1 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:28,680 Speaker 1: Pushkambe Election Night, New York City, nineteen ninety three Staten Island. 2 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:30,360 Speaker 2: Cables first time and that is hooking up all the 3 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:32,280 Speaker 2: headquarters live via Tell. 4 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:36,200 Speaker 1: That is Staten Island Cable's host Frank Sepola. Remember Frank, 5 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:39,959 Speaker 1: former assistant press secretary for the Staten Island Borough President, 6 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:42,200 Speaker 1: the one who got yelled at in those sham meetings 7 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:45,240 Speaker 1: late into the night. He got a new job which 8 00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 1: gave him a front row seat to the big vote. 9 00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 2: Markie live here on Channel seventy seven from Secession headquarters 10 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:55,120 Speaker 2: at the Island Chateau, Channel seventy seven bringing you that live. 11 00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:01,120 Speaker 1: The end of the campaign had been crazy. Staten Island 12 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:03,880 Speaker 1: Borough President Guy Maul and Airy drove around the island 13 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 1: in something called the Freedom of Us talking Secession. Staten 14 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:10,040 Speaker 1: Island politicians worked the rush hour a fair is to 15 00:01:10,039 --> 00:01:13,040 Speaker 1: try and gin up more votes to secede, and on 16 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:16,039 Speaker 1: election night it looked like it had all paid off. 17 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:20,080 Speaker 2: We go to Monica to Clerico at the Island Chateau 18 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 2: with the latest results. 19 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:23,159 Speaker 3: Monica, there's a new. 20 00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 4: Total coming in. 21 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:30,080 Speaker 5: Well, there you have it, Flank, that sixty six percent 22 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:30,799 Speaker 5: is the total. 23 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:31,120 Speaker 6: Now. 24 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 2: The atmosphere here is it's like a party. 25 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:36,679 Speaker 1: The numbers were huge. 26 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:40,479 Speaker 7: You know, it's funny ten years ago when Senator Markey 27 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:43,120 Speaker 7: first introduced the word secession, if people thought of it 28 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:43,759 Speaker 7: as a joke. 29 00:01:44,039 --> 00:01:47,119 Speaker 2: Absolutely, we know very well that this is no joke. 30 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 1: It was a landslide. People were celebrating all over the island. 31 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:56,719 Speaker 1: State Senator John Marky gave a victory speech. He was 32 00:01:56,760 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 1: the chief sponsor on the bill to secede in the 33 00:01:58,720 --> 00:01:59,240 Speaker 1: first place. 34 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:03,080 Speaker 3: Do you realize as a city that can plan for 35 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:05,480 Speaker 3: its own and doesn't have to say may I, may 36 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 3: I do this and may I do that? 37 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 1: Are you going to people on the island voted almost 38 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 1: two to one in favor of secession. 39 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:17,880 Speaker 4: Javane Borrow, I don't know. 40 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:19,760 Speaker 5: I think we just might get rid of that nickname. 41 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:26,280 Speaker 1: Dan Singletary. Was there that artists who had found on 42 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:28,880 Speaker 1: those old tapes passionately arguing for secession. 43 00:02:29,920 --> 00:02:32,240 Speaker 4: Dan, Obviously your efforts have not been in vain. 44 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:35,359 Speaker 5: Did you ever expect to see such political fervor as 45 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 5: you've seen tonight? 46 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:38,520 Speaker 8: This was one of the most wonderful nights I think for. 47 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:40,960 Speaker 9: Stephane Island, for the New York City, and for New 48 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 9: York State. 49 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 1: It was decisive, or so they thought. As many of 50 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 1: you listening already know, Staten Island wasn't going anywhere. It 51 00:02:56,200 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 1: would remain part of New York City. Somewhere in the 52 00:02:59,880 --> 00:03:05,240 Speaker 1: back of his mind, Singletary knew that too. When did 53 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 1: you realize that? 54 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:07,960 Speaker 9: Well, I was getting done pretty close to the. 55 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:10,440 Speaker 1: Towards the end of this problem. Since you're like, this 56 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:13,840 Speaker 1: might actually not happened. 57 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:16,240 Speaker 9: I said, but it had to do something. And I said, 58 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:18,440 Speaker 9: you know, if we got something out of this was 59 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:19,440 Speaker 9: better than what we were. 60 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 1: The vote was a referendum. It was Staten Island saying 61 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:27,640 Speaker 1: we want to leave, but the New York State government 62 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:31,040 Speaker 1: was going to have the final say. And the next year, 63 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 1: when the referendum came before the State Assembly, the speaker 64 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 1: just killed it. It was dead in the water. 65 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:44,560 Speaker 9: I hoped that it might be possible, but I know 66 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 9: the probability of all that is so difficult. 67 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 1: Someone else had to have known where all this was going, too, Guymullinary. 68 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 1: This was supposed to be the biggest night in his 69 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:05,160 Speaker 1: borough's history, and yet he was nowhere to be found 70 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 1: on the island. Instead, he was in Manhattan with his 71 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:16,359 Speaker 1: good friend Rudolph Giuliani, who was at that moment being 72 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:32,160 Speaker 1: elected mayor of New York City. When I started this series, 73 00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:34,680 Speaker 1: I told you that this story would amount to a 74 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:39,159 Speaker 1: big argument about where our country finds itself today. There's 75 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:41,360 Speaker 1: an old way of thinking about time that I love 76 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:44,560 Speaker 1: from the Middle Ages. The idea is that time doesn't 77 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:47,840 Speaker 1: just go horizontally where today is closest to tomorrow, but 78 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:52,720 Speaker 1: also vertically, that certain days are closer to all their 79 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:57,720 Speaker 1: earlier incarnations. Christmas this year is nearer to Christmas last 80 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:00,800 Speaker 1: year than it is to December twenty sixth. It's like 81 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:02,040 Speaker 1: a wormhole. 