1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: Welcomed Unobscured, a production of I Heart Radio and Aaron Minkey. 2 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:09,360 Speaker 1: Our final guest for Unobscured Season three is Paul Beg. 3 00:00:09,640 --> 00:00:12,680 Speaker 1: When he published Jack the Ripper The Uncensored Facts in 4 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 1: he set a new standard for serious historical writing about 5 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: the Whitechapel murders and challenged writers and investigators to bring 6 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:24,200 Speaker 1: a more complete and critical eye to the case. Fortunately 7 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:26,639 Speaker 1: for all of us, Paul Beg continued to work in 8 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:29,760 Speaker 1: that mold. With each new book, Paul Beg has commanded 9 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:33,800 Speaker 1: the attention of interested readers and professional historians alike. Paul 10 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:36,199 Speaker 1: has worked solo as well as with other writers to 11 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:39,640 Speaker 1: publish books like Jack the Ripper, The Definitive History, The 12 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 1: Complete Jack the Ripper A to Z and recently Jack 13 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:46,240 Speaker 1: the Ripper The Forgotten Victims, and along the way, Paul's 14 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:50,080 Speaker 1: books have demonstrated to interested readers like Adam would, for instance, 15 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:53,479 Speaker 1: what had been missing from the discussion without his comprehensive 16 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:57,760 Speaker 1: and rigorous devotion to historical detail. His collaborative spirits and 17 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:00,400 Speaker 1: his dedication to primary sources have made at him a 18 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 1: universally respected authority on the history and the facts of 19 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:06,880 Speaker 1: the case. Researcher Karl Nellis asked Paul to take us 20 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:08,959 Speaker 1: back to how it all began for him, and so 21 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:11,480 Speaker 1: that's how it will all begin for us. This is 22 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:15,639 Speaker 1: the Unobscured Interview series for season three. I'm Aaron Minky. 23 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 1: I started off investigating historical mysteries of one sort or another, 24 00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 1: and it was coming to the centenary of the Jack 25 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:30,800 Speaker 1: the Ripper murders, and I had always been interested in 26 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 1: Jack the Ripper, and I bought every book that I 27 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:38,479 Speaker 1: could find at that time, and nobody had really done 28 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 1: a history of who saw what, where and when, which 29 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:47,680 Speaker 1: I suppose is part of my journalistic background, and so 30 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:52,600 Speaker 1: I decided to write a book that didn't have anything 31 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 1: to do with suspects, but just looked at the crimes. 32 00:01:56,800 --> 00:02:00,200 Speaker 1: And that book led to another book and an other 33 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:04,560 Speaker 1: one after that, and so before I knew it, I 34 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 1: was spending probably the best part of my life research 35 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:12,000 Speaker 1: in Jack the Ripple, which in a way I regret 36 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:17,000 Speaker 1: because I would like to have researched something infinitely more important. 37 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:22,120 Speaker 1: But at the same time, uh, Jack the Ripper is 38 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:29,079 Speaker 1: is becomes acutely interesting subject too to research and write about. 39 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:35,280 Speaker 1: Mm hmm, well, I can say, for my own part, 40 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:39,880 Speaker 1: I'm really grateful for the historical approach that you've taken, 41 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:43,920 Speaker 1: uh and the way that you have researched and written 42 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:48,600 Speaker 1: about in Whitechapel, and you know so for for this program, 43 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:53,520 Speaker 1: we've been consulting your definitive history the facts, and I've 44 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:57,079 Speaker 1: especially appreciated the perspective that you take in the Forgotten Victims. 45 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:02,799 Speaker 1: And we hope that listeners interested in thoughtful, detailed work 46 00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:05,840 Speaker 1: we'll seek out your books and maybe as a as 47 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 1: a way into that. As a historian, how would you 48 00:03:08,919 --> 00:03:13,520 Speaker 1: describe your historical approach. You mentioned a history of the 49 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:17,359 Speaker 1: crimes rather than focusing on the suspect, But if you 50 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:21,120 Speaker 1: would put yourself in the context of other history writing, 51 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:24,280 Speaker 1: what kind of is your approach as a writer of 52 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:30,239 Speaker 1: these histories. Well, I think it's important to just establish 53 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 1: those basic facts as I as I mentioned earlier, the 54 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 1: very basic stuff of who saw, what, where, when and 55 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:43,480 Speaker 1: why that every good story should have, and very often, 56 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:49,280 Speaker 1: particularly in the history of something like crime, that's one 57 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:53,640 Speaker 1: thing that people don't do. They are they will describe 58 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 1: the crime, but they're real interest is in the suspect. 59 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:02,600 Speaker 1: And I think in historical crime, the great thing about 60 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:08,560 Speaker 1: it is that it it it enables you to see 61 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:15,080 Speaker 1: people doing normal things at the time a murderer is committed. 62 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 1: So it's one of the few ways that you actually 63 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:26,119 Speaker 1: have a chance to see historically people doing ordinary things, 64 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 1: which historians don't normally bother to look at, and consequently 65 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:34,480 Speaker 1: we don't find out of that. So in kind of 66 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:40,279 Speaker 1: general terms, how would you describe that ordinary life for 67 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:44,200 Speaker 1: most people in the East End of London that we 68 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:47,120 Speaker 1: get a glimpse of when we look at and almost 69 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 1: through this series of horrific crimes and then see the 70 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:55,440 Speaker 1: ordinary life that was happening around it. What do we see? 71 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 1: What do we see there? Well, then we see, we 72 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 1: see we see an awful lot actually, uh, but it's 73 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:06,480 Speaker 1: a very hard life that the people were living at 74 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:10,400 Speaker 1: that time, particularly in the East End, and so it 75 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:18,920 Speaker 1: was uh, it was, it was tough. But but an 76 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:23,600 Speaker 1: event like a murder captures the witnesses and the investigators 77 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:26,880 Speaker 1: in that moment of time going about their day to 78 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 1: day lives, and there things mains. As I said, mainstream 79 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 1: histories don't often tell you, and that many people probably 80 00:05:36,279 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 1: probably wouldn't choose to read even if historians did. For example, 81 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 1: there were lots of horses, lots of them. So what 82 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:49,160 Speaker 1: did you do if your horse was injured in an 83 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 1: accident or if it dropped dead in the street? And 84 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:58,919 Speaker 1: how dirty were those streets are washed with horse urine 85 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:03,240 Speaker 1: and worse? And what was it really like to travel 86 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:06,400 Speaker 1: in a handsome cab, rocking along like a ship tossed 87 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:10,600 Speaker 1: in a storm called in winter, hot in summer? And 88 00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:13,320 Speaker 1: then of course if you opened the window in the 89 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:17,840 Speaker 1: handsome cab because it was getting very hot, the horses 90 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:20,839 Speaker 1: hooves flicked the mess from the straight back into the cab, 91 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:27,200 Speaker 1: which brings us back two horses. And so we you know, 92 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:30,240 Speaker 1: all of that is sort of stuff that you don't 93 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:33,360 Speaker 1: normally find out about. Even the Sherlock Holmes story you have. 94 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 1: You have homes bowling along in a handsome cab, but 95 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 1: we don't actually get told what it was really like. 96 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:44,600 Speaker 1: And we don't have doss houses anymore. People don't go 97 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:47,840 Speaker 1: into work into the workhouse. We buy our milk from 98 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:52,560 Speaker 1: a supermarket, not from a dedicated milk shop. We carry 99 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 1: a torch to see in the dark, not an oil lamp. 100 00:06:56,320 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 1: And we don't have music calls, and we don't have clubs. 101 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 1: Every few yards. Um, So a murderer is a a 102 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 1: terrible thing, but it tells us about ordinary people going 103 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:17,080 Speaker 1: to the who have to go into the workhouse and 104 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:19,680 Speaker 1: who have to go into a doss house. And we 105 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 1: can find out a little bit of what it was 106 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:27,800 Speaker 1: like from people who we're writing at the time, and 107 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 1: we we can we can collect that information together. But 108 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 1: it there aren't that many books that go out and 109 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 1: tell you these things, and when they do, it can 110 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:46,240 Speaker 1: be it does can sometimes not have that level of 111 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 1: interest that the murder story has. It doesn't have that 112 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:57,160 Speaker 1: frision of drama attached to it. So when when you're 113 00:07:57,200 --> 00:08:00,720 Speaker 1: discovering how people lived and how their world fund should 114 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 1: that can be really interesting when when it's attached to 115 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:12,760 Speaker 1: a murder, because very often in some small way those things. Uh, 116 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:20,560 Speaker 1: knowing about those things could be relevant. Two understanding the 117 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 1: murder itself and perhaps knowing who the murderer was. M hm, 118 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 1: m hm. For a little more context, Um, the Ripper 119 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:37,960 Speaker 1: murders weren't the only kinds of violent crime in London's 120 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:41,880 Speaker 1: East End. They weren't the only killings in that year, 121 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:45,480 Speaker 1: and there was enough violent crime on record in the 122 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 1: neighborhood throughout the eighties that we can get a more 123 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:54,640 Speaker 1: textured picture. How violent was Whitechapel and what was the 124 00:08:54,679 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 1: general understanding of that violence among contemporary observers, writer is, 125 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:02,200 Speaker 1: and what do we know about how the people in 126 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 1: the neighborhood of Whitechapel, or Whopping or around bethnal green Um, 127 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 1: what did they think of the violence in their neighborhoods Well, 128 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:19,240 Speaker 1: I think it's again it's one of those things that 129 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:26,200 Speaker 1: is somewhat difficult to to pinpoint what the people themselves 130 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 1: actually thought. What we get a lot of is what 131 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 1: people coming from outside the area thought of it. So 132 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:40,600 Speaker 1: you have lots of reasonably well off middle class people 133 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:45,880 Speaker 1: commenting on the horrors that they saw and witnessed in 134 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:50,640 Speaker 1: the East End, but not a great deal of what 135 00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:55,960 Speaker 1: people who lived there actually experienced. The facts and figures 136 00:09:55,960 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 1: suggest that there weren't very many murders, surprisingly in the 137 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:03,760 Speaker 1: East End of London, and in fact, I think, off 138 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:06,720 Speaker 1: the top of my head, I mean, for for the period, 139 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:10,880 Speaker 1: most of the murders that were committed there with the 140 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:13,600 Speaker 1: were the jack the Ripper murders. There weren't very many 141 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:18,720 Speaker 1: other than those. As for the violence of the area, well, 142 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:26,560 Speaker 1: that's a different thing altogether, and it does that there 143 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:31,480 Speaker 1: does seem to have been a considerable amount of violence, 144 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 1: and very nasty violence of the sort that would make 145 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:41,760 Speaker 1: the top of the news today if it happened. Um 146 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:44,600 Speaker 1: and and things were happening there. I was just reading 147 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:50,800 Speaker 1: recently about an altercation that took place. Uh. And the 148 00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 1: man through an oil lamp at at somebody, and although 149 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:04,440 Speaker 1: he wasn't intending to that person, he missed h and 150 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 1: he hit the wall behind him, and the and the 151 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:12,040 Speaker 1: oil lamp shattered and it burst into flame, and the 152 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:16,079 Speaker 1: person was caught splattered with the oil from the lamp 153 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:20,640 Speaker 1: and and was burned quite badly. And of course there 154 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 1: was an awful lot of of domestic violence going on. 155 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:33,120 Speaker 1: So one another story told by a policeman called Benjamin Lease, 156 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:37,520 Speaker 1: and he was walking down Dorset Street, uh and suddenly 157 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 1: a knife was thrown from one of the houses and 158 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:48,079 Speaker 1: stuck into some boarding close to him. So, I mean 159 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:51,040 Speaker 1: it possible that you could be walking down the street 160 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:54,559 Speaker 1: and have a knife thrown at you for no reason whatsoever. 161 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:58,120 Speaker 1: M So it was quite it was quite a dangerous place, 162 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 1: and it was known even the police. When you read 163 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:09,800 Speaker 1: the newspapers and the police reports it was it was violent. 164 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:12,960 Speaker 1: But one of the problems is that you get stories 165 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:21,840 Speaker 1: about um sailors coming into Whitechapel from the docks, and 166 00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:25,959 Speaker 1: one such man, Thomas Sadler, for example, was walking down 167 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:31,440 Speaker 1: a street and he was attacked and robbed UM. And 168 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 1: yet other times people are walking around the streets and 169 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:40,360 Speaker 1: they don't see a soul. It would appear that one 170 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 1: of Jack the Ripper's victims, the first one Mary and Nichols, 171 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:49,199 Speaker 1: walked about half a mile without being seen by anybody 172 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:56,000 Speaker 1: as she walked down the main street. M So some 173 00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:58,959 Speaker 1: of the information that you get can be quite conflicting, 174 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:02,959 Speaker 1: but hopefully you will be able over the next years 175 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:08,920 Speaker 1: to be able to learn a lot more MHM. And 176 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:11,920 Speaker 1: and from what I've read, there are some places where 177 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:18,360 Speaker 1: it was especially dangerous to be if you were a policeman. Well, again, 178 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:23,920 Speaker 1: it is a common story that policemen wouldn't venture down 179 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:31,560 Speaker 1: Dorset Street unless they were in pairs. And UM, I 180 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:36,920 Speaker 1: think that I can't find I'm not saying it's not true, 181 00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:40,800 Speaker 1: it's just that I can't find any evidence of that 182 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:46,559 Speaker 1: being the case. And I can read of other areas 183 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:50,400 Speaker 1: outside of the east end, which were known to be 184 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 1: particularly dangerous, and the same thing is said of those streets, 185 00:13:54,080 --> 00:14:01,600 Speaker 1: so it it's it really does dependent. Rsett Street may 186 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:05,079 Speaker 1: have been a dangerous street, but other streets on Flower 187 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 1: and Dean Street and Thrall Street, they were both they 188 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:11,800 Speaker 1: were all just as dangerous to walk down, just as rough. 