WEBVTT - Trump Plans His Tariff ‘Liberation Day’ With More Targeted Push 0:00:02.520 --> 0:00:07.000 Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news. 0:00:08.640 --> 0:00:12.680 This is Bloomberg Business Week Insight from the reporters and 0:00:12.840 --> 0:00:16.800 editors that bring you America's most trusted business magazine, plus 0:00:17.000 --> 0:00:20.799 global business, finance and tech news. The Bloomberg Business Week 0:00:20.840 --> 0:00:25.760 Podcast with Carol Masser and Tim Stenovek on Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:26.840 --> 0:00:28.479 Check your calendars, Mark your calendars. 0:00:28.520 --> 0:00:30.560 We're just about one week away from what President Trump 0:00:30.560 --> 0:00:34.760 calls a Liberation Day tariff announcement, unveiling so called reciprocal 0:00:34.800 --> 0:00:38.240 tariffs he sees as retribution for tariffs and other barriers 0:00:38.240 --> 0:00:41.880 from other countries. This is including some of those longtime 0:00:42.040 --> 0:00:43.000 US allies. 0:00:43.600 --> 0:00:43.800 Yeah. 0:00:43.840 --> 0:00:47.360 Well, the announcement would remain a very significant expansion of 0:00:47.479 --> 0:00:50.519 US tariffs. It is shaping up as more focused than 0:00:50.560 --> 0:00:54.400 the sprawling, fully global effort that Trump has otherwise mused about. 0:00:54.400 --> 0:00:56.760 This is according to people familiar with the matter. 0:00:56.880 --> 0:00:58.960 Meantime, just about ninety minutes or so ago, at a 0:00:59.000 --> 0:01:01.240 White House Cabinet meetia being President, Trump also says he 0:01:01.280 --> 0:01:04.640 will be announcing tariffs on cars very shortly and on 0:01:04.680 --> 0:01:07.640 pharmaceuticals at some point in the not too distant future. 0:01:07.720 --> 0:01:11.840 Those time parameters were his words directly let's get more 0:01:11.880 --> 0:01:14.960 on the president's plans. We head to our Bloomberg News 0:01:15.000 --> 0:01:17.600 Washington DC bureau and to Bloomberg News senior White House 0:01:17.600 --> 0:01:21.800 correspondent Josh Wingrove. Josh, thank you for being with us. 0:01:21.800 --> 0:01:23.720 We know it's super busy just trying to keep track 0:01:24.080 --> 0:01:26.840 of all of the tariff news. President Trump talks about 0:01:26.840 --> 0:01:30.000 liberation day, What exactly does he mean liberation from what 0:01:31.319 --> 0:01:31.840 he thinks. 0:01:31.680 --> 0:01:34.080 The US is being ripped off and that the tariffs 0:01:34.120 --> 0:01:38.440 put in US exports by other countries exceed those, you know, 0:01:38.480 --> 0:01:40.800 the ones that are in place for the US for 0:01:40.800 --> 0:01:42.800 those countries to sell here. And in a lot of 0:01:42.800 --> 0:01:46.440 cases he's right, there is an imbalance of export or 0:01:46.440 --> 0:01:49.280 of tariff levels. But you know a lot of independent 0:01:49.280 --> 0:01:51.200 economists would say they're just simply a function of being 0:01:51.240 --> 0:01:54.720 the world's biggest economy, a consumer driven economy. So that's 0:01:54.760 --> 0:01:56.600 why you don't have a lot of those mainstream sort 0:01:56.600 --> 0:01:59.200 of economists on board with this. But the whole question 0:01:59.240 --> 0:02:01.360 has been you know, what is he going to do? 0:02:01.440 --> 0:02:03.960 And so if you're having trouble tracking the follow the 0:02:03.960 --> 0:02:06.600 ball on this one, I hear you join the club. 0:02:07.440 --> 0:02:09.400 Those stories of a couple of days ago that you 0:02:09.480 --> 0:02:12.400 alluded to. You know, that story is that we think 0:02:12.440 --> 0:02:14.919 that the plan coming on April second, as of now, 0:02:15.040 --> 0:02:17.680 is taking shape as a narrower plan than he's mused 0:02:17.680 --> 0:02:20.840 about in the past, chiefly because he's long since sort 0:02:20.880 --> 0:02:23.400 of moved off the plan for a global tariff, and 0:02:23.440 --> 0:02:25.760 now we'll do these reciprocal tariffs, but not necessarily in 0:02:25.800 --> 0:02:28.440 every country, and that the plan as of now does 0:02:28.480 --> 0:02:31.000 not firmly include, as