2: get out of the most extreme anti semitism, but we're

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Speaker 2: still in a context where they were fighting for a

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Speaker 2: country where there were layers of discrimination.

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Speaker 1: This makes it so fascinating because they go through so

428
00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:03,359
Speaker 1: much in the service of creating this really doing all

429
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Speaker 1: this research on this project and creating solutions to problems

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Speaker 1: that help everyone, even though everyone has not been cool

431
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Speaker 1: to them. One of the sort of two of the

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Speaker 1: things that you mentioned early on as the top of

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Speaker 1: those lists of problems that this assembled team worked on

434
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Speaker 1: were carbon dioxide and decompression sickness. And one of the

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Speaker 1: things that I really enjoy about your writing is that

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Speaker 1: you and I've told you this before, and I think

437
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Speaker 1: it embarrassed you. Is that you parse science in a

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Speaker 1: way that normies like myself who love science but sometimes

439
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:37,479
Speaker 1: grapple with understanding it, will get it and it opens

440
00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:39,600
Speaker 1: these doors. So I would love for you to explain

441
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:43,840
Speaker 1: in layman's terms why it is so critical to understand

442
00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:49,040
Speaker 1: these things in a wartime situation or any underwater situation

443
00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:53,199
Speaker 1: and other situations, so that it makes a little a

444
00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:56,159
Speaker 1: little easier sense. And some of it, I think is

445
00:24:56,160 --> 00:25:01,160
Speaker 1: stuff that doesn't make it to layman because frankly, the

446
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:03,840
Speaker 1: times it has gone wrong have been horrific and nobody

447
00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:06,280
Speaker 1: wants to really get into it.

448
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:09,880
Speaker 2: Right. Okay, so you didn't embarrass me. I appreciated the comment,

449
00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:12,800
Speaker 2: but I think what I took opposition to is the

450
00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:15,119
Speaker 2: word normis, because.

451
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:21,760
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, no, but in.

452
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:24,760
Speaker 2: My opinion, science is for everyone, and if you are

453
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:28,159
Speaker 2: not a professional scientist, the the only thing that's usually

454
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:33,280
Speaker 2: missing is the daily vocabulary. Every profession has their daily

455
00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:37,200
Speaker 2: vocabulary of terms, and just because you don't know all

456
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:40,240
Speaker 2: of those doesn't mean you're stupid like it's or it

457
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:43,360
Speaker 2: doesn't mean you're less intelligent or whatever. So yeah, that's

458
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:46,000
Speaker 2: I try to. One of my major goals is to

459
00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:49,240
Speaker 2: just be like, listen, you just you don't know the word,

460
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:52,639
Speaker 2: and that's that's fine. This isn't your daily job. I

461
00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:55,640
Speaker 2: don't know the daily words and terminology of your job

462
00:25:55,680 --> 00:26:01,600
Speaker 2: either either. That's a separate versation, right. So one of

463
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,760
Speaker 2: the things that I really try to do is emphasize

464
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:08,800
Speaker 2: not only what these people were doing, who they are,

465
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:11,560
Speaker 2: but also why this problem is important and why it's

466
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:15,640
Speaker 2: so challenging. This is something that I began to appreciate

467
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:18,800
Speaker 2: as a scientist myself, because I get a lot of

468
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:22,600
Speaker 2: questions about, well, why can't they do this, why can't

469
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:25,000
Speaker 2: they do that, or why can't they just make a thing? Now,

470
00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:26,200
Speaker 2: first of all, who is they?

471
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:31,160
Speaker 1: So be more specific the grand poop of science?

472
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:36,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, because we can. The question is how much money

473
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:40,600
Speaker 2: are you willing to contribute to our salaries? Unfortunately, at

474
00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:42,840
Speaker 2: this point in my life, no one has yet given

475
00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 2: me the vast sums of money it would require for

476
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:48,639
Speaker 2: me to do science for free. So because I do

477
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:51,320
Speaker 2: have a mortgage, I do have to buy food, and

478
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:54,680
Speaker 2: that's just yeah, it's one of the sad limitations of

479
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:55,480
Speaker 2: my life situation.

480
00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:56,680
Speaker 1: Right.

481
00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:59,960
Speaker 2: So, like most other scientists. We have to have funding

482
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:02,959
Speaker 2: just because as much as we love this stuff, like,

483
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 2: we still have to survive, and so we have to

484
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:09,600
Speaker 2: have funding to pay salaries, buy equipment, and buy lab

485
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:13,159
Speaker 2: space and things like that. So if someone is not

486
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:15,679
Speaker 2: willing to invest in a thing, then we really have

487
00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:19,440
Speaker 2: a hard time achieving it for those practical life limitations. Yeah,

488
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:24,320
Speaker 2: so I wanted to emphasize not only what the people

489
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:28,440
Speaker 2: were doing, but how complex some of these problems are.

490
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:42,240
Speaker 1: So will you explain, though, why carbon dioxide and decompression

491
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:44,720
Speaker 1: sickness are such huge issues and why at this point

492
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:46,879
Speaker 1: in time people were like, I don't know what's going on.

493
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:48,920
Speaker 1: These guys did not make it. We're trying to figure

494
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:49,200
Speaker 1: it out.

495
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:52,760
Speaker 2: Okay, So the big question is the ending of what

496
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:55,719
Speaker 2: you just said, Why people are like, I don't know.

497
00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:58,960
Speaker 2: We all experience this. This ties back in the pandemic.

498
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:03,200
Speaker 2: Everyone experience this in the non scientific world real time

499
00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:07,879
Speaker 2: during the pandemic. In science, if you're talking about sickness,

500
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:10,639
Speaker 2: you're talking about death, you're talking about injury, anything that

501
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:15,040
Speaker 2: happens to human beings, we don't know anything until it

502
00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:19,600
Speaker 2: starts happening to someone. We can do tests for years

503
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:23,640
Speaker 2: in petrie dishes or whatever, and it's still not going

504
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 2: to be the same as putting a person through it.

505
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:29,480
Speaker 2: I can put a Patriot dish in a car seat

506
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:31,119
Speaker 2: all you want, but it's not going to tell me

507
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:35,199
Speaker 2: when someone's going to die in a car crash. So unfortunately,

508
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:36,959
Speaker 2: a lot of the data that we get in all

509
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:40,160
Speaker 2: these scenarios comes because someone got hurt, or someone got sick,

510
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 2: or someone died, and we're not going to do that

511
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:45,880
Speaker 2: on purpose. I'm never going to blow some up on purpose.

512
00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:50,640
Speaker 2: So my data from BLAS, for example, comes from when

513
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:54,240
Speaker 2: people have gotten blown up by accident. So what we

514
00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 2: saw in the pandemic was that being worked out real

515
00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:59,200
Speaker 2: time with in illness, where we're like, we don't know yet,

516
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 2: we're waiting for this to spread. We have to see

517
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:03,880
Speaker 2: how this happens naturally because we can't ethically do this

518
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:06,160
Speaker 2: on purpose. And that was the same thing that was

519
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:09,520
Speaker 2: happening with diving in DCS. So with diving in decompression

520
00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:14,760
Speaker 2: sickness DCS, otherwise known as the bends, this just started happening.