189 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:15,040 Speaker 1: And it's not said that policemen walked down those streets 190 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:18,280 Speaker 1: in pairs. So I think you have to take certain 191 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:23,360 Speaker 1: later statements with a pinch of salt. Mhm. Would you 192 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:31,360 Speaker 1: would you describe Dorset Street for us? Yes, Dorset Street was. 193 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:34,800 Speaker 1: It was a fairly narrow street. It had a pub 194 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:37,880 Speaker 1: one end and a bigger pub the other end, and 195 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 1: a small pub in the middle, and it was otherwise 196 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 1: pretty much line with with what we're called common lodging 197 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 1: houses or doss houses. There was a little shop there 198 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 1: run by a man called John McCarthy, which was basically 199 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:04,680 Speaker 1: and all grocer's shop, uh, and really nothing about it 200 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 1: to be to be alarmed about. It had started out 201 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:16,400 Speaker 1: its life being known as Datchett Street. That became Dorset Street, 202 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:21,200 Speaker 1: and the locals used to call it Dosset Street because 203 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 1: of the number of doss houses that it contained. And 204 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:29,040 Speaker 1: it was the doss houses which had a really bad 205 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:35,400 Speaker 1: reputation for being places of immorality because not too many 206 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:38,520 Speaker 1: questions were asked if a man and a woman turned 207 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:44,120 Speaker 1: up wanting a bed together. Uh. And they were thought 208 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 1: to be hotbeds of crime and and thievery, and so 209 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 1: they weren't really looked upon very kindly. But in fact 210 00:15:57,120 --> 00:16:01,680 Speaker 1: they were fairly horrible places. But it's specially by today's standards, 211 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:04,800 Speaker 1: but they really were the poor man's hotel. They were 212 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 1: where you went you could buy a bed for the night. Uh. 213 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 1: And it's popularly argued that sometimes some just strung a 214 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:18,520 Speaker 1: rope from one side of the room to the other 215 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:21,720 Speaker 1: and for a penny you could lean on the rope 216 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:25,800 Speaker 1: and go to sleep there. There are photographs of of 217 00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:30,520 Speaker 1: this sort of thing happening, but I think that was 218 00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:37,120 Speaker 1: a fairly uncommon practice. So that, Yeah, the doss houses 219 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:40,640 Speaker 1: were thought to be fairly dangerous, and to some extent 220 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:46,480 Speaker 1: they were, and the that gave Dorset Street a really 221 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:53,080 Speaker 1: bad name, which grew worse over the whereas more murders 222 00:16:53,080 --> 00:17:03,080 Speaker 1: were committed there. MHM. When it comes to policing the 223 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:09,879 Speaker 1: East End um and especially heading toward the events of 224 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:16,480 Speaker 1: eighteen eighty eight and the personalities and the people. Um, 225 00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 1: let's go to Charles Warren. Can you briefly describe Charles 226 00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:25,679 Speaker 1: warren'ts uh? Maybe his personality and his career leading up 227 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:30,800 Speaker 1: to Who was Charles Warren? Yes, Sir, Charles Warren basically 228 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 1: was a soldier, a scholar, engineer and administrator. He had 229 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:43,440 Speaker 1: basically been undertaking or overseeing engineering work done in various 230 00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:49,600 Speaker 1: places abroad. He was also an archaeologist of some distinction 231 00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:58,760 Speaker 1: and eventually was a senior Freemason, and he undertook excavation 232 00:17:59,119 --> 00:18:07,120 Speaker 1: work in in Egypt and elsewhere in Palestine. Um, and 233 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:12,040 Speaker 1: he was. But it's also been claimed that whilst he 234 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:14,840 Speaker 1: was doing this work he was acting as a spy 235 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:19,439 Speaker 1: and mapping out land for for the government. But he 236 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:22,240 Speaker 1: was quite distinguished in that respect, wrote a couple of 237 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:26,040 Speaker 1: books about it, and he also played a part in 238 00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:33,160 Speaker 1: investigating the death of a professor who had gone out 239 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:37,560 Speaker 1: out there and had gone missing and had actually been 240 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:43,680 Speaker 1: murdered by the natives. And Warren trapped down the natives 241 00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 1: and found out who they were, which really was It 242 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:52,560 Speaker 1: was no mean feat. So he came back to the 243 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:57,040 Speaker 1: uk as uh, you know, quite quite a bit of 244 00:18:57,080 --> 00:19:01,919 Speaker 1: a national hero actually, the way the newspapers had portrayed 245 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:08,639 Speaker 1: his actions abroad. So he came back. He he was 246 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 1: chosen to be commissioner of the Metropolitan Police. He that 247 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:23,240 Speaker 1: was probably a very good decision because certainly the press 248 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:29,679 Speaker 1: welcomed it because the police needed to be we're in 249 00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:38,360 Speaker 1: desperate need really of organization. Later he was accused of 250 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:44,480 Speaker 1: organizing the police too much along military lines, paying too 251 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:50,680 Speaker 1: much attention to minor things such as boots and shoes 252 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:56,000 Speaker 1: and things. But he did have a very keen concern 253 00:19:56,320 --> 00:20:02,159 Speaker 1: about the welfare of the ordinary policeman. So yeah, um, 254 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:07,200 Speaker 1: what is interesting is that what happened at the time 255 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:12,439 Speaker 1: of Jack the Ripper uh caused a change in the 256 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:20,720 Speaker 1: police which has carried on through to today and probably, 257 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:23,080 Speaker 1: I mean, I think it might be fair to say 258 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:26,040 Speaker 1: it's affected things on really on both sides of the 259 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:34,359 Speaker 1: Atlantic and elsewhere. When the police were formed, it was 260 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:42,960 Speaker 1: formed as an organization to protect the public from crime 261 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:51,080 Speaker 1: and protect and prevent crime. And that was the reason 262 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:55,199 Speaker 1: why they started. Why why you had policemen patrolling the 263 00:20:55,240 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 1: streets on their beat. Detective work was really perceived as 264 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:08,840 Speaker 1: a sign of failure to have the detective meant that 265 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:13,439 Speaker 1: a crime had been committed and that needed it needed 266 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:16,360 Speaker 1: to be detected, whereas the whole object of the police 267 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:20,680 Speaker 1: was was the crimes were not going to be committed. 268 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:27,680 Speaker 1: So there was this difference. Now a man called James Munroe, 269 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:34,400 Speaker 1: his background being very much detecting crime. He had been 270 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:41,960 Speaker 1: done a fair amount of workouts as running a clandestine 271 00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:45,760 Speaker 1: side of things, and so he was aware of of 272 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:48,639 Speaker 1: all of that, especially when he was ahead of the 273 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:54,000 Speaker 1: police in India, and he was appointed head of the 274 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:59,400 Speaker 1: c I D which is the detective branch of Scotland Yard. 275 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:06,479 Speaker 1: And so you had these two men who were really 276 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:14,199 Speaker 1: either end of things. And when Warren resigned as he 277 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:21,760 Speaker 1: did later in he was replaced by James Munroe. And 278 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:26,520 Speaker 1: so whereas Warren in his annual report had not even 279 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 1: bothered to mention anything about the detectives, Munroe was very 280 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:39,480 Speaker 1: probe his department MHM. And that's carried through right down 281 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 1: to today where more interest is being given is given 282 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:49,879 Speaker 1: to detectives and many detectives almost became superstars in the past. 283 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:54,840 Speaker 1: But the ordinary copper on a beat, the copper and 284 00:22:55,000 --> 00:23:00,520 Speaker 1: uniform UH is almost seen as a less so being, 285 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:10,960 Speaker 1: which wasn't the case under Warren's regime. Warren, unfortunately, ah 286 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:16,399 Speaker 1: after he resigned, he was sent out to to fight 287 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:23,480 Speaker 1: abroad and he made are there's some slight evidence to 288 00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:29,959 Speaker 1: the effect that he was a man and a general 289 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:35,280 Speaker 1: appointing him was suffering from senility and thought he was 290 00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:39,399 Speaker 1: somebody else. I thought Warren was somebody else and appointed 291 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:46,360 Speaker 1: him to a job that he was a seriously deficient 292 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:52,440 Speaker 1: inexperience to undertake. And there was a battle at a 293 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:56,200 Speaker 1: place called spied On cop and it was an absolute disaster. 294 00:23:56,840 --> 00:24:01,879 Speaker 1: And that's basically stuck with Warren uh and has damaged 295 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 1: his reputation for the rest of his life and right 296 00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:10,679 Speaker 1: down to today. M hm. Now, his time as Commissioner 297 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:16,440 Speaker 1: only lasted about two years, is that right? That's right? Yeah. 298 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:21,200 Speaker 1: And as well as having a difference of approach to Monroe, 299 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:29,400 Speaker 1: he also had frequent conflicts with Matthews, the Home Secretary. Um, 300 00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:36,560 Speaker 1: can you describe what the conflicts were in their relationship? Well, basically, 301 00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:44,200 Speaker 1: when Sir Charles Warren accepted the commissionership of the Metropolitan Police, 302 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:50,440 Speaker 1: he believed that he had full authority over the police 303 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:56,679 Speaker 1: and he wasn't aware so well led to believe that 304 00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:02,960 Speaker 1: he was answerable to the own secretary and two various 305 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:10,959 Speaker 1: of the Home Office mandarins, and so he wanted to 306 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:14,960 Speaker 1: have full control over what was going on. That first 307 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:19,200 Speaker 1: of all, brought him into conflict with James Munroe, who 308 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:25,199 Speaker 1: also believed that he had almost complete authority over the 309 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:29,919 Speaker 1: c i D, and he resented Warren's involvement with the 310 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:33,280 Speaker 1: c i D, and he resented Warren almost ignoring the 311 00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:39,760 Speaker 1: c i D. Matthews was also a fairly difficult man, 312 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:43,520 Speaker 1: as was the sort of liaison between the two, which 313 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:51,760 Speaker 1: was a man called Godfrey Lushington, and eventually got to 314 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:57,640 Speaker 1: a point where Munroe sorry where Warren wrote an article 315 00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:03,080 Speaker 1: that but he had received permission to write that article, 316 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:05,640 Speaker 1: and he felt that all he could do at that 317 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:08,920 Speaker 1: time was offered his resignation, which he did, and that's 318 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:14,040 Speaker 1: why he went. But it typifies the sort of relationship 319 00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:17,800 Speaker 1: that he had with Henry Matthews is that the Metropolitan 320 00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:23,160 Speaker 1: Police was being criticized and he thought the criticism was unjustified, 321 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:30,080 Speaker 1: and so he defended his department, only to discover that 322 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:32,919 Speaker 1: he could only defend his department providing he had the 323 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 1: permission of Henry Matthews to do so. And if therefore, 324 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 1: if Henry Matthews said no, he had no alternative but 325 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:43,679 Speaker 1: to sit back and and sort of bite his tongue 326 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 1: and seethe. And those are the sort of conflicts that 327 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:54,040 Speaker 1: they had. And in the previous prior to the murders, 328 00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:57,679 Speaker 1: there had been what turned out to be a riot 329 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:04,199 Speaker 1: in Trafalgar Square as a consequence of the unemployed wanting 330 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:10,800 Speaker 1: to hold meetings, and there was this march was planned 331 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:17,479 Speaker 1: to take place on Trafalgar Square and Warren uh they 332 00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:21,520 Speaker 1: they they, Matthews couldn't make up his mind what the 333 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:27,200 Speaker 1: legal situation was with regard to trying to stop these marches, 334 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:33,679 Speaker 1: so he vacillated from one thing to another. Warren was 335 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:36,879 Speaker 1: putting out instructions that the march couldn't go ahead, and 336 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:39,320 Speaker 1: then it was all right to go ahead. Everybody was 337 00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:43,119 Speaker 1: getting frustrated. The whole thing blew up into a riot 338 00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:46,960 Speaker 1: that was quite nasty, and Warren got blamed for the 339 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:51,280 Speaker 1: whole thing. So he was now he was he Matthews 340 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:54,560 Speaker 1: was a bit of a waste of time. Really. He 341 00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:59,480 Speaker 1: probably had his own troubles, which, unfortunately we don't know 342 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:06,280 Speaker 1: a huge amount of that. Um. But he doesn't. He 343 00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:09,520 Speaker 1: seems to have fallen out with most people in one 344 00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:14,560 Speaker 1: way or another. UM. And the even the government wanted him, 345 00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:21,719 Speaker 1: really found him unsuitable as Home Secretary, but for various 346 00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:25,840 Speaker 1: political reasons, they were not able to get rid of him, 347 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:28,920 Speaker 1: so he had to stay in office, even though he 348 00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:33,439 Speaker 1: was causing quite a bit of difficulty. Mm hm hm. 349 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:37,719 Speaker 1: Let's talk a couple of other people who ended up 350 00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:43,160 Speaker 1: being pivotal figures um, either in the investigation of the 351 00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:47,680 Speaker 1: White Chapel murders or in the reporting on the White 352 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:53,400 Speaker 1: Chapel murders. Uh. Let's talk Dr Winn Baxter. Um. Who 353 00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:57,040 Speaker 1: was he? Why is he such a significant figure in 354 00:28:57,080 --> 00:29:02,240 Speaker 1: the investigation and in the press reporting about the Whitechapel Well. 355 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:07,360 Speaker 1: Win Baxter was actually a lawyer, not a not a doctor, 356 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:14,240 Speaker 1: but which was possibly one of the problems. He was 357 00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:20,720 Speaker 1: the coroner for the area where at least three of 358 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:26,240 Speaker 1: the murders were committed, and so it was his job 359 00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:32,360 Speaker 1: to basically inquire into the crime and to establish cause 360 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:38,400 Speaker 1: of death, time of death and details like that. There's 361 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:42,440 Speaker 1: also the fact that he felt a little bit that 362 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:46,160 Speaker 1: part of things were with an unsolved crime, that there 363 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:51,200 Speaker 1: was a responsibility there to interview and gave the gain 364 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:58,120 Speaker 1: sorry interview and gain the evidence of people so that 365 00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:03,480 Speaker 1: in the event their testimony would be that were given 366 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:09,080 Speaker 1: under oath, would be available to be brought to court 367 00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:12,400 Speaker 1: if at some point in the future somebody was put 368 00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:16,600 Speaker 1: on trial for the crime, because they couldn't always guarantee 369 00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:20,360 Speaker 1: that some that a witness would could be found or 370 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:30,040 Speaker 1: would even be alive. Baxter is distinguished for perhaps being 371 00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:38,560 Speaker 1: a little pedantic. He questioned in depth the his inquests 372 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:46,360 Speaker 1: covered several weeks. There there were adjournments, and the press 373 00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:51,640 Speaker 1: would speculate whilst that the adjournment was taking place, and 374 00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:58,080 Speaker 1: there would be lots of press reporting around around the 375 00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:02,480 Speaker 1: the the inquiry themselves, the days the inquests were held. 376 00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:06,200 Speaker 1: So he was thought in some instances to be a 377 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:07,960 Speaker 1: bit of a bit of a pain, a bit of 378 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:14,920 Speaker 1: a nuisance. Uh So that that, But thank goodness he was, 379 00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:19,000 Speaker 1: because it's only as a consequence of his inquests that 380 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:21,680 Speaker 1: we have as much information about the crimes as we 381 00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:29,040 Speaker 1: do hm. Hm. The eighties offered the London Police little 382 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:35,120 Speaker 1: by way of the forensic techniques that detectives used today. Um. 383 00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:38,480 Speaker 1: But over the course of investigating the White Chappel murders. 