we report a couple of days ago, 0:02:31.160 --> 0:02:34.359 those sectoral tariffs. Now, as you note, we're told today 0:02:34.360 --> 0:02:37.040 a couple of things. White is official telling us today 0:02:37.040 --> 0:02:40.480 that sectoral tariffs remain on the table, and Trump, of 0:02:40.480 --> 0:02:43.840 course himself alluding to a couple of them, autos and pharmaceuticals, 0:02:44.040 --> 0:02:46.480 not really saying the timeframe, and he's kind of been 0:02:46.520 --> 0:02:50.360 conflating autos and reciprocals as well. So these are a 0:02:50.360 --> 0:02:54.320 lot of tea leaves to read. Tariffs are coming. The 0:02:54.360 --> 0:02:57.960 exact sequencing, the scale of them, and on what day 0:02:58.040 --> 0:03:00.880 and whether they're broken into batches remains unclear, but the 0:03:00.919 --> 0:03:03.960 White House is obviously grappling with how wide to go. 0:03:04.440 --> 0:03:08.680 There are internal discussions around that. Ceah Steve Myron telling 0:03:08.720 --> 0:03:11.520 Slay Emosen on Bloomberg Television in the last hour that 0:03:11.560 --> 0:03:13.960 those discussions are ongoing. So it's all TVD. 0:03:14.280 --> 0:03:17.120 Well, what is We know it's all TBD, and we 0:03:17.200 --> 0:03:20.160 know that, you know, Liberation Day, as the President calls it, 0:03:20.240 --> 0:03:22.720 is just about a little over a week out at 0:03:22.720 --> 0:03:26.600 this point. But what, Josh do we know about his 0:03:26.720 --> 0:03:31.360 thinking and why maybe he's making this more targeted push 0:03:31.440 --> 0:03:33.600 than he previously announced. 0:03:35.400 --> 0:03:37.720 The implication is, and we don't know for sure, but 0:03:37.800 --> 0:03:40.880 you know, markets have been reacting poorly to not only 0:03:40.880 --> 0:03:43.560 the tariff threat and the specter of even more tariffs, 0:03:43.920 --> 0:03:47.280 but the uncertainty around it, the whipsaw effect. Right He imposed, 0:03:47.320 --> 0:03:50.880 for instance, those tariffs on Canada and Mexico, then clawed 0:03:50.880 --> 0:03:54.560 them heavily back temporarily, I'd ad you know, a couple 0:03:54.560 --> 0:03:57.320 of days later. What happens to those remains very much 0:03:57.360 --> 0:03:59.440 in the air. That's the third leg of the stool, 0:03:59.480 --> 0:04:02.480 those fent null related tariffs. Remember, of course, he already 0:04:02.480 --> 0:04:04.880 has tariffs in place on China that twenty percent rate. 0:04:05.120 --> 0:04:09.480 Whether that's adjusted or added to by the reciprocal rate 0:04:09.520 --> 0:04:13.160 that presumably will include China to some extent, we don't know. 0:04:13.520 --> 0:04:17.440 But right now Trump himself is an avowed believer of tariffs. 0:04:17.480 --> 0:04:19.760 Markets have been sort of betting that he would use 0:04:19.760 --> 0:04:23.200 it more as a negotiating tool than a firm policy outcome. 0:04:23.520 --> 0:04:25.880 I think it's pretty clear that Donald Trump wants tariffs 0:04:25.920 --> 0:04:27.640 a big part of the equation, in part because they 0:04:27.640 --> 0:04:29.640 want to book the revenue from it, as they have 0:04:29.760 --> 0:04:32.880 these talks on Capitol Hill towards a reconciliation package to 0:04:32.920 --> 0:04:35.919 extend those Trump tax cuts and enact other tax cuts 0:04:36.000 --> 0:04:38.080 that he wants. So Trump wants to shift the revenue 0:04:38.080 --> 0:04:40.880 base partially to tariffs. He thinks that sounds better. He 0:04:40.880 --> 0:04:42.760 thinks he can sell it better. He thinks it prevents 0:04:43.120 --> 0:04:45.880 or prevents sort of industries from moving away and can 0:04:45.920 --> 0:04:49.320 help rekindle things like the auto sector and steel industry. 