82 00:05:03,280 --> 00:05:03,400 Speaker 10: In. 83 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:06,120 Speaker 1: What I'm proposing is that when voters went to the 84 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 1: polls on November two, nineteen ninety three, to a elect 85 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:12,320 Speaker 1: a mayor and decide whether or not to break New 86 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:15,040 Speaker 1: York City up and send Staten Island off on its own, 87 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:20,200 Speaker 1: that day was very close to election Day twenty sixteen, 88 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 1: that the era we are living in now has everything 89 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:27,640 Speaker 1: to do with that moment. Then that, as a historian 90 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:31,160 Speaker 1: told me when I began, all this America really does 91 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 1: happen first in New York City, and the America happening 92 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:39,360 Speaker 1: now is something you could see first in the Staten 93 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:44,159 Speaker 1: Island Secession movement, and even more critically, in the man 94 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:49,360 Speaker 1: that movement gave us New York City Mayor, Rudy Giuliani. 95 00:05:52,280 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 1: I'm Ben Mattahaffrey. This is the Staten Island problem. Our 96 00:05:56,440 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 1: final episode Revenge of the Forgotten Borough. Okay, so let's rewind. 97 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:14,240 Speaker 1: I want to focus in on the time leading up 98 00:06:14,280 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 1: to that nineteen ninety three election because I realized that 99 00:06:17,280 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 1: Rudy Giuliani and Staten Island Secession were being driven by 100 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:24,360 Speaker 1: the same engine, and I wanted to understand what that 101 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:25,039 Speaker 1: engine was. 102 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 8: The practice of politics in this city stinks. 103 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 11: I mean it is. 104 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:33,320 Speaker 8: It is an old fashioned way of practicing politics. 105 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:36,880 Speaker 1: America. First met Rudy Giuliani as a crusader who took 106 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 1: on the mob. As US Attorney for the Southern District 107 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:43,279 Speaker 1: of New York. He went after corruption everywhere on Wall 108 00:06:43,280 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 1: Street and especially in New York City government. 109 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:51,240 Speaker 8: Crooked politicians and crooked bosses of political organizations that are 110 00:06:51,280 --> 00:06:54,239 Speaker 8: running counties that are in dire need of honest, decent 111 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 8: people running those counties who are raping those counties for 112 00:06:56,840 --> 00:06:57,680 Speaker 8: their own advantage. 113 00:06:58,840 --> 00:07:01,680 Speaker 1: And one of the very first people encouraging Giuliani to 114 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:05,680 Speaker 1: consider running for a higher office was Staten Island's borough president, 115 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 1: Guy mulin Aiy. 116 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:11,400 Speaker 11: I think that they had a special kind of relationship 117 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 11: with friendship. It went beyond friendship. It was like extended family. 118 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:20,880 Speaker 1: Randy Mastro worked with Giuliani in the US Attorney's office 119 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 1: and later as his first deputy mayor, and he witnessed 120 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:26,520 Speaker 1: Mollinari's relationship with Giuliani firsthand. 121 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:32,560 Speaker 11: A lot of similarities and backgrounds. Italian Americans, working class 122 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 11: family backgrounds shared a lot of the same values. 123 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 1: Giuliani was born in Brooklyn. He was a very serious child. 124 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 1: He would sit on his front stoop and read while 125 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 1: the other kids played stickball. He started the opera club 126 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:51,280 Speaker 1: in high school. He wanted to be a priest. His 127 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:55,600 Speaker 1: college girlfriend remembered quote he liked to say, Rudolph William 128 00:07:55,680 --> 00:08:00,040 Speaker 1: Louis Giuliani the third the first Italian Catholic president of 129 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 1: the United States. Mollinary was with Giuliani from the very beginning. 130 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 1: The day Giuliani announced his first mayoral run in nineteen 131 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 1: eighty nine, it was Mollinary who went to all five 132 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:16,240 Speaker 1: boroughs with him, making introductions. Part of what they shared 133 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 1: was an outer borough view of the city. Both were 134 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:22,680 Speaker 1: familiar with the politics of white people living on the periphery, 135 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 1: and while some Staten Islanders were trying to leave the 136 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:30,840 Speaker 1: city entirely, Mollinary was looking for someone who could remake 137 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:32,400 Speaker 1: it in Staten Island's image. 138 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:37,960 Speaker 11: I think that there was definitely a sense in both 139 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 11: their parts about being fair to every borough, and that 140 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:44,200 Speaker 11: Manhattan had probably been favored by many prior mayors. 141 00:08:45,839 --> 00:08:49,080 Speaker 1: David Dinkins beat Giuliani during the mayoral election of nineteen 142 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 1: eighty nine and became the city's first black mayor. But 143 00:08:52,439 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 1: that election had been a warning sign to liberals in 144 00:08:54,839 --> 00:08:59,359 Speaker 1: New York. Giuliani had lost by the slimmest margin of 145 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:04,079 Speaker 1: any mayoral race since nineteen oh five. His supporters were angry. 146 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:06,640 Speaker 1: They demanded a recount. 147 00:09:10,959 --> 00:09:12,759 Speaker 11: Please relax and just listen. 148 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:14,679 Speaker 12: He will be. 149 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 11: Wait, There's plenty of time. 150 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:25,720 Speaker 13: The first political campaign I covered in New York City 151 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:29,800 Speaker 13: was Rudy Giuliani's second run from very successful run, and 152 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:33,080 Speaker 13: I went with him on a to Staten Island. 153 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:37,840 Speaker 1: What oh yeah. Malcolm Gladwell, reporter covering New York for 154 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:41,079 Speaker 1: The Washington Post back then, who somehow waited until our 155 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:43,559 Speaker 1: final episode to reveal to me that he had met 156 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:46,320 Speaker 1: Giuliani and gone to Staten Island with him. In nineteen 157 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:49,120 Speaker 1: ninety three, he wrote about it in an article called 158 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:51,239 Speaker 1: Rudy Giuliani's Whispered Revolt. 159 00:09:52,319 --> 00:09:55,320 Speaker 13: I spent the day on a We started in the morning, 160 00:09:55,359 --> 00:09:57,280 Speaker 13: we took the you know, got in the cavalcade, we 161 00:09:57,280 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 13: went over the bridge, and I ended up came back 162 00:09:59,719 --> 00:10:01,439 Speaker 13: late at night, and he did, you know, he did 163 00:10:01,439 --> 00:10:04,760 Speaker 13: events all throughout the day, and it was very clear 164 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:08,400 Speaker 13: that like these were his people, even though he's a 165 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:11,240 Speaker 13: form me, he's Flatbush, he's not, you know, he's an Italian, 166 00:10:11,319 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 13: but they were. It's the italianness, and it's a sense 167 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:14,720 Speaker 13: of grievance. 