384 00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:42,360 Speaker 1: There are a few interesting ideas that were suggested suggested 385 00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:47,160 Speaker 1: uh in one setting or another, either at the I 386 00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:51,480 Speaker 1: D or in an inquest um that might even seem 387 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:54,600 Speaker 1: a little strange today. What were some of the the 388 00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:59,160 Speaker 1: cutting edge methods that were considered for collecting and analyzing 389 00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:04,840 Speaker 1: evidence in the course of investigating the murders. Well, the 390 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:10,800 Speaker 1: the it's it's it's a difficult thing because the police 391 00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:16,840 Speaker 1: hadn't actually encountered something of this kind before, So for 392 00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:22,840 Speaker 1: a lot of them this was a new and difficult experience, 393 00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:29,000 Speaker 1: and the police had over the years they had worked 394 00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:33,160 Speaker 1: out how things were to be done. So the police 395 00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:41,880 Speaker 1: basically they were required to protect the crime scene pretty 396 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:47,720 Speaker 1: much as we do today, although to compare how we 397 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:50,920 Speaker 1: protect a crime scene today from how they protected a 398 00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:56,600 Speaker 1: crime scene in you would see very considerable differences. But 399 00:32:56,760 --> 00:33:01,440 Speaker 1: ideally the body should be dis scribed and looked at 400 00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:05,800 Speaker 1: before the doctor and other policemen came up and trampled 401 00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:12,320 Speaker 1: all over the area. The police were supposed to uh 402 00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:17,440 Speaker 1: look at the clothing and and look at other aspects 403 00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:23,440 Speaker 1: of the the physical side of the crime. The a 404 00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:28,760 Speaker 1: doctor would look for would would be there to ensure 405 00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:31,920 Speaker 1: that death had happened, but would also be providing a 406 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:37,280 Speaker 1: time of death, would be trying to determine what the 407 00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:42,600 Speaker 1: weapon used was uh, and where it was used from 408 00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:47,040 Speaker 1: and so on and so forth, which is all pretty 409 00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:49,880 Speaker 1: much the same sort of thing that that that is 410 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:56,720 Speaker 1: done today. They didn't have any really techniques of anything. 411 00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:03,480 Speaker 1: They couldn't They couldn't identify human blood, couldn't distinguish that 412 00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:10,440 Speaker 1: too well. They obviously they didn't have anything like DNA photography. 413 00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:13,400 Speaker 1: They did use for crime scenes. They did that in 414 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:15,480 Speaker 1: the case of Mary Kelly, but it was a fairly 415 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:22,520 Speaker 1: rudimentary process and bad lighting could affect that. So they 416 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:29,520 Speaker 1: were they were really down in detecting crime. Was was 417 00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:35,120 Speaker 1: down to hard nose detective work, lacking the science that 418 00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:40,760 Speaker 1: were used to today. M Hm m hm. So let's 419 00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:49,520 Speaker 1: start stepping toward that investigation of the murders themselves. Um. 420 00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:54,200 Speaker 1: One of the interesting facts that complicated the investigation was 421 00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:59,359 Speaker 1: that Robert Anderson was absent from office on the day 422 00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:03,480 Speaker 1: that Mary and Nichols is killed, and he continues a 423 00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:07,920 Speaker 1: month long sick leave the day after any Chapman is killed. 424 00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:13,320 Speaker 1: M Can you describe the apartment that he left behind 425 00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:20,040 Speaker 1: when he was on this sick leave. Well, what happened 426 00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:23,520 Speaker 1: with with Sir Robert Anderson was that he was appointed 427 00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:31,080 Speaker 1: head of the c I D. And he had he 428 00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:35,120 Speaker 1: or he says that he his doctor had at that 429 00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:40,080 Speaker 1: point prescribed him with a necessary holiday because he was 430 00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:44,560 Speaker 1: suffering from exhaustion. So when he was appointed to the job, 431 00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:52,320 Speaker 1: he made this point known, and the date when and 432 00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:57,239 Speaker 1: for how long he should take leave was given to 433 00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:01,000 Speaker 1: him by Sir Charles Warren. So it wasn't at Anderson's 434 00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:04,480 Speaker 1: choice to go at that time. That was the time 435 00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:09,120 Speaker 1: that Warren wanted him to leave, because Warren was actually 436 00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:14,800 Speaker 1: expecting there to be an up search later on in 437 00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:18,040 Speaker 1: when there would be when he thought there would be 438 00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:23,919 Speaker 1: further demonstrations by the unemployed as had happened to him 439 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:30,240 Speaker 1: in the previous year. So he wanted Anderson back and 440 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:37,759 Speaker 1: fully ensconced in the Assistant Commissioner's chair for later in 441 00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:40,200 Speaker 1: the year, so he told him to go at that time. 442 00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:46,719 Speaker 1: So Anderson went on holiday. He couldn't have known that 443 00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:48,799 Speaker 1: there was going to be a murder on the day 444 00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:52,759 Speaker 1: he left, nor could he have known or would he 445 00:36:52,800 --> 00:37:00,800 Speaker 1: have expected, that there would be another week murder straight afterwards. Um, 446 00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:04,640 Speaker 1: and so he was he when when he was alerted 447 00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:10,080 Speaker 1: to to come back, he he did so. So Anderson 448 00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:18,399 Speaker 1: was away. But I don't think any any blame can 449 00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:23,040 Speaker 1: be assigned to Anderson for that fact. Uh. What he 450 00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:27,319 Speaker 1: left behind, of course was it was a department that 451 00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:30,040 Speaker 1: didn't have him at the top. But it seems to 452 00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:35,560 Speaker 1: have functioned reasonably well. The investigation seems to have gone ahead. 453 00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:41,280 Speaker 1: And it was towards the end of Anderson's absence abroad 454 00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:46,440 Speaker 1: that the police um decided to do a house to 455 00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:53,200 Speaker 1: house search for investigating men who were living on their own. 456 00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:58,080 Speaker 1: So all the all the all the usual things seemed 457 00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:00,239 Speaker 1: to have done in the case being done with the 458 00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:11,160 Speaker 1: murders of of Annie Chapman and Mary Nichols. M Um, 459 00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:15,279 Speaker 1: who was Mary Anne or or Polly Nichols? What do 460 00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:20,880 Speaker 1: we know about her life? Well? Um, Mary Anne Nichols 461 00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:26,560 Speaker 1: was was born in eighteen forty five near Fleet Street, 462 00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:32,839 Speaker 1: which is where lots of newspapers were located until relatively recently. Um. 463 00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:37,080 Speaker 1: She was the middle of three children. The others were brothers, 464 00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:40,759 Speaker 1: one older and the other younger, and she married a 465 00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:44,520 Speaker 1: man called William Nichols in eighteen sixty four um. He 466 00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:48,440 Speaker 1: was a printer, and they would have five children, and 467 00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:52,040 Speaker 1: they lived quite comfortably in a block of flats or 468 00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:56,320 Speaker 1: apartments as you might call them, known as peabody buildings, 469 00:38:56,320 --> 00:39:03,960 Speaker 1: which this was a somewhat upmarket place. You had to 470 00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:08,640 Speaker 1: be you had to pass certain qualities, have certain qualifications 471 00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:14,120 Speaker 1: to to be allowed to live there. And they had 472 00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:18,040 Speaker 1: shared toilet facilities, they were cooking facilities, there was a 473 00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:23,840 Speaker 1: close washing area. You could even book and have a 474 00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:28,120 Speaker 1: hot bath every day if you liked so. There were 475 00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:33,960 Speaker 1: facilities for for personal hygiene, and most of those things 476 00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:40,840 Speaker 1: were things that people in the surrounding houses didn't necessarily enjoy. 477 00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:44,400 Speaker 1: So you can see that this was quite a They 478 00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:48,160 Speaker 1: were a little bit upmarket and paying a modest rent 479 00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:52,520 Speaker 1: for for this kind of establishment. But about eight the 480 00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:59,800 Speaker 1: couple separated. The precise circumstances aren't probably understood, but William 481 00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:04,080 Speaker 1: Calls said that Mary Ann began drinking heavily and had 482 00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:08,880 Speaker 1: left him on several occasions. Then she left him for 483 00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:14,840 Speaker 1: good and he provided some financial support, but in two 484 00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:18,880 Speaker 1: he discovered that she was living by prostitution and ceased 485 00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:24,360 Speaker 1: making the payments. He was summoned for maintenance, but proved 486 00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:30,400 Speaker 1: his case, and that is what is said in the 487 00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:34,800 Speaker 1: police One of the police reports that have survived Mary's 488 00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:45,040 Speaker 1: life thereafter is a series of stays in workhouses until August, 489 00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:49,719 Speaker 1: when she was staying in a common lodging house in 490 00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:53,400 Speaker 1: Thrall Streets, Spittlefields, paying fortunes a night for a bed. 491 00:40:54,640 --> 00:41:00,480 Speaker 1: She then moved to another workhouse, sorry, and the lodging 492 00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:05,760 Speaker 1: house and it was search that's where she was living 493 00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:10,320 Speaker 1: when on the thirty one of August she was found 494 00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:18,839 Speaker 1: dead in a street called Buck's Road. Mhm mhm. Um. 495 00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:25,400 Speaker 1: So one of the people who is responsible for determining 496 00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:30,920 Speaker 1: what happened, Uh, it's a detective named Frederick Aberlein who 497 00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:37,240 Speaker 1: is attached to H division, the White Chapel Division, I believe, Um, 498 00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:42,359 Speaker 1: can you describe what approach he would have taken, uh 499 00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:47,239 Speaker 1: to beginning a murder investigation before there's a kind of 500 00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:51,680 Speaker 1: expectation that it's a serial killing. There's no idea about 501 00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:54,640 Speaker 1: there being some figure named Jack the Ripper. It's just 502 00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:58,960 Speaker 1: Frederick Aberlein and c I D investigating a murder. What 503 00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:03,560 Speaker 1: would would Airline's approach have been? Well, first of all, 504 00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:08,279 Speaker 1: there there were there had been two murders in Whitechapel 505 00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:12,640 Speaker 1: prior to the murder of Mary Ann Nichols. The first 506 00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:16,200 Speaker 1: had been earlier in the year when a woman named 507 00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:22,200 Speaker 1: emeral Elizabeth Smith was attacked by apparently by by a 508 00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:29,040 Speaker 1: group of three men u and one of them had 509 00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:35,799 Speaker 1: round some sort of object into her, causing paraitonitis to 510 00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:42,840 Speaker 1: set in, from which she had died. And then about 511 00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:49,040 Speaker 1: a week before Mary Ann Nichols was murdered, another woman 512 00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:55,040 Speaker 1: called Martha Tabrum had been murdered on the landings of 513 00:42:55,920 --> 00:43:02,480 Speaker 1: a block of flats, and she had been stabbed nearly 514 00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:08,000 Speaker 1: thirty times, m in a friend that fairly frenzied attack, 515 00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:12,879 Speaker 1: a lot of the stabs being to the area of 516 00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:17,839 Speaker 1: the genitals and upper thighs and so forth. So then 517 00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:20,359 Speaker 1: the murder of mary Ann Nichols came along, So that 518 00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:27,600 Speaker 1: was the third murder in Whitechapel, remembering that there weren't 519 00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:30,440 Speaker 1: any other murders taking place, those were the only three 520 00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:35,480 Speaker 1: murders that had taken place in Whitechapel at that time. 521 00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:39,960 Speaker 1: So by the time he got to Nichols, it was 522 00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:43,960 Speaker 1: beginning to be recognized that there was something odd going on. 523 00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:52,120 Speaker 1: The original idea was that that the murders had perhaps 524 00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:56,960 Speaker 1: been committed by a gang who had been extorting money 525 00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:03,040 Speaker 1: from the local prostituere u. And so basically these two attacks, 526 00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:06,919 Speaker 1: first of all, a very violent attack that wasn't necessarily 527 00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:12,399 Speaker 1: intended to kill, and then a frenzied attack on which 528 00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:17,160 Speaker 1: obviously was intended to kill, but were were these were 529 00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:20,160 Speaker 1: lessons to show what other women could expect if they 530 00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:24,400 Speaker 1: didn't pay up to the gang. So that was the 531 00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:33,560 Speaker 1: had been a prevailing theory. Inspector Abilene had been assigned 532 00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:39,960 Speaker 1: to the White Chapel area in March eighteen seventy three 533 00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:47,239 Speaker 1: and had been been there until February seven, at which 534 00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:53,600 Speaker 1: point he was transferred to the METS headquarters Scotland Yard. 535 00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:58,600 Speaker 1: So when Nichols was murdered, he was sent back to 536 00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:02,080 Speaker 1: investigate the murder us because he knew the area really 537 00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:08,239 Speaker 1: well and was very well respected there, and I knew 538 00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:12,799 Speaker 1: a lot of people, so you he would have had 539 00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:16,359 Speaker 1: quite a lot of eyes on the ground as it were, uh, 540 00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:26,880 Speaker 1: And so his investigation was really came to the conclusion 541 00:45:27,480 --> 00:45:32,040 Speaker 1: that it was He then sort of abandoned the idea 542 00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:37,279 Speaker 1: that this was a gang, and he came to the 543 00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:42,640 Speaker 1: conclusion that they'd probably all been committed by the same person, 544 00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:46,279 Speaker 1: and that the murder of Mary Anne Nichols had it 545 00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:49,600 Speaker 1: was by one person and not a gang, and that 546 00:45:49,680 --> 00:46:00,399 Speaker 1: that person was a man. Mhm. So why um, why 547 00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:04,400 Speaker 1: would the the earlier killings of Ma Smith and Martha 548 00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:09,920 Speaker 1: Tabrum later be omitted from considerations of the case as 549 00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:16,239 Speaker 1: a whole by someone like Dr Thomas Bond on November Well, 550 00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:23,080 Speaker 1: To be honest, I don't think we really know why it. 551 00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:30,400 Speaker 1: Bond