0:04:49.720 --> 0:04:52.560 The industry groups themselves are just much much more mixed, 0:04:52.680 --> 0:04:56.240 very nervous about this. Remember, of course, many American manufacturers, 0:04:56.279 --> 0:04:59.120 for instance, rely on important materials as part of their 0:04:59.120 --> 0:05:01.760 own supply chains. They'll be hit by this as well 0:05:01.760 --> 0:05:04.320 if these start going pretty widespread. And of course, the 0:05:04.360 --> 0:05:05.560 one thing we don't know is we just don't know 0:05:05.560 --> 0:05:07.280 what the number is going to be, right Like, if 0:05:07.279 --> 0:05:10.440 he comes out and says five percent or ten percent, 0:05:11.279 --> 0:05:14.040 you know, versus a twenty five on a bunch of countries, right, 0:05:14.040 --> 0:05:15.960 that's going to be such a big difference. We just 0:05:16.000 --> 0:05:19.280 have no indication right now what that sort of reciprocal 0:05:19.360 --> 0:05:22.719 number will be. But he's talked about sort of bigger 0:05:22.760 --> 0:05:24.720 numbers when he has he's about it. For instance, he's 0:05:24.720 --> 0:05:27.719 talked about a twenty percent viat tax in Europe that 0:05:27.720 --> 0:05:29.320 he's going to count as a tariff. Well, if he 0:05:29.360 --> 0:05:31.640 counts that dollar for dollar and we start looking at 0:05:31.640 --> 0:05:33.560 that twenty five percent or something like that in Europe, 0:05:33.600 --> 0:05:36.000 that's that's a big number. But we just simply don't know. 0:05:36.160 --> 0:05:37.719 I mean, well we ever know the math, Josh? 0:05:37.760 --> 0:05:39.480 And the only reason I ask is, as you note 0:05:39.480 --> 0:05:43.039 in your article, you know, what the president does around 0:05:43.080 --> 0:05:46.600 tariffs in particular, policy in general can be so fluid, 0:05:47.040 --> 0:05:49.279 So like, will we ever really know the math about 0:05:49.360 --> 0:05:52.200 tariffs versus tax revenue? I mean, obviously tax revenue would 0:05:52.200 --> 0:05:54.560 be something passed through Congress and they'll be rules and stuff. 0:05:54.720 --> 0:05:56.200 But when it comes to tariffs, I mean, he can 0:05:56.240 --> 0:05:58.919 impose more pull back like it's hard. 0:05:58.720 --> 0:06:04.400 Right totally, And they're making these numbers up essentially, right, 0:06:04.440 --> 0:06:06.720 like they're counting things that are terrorists as well as 0:06:06.720 --> 0:06:09.360 non tariff barriers. So there's an eye of the beholder 0:06:09.400 --> 0:06:12.080 factor to this. Whatever Trump decides to count in his math, 0:06:12.160 --> 0:06:14.240 they're going to count. So I think that's important to 0:06:14.640 --> 0:06:16.640 sort of keep in mind. He's also made clear that 0:06:16.680 --> 0:06:18.760 he can roll these things back, so you know, we 0:06:18.800 --> 0:06:22.039 saw that twice now with the Mexicans and Canadians, once 0:06:22.120 --> 0:06:24.279 a one month deferral and then another one a sort 0:06:24.279 --> 0:06:26.839 of clawback for a month. And so there's also the 0:06:26.839 --> 0:06:29.440 potential that some of these things could be enacted or 0:06:29.480 --> 0:06:32.800 announced on the second maybe enacted immediately and then rolled 0:06:32.800 --> 0:06:35.880 back potentially if other countries respond with lowering tariffs of 0:06:35.920 --> 0:06:38.360 their own, or we could have an announcement where they're 0:06:38.400 --> 0:06:42.880 announced but not immediately implemented, and then people can negotiate 0:06:42.920 --> 0:06:45.640 presumably in that interim period. You know, it's just we 0:06:45.680 --> 0:06:47.960 don't know. But that long leg time factor we have 0:06:48.080 --> 0:06:50.800 been there before was stealing aluminum and then resolved as 0:06:50.880 --> 0:06:53.200 they went in as scheduled. No one got an exemption, 0:06:53.320 --> 0:06:55.640 So people should not hold their breath necessarily. That a 0:06:55.680 --> 0:06:58.880 long implementation means that there's a window for some grand bargain. 0:06:59.000 --> 0:07:03.520 Are there certain geographic regions that are more likely to 0:07:03.520 --> 0:07:05.920 be rolled back or could be more temporary. I mean 0:07:06.000 --> 0:07:08.839 Mexico in Canada the off ramp Josh for this is 0:07:08.880 --> 0:07:11.480 related to fentanyl. The other tariffs that the President has 0:07:11.480 --> 0:07:14.320 announced don't necessarily have those off ramps. 