168 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 1: It's it's the people who resent Manhattan. 169 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:21,439 Speaker 13: Resent Manhattan. And the kind of and also his close affiliation. 170 00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:22,320 Speaker 14: With the police. 171 00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 13: It's such a kind of cop guy, and that is 172 00:10:25,079 --> 00:10:26,959 Speaker 13: that set down as Cop Central. 173 00:10:27,959 --> 00:10:30,800 Speaker 1: Giuliani spoke to exactly the kind of person who might 174 00:10:30,839 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 1: want to secede from New York. He promised to do 175 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:36,239 Speaker 1: whatever it took to put New York City to order again. 176 00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:39,640 Speaker 1: He would be Bruce Wayne to New York's Gotham as 177 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:42,880 Speaker 1: US attorney. He seemed to love, to publicly shame his 178 00:10:42,959 --> 00:10:47,079 Speaker 1: victims with these dramatic purp walks. His message was that 179 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 1: all the other mayors had been too tolerant. He promised 180 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 1: a kind of illiberalism, zero tolerance. 181 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 13: But the thing about Rudy is that Rudy is not 182 00:10:56,880 --> 00:11:02,960 Speaker 13: fun right, He's not genteel, He's not sophisticated in the 183 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:06,959 Speaker 13: way that some of these other characters are. There's something 184 00:11:07,079 --> 00:11:11,439 Speaker 13: angry and kind of mean and kind of course about him. 185 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:14,960 Speaker 13: And coming into the New York City political scene for 186 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:18,240 Speaker 13: the first time, he realizes he has to He realized 187 00:11:18,319 --> 00:11:20,399 Speaker 13: is not going to he's himself at that point. It's 188 00:11:20,439 --> 00:11:23,199 Speaker 13: not going to fly. It's too much of a departure. 189 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:26,400 Speaker 13: So he has to kind of play it down, play 190 00:11:26,439 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 13: down his true essential roodiness. 191 00:11:31,479 --> 00:11:33,559 Speaker 1: For a few years now, I've had a question about 192 00:11:33,599 --> 00:11:36,840 Speaker 1: that true essential roudiness. Is he the same guy now 193 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:39,559 Speaker 1: as he was then? People used to think of him 194 00:11:39,599 --> 00:11:42,439 Speaker 1: as America's mayor, the guy we depended on during nine 195 00:11:42,439 --> 00:11:44,759 Speaker 1: to eleven, or the guy who cleaned up New York City. 196 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 1: They don't recognize that guy in Rudy today, standing in 197 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:52,759 Speaker 1: the parking lot. Four seasons total landscaping, spreading lies about 198 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:56,879 Speaker 1: stolen elections. That's why I'm so interested in understanding the 199 00:11:56,920 --> 00:12:01,800 Speaker 1: Giuliani of long ago, because I think that actually he's 200 00:12:01,839 --> 00:12:05,559 Speaker 1: always been the same Rudy, And there's a specific moment 201 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:08,360 Speaker 1: back in the nineties when you could see it clearly. 202 00:12:11,839 --> 00:12:14,879 Speaker 1: One morning, a year before the ninety three election, Rudy 203 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:18,160 Speaker 1: Giuliani and Guy Mullinery met up for a very faithful day. 204 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:23,160 Speaker 1: The police union had organized a protest. They were angry 205 00:12:23,199 --> 00:12:25,800 Speaker 1: about a series of riots where they felt Mayor Dinkins 206 00:12:25,839 --> 00:12:29,719 Speaker 1: had betrayed them Washington Heights and Crown Heights. They were 207 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:31,840 Speaker 1: angry that he had a big plan to put more 208 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:36,040 Speaker 1: civilian oversight on the police. So they gathered outside a 209 00:12:36,079 --> 00:12:38,439 Speaker 1: place where they knew they'd get some attention. 210 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:41,840 Speaker 7: It was a show, of course, on the steps of 211 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:45,600 Speaker 7: New York City Hall. Ten thousand off duty cops banded 212 00:12:45,599 --> 00:12:48,920 Speaker 7: together in protest, set up and angry with a city 213 00:12:48,959 --> 00:12:50,559 Speaker 7: they claim doesn't back them up. 214 00:12:52,079 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 1: There were ten thousand off duty cops. Many were drunk, 215 00:12:55,359 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 1: and things started getting out of hand. They began to 216 00:12:58,199 --> 00:13:08,319 Speaker 1: climb on cars, chanting Dinkins must go. They held signs 217 00:13:08,319 --> 00:13:11,200 Speaker 1: with racist caricatures of Dinkins with huge lips and a 218 00:13:11,239 --> 00:13:15,800 Speaker 1: gigantic Afro, calling him a washroom attendant. They intimidated a 219 00:13:15,839 --> 00:13:19,120 Speaker 1: black councilwoman as she tried to cross the street. People 220 00:13:19,239 --> 00:13:23,600 Speaker 1: hurled racial epithets. Then they charged up the steps of 221 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:27,400 Speaker 1: City Hall. A reporter told CBS what he'd seen. 222 00:13:28,479 --> 00:13:31,520 Speaker 10: They climbed the very steps of government and felt comfortable 223 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:34,719 Speaker 10: to call the mayor of the city a nigger. It's outrageous. 224 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:37,840 Speaker 10: If David Duke had a police department, it would look 225 00:13:38,079 --> 00:13:41,400 Speaker 10: and sound like this group of people who assaulted our senses. 226 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:46,960 Speaker 4: I was in city Hall at the time. 227 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:47,839 Speaker 7: The mayor wasn't. 228 00:13:48,839 --> 00:13:52,319 Speaker 1: First deputy mayor at the time, Norman Stizel. Dinkins was 229 00:13:52,359 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 1: actually uptown at a funeral, and so you're the highest 230 00:13:57,079 --> 00:13:58,360 Speaker 1: ranking person at city. 231 00:13:58,120 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 3: Hall, yes, I was. 232 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:03,000 Speaker 11: They decided to basically they were thinking about storming city Hall. 233 00:14:04,199 --> 00:14:07,559 Speaker 1: Police inside told Steizel they had an evacuation plan through 234 00:14:07,599 --> 00:14:13,279 Speaker 1: an unused stable in the back. At some point in 235 00:14:13,319 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 1: all this, Rudy Giuliani arrived at City Hall. The head 236 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:19,639 Speaker 1: of the police union asked him to try to calm 237 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:23,239 Speaker 1: things down. He said, he led a small group out 238 00:14:23,239 --> 00:14:25,800 Speaker 1: of the main area and over to a protest outside 239 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:28,200 Speaker 1: the plaza where there was a stage on a truck bed. 240 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:33,119 Speaker 1: Guy Moulin Airy had already spoken there. Giuliani got up. 241 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:36,759 Speaker 1: He'd seen the out of control rage and hate at 242 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:41,400 Speaker 1: Dinkins and had a choice calm things down or feed 243 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:43,920 Speaker 1: the fire. He chose the latter. 244 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:48,240 Speaker 2: The raven the burrale of the Police Department of the 245 00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 2: City of New York is so low with one raven 246 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 2: and one raven alone Ramon. 247 00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:00,080 Speaker 1: He said the move to increase oversight on the cops 248 00:15:00,239 --> 00:15:04,600 Speaker 1: was just quote to protect David Dinkins's political ass. He 249 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 1: said Dinkins's policies were quote bullshit. Steizele still inside City 250 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 1: Hall heard. 