didn't include those crimes. He he was, he wasn't 552 00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:38,640 Speaker 1: asked two h take any part in in the examination 553 00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:46,200 Speaker 1: of those crimes, and it was with Nichols that we 554 00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:52,400 Speaker 1: start to get detailed descriptions of what were happening. So 555 00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:56,480 Speaker 1: it may well be that his he was only provided 556 00:46:56,600 --> 00:47:03,400 Speaker 1: with information from Nichols to Mary Kelly, which was a 557 00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:08,480 Speaker 1: crime that he was responsible for actually was there, and 558 00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:11,239 Speaker 1: he only worked from the reports that he had been 559 00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:22,640 Speaker 1: provided up to ah the murder of Mary Kelly. M hmm. Now, 560 00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:28,480 Speaker 1: just before any Chapman's murder um the radical newspaper The Star, 561 00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:32,399 Speaker 1: which had been publishing for less than a year UM 562 00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:34,760 Speaker 1: they began to trump at the story that Polly Nichols 563 00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:38,640 Speaker 1: killer was a Jew named leather Apron. Can you describe 564 00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:44,319 Speaker 1: when these reports start hitting the public, what kinds of 565 00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:48,960 Speaker 1: stereotypes about Jewish life in the East End would these 566 00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:57,760 Speaker 1: reports have conjured up for the Stars readership. Well, the 567 00:47:57,760 --> 00:48:01,960 Speaker 1: the East End Jewish community was as largely consisted of 568 00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:09,000 Speaker 1: recent immigrants fleeing persecution in Eastern Europe. Ah they formed 569 00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:17,280 Speaker 1: tight knit communities, often often built around people who had 570 00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:20,799 Speaker 1: come across from there from the same village, So whold 571 00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:26,680 Speaker 1: streets could be taken over by uh people who have 572 00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:30,200 Speaker 1: fled from the same village abroaden and in Eastern Europe, 573 00:48:30,239 --> 00:48:35,080 Speaker 1: and they had they'd have their own little places of worship, 574 00:48:35,239 --> 00:48:40,440 Speaker 1: and of course, because they were looking for kosher food, 575 00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:45,440 Speaker 1: they would only be eating the food provided in the 576 00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:51,000 Speaker 1: main by their own community. So that alienated a lot 577 00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:59,160 Speaker 1: of the the native people, especially when accommodation that had 578 00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:07,840 Speaker 1: formerly been made available to one family, the immigrants coming 579 00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:12,560 Speaker 1: from Eastern Europe were content to take a room with 580 00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:16,439 Speaker 1: the whole family living in a room, and so these properties, 581 00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:20,920 Speaker 1: many of these properties could be let to lots of 582 00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:25,440 Speaker 1: people instead of one person, and so the single tenants 583 00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:28,200 Speaker 1: were finding it very hard to find somewhere to live, 584 00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:31,960 Speaker 1: and so there's a lot of ill feeling about these people, 585 00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:39,400 Speaker 1: um which basically boils down to the difficulty that we 586 00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:46,600 Speaker 1: have in being able to distinguish between hostility towards people 587 00:49:46,680 --> 00:49:52,840 Speaker 1: because they were Jewish or just because they were that 588 00:49:53,040 --> 00:50:02,319 Speaker 1: they were there were foreigners, and not using not not 589 00:50:02,680 --> 00:50:07,640 Speaker 1: sort of relating well to the native population. So that 590 00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:11,560 Speaker 1: was the first thing that it's a bit uncertain about 591 00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:19,520 Speaker 1: and the but what's interesting I think about the leather 592 00:50:19,600 --> 00:50:28,520 Speaker 1: Apron story is uh he was portrayed in the Star 593 00:50:28,719 --> 00:50:31,759 Speaker 1: as a Jewish criminal, almost sort of in the in 594 00:50:31,800 --> 00:50:37,200 Speaker 1: the tradition of Dickens Fagin. The Star reported that he 595 00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:41,520 Speaker 1: moved through the streets at night. He was strangely silent, 596 00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:46,239 Speaker 1: very menacing and threatening the prostitutes with a sharp leather 597 00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:49,840 Speaker 1: knife as a knife to cut leather, not a knife 598 00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:53,680 Speaker 1: made out of leather. As the Star reported his uh 599 00:50:54,160 --> 00:50:57,440 Speaker 1: It said, his expression is sinister and seems to be 600 00:50:57,640 --> 00:51:00,360 Speaker 1: full of terror for the women who describe aimed it. 601 00:51:00,840 --> 00:51:04,360 Speaker 1: His eyes are small and glittering. His lips are usually 602 00:51:04,400 --> 00:51:08,880 Speaker 1: parted in a grin, which is not only not reassuring 603 00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:13,040 Speaker 1: but excessively repellent. I mean, so that they're really going 604 00:51:13,120 --> 00:51:17,160 Speaker 1: overboard in their description of this sort of nightmare creation. 605 00:51:18,040 --> 00:51:23,520 Speaker 1: And they also described features which are sterop stereotypically Jewish, 606 00:51:24,239 --> 00:51:28,359 Speaker 1: so it was quite obvious what they were aiming at. Uh. 607 00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:31,360 Speaker 1: The interesting thing is that is that leather Apron probably 608 00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:38,320 Speaker 1: didn't have never existed. There were undoubtedly men who stole 609 00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:42,880 Speaker 1: from the women, and it may well be that it 610 00:51:43,000 --> 00:51:47,680 Speaker 1: was some of these men who women thought was the 611 00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:51,799 Speaker 1: leather Apron being described. But as far as we can tell, 612 00:51:52,239 --> 00:51:55,120 Speaker 1: the original story seems to have been credited to a 613 00:51:55,120 --> 00:51:59,480 Speaker 1: man called Harry Damn, and he was an American journalist 614 00:51:59,480 --> 00:52:04,040 Speaker 1: who has looking briefly for the start in London. He 615 00:52:04,200 --> 00:52:06,480 Speaker 1: was young, and it seems likely that some of the 616 00:52:07,080 --> 00:52:09,120 Speaker 1: women he spoke to when he was sent to the 617 00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:14,200 Speaker 1: East then to gain information, fed him the basics of 618 00:52:14,239 --> 00:52:19,600 Speaker 1: the leather Apron story. Uh. And then he exaggerated that 619 00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:24,359 Speaker 1: and worked that up in a way that American journalists 620 00:52:24,440 --> 00:52:27,760 Speaker 1: were a bit more used to doing than the British 621 00:52:27,840 --> 00:52:34,359 Speaker 1: journalists were. And unfortunately for him, it turned out that 622 00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:36,719 Speaker 1: there was a man in the East Den with the 623 00:52:36,840 --> 00:52:40,760 Speaker 1: nickname of leather Apron, and so the star story really 624 00:52:41,120 --> 00:52:48,359 Speaker 1: didn't do that man much many favors m And that 625 00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:52,960 Speaker 1: man's name was was John Piser. That's right. Um, So 626 00:52:53,080 --> 00:52:55,960 Speaker 1: when this story comes to attach to John Piser, what 627 00:52:56,040 --> 00:53:00,680 Speaker 1: are the consequences for him? Well, John Pies was the 628 00:53:01,200 --> 00:53:03,960 Speaker 1: was the son of a Polish immigrant, and he was 629 00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:09,840 Speaker 1: a slipper maker by trade. He and he wore a 630 00:53:09,920 --> 00:53:12,920 Speaker 1: leather apron, which was the usual attire for someone in 631 00:53:13,360 --> 00:53:20,239 Speaker 1: his life line of business, and for some reason it 632 00:53:20,280 --> 00:53:23,360 Speaker 1: had also won him the nickname leather Apron, probably because 633 00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:29,120 Speaker 1: he walked to work and came home and everything we're 634 00:53:29,480 --> 00:53:33,160 Speaker 1: wearing the apron. We don't really know an awful lot 635 00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:36,920 Speaker 1: about it for certain, except that his health was poor 636 00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:41,160 Speaker 1: and that a police sergeant for some reason thought it 637 00:53:41,360 --> 00:53:45,399 Speaker 1: likely that he was the man allegedly spoken about by 638 00:53:45,400 --> 00:53:50,279 Speaker 1: the local prostitutes to the start, and so he was 639 00:53:50,360 --> 00:53:56,560 Speaker 1: arrested and hauled in. And of course the result of 640 00:53:56,600 --> 00:54:04,960 Speaker 1: that was that first of all, he found himself with 641 00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:08,600 Speaker 1: with the fear of being jack the rippa being held 642 00:54:08,640 --> 00:54:13,440 Speaker 1: over his head uh and and sort of fighting not 643 00:54:13,560 --> 00:54:19,200 Speaker 1: two pcent to the gallows uh And And secondly, it 644 00:54:19,280 --> 00:54:24,400 Speaker 1: awakened even more animosity towards the Jews, because suddenly this 645 00:54:25,920 --> 00:54:29,520 Speaker 1: to a lot of people, it looked like this murderer 646 00:54:29,800 --> 00:54:33,960 Speaker 1: was a Jew, was one of the recent immigrants from 647 00:54:34,000 --> 00:54:40,400 Speaker 1: Eastern Europe. Is there a way to kind of generally 648 00:54:40,480 --> 00:54:44,400 Speaker 1: describe the relationship between the police and the press and 649 00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:48,879 Speaker 1: the East End Jewish community in mid September. Is there 650 00:54:49,400 --> 00:54:52,560 Speaker 1: something that characterizes the relationship between those three kind of 651 00:54:52,640 --> 00:54:55,480 Speaker 1: parties to what's happening here at the beginning of the 652 00:54:55,600 --> 00:55:01,239 Speaker 1: of the murder investigation, Well, I think the police. The 653 00:55:01,280 --> 00:55:08,560 Speaker 1: police seemed to have been fairly mixed, as as I 654 00:55:08,600 --> 00:55:11,920 Speaker 1: suppose you would expect there. They were fairly mixed in 655 00:55:11,960 --> 00:55:16,759 Speaker 1: their opinions about the the the immigrant Jewish population, but 656 00:55:16,840 --> 00:55:21,839 Speaker 1: then the native Jewish population was was unhappy about them 657 00:55:21,880 --> 00:55:27,120 Speaker 1: as well, So they were not really winning on on 658 00:55:27,200 --> 00:55:31,120 Speaker 1: any account, so the police. But at the time of 659 00:55:31,160 --> 00:55:34,600 Speaker 1: the crimes, the police were very happy with the way 660 00:55:34,680 --> 00:55:40,680 Speaker 1: that that the Jews had accommodated there their inquiries. And 661 00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:44,600 Speaker 1: yet on the other hand, we have policemen reporting that 662 00:55:44,680 --> 00:55:50,560 Speaker 1: they were keeping watch on some Jewish property and they 663 00:55:50,600 --> 00:55:54,160 Speaker 1: had to pretend to be not to be policemen, because 664 00:55:54,160 --> 00:55:57,600 Speaker 1: if it had been known that they were policemen, their 665 00:55:57,640 --> 00:56:01,360 Speaker 1: lives would have been at risk, so it it's very difficult. 666 00:56:03,160 --> 00:56:07,040 Speaker 1: One suspects that the Jewish immigrants kept very much to 667 00:56:07,080 --> 00:56:11,080 Speaker 1: themselves as far as the police were concerned, because the 668 00:56:11,160 --> 00:56:15,720 Speaker 1: police had been the agents of their persecutors in Eastern Europe, 669 00:56:15,760 --> 00:56:21,040 Speaker 1: so they are not likely to have been particularly anxious 670 00:56:21,080 --> 00:56:30,600 Speaker 1: to to get involved with them. The press was again 671 00:56:33,239 --> 00:56:38,719 Speaker 1: at times openly hostile. They there was a lot of 672 00:56:38,719 --> 00:56:44,480 Speaker 1: anti Semitic views were being expressed, but again there's still 673 00:56:44,560 --> 00:56:48,920 Speaker 1: this uncertainty about whether it was anti Semitic or whether 674 00:56:49,040 --> 00:56:54,399 Speaker 1: it was anti immigrant. Uh. And so the press and 675 00:56:54,560 --> 00:57:00,840 Speaker 1: the local population again they were they were fairly hostile 676 00:57:00,920 --> 00:57:08,440 Speaker 1: towards the immigrant population, and in a sense understandably so. 677 00:57:08,760 --> 00:57:15,560 Speaker 1: These people had were coming in large numbers fleeing abroad. 678 00:57:15,680 --> 00:57:22,160 Speaker 1: They were coming with lots of beliefs of their own. 679 00:57:22,200 --> 00:57:27,160 Speaker 1: They were coming from small villages into into a big city. 680 00:57:28,760 --> 00:57:32,600 Speaker 1: They didn't speak the language, they didn't understand the customs, 681 00:57:32,760 --> 00:57:35,520 Speaker 1: and for the most part they kept themselves to themselves. 682 00:57:36,640 --> 00:57:41,600 Speaker 1: So by not integrating with the with the population, UH, 683 00:57:42,360 --> 00:57:46,400 Speaker 1: they weren't at that stage doing themselves any any favors either. 684 00:57:46,880 --> 00:57:52,640 Speaker 1: So it was it was really a very difficult situation, 685 00:57:52,760 --> 00:57:58,000 Speaker 1: it could flare up at any moment. M hm. So 686 00:57:59,040 --> 00:58:03,840 Speaker 1: let's turn to Dr George Baxter Phillips, who was the 687 00:58:03,880 --> 00:58:07,720 Speaker 1: police surgeon who responds to the scene of any chapman's murder. 688 00:58:09,080 --> 00:58:12,880 Speaker 1: Can you describe a police surgeon's role and the work 689 00:58:12,960 --> 00:58:16,800 Speaker 1: that someone like doctor Dr Baxter Phillips was doing at 690 00:58:16,840 --> 00:58:23,520 Speaker 1: the time. Well, a police surgeon was a surgeon, obviously 691 00:58:24,240 --> 00:58:28,120 Speaker 1: often a local doctor who was called upon to visit 692 00:58:28,160 --> 00:58:32,200 Speaker 1: a murder scene to confirmed death, determine whether it was 693 00:58:32,240 --> 00:58:37,080 Speaker 1: from natural causes or not, and in the case of 694 00:58:37,160 --> 00:58:40,680 Speaker 1: it not being from natural causes, then the surgeon was 695 00:58:40,720 --> 00:58:45,600 Speaker 1: supposed to estimate time of death, estimate things such as 696 00:58:45,600 --> 00:58:50,280 Speaker 1: the instrument used, how it was used, and so on. 697 00:58:51,120 --> 00:58:56,760 Speaker 1: So the police surgeon very often performed the autopsy as 698 00:58:56,840 --> 00:59:01,960 Speaker 1: well and when necessary, and he gave would give evidence 699 00:59:02,000 --> 00:59:05,480 Speaker 1: at the inquest and the trial if there was one, 700 00:59:06,640 --> 00:59:09,400 Speaker 1: And he could also be called upon to give advice 701 00:59:09,480 --> 00:59:12,040 Speaker 1: to the police as and when they needed it. So 702 00:59:13,400 --> 00:59:17,200 Speaker 1: the police surgeon was was a fairly central figure and 703 00:59:17,560 --> 00:59:23,520 Speaker 1: usually well almost always lived in the area where the 704 00:59:23,560 --> 00:59:27,120 Speaker 1: where the policeman were. So h division had its own 705 00:59:28,120 --> 00:59:32,800 Speaker 1: police surgeons. M hm. Can you describe the influence of 706 00:59:33,240 --> 00:59:38,439 Speaker 1: Dr Baxter phillips judgment of any Chapman's murder. How did 707 00:59:38,880 --> 00:59:44,640 Speaker 1: what he concluded affect the investigation as a whole. Well, yes, 708 00:59:44,760 --> 00:59:49,160 Speaker 1: in in his case, Dr Baxter Phillips did influence the 709 00:59:50,320 --> 00:59:55,000 Speaker 1: direction of the investigation. Um. In the case of any Chapman, 710 00:59:57,000 --> 01:00:00,240 Speaker 1: the most important thing that the police surgeon did was 711 01:00:00,400 --> 01:00:05,000 Speaker 1: the estimate of time of death. Now, he estimated that 712 01:00:05,040 --> 01:00:09,760 Speaker 1: she had died around about four twenty in the morning. However, 713 01:00:09,800 --> 01:00:15,439 Speaker 1: he was not certain because the effect conditions such as 714 01:00:15,520 --> 01:00:18,479 Speaker 1: loss of blood and the coldness of the of the 715 01:00:18,600 --> 01:00:23,080 Speaker 1: day of that morning could have had on the body. 716 01:00:23,160 --> 01:00:26,040 Speaker 1: So he wasn't certain about time of death, but he 717 01:00:26,080 --> 01:00:29,440 Speaker 1: said around about four twenty. It could have been earlier, 718 01:00:29,480 --> 01:00:33,720 Speaker 1: it could have been later. The police gave weight to 719 01:00:33,960 --> 01:00:41,120 Speaker 1: the police surgeon's conclusion m hm, whereas when Baxter he 720 01:00:42,400 --> 01:00:48,200 Speaker 1: gave weight to witness testimony. And those witnesses were a 721 01:00:48,240 --> 01:00:51,760 Speaker 1: woman who may have passed Annie Chapman with a murderer 722 01:00:51,960 --> 01:00:55,720 Speaker 1: not long before the murder itself, and there was a 723 01:00:55,800 --> 01:01:00,720 Speaker 1: neighbor who may have heard overheard the murder to making place. 724 01:01:01,640 --> 01:01:08,280 Speaker 1: So the police tended to virtually ignore both of those 725 01:01:08,320 --> 01:01:14,480 Speaker 1: witnesses because what they claimed to have seen and heard 726 01:01:15,240 --> 01:01:19,840 Speaker 1: took place after the estimated time of death. But of 727 01:01:19,880 --> 01:01:23,720 Speaker 1: course if Dr Phillips was wrong, and it would have 728 01:01:23,760 --> 01:01:30,520 Speaker 1: been fairly significantly wrong in the time of death, then 729 01:01:30,680 --> 01:01:38,520 Speaker 1: those witnesses should have been accorded greater seriousness than they were. 730 01:01:39,040 --> 01:01:43,040 Speaker 1: So in that instance we have a case of the 731 01:01:43,120 --> 01:01:50,840 Speaker 1: doctor's evidence then and the theorists still now being a 732 01:01:50,840 --> 01:01:55,840 Speaker 1: matter of considerable argument today at least. M hm. You've 733 01:01:55,880 --> 01:02:01,680 Speaker 1: mentioned the length of the inquests that win Extra held. Um, 734 01:02:01,760 --> 01:02:05,400 Speaker 1: the inquest for for Nichols and for Chapman conclude, uh, 735 01:02:05,440 --> 01:02:09,360 Speaker 1: just four days apart from each other. At that point, 736 01:02:09,520 --> 01:02:14,600 Speaker 1: after both of those inquests have closed, Um, what were 737 01:02:14,600 --> 01:02:18,840 Speaker 1: the results? Was there kind of a prevailing opinion, especially 738 01:02:19,080 --> 01:02:23,080 Speaker 1: among the detectives and those who are running the investigation, 739 01:02:23,400 --> 01:02:28,160 Speaker 1: about what was happening. Yes, By the time Abilene was 740 01:02:28,240 --> 01:02:34,120 Speaker 1: transferred to Whitechapel to take charge of the investigation, Uh, 741 01:02:34,280 --> 01:02:40,200 Speaker 1: the he concluded that at least Nichols had been killed 742 01:02:40,360 --> 01:02:45,600 Speaker 1: by one person, and there are press reports that suggest 743 01:02:45,800 --> 01:02:50,200 Speaker 1: that he was also of the opinion at that stage 744 01:02:50,240 --> 01:02:57,400 Speaker 1: that possibly Smith and Taburn were also killed by the 745 01:02:57,480 --> 01:03:02,160 Speaker 1: same person. So there was a movement now towards thinking 746 01:03:02,320 --> 01:03:07,240 Speaker 1: that uh, the that they were dealing with with what 747 01:03:07,400 --> 01:03:11,120 Speaker 1: today we would call a serial killer. Now it has 748 01:03:11,160 --> 01:03:16,880 Speaker 1: to be realized that whilst the police, uh we're certainly 749 01:03:17,000 --> 01:03:22,680 Speaker 1: senior policeman, members of the medical profession, and the judiciary 750 01:03:23,320 --> 01:03:29,680 Speaker 1: were aware of a thing of what we call serial killers, 751 01:03:32,040 --> 01:03:36,280 Speaker 1: they didn't The average man in the street didn't understand 752 01:03:36,640 --> 01:03:39,960 Speaker 1: it at all. It was a completely new and frightening 753 01:03:41,160 --> 01:03:46,840 Speaker 1: phenomenon as far as they were concerned. The senior police 754 01:03:46,920 --> 01:03:52,240 Speaker 1: and the doctors and so forth didn't have a shared 755 01:03:52,360 --> 01:03:58,120 Speaker 1: language with which to describe these people. So whereas we 756 01:03:58,760 --> 01:04:01,400 Speaker 1: quite happily talk about serial killer and you know what 757 01:04:01,480 --> 01:04:08,960 Speaker 1: I'm talking about, back then they didn't. And also, the 758 01:04:09,000 --> 01:04:17,480 Speaker 1: prevailing medical opinion was basically one that these people were 759 01:04:18,440 --> 01:04:24,800 Speaker 1: a moral defectives in a way that insane people were 760 01:04:24,920 --> 01:04:31,240 Speaker 1: insane um and so they had a brain issue. And 761 01:04:32,160 --> 01:04:38,800 Speaker 1: others thought that the serial killer was and a moral deficiency, 762 01:04:38,840 --> 01:04:44,000 Speaker 1: which obviously we now know well, obviously they do have 763 01:04:44,080 --> 01:04:49,720 Speaker 1: a moral deficiency, but it's not an illness. Um. So 764 01:04:49,840 --> 01:04:53,640 Speaker 1: there was a considerable amount of uncertainty about what serial 765 01:04:53,720 --> 01:04:58,920 Speaker 1: killers were, but it was and for the average man 766 01:04:58,960 --> 01:05:03,840 Speaker 1: in the street. This was a completely new experience. And 767 01:05:04,080 --> 01:05:08,040 Speaker 1: that is where what I suppose you might call the 768 01:05:08,120 --> 01:05:13,120 Speaker 1: beginnings of ripparology lie, because people then the man in 769 01:05:13,120 --> 01:05:19,560 Speaker 1: the street and in the newspapers, uh, trying to speculate 770 01:05:19,960 --> 01:05:23,800 Speaker 1: about the kind of person they thought the murderer was. 771 01:05:25,080 --> 01:05:27,800 Speaker 1: So they weren't coming up with names, but they were 772 01:05:27,840 --> 01:05:34,640 Speaker 1: thinking of things like a deranged doctor, or a mad midwife, uh, 773 01:05:37,480 --> 01:05:43,400 Speaker 1: a religious fanatic. So they were they were trying to 774 01:05:43,640 --> 01:05:49,400 Speaker 1: work out who the murderer was by that kind of method. 