0:07:15.640 --> 0:07:18.040 Yeah. I think he wants countries to announce the lowering 0:07:18.080 --> 0:07:20.720 of their own tariffs, and we'll see whether they do that. 0:07:20.880 --> 0:07:23.800 Mexico has taken a much more sort of muted approach 0:07:23.800 --> 0:07:26.240 in their negotiations with that. There's been sort of positive 0:07:26.240 --> 0:07:29.200 signs that the administration likes that they've got a new 0:07:29.240 --> 0:07:31.560 prime minister in Canada. Of course, yesterday called a general 0:07:31.600 --> 0:07:33.640 election that could lead to yet another new prime minister 0:07:33.720 --> 0:07:35.640 in Canada in a month's time. So I think that 0:07:35.760 --> 0:07:39.320 you know TVD on that one. Whether the Europeans announced 0:07:39.320 --> 0:07:42.640 some sort of terror production deal in the EU, I 0:07:42.680 --> 0:07:45.080 think really remains the case. He keeps talking about the EU, 0:07:45.440 --> 0:07:47.800 but the countries that are really sort of on him 0:07:47.920 --> 0:07:50.200 are countries that trade a lot with the US, that 0:07:50.320 --> 0:07:53.480 have goods deficits in trade, or that the US as 0:07:53.480 --> 0:07:56.480 a trade deficit of goods. That's an important one because 0:07:56.480 --> 0:07:58.880 he doesn't tend to count services trade. It's only goods 0:07:58.920 --> 0:08:01.880 trade typically that he count. And so by definition, if 0:08:01.920 --> 0:08:04.280 you're hitting the people that you have big trade relationships with, 0:08:04.320 --> 0:08:06.120 you're hitting the countries that you tend to be on 0:08:06.160 --> 0:08:08.760 better terms with. Usually. Of course, there's big exceptions to that, 0:08:08.840 --> 0:08:11.960 chiefly China. But that's what's sort of rattling things right 0:08:11.960 --> 0:08:14.200 now is the ones that seem to be in the 0:08:14.200 --> 0:08:17.600 line of fire right include many allies like Canada, like 0:08:17.640 --> 0:08:20.240 the EU, like the Japanese, like the South Koreans. 0:08:20.480 --> 0:08:23.320 Josh one last question and just about thirty seconds here, 0:08:23.360 --> 0:08:25.320 but the White Houses argue that tariffs will make the 0:08:25.360 --> 0:08:28.280 US more competitive a tract for an investment. We've seen 0:08:28.560 --> 0:08:32.080 some announcements from global companies around that pledges of money 0:08:32.120 --> 0:08:35.080 to be spent in the US. Pledges mean exactly what 0:08:35.320 --> 0:08:39.239 it's promises, but not necessarily reality. I mean, does tariffs 0:08:39.440 --> 0:08:41.959 lead to more investment into a country just quickly? 0:08:42.679 --> 0:08:45.640 So far, there have been announcements of investment that you 0:08:45.720 --> 0:08:48.920 could link to the threat of tariffs. Whether those investments 0:08:48.920 --> 0:08:53.360 materialize remains to be seen, and of course the other 0:08:53.440 --> 0:08:55.360 side of that coin also remains to be seen. In 0:08:55.360 --> 0:08:57.959 other words, companies might announce their coming, but other ones 0:08:58.080 --> 0:08:59.679 might not be able to survive the tariffs and they 0:08:59.679 --> 0:09:01.240 have to shop. 0:09:00.640 --> 0:09:01.520 All right, good stuff. 0:09:01.800 --> 0:09:04.000 Obviously one of our big stories, if not our big story. 0:09:04.120 --> 0:09:06.640 Certainly the markets are watching today. Josh, thank you so much, 0:09:06.720 --> 0:09:09.360 Josh wein Grove. He has senior White House correspondent Bloomberg 0:09:09.440 --> 0:09:10.960 News there in our DC bureau. 0:09:11.559 --> 0:09:15.120 You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us 0:09:15.200 --> 0:09:18.640 live weekday afternoons from two to five pm Eastern. Listen 0:09:18.679 --> 0:09:22.199 on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app, 0:09:22.360 --> 0:09:24.200 or watch us live on YouTube. 0:09:25.040 --> 0:09:27.720 At the beginning of the year, our Boomberg Opinions team 0:09:27.760 --> 0:09:30.800 featured a column and Tim noted crypto could go rogue. 0:09:30.840 --> 0:09:33.280 At twenty twenty five, again it was a bunch of 0:09:33.320 --> 0:09:36.120 opinion writers like weighing in. They noted that when Donald 0:09:36.160 --> 0:09:37.760 Trump returned to the White House, which of course we 0:09:37.800 --> 0:09:41.320 know he did, digital currencies may either go mainstream or 0:09:41.600 --> 0:09:43.920 till they could be brought down by a cast of villain. 