251 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:17,920 Speaker 15: Everything, and there's no question on my mind that that's 252 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:18,760 Speaker 15: what he talked about. 253 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 7: When he got up on the stage. 254 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:20,840 Speaker 4: You could hear him. 255 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:25,520 Speaker 16: It was, you know, right outside where we were, so. 256 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:27,760 Speaker 1: I don't know, you felt he was inciting, Well, there 257 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 1: was no question about it. 258 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:34,960 Speaker 14: Yeah. 259 00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:37,759 Speaker 1: The rioters veered away from City Hall and blocked traffic 260 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:42,160 Speaker 1: on the Brooklyn Bridge. Instead, they threatened drivers. One rider 261 00:15:42,239 --> 00:15:45,239 Speaker 1: kicked a New York Times reporter in the stomach. Another 262 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:47,479 Speaker 1: group of cops found a car with older black people 263 00:15:47,479 --> 00:15:51,239 Speaker 1: inside and began to shove it back and forth. Dinkins 264 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:52,920 Speaker 1: was outraged. 265 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 4: For Rudy Giuliani to. 266 00:15:56,239 --> 00:15:56,800 Speaker 6: Urge them on. 267 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 8: As it were, he demonstrates an irresponsibility on his behalf. 268 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:08,560 Speaker 1: I started having this weird feeling as I work on 269 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:11,840 Speaker 1: this series that I've think of as the flicker. Like 270 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 1: when I'm riding the subway listening to Wu Tang. The 271 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:19,160 Speaker 1: cars have less graffiti, but they're basically the same tim cans, 272 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:22,440 Speaker 1: and sometimes something shifts and I feel like I'm looking 273 00:16:22,479 --> 00:16:25,960 Speaker 1: at the world thirty years ago. The same thing happened 274 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 1: when I watched what little tape remains of the riot. 275 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:32,519 Speaker 1: Something flickers and suddenly I feel like I'm looking at 276 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:37,280 Speaker 1: the twenty twenties. After the break, I want to take 277 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:40,240 Speaker 1: you to a rural part of Wisconsin that helped me 278 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:59,999 Speaker 1: understand why. Sometime in the year two thousand and seven, 279 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 1: a political scientist living in Wisconsin decided to leave the 280 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:06,960 Speaker 1: city of Madison and start driving around the state. 281 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:11,080 Speaker 5: I knew that if I wanted understand how people make 282 00:17:11,120 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 5: sense of politics, the best way to do that is 283 00:17:13,120 --> 00:17:14,200 Speaker 5: to listen to them. 284 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:18,119 Speaker 1: Catherine Kramer, professor at the University of Wisconsin. 285 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:23,040 Speaker 5: There's something going on in these rural communities. That's very 286 00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:25,080 Speaker 5: similar all across the state. 287 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:34,200 Speaker 1: She started hanging out at gas stations, athletic clubs, diners, 288 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 1: any place she could find a civic association outside one 289 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:41,240 Speaker 1: of the big cities. She realized that she kept hearing 290 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:47,879 Speaker 1: the same conversation in all of them. 291 00:17:46,120 --> 00:17:51,080 Speaker 5: Like a simmering emotion, right, it's different from anger, and 292 00:17:51,120 --> 00:17:54,359 Speaker 5: that it's just kind of this we might say, like 293 00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:59,000 Speaker 5: a chip on your shoulder, a sense of like these 294 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:00,720 Speaker 5: people pissed me off. I'm trying to make you a 295 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:03,280 Speaker 5: nicer way of saying, but like those people piss me off, 296 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:06,400 Speaker 5: and they just don't understand me. Those people don't respect me. 297 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:11,080 Speaker 5: This sense of I'm not getting my fair share in 298 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:13,000 Speaker 5: like three important respects. 299 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:17,680 Speaker 1: Those three respects, Kramer says, our money, the feeling that 300 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:20,760 Speaker 1: all the jobs and resources are somewhere else, namely the 301 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:24,960 Speaker 1: citi's power, the idea that all the decisions are also 302 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 1: made in the cities. And finally, respect, also something cities 303 00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:35,240 Speaker 1: get more of than rural places. Together, this all adds 304 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:38,080 Speaker 1: up to a feeling resentment. 305 00:18:40,120 --> 00:18:42,880 Speaker 5: It's not that they just don't understand us, they don't care, 306 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:46,480 Speaker 5: and they don't like us like they think we're not 307 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:50,320 Speaker 5: worth listening to because they think we're uneducated and backward 308 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:53,240 Speaker 5: and sexist and homophobic and what have you. 309 00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:58,440 Speaker 1: This feeling has always existed, country focating city folk, city 310 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:02,240 Speaker 1: folk thinking country folk are backwards. But what Kramer found 311 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:05,120 Speaker 1: is you could put numbers to it, and it had 312 00:19:05,120 --> 00:19:08,960 Speaker 1: gotten a whole lot more intense starting in the nineteen seventies. 313 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:13,160 Speaker 1: And it wasn't just rural urban It was about anything 314 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:15,920 Speaker 1: on the periphery of the big cities, which were only 315 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:16,520 Speaker 1: getting bigger. 316 00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:22,680 Speaker 17: These sentiments show up in so many places and parts 317 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:29,240 Speaker 17: of our population, right that sense of low boiling resentment 318 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:35,200 Speaker 17: towards the people in charge, like who doesn't feel that? 319 00:19:35,360 --> 00:19:35,840 Speaker 17: Right now? 320 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:42,040 Speaker 1: Secession was the manifestation of that same feeling, and it 321 00:19:42,120 --> 00:19:46,680 Speaker 1: expressed itself in two ways. A vote for secession and 322 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:51,359 Speaker 1: a vote for Giuliani on election night after they'd lost. 323 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:54,240 Speaker 1: That had been very clear to the Dincoin's campaign. 324 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:58,720 Speaker 4: What defeated us was the succession issue on the ballot 325 00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:02,440 Speaker 4: at Stanton Island, which stimulated churn out there way out 326 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:04,040 Speaker 4: of proportion. Would exp roal trentot. 