775 01:05:50,240 --> 01:05:54,040 Speaker 1: And so that's what and so the and they the 776 01:05:54,160 --> 01:06:00,280 Speaker 1: Nichols and Chapman inquests partly running side by side, meant 777 01:06:00,280 --> 01:06:04,240 Speaker 1: that the press had a lot of time, a lot 778 01:06:04,280 --> 01:06:07,800 Speaker 1: of days in which to speculate about who the murderer 779 01:06:07,920 --> 01:06:10,520 Speaker 1: was and what sort of personally was and what the 780 01:06:10,520 --> 01:06:13,040 Speaker 1: police were doing, and what the police should be doing, 781 01:06:14,000 --> 01:06:18,760 Speaker 1: and what the police weren't doing mhm. And so it 782 01:06:18,880 --> 01:06:26,280 Speaker 1: was all really quite a new form phenomenon really for 783 01:06:26,280 --> 01:06:29,600 Speaker 1: for everybody to be dealing with mm hmm. And then 784 01:06:29,640 --> 01:06:34,640 Speaker 1: we have the dear Boss letter arriving at the press office. 785 01:06:35,600 --> 01:06:37,920 Speaker 1: Can you describe that letter and what effect it had 786 01:06:37,920 --> 01:06:41,920 Speaker 1: on the investigation. Well, there was a news agency called 787 01:06:41,960 --> 01:06:46,440 Speaker 1: Central News and they claimed to have received this letter 788 01:06:46,720 --> 01:06:52,600 Speaker 1: on the seven September and treated it first as a joke, 789 01:06:53,640 --> 01:06:56,960 Speaker 1: but on the twenty nine September they passed it across 790 01:06:57,000 --> 01:07:01,920 Speaker 1: to the to the police and the letter started dear Boss, 791 01:07:02,240 --> 01:07:05,520 Speaker 1: and the text purported to be from the murderer, who 792 01:07:05,560 --> 01:07:09,760 Speaker 1: signed himself Jack the Ripper. And whether or not the 793 01:07:09,760 --> 01:07:13,320 Speaker 1: police actually believed that this letter came from the murderer, 794 01:07:13,800 --> 01:07:17,760 Speaker 1: they gave publicity to the letter, probably just in the 795 01:07:17,840 --> 01:07:21,400 Speaker 1: hope that someone might recognize the handwriting and they could 796 01:07:23,560 --> 01:07:30,840 Speaker 1: investigate from that. The letter did two things. First of all, 797 01:07:30,960 --> 01:07:33,440 Speaker 1: it was the first time the name Jack the Ripper 798 01:07:33,560 --> 01:07:39,040 Speaker 1: was used, and whoever dreamt that up, well they it 799 01:07:39,120 --> 01:07:42,439 Speaker 1: was a work of genius. Really had caught the public's imagination, 800 01:07:43,280 --> 01:07:47,360 Speaker 1: and it continues to do so. Whether or not the 801 01:07:47,440 --> 01:07:51,600 Speaker 1: murders would have been so widely known without it isn't known, 802 01:07:51,680 --> 01:07:54,680 Speaker 1: but it certainly did no harm to the longevity of 803 01:07:54,720 --> 01:07:59,040 Speaker 1: the story. And it also briefly passed into the language 804 01:07:59,080 --> 01:08:03,600 Speaker 1: because people started to threaten to Jack the Ripper somebody, 805 01:08:06,360 --> 01:08:10,960 Speaker 1: and almost any murder bearing the least similarity and to 806 01:08:11,000 --> 01:08:14,880 Speaker 1: be honest sometimes no similarity, were called Jack the Ripper murders. 807 01:08:15,760 --> 01:08:19,360 Speaker 1: The newspapers reported Jack the Ripper murders from all around 808 01:08:19,400 --> 01:08:23,240 Speaker 1: the world. The second thing it did was to spark 809 01:08:23,479 --> 01:08:27,400 Speaker 1: a letter writing bug in thousands of people. So the 810 01:08:27,439 --> 01:08:32,280 Speaker 1: police were deluged with advice from the public and from 811 01:08:32,560 --> 01:08:42,400 Speaker 1: the murderer, or at least so the letters alleged Um 812 01:08:42,479 --> 01:08:48,479 Speaker 1: the Dear Boss was just one of a number of 813 01:08:48,600 --> 01:08:53,080 Speaker 1: letters that made it into print, But not all of 814 01:08:53,120 --> 01:08:58,640 Speaker 1: them were were printed, made their way into the newspapers, 815 01:08:58,680 --> 01:09:00,959 Speaker 1: and in fact it would seem that there were thousands 816 01:09:01,000 --> 01:09:05,840 Speaker 1: of letters were received. In many the writers suggested that 817 01:09:05,880 --> 01:09:09,559 Speaker 1: the murderer was somebody they knew. Others suggested the type 818 01:09:09,560 --> 01:09:12,920 Speaker 1: of person a ripple was a policeman or a doctor, 819 01:09:12,960 --> 01:09:15,960 Speaker 1: as I said, and how aware how and a where 820 01:09:16,040 --> 01:09:19,000 Speaker 1: he might be caught in. In others, people suggested how 821 01:09:19,040 --> 01:09:24,120 Speaker 1: the police should do their job. Others were supposed to 822 01:09:24,120 --> 01:09:27,240 Speaker 1: be from the murderer, and they were jeering or gloating 823 01:09:27,280 --> 01:09:30,920 Speaker 1: about the stupidity of the police, or giving the location 824 01:09:30,960 --> 01:09:35,599 Speaker 1: of where he intended to strike next. And other letters 825 01:09:35,600 --> 01:09:38,680 Speaker 1: were sent to newspapers, and a few were sent to 826 01:09:38,720 --> 01:09:43,799 Speaker 1: private individuals in the latter case. Indeed, a few people 827 01:09:44,360 --> 01:09:47,680 Speaker 1: were even arrested for writing these letters, meant most of 828 01:09:47,720 --> 01:09:50,160 Speaker 1: them thinking that they were being funny when they did so. 829 01:09:51,720 --> 01:10:00,240 Speaker 1: Mhm mhm uh. Would you describe the Saucy Jackie postcard? Yeah? 830 01:10:00,320 --> 01:10:04,639 Speaker 1: The Saucy Jackie postcard was posted to the Central News 831 01:10:04,680 --> 01:10:10,640 Speaker 1: on the first of October. It also addressed the recipient 832 01:10:10,720 --> 01:10:15,719 Speaker 1: as Boss, and other contents suggested that it was written 833 01:10:15,760 --> 01:10:20,080 Speaker 1: by the same person as the Dear Boss letter, and 834 01:10:20,240 --> 01:10:23,439 Speaker 1: the postcard appeared to give details of the murders of 835 01:10:23,479 --> 01:10:28,679 Speaker 1: Elizabeth Stride and Katherine Eddoes that only the killer at 836 01:10:28,720 --> 01:10:33,240 Speaker 1: that time could have could have known. It's now thought 837 01:10:33,280 --> 01:10:38,480 Speaker 1: possible that it could have been posted after the details 838 01:10:38,520 --> 01:10:44,559 Speaker 1: of the murder were published, and neither Dear Boss nor 839 01:10:44,680 --> 01:10:47,760 Speaker 1: Saucy Jackie areb are really now believed to have been 840 01:10:47,760 --> 01:10:54,080 Speaker 1: written by the murderer at all, but they certainly contributed 841 01:10:54,280 --> 01:11:00,519 Speaker 1: considerably to the notoriety of this series of murders. M 842 01:11:00,720 --> 01:11:09,000 Speaker 1: hm hm uh. No, Liz Stride was Swedish. Can you 843 01:11:09,040 --> 01:11:11,720 Speaker 1: describe what what brought her to London? What was her 844 01:11:11,760 --> 01:11:15,240 Speaker 1: life in England like in the years before she ended 845 01:11:15,320 --> 01:11:24,759 Speaker 1: up alone in Whitechapel well, this Stride was registered as 846 01:11:24,800 --> 01:11:30,439 Speaker 1: a prostitute in Sweden, but how and why it isn't 847 01:11:30,479 --> 01:11:38,720 Speaker 1: certainly known. She managed to gain some decent employment in Sweden, 848 01:11:39,080 --> 01:11:44,959 Speaker 1: and um she was she was taken off the prostitute's register, 849 01:11:45,840 --> 01:11:49,759 Speaker 1: and then a small inheritance enabled her to emigrate to London. 850 01:11:51,080 --> 01:11:58,519 Speaker 1: She worked here and then married, and even ran a 851 01:11:58,560 --> 01:12:04,560 Speaker 1: small coffee shop with her husband, but the marriage eventually collapsed. 852 01:12:05,320 --> 01:12:10,800 Speaker 1: Elizabeth had apparently started drinking heavily and this was the 853 01:12:10,840 --> 01:12:15,759 Speaker 1: cause of the breakup. We're told she took to pleading, 854 01:12:15,960 --> 01:12:20,639 Speaker 1: apparently meaning mainly for the Jews, and it was said 855 01:12:20,680 --> 01:12:25,160 Speaker 1: that she could speak Yiddish, but her life spiral downward. 856 01:12:25,280 --> 01:12:29,360 Speaker 1: Her drinking landed her in court on charges of being drunken, 857 01:12:29,360 --> 01:12:36,760 Speaker 1: disorderly and using obscene language on several occasions. There's no 858 01:12:37,360 --> 01:12:43,400 Speaker 1: known record of her being arrested for prostitution, but um 859 01:12:46,400 --> 01:12:50,320 Speaker 1: there's no reason to doubt that, as with many women 860 01:12:50,400 --> 01:12:54,240 Speaker 1: at that time, she could have resorted on them, and 861 01:12:54,280 --> 01:12:59,400 Speaker 1: did resort to prostitution whenever she had when there was 862 01:12:59,439 --> 01:13:03,479 Speaker 1: no other alternative. Somebody said to me many years ago 863 01:13:03,680 --> 01:13:09,120 Speaker 1: that you'd be horrified if you knew what great Granny 864 01:13:09,400 --> 01:13:13,040 Speaker 1: had done in her life to make ends meet, so 865 01:13:13,200 --> 01:13:17,080 Speaker 1: this was not an uncommon thing in the East End. 866 01:13:17,840 --> 01:13:20,880 Speaker 1: But a fellow, a fellow lodger where she stayed from 867 01:13:20,920 --> 01:13:25,960 Speaker 1: time to time told a journalist. He said, when she should, 868 01:13:26,080 --> 01:13:29,120 Speaker 1: when she could get no work, she had to do 869 01:13:29,200 --> 01:13:32,720 Speaker 1: the best she could for a living and so and 870 01:13:32,840 --> 01:13:36,760 Speaker 1: that was in relation to being a a prostitute. But 871 01:13:36,840 --> 01:13:40,920 Speaker 1: he was He was defending and said that she was 872 01:13:42,080 --> 01:13:47,080 Speaker 1: a nicer, cleaner woman you couldn't wish to meet. So, yes, 873 01:13:47,200 --> 01:13:57,519 Speaker 1: she was. This ride was had a tragic life, I think, hm, hm, 874 01:13:58,320 --> 01:14:03,439 Speaker 1: can you describe what Israel Schwartz saw on the night 875 01:14:03,560 --> 01:14:10,000 Speaker 1: of Liz Strides's murder. Israel Schwartz told the police that 876 01:14:10,080 --> 01:14:15,080 Speaker 1: he had been walking home at night. A short distance 877 01:14:15,120 --> 01:14:17,800 Speaker 1: ahead of him was was a man, and that man 878 01:14:17,920 --> 01:14:21,160 Speaker 1: turned into Burner Street, which was also the direction in 879 01:14:21,240 --> 01:14:26,080 Speaker 1: Schwartz was going, so he followed him in a little 880 01:14:26,160 --> 01:14:28,599 Speaker 1: up the way. Up the road, there was a lone woman. 881 01:14:29,000 --> 01:14:32,000 Speaker 1: The man ahead of Schwartz stopped. There may have been 882 01:14:32,040 --> 01:14:36,639 Speaker 1: a brief exchange of words, we we don't know, and 883 01:14:36,720 --> 01:14:39,880 Speaker 1: then the man pulled a woman into the street and 884 01:14:40,200 --> 01:14:44,240 Speaker 1: threw her to the ground. She gave a low scream, 885 01:14:44,840 --> 01:14:48,000 Speaker 1: and a Schwartz, thinking it was a domestic and not 886 01:14:48,160 --> 01:14:51,960 Speaker 1: wanting to get involved, across the street and hurried away. 887 01:14:52,040 --> 01:14:54,839 Speaker 1: As he did so, the man shouted out what sounded 888 01:14:54,880 --> 01:15:00,120 Speaker 1: like Lipski, and Schwartz ran off, just seeing another and 889 01:15:00,360 --> 01:15:06,720 Speaker 1: holding what he seriously described as a knife or a pipe. 890 01:15:07,360 --> 01:15:10,200 Speaker 1: The attack had taken place very close to the spot 891 01:15:10,200 --> 01:15:15,120 Speaker 1: where Elizabeth Stride was found dead, and had taken place 892 01:15:15,200 --> 01:15:19,439 Speaker 1: about fifteen minutes before her body had been discovered. It 893 01:15:19,479 --> 01:15:23,840 Speaker 1: was therefore possible that Schwartz had seen the run up 894 01:15:23,880 --> 01:15:29,640 Speaker 1: to the murder and the murderer mhm mhm. So in 895 01:15:29,800 --> 01:15:33,720 Speaker 1: terms of the case as a whole, and in terms 896 01:15:33,760 --> 01:15:39,680 Speaker 1: of trying to identify a suspect on the part of 897 01:15:39,680 --> 01:15:46,880 Speaker 1: the police prevent further killings, how important was Israel Schwartz 898 01:15:47,000 --> 01:15:52,120 Speaker 1: as a witness for having seen these events. It's very 899 01:15:52,120 --> 01:15:57,599 Speaker 1: difficult to say how important Israel Schwartz was. He wasn't 900 01:15:57,640 --> 01:16:02,719 Speaker 1: called to the inquest, which perhaps suggests that what Schwartz 901 01:16:02,760 --> 01:16:07,479 Speaker 1: witnessed had nothing to do with the murder, or that 902 01:16:07,600 --> 01:16:11,080 Speaker 1: it was this decided he was lying and the assault 903 01:16:11,160 --> 01:16:15,200 Speaker 1: never took place. Whether or not he witnessed an assault 904 01:16:15,240 --> 01:16:20,960 Speaker 1: on Elizabeth Stride. He was nevertheless a witness if he 905 01:16:21,040 --> 01:16:24,280 Speaker 1: was telling the truth to what was going on in 906 01:16:24,320 --> 01:16:29,120 Speaker 1: the streets shortly before Stride's body was found, So in theory, 907 01:16:29,200 --> 01:16:33,000 Speaker 1: he should have been called to give evidence. But of course, 908 01:16:33,080 --> 01:16:35,360 Speaker 1: if the police thought that he wasn't telling the truth, 909 01:16:35,400 --> 01:16:38,519 Speaker 1: then he had nothing relevant to say if he wasn't 910 01:16:38,560 --> 01:16:42,760 Speaker 1: in burning streets at the time. But however, we know 911 01:16:42,840 --> 01:16:47,639 Speaker 1: that another street witness in the street who had also 912 01:16:47,760 --> 01:16:52,320 Speaker 1: seen nothing, but whose testimony was relevant to what was 913 01:16:52,400 --> 01:16:55,920 Speaker 1: happening or rather not happening in Burna Street at the 914 01:16:55,920 --> 01:17:00,200 Speaker 1: time of the murders. She wasn't called either. So it's 915 01:17:00,240 --> 01:17:03,599 Speaker 1: possible that the police were keeping Schwartz under wraps, which 916 01:17:03,960 --> 01:17:08,920 Speaker 1: they shouldn't really have done and assuming they were doing it, 917 01:17:09,400 --> 01:17:13,200 Speaker 1: or or rather they shouldn't have done it, assuming that 918 01:17:13,240 --> 01:17:16,919 Speaker 1: they did it at all, or it's possible that Schwartz 919 01:17:16,920 --> 01:17:21,200 Speaker 1: gave his testimony and camera or off the public record, 920 01:17:21,640 --> 01:17:24,360 Speaker 1: or finally that he had gone to ground and the 921 01:17:24,400 --> 01:17:32,840 Speaker 1: police couldn't find him. So basically, if Schwartz was telling 922 01:17:32,840 --> 01:17:40,880 Speaker 1: the truth, then his testimony would be important. Obviously, if 923 01:17:40,880 --> 01:17:46,040 Speaker 1: he wasn't telling the truth, his testimony was unimportant if 924 01:17:46,040 --> 01:17:48,760 Speaker 1: he had been in the street at the time he 925 01:17:48,840 --> 01:17:53,120 Speaker 1: said he was, but hadn't seen the assault on stride, 926 01:17:53,200 --> 01:17:57,320 Speaker 1: his testimony was still relevant because he was there shortly 927 01:17:57,360 --> 01:18:01,599 Speaker 1: before the murders were committed. However, Sir Robert Anderson, who 928 01:18:01,680 --> 01:18:03,519 Speaker 1: was the head of the c i D at the time, 929 01:18:04,400 --> 01:18:08,880 Speaker 1: said in his memoirs written in that Jack the Ripper 930 01:18:08,920 --> 01:18:14,679 Speaker 1: had been positively identified by an eye witness, the only 931 01:18:14,800 --> 01:18:18,960 Speaker 1: person who ever had a good view of the murderer. 932 01:18:20,240 --> 01:18:24,640 Speaker 1: This person had refused to give evidence because the murderer 933 01:18:24,800 --> 01:18:30,759 Speaker 1: was a Jew like himself. So we are being told 934 01:18:30,800 --> 01:18:33,200 Speaker 1: by Sir Robert Anderson that the witness was a Jew 935 01:18:33,360 --> 01:18:36,080 Speaker 1: and that he had a good view of the murderer. 936 01:18:37,120 --> 01:18:40,760 Speaker 1: We know of only two men who saw a man 937 01:18:40,920 --> 01:18:45,840 Speaker 1: with a woman identified as a victim, a man called Novender, 938 01:18:45,880 --> 01:18:48,960 Speaker 1: who was one of the three men who passed a 939 01:18:49,000 --> 01:18:55,679 Speaker 1: woman they identified as Catherine Eddoes, and Israel Schwartz. By 940 01:18:55,800 --> 01:19:00,000 Speaker 1: no stretch of the imagination could Levender genuinely be described 941 01:19:00,000 --> 01:19:03,840 Speaker 1: aimed as having had a good view of the murderer. 942 01:19:06,320 --> 01:19:14,519 Speaker 1: So that means that the only Jewish eye witness to 943 01:19:14,840 --> 01:19:23,040 Speaker 1: anything that we know about was Israel Schwartz. So either 944 01:19:23,360 --> 01:19:30,880 Speaker 1: Anderson's story confirms what Schwartz said and also means that 945 01:19:30,960 --> 01:19:39,840 Speaker 1: Schwartz was Anderson's eyewitness, or the whole thing is open 946 01:19:39,920 --> 01:19:48,559 Speaker 1: to serious doubt. Mhm mhm. Now, in that in that 947 01:19:48,680 --> 01:19:53,959 Speaker 1: story that that Schwartz tells, there's that shout of of Lipsky. 948 01:19:55,400 --> 01:20:00,719 Speaker 1: Can you describe the Lipsky case that he is probably 949 01:20:00,760 --> 01:20:08,080 Speaker 1: referring to? There? Yes, very briefly, Israel Lipsky lived in 950 01:20:08,479 --> 01:20:13,160 Speaker 1: Batty Street, which was a street adjacent to Burner Street, 951 01:20:13,760 --> 01:20:18,280 Speaker 1: which is where Stride was murdered. A fellow lodger in 952 01:20:18,280 --> 01:20:24,080 Speaker 1: the house was a young woman named Miriam Angel, and 953 01:20:24,160 --> 01:20:30,120 Speaker 1: in June of she was poisoned with nitric acid. On 954 01:20:30,320 --> 01:20:35,240 Speaker 1: nitric acid, it also appears that Lipsky had tried to 955 01:20:35,240 --> 01:20:39,960 Speaker 1: commit suicide by drinking the acid too, but he didn't die, 956 01:20:40,360 --> 01:20:43,960 Speaker 1: and when he had recovered, he was charged and tried 957 01:20:44,040 --> 01:20:49,559 Speaker 1: and convicted of murdering Miriam Angel. He denied having done so, 958 01:20:50,120 --> 01:20:54,960 Speaker 1: and a lot of people believed him, but the jury 959 01:20:55,040 --> 01:20:59,240 Speaker 1: wasn't amongst them, and he was sentenced to hang. There 960 01:20:59,280 --> 01:21:04,440 Speaker 1: was a great deal of effort to try and persuade 961 01:21:04,439 --> 01:21:09,280 Speaker 1: the Home Secretary to commute the sentence. But Henry Matthews 962 01:21:09,320 --> 01:21:15,240 Speaker 1: refused to do so, and Lipsky then wrote a confession 963 01:21:16,000 --> 01:21:20,040 Speaker 1: shortly before he went to the gallows. Many people still 964 01:21:20,240 --> 01:21:26,400 Speaker 1: entertained doubt about his guilt. However, the name we're told 965 01:21:26,960 --> 01:21:32,040 Speaker 1: that the main Dame Lipsky, was briefly used as a 966 01:21:32,439 --> 01:21:38,280 Speaker 1: term of insult. So uh it is to be assumed 967 01:21:38,320 --> 01:21:45,880 Speaker 1: that the man who Schwartz are attacking a woman was 968 01:21:46,479 --> 01:21:56,360 Speaker 1: making a remark about Schwartz's appearance. M hm hm um. 969 01:21:56,400 --> 01:22:01,200 Speaker 1: From that same night when with Dry was killed, can 970 01:22:01,240 --> 01:22:05,880 Speaker 1: you describe Leon Goldstein and what he contributed to what 971 01:22:06,080 --> 01:22:08,760 Speaker 1: came to be the public image of Jack the Ripper. 972 01:22:10,880 --> 01:22:15,439 Speaker 1: Around the time Elizabeth Stride was murdered, a man was 973 01:22:15,479 --> 01:22:19,759 Speaker 1: seen in the street. He carried a black bag, and 974 01:22:20,240 --> 01:22:25,320 Speaker 1: fortunately a man named Leon Goldstein recognized the description of 975 01:22:25,400 --> 01:22:28,200 Speaker 1: himself in the newspaper and went along to the police. 976 01:22:29,240 --> 01:22:33,280 Speaker 1: The contents of his black bag were utterly harmless, and 977 01:22:33,400 --> 01:22:38,200 Speaker 1: Mr Goldstein went on his way, But his black bag 978 01:22:38,280 --> 01:22:41,360 Speaker 1: stayed in the public's mind and added to the image 979 01:22:41,520 --> 01:22:45,519 Speaker 1: of the top the the upper class gent with a 980 01:22:45,640 --> 01:22:50,439 Speaker 1: top hat, wearing a cape, and always carrying a black bag. 981 01:22:51,960 --> 01:22:55,120 Speaker 1: The bag is iconic in the story of Jack the 982 01:22:55,240 --> 01:22:59,880 Speaker 1: Ripper as much as the deer Stalker hat is icon 983 01:23:00,040 --> 01:23:04,360 Speaker 1: nick in the image of Sherlock Holmes. So Leon Goldstein 984 01:23:04,720 --> 01:23:09,479 Speaker 1: inadvertently gave rise to this, this myth of the black Bag, 985 01:23:09,840 --> 01:23:13,479 Speaker 1: and the police didn't help because they never released the 986 01:23:13,479 --> 01:23:16,920 Speaker 1: story of Mr Goldstein too the press, so it was 987 01:23:16,960 --> 01:23:21,759 Speaker 1: never significantly reported. M Hm. When was it that that 988 01:23:21,840 --> 01:23:25,120 Speaker 1: the story that the police knew from their conversation with 989 01:23:25,160 --> 01:23:28,800 Speaker 1: Goldstein finally did become public so that you and I 990 01:23:28,800 --> 01:23:33,120 Speaker 1: could know about it today. Well, that's that's known as 991 01:23:33,120 --> 01:23:37,240 Speaker 1: a consequence of the since the release of the police files, 992 01:23:38,120 --> 01:23:42,080 Speaker 1: because they were they were kept private until the nineteen seventies, 993 01:23:42,120 --> 01:23:48,120 Speaker 1: so that's part of the information that's coming to light 994 01:23:48,640 --> 01:23:57,080 Speaker 1: in these recent years. It's worthwhile remembering that up until 995 01:23:57,880 --> 01:24:04,479 Speaker 1: really the year two thousand, research into Jack the Ripper 996 01:24:04,600 --> 01:24:10,240 Speaker 1: and his crimes was severely curtailed by the fact that 997 01:24:11,840 --> 01:24:17,320 Speaker 1: police files were closed. The newspaper library was in effect 998 01:24:17,479 --> 01:24:20,479 Speaker 1: was in London, which effectively meant that anybody not living 999 01:24:20,560 --> 01:24:26,160 Speaker 1: in or near London had to make a major sacrifice 1000 01:24:26,200 --> 01:24:29,759 Speaker 1: to get there to to look through the newspaper files. 