0:09:44.160 --> 0:09:46.920 We haven't seen him brought down yet. Our next guest 0:09:47.000 --> 0:09:50.120 company provides tools for ferreting out crypto related crimes. Joining 0:09:50.200 --> 0:09:54.120 us as Marianna Maria Haustova, chief operating officer at the 0:09:54.160 --> 0:09:58.720 Blockchain Analytics from Crystal Intelligence. She joins us from Dubai. Marina, 0:09:58.800 --> 0:10:02.199 good to have you on the program this afternoon. What 0:10:02.320 --> 0:10:07.240 are you seeing at Crystal Intelligence when it comes to analytics, 0:10:07.360 --> 0:10:10.520 who's using the platform and who in your view, is 0:10:10.679 --> 0:10:13.160 using crypto for illicit purposes? 0:10:14.240 --> 0:10:16.840 Oh, thank you so much, heirs for having me today. 0:10:17.000 --> 0:10:18.120 I'm happy to be here. 0:10:18.760 --> 0:10:18.960 Yeah. 0:10:19.040 --> 0:10:23.320 Well, our customers are coming from two sides, from financial 0:10:23.360 --> 0:10:27.079 institutions and institutions care about what kind of assets do 0:10:27.160 --> 0:10:30.680 they accept as payments, so for compliance teams, and another 0:10:31.160 --> 0:10:33.960 cohort of our customers are governmental bodies and law enforcement 0:10:34.000 --> 0:10:38.439 agencies around the world, who, of course fight crime. And 0:10:38.720 --> 0:10:43.600 when we talk about who uses that, of course, right now, 0:10:43.720 --> 0:10:46.839 crypt steel stays as one of the avenues, you know. 0:10:47.000 --> 0:10:49.199 So one of the methods for money lounder is to 0:10:49.360 --> 0:10:51.800 try to hide money, and especially for those type of 0:10:51.880 --> 0:10:57.600 criminals who are trying to attack or hack particular financial institutions, 0:10:57.640 --> 0:11:01.040 steal their crypto funds and then try to go away 0:11:01.080 --> 0:11:04.040 with them. So yeah, this is the usual case that 0:11:04.080 --> 0:11:04.520 we're doing with. 0:11:04.840 --> 0:11:07.839 Well, whatever I bring up to crypto folks that you know, 0:11:07.960 --> 0:11:12.559 the one criticism of cryptocurrency is that it can be 0:11:12.679 --> 0:11:15.480 used for illicted purposes. They always push back against me 0:11:15.559 --> 0:11:18.840 and say, hey, criminals have been using cash since cash 0:11:19.000 --> 0:11:24.160 was around for money laundering for illicit purposes. This is 0:11:24.240 --> 0:11:28.560 no different. It's actually more easy to track crypto because 0:11:28.559 --> 0:11:30.679 of the blockchain. Depending on what we're talking about. We 0:11:30.760 --> 0:11:33.920 should note not all crypto is the same. But in 0:11:34.040 --> 0:11:36.079 your view, how do you take that criticism? 0:11:39.520 --> 0:11:43.480 Well, to me, cryptocurrency is transparent and vie DeVault and 0:11:43.679 --> 0:11:45.959 cash is not so much. So that's why I'm here 0:11:46.000 --> 0:11:49.559 in this industry. And yeah, that's what we've seen for many, 0:11:49.640 --> 0:11:54.800 many years. Basically, the blockchain technology enables us to track 0:11:55.120 --> 0:11:57.600 through all the movements to understand, you know, what actors 0:11:57.720 --> 0:12:01.280 are involved in the particular transactions. So to me, the 0:12:01.320 --> 0:12:05.000 transparency that we're bringing is just something incomparable to what 0:12:05.160 --> 0:12:09.120 is possible to achieve through traditional financial methods. And yeah, 0:12:09.280 --> 0:12:11.760 a lot of possibilities. We are, of course have to 0:12:11.800 --> 0:12:15.120 compete to the with the bad actress because they're also 0:12:15.240 --> 0:12:18.079 like very inventive. We work twenty for seven on like 0:12:18.840 --> 0:12:21.640 combating crime, and they work twenty for seven trying to 0:12:21.760 --> 0:12:22.680 you know, outrace us. 0:12:23.679 --> 0:12:26.199 You know, Marina, we have definitely talked about and covered 0:12:26.200 --> 0:12:29.240 a lot here at Bloomberg. You know, crypto crimes or 0:12:29.280 --> 0:12:32.439 crypto related crimes. What are the most common types of 0:12:32.520 --> 0:12:35.600 crypto related crimes and who happens to do them the most? 0:12:35.760 --> 0:12:37.960 I mean, what if Carol were to do a crime, 0:12:38.440 --> 0:12:40.319 what crime would you recommend for Carol to do? 0:12:41.320 --> 0:12:41.600 I'm just. 0:12:43.800 --> 0:12:44.839 I think hypothetical. 