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Speaker 2: Ian Lingoln joins right now with demo capital markets. Ian,
Speaker 2: let's begin with first principles. Do you still maintain that
Speaker 2: out there we will see price up and yield down?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I certainly do. I think that the path for
Speaker 3: ten and thirty years yields from here is certainly lower.
Speaker 3: We've seen four percent hold on a couple of occasions,
Speaker 3: but I think that as quick as or as soon
Speaker 3: as this weekend, we could see a weekly close below
Speaker 3: four percent in tins, which is constructive for the longer term.
Speaker 2: Of course, with Ian Lingoln, I had to set up
Speaker 2: a chart that would make Katie commence blush. Okay, it's
Speaker 2: log ten year yield, which is gorgeous.
Speaker 4: Spector are you ready?
Speaker 2: Two standard deviations down like an Ian Lingodn direction is
Speaker 2: a three point seven seven that's what.
Speaker 4: We're talking about. Can you imagine I can refinance the mortgage? Exactly?
Speaker 4: What does it do to in Lingodn's mortgage.
Speaker 5: Paul, So, I we're sitting here with a ten year
Speaker 5: at about four percent here, What is my Federal Reserve
Speaker 5: going to do here? Assuming they have some data that
Speaker 5: maybe we don't have, how do you think they're going
Speaker 5: to proceed over the next two, three four meetings?
Speaker 3: Well, they do have some data that we might not have.
Speaker 3: They certainly have models that tell them what the trajectory
Speaker 3: of the economy was before the government shut down. I
Speaker 3: think the path of base resistance is twenty five basis
Speaker 3: point cuts in October and December, followed by a pause
Speaker 3: in January, and shifting two quarterly cuts of twenty five
Speaker 3: basis points next year.
Speaker 5: All right, So I mean is that? I mean, how
Speaker 5: do you think the FED is looking at this economy here?
Speaker 5: I mean, the inflation despite the tariffs, seems to be
Speaker 5: in check here? So is do you think their focus
Speaker 5: is really more so on the labor market?
Speaker 3: I think that after the major BLS revisions and this
Speaker 3: summer's payrolls prints, that the Fed's focus clearly shifted towards
Speaker 3: the employment aspect of its dual mandate. As you point out,
Speaker 3: realized inflation hasn't been shockingly high. There has been some
Speaker 3: evidence of tariff passed through, but it hasn't been to
Speaker 3: the point that it's troubling for the FED. And so
Speaker 3: I suspect that what the FED is doing at this
Speaker 3: moment is they're not as worried about the performance of
Speaker 3: the real economy today, but they're normalizing rates in anticipation
Speaker 3: of trouble ahead in twenty twenty six.
Speaker 2: So and you're up at ce far with me today.
Speaker 2: I've been asking people for good. Good questions are smarter
Speaker 2: than mine. What is the question you would ask Christopher
Speaker 2: Wall who is on that short list to be chairman
Speaker 2: of the FED.
Speaker 3: I would be very curious where he sees the combination
Speaker 3: of neutral and the overall participation of the balance sheet
Speaker 3: and SOMA in twenty twenty six, right, because if he
Speaker 3: has a lower gut estimate, let's say two seventy five,
Speaker 3: two fifty, I think that would be a shift from
Speaker 3: the market's thinking. Or if he's at three fifty or
Speaker 3: three twenty five, that's also key information that the market's
Speaker 3: looking for.
Speaker 2: Link that into the balance sheet quantitative tightening, quantitative accommodation,
Speaker 2: link that into the balance sheet debate. This keeps coming
Speaker 2: up Paul, with Michael McKee and Christopher Whalen and now
Speaker 2: at Ian Lingen. I think our audience doesn't know this.
Speaker 2: I certainly don't link the monetary policy rate Ian Lingoln
Speaker 2: into what Christopher Waller and the Fed is doing with
Speaker 2: the balance sheet.
Speaker 3: So currently the Fed is winding down or reducing its
Speaker 3: balance sheet, selling more or allowing mortgages and treasuries to mature,
Speaker 3: and not reinvesting them in their entirety. What the messaging
Speaker 3: from Powell was yesterday was that that will probably end
Speaker 3: in the next few months. So that means we'll reach
Speaker 3: a stable balance sheet, which should be good for risk assets,
Speaker 3: it should be good for the real economy. It will
Speaker 3: also be good for best funding needs. As he contemplates
Speaker 3: how he's going to fund the deficit.