521
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 2: It was a thing happening to bridge construction workers and

522
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:22,960
Speaker 2: people were like, we don't know, we're going to try

523
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:26,239
Speaker 2: a couple things. Most of those things are not going

524
00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:31,320
Speaker 2: to work. Eventually one will and eventually the one that

525
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:35,120
Speaker 2: really did work was invented or thought up by JBS

526
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:39,040
Speaker 2: Haldane's father, John Scott Haldane, which is how JBS kind

527
00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:41,760
Speaker 2: of got into diving. So he looked at the idea

528
00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 2: of decompression. So he looked at the idea of how

529
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:47,040
Speaker 2: to plan your decompression so that you can avoid the

530
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:49,720
Speaker 2: disease in the first place. And he kind of was

531
00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:53,200
Speaker 2: one of the first pioneers of the field to understand

532
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:56,000
Speaker 2: that the human body needs time to process that's happening

533
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:56,800
Speaker 2: to it underwater.

534
00:29:57,440 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 1: I'm going to come back to science in a little bit,

535
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:00,960
Speaker 1: but first I I kind of want to talk about

536
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:06,400
Speaker 1: Haldane because he's a doozy of a character. One of

537
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 1: the issues that comes up in the book is communism

538
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 1: because he was very bought into that movement for a

539
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:12,520
Speaker 1: long time.

540
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 2: He was bought into everything whatever he liked. He was

541
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,960
Speaker 2: like hunter present this, yes, you know, no happening.

542
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:22,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like the propaganda that was coming out of Communist

543
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 1: Russia convinced him. Will you talk a little bit about

544
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:30,680
Speaker 1: the part that affiliation with communism plays in his life story.

545
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:35,040
Speaker 2: Yes, so he bought into communism, and this was really

546
00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:38,000
Speaker 2: common in the nineteen thirties, So I tried to be

547
00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:40,360
Speaker 2: clear about that in the book, like now it's considered

548
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:43,200
Speaker 2: a bit of a fringe and extremist belief. That's because

549
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:46,680
Speaker 2: now we have the example of what really happened in communism.

550
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:50,360
Speaker 2: They did not have that yet. It was still pretty theoretical,

551
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:55,200
Speaker 2: and the Russians, this early Soviet experiment, was essentially lying

552
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 2: to the rest of the world, and they were lying well,

553
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:02,280
Speaker 2: they convinced a lot of people. So for Jamie as

554
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:06,040
Speaker 2: Hell Dane, he looked at communism as a way to

555
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 2: fight fascism. You have this fascist idea that one person

556
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 2: should really be in charge, and then you have this

557
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:16,600
Speaker 2: communist idea that the people should be in charge. And

558
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:20,640
Speaker 2: because he really opposed fascism, he had been in World

559
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:23,200
Speaker 2: War One, he'd been in the trenches in World War One,

560
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:27,560
Speaker 2: and he had seen what happens when essentially monarchs are

561
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:31,120
Speaker 2: able to pit their people against each other at will.

562
00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:38,280
Speaker 2: He became very anti individualistic government control. And then he

563
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:41,280
Speaker 2: ends up going to the Spanish Civil War voluntarily, and

564
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:44,040
Speaker 2: that's where I think he really got radicalized because he

565
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:48,960
Speaker 2: was fighting with the communists against the fascist regimes. So

566
00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 2: when World War two starts to break out and everything

567
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:54,880
Speaker 2: starts to wremble, this is all coming in the context

568
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:57,920
Speaker 2: of right after the Great Depression. So you have this

569
00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:01,000
Speaker 2: guy who's not only been in these wars led by

570
00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:06,160
Speaker 2: these monarchical and fascist dictators, you have this world that's

571
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:08,960
Speaker 2: going through this massive depression where there are food riots

572
00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:13,480
Speaker 2: and starvation and lots of problems that people are saying, oh, well,

573
00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:16,880
Speaker 2: theoretically this could be fixed by communism, which we now

574
00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:21,160
Speaker 2: know it doesn't, but at that time very appealing. So

575
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:24,640
Speaker 2: he kind of becomes a big part of this and

576
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:29,360
Speaker 2: that really starts to inform his perspective in terms of science.

577
00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:32,000
Speaker 2: There's a lot of evidence that he did this in

578
00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:36,480
Speaker 2: part because the communists were saying, oh, well, this is

579
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:39,840
Speaker 2: the application of science to help people, and that was

580
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 2: a thing he really cared about. Like he really cared

581
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:46,000
Speaker 2: about using science to help people. That was one of

582
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:48,640
Speaker 2: his major goals. And so that's how communism and science

583
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:51,120
Speaker 2: really tied together for him. And that's a big part

584
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:53,520
Speaker 2: of I think what motivated the Lab to do this stuff.

585
00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:56,959
Speaker 2: He knew what war was like, and he wanted to

586
00:32:57,000 --> 00:32:57,600
Speaker 2: help end it.

587
00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:02,040
Speaker 1: So I'm still gonna want to talk about Haldane because

588
00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:04,720
Speaker 1: he was I don't know if rebellious is the right

589
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 1: word or just he saw his path and he knew

590
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:11,280
Speaker 1: what he believed was right and what wasn't and a

591
00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:14,480
Speaker 1: lot of that led to things like clashes with his

592
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:18,160
Speaker 1: bosses and the leadership at University College London. Well you

593
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:20,360
Speaker 1: talk a little bit, because there are some very funny

594
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:24,040
Speaker 1: stories about like the ways he got around wartime regulations

595
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:27,200
Speaker 1: and how he would have visitors get onto campus and

596
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:29,520
Speaker 1: into the lab like that cracked me up.

597
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:33,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh my gosh, I love those stories too. Right,

598
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:37,480
Speaker 2: so when the war starts really brewing, the leadership of

599
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 2: University College London U Seel starts to say, okay, we

600
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 2: gotta shut this down, we gotta get people out. We're downtown.

601
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 2: They do turn out to be right, they're a little

602
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:49,840
Speaker 2: bit early. But how Dane is like, nah, no thanks,

603
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:52,920
Speaker 2: I've been bombed several times before. I want to keep researching.