1001 01:24:31,520 --> 01:24:37,320 Speaker 1: So researching Jack the Ripper was with which you know, 1002 01:24:37,640 --> 01:24:41,760 Speaker 1: has been done by private individuals, not people with with 1003 01:24:41,840 --> 01:24:45,920 Speaker 1: tons of money and lots of spare time, and done 1004 01:24:45,920 --> 01:24:52,400 Speaker 1: when they are also trying to Very often they have 1005 01:24:52,479 --> 01:24:58,120 Speaker 1: a job, full employment, and there maybe a family and 1006 01:24:58,240 --> 01:25:01,240 Speaker 1: family demands, so they weren't able to go off and 1007 01:25:01,240 --> 01:25:09,000 Speaker 1: do all these things. But from two thousand, UH, we've 1008 01:25:09,080 --> 01:25:14,639 Speaker 1: benefited greatly from the vast you know, the genealogical records 1009 01:25:14,680 --> 01:25:19,160 Speaker 1: that have been made available on sites like Ancestry, and 1010 01:25:19,360 --> 01:25:25,200 Speaker 1: the massive digitalization of newspapers which is going on in 1011 01:25:25,280 --> 01:25:27,760 Speaker 1: America and here and elsewhere in the world, which has 1012 01:25:27,880 --> 01:25:34,679 Speaker 1: opened up, uh, a huge range of information that prior 1013 01:25:34,720 --> 01:25:43,160 Speaker 1: to two thousand people didn't have access to. And the 1014 01:25:43,240 --> 01:25:46,840 Speaker 1: search facilities available on the computers have made looking for 1015 01:25:46,880 --> 01:25:51,639 Speaker 1: information so much easier, and with a click of a button, 1016 01:25:51,680 --> 01:25:55,960 Speaker 1: I can now find records that it would maybe have 1017 01:25:56,040 --> 01:25:59,680 Speaker 1: taken me a week to find twenty years ago that 1018 01:25:59,800 --> 01:26:04,040 Speaker 1: one twenty years ago, thirty or forty years ago, So 1019 01:26:04,120 --> 01:26:09,679 Speaker 1: there's a big difference there. And also in two thousand m. 1020 01:26:09,800 --> 01:26:13,639 Speaker 1: Stewart Evans and Keith skin Are published a book which 1021 01:26:13,680 --> 01:26:19,080 Speaker 1: contained all the police files which hitherto had again only 1022 01:26:19,120 --> 01:26:25,599 Speaker 1: been available to people living in or near London who 1023 01:26:25,360 --> 01:26:29,760 Speaker 1: who could see them at the Public Record Office. There 1024 01:26:29,800 --> 01:26:33,000 Speaker 1: are a few people, myself being one of them, who 1025 01:26:33,120 --> 01:26:37,760 Speaker 1: was lucky enough to be able to buy a photocopy 1026 01:26:37,800 --> 01:26:41,920 Speaker 1: of the entire files, but that cost about a thousand 1027 01:26:42,000 --> 01:26:45,840 Speaker 1: over a thousand pounds, and that was back in when 1028 01:26:45,840 --> 01:26:49,080 Speaker 1: a thousand pounds was worth. However, a lot more have 1029 01:26:49,200 --> 01:26:54,760 Speaker 1: had a bigger buying power than it does today. So 1030 01:26:55,320 --> 01:27:02,160 Speaker 1: when people say, oh, you know that reparologists aren't doing, 1031 01:27:02,680 --> 01:27:05,640 Speaker 1: haven't haven't really paid an awful lot of attention to 1032 01:27:06,840 --> 01:27:10,519 Speaker 1: the people involved in the victims and everything. That's because 1033 01:27:10,560 --> 01:27:14,639 Speaker 1: we haven't really had access to the source materials until 1034 01:27:15,920 --> 01:27:24,920 Speaker 1: relatively recently. M hm m hm um. And I really 1035 01:27:24,960 --> 01:27:30,160 Speaker 1: commend your your book Forgotten Victims to anyone who does 1036 01:27:30,200 --> 01:27:34,320 Speaker 1: want to undertake thinking along those lines. And I think 1037 01:27:34,360 --> 01:27:36,400 Speaker 1: you've done such a good job with with that book 1038 01:27:37,360 --> 01:27:42,000 Speaker 1: in talking about a number of murders that happened over 1039 01:27:42,000 --> 01:27:44,400 Speaker 1: a span of time, including the Jackie Ripper murders, and 1040 01:27:44,439 --> 01:27:51,320 Speaker 1: discussing with some sensitivity, um, how stories about especially you know, 1041 01:27:51,720 --> 01:27:56,080 Speaker 1: favored suspects and the identity of possible murders uh includes 1042 01:27:56,200 --> 01:28:00,200 Speaker 1: or excludes consideration of the lives of women and who 1043 01:28:00,280 --> 01:28:05,040 Speaker 1: lived and died in the East End in the eighties. Um. 1044 01:28:05,120 --> 01:28:07,280 Speaker 1: I thought, you know, in some ways it is a 1045 01:28:07,280 --> 01:28:11,320 Speaker 1: hard subject, but in some ways I found in a 1046 01:28:11,320 --> 01:28:16,839 Speaker 1: beautiful book and I'm really grateful for that one, thank you. Um. 1047 01:28:16,880 --> 01:28:21,519 Speaker 1: There's a there's a footnote in that book, uh, about 1048 01:28:21,560 --> 01:28:26,679 Speaker 1: the life of Katherine Eddos that she had attended her 1049 01:28:26,760 --> 01:28:32,720 Speaker 1: cousin's public hanging in eighteen sixties six. Um. Can you 1050 01:28:32,760 --> 01:28:38,000 Speaker 1: describe that event and the resulting Gallows ballad chat book 1051 01:28:38,160 --> 01:28:41,200 Speaker 1: about Christopher Robinson that was a part of who Katherine 1052 01:28:41,280 --> 01:28:47,840 Speaker 1: Eddos was in the years before her murder. Well, um, uh, 1053 01:28:48,160 --> 01:28:51,880 Speaker 1: not not a great deal really about that. It was 1054 01:28:52,200 --> 01:28:58,920 Speaker 1: passing passing statement that was made about Katherine Eddos that 1055 01:28:59,040 --> 01:29:07,040 Speaker 1: she had gone to witness the execution of her relative. 1056 01:29:09,120 --> 01:29:15,120 Speaker 1: The story basically is that Eddoes and the man that 1057 01:29:15,160 --> 01:29:22,800 Speaker 1: she was living with at the time, he was, as 1058 01:29:22,800 --> 01:29:26,000 Speaker 1: far as we can tell, the one who apparently wrote 1059 01:29:26,040 --> 01:29:31,519 Speaker 1: these little books and they were cheap almost sort of 1060 01:29:31,560 --> 01:29:37,080 Speaker 1: pamphlets really that that described events that had happened in 1061 01:29:37,439 --> 01:29:41,479 Speaker 1: very often in rhyme of some sort. Uh, and the 1062 01:29:42,040 --> 01:29:45,559 Speaker 1: as you said, Gallows ballads, and they had gone to 1063 01:29:45,680 --> 01:29:50,960 Speaker 1: witness this execution, and they had produced one of the ballads. 1064 01:29:52,160 --> 01:29:58,719 Speaker 1: Whether this story is absolutely true or not, and whether 1065 01:29:58,760 --> 01:30:06,320 Speaker 1: they were produced in these books again, um, we really 1066 01:30:07,600 --> 01:30:10,640 Speaker 1: we really don't know. I don't know. The trouble is 1067 01:30:10,680 --> 01:30:16,120 Speaker 1: that very few of these things have survived. They were 1068 01:30:18,360 --> 01:30:23,559 Speaker 1: almost throw away things when they were created, So it's 1069 01:30:23,680 --> 01:30:28,599 Speaker 1: very difficult to to know. And I haven't actually seen, 1070 01:30:30,200 --> 01:30:39,040 Speaker 1: uh seen any ballad relating to and as relative mhm, mhm. 1071 01:30:39,080 --> 01:30:42,559 Speaker 1: Would you describe for us the events that occurred in 1072 01:30:42,640 --> 01:30:54,200 Speaker 1: Minor Square right? Um? Well, and about one five in 1073 01:30:54,280 --> 01:31:00,240 Speaker 1: the morning, uh PC. Edward Watkins was on his eat, 1074 01:31:00,520 --> 01:31:05,599 Speaker 1: which took him into Mica Square, which was a small 1075 01:31:05,640 --> 01:31:11,040 Speaker 1: square with with three entrances. In the shadows of the 1076 01:31:11,080 --> 01:31:15,559 Speaker 1: southwest corner, he saw the body of Katherine Edo's. It 1077 01:31:15,680 --> 01:31:20,679 Speaker 1: emerged that about ten minutes earlier, three men had passed 1078 01:31:20,720 --> 01:31:25,160 Speaker 1: one of the entrances to Mica Square and had there 1079 01:31:25,160 --> 01:31:29,080 Speaker 1: seen a woman talking to a man. Two of the 1080 01:31:29,120 --> 01:31:33,200 Speaker 1: men walking past would later identify the woman by her 1081 01:31:33,280 --> 01:31:37,880 Speaker 1: clothing as Katherine Eddo's, and one of those men was 1082 01:31:38,200 --> 01:31:44,000 Speaker 1: the man that I mentioned earlier, Joseph Lavender. Um, Now, 1083 01:31:44,080 --> 01:31:47,519 Speaker 1: it's very likely that they did see Katherine Eddos with 1084 01:31:47,600 --> 01:31:52,960 Speaker 1: a murderer, but it is equally likely that the woman 1085 01:31:53,080 --> 01:31:57,280 Speaker 1: was not Katherine Eddo's, or even if it was Eddos, 1086 01:31:57,880 --> 01:32:01,400 Speaker 1: that the man had just been accosted by her when 1087 01:32:01,400 --> 01:32:04,920 Speaker 1: the three men walked by, and had disengaged himself and 1088 01:32:05,000 --> 01:32:11,439 Speaker 1: walked on, leaving heads to meet Jack the Ripple. So again, 1089 01:32:11,520 --> 01:32:14,320 Speaker 1: as with all of these cases, there are lots of 1090 01:32:14,439 --> 01:32:19,800 Speaker 1: variable So they did see a woman. She they did 1091 01:32:20,000 --> 01:32:23,479 Speaker 1: recognize her and identify her by a fairly distinctive clothing 1092 01:32:24,240 --> 01:32:30,320 Speaker 1: as being Edos. So they probably did see Eddoes with somebody. 1093 01:32:30,400 --> 01:32:38,960 Speaker 1: But there was a small margin of time during which 1094 01:32:39,800 --> 01:32:43,200 Speaker 1: the man that they saw could have left her, And 1095 01:32:43,880 --> 01:32:48,679 Speaker 1: if she had wandered into the shadows of Might Square, 1096 01:32:48,800 --> 01:32:52,719 Speaker 1: then she might well have encounter Jack the Ripper looking there, 1097 01:32:53,960 --> 01:32:57,880 Speaker 1: listening to everything that had gone on, and maybe proposition 1098 01:32:57,880 --> 01:33:01,439 Speaker 1: to her there and then so we can't say that 1099 01:33:01,520 --> 01:33:07,120 Speaker 1: the man that she was with was the murderer. M 1100 01:33:07,320 --> 01:33:11,840 Speaker 1: hm hm. Can you describe the way that the location 1101 01:33:12,080 --> 01:33:22,040 Speaker 1: of Miter Square complicated the investigation? I assume you mean 1102 01:33:22,160 --> 01:33:25,160 Speaker 1: that the murderer of Mita Square in Mighty Square was 1103 01:33:25,200 --> 01:33:29,200 Speaker 1: committed in the jurisdiction of the City of London Police. 1104 01:33:30,880 --> 01:33:35,280 Speaker 1: Many people don't realize that London actually has two police forces. 1105 01:33:35,439 --> 01:33:39,880 Speaker 1: The central part of London, the business district known as 1106 01:33:39,920 --> 01:33:44,479 Speaker 1: the Square Mile, is the jurisdiction of the City of 1107 01:33:44,600 --> 01:33:52,360 Speaker 1: London Police and the Metropolitan Police Orange, whose headquarters are 1108 01:33:52,400 --> 01:33:55,920 Speaker 1: at Scotland Yard, have charge of the rest. So the 1109 01:33:56,040 --> 01:34:03,280 Speaker 1: murderer murder of Catharine Eddos introduced two forces, two sets 1110 01:34:03,320 --> 01:34:09,360 Speaker 1: of inquiries. Um, they liaised with one another, but we 1111 01:34:09,560 --> 01:34:14,160 Speaker 1: don't know for certain how well. There were some complaints 1112 01:34:14,200 --> 01:34:17,240 Speaker 1: to the effect that the City Police weren't passing across 1113 01:34:17,320 --> 01:34:24,600 Speaker 1: all the information. Um. There may well have been complaints 1114 01:34:24,600 --> 01:34:27,760 Speaker 1: by the City Police and that the network passing over 1115 01:34:27,800 --> 01:34:31,520 Speaker 1: all the information. But unfortunately all the City Police files 1116 01:34:32,160 --> 01:34:35,639 Speaker 1: on this case were destroyed in the bombing of World 1117 01:34:35,680 --> 01:34:40,280 Speaker 1: War two, so we don't have any of the police, 1118 01:34:41,080 --> 01:34:45,160 Speaker 1: the City Police documentation telling us anything, any snippets of 1119 01:34:45,200 --> 01:34:55,680 Speaker 1: inside information. Mhm hm, yeah, that's all us. Um. Can 1120 01:34:55,720 --> 01:35:01,120 Speaker 1: you describe describe that the Gholston Street graffido and Charles 1121 01:35:01,120 --> 01:35:09,479 Speaker 1: Warren's reaction to it. Yeah, A piece of apron seems 1122 01:35:09,520 --> 01:35:13,439 Speaker 1: to have been torn from the apron that Katharine Edos 1123 01:35:13,600 --> 01:35:18,000 Speaker 1: was was wearing uh and that that piece of apron 1124 01:35:18,080 --> 01:35:21,759 Speaker 1: was was later found in a sort of covered entrance 1125 01:35:21,880 --> 01:35:26,599 Speaker 1: to some stairs leading to the landings of several flats 1126 01:35:27,640 --> 01:35:32,920 Speaker 1: or apartments. The eight piece of apron was smeared with 1127 01:35:32,960 --> 01:35:35,800 Speaker 1: blood and it appears to have been taken by the 1128 01:35:35,880 --> 01:35:40,479 Speaker 1: murderer to wipe his hands or knife. Above it on 1129 01:35:40,640 --> 01:35:44,880 Speaker 1: the wall, there's some writing in short which said something 1130 01:35:44,920 --> 01:35:47,920 Speaker 1: along the lines of the Jews are not the men 1131 01:35:48,080 --> 01:35:52,840 Speaker 1: to be blamed for nothing. The odd thing was that 1132 01:35:53,040 --> 01:35:58,080 Speaker 1: Jews were spelt j u w e s. We don't 1133 01:35:58,080 --> 01:36:01,080 Speaker 1: know whether that meant something or it was us playing 1134 01:36:01,080 --> 01:36:06,040 Speaker 1: and ordinary misspelling. Anyway, ever since the leather apron business, 1135 01:36:06,120 --> 01:36:11,479 Speaker 1: there was growing animosity towards the Jews and in this area, 1136 01:36:13,640 --> 01:36:18,160 Speaker 1: and the head of the head of h Division while 1137 01:36:18,280 --> 01:36:23,639 Speaker 1: Superintendent Thomas Arnold, and he concluded that the writing had 1138 01:36:23,680 --> 01:36:27,440 Speaker 1: nothing to do with the murderer, but he was concerned 1139 01:36:27,479 --> 01:36:33,719 Speaker 1: that the message might incite further anti Jewish unrest. It 1140 01:36:33,880 --> 01:36:39,040 Speaker 1: was a genuine concern because we know that fifty extra 1141 01:36:39,120 --> 01:36:42,840 Speaker 1: policemen were drafted into the area the next day to 1142 01:36:42,960 --> 01:36:47,600 Speaker 1: deal with any trouble. MHM Arnold wanted to have the 1143 01:36:47,720 --> 01:36:53,800 Speaker 1: writing erased he had already got a man with a 1144 01:36:53,800 --> 01:36:59,599 Speaker 1: wet sponge ready to wipe the wall clean. And Sir 1145 01:36:59,680 --> 01:37:04,160 Speaker 1: Charles Warren, the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, recognizing the 1146 01:37:04,320 --> 01:37:09,520 Speaker 1: seriousness of erasing what could have been the murderer's handwriting, 1147 01:37:12,120 --> 01:37:18,559 Speaker 1: carefully listened to Arnold's concerns and took the responsibility of 1148 01:37:18,720 --> 01:37:22,240 Speaker 1: giving the order to wipe off the joke writing. He 1149 01:37:22,320 --> 01:37:27,439 Speaker 1: took that responsibility upon himself, so that basically he'd get 1150 01:37:27,439 --> 01:37:33,640 Speaker 1: the blame and not Ah, not Thomas Arnold. So I 1151 01:37:33,680 --> 01:37:37,160 Speaker 1: think that gives an insight, a little insight into Charles 1152 01:37:37,160 --> 01:37:46,120 Speaker 1: Warren's character there anyway. Uh. Later commentators, including policemen such 1153 01:37:46,160 --> 01:37:52,320 Speaker 1: as Sir Robert Anderson, decided that Warren's actions were wrong 1154 01:37:52,479 --> 01:37:58,920 Speaker 1: and described them as cross dupidity um. And we're of 1155 01:37:58,920 --> 01:38:02,240 Speaker 1: the opinion that war and had destroyed the only clue 1156 01:38:02,320 --> 01:38:06,439 Speaker 1: ever to be left by the murderer. Their fairness to Warren, 1157 01:38:07,880 --> 01:38:12,639 Speaker 1: Superintendent Arnold had recommended the range, and as I said, 1158 01:38:12,680 --> 01:38:16,760 Speaker 1: had been a waiting about to give the order himself. 1159 01:38:18,840 --> 01:38:24,719 Speaker 1: His concerns about the message perhaps barking anti Jewish unrest 1160 01:38:24,720 --> 01:38:30,120 Speaker 1: were genuine, So Warren really had very little option but 1161 01:38:30,240 --> 01:38:34,920 Speaker 1: to accept that that the anxieties of the man in 1162 01:38:35,040 --> 01:38:37,800 Speaker 1: charge of that part of London. Arnold knew it far 1163 01:38:37,840 --> 01:38:43,760 Speaker 1: better than Warren did, and Arnold also didn't believe that 1164 01:38:43,800 --> 01:38:48,040 Speaker 1: the writing had any connection with the crimes. So Ever 1165 01:38:48,120 --> 01:38:56,640 Speaker 1: since then people have argued about whether the apron and 1166 01:38:56,680 --> 01:39:01,599 Speaker 1: the writing were connected or not, what did the writing mean, 1167 01:39:01,800 --> 01:39:04,320 Speaker 1: and if they were connected, what did the writing mean 1168 01:39:04,640 --> 01:39:09,879 Speaker 1: and so on, So it's all a bit in the conundrum. 1169 01:39:09,920 --> 01:39:14,960 Speaker 1: So would you describe for us the speculation of Dr 1170 01:39:15,200 --> 01:39:22,960 Speaker 1: Frederick Gordon Brown when he examined Katherine Eddo's body. Dr 1171 01:39:23,160 --> 01:39:27,160 Speaker 1: Frederick Gordon Brown was the police surgeon who conducted the 1172 01:39:27,360 --> 01:39:32,080 Speaker 1: autopsy on Katherine Eddo's A kidney had been removed from 1173 01:39:32,280 --> 01:39:36,960 Speaker 1: Katherine Eddos and apparently taken away by the murderer. Dr 1174 01:39:37,000 --> 01:39:40,559 Speaker 1: Brown concluded that the removal of the kidneys suggested that 1175 01:39:40,600 --> 01:39:46,160 Speaker 1: the murderer possessed anatomical knowledge, and to have successfully removed it, 1176 01:39:47,000 --> 01:39:48,720 Speaker 1: he thought that he must have had a degree of 1177 01:39:48,760 --> 01:39:54,000 Speaker 1: surgical skill. Other doctors who had examined the other victims 1178 01:39:54,080 --> 01:39:59,000 Speaker 1: did not necessarily agree, and some said that the ripper 1179 01:39:59,120 --> 01:40:02,799 Speaker 1: didn't even possess us the skill of the butcher. However, 1180 01:40:03,160 --> 01:40:07,439 Speaker 1: Dr Brown's opinion fired what's perhaps the most popular theory 1181 01:40:08,120 --> 01:40:12,520 Speaker 1: about Jack the Rippon, namely that he was a deranged doctor. 1182 01:40:14,240 --> 01:40:21,519 Speaker 1: Mhm h M. Can you describe the White Chapel Vigilance Committee, um, 1183 01:40:21,600 --> 01:40:25,439 Speaker 1: and what led the committee to dissolve towards the end 1184 01:40:25,439 --> 01:40:29,360 Speaker 1: of October. On October, a lot of the residents in 1185 01:40:29,400 --> 01:40:34,880 Speaker 1: the East End were dissatisfied with the police investigation and 1186 01:40:35,200 --> 01:40:42,519 Speaker 1: they that this and those especially those with businesses, formed 1187 01:40:42,520 --> 01:40:46,400 Speaker 1: together to offer a reward and to assist the policeman 1188 01:40:46,439 --> 01:40:50,360 Speaker 1: on their beat by patrolling the streets, keeping an eye 1189 01:40:50,360 --> 01:40:55,519 Speaker 1: out for suspicious men and reporting any they observed. They 1190 01:40:55,560 --> 01:41:00,320 Speaker 1: were called the White Chapel Vigilance Committee. Uh. They were 1191 01:41:00,400 --> 01:41:07,000 Speaker 1: not as they are sometimes described vigilantes. Uh. Maybe the 1192 01:41:07,080 --> 01:41:10,160 Speaker 1: same roots of the word, but they weren't taking the 1193 01:41:10,240 --> 01:41:14,720 Speaker 1: law into their own hands. They were merely keeping an 1194 01:41:14,760 --> 01:41:20,640 Speaker 1: eye open. They were being vigilant m hm hm um. 1195 01:41:20,680 --> 01:41:24,320 Speaker 1: And despite the dissatisfaction with the police at the time 1196 01:41:24,360 --> 01:41:28,240 Speaker 1: that the Vigilance Committee was formed, um, And you mentioned 1197 01:41:28,240 --> 01:41:31,599 Speaker 1: earlier there is a major mobilization of the police in 1198 01:41:31,640 --> 01:41:36,760 Speaker 1: Whitechapel in October. Um, how would you describe that operation? 1199 01:41:36,840 --> 01:41:43,720 Speaker 1: That's undertaken well. Basically, the the the police had very 1200 01:41:43,760 --> 01:41:49,920 Speaker 1: little option but to catch the catch Jack the ripper 1201 01:41:50,000 --> 01:41:55,560 Speaker 1: in in the act. Uh. And so therefore they drafted 1202 01:41:55,880 --> 01:42:00,280 Speaker 1: police into the area in large numbers from other arts 1203 01:42:00,280 --> 01:42:03,840 Speaker 1: of London. As ever, of course there were issues with 1204 01:42:03,960 --> 01:42:10,200 Speaker 1: regarding the um the cost of this exercise, so they 1205 01:42:10,240 --> 01:42:13,120 Speaker 1: were they they came in and then as things quiet 1206 01:42:13,120 --> 01:42:15,040 Speaker 1: and they were moved out, and then they will move 1207 01:42:15,120 --> 01:42:23,160 Speaker 1: back in again m hm um. At the end of 1208 01:42:23,200 --> 01:42:27,600 Speaker 1: the month, Robert Anderson asks Dr Thomas Bond, who we 1209 01:42:28,680 --> 01:42:32,680 Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, to examine all of the medical evidence of 1210 01:42:32,720 --> 01:42:37,280 Speaker 1: the murders. To that point, Um, why was Dr Bond 1211 01:42:37,320 --> 01:42:41,680 Speaker 1: a trusted observer, trusted by Robert Anderson? And uh, you 1212 01:42:41,720 --> 01:42:43,639 Speaker 1: know what in his life had led him to be 1213 01:42:43,720 --> 01:42:47,519 Speaker 1: in Robert Anderson's trust. And then when he did have 1214 01:42:47,680 --> 01:42:50,639 Speaker 1: the amassed evidence together, what did he conclude and did 1215 01:42:50,640 --> 01:42:57,040 Speaker 1: the police find it helpful? Um? Dr Thomas Bond was 1216 01:42:57,520 --> 01:43:06,200 Speaker 1: really the doctor that Robert Anderson favored and was was 1217 01:43:07,439 --> 01:43:11,960 Speaker 1: one of the senior, most senior of the of the 1218 01:43:12,000 --> 01:43:18,240 Speaker 1: police surgeons. And on the twenty October Robert Anna Star's 1219 01:43:18,320 --> 01:43:23,679 Speaker 1: Bond to assist in the Ripper investigation. He hadn't done 1220 01:43:23,760 --> 01:43:27,280 Speaker 1: much on the earlier victims, but he was able to 1221 01:43:27,320 --> 01:43:33,120 Speaker 1: study their inquest testimony. Uh, and he had seen Mary 1222 01:43:33,200 --> 01:43:44,960 Speaker 1: Kelly's body, and he submitted a report on the ten oh, 1223 01:43:45,000 --> 01:43:53,439 Speaker 1: sorry tenth of November. So he uh he was the 1224 01:43:53,520 --> 01:43:56,600 Speaker 1: senior as I said, was the senior surgeon. He was 1225 01:43:56,680 --> 01:44:00,559 Speaker 1: the surgeon to a division of the Metropolitan Police, the 1226 01:44:00,600 --> 01:44:06,479 Speaker 1: division basically Scotland Yards. And he reviewed the notes as 1227 01:44:07,080 --> 01:44:13,480 Speaker 1: m as we know, and had been involved in the 1228 01:44:13,560 --> 01:44:20,479 Speaker 1: inquest in sorry, the autopsy on Mary Kelly. He was 1229 01:44:20,720 --> 01:44:26,080 Speaker 1: basically the first, if not the first, one of the 1230 01:44:26,200 --> 01:44:33,400 Speaker 1: earliest ah psychological or creat creators of a psychological profile. 