0:12:46.080 --> 0:12:50.120 Yeah, we can take the biggest heighst that happened recently, 0:12:50.720 --> 0:12:54.040 the bigger cryptocurrency exchange was hacked and the billions was 0:12:54.080 --> 0:12:59.839 still and the big, big team and we expect that 0:13:00.040 --> 0:13:02.520 these team is very much connected with North Korea, has 0:13:02.600 --> 0:13:05.959 been actually working on these cases to make it happen 0:13:06.400 --> 0:13:08.960 for many many months until they found the right moment 0:13:09.040 --> 0:13:12.400 for that. So then what we see is a huge 0:13:12.480 --> 0:13:16.680 team trying to launder these funds. So they are constantly 0:13:16.800 --> 0:13:21.920 trying to find locations through which these money can be digitalized, right, 0:13:23.120 --> 0:13:26.440 can be moved around so that they don't get frozen 0:13:27.040 --> 0:13:31.520 by financial institutions following regulations and having an ability, you know, 0:13:31.600 --> 0:13:34.280 to stop this fund or free this funds. So for 0:13:34.360 --> 0:13:36.640 the last like two or three weeks that we are 0:13:37.480 --> 0:13:40.520 actually tracking this particular case along with the rest of 0:13:40.600 --> 0:13:44.960 the industry. Yeah, it has been a very very yeah, 0:13:45.200 --> 0:13:47.960 a very dramatic case, taking a lot of resources from us, 0:13:48.920 --> 0:13:52.480 And yeah, I don't think it's the last case of 0:13:52.600 --> 0:13:54.959 such kind that we're going to see. So a lot 0:13:55.040 --> 0:13:58.600 of work for us to do and a lot more 0:13:58.760 --> 0:14:02.480 actually yet to come, and we don't know yet, you 0:14:02.559 --> 0:14:04.880 know what kind of new trends are there in development 0:14:05.200 --> 0:14:08.199 because changes so fast and the regulations are not so 0:14:08.400 --> 0:14:12.040 fast to define what actually, you know, where actually everyone 0:14:12.080 --> 0:14:15.160 should look at at this particular moment, We're. 0:14:15.040 --> 0:14:17.800 Gonna have to leave it there. Marina Hastova, chief operating 0:14:17.840 --> 0:14:20.479 officer at the blockchain analytics firm Crystal Intelligence. 0:14:22.760 --> 0:14:26.520 This is the Bloomberg Business Week Podcast. Listen live each 0:14:26.560 --> 0:14:29.240 weekday starting at two pm Eastern up on Apple car 0:14:29.360 --> 0:14:32.120 Play and the Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. 0:14:32.240 --> 0:14:34.960 You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our 0:14:35.040 --> 0:14:39.320 flagship New York station, Just Say Alexa played Bloomberg eleven thirty. 0:14:41.000 --> 0:14:43.840 News in the World of Weight Loss Today, Carol Masser 0:14:43.920 --> 0:14:47.240 no one nor This has agreed to pay United Laboratories 0:14:47.320 --> 0:14:51.520 International Holdings as much as two billion dollars for next 0:14:51.600 --> 0:14:54.400 gen OBCD drug. It's the Danish of ozembic maker's latest 0:14:54.440 --> 0:14:58.840 move to refill its pipeline of experimental treatments. Also last week, 0:14:58.920 --> 0:15:02.000 Eli Lilly again selling it's blockbuster weight loss and diabetes 0:15:02.080 --> 0:15:04.320 drug Munjaro in India. It's a country that has the 0:15:04.360 --> 0:15:07.000 world's third largest number of obese people. 