604
00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 2: So that's how much this guy cares about genetics. He's like, no,

605
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:01,680
Speaker 2: bombs are cool, I'm gonna keep We're gonna and he

606
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:04,480
Speaker 2: essentially whenever he has visitors, he tells them to lie

607
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:06,800
Speaker 2: and pretend they're from the government to how to get

608
00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:10,120
Speaker 2: around the guards at the gates. And he's like developed

609
00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:14,799
Speaker 2: secret passageways in things like this. So this is what

610
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:18,480
Speaker 2: he's doing along with his fellow rebellious lab mates, in

611
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:21,800
Speaker 2: order to keep the research going. Part of the reason

612
00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:25,680
Speaker 2: I wanted to include that was because that actually doesn't

613
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:32,560
Speaker 2: seem that unusual to me. You you would be surprised

614
00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:37,520
Speaker 2: how many scientists I've seen with similar behaviors, where they

615
00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:41,279
Speaker 2: they really care about their research to the point where

616
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:44,759
Speaker 2: they're like, no, I'll evacuate when the fire gets to me,

617
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:50,560
Speaker 2: right right. So I thought that that was maybe unusual

618
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:54,160
Speaker 2: for most people, but very classic scientists.

619
00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:58,200
Speaker 1: I sort of love it. I think one of them

620
00:34:58,239 --> 00:34:59,839
Speaker 1: was that he told friends to say they were from

621
00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:02,840
Speaker 1: the Ministry of Food, which Judy is just the nuttiest

622
00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:06,479
Speaker 1: and best. That's a great restaurant name. If anybody wants

623
00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:07,000
Speaker 1: to take it.

624
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:10,200
Speaker 2: I will go, I will go to that.

625
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:14,160
Speaker 1: This is interesting, right because he's doing he's running this lab.

626
00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:16,399
Speaker 1: There's a lot of genetics research going on, but then

627
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:20,760
Speaker 1: they are also being tasked by the government to figure

628
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:24,280
Speaker 1: out these issues that are going on with military operations,

629
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:29,000
Speaker 1: and then the blitz is happening in London where all

630
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:33,520
Speaker 1: of this research is underway. So will you talk about

631
00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:36,799
Speaker 1: sort of the immediacy of the military research at that

632
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:41,280
Speaker 1: point and how they stayed focused on things as bombings

633
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:43,720
Speaker 1: are literally happening in the city, and then of course

634
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:47,880
Speaker 1: they eventually had to move and thank goodness they did.

635
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:53,080
Speaker 2: Oh finally, Oh my gosh, So okay, this was so crazy.

636
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:54,840
Speaker 2: I can't even imagine what this would have been like.

637
00:35:55,760 --> 00:36:00,120
Speaker 2: The know that war is coming, and the Allied military

638
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 2: have this collective gut clenching moment in the summer of

639
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:10,400
Speaker 2: nineteen thirty nine where they know that Hitler is bad

640
00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:13,960
Speaker 2: and they're like, we're gonna start preparing for that. We

641
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:18,200
Speaker 2: think this is gonna get worse, and they start building

642
00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:23,560
Speaker 2: more submarines. What starts happening is they have three sinkings

643
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:26,080
Speaker 2: in a row within three weeks of each other. US

644
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:29,960
Speaker 2: the Squaliss goes down during a training accident, HMS Thetis

645
00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 2: goes down during a training accident, and the French Fany,

646
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:36,640
Speaker 2: which actually still has lost off the Coasta Vietnam that's

647
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:39,920
Speaker 2: a whole side story, goes down during a training accident,

648
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:44,759
Speaker 2: but collectively these countries must have been panicking and they

649
00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:47,400
Speaker 2: kept it out of the news. So this context has

650
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:49,720
Speaker 2: been left out of a lot of World War two histories.

651
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:53,520
Speaker 2: But I can only imagine the panic when they realize

652
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:56,560
Speaker 2: that they don't actually know what they're doing underwater. They

653
00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:59,200
Speaker 2: have no idea how to actually keep people alive in submarines,

654
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:02,880
Speaker 2: much less get them out. How Dane and the UCL

655
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:05,920
Speaker 2: group are geneticis by training, and they start working on

656
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:09,400
Speaker 2: this problem immediately, and they start doing it on themselves.

657
00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:12,440
Speaker 2: Of course, because they're there. They're human beings, they're handy.

658
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:17,399
Speaker 2: This makes sense to a scientist. So as soon as

659
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:20,960
Speaker 2: how Dane testifies in the hearing about what happened with

660
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:24,160
Speaker 2: the HMS Thetis he shows up there. He's literally there

661
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:27,640
Speaker 2: the day after he's done this trial on himself, so

662
00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:29,680
Speaker 2: he's still got a migraine from all the co two.

663
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:33,040
Speaker 2: He's just spent the previous night projectile vomiting through the evening.

664
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:35,799
Speaker 2: And he gets up there and they ask him to

665
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:37,800
Speaker 2: do math, and he does math in front of everyone

666
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:41,640
Speaker 2: on the stand to tell him how much carbon dioxide

667
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:44,000
Speaker 2: absorb it They would have needed to save their separators

668
00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:47,120
Speaker 2: at that point the admiral t goes and you can

669
00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:49,480
Speaker 2: feel it in the documents. They don't say it this way,

670
00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:52,000
Speaker 2: but this is how I mentioned it. They're like, this

671
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:59,480
Speaker 2: is the guy. They basically just start piling it on him.

672
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:03,839
Speaker 2: So like, here's our list of questions. I've read these

673
00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:06,759
Speaker 2: list of questions. Some of them were still working on

674
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:11,800
Speaker 2: a scientist, So eighty years later, we're still working on these.

675
00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:15,799
Speaker 2: What the UCL lab does is basically find this lab

676
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:18,440
Speaker 2: with chambers. They go to the hyperbaric chambers, which are

677
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:21,080
Speaker 2: large metal tubes that can hold in pressure so they

678
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:24,759
Speaker 2: can simulate diving. And they say, okay, this is an emergency.

679
00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:27,640
Speaker 2: We're being told to evacuate. People are leaving the city,

680
00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:30,080
Speaker 2: We're expecting bombings any day. This is part of the

681
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:31,960
Speaker 2: war we are about to be in. And so they

682
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:34,560
Speaker 2: start putting their own bodies in the tubes to test

683
00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:38,160
Speaker 2: this admiralties list of questions. Now, of course we already

684
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:42,520
Speaker 2: talked about up nineteen forty two, dup happens that list

685
00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:45,960
Speaker 2: of questions kind of morphs a little bit. Before it

686
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:49,120
Speaker 2: had been focused a lot on submarines and maybe making

687
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:52,600
Speaker 2: many submarines, and how Dane himself had been pushing this

688
00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:58,040
Speaker 2: idea of free swimming divers, but he didn't really get

689
00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:02,000
Speaker 2: the admiralties full attention until dup in nineteen forty two

690
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:04,680
Speaker 2: when they were like, oh man, we need we need

691
00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:09,600
Speaker 2: people underwater. At the time, HEREOD diving really meant surface

692
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:13,320
Speaker 2: applied diving. So I think Cuba getting Junior Men of Honor.

693
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:16,760
Speaker 2: That's what it looked like. Giant ship over you people

694
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:20,359
Speaker 2: who would be shooting at that. So if you tried

695
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:23,880
Speaker 2: scout a peach with it, it's pretty obvious. So what

696
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:27,520
Speaker 2: they were doing was really working on the first scouting divers,

697
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:30,640
Speaker 2: and they were just in a frenzy for the next

698
00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:33,440
Speaker 2: several years trying to come up with the safety limits

699
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:35,440
Speaker 2: for how people could do this without dying.