327 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:07,800 Speaker 1: So many people had come out to vote for secession 328 00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 1: on Staten Island way more more than had voted in 329 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty nine. In eighty two percent of the people 330 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:18,080 Speaker 1: on Staten Island voted for Giuliani. The vote from the 331 00:20:18,120 --> 00:20:21,000 Speaker 1: forgotten borough is a big part of how we got 332 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:24,320 Speaker 1: Mayor Giuliani, the first Republican mayor of New York City 333 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 1: in decades, taking the stage at the New York Hilt 334 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:29,000 Speaker 1: him I'm. 335 00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:32,760 Speaker 3: Standing before you as the next mayor of New York City. 336 00:20:38,360 --> 00:20:42,640 Speaker 1: The next day, Dinkins's chief political officer said, quote, the 337 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:45,399 Speaker 1: only surprise, as far as I am concerned, was the 338 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:48,480 Speaker 1: size of the Staten Island numbers. You can show what 339 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:51,600 Speaker 1: I consider minor increases for Rudy across the board, but 340 00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 1: not major ones. If you fit Staten Island into the mix, 341 00:20:55,960 --> 00:21:02,400 Speaker 1: there is the difference. Staten Island was part of a 342 00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:05,680 Speaker 1: movement of people saying we don't believe the sum is 343 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:07,720 Speaker 1: greater than the parts, and we'd like to go our 344 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:10,800 Speaker 1: own way. Actually, it was the most outer borough of 345 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:13,119 Speaker 1: the outer boroughs saying they wanted to be the center, 346 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:17,600 Speaker 1: not the periphery. For some it was absolutely about race, 347 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:21,960 Speaker 1: but it was also about respect, about geography. It was 348 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:24,680 Speaker 1: about not wanting to be the dump anymore, and they 349 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:28,680 Speaker 1: started a movement that changed their reality by electing a 350 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:32,280 Speaker 1: leader who was outer Borough himself, who understood what it 351 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:35,000 Speaker 1: meant to be on the periphery and both hate and 352 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:40,320 Speaker 1: need the center. Giuliani made the ferry free. He invested 353 00:21:40,360 --> 00:21:43,280 Speaker 1: almost half a billion dollars in the Staten Island waterfront. 354 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:46,159 Speaker 1: He got them that baseball park I used to go 355 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:48,040 Speaker 1: to in the summers when I just moved to New 356 00:21:48,120 --> 00:21:51,480 Speaker 1: York City. But the biggest thing he gave them is 357 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:54,800 Speaker 1: that he and Guy Mullinery managed to close the dump. 358 00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:58,920 Speaker 1: On March twenty second, two thousand and one, the last 359 00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:03,480 Speaker 1: barge of trash sailed out for fresh kills. Giuliani stood 360 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:07,200 Speaker 1: on his porch and saluted as it passed. The dump was, 361 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:10,240 Speaker 1: at that point the largest man made object on earth. 362 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:13,760 Speaker 8: The process of Staten Island bearing the burden of the 363 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:17,680 Speaker 8: rest of the city's garbage was inequitable, and now it's 364 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 8: over for good. 365 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:23,080 Speaker 1: For the rest of the city, particularly it's black and 366 00:22:23,120 --> 00:22:26,520 Speaker 1: brown residents, the results were more mixed. There was a 367 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:30,000 Speaker 1: viciousness to his efforts to clean up the city. Homeless 368 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 1: people were denied shelter or forced to pay. Giuliani often 369 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:36,880 Speaker 1: refused to meet with black leaders. Cops were sent out 370 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:40,760 Speaker 1: to quote empty the streets. Executives at the local public 371 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:43,720 Speaker 1: radio station said that at some point they heard Juliani 372 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:46,160 Speaker 1: say that his goal was to get poor people to 373 00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:51,880 Speaker 1: leave New York. Today we call that self deporting. Frank Sapola, 374 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:54,680 Speaker 1: the cable news guy, remembers you couldn't challenge him on 375 00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:55,159 Speaker 1: any of it. 376 00:22:56,720 --> 00:22:59,800 Speaker 3: I had screaming arguments with him at press conference because 377 00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:01,760 Speaker 3: I would ask a question and he would say, Ah, 378 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:02,880 Speaker 3: that's a stupid question. 379 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:05,480 Speaker 10: I said, according to who I'm asking the question, and 380 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:06,600 Speaker 10: I wasn't the only one. 381 00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:08,680 Speaker 14: He would just look at reporters and say, you're an idiot. 382 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:10,880 Speaker 4: That's a stupid I'm not going to answer that stupid question. 383 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:16,440 Speaker 1: And there was another New Yorker, I'm guessing you're familiar with, 384 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:20,400 Speaker 1: who grew up in the outer boroughs too, and thought, 385 00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:23,359 Speaker 1: this is what a great leader looks like. 386 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:29,360 Speaker 3: Donald Trump announcing tonight the formation tomorrow of a committee 387 00:23:29,360 --> 00:23:31,840 Speaker 3: to look into the possibility of his running for the 388 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:34,000 Speaker 3: presidency of the United States. 389 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:38,280 Speaker 1: This is a clip from Larry King Live in nineteen 390 00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 1: ninety nine, one of the first times Trump flirts with 391 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:45,240 Speaker 1: running for president. That year, Hillary Clinton was gearing up 392 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:49,080 Speaker 1: for her race against Giuliani from New York Senator, what 393 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:49,320 Speaker 1: do you. 394 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 3: Make of the Hillary Julian here. I know you're a 395 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:52,920 Speaker 3: big fan of Juliani. 396 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:54,840 Speaker 2: I am, and I like her very much. But I 397 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:56,800 Speaker 2: think Rudy and as I said before, he's been the 398 00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:59,680 Speaker 2: greatest mayor in the history of the city of Mire 399 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:01,840 Speaker 2: and people maybe some people don't like him and some 400 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:04,520 Speaker 2: people love him totally. I happen to be in love 401 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:07,000 Speaker 2: because the guy, not because I love Rudy, because he's 402 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:08,200 Speaker 2: done an incredible job. 403 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:08,960 Speaker 10: He's the best. 404 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:10,480 Speaker 2: I mean, he's just done a great job. 405 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:15,120 Speaker 1: Trump grew up in Queens in an environment a lot 406 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:18,960 Speaker 1: like Giuliani, wanting, like Giuliani, to put his mark on Manhattan, 407 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:21,960 Speaker 1: to build the biggest towers and put his name on them, 408 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:26,880 Speaker 1: to be respected, even though it would always elude him. 409 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:28,960 Speaker 1: Giuliani was the model. 410 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:33,119 Speaker 2: I mean the polls generally speaking. National Inquiry did a 411 00:24:33,120 --> 00:24:36,240 Speaker 2: poll that's unbelievable, that says a win, that you beat 412 00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:38,800 Speaker 2: everybody right into the White House. 