0:15:07.800 --> 0:15:10.920 We continue to see this marketplace grow expand, and we 0:15:11.000 --> 0:15:13.720 continue to see each of these major drug players look 0:15:13.840 --> 0:15:18.160 for their next offering. When it comes to GLP one. 0:15:18.640 --> 0:15:22.080 We do talk about these weight loss drugs an awful lot, 0:15:22.160 --> 0:15:24.960 especially from a business perspective. Investors have really sent shares 0:15:25.000 --> 0:15:28.119 of these companies higher than lower. There's some been some volatility, 0:15:28.720 --> 0:15:31.520 certainly over the past couple of years. Doctor Sue Dakotis 0:15:31.680 --> 0:15:34.640 is a New York based physician, a Board certified medical internist, 0:15:34.720 --> 0:15:37.080 and a weight loss specialist. She is an attending physician 0:15:37.400 --> 0:15:40.000 at NYU Medical Center, joining us right here in New 0:15:40.080 --> 0:15:40.520 York City. 0:15:40.800 --> 0:15:43.480 Doctor Dakotas, good to have you here on BusinessWeek. 0:15:44.040 --> 0:15:47.080 This is something we are We've been covering NonStop, to 0:15:47.120 --> 0:15:48.840 be quite honest, over the last two years. 0:15:48.920 --> 0:15:51.000 We have a reporter that's devoted to it. 0:15:51.600 --> 0:15:56.120 To really understand the offerings, the nuances between the different drugs, 0:15:57.040 --> 0:15:59.360 and the expansion as we continue to see new offerings 0:15:59.440 --> 0:16:01.960 come out. Tell us about from your perspective what you've 0:16:02.000 --> 0:16:03.800 seen over the last couple of years in terms of 0:16:03.880 --> 0:16:07.600 the uptick in the usage and whether or not it 0:16:07.760 --> 0:16:11.320 really is a significant change when it comes to treating 0:16:11.440 --> 0:16:14.680 weight loss and actually making people healthier in the longer term. 0:16:15.840 --> 0:16:17.560 Well, in my practice in New York City, I have 0:16:17.680 --> 0:16:21.080 had tremendous results in my patient population with using these 0:16:21.200 --> 0:16:24.440 new GLP one drugs, and I've used just about all 0:16:24.480 --> 0:16:27.240 of the ones that are available, and I'm really excited 0:16:27.280 --> 0:16:31.760 about the new drugs that are coming out. So, as 0:16:31.840 --> 0:16:35.360 you know, there's something called Cagrisima that Nova Nordisk is 0:16:35.400 --> 0:16:37.200 going to come out with, which is a new drug 0:16:37.280 --> 0:16:41.560 called cagrilinotide that they are combining with the ozepic. The 0:16:41.600 --> 0:16:46.320 semi glue tide and reddititruetide is coming out from Lily 0:16:46.760 --> 0:16:50.480 and that actually is a three receptor drug. So what 0:16:50.640 --> 0:16:53.640 we see is that these drugs get more sophisticated and 0:16:53.720 --> 0:16:56.800 affect more receptors, and I think more patients are going 0:16:56.840 --> 0:16:59.280 to have good results. The problems that we have is 0:16:59.360 --> 0:17:02.080 semiglue tied in the beginning before we had access to 0:17:02.200 --> 0:17:06.920 Manjarro trezepetide, is that many very overweight patients hit the wall, 0:17:07.400 --> 0:17:10.160 meaning they couldn't lose weight after a certain period of time, 0:17:10.200 --> 0:17:13.240 and that was very frustrating. And we found that we're trezepetite, 0:17:13.280 --> 0:17:16.560 being that we're hitting a second receptor, patients actually lost 0:17:16.640 --> 0:17:19.840 more fat and weight loss continued. And I look forward 0:17:19.880 --> 0:17:22.200 to that with some of the new drugs that we have, 0:17:22.720 --> 0:17:24.160 so I think we're going to be able to reach 0:17:24.320 --> 0:17:28.040 larger numbers of patients. But what I always hear is 0:17:28.119 --> 0:17:31.320 so many people are saying these are lifetime drugs, meaning 0:17:31.400 --> 0:17:33.080 you have to be on this for a lifetime. I 0:17:33.240 --> 0:17:36.320 really disagree. And my practice in New York City, I've 0:17:36.359 --> 0:17:38.920 been able to get most of my patients off these 0:17:39.000 --> 0:17:41.920 drugs if they're not diabetics. And I think a lot 0:17:41.960 --> 0:17:44.680 of times we're missing the point with these drugs. People 0:17:44.840 --> 0:17:47.840 know that they're appetite suppressants. They also know that they're 0:17:47.920 --> 0:17:52.000 great to stabilize insulin and that they're great to reverse 0:17:52.080 --> 0:17:55.320 insulin resistance, and that's all they're thinking about, and then 0:17:55.359 --> 0:17:58.200 the person loses weight and then they go off the 0:17:58.280 --> 0:18:01.480 drugs sometimes