700
00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:39,960
Speaker 1: Astonishing, it just kept getting piled on. You mentioned that

701
00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:45,120
Speaker 1: they were themselves test subjects. These are to me some

702
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:47,959
Speaker 1: of the most terrifying passages of the book, because I'm

703
00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:50,600
Speaker 1: a wuss and I don't enjoy discomfort of any flavor.

704
00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:54,719
Speaker 1: But it's one of those things where I'm like, I

705
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:57,719
Speaker 1: understand that this approach led to a much deeper understanding

706
00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:01,200
Speaker 1: of all of this science and asphyxiation, and specifically what

707
00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:03,839
Speaker 1: could happen in summaris is this really a good way

708
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:05,720
Speaker 1: to do experiments?

709
00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:07,799
Speaker 2: What's the alternative?

710
00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:08,960
Speaker 1: Right now?

711
00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:10,400
Speaker 2: Seriously, what's the alternative?

712
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:12,160
Speaker 1: I mean, that's the thing. It's like you can't ask

713
00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:13,799
Speaker 1: a mouse how it felt.

714
00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:15,840
Speaker 2: Right, exactly exactly.

715
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:18,480
Speaker 1: But I do wonder because I know you do lots

716
00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:22,560
Speaker 1: of testing, and it's very careful and regulated and obviously

717
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:25,319
Speaker 1: like there's no way, as you said, to do the

718
00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:27,840
Speaker 1: things they were doing without putting themselves through it. But

719
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:30,960
Speaker 1: were there any instances of this approach where you were like,

720
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:33,680
Speaker 1: they have gone too far? This was Nope, nope, nope,

721
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:36,040
Speaker 1: you should not have done that, sir. I mean, we'll

722
00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:37,600
Speaker 1: talk more about all of the injuries.

723
00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:43,400
Speaker 2: But knowing what I know now, it's impossible for me

724
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:47,680
Speaker 2: to evaluate their experiences because my knowledge is based on

725
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:52,240
Speaker 2: what they did. Our entire field, my entire professional field,

726
00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:55,160
Speaker 2: is based on what this group did during World War Two,

727
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:58,680
Speaker 2: but it was so classified. My entire professional field is

728
00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:00,839
Speaker 2: going to be finding out this story from this book too.

729
00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:03,319
Speaker 2: None of us knew. I had to dig it out

730
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:07,040
Speaker 2: so I can look back now and say, yes, if

731
00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:10,760
Speaker 2: someone today did that, I would punch them in the face,

732
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:15,399
Speaker 2: because that's insane. But I know that because this group

733
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:19,160
Speaker 2: did it. When I was writing it, I'm I'm very

734
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:24,960
Speaker 2: flattered you found it terrifying because what I'm glad I

735
00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:27,479
Speaker 2: could chill you to your core, because what I wanted

736
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:30,359
Speaker 2: to do was convey what they would have experienced. They

737
00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:32,799
Speaker 2: were getting in this too. It was tiny, it was

738
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:35,440
Speaker 2: thick metal. They had no real way of communicating with

739
00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:37,680
Speaker 2: the outside except for scribbling notes and holding them up

740
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:40,600
Speaker 2: to the very small window. There was no lighting inside.

741
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:42,840
Speaker 2: It would have been dark, it would have been loud,

742
00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:45,040
Speaker 2: and they had no way to get out in case

743
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:47,799
Speaker 2: of an emergency. Because you're under pressure. You can't just

744
00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:51,480
Speaker 2: come back up. You're gonna I'll get DCS. So I

745
00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:56,239
Speaker 2: really wanted to convey how terrifying that would have been

746
00:41:56,800 --> 00:42:00,239
Speaker 2: as an exploration. Now, when we do it, we have

747
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:04,360
Speaker 2: prescribed guidelines. I can do things safely because of this group.

748
00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:07,840
Speaker 2: When they were doing that, every single time they closed

749
00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:10,560
Speaker 2: out chamber door, they had no idea what was about

750
00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:13,080
Speaker 2: to happen to their bodies. And I really tried to

751
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:16,640
Speaker 2: convey that through putting in a sampling of the experiments. So, yeah,

752
00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:19,240
Speaker 2: there are some experiments in there where everything is fine.

753
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:22,680
Speaker 2: Everyone comes out and they have a nice afternoon and

754
00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:25,400
Speaker 2: then they eat sandwiches. And there are other experiments in

755
00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:29,440
Speaker 2: there where like it's really bad, people could have died,

756
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:31,719
Speaker 2: so they had no idea going in.

757
00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:45,719
Speaker 1: There are very real negative repercussions to their work. Will

758
00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:48,319
Speaker 1: you talk about some of the physical damage that some

759
00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:53,000
Speaker 1: of these researchers ended up with. I was so squinked

760
00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:58,319
Speaker 1: out by the lit cigarette test that was done. I

761
00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:01,920
Speaker 1: don't even know how to discribe the contortions my body

762
00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:04,560
Speaker 1: went through, which was Jim Rendall, right.

763
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:07,359
Speaker 2: Yes, would you like me to talk about that one?

764
00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:10,600
Speaker 1: Sure? Okay, you could use a couple if you have

765
00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:14,160
Speaker 1: two that are you know, too horrifyingly graphic.

766
00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:20,080
Speaker 2: Yesterday I spent a lengthy amount of time explaining the

767
00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:21,640
Speaker 2: concept of lung butter to someone.

768
00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:22,680
Speaker 1: So I have a problem.

769
00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:26,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, you have to. You'll have to tell me what

770
00:43:26,239 --> 00:43:30,120
Speaker 2: your limit is. Jim Roundell full name James, but went

771
00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:33,799
Speaker 2: by Jim. He was a PhD geneticist. And I love

772
00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:36,000
Speaker 2: this guy because he's a tall person like me, And

773
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:38,680
Speaker 2: so he curls up in the chamber one day and

774
00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:42,200
Speaker 2: he's going down there and everything seems fine. So he

775
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:44,760
Speaker 2: has a successful test he's a little bit of trouble

776
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:48,040
Speaker 2: clearing his ears, meaning equalizing with the pressure changes, just

777
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:52,120
Speaker 2: like on an airplane. That everything seems okay. So he

778
00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:55,440
Speaker 2: comes up and he just has this weird chest paint,

779
00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:59,000
Speaker 2: like it's really small. It's just bothering him. He assumes

780
00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:03,319
Speaker 2: that someone gave him a problematic meat pie, which just

781
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:05,360
Speaker 2: laughed that he blamed the meat pie is like, no,

782
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:09,080
Speaker 2: I just ate a weird thing. It keeps getting worse,

783
00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:12,719
Speaker 2: So eventually he goes to the doctor. The doctor just

784
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:16,200
Speaker 2: slices him open between his ribs and he notices that

785
00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:20,480
Speaker 2: Jim Rendell's entire lung has collapsed. So what's occurred is

786
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:23,319
Speaker 2: there was some pocket of gas in his lung and

787
00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:26,520
Speaker 2: as they were coming up from depth, the gas was

788
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:31,360
Speaker 2: trapped and it couldn't fully expand. Now this doesn't usually happen.