413 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:50,560 Speaker 1: When Rudy Giuliani took the stage at the New York 414 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:53,920 Speaker 1: Hilton to celebrate his election, it was the same stage 415 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:59,080 Speaker 1: Donald Trump would take thirty three years later, celebrating his presidency, the. 416 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:03,600 Speaker 2: Forgotten men and women of our country will be forgotten 417 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:04,200 Speaker 2: no longer. 418 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:11,159 Speaker 1: There's a history to that term forgotten, the forgotten borough, 419 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:14,600 Speaker 1: the forgotten men and women. Around the time in the 420 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:16,880 Speaker 1: middle of the twentieth century that the civil rights movement 421 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:19,919 Speaker 1: had really picked up, there had been a shift, and 422 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 1: white middle class and working class people started thinking of 423 00:25:23,360 --> 00:25:26,440 Speaker 1: themselves as forgotten, that they had been left behind in 424 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:30,040 Speaker 1: the name of progress. Those are the threads that political 425 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:33,720 Speaker 1: scientist Katharine Kramer was teasing a part in Wisconsin, and 426 00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:35,280 Speaker 1: she wrote it up in a book about all this, 427 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 1: called The Politics of Resentment. That book came out in 428 00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:43,920 Speaker 1: March twenty sixteen, eight months before Trump got elected, riding 429 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:48,119 Speaker 1: a wave that looked exactly like what she described. An 430 00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:51,720 Speaker 1: economic geographer, picking up on some of what Kramer had discovered, 431 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:53,960 Speaker 1: wrote what is, to my mind, one of the most 432 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:58,440 Speaker 1: satisfying explanations for Trump's election. It's an essay called the 433 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:01,520 Speaker 1: Rise of Populism and the Revenge of the Places that 434 00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:05,080 Speaker 1: Don't Matter, and it points out that you might expect 435 00:26:05,120 --> 00:26:08,920 Speaker 1: a populism of resentment to come from the disenfranchised, the 436 00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:12,399 Speaker 1: very poor or ethnic and racial minorities, to put it 437 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:17,760 Speaker 1: in his terms, among the people that don't matter. But 438 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:21,920 Speaker 1: that's not what happened. It was the places that don't matter, 439 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:27,080 Speaker 1: even the wealthy people there who voted for populism. And 440 00:26:27,120 --> 00:26:32,320 Speaker 1: that same pattern held all around the world. The forgotten places, 441 00:26:33,120 --> 00:26:34,720 Speaker 1: forgotten no longer. 442 00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:36,640 Speaker 16: The forgotten borough. 443 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:37,399 Speaker 14: I don't know. 444 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:39,320 Speaker 5: I think we just might get rid of that nickname. 445 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:43,920 Speaker 1: A vote for Giuliani in nineteen ninety three is not 446 00:26:44,120 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 1: the same as a vote for Trump in twenty sixteen. 447 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:50,400 Speaker 1: But they share that engine. There is some kind of 448 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:55,520 Speaker 1: deep cosmic tie between these men, these movements, these places, 449 00:26:56,080 --> 00:27:00,960 Speaker 1: in these times. Because twenty nine years after Giuliani riled 450 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:03,960 Speaker 1: up a group of drunk, angry cops at City Hall, 451 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:08,240 Speaker 1: he did the same thing, but this time as someone 452 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:09,080 Speaker 1: in Trump's corner. 453 00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:13,000 Speaker 14: But Gus where right. A lot of them will go 454 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:21,560 Speaker 14: to jail, So let's have trial by combat. 455 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:26,520 Speaker 1: To some who'd been in New York in nineteen ninety two, 456 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:30,440 Speaker 1: what unfolded at the Capitol on January sixth, twenty twenty 457 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:32,480 Speaker 1: one all seemed very familiar. 458 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:40,440 Speaker 16: Absolutely. There was much chatter among the Dinkins alumni of 459 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:42,160 Speaker 16: about three parallel. 460 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:46,920 Speaker 1: We've seen this before, Yeah, Marcia Smith, who worked with 461 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:48,120 Speaker 1: David Dinkins. 462 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:51,520 Speaker 11: It's so parallel. 463 00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:53,600 Speaker 16: You know, you're talking about the first black mayor and 464 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:55,600 Speaker 16: the reaction to that, the first black president and the 465 00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:58,040 Speaker 16: reaction to that though, you know, and it's a real reaction, 466 00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:01,400 Speaker 16: you know, and it's it is emotional, you know, it 467 00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:06,680 Speaker 16: literally is psychological emotional. Who gets to be in this position? 468 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:10,960 Speaker 16: What's fair and what's not? Who gets to wheel power, 469 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:11,560 Speaker 16: who doesn't. 470 00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:16,720 Speaker 1: It's all here in seed form in the nineteen nineties 471 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:20,600 Speaker 1: in New York City. It's the story of the past decade, 472 00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:22,080 Speaker 1: thirty years ago. 473 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:40,720 Speaker 14: So how does it end? 474 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:43,360 Speaker 1: This whole series has been about where we put our 475 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:47,760 Speaker 1: trash literally and metaphorically. So as we reached the end 476 00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:51,280 Speaker 1: of it, my producer Lucy Sullivan and I decided we 477 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:54,200 Speaker 1: had to make a pilgrimage. So I wish it were 478 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:56,280 Speaker 1: a little warmer, but I'm happy that it's going to 479 00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:57,240 Speaker 1: be like sunny up. 480 00:28:57,360 --> 00:28:59,560 Speaker 14: Yeah, Chris, we. 481 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:02,600 Speaker 1: Were going to Fresh Kills, once the biggest landfill in 482 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 1: the world. Now it's on its way to becoming one 483 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:08,880 Speaker 1: of the largest parks in the city. We brought its 484 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:12,200 Speaker 1: biggest fan with us, the anthropologist in residence at the 485 00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:16,440 Speaker 1: New York City Department of Sanitation, Robin Nagel. Of the 486 00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:19,080 Speaker 1: many reasons I love this city, the fact that this 487 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:21,320 Speaker 1: position exists has got to be top five. 488 00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:26,400 Speaker 11: Real treat about you all are my You're like giving 489 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:27,800 Speaker 11: me a gift. 490 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:32,200 Speaker 1: Herea We met with two administrators for the park, Chris 491 00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:35,960 Speaker 1: Ricker and Mark Murphy. We all drove out to one 492 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:38,800 Speaker 1: part of the park called the North Mound. Chris and 493 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:41,360 Speaker 1: Mark are native Staten Islanders and they care a lot 494 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:44,720 Speaker 1: about the transformation of this place. Do you remember what 495 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:46,480 Speaker 1: you thought about it when you were growing up, Like, 496 00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:48,120 Speaker 1: how did you feel about the dump? 497 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:50,800 Speaker 15: Well, we don't call it to dump, we call it 498 00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:54,080 Speaker 15: the landfill, but we have our dump jar downstairs. You 499 00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:56,920 Speaker 15: put a dollar in it when everything somebody says you 500 00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:00,080 Speaker 15: thank you. This was like the dark side of the. 501 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,200 Speaker 14: Moon and your parents. 