1231 01:44:33,560 --> 01:44:39,840 Speaker 1: He his report to Anderson basically profiled the murderer and 1232 01:44:41,040 --> 01:44:52,839 Speaker 1: said things like he he he concluded that the murderer 1233 01:44:52,880 --> 01:44:58,240 Speaker 1: would not necessarily be splashed or deluged with blood. His 1234 01:44:58,400 --> 01:45:02,599 Speaker 1: hands and arms must have been covered in parts of 1235 01:45:02,640 --> 01:45:06,640 Speaker 1: his clothing must certainly have been smeared with blood. But 1236 01:45:06,800 --> 01:45:10,800 Speaker 1: he could have rolled down his sleeves and put on 1237 01:45:10,880 --> 01:45:14,719 Speaker 1: gloves and things, so he could have made his escape 1238 01:45:15,080 --> 01:45:23,760 Speaker 1: without blood necessarily being all over him. Um. He concluded 1239 01:45:23,800 --> 01:45:28,200 Speaker 1: things like he he thought the mutilations in all the 1240 01:45:28,280 --> 01:45:34,879 Speaker 1: cases except Bernard Street, were all of the same character, 1241 01:45:35,000 --> 01:45:38,799 Speaker 1: he said, and so we that's one of the reasons 1242 01:45:38,840 --> 01:45:42,919 Speaker 1: why the murderer of the murder of Elizabeth Stride sometimes 1243 01:45:43,439 --> 01:45:47,800 Speaker 1: isn't thought to be one of the Ripper victims. But 1244 01:45:47,960 --> 01:45:53,280 Speaker 1: then at the same having said that, the circumstances of 1245 01:45:53,400 --> 01:45:58,400 Speaker 1: that murder we're different. She Stride wasn't mutilated. It appears 1246 01:45:58,439 --> 01:46:06,240 Speaker 1: that the murderer had made an escape. Um. So, really, 1247 01:46:06,240 --> 01:46:08,760 Speaker 1: all I have to say on Bond, that's great, That's 1248 01:46:08,800 --> 01:46:13,240 Speaker 1: that's good, and I'll have h Adam. Adam Wood has 1249 01:46:13,320 --> 01:46:15,559 Speaker 1: has written a lot about about Bond's career in his 1250 01:46:15,600 --> 01:46:17,880 Speaker 1: Swanson books, so when I talk with him, we'll get 1251 01:46:17,920 --> 01:46:20,479 Speaker 1: to go into Bond's history a little more. So that's great, 1252 01:46:20,600 --> 01:46:24,040 Speaker 1: that's great. Um. After after Mary Kelly's killing, can you 1253 01:46:24,080 --> 01:46:27,559 Speaker 1: describe the way that the police worked to make sure 1254 01:46:27,680 --> 01:46:32,559 Speaker 1: that that her murder, despite it's horrific nature, did not 1255 01:46:32,720 --> 01:46:36,559 Speaker 1: incite the same kind of of press coverage of the 1256 01:46:36,600 --> 01:46:45,799 Speaker 1: previous killings. Uh. The the issue I think with after 1257 01:46:45,880 --> 01:46:54,400 Speaker 1: Mary Kelly was really that, um, it was it was 1258 01:46:55,320 --> 01:46:59,519 Speaker 1: the murder of Kelly was committed within the jurisdiction of 1259 01:46:59,640 --> 01:47:05,960 Speaker 1: the from coroner. Again, coroner's had had different areas that 1260 01:47:06,000 --> 01:47:10,960 Speaker 1: they were responsible for, and the previous murders, with the 1261 01:47:11,040 --> 01:47:17,560 Speaker 1: exception of Katherine Eddoes in the City of London, had 1262 01:47:17,600 --> 01:47:22,439 Speaker 1: fallen within the jurisdiction of Wind Baxter, and he was 1263 01:47:22,479 --> 01:47:26,280 Speaker 1: a man who took care to question almost everyone with 1264 01:47:26,479 --> 01:47:29,639 Speaker 1: something relevant to say, and to probe what they said 1265 01:47:29,680 --> 01:47:35,080 Speaker 1: as best best he could. Mary Kelly fell within the 1266 01:47:35,200 --> 01:47:41,040 Speaker 1: jurisdiction of Dr Roderick McDonald, and he decided to take 1267 01:47:41,360 --> 01:47:44,960 Speaker 1: only that information necessary to establish the cause and time 1268 01:47:45,040 --> 01:47:49,320 Speaker 1: of death, so the inquest was over within a day. 1269 01:47:50,439 --> 01:47:53,840 Speaker 1: The effect of this was that it curtailed a sort 1270 01:47:53,880 --> 01:47:59,480 Speaker 1: of press speculation that had been indulged in when reporting 1271 01:47:59,520 --> 01:48:04,160 Speaker 1: the quests day after day in between adjournments. Whether this 1272 01:48:04,320 --> 01:48:09,240 Speaker 1: was done in accordance with Dr McDonald's personal beliefs about 1273 01:48:09,320 --> 01:48:12,559 Speaker 1: how in quest should be conducted, or was done at 1274 01:48:12,560 --> 01:48:15,719 Speaker 1: the request of the police or even the Home Office, 1275 01:48:17,680 --> 01:48:21,439 Speaker 1: the result was that it it switched off press interest, 1276 01:48:21,560 --> 01:48:27,560 Speaker 1: almost like he was switching off an electric light. Reports 1277 01:48:27,720 --> 01:48:30,400 Speaker 1: continued to be made of other murders in the area, 1278 01:48:30,520 --> 01:48:33,439 Speaker 1: and there were flurries of Jack the Ripper excitement, but 1279 01:48:34,200 --> 01:48:37,360 Speaker 1: for many it put a full stop to the murders. 1280 01:48:37,800 --> 01:48:42,160 Speaker 1: Kelly was indeed remind regarded by many as as the 1281 01:48:42,280 --> 01:48:49,479 Speaker 1: last Jack the Ripper murder m hm hm um. And 1282 01:48:49,520 --> 01:48:53,200 Speaker 1: there there are some writers who have written that Charles 1283 01:48:53,200 --> 01:48:58,080 Speaker 1: Warren resigns because of the failure of the police to 1284 01:48:58,920 --> 01:49:02,439 Speaker 1: solve the case, to catch the killer. You mentioned earlier, 1285 01:49:02,560 --> 01:49:05,600 Speaker 1: his his conflicts with with Matthews leading up to the 1286 01:49:05,640 --> 01:49:12,120 Speaker 1: Murray's Magazine article. UM, So, in your mind, what were 1287 01:49:12,680 --> 01:49:16,920 Speaker 1: the reasons that Warren did resign, Maybe just the article 1288 01:49:17,479 --> 01:49:20,679 Speaker 1: um and his and his conflict with Matthews, and then 1289 01:49:20,840 --> 01:49:24,439 Speaker 1: what was the process for selecting as a new Commissioner Monroe, 1290 01:49:24,520 --> 01:49:34,200 Speaker 1: as you mentioned, once Charles Warren had left his post. Um. 1291 01:49:34,240 --> 01:49:39,800 Speaker 1: I think it's fairly well established that the reason why 1292 01:49:39,800 --> 01:49:49,200 Speaker 1: Warren resigned was because he'd he was basically fed up 1293 01:49:49,200 --> 01:49:53,680 Speaker 1: with the restrictions that were being placed upon him by 1294 01:49:53,720 --> 01:49:59,320 Speaker 1: the Home Office. He was somebody who ran his own businesses, 1295 01:49:59,400 --> 01:50:05,160 Speaker 1: it were, and resented the fact that he had to 1296 01:50:05,360 --> 01:50:09,720 Speaker 1: sometimes go cap in hand to somebody else for permission 1297 01:50:09,760 --> 01:50:13,280 Speaker 1: to do what he believed was the right thing to do. 1298 01:50:15,040 --> 01:50:21,759 Speaker 1: And the writing of the Murray's Magazine article, which didn't 1299 01:50:21,800 --> 01:50:29,400 Speaker 1: contain anything really that anybody could object to. But Matthews 1300 01:50:29,439 --> 01:50:33,400 Speaker 1: did object to it because simply because Warren hadn't asked 1301 01:50:33,439 --> 01:50:39,679 Speaker 1: his permission to write it and have it published. Warren, 1302 01:50:39,880 --> 01:50:48,599 Speaker 1: I think also had probably been quite keen to leave 1303 01:50:49,960 --> 01:51:01,320 Speaker 1: the job, and prior to this blowing up in his face. UH, 1304 01:51:01,800 --> 01:51:07,400 Speaker 1: Monroe was a had been a senior policeman in India 1305 01:51:08,080 --> 01:51:11,599 Speaker 1: UH and on his return to England need have been 1306 01:51:11,680 --> 01:51:18,160 Speaker 1: appointed Assistant Commissioner c I D. He also ran into 1307 01:51:18,240 --> 01:51:25,280 Speaker 1: trouble with with Warren, mainly because Monroe, like Warren, wanted 1308 01:51:25,280 --> 01:51:28,360 Speaker 1: to run his own department his way, and he didn't 1309 01:51:28,439 --> 01:51:33,960 Speaker 1: like Warren interfering any more than Warren, like Matthews interfering. 1310 01:51:35,880 --> 01:51:40,839 Speaker 1: It's just odd perhaps that Monroe, who must have understood 1311 01:51:40,880 --> 01:51:45,639 Speaker 1: Warren's problems, had no sympathy for Warren, who was suffering 1312 01:51:45,640 --> 01:51:49,360 Speaker 1: the same as Monroe was suffering only with Warren. But 1313 01:51:49,520 --> 01:51:53,240 Speaker 1: so he resigned, and the Home Office then appointed him 1314 01:51:53,280 --> 01:51:57,320 Speaker 1: to a special permission to run a clandestine secret department 1315 01:51:58,560 --> 01:52:05,080 Speaker 1: reporting on subversive groups other than the Fenians. So he 1316 01:52:05,280 --> 01:52:11,280 Speaker 1: was still there, if you like, running this separate section UH. 1317 01:52:11,439 --> 01:52:15,680 Speaker 1: And he was consulted about the White Chapel murders throughout 1318 01:52:16,040 --> 01:52:21,559 Speaker 1: and was perhaps therefore, for very many reasons, best equipped 1319 01:52:21,560 --> 01:52:23,719 Speaker 1: ahead the met at the time. And I don't think 1320 01:52:23,800 --> 01:52:30,640 Speaker 1: that there was much of a process of of selection 1321 01:52:30,720 --> 01:52:33,559 Speaker 1: process going on. I think mon Row was basically chosen 1322 01:52:33,600 --> 01:52:41,439 Speaker 1: for the job and put into it. M hmmmmm. You 1323 01:52:41,520 --> 01:52:46,640 Speaker 1: mentioned that there are further murders that happened in the 1324 01:52:46,640 --> 01:52:51,680 Speaker 1: East End. Uh. Some of them do generate more speculation, 1325 01:52:52,200 --> 01:52:55,639 Speaker 1: more press coverage, more interest in whether or not Jack 1326 01:52:55,680 --> 01:52:57,800 Speaker 1: the Ripper, They say, you know that, whether or not 1327 01:52:57,840 --> 01:53:02,120 Speaker 1: the same hand was involved. Um. So I'd like to 1328 01:53:02,120 --> 01:53:06,480 Speaker 1: talk a little bit about Alice mackenzie and Francis calls. Um. 1329 01:53:06,479 --> 01:53:11,080 Speaker 1: How was the murder of Alice mackenzie investigated relative to 1330 01:53:11,280 --> 01:53:14,080 Speaker 1: the killings that we've talked about so far, Nicholson, Chapman, 1331 01:53:14,240 --> 01:53:19,520 Speaker 1: ETOs Stride Kelly. Initially, in the case of Alice McKenzie, 1332 01:53:20,200 --> 01:53:27,320 Speaker 1: M James Monroe personally took charge of that murder investigation. 1333 01:53:27,600 --> 01:53:33,800 Speaker 1: And he initially because Sir Robert Anderson was on holiday again. Uh, 1334 01:53:33,880 --> 01:53:37,400 Speaker 1: And he initially believed that she was murdered by the 1335 01:53:37,600 --> 01:53:46,120 Speaker 1: same person who had committed the earlier murders, but he 1336 01:53:46,280 --> 01:53:50,400 Speaker 1: later changed his mind, and so the the murder of 1337 01:53:50,400 --> 01:53:52,920 Speaker 1: Alice Mackenzie was just followed as if it were an 1338 01:53:53,000 --> 01:54:00,200 Speaker 1: ordinary murder investigation. What's interesting, I suppose for today for 1339 01:54:00,280 --> 01:54:04,320 Speaker 1: people who are interested in who the ripper was, is that, 1340 01:54:04,400 --> 01:54:09,439 Speaker 1: although Monroe later changed his mind, his initial conclusion means 1341 01:54:09,479 --> 01:54:12,840 Speaker 1: that the ripper had not been identified at the time 1342 01:54:12,880 --> 01:54:21,200 Speaker 1: of Mackenzie's murder in July, so various suspects who were 1343 01:54:21,520 --> 01:54:28,520 Speaker 1: dead by that time or had either not become suspects 1344 01:54:28,560 --> 01:54:35,520 Speaker 1: at that point or they weren't the ripper. The murder 1345 01:54:35,520 --> 01:54:40,680 Speaker 1: of Francis Coles again is doesn't appear really to have 1346 01:54:40,720 --> 01:54:47,200 Speaker 1: any connection with the Jack the Ripper murders um, but 1347 01:54:47,680 --> 01:54:51,760 Speaker 1: it is significant for being the last murder included in 1348 01:54:51,800 --> 01:54:58,160 Speaker 1: the White Chuckle murders file held by the police. Francis 1349 01:54:58,200 --> 01:55:02,120 Speaker 1: Coles also, to some ex then comes across as possibly 1350 01:55:03,400 --> 01:55:09,360 Speaker 1: one of the nicest of the victims from what little 1351 01:55:09,400 --> 01:55:14,280 Speaker 1: we know about mm hmm, yeah. What gives us that 1352 01:55:14,320 --> 01:55:18,280 Speaker 1: impression about about her? About her life? I think it 1353 01:55:18,400 --> 01:55:25,280 Speaker 1: was the fact that she was She had tried various jobs, 1354 01:55:26,520 --> 01:55:32,760 Speaker 1: and one of which appears to have damaged her hands. 1355 01:55:32,760 --> 01:55:39,320 Speaker 1: She was not able to do jobs. She tried very 1356 01:55:39,440 --> 01:55:45,400 Speaker 1: hard to retain some degree in respectability, and particularly not 1357 01:55:45,520 --> 01:55:51,680 Speaker 1: to let her father know what she was doing or 1358 01:55:51,680 --> 01:55:55,640 Speaker 1: what she had become h and always trying to keep 1359 01:55:56,360 --> 01:56:04,920 Speaker 1: her clothes look or keep looking decent. She also when 1360 01:56:04,920 --> 01:56:09,400 Speaker 1: she met up with Thomas Sadler that that last night 1361 01:56:09,920 --> 01:56:14,040 Speaker 1: of her life, she had tried to basically take care 1362 01:56:14,080 --> 01:56:17,880 Speaker 1: of him and look after him. And she obviously taken 1363 01:56:17,960 --> 01:56:22,480 Speaker 1: drinks and done what she was supposed to do. But 1364 01:56:22,600 --> 01:56:28,280 Speaker 1: she just comes across as being hard done by somebody 1365 01:56:28,360 --> 01:56:32,280 Speaker 1: she she she wouldn't probably have been doing what she 1366 01:56:32,440 --> 01:56:35,960 Speaker 1: was doing in at a different time, in a different place. 1367 01:56:36,800 --> 01:56:40,920 Speaker 1: I'm not sure that she comes across as having other 1368 01:56:41,040 --> 01:56:47,520 Speaker 1: failings such as being a desperate alcoholic or or anything 1369 01:56:47,560 --> 01:56:51,640 Speaker 1: like that, or not failings particularly, but but illness issue 1370 01:56:51,960 --> 01:56:56,920 Speaker 1: of that kind. She was just somebody who seems to 1371 01:56:56,920 --> 01:57:02,720 Speaker 1: have found herself in her having hard times almost through 1372 01:57:02,800 --> 01:57:09,440 Speaker 1: note falls of our own. Yeah, um, when we're thinking 1373 01:57:09,440 --> 01:57:14,640 Speaker 1: about yeah, stepping further and further away from the time 1374 01:57:14,880 --> 01:57:20,920 Speaker 1: of the murders and and starting to look back on them, um, 1375 01:57:20,960 --> 01:57:24,640 Speaker 1: and almost to shape our understanding of them from a 1376 01:57:24,680 --> 01:57:29,760 Speaker 1: historical perspective. Who was Melville McNaughton and what role did 1377 01:57:29,800 --> 01:57:37,040 Speaker 1: he have in enjoining the investigation. Melville mc norton had 1378 01:57:37,120 --> 01:57:43,120 Speaker 1: been a was was a and from a wealthy family 1379 01:57:43,960 --> 01:57:48,360 Speaker 1: that had tea plantations in India, and he had gone 1380 01:57:48,840 --> 01:57:54,280 Speaker 1: to run the tea plantations. They were it was a 1381 01:57:54,280 --> 01:57:58,240 Speaker 1: tough time for him. They were fairly remote from the 1382 01:57:58,320 --> 01:58:01,200 Speaker 1: rest of civilization. He'd get to see an awful lot 1383 01:58:01,200 --> 01:58:04,160 Speaker 1: of people. But he appears to have stuck it out 1384 01:58:04,280 --> 01:58:08,120 Speaker 1: and being quite good at what he did. But at 1385 01:58:08,160 --> 01:58:13,280 Speaker 1: one point he ran into trouble with some of the 1386 01:58:13,400 --> 01:58:18,960 Speaker 1: natives and basically they beat him up and left him 1387 01:58:19,120 --> 01:58:26,080 Speaker 1: for dead in the plane. Fortunately he recovered and he 1388 01:58:27,040 --> 01:58:31,560 Speaker 1: returned eventually returned to England. But as a consequence of 1389 01:58:31,640 --> 01:58:36,880 Speaker 1: that event, he actually met James Monroe, who was the 1390 01:58:36,960 --> 01:58:41,440 Speaker 1: senior policeman out there at the time, and so the 1391 01:58:41,480 --> 01:58:47,440 Speaker 1: two of them became quite good friends. So when mc 1392 01:58:47,480 --> 01:58:53,840 Speaker 1: norton came back to Britain, Munroe wanted him to join 1393 01:58:53,920 --> 01:58:57,720 Speaker 1: the met and become I think it was Assistant Chief Constable. 1394 01:58:59,640 --> 01:59:04,040 Speaker 1: Uh All appeared to be going swimmingly until Warren found 1395 01:59:04,040 --> 01:59:07,640 Speaker 1: out about this incident of him being beaten up in India, 1396 01:59:08,520 --> 01:59:13,520 Speaker 1: and he really then said no. And so that was 1397 01:59:13,560 --> 01:59:21,960 Speaker 1: another interference with with with Munroe's department that put him 1398 01:59:21,960 --> 01:59:28,320 Speaker 1: at odds with Warren. So it was the following year 1399 01:59:29,440 --> 01:59:33,520 Speaker 1: that that Norton was when, after Warren had gone, that 1400 01:59:33,720 --> 01:59:37,520 Speaker 1: McNaughton managed to all the Monroe managed to get McNaughton 1401 01:59:37,600 --> 01:59:42,000 Speaker 1: into into place, and he joined the met in the 1402 01:59:42,040 --> 01:59:49,360 Speaker 1: middle of and so he was there for all the 1403 01:59:48,760 --> 01:59:52,280 Speaker 1: the later to investigate the later murders. But he had 1404 01:59:52,320 --> 01:59:58,480 Speaker 1: a tremendous interest in the case and apparently kept pictures 1405 01:59:58,560 --> 02:00:01,120 Speaker 1: of the victims and other informa in his desk draw 1406 02:00:01,920 --> 02:00:05,520 Speaker 1: so he would have been able to make it acquaint 1407 02:00:05,640 --> 02:00:10,960 Speaker 1: himself with with all the the basic facts of the investigation. 1408 02:00:11,920 --> 02:00:17,080 Speaker 1: And then of course he was active in the subsequent investigation, 1409 02:00:17,160 --> 02:00:21,440 Speaker 1: so he became quite a knowledgeable person. And he wrote 1410 02:00:24,080 --> 02:00:30,240 Speaker 1: a report called the which we refer to as the 1411 02:00:30,320 --> 02:00:38,840 Speaker 1: mc norton Memorandum. And he wrote this probably in anticipation 1412 02:00:38,880 --> 02:00:42,040 Speaker 1: of questions being asked of the police about a man 1413 02:00:42,120 --> 02:00:46,160 Speaker 1: called Thomas Cutbush, who a newspaper at the time was 1414 02:00:46,280 --> 02:00:51,800 Speaker 1: identifying but not naming him as Jack the Ripper. In 1415 02:00:52,440 --> 02:00:56,839 Speaker 1: this report, he briefly summarizes the Jack the Ripper murders 1416 02:00:56,880 --> 02:01:04,360 Speaker 1: and refers to three suspects. They were Montague, John Druette, 1417 02:01:04,440 --> 02:01:12,080 Speaker 1: somebody called Kasminski, and a man called Ostrog. We don't 1418 02:01:12,120 --> 02:01:14,720 Speaker 1: know very much about any of them. Drew it appears 1419 02:01:14,760 --> 02:01:19,520 Speaker 1: to have been come to the attention of the police 1420 02:01:19,600 --> 02:01:26,120 Speaker 1: some years after when Norton joined the met. A lot 1421 02:01:26,160 --> 02:01:31,160 Speaker 1: of has been done on Kasminsky. We don't know for 1422 02:01:31,240 --> 02:01:34,160 Speaker 1: sure who Cosminski was, but the we do know that 1423 02:01:34,160 --> 02:01:38,240 Speaker 1: he went into an asylum and the only k anything 1424 02:01:38,320 --> 02:01:41,960 Speaker 1: Ski that's been found in asylum records as a chap 1425 02:01:42,000 --> 02:01:44,720 Speaker 1: called Aaron Kasminski, and a lot of theorizing has been 1426 02:01:44,760 --> 02:01:50,800 Speaker 1: done about him and Michael Ostrog. Turns out that he 1427 02:01:51,440 --> 02:01:56,240 Speaker 1: was actually in a prison in France at the time 1428 02:01:56,280 --> 02:01:59,120 Speaker 1: the murders were committed, and so he couldn't have been 1429 02:01:59,680 --> 02:02:03,280 Speaker 1: Jack the Ripper, But obviously mc norton didn't know that 1430 02:02:03,320 --> 02:02:08,240 Speaker 1: when he wrote the memorandum, so he's become quite an 1431 02:02:08,280 --> 02:02:13,480 Speaker 1: important figure in the case. Do we know how the 1432 02:02:13,520 --> 02:02:19,040 Speaker 1: memorandum was received on its first being written, Well, as 1433 02:02:19,080 --> 02:02:23,560 Speaker 1: far as we can tell it, it was never received 1434 02:02:23,600 --> 02:02:29,400 Speaker 1: by anybody we we suppose. We we assume that it 1435 02:02:29,480 --> 02:02:35,400 Speaker 1: was written for his senior officer, which at that time 1436 02:02:35,400 --> 02:02:43,160 Speaker 1: would have been Robert Anderson. Um or it was prepared 1437 02:02:44,840 --> 02:02:52,360 Speaker 1: at Anderson's request forman Rose request, possibly for the attention 1438 02:02:52,400 --> 02:02:54,920 Speaker 1: of the Home Office, But we really don't know, and 1439 02:02:54,960 --> 02:02:59,240 Speaker 1: there's nothing. There are no none of the usual stamps 1440 02:02:59,280 --> 02:03:03,960 Speaker 1: to suggest this was received by somebody or read by somebody, 1441 02:03:04,000 --> 02:03:08,320 Speaker 1: as as are appended to most documents, so it may 1442 02:03:08,480 --> 02:03:13,600 Speaker 1: not ever have been needed and Munroe sorry, not just 1443 02:03:13,640 --> 02:03:19,040 Speaker 1: stuck it into the files. We do know. What's interesting 1444 02:03:19,160 --> 02:03:22,520 Speaker 1: is that there was a copy that he kept a 1445 02:03:22,560 --> 02:03:26,760 Speaker 1: copy of that report, which differs slightly from the one 1446 02:03:26,800 --> 02:03:34,200 Speaker 1: in the police files, which some people have argued, ah 1447 02:03:34,960 --> 02:03:40,440 Speaker 1: was something that mc norton wrote later. I think it was. 1448 02:03:40,640 --> 02:03:46,320 Speaker 1: It's more likely to be a rough draft of the 1449 02:03:46,320 --> 02:03:51,080 Speaker 1: one that's in the police files. They basically say that 1450 02:03:51,560 --> 02:03:55,960 Speaker 1: the same thing m but there are important details that 1451 02:03:56,000 --> 02:04:00,680 Speaker 1: are different, so it probably wasn't We can't you know, 1452 02:04:00,720 --> 02:04:03,320 Speaker 1: it wasn't received by anybody, so there was no reaction 1453 02:04:03,400 --> 02:04:10,200 Speaker 1: to it. Um Stepping now more towards those kinds of 1454 02:04:10,240 --> 02:04:16,000 Speaker 1: retrospective questions and considerations, you've written that that Wind Baxter, 1455 02:04:16,880 --> 02:04:22,280 Speaker 1: the coroner for everyone except Atos and Kelly um that 1456 02:04:22,400 --> 02:04:26,800 Speaker 1: he gained undeserved notoriety for advancing the theory that the 1457 02:04:26,840 --> 02:04:30,600 Speaker 1: murders were committed in order to obtain the victims internal organs. 1458 02:04:31,440 --> 02:04:34,840 Speaker 1: Would you say more about that theory, why drew the 1459 02:04:34,840 --> 02:04:41,040 Speaker 1: attention it did to Baxter, and why it was undeserved? Well, 1460 02:04:41,760 --> 02:04:47,160 Speaker 1: when Baxter had heard that an American doctor was trying 1461 02:04:47,200 --> 02:04:54,840 Speaker 1: to buy you y ah and the explanation given for this, 1462 02:04:55,760 --> 02:05:00,440 Speaker 1: unprobable as it sounds, was to accompany a book he 1463 02:05:00,560 --> 02:05:05,240 Speaker 1: was writing. Now, when Baxter heard this story and at 1464 02:05:05,240 --> 02:05:16,360 Speaker 1: the inquest, suggested that ah that they said possibly may 1465 02:05:16,400 --> 02:05:19,280 Speaker 1: have been heard or something like it may have been 1466 02:05:19,360 --> 02:05:22,800 Speaker 1: heard by the murderer and given the murderer the idea 1467 02:05:23,000 --> 02:05:26,480 Speaker 1: of killing women in order to obtain organs that he 1468 02:05:26,560 --> 02:05:32,480 Speaker 1: could then sell. In honesty, it was an insane idea, 1469 02:05:34,440 --> 02:05:40,080 Speaker 1: but when Baxter suggested that it was, the murderer was insane. 