789
00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:33,719
Speaker 2: This is not a normal thing, but some people have

790
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:37,920
Speaker 2: flukes of physiology. If he maybe had tuberculosis or another

791
00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:40,759
Speaker 2: major respiratory disease where there was scarring in his lung,

792
00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:43,600
Speaker 2: that could happen. It's not extremely common, but it is

793
00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:47,080
Speaker 2: a thing that exists. And so as he was going

794
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:51,200
Speaker 2: up that gas couldn't expand. He couldn't exhale it, and

795
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:55,000
Speaker 2: it ruptured into his chest instead, It'll go somewhere. The

796
00:44:55,120 --> 00:45:00,759
Speaker 2: laws of physics always win, and so every time he

797
00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:04,040
Speaker 2: breathed in a little bit of his breath would go

798
00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:07,000
Speaker 2: out through that same rupture and go more into his

799
00:45:07,120 --> 00:45:10,399
Speaker 2: chest cavity. Eventually, the bubble in his chest cavity grew

800
00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:13,160
Speaker 2: bigger than his lungs. It collapsed his lungs, and it

801
00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:16,640
Speaker 2: started shoving his heart to the side. So if he'd

802
00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:20,160
Speaker 2: kept breathing that way, his heart would have pushed been

803
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:22,279
Speaker 2: pushed so far to the side that it could have

804
00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:24,560
Speaker 2: ruptured one of the major blood vessels and he would

805
00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:27,680
Speaker 2: have bled to death internally. Thankfully, he went to the

806
00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:30,080
Speaker 2: doctor before he reached that part. They made a small

807
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:33,480
Speaker 2: incision in his back, looked around, said hey, this is

808
00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:36,400
Speaker 2: a problem, but to test it and make sure that

809
00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:39,080
Speaker 2: the lung was closed before they sewed him back up.

810
00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:42,680
Speaker 2: The doctor hands him a lit cigarette and says, hey, kids, smoke.

811
00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:46,480
Speaker 2: This not the actual dialogue, but definitely how I meatione it.

812
00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:51,239
Speaker 3: So this is this is a leak test, right, you

813
00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:54,440
Speaker 3: can see smoke. So if he a haales on this

814
00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:58,760
Speaker 3: cigarette and smoke comes into this hole in his chest wall.

815
00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:03,279
Speaker 3: Now we know that the how lung isn't sealed. Thankfully

816
00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:06,600
Speaker 3: for Jim Rendell, no smoke entered his chast cavity.

817
00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:09,040
Speaker 2: It turned out the lung was fully sealed, and they

818
00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:11,520
Speaker 2: could just kind of purge that gas that was in there,

819
00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:14,160
Speaker 2: let the lung reinflate, and then sew im back up.

820
00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:16,640
Speaker 2: But this would keep being a problem for him for

821
00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:20,000
Speaker 2: the rest of his life. Now, this is a fixable problem.

822
00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:22,440
Speaker 2: There are aboutter ways to attach the lung to the chesswall,

823
00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:25,520
Speaker 2: but those are more modern inventions than his time period.

824
00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:27,360
Speaker 2: So this is a thing he struggled with for the

825
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:29,960
Speaker 2: rest of his life. He was permanently disabled by this injury.

826
00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:33,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's one of the more minor injuries that

827
00:46:33,239 --> 00:46:39,880
Speaker 1: you Yeah. Yeah, there are ways in which this obviously

828
00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:45,360
Speaker 1: risk embracing team's personalities, particularly Haldane's. From my perception and

829
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:47,160
Speaker 1: correct me if I'm wrong, seemed like they had the

830
00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:51,360
Speaker 1: potential to really mess with data, because there's that There's

831
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:54,560
Speaker 1: one story where you note that after Haldane was obviously

832
00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:58,480
Speaker 1: incapacitated during a test in which he also became violent,

833
00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:01,359
Speaker 1: he insisted after it was all over that he had

834
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:03,920
Speaker 1: never lost consciousness, even though they were like, yes you did,

835
00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:08,160
Speaker 1: we watched you. This to me is so fascinating in

836
00:47:08,239 --> 00:47:11,440
Speaker 1: a scientist, like there's some weird hubris in the mix,

837
00:47:11,480 --> 00:47:14,640
Speaker 1: and your depiction of him is really unflinching because you

838
00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:17,080
Speaker 1: do show both his positive and negative traits. We talked

839
00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:20,080
Speaker 1: about that a little bit earlier. But did any of

840
00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:23,160
Speaker 1: his behaviors kind of come as a surprise to you

841
00:47:23,239 --> 00:47:25,919
Speaker 1: where you're like, dude, you are a mess.

842
00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:33,359
Speaker 4: Honestly, not really like scientists are quirky group. Man, We're

843
00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:35,719
Speaker 4: just We're just a quirky group.

844
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:38,880
Speaker 2: And I love us. This is I'm a scientist. But

845
00:47:41,440 --> 00:47:45,600
Speaker 2: I found his behavior to be both problematic in the

846
00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:48,360
Speaker 2: way that he would have explosions, but in that sense

847
00:47:48,480 --> 00:47:54,840
Speaker 2: endearing because I really related to what I assume. And

848
00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:56,879
Speaker 2: again this is this is an assumption on my part,

849
00:47:56,920 --> 00:48:02,319
Speaker 2: but why I assume were blow ups by inability to

850
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:05,440
Speaker 2: connect and communicate with other people in what's considered a

851
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:10,080
Speaker 2: normal fashion. And so when he had these moments, they

852
00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:16,440
Speaker 2: were usually moments of extreme frustration over something. And I

853
00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:21,439
Speaker 2: think that that's a reaction that some people have when

854
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:26,200
Speaker 2: they're finding they're not being understood, and so that his

855
00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:28,920
Speaker 2: reaction was not appropriate. All adults should be able to

856
00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:32,960
Speaker 2: control their behavior, but nobody can control their feelings, right,

857
00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:35,359
Speaker 2: So I just saw this as a man who had

858
00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:39,000
Speaker 2: never had to control his behavior, but was having feelings

859
00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:44,000
Speaker 2: born of being othered. And that made me sympathize and

860
00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:46,040
Speaker 2: maybe even a little bit empathy. I don't have a

861
00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:48,520
Speaker 2: temper at all, but maybe even a little empathized with

862
00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:53,600
Speaker 2: some of his difficulty communicating in those moments, with regard

863
00:48:53,640 --> 00:48:56,640
Speaker 2: to the ones where he was denying being unconscious. To me,