502 00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:04,200 Speaker 15: My dad would say to me, look, go, you know, 503 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:06,160 Speaker 15: wed garbage out in the gar I clean the garbage out, 504 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:09,080 Speaker 15: take it out to the landfill. And if you say, 505 00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:10,960 Speaker 15: takes that and you'd throw it in the back of 506 00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:11,720 Speaker 15: the station wagon. 507 00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:12,360 Speaker 14: You drive out. 508 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:15,960 Speaker 15: And it was just this fast place with telephone poles 509 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,480 Speaker 15: in the ground, and ropes on them, and you'd tied 510 00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:20,360 Speaker 15: around the stuff in your car and you would drive away. 511 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:23,040 Speaker 15: It would all fly out wow, and you'd close the 512 00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:25,600 Speaker 15: doors and you wouldn't look back because number One, you 513 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:27,680 Speaker 15: wanted to get out of that place, but it was 514 00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:29,320 Speaker 15: like where everything you didn't want went. 515 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:34,960 Speaker 1: It's clear that this is going to be a beautiful park. 516 00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:39,000 Speaker 1: It's not fully open to the public yet. Rolling hills 517 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:41,600 Speaker 1: are dotted with little pipes pumping methane out of the 518 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:45,120 Speaker 1: trash underneath to make it safe for the public. Benches 519 00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:50,040 Speaker 1: and paths, wide open spaces, green grass, but not many trees. 520 00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:53,960 Speaker 1: Turns out you can't plant things with deep roots on garbage. 521 00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:57,080 Speaker 1: I turned to my left on top of the mountain 522 00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:00,120 Speaker 1: of buried trash, and in the clear distance I saw 523 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:04,040 Speaker 1: the buildings of Manhattan gleaming. Some day people are going 524 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:05,840 Speaker 1: to go out of their way to come to this place. 525 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:12,880 Speaker 1: Can you what are we standing on top of right now? 526 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:15,560 Speaker 18: So, as an anthropologist, we're standing on the story of 527 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:18,200 Speaker 18: New York City. If you lived here between nineteen forty 528 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:21,240 Speaker 18: eight and two thousand and one, you're here somewhere, maybe 529 00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:23,960 Speaker 18: not in this exact mount but some piece of you 530 00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:26,200 Speaker 18: even if you just passed through, some piece of you 531 00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:31,560 Speaker 18: is underneath us. And this is an archaeologist dream in 532 00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:35,240 Speaker 18: five hundred years, let's say, like long in the future, 533 00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:41,680 Speaker 18: just the daily lives of normal folks, people who's they 534 00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:46,560 Speaker 18: don't become famous, they don't make headlines, but their material 535 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:48,080 Speaker 18: record is under our feet. 536 00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:53,800 Speaker 1: Osprey circled overhead and then Robin said something that I've 537 00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:55,400 Speaker 1: been thinking about ever since. 538 00:31:56,560 --> 00:32:00,080 Speaker 19: Someday, to my regret, people won't even know that they're 539 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:03,840 Speaker 19: standing on mounts of garbage. It's just this extraordinary green space, 540 00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:07,200 Speaker 19: which I think is its future. Because we don't remember 541 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:09,600 Speaker 19: that Orchard Beach and the seventy ninth Street boat Base 542 00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:12,320 Speaker 19: and all of Lower Manhattan from a Pearl Street to 543 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:15,120 Speaker 19: the water is built on phil We don't remember that 544 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,320 Speaker 19: we walk on our garbage history all the time. 545 00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:28,720 Speaker 1: This whole series, I've been thinking about an unresolved tension 546 00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:31,760 Speaker 1: at the heart of this country. The idea that every 547 00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:34,760 Speaker 1: person is equal and deserves an equal vote is at 548 00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:38,160 Speaker 1: odds with the way our government's actually built. That every 549 00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:42,240 Speaker 1: state is equal and deserves equal representation, regardless of how 550 00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:45,720 Speaker 1: many people live. There are we a country of places 551 00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:49,960 Speaker 1: or of people? This is a question that New York 552 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:53,960 Speaker 1: City resolved in nineteen eighty nine. Remember, shutting down the 553 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:56,840 Speaker 1: Board of Estimate was like killing the electoral College in 554 00:32:56,880 --> 00:33:00,120 Speaker 1: the Senate. In one fell swoop, New York City became 555 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:04,320 Speaker 1: a democracy of people and not of place. But when 556 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:09,520 Speaker 1: they did, they missed a crucial fact. Place does actually matter. 557 00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:14,760 Speaker 1: The politics of resentment are a politics of place and remoteness. 558 00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:18,320 Speaker 1: And if you don't attend to that, people elect a 559 00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:23,600 Speaker 1: strong man who favors them over others. You get Giuliani, 560 00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:28,560 Speaker 1: you get Trump, the revenge of the places that don't matter. 561 00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:32,880 Speaker 1: The reality is we're stuck together, and if we don't 562 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:36,280 Speaker 1: want to keep getting periodically rocked by the forgotten places, 563 00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:40,720 Speaker 1: we're left with one option. Figure out a news story 564 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:44,040 Speaker 1: we can tell that makes this whole place make sense again, 565 00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:56,560 Speaker 1: that remembers all of it and everyone. And so now, 566 00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:59,960 Speaker 1: in closing, let me share with you just one last 567 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:04,480 Speaker 1: excellent staten Isle In fact, one day, decades after Woody 568 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:07,920 Speaker 1: Guthrie died, his daughter Nora got a call. It was 569 00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:10,000 Speaker 1: her father's manager, and he. 570 00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:12,719 Speaker 4: Said, you know, I'm going to retire soon, so I 571 00:34:12,759 --> 00:34:15,160 Speaker 4: need someone to come in and kind of learn this 572 00:34:15,279 --> 00:34:19,600 Speaker 4: stuff of there's stuff here of your father's boxes of stuff. 