1470 02:05:40,760 --> 02:05:44,440 Speaker 1: So in fairness to Baxter, all he suggested was that 1471 02:05:44,520 --> 02:05:48,600 Speaker 1: a madman might have been inspired by a story that 1472 02:05:48,760 --> 02:05:53,120 Speaker 1: was in circulation at the time. And I think that's 1473 02:05:53,200 --> 02:05:56,400 Speaker 1: quite quite reasonable. I'm in a madman, to be honest, 1474 02:05:56,440 --> 02:05:59,480 Speaker 1: could have been inspired by anything, and we know that 1475 02:06:00,000 --> 02:06:04,760 Speaker 1: the most obscure things seem to have inspired people to 1476 02:06:05,240 --> 02:06:11,040 Speaker 1: kill um. It's just a pity that because win Baxter 1477 02:06:11,160 --> 02:06:14,640 Speaker 1: put forward this idea, it's been assumed that the idea 1478 02:06:14,840 --> 02:06:18,680 Speaker 1: was his. It wasn't really his. There was a doctor 1479 02:06:18,800 --> 02:06:22,640 Speaker 1: who was trying to buy you try. We don't know 1480 02:06:22,680 --> 02:06:28,480 Speaker 1: who he was, unfortunately, but there was one am and 1481 02:06:29,200 --> 02:06:37,040 Speaker 1: it's perfectly reasonable to think that somebody who was insane 1482 02:06:37,120 --> 02:06:39,720 Speaker 1: would have might have been inspired by that. So I 1483 02:06:39,760 --> 02:06:43,160 Speaker 1: think it's really unfair to take win Baxter there and 1484 02:06:43,200 --> 02:06:47,120 Speaker 1: give him give him trouble for for something that wasn't his. 1485 02:06:48,280 --> 02:06:55,040 Speaker 1: Mm hmm um. In and You've Forgotten Victims book, you 1486 02:06:55,360 --> 02:07:00,520 Speaker 1: talk a bit about the random, the White Hart, the 1487 02:07:00,560 --> 02:07:06,040 Speaker 1: Pension and other Torso or or Thames murders, and you 1488 02:07:06,160 --> 02:07:10,160 Speaker 1: noted that at the time of writing um, they had 1489 02:07:10,240 --> 02:07:14,920 Speaker 1: drawn little attention relative to what we consider the Ripper killings. 1490 02:07:15,560 --> 02:07:21,160 Speaker 1: Could you say a few more words on on that. Uh? Yeah, 1491 02:07:21,240 --> 02:07:26,920 Speaker 1: as a very good question. Unfortunately, it's one to which 1492 02:07:26,960 --> 02:07:32,560 Speaker 1: there's no definitive answer. I guess it's part because they 1493 02:07:32,600 --> 02:07:37,200 Speaker 1: were overshadowed by the Whitechapel murders, and therefore they just 1494 02:07:37,240 --> 02:07:41,040 Speaker 1: didn't get the publicity that they One imagine that they 1495 02:07:41,160 --> 02:07:45,480 Speaker 1: might have done had they had the Whitechappel murders not 1496 02:07:45,560 --> 02:07:49,800 Speaker 1: being committed at the same time equally, of course, it 1497 02:07:49,920 --> 02:07:55,920 Speaker 1: depends on what really grabs the attention of the press. 1498 02:07:56,880 --> 02:08:01,839 Speaker 1: And these were bodied parts in effect that we're being 1499 02:08:01,880 --> 02:08:11,360 Speaker 1: found at different times in fairly separated places. And unlike 1500 02:08:11,400 --> 02:08:15,360 Speaker 1: the Ripper killings, which were suggested one person operating in 1501 02:08:15,400 --> 02:08:21,760 Speaker 1: a very small area, it may well be that the 1502 02:08:22,120 --> 02:08:25,880 Speaker 1: to Also killings just didn't grab public attention. And we 1503 02:08:25,960 --> 02:08:28,560 Speaker 1: have known about these murders for quite a long time, 1504 02:08:28,600 --> 02:08:32,760 Speaker 1: and it's only in the last few years that people 1505 02:08:32,800 --> 02:08:38,360 Speaker 1: have been writing books about them and ah really bringing 1506 02:08:38,400 --> 02:08:43,560 Speaker 1: them into the sphere of of anybody interested in the 1507 02:08:43,640 --> 02:08:46,720 Speaker 1: Ripper murders as well, because they show what was going 1508 02:08:46,760 --> 02:08:55,560 Speaker 1: on at the time. Mhm Um. In that same book, 1509 02:08:56,280 --> 02:08:58,920 Speaker 1: all right, and you offered a few comments on this 1510 02:08:59,040 --> 02:09:02,120 Speaker 1: on this earlier Um, but just stepping towards wrapping up 1511 02:09:02,160 --> 02:09:05,600 Speaker 1: our conversation for today. UM. In that book, you've written 1512 02:09:05,600 --> 02:09:08,080 Speaker 1: that often the stories of women killed in Whitechapel are 1513 02:09:08,520 --> 02:09:11,080 Speaker 1: omitted from the studies of the murder and that their 1514 02:09:11,120 --> 02:09:16,160 Speaker 1: status um, whether they're in or out of being included 1515 02:09:16,240 --> 02:09:19,640 Speaker 1: in in the victims of a you know, Jack the Ripper, 1516 02:09:20,280 --> 02:09:23,760 Speaker 1: kind of depends on in your term that the whim 1517 02:09:23,800 --> 02:09:28,480 Speaker 1: of the theorist about the identity of the killer. Um, 1518 02:09:28,560 --> 02:09:30,320 Speaker 1: with that in mind, would you be going to offer 1519 02:09:31,440 --> 02:09:36,680 Speaker 1: how you have gone about thinking about the identity of suspects, 1520 02:09:37,800 --> 02:09:47,360 Speaker 1: potential um possibilities for who the murderer was. Well, right 1521 02:09:48,000 --> 02:09:52,280 Speaker 1: from the I've never been terribly interested in the identity 1522 02:09:52,280 --> 02:09:57,040 Speaker 1: of Jack the Ripper. Oddly enough, it was always for 1523 02:09:57,120 --> 02:10:04,160 Speaker 1: me was compiling the data, the about all the crimes 1524 02:10:04,160 --> 02:10:10,360 Speaker 1: and what led to various conclusions and so forth. So 1525 02:10:10,840 --> 02:10:17,920 Speaker 1: it's really I think that the chances of us ever 1526 02:10:18,040 --> 02:10:25,160 Speaker 1: knowing who Jack the Ripple was largely depends on who 1527 02:10:25,200 --> 02:10:28,080 Speaker 1: the police at the time thought Jack the Ripple was. 1528 02:10:29,120 --> 02:10:32,960 Speaker 1: And the only clues to that that we have are 1529 02:10:33,360 --> 02:10:38,600 Speaker 1: the are the names provided in the Norton memoranda, and 1530 02:10:39,440 --> 02:10:44,640 Speaker 1: to a slightly lesser extent, to Francis Tumbletye, who was 1531 02:10:45,880 --> 02:10:52,720 Speaker 1: a definite suspect at a time at some point, UM, 1532 02:10:53,440 --> 02:10:57,720 Speaker 1: and maybe one or two others. But there's That's basically it. 1533 02:10:57,960 --> 02:11:02,080 Speaker 1: And of those really, really I suppose it all boils 1534 02:11:02,160 --> 02:11:09,480 Speaker 1: down to Drewid and kause Minsky and the research that 1535 02:11:09,560 --> 02:11:16,800 Speaker 1: has been done on them. UM. And I wouldn't like 1536 02:11:17,000 --> 02:11:20,760 Speaker 1: to I know, to be honest, I really don't feel 1537 02:11:20,840 --> 02:11:29,160 Speaker 1: capable of, uh, sort of nailing my colors to to 1538 02:11:29,600 --> 02:11:32,280 Speaker 1: the master of either one. At the moment. I think 1539 02:11:32,280 --> 02:11:38,120 Speaker 1: there subjects that really do demand a lot more in 1540 02:11:38,600 --> 02:11:43,680 Speaker 1: a lot more investigation and research. And I suppose that 1541 02:11:43,880 --> 02:11:48,080 Speaker 1: really is we're trying to understand what was going on 1542 02:11:48,320 --> 02:11:51,600 Speaker 1: at the time, and understanding the history of the case 1543 02:11:53,200 --> 02:12:01,200 Speaker 1: becomes so important because, for example, it was h h 1544 02:12:02,400 --> 02:12:10,400 Speaker 1: In the case of Kazminski, we believe that he is 1545 02:12:10,560 --> 02:12:15,800 Speaker 1: also a suspect named by Anderson as being the witness, 1546 02:12:16,560 --> 02:12:21,600 Speaker 1: sorry that the person who was seen by a witness, 1547 02:12:21,640 --> 02:12:23,680 Speaker 1: the only person who have had a good view of 1548 02:12:23,720 --> 02:12:35,280 Speaker 1: the murderer. And so what Anderson wrote and how seriously 1549 02:12:35,640 --> 02:12:39,919 Speaker 1: he can be taken depends to a very great extent 1550 02:12:40,080 --> 02:12:43,200 Speaker 1: on what we know about Sir Robert Anderson and what 1551 02:12:43,320 --> 02:12:48,880 Speaker 1: kind of man he was, and how things that we 1552 02:12:48,960 --> 02:12:54,360 Speaker 1: know about him may have influenced the way he believed 1553 02:12:54,560 --> 02:12:59,040 Speaker 1: and the things that he said. Is for example, some 1554 02:12:59,240 --> 02:13:03,120 Speaker 1: people have said that he and it, strangely enough, has 1555 02:13:03,680 --> 02:13:10,480 Speaker 1: almost become an accepted fact that he was anti Semitic, 1556 02:13:13,560 --> 02:13:16,760 Speaker 1: and that was something that was leveled an accusation that 1557 02:13:16,880 --> 02:13:19,920 Speaker 1: was leveled at him at the time, and he vehemently 1558 02:13:20,000 --> 02:13:25,880 Speaker 1: denied it, and the evidence such as we have it 1559 02:13:26,400 --> 02:13:32,480 Speaker 1: would support that denial. So there's no real evidence that 1560 02:13:32,560 --> 02:13:36,440 Speaker 1: I am aware of that Anderson was anti science semitic. 1561 02:13:36,520 --> 02:13:40,160 Speaker 1: But this is a neat theory provided by people who 1562 02:13:40,240 --> 02:13:44,360 Speaker 1: want to undermine what he said, and it doesn't have 1563 02:13:44,400 --> 02:13:50,400 Speaker 1: any support. So we really need to study people like 1564 02:13:50,520 --> 02:13:55,000 Speaker 1: Anderson and mc norton and Swanson in great depth. The 1565 02:13:55,040 --> 02:13:57,520 Speaker 1: trouble is there's not an awful lot of information out 1566 02:13:57,600 --> 02:14:00,720 Speaker 1: there that enables us to do the If they have 1567 02:14:00,840 --> 02:14:06,040 Speaker 1: been politicians or something, they've probably been fifteen biographies of them, 1568 02:14:06,080 --> 02:14:11,760 Speaker 1: like there are with people like Gladstone. That's where we are, 1569 02:14:11,840 --> 02:14:19,680 Speaker 1: and nobody has done that in depth research. Really. Um 1570 02:14:20,080 --> 02:14:25,280 Speaker 1: Adam Wood has done a tremendous book about Swanson and 1571 02:14:25,600 --> 02:14:30,360 Speaker 1: probably has packed into that book everything that anybody will 1572 02:14:30,400 --> 02:14:37,960 Speaker 1: ever know about Swanson and um and it does really 1573 02:14:38,120 --> 02:14:42,000 Speaker 1: help to get some sort of insight into into Swanson 1574 02:14:42,040 --> 02:14:46,640 Speaker 1: because he was the man who wrote the the notes 1575 02:14:46,720 --> 02:14:49,280 Speaker 1: in a copy of Anderson's book that tends to confirm 1576 02:14:49,360 --> 02:14:52,040 Speaker 1: the things that Anderson said about his suspect that we 1577 02:14:52,120 --> 02:14:56,520 Speaker 1: believe to be McNaught Skazminski, So, Um, you know that 1578 02:14:57,040 --> 02:15:02,800 Speaker 1: it really is important. History now is is becoming really important. 1579 02:15:02,880 --> 02:15:06,200 Speaker 1: We can't just theorize willy nilly, we we really do 1580 02:15:06,360 --> 02:15:09,640 Speaker 1: have to get down to the serious level of history. 1581 02:15:12,040 --> 02:15:15,080 Speaker 1: And maybe as a as a final thought to conclude 1582 02:15:15,840 --> 02:15:20,480 Speaker 1: our conversation, UM, could you offer what, in your opinion, 1583 02:15:21,120 --> 02:15:27,800 Speaker 1: studying the White Chapel murders gives to us in the present. 1584 02:15:27,920 --> 02:15:32,480 Speaker 1: What's the value of this ongoing study which has been 1585 02:15:32,840 --> 02:15:36,960 Speaker 1: has been undertaken ever since the murders, and you know, 1586 02:15:37,120 --> 02:15:41,720 Speaker 1: doesn't look like it will stop anytime soon. Um, But 1587 02:15:42,880 --> 02:15:45,160 Speaker 1: having dedicated, as you said, so much of your own 1588 02:15:45,200 --> 02:15:50,800 Speaker 1: writing life to this case, what have you discovered maybe 1589 02:15:51,160 --> 02:15:58,200 Speaker 1: as you've done this work well, as I said, I 1590 02:15:58,280 --> 02:16:07,880 Speaker 1: think the I think the main thing is that uh 1591 02:16:09,080 --> 02:16:14,120 Speaker 1: probably said it a thousand times, is that Jack the Ripper, 1592 02:16:14,440 --> 02:16:19,600 Speaker 1: that the mystery if it attracts, if the if the 1593 02:16:19,680 --> 02:16:24,600 Speaker 1: mystery itself is something that somebody enjoys, if they're curious 1594 02:16:24,640 --> 02:16:29,680 Speaker 1: about trying to resolve who Jack the Ripple was, just 1595 02:16:29,920 --> 02:16:32,120 Speaker 1: in the same way as they might be if they're 1596 02:16:32,160 --> 02:16:35,920 Speaker 1: interested in who King Arthur was, or who Robin Hood was, 1597 02:16:36,040 --> 02:16:42,080 Speaker 1: or any any of those sort of mysteries of identity. 1598 02:16:42,760 --> 02:16:44,840 Speaker 1: The great thing about it is that it gets you 1599 02:16:44,879 --> 02:16:48,440 Speaker 1: to read books. People who are interested and want to know, 1600 02:16:48,640 --> 02:16:51,960 Speaker 1: they read the books, and they very often they collect 1601 02:16:52,000 --> 02:16:57,200 Speaker 1: the books. More important than that is that they actually 1602 02:16:57,400 --> 02:17:01,640 Speaker 1: think about what they're reading. And that's no bad thing either. 1603 02:17:01,800 --> 02:17:04,920 Speaker 1: So you those are two basic things that you get 1604 02:17:04,920 --> 02:17:10,680 Speaker 1: out of it, that you learn. And of course it's 1605 02:17:10,840 --> 02:17:14,720 Speaker 1: I I have found from right from when I got 1606 02:17:14,800 --> 02:17:19,200 Speaker 1: interested in this myself, that people would be interested in 1607 02:17:19,240 --> 02:17:23,760 Speaker 1: the mystery of identity. They would perhaps retain that mystery, 1608 02:17:24,080 --> 02:17:29,120 Speaker 1: but they would get interested into some other aspect of 1609 02:17:29,160 --> 02:17:33,240 Speaker 1: the case. So I always had one person in mind 1610 02:17:33,320 --> 02:17:37,480 Speaker 1: who I know was drawn to the ripper by the 1611 02:17:37,520 --> 02:17:41,720 Speaker 1: mystery of identity and then found out that one of 1612 02:17:41,720 --> 02:17:49,320 Speaker 1: the suspects came from Chiswick, where he lived, and then 1613 02:17:49,360 --> 02:17:53,200 Speaker 1: he started to investigate the connection with Chiswick. And then 1614 02:17:53,240 --> 02:17:57,800 Speaker 1: he started took that even further and ended up being 1615 02:17:58,840 --> 02:18:06,359 Speaker 1: quite a uh well a highly knowledgeable local historian. Uh 1616 02:18:06,400 --> 02:18:11,119 Speaker 1: And so it it took him off in all sorts 1617 02:18:11,120 --> 02:18:17,720 Speaker 1: of different directions. I mentioned earlier the issue of horses 1618 02:18:17,840 --> 02:18:20,039 Speaker 1: dropping dead in the street. When you think about it, 1619 02:18:20,120 --> 02:18:23,160 Speaker 1: horses then were like cars are today, and if your 1620 02:18:23,160 --> 02:18:27,800 Speaker 1: car breaks down now you call somebody like one of 1621 02:18:27,840 --> 02:18:31,040 Speaker 1: the motoring organizations here, it would be the A A 1622 02:18:31,280 --> 02:18:37,840 Speaker 1: or something like that. Uh. There was a similar operation 1623 02:18:38,879 --> 02:18:44,800 Speaker 1: which were the horse slaughterers in Victorian London, and they 1624 02:18:44,879 --> 02:18:47,640 Speaker 1: had a branch all over different places and they would 1625 02:18:47,640 --> 02:18:53,720 Speaker 1: come out and they would get the horse and take 1626 02:18:53,800 --> 02:18:58,160 Speaker 1: it back to their to their yards. So there's all 1627 02:18:58,280 --> 02:19:03,480 Speaker 1: this business going on um and about the way that 1628 02:19:03,560 --> 02:19:07,199 Speaker 1: people lived, and so there are people who have actually 1629 02:19:08,320 --> 02:19:14,560 Speaker 1: specialized in learning about the horse slaughtering business that was 1630 02:19:14,879 --> 02:19:21,879 Speaker 1: huge in Victorian London and really one company basically had 1631 02:19:21,920 --> 02:19:25,640 Speaker 1: the monopoly on it. And so there's all kinds of 1632 02:19:25,640 --> 02:19:35,280 Speaker 1: things that people lead off to discover and as I say, 1633 02:19:35,360 --> 02:19:40,760 Speaker 1: the murder aspect of it adds a frision of of excitement. 1634 02:19:42,360 --> 02:19:45,680 Speaker 1: But of course it's not just that. I mean, Jack 1635 02:19:45,720 --> 02:19:51,959 Speaker 1: the Ripper now is part of our popular culture known 1636 02:19:52,040 --> 02:19:57,520 Speaker 1: around the world. You still can, I believe, go to 1637 02:19:57,920 --> 02:20:04,800 Speaker 1: a burger bar Singapore where they're selling you can have 1638 02:20:04,840 --> 02:20:10,560 Speaker 1: an anti burger, which is somewhat the thought of that 1639 02:20:10,800 --> 02:20:14,879 Speaker 1: is rather repellent, but nevertheless it's it just goes to 1640 02:20:14,959 --> 02:20:20,880 Speaker 1: show how how deep Jack the Ripper has penetrated into 1641 02:20:20,959 --> 02:20:24,360 Speaker 1: the national psyche in in some cases you can see 1642 02:20:24,360 --> 02:20:29,199 Speaker 1: how the name has been used in everything from advertising, 1643 02:20:29,520 --> 02:20:36,360 Speaker 1: which virtually began as the murders were being committed, right 1644 02:20:36,400 --> 02:20:38,879 Speaker 1: through is everything. There was a worldwide World War Two 1645 02:20:38,879 --> 02:20:43,039 Speaker 1: bomber called Jack the Ripper. There's everything from a toilet 1646 02:20:43,080 --> 02:20:46,440 Speaker 1: spray to a computer game being mat to a novel 1647 02:20:46,520 --> 02:20:49,400 Speaker 1: or a movie or even an opera all about Jack 1648 02:20:49,440 --> 02:20:55,280 Speaker 1: the Ripper. So that's an area that is a very 1649 02:20:55,400 --> 02:21:00,760 Speaker 1: valid area for study. And I'm sure that just as 1650 02:21:00,760 --> 02:21:08,000 Speaker 1: there have been books written just about the TV and 1651 02:21:08,240 --> 02:21:11,680 Speaker 1: movies about Jack the Ripper, I'm sure that somebody at 1652 02:21:11,680 --> 02:21:14,480 Speaker 1: some point is going to write a popular culture book, 1653 02:21:15,160 --> 02:21:19,359 Speaker 1: probably quite an academic one which I wouldn't understand, about 1654 02:21:20,000 --> 02:21:24,280 Speaker 1: about the way that Jack the Ripper is part of 1655 02:21:24,280 --> 02:21:29,040 Speaker 1: of everything that's going on today. And and then of course, 1656 02:21:29,200 --> 02:21:33,200 Speaker 1: right at the end is the is Jack the Ripper 1657 02:21:33,320 --> 02:21:38,240 Speaker 1: is a mystery and understanding perhaps even solving it, you 1658 02:21:38,360 --> 02:21:41,920 Speaker 1: have to study the evidence. You have to know how 1659 02:21:42,000 --> 02:21:48,240 Speaker 1: people lived and so on, because all of how they 1660 02:21:48,320 --> 02:21:51,920 Speaker 1: lived could have a bearing on what they did and 1661 02:21:52,000 --> 02:21:55,720 Speaker 1: therefore ultimately lead to perhaps a discovery of who the 1662 02:21:55,800 --> 02:22:00,600 Speaker 1: murderer was or getting close to that now means you've 1663 02:22:01,080 --> 02:22:03,720 Speaker 1: got to, as I said, you have to read books, 1664 02:22:03,720 --> 02:22:07,440 Speaker 1: which is no bad thing. You've got to learn about sources, 1665 02:22:07,879 --> 02:22:13,360 Speaker 1: which ones are and which ones aren't reliable, all sorts 1666 02:22:13,400 --> 02:22:17,400 Speaker 1: of things that that historians do. That's part of their job. 1667 02:22:19,160 --> 02:22:25,240 Speaker 1: And many of those things have applications in in our world, 1668 02:22:26,320 --> 02:22:30,120 Speaker 1: ah such as now there is an increasing need to 1669 02:22:30,160 --> 02:22:35,600 Speaker 1: distinguish between trustworthy and untrustworthy news stories and blogs and 1670 02:22:35,640 --> 02:22:42,320 Speaker 1: web pages goodness knows what else. And looking at the 1671 02:22:42,400 --> 02:22:47,959 Speaker 1: Ripper mystery is a good way of learning how um, 1672 02:22:48,879 --> 02:22:53,000 Speaker 1: how to do these things and how to be uh 1673 02:22:54,400 --> 02:22:59,800 Speaker 1: so analytical and and how to understand sources and in 1674 02:23:00,040 --> 02:23:05,080 Speaker 1: many respects in schools where Jack Ripper is taught, because 1675 02:23:05,120 --> 02:23:12,039 Speaker 1: it adds that frision of of excitement too otherwise tedious 1676 02:23:12,160 --> 02:23:18,160 Speaker 1: life in Victorian Britain, but it teaches people how to 1677 02:23:20,480 --> 02:23:24,360 Speaker 1: about things like very simple historians one of one stuff 1678 02:23:24,440 --> 02:23:27,560 Speaker 1: like what is the primary source, what's the secondary source? 1679 02:23:27,840 --> 02:23:33,320 Speaker 1: What's a tertiary source? Are news for make newspapers one 1680 02:23:33,360 --> 02:23:35,680 Speaker 1: of those? Which so which one? And how do you 1681 02:23:35,720 --> 02:23:41,440 Speaker 1: distinguish between the editorial in a newspaper and a news 1682 02:23:41,440 --> 02:23:45,600 Speaker 1: story all of that kind of stuff. So Jack the 1683 02:23:45,680 --> 02:23:48,640 Speaker 1: Ripper really does have an area where it teaches. It 1684 02:23:48,680 --> 02:23:53,200 Speaker 1: can teach people things on so many different levels, and 1685 02:23:53,280 --> 02:23:55,840 Speaker 1: that for me, I think is the thing. And I 1686 02:23:55,879 --> 02:23:59,480 Speaker 1: suppose as a writer, if you want to understand Jack 1687 02:23:59,520 --> 02:24:02,879 Speaker 1: the Ripper, you're gonna read books, which is great because 1688 02:24:02,920 --> 02:24:04,840 Speaker 1: then you can go out in my mind and help 1689 02:24:05,000 --> 02:24:12,480 Speaker 1: to brilliant Billiam Paul. That's it for this week's episode 1690 02:24:12,600 --> 02:24:38,840 Speaker 1: of Unobscured. Unobscured was created by me Aaron Manky and 1691 02:24:38,879 --> 02:24:42,200 Speaker 1: produced by Matt Frederick, Alex Williams, and Josh Thane in 1692 02:24:42,280 --> 02:24:45,600 Speaker 1: partnership with I Heart Radio. Research and writing for this 1693 02:24:45,680 --> 02:24:47,920 Speaker 1: season is all the work of my right hand man 1694 02:24:48,000 --> 02:24:51,199 Speaker 1: Carl Nellis and the brilliant Chad Lawson composed the brand 1695 02:24:51,280 --> 02:24:55,800 Speaker 1: new soundtrack. Learn more about our contributing historians, source material 1696 02:24:56,040 --> 02:24:59,199 Speaker 1: and links to our other shows over at History unobscured 1697 02:24:59,440 --> 02:25:03,520 Speaker 1: dot com. M HM, and until next time, thanks for listening. 1698 02:25:10,959 --> 02:25:13,520 Speaker 1: Unobscured is a production of I Heart Radio and Aaron Menkey. 1699 02:25:13,760 --> 02:25:16,320 Speaker 1: For more podcasts for my Heart Radio, visit I heart Radio, app, 1700 02:25:16,400 --> 02:25:18,879 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. 1701 02:25:22,040 --> 02:25:22,080 Speaker 1: H