864
00:48:56,800 --> 00:48:59,280
Speaker 2: that's so fascinating that you took it that way, because

865
00:48:59,719 --> 00:49:03,040
Speaker 2: this I would report everything. He was super honest. He

866
00:49:03,080 --> 00:49:05,200
Speaker 2: even had one lab record and I couldn't find a

867
00:49:05,239 --> 00:49:07,799
Speaker 2: way to squeeze it. In the book where he was

868
00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:10,600
Speaker 2: calling himself fat, that was his word for himself, and

869
00:49:10,719 --> 00:49:13,040
Speaker 2: he was describing how he had to run for the train,

870
00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:17,800
Speaker 2: and he describes again his words, his left breast flapping

871
00:49:18,239 --> 00:49:21,200
Speaker 2: and how there was pain under it, and so he

872
00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:24,920
Speaker 2: was like honorly um flitching and describing his own bodily

873
00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:28,000
Speaker 2: functions as well. So to me, my conclusion from that

874
00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:31,600
Speaker 2: experiment was that he had severe neurological trauma, not that

875
00:49:31,719 --> 00:49:34,640
Speaker 2: he was in denial. But that's interesting that that's how

876
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:35,400
Speaker 2: that came across.

877
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:39,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that you have the most compassionate reads

878
00:49:39,120 --> 00:49:41,280
Speaker 1: of him. I might not be as nice a person

879
00:49:41,360 --> 00:49:43,319
Speaker 1: because sometimes I'm like, you danged all, would you stop

880
00:49:43,360 --> 00:49:45,560
Speaker 1: being so weird? But like we all are.

881
00:49:46,160 --> 00:49:50,160
Speaker 2: That's kind of my general reaction of people in life always,

882
00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:52,799
Speaker 2: Like my general reaction is to try and find the compassionate,

883
00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:55,120
Speaker 2: like what do we have in common? And why is

884
00:49:55,160 --> 00:49:58,239
Speaker 2: this difficult? But yeah, I think it also may have

885
00:49:58,280 --> 00:49:59,719
Speaker 2: bit different if I had to deal with him in

886
00:49:59,719 --> 00:50:00,240
Speaker 2: real life.

887
00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:05,040
Speaker 1: Right, he seems a little like a pill. Yeah, I

888
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:07,640
Speaker 1: loved There was one line in the book where I

889
00:50:07,719 --> 00:50:10,439
Speaker 1: was like, I am in love with this sentence. You

890
00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:14,720
Speaker 1: describe Haldane and Helen Spurway as the Bonnie and Clyde

891
00:50:14,719 --> 00:50:17,400
Speaker 1: of clandestine genetics.

892
00:50:18,080 --> 00:50:20,920
Speaker 2: I'm glad you love that sentence, because yes, that's in

893
00:50:20,960 --> 00:50:25,560
Speaker 2: my head. They're like fully outfitted, like perfection. Yeah again,

894
00:50:25,640 --> 00:50:27,520
Speaker 2: you see all it is closed down and they're like

895
00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:32,040
Speaker 2: breaking into their experimental rooms. I loved to research with flies.

896
00:50:32,440 --> 00:50:36,760
Speaker 1: I love it so awesome, And obviously like their work

897
00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:43,839
Speaker 1: together bonded them so deeply because their relationship evolves from

898
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:47,080
Speaker 1: a professional one and a working relationship to a personal one.

899
00:50:47,120 --> 00:50:48,759
Speaker 1: Will you talk a little bit about that.

900
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:52,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like they were just a really unique

901
00:50:52,960 --> 00:50:58,239
Speaker 2: couple in the sense that they both had difficulty processing

902
00:50:58,680 --> 00:51:03,400
Speaker 2: social regular like social mandates and social norms, and I

903
00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:05,920
Speaker 2: think that was a big part of why they were

904
00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:09,720
Speaker 2: such a tightly knit couple almost from the moment they met.

905
00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:12,640
Speaker 2: So I mentioned earlier that JBS Haldane had been married

906
00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:15,680
Speaker 2: when they met, but his marriage had already been a

907
00:51:15,680 --> 00:51:19,799
Speaker 2: bit sour, and they didn't have a conventional marriage to

908
00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:22,640
Speaker 2: begin with. There's some indication that they were openly polyamorous

909
00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:25,560
Speaker 2: even at that time, but in the nineteen thirties, obviously

910
00:51:25,640 --> 00:51:29,320
Speaker 2: this was not socially acceptable. So when he met Helen

911
00:51:29,400 --> 00:51:33,799
Speaker 2: Spurway and they had this incredible bond over genetics, I

912
00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:37,439
Speaker 2: kind of loved that for them. I was cheering them

913
00:51:37,480 --> 00:51:42,840
Speaker 2: on because as someone who has like delighted in having

914
00:51:42,880 --> 00:51:46,719
Speaker 2: conversations at three am about inflammatory pathways in the liver, like,

915
00:51:47,040 --> 00:51:52,080
Speaker 2: I just really wanted that experience for somebody else, and

916
00:51:52,160 --> 00:51:58,239
Speaker 2: that that, plus they're their slight disconnect from society and

917
00:51:58,239 --> 00:52:01,239
Speaker 2: the way to communicate, made me feel like the two

918
00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:05,200
Speaker 2: of them really connected with things that were fundamentally important

919
00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:05,919
Speaker 2: to the both of them.

920
00:52:07,040 --> 00:52:09,000
Speaker 1: I also couldn't help out wondering if there's like a

921
00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:12,840
Speaker 1: degree of almost trauma bond with them at that point,

922
00:52:12,880 --> 00:52:16,240
Speaker 1: Like they have been through like secret science during the Blitz,

923
00:52:16,320 --> 00:52:19,160
Speaker 1: they are part of a really groundbreaking thing that they

924
00:52:19,200 --> 00:52:22,120
Speaker 1: never get to talk about. You know, they just have

925
00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:24,600
Speaker 1: like a unique thing where no one on earth understands

926
00:52:24,640 --> 00:52:27,359
Speaker 1: me but you, and you understand all of it.

927
00:52:28,080 --> 00:52:31,720
Speaker 2: They both went through their entire lives just like being

928
00:52:31,880 --> 00:52:37,560
Speaker 2: really really OTHEREDJBS hall Day because of his temper, so

929
00:52:37,680 --> 00:52:41,120
Speaker 2: that that part is slightly deserved, But his temper, in

930
00:52:41,160 --> 00:52:45,960
Speaker 2: my opinion, was from difficulty communicating with other people and

931
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:48,440
Speaker 2: then held spur away. A lot of it was really

932
00:52:48,520 --> 00:52:51,839
Speaker 2: gendered a lot of the comments and reactions to her

933
00:52:52,160 --> 00:52:55,520
Speaker 2: were very very gendered. And she similarly just has this

934
00:52:55,560 --> 00:52:58,759
Speaker 2: passion where all they ever wanted to do was go

935
00:52:58,840 --> 00:53:04,160
Speaker 2: to lab and statistics on fruit flies, study genetics, and

936
00:53:04,200 --> 00:53:06,680
Speaker 2: they both are just like, I don't understand why there's

937
00:53:06,719 --> 00:53:09,879
Speaker 2: so many obstacles. But yeah, they both had their works

938
00:53:09,960 --> 00:53:13,239
Speaker 2: stolen from them because people didn't like them things like that,

939
00:53:13,480 --> 00:53:15,799
Speaker 2: So yeah, I would I would completely agree with you.