573 00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:22,399 Speaker 4: So I went in and then I pulled out a 574 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:26,759 Speaker 4: three whole notebook and is filled with lyrics, just like 575 00:34:26,799 --> 00:34:29,759 Speaker 4: one hundred and fifty, page after page after page, just 576 00:34:29,799 --> 00:34:35,319 Speaker 4: turning the page. And then there's this land. And I 577 00:34:35,359 --> 00:34:37,919 Speaker 4: took it out of the book. I said, have you 578 00:34:37,919 --> 00:34:41,279 Speaker 4: ever seen it? And he said no, No one had 579 00:34:41,319 --> 00:34:44,960 Speaker 4: opened these boxes for forty years. 580 00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:50,080 Speaker 1: This Land is Your Land is basically the unofficial national anthem. 581 00:34:50,839 --> 00:34:53,600 Speaker 1: Nora discovered that her dad had written it soon after 582 00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:56,080 Speaker 1: he first arrived in New York in nineteen forty. 583 00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:01,239 Speaker 4: He's basically describing his trip from California to the New 584 00:35:01,279 --> 00:35:01,880 Speaker 4: York Island. 585 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:08,519 Speaker 1: That is the crucial lyric, the very first couplet, this 586 00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:12,359 Speaker 1: Land is your land, this Land is Myland, from California 587 00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:16,840 Speaker 1: to the New York Island. But looking at that page 588 00:35:16,839 --> 00:35:20,879 Speaker 1: of his notebook, Nora realized that's not the line he 589 00:35:20,879 --> 00:35:21,760 Speaker 1: originally wrote. 590 00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:33,600 Speaker 4: The original lyric had from California to Staten Island. Why 591 00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:35,719 Speaker 4: I have no idea. 592 00:35:37,799 --> 00:35:40,680 Speaker 1: The most crucial part of the first draft of probably 593 00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:44,840 Speaker 1: the most famous song in American history goes from California 594 00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:50,119 Speaker 1: to the Staten Island and then he crossed it out 595 00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:54,320 Speaker 1: and wrote another version, the one we all know. Word 596 00:35:54,319 --> 00:35:56,799 Speaker 1: of this got out in the nineteen nineties, around the 597 00:35:56,799 --> 00:35:57,759 Speaker 1: time of secession. 598 00:35:58,799 --> 00:36:02,160 Speaker 4: I did have a group of people come many years 599 00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:07,079 Speaker 4: ago from Staten Island and petitioned me to go back 600 00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:10,680 Speaker 4: to the original lyric. They wanted Staten Island you know, 601 00:36:11,399 --> 00:36:14,519 Speaker 4: Are you serious? I'm serious. They were like, so, why 602 00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:17,359 Speaker 4: did he cross out this Staten Islander? I don't know. 603 00:36:18,799 --> 00:36:22,919 Speaker 4: And do you think we could get it back? I 604 00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:26,640 Speaker 4: don't think so. By that point, it has already been 605 00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:29,479 Speaker 4: published and was widely known. 606 00:36:33,919 --> 00:36:37,680 Speaker 1: Staten Islanders they love a petition and hate being forgotten, 607 00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:41,359 Speaker 1: and honestly, who doesn't. So since the New York State 608 00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:44,399 Speaker 1: Legislature decided they weren't going to let Staten Island go 609 00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:46,799 Speaker 1: its own way, I think it's the least we can 610 00:36:46,839 --> 00:36:51,079 Speaker 1: do to put them back in the song. I asked 611 00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:53,680 Speaker 1: my friend Sam Lewis and Nashville to record it for us. 612 00:36:55,520 --> 00:37:02,080 Speaker 6: This land is your land, This land is miland Film, 613 00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:11,399 Speaker 6: California to the stand Island, from the River Ys to 614 00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:19,000 Speaker 6: the Golf Stream water, this land was made and me 615 00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:26,600 Speaker 6: is I was walking Drivon of Highway. 616 00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:35,279 Speaker 12: I solved me Laddie and Liz Kyoway. I saw below 617 00:37:35,839 --> 00:37:44,200 Speaker 12: me that Golden Valley this Land was made. 618 00:37:46,279 --> 00:37:48,600 Speaker 1: The Staten Island Problem is written and reported by me 619 00:37:48,839 --> 00:37:51,880 Speaker 1: Ben Matt of Haffrey. He was produced by Lucy Sullivan 620 00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:55,759 Speaker 1: with Nina Bird Lawrence. Our editor is Karen Schakerji. Our 621 00:37:55,799 --> 00:37:59,800 Speaker 1: executive producer is Jacob Smith. Fact checking by Sam Russick, 622 00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:03,879 Speaker 1: Sound design and mastering by Jake Gorsky. Original music by 623 00:38:03,879 --> 00:38:08,479 Speaker 1: Stellwagen Sinfinet, Luis Garra and Jake Gorsky. Special thanks to 624 00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:12,040 Speaker 1: Todd Reynolds for his the solution from the album Outer Borrow, 625 00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:17,640 Speaker 1: and thanks of course to Malcolm Gladwell. So many people 626 00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:19,879 Speaker 1: shared their time and expertise with me as I made 627 00:38:19,879 --> 00:38:22,600 Speaker 1: this series. You don't hear all their voices, but it 628 00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:26,120 Speaker 1: wouldn't have been possible without them. Thanks in particular to 629 00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:31,559 Speaker 1: Derek Alvez, Chris Bauer, Chris Beacham, Ed Burke, Jerry Camarada, 630 00:38:31,839 --> 00:38:37,319 Speaker 1: Gretchen Dikstra, Art Eisenberg, Richard Emery, Ray Fasano, Fernando Ferrer, 631 00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:42,680 Speaker 1: Ken gold, Eric Lane, Jill Lapour, Thomas Main, Thomas Matteo, 632 00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:49,200 Speaker 1: Chris McNichol, Marty Melosi, Susan Mulineri, Patrick Nugent, Carol o'claraken, 633 00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:56,680 Speaker 1: Philip Pappis, Jose Ramirez, Garoffalo, David Schleicher, Eric Vitaliano, Joseph Vederetti, 634 00:38:57,200 --> 00:39:01,640 Speaker 1: and Kevin Wade. Several archivists were, as always, the backbone 635 00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:05,160 Speaker 1: of this story. Huge huge thanks to James Kaser and 636 00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:08,560 Speaker 1: Rebecca Lambert at the College of Staten Island Archives, to 637 00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:12,120 Speaker 1: Danny Spardella w n y c Into the whole staff 638 00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:14,839 Speaker 1: of the New York City Department of Records and Information 639 00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:19,360 Speaker 1: Services at Pushkin. Thanks to Staten Island's own Morgan Ratner, 640 00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:23,400 Speaker 1: and to Greta Cone, Jake Flanagan, Eric Sandler, Kira Posey, 641 00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:29,040 Speaker 1: Jordan McMillan, and Grace Ross. And thanks also to Julia 642 00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:31,919 Speaker 1: Conrad for teaching me to love this city and its 643 00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:39,680 Speaker 1: history as much as she does. I'm ben Matafaffrey is 644 00:39:39,879 --> 00:39:40,759 Speaker 1: Land issue. 645 00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:47,879 Speaker 6: This land is maland from Caliphone. 646 00:39:48,839 --> 00:39:49,359 Speaker 11: To this. 647 00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:54,240 Speaker 14: On the river foes. 648 00:39:55,480 --> 00:40:02,200 Speaker 6: Through the ghost stream world, this land mavy. 649 00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:15,719 Speaker 14: I don't do anything A fact