abruptly or they stay on it forever. What 0:18:01.640 --> 0:18:03.600 I do in my practice is I use a body 0:18:03.680 --> 0:18:07.960 composition skit. Okay, so I'm closely monitoring people's body fat 0:18:08.400 --> 0:18:11.159 and that's really the key. I think if we can 0:18:11.240 --> 0:18:14.359 get that body fat down into this sweet spot, I 0:18:14.440 --> 0:18:17.359 think that's where we get the long term health effects 0:18:17.400 --> 0:18:20.480 that everyone is talking about. So that's where we're getting 0:18:20.520 --> 0:18:24.080 the huge anti inflammatory effect. That's where we're having the 0:18:24.160 --> 0:18:29.760 appetite regulatory system really being rebooted on a permanent basis, 0:18:29.840 --> 0:18:32.720 so that person doesn't crave the foods they used to crave, 0:18:33.119 --> 0:18:33.480 and they. 0:18:33.440 --> 0:18:34.240 Have a much. 0:18:35.560 --> 0:18:39.320 They have a lesser appetite long term, it's really really important. 0:18:39.560 --> 0:18:42.600 Are you seeing this doctor in your office? Combined with 0:18:43.000 --> 0:18:47.320 other methods of losing weight, is important that your patients 0:18:47.400 --> 0:18:49.960 also remain active or get active. 0:18:51.560 --> 0:18:55.520 Shot enough well, everyone, we always start out with them. 0:18:55.600 --> 0:18:58.000 We know our patients well, taking a really good history. 0:18:59.160 --> 0:19:03.200 Whatever you're eating, it's been what is your lifestyle like 0:19:03.760 --> 0:19:06.159 and being practicing in New York City. Many patients are 0:19:06.160 --> 0:19:09.320 pretty sophisticated, you know, they already have a pretty good lifestyle. 0:19:10.359 --> 0:19:14.280 They may not come into the office very very obese. 0:19:14.359 --> 0:19:18.119 They may be barely overweight, or their BMI, which you 0:19:18.200 --> 0:19:21.360 know is a heightened weight parameter, maybe normal, but their 0:19:21.440 --> 0:19:23.359 body fat is higher than they'd like it to be. 0:19:23.720 --> 0:19:26.200 And as they get older, you know, maybe their menopausal, 0:19:26.320 --> 0:19:29.719 they're getting into middle age, they find that their body 0:19:29.800 --> 0:19:33.720 has changed. They don't feel as good, They're clothes fit differently, 0:19:34.080 --> 0:19:36.679 they don't get as much out of exercise that they 0:19:36.840 --> 0:19:40.120 used to. So then we really we really help those 0:19:40.200 --> 0:19:42.520 people reach an optimal state of health by getting body 0:19:42.600 --> 0:19:46.120 fat down. But yes, of course diet and exercise is important. 0:19:46.480 --> 0:19:49.520 But when you're insulin resistant, when you have hormonal problems, 0:19:49.560 --> 0:19:53.120 there are other genetic and environmental issues that we're hearing 0:19:53.200 --> 0:19:56.320 about so much now, aren't we all these environmental things 0:19:56.320 --> 0:20:00.600 that were affecting our metabolism so many people you're already 0:20:00.880 --> 0:20:03.320 hearing to a good lifestyle. I just need that ex 0:20:03.400 --> 0:20:03.800 for help. 0:20:03.880 --> 0:20:05.560 I'm getting hungry, That's what I'm gonna say. 0:20:07.240 --> 0:20:10.040 I thought I sastomic and I'm like, I'm gurgling over here, 0:20:10.160 --> 0:20:10.960 and I'm kind of hungry. 0:20:11.680 --> 0:20:11.760 Now. 0:20:11.840 --> 0:20:13.880 What I want to ask you, though, is I've seen 0:20:13.920 --> 0:20:15.920 people who get on it lose a lot of weight, 0:20:16.440 --> 0:20:19.399 but they also lose a lot of muscle mass, and 0:20:19.480 --> 0:20:21.760 I'm kind of amazed by that. I've seen them where 0:20:21.800 --> 0:20:24.520 they their legs are very thin, like all their muscle 0:20:24.640 --> 0:20:26.640 is gone, which can't be a good thing. 0:20:27.720 --> 0:20:30.639 Well, it gets back to that question that i'm you know, 0:20:30.720 --> 0:20:33.240 the issue here is what is their body fat? Is 0:20:33.320 --> 0:20:37.400 anybody monitoring that? So if the patient is not monitored carefully, 0:20:37.720 --> 0:20:41.280 so they're not really given diatritic nutritional support because as 0:20:41.359 --> 0:20:44.560