940
00:53:15,840 --> 00:53:18,840
Speaker 2: I think there's elements of trauma bonding, both from surviving

941
00:53:18,840 --> 00:53:22,960
Speaker 2: the war and also from the way that they interacted

942
00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:24,160
Speaker 2: with the rest of humanity.

943
00:53:25,480 --> 00:53:29,560
Speaker 1: Here's a million other question. If you could choose just

944
00:53:29,680 --> 00:53:32,000
Speaker 1: one thing for readers to take away from this book,

945
00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:36,759
Speaker 1: what would it be. I know it's hard because this

946
00:53:36,800 --> 00:53:39,560
Speaker 1: is a book dense with information and cool stories.

947
00:53:40,040 --> 00:53:43,719
Speaker 2: It's actually not that hard. I was taking a deep

948
00:53:43,719 --> 00:53:44,920
Speaker 2: breath because I have thoughts.

949
00:53:46,440 --> 00:53:48,919
Speaker 1: You're like, I'm just shifting gears.

950
00:53:48,600 --> 00:53:53,560
Speaker 2: Baby, Yeah, no, I know. This book started because I

951
00:53:53,600 --> 00:53:56,759
Speaker 2: wanted to write a book about scientistics fermenting on themselves.

952
00:53:57,480 --> 00:54:00,600
Speaker 2: So my original idea was a compilation of a multiple

953
00:54:00,960 --> 00:54:04,480
Speaker 2: multiple stories, and my agent, Lorie Apkmeyer, who's amazing and

954
00:54:04,719 --> 00:54:07,120
Speaker 2: always right, she was like, no, no, no, people will

955
00:54:07,280 --> 00:54:09,640
Speaker 2: lose track one story to the other. Pick one. Focus

956
00:54:09,719 --> 00:54:13,440
Speaker 2: on that. So that's what happened here. And the reason

957
00:54:13,440 --> 00:54:16,320
Speaker 2: that I wanted to write that book which didn't happen,

958
00:54:16,360 --> 00:54:20,160
Speaker 2: and this book, which did, is because I wanted to

959
00:54:20,239 --> 00:54:25,040
Speaker 2: give people a window into the humanity behind scientific results.

960
00:54:25,520 --> 00:54:28,520
Speaker 2: That's what I want people to take away. We're people,

961
00:54:29,560 --> 00:54:36,440
Speaker 2: were imperfect, We're genuinely doing our best. We're moving things forward.

962
00:54:36,800 --> 00:54:41,120
Speaker 2: Whenever we can. Sometimes we get bombed, sometimes we get

963
00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:44,760
Speaker 2: run out of funding. That all impacts research. So every

964
00:54:44,880 --> 00:54:47,520
Speaker 2: piece of scientific data, every recommendation that comes out, like

965
00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:51,479
Speaker 2: there's a story of humanity behind it. That's what I want.

966
00:54:51,719 --> 00:54:55,200
Speaker 1: We'd love it. Was there anything else you wanted to

967
00:54:55,320 --> 00:54:57,560
Speaker 1: share or talk about related to this that we haven't

968
00:54:57,600 --> 00:54:58,000
Speaker 1: touched on.

969
00:54:58,760 --> 00:55:01,000
Speaker 2: I can't think of anything, really. I think you've done

970
00:55:01,000 --> 00:55:03,800
Speaker 2: a really good job of letting me prattle on about

971
00:55:03,840 --> 00:55:05,440
Speaker 2: these people and how awesome they were.

972
00:55:05,840 --> 00:55:09,160
Speaker 1: Kidding, that's not prattling, that's like, you know.

973
00:55:09,600 --> 00:55:11,640
Speaker 2: I just want to emphasize again, like this book was

974
00:55:11,680 --> 00:55:15,359
Speaker 2: important to me because as Americans, we think about World

975
00:55:15,400 --> 00:55:19,359
Speaker 2: War Two as Pearl Harbor December seventh, nineteen forty one,

976
00:55:19,800 --> 00:55:22,840
Speaker 2: and then a time work occurs d Day, June sixth,

977
00:55:23,000 --> 00:55:27,480
Speaker 2: nineteen forty four. I'm like, that's kind of I'm guilty

978
00:55:27,520 --> 00:55:29,279
Speaker 2: of this too. I'm guilty of this too, But that's

979
00:55:29,360 --> 00:55:32,000
Speaker 2: that's sort of the history version we always get. And

980
00:55:32,080 --> 00:55:35,640
Speaker 2: so this book is kind of my answer to what

981
00:55:35,800 --> 00:55:39,799
Speaker 2: happened in between? Why did it take three years? Why

982
00:55:39,840 --> 00:55:42,440
Speaker 2: did what happened in between? What was life like? What

983
00:55:42,480 --> 00:55:45,960
Speaker 2: were people working on? How did what did we do

984
00:55:46,040 --> 00:55:48,439
Speaker 2: with that time to make D Day possible and save

985
00:55:48,480 --> 00:55:49,560
Speaker 2: as many lives as we could.

986
00:55:50,680 --> 00:55:53,280
Speaker 1: It's such a good read I highly recommend for anybody.

987
00:55:53,440 --> 00:55:57,480
Speaker 1: Chamber divers is out now pretty much wherever you can

988
00:55:57,480 --> 00:55:58,600
Speaker 1: get a book there it is.

989
00:55:59,680 --> 00:56:03,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, please support local bookstores if you're able, if you're

990
00:56:03,960 --> 00:56:06,400
Speaker 2: not able, libraries are great too. Libraries actually are a

991
00:56:06,400 --> 00:56:08,959
Speaker 2: way to support authors. There is a system there, yes,

992
00:56:10,000 --> 00:56:12,320
Speaker 2: And we just love a library, so yes.

993
00:56:12,480 --> 00:56:15,200
Speaker 1: Also, there are cool, great people at the library, so

994
00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:20,359
Speaker 1: go there. Doctor Rachel. Just seems like a funny way

995
00:56:20,440 --> 00:56:24,080
Speaker 1: to call you. Rachel. Thank you so much for spending

996
00:56:24,080 --> 00:56:27,880
Speaker 1: this time with us. I feel spoiled a whole hour

997
00:56:27,960 --> 00:56:30,600
Speaker 1: of science and science gossip with you.

998
00:56:31,360 --> 00:56:35,120
Speaker 2: Well, I'll be really honest, Holly, I'll talk about science

999
00:56:35,160 --> 00:56:37,279
Speaker 2: for hours to the wall. You know.

1000
00:56:38,400 --> 00:56:45,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, thanks again to doctor Rachel Lance. And that book

1001
00:56:46,040 --> 00:56:49,160
Speaker 1: once again is called Chamber divers If any of the

1002
00:56:49,200 --> 00:56:52,440
Speaker 1: things that she talked about in today's episode piqued your interest,

1003
00:56:52,520 --> 00:56:55,319
Speaker 1: there's so much more of it in the book and

1004
00:56:55,400 --> 00:56:59,160
Speaker 1: that's available now. Yeah, and be ready to read some

1005
00:56:59,200 --> 00:57:01,319
Speaker 1: things that may or may not make you a little

1006
00:57:01,360 --> 00:57:06,200
Speaker 1: bit squeamish but also impressed, terrified, and way more informed

1007
00:57:06,200 --> 00:57:09,600
Speaker 1: about how we have learned about pressure and the human body.

1008
00:57:10,840 --> 00:57:13,879
Speaker 1: I have some listener mail that I don't think will

1009
00:57:13,920 --> 00:57:18,520
Speaker 1: scare anybody. This is about our Margaret Night episode and

1010
00:57:18,640 --> 00:57:22,240
Speaker 1: it is from a listener also named Margaret, who writes

1011
00:57:22,320 --> 00:57:24,320
Speaker 1: I often listen to the podcast while I work on

1012
00:57:24,400 --> 00:57:26,640
Speaker 1: craft projects, and I just happen to be listening to

1013
00:57:26,680 --> 00:57:30,400
Speaker 1: the Margaret Night episode while I was threading my loom. Yes,

1014
00:57:30,640 --> 00:57:32,959
Speaker 1: as you said in the podcast, people do still hand

1015
00:57:33,000 --> 00:57:36,400
Speaker 1: weave on looms, including myself. I have a smallish for

1016
00:57:36,640 --> 00:57:40,080
Speaker 1: shaft loom that I make towels, scarves and fabrics for sewing.

1017
00:57:40,680 --> 00:57:43,280
Speaker 1: The shuttles I use are pointed and would probably be

1018
00:57:43,320 --> 00:57:45,400
Speaker 1: a bit painful if you got hit by one flying

1019
00:57:45,440 --> 00:57:48,080
Speaker 1: toward you, but you would have to be extremely unlucky

1020
00:57:48,080 --> 00:57:50,600
Speaker 1: to be hit hard enough for an injury. I do

1021
00:57:50,760 --> 00:57:54,000
Speaker 1: throw the shuttle with some vigor. My weaving instructor said,

1022
00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:56,240
Speaker 1: if your shuttle never comes flying out the end, you're

1023
00:57:56,280 --> 00:57:58,720
Speaker 1: not throwing it hard enough. The worst that has ever

1024
00:57:58,760 --> 00:58:00,920
Speaker 1: happened with my loom is this show goes clattering to

1025
00:58:00,960 --> 00:58:03,520
Speaker 1: the floor. I really enjoy the podcast and look forward

1026
00:58:03,560 --> 00:58:06,520
Speaker 1: to it every week. For pet tax I'm attaching pictures

1027
00:58:06,520 --> 00:58:11,120
Speaker 1: of my pups. Buzz and May both are named after astronauts. Okay,

1028
00:58:11,120 --> 00:58:13,600
Speaker 1: first of all, astronaut dogs. I'm here for all of it.

1029
00:58:13,720 --> 00:58:18,400
Speaker 1: Second of all, these puppies are so cute. They are

1030
00:58:18,480 --> 00:58:21,760
Speaker 1: little cobby angels and I want to kiss their faces.

1031
00:58:21,960 --> 00:58:24,840
Speaker 1: It just both looks so hilarious and adorable, and they're

1032
00:58:24,880 --> 00:58:28,120
Speaker 1: clearly like these are some good pet portraits that maybe

1033
00:58:28,160 --> 00:58:31,520
Speaker 1: we're taken at like an easter situation or a springtime thing.

1034
00:58:31,720 --> 00:58:37,120
Speaker 1: They're surrounded by flowers. They look like such good babies. Oh,

1035
00:58:37,200 --> 00:58:39,440
Speaker 1: Buzz and May you need some hugs and kisses, so

1036
00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:42,280
Speaker 1: hopefully Margaret will give you some pets and loves from us.

1037
00:58:43,560 --> 00:58:45,040
Speaker 1: Thank you for that. I you know, it's one of

1038
00:58:45,040 --> 00:58:47,680
Speaker 1: those things. I have known people that loom their own stuff,

1039
00:58:48,080 --> 00:58:50,040
Speaker 1: but I don't know very much about the process, and

1040
00:58:50,080 --> 00:58:52,240
Speaker 1: I have never heard about like, no, you have to

1041
00:58:52,320 --> 00:58:56,200
Speaker 1: throw your shut It can't be a long way to

1042
00:58:56,280 --> 00:58:59,640
Speaker 1: get it from one side to the other. Right, Yeah,

1043
00:58:59,640 --> 00:59:03,680
Speaker 1: I done like teeny tiny little projects on like baby

1044
00:59:04,040 --> 00:59:07,520
Speaker 1: versions of looms that are they're real in the sense

1045
00:59:07,520 --> 00:59:09,640
Speaker 1: that they're physical things that exist in the world, but

1046
00:59:09,680 --> 00:59:13,480
Speaker 1: they're not real looms. So that's a good bit of

1047
00:59:13,520 --> 00:59:19,160
Speaker 1: insight and also, you know, obviously safer than the automated

1048
00:59:19,200 --> 00:59:21,800
Speaker 1: ones that caused Margaret Knight to have to figure out

1049
00:59:21,840 --> 00:59:24,000
Speaker 1: a way to make a safety mechanism to prevent her

1050
00:59:24,040 --> 00:59:29,880
Speaker 1: coworkers from getting horribly injured. So, Margaret who wrote us,

1051
00:59:29,880 --> 00:59:32,240
Speaker 1: thank you for your email. If you would like to

1052
00:59:32,240 --> 00:59:34,840
Speaker 1: write us, you can do so at History Podcast at

1053
00:59:34,840 --> 00:59:38,120
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio dot com. You can also find us on social

1054
00:59:38,120 --> 00:59:40,240
Speaker 1: media as missed in History And if you have not

1055
00:59:40,280 --> 00:59:42,680
Speaker 1: subscribed to the show yet, that is easy as pie

1056
00:59:42,720 --> 00:59:44,760
Speaker 1: to do. You can do that on the iHeartRadio app

1057
00:59:44,840 --> 00:59:53,000
Speaker 1: or anywhere you listen to your favorite shows. Stuff you

1058
00:59:53,040 --> 00:59:56,120
Speaker 1: Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For

1059
00:59:56,240 --> 01:00:00,840
Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app podcasts, or

1060
01:00:00,880 --> 01:00:02,800
Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.