Speaker 2: Is he going to fund you think it? Is he
Speaker 2: going to fund it with short term paper? Or is
Speaker 2: he going to start Can you see it now? US
Speaker 2: fifty year bonds swening will line up at.
Speaker 4: The shore for that. How are we going to fund
Speaker 4: this deficit?
Speaker 3: I think for the foreseeable future it's going to be
Speaker 3: funded in the bill market. There's plenty of capacity, there's
Speaker 3: plenty of demand, in the very short end of the curve,
Speaker 3: and once we get to the second half of next year, presumably,
Speaker 3: if my forecasts are right, will be in a lower
Speaker 3: rate environment for tens and thirties, and it's at that
Speaker 3: point that VESNT might consider increasing borrowing further out the curve.
Speaker 5: Ian long ago, Lisa Bromwitz told me, I need to
Speaker 5: focus on the two ten spread.
Speaker 4: I got the two year, I don't know three fifty.
Speaker 5: I got the ten year like four percent, So that's
Speaker 5: fifty basis points of steepening there.
Speaker 4: How do I interpret that? Is that a good thing?
Speaker 3: Well, it's upward sloping, which is good for the economy.
Speaker 3: It's good for the system as a whole. So it
Speaker 3: has normalized. It's not as steep as many ourselves included,
Speaker 3: would have expected at this point in the cycle. The
Speaker 3: Fed has already told us they're going back to neutral,
Speaker 3: which is three percent. I would have expected that we
Speaker 3: would have seen either two year yields closer to three
Speaker 3: twenty five as opposed to three fifty, or a bit
Speaker 3: more bearishness further out the curve, as there does seem
Speaker 3: to be some positive momentum lingering in the real economy, and.
Speaker 2: Thank you for the brief, really really appreciate it. I'm
Speaker 2: going to mention you today with Christopher at Waller there
Speaker 2: that's smart observation on possibly a static balance sheet at
Speaker 2: the FAD.
Speaker 4: Stay with us.
Speaker 2: More from Bloomberg Surveillance coming up after this.
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Speaker 2: Right now, too quick a visit with Daniel Tannebaum with
Speaker 2: Oliver Wyman. Dan, I just want to go to the
Speaker 2: first line of your note, which is just simply the
Speaker 2: imf IF meetings is just when are we going to
Speaker 2: be adults about containing Russia?
Speaker 6: Give us an update? No, that's right, Tom. There's at
Speaker 6: least discussions in the private forum of concern around when
Speaker 6: will the US finally take action. We've seen a lot
Speaker 6: of words, We've seen the President express disappointment. We know
Speaker 6: there's pending Senate legislation that would significantly increasealies on Russia,
Speaker 6: but we just haven't used any of them, and so
Speaker 6: it is leaving our allies. And I was in Brussels
Speaker 6: two weeks ago, feeling like they're left holding the bag
Speaker 6: without US support.
Speaker 5: And Dan, I just again reading your note, it just
Speaker 5: kind of jumped out of me. There have been zero
Speaker 5: new sanctions levied by President Trump since returning to office.
Speaker 5: That kind of surprised me, given what's taken place in Ukraine.
Speaker 5: What's the feeling in DC here?
Speaker 6: I think the feeling is a question of why, what
Speaker 6: is the hold up the discussions?
Speaker 4: Previously?
Speaker 6: The President said this that sanctions will somehow impede the
Speaker 6: negotiations with Russia. I mean, Russia has only increased the
Speaker 6: aggression since the Alaska Summit, which feels like an eternity ago,
Speaker 6: and with no tangible actions against Russia. The focus has
Speaker 6: been on pressuring allies to Ukraine more so than actually
Speaker 6: pressuring Ukraine, pressuring Russia, I mean, to to stop this war.
Speaker 6: So it is a real question mark as to what
Speaker 6: will it take to see actual action.
Speaker 5: Is there some feeling within Congress that Congress can just
Speaker 5: without the President, go on alone a little bit and
Speaker 5: impose some sanctions or do they need a full support
Speaker 5: of the President.
Speaker 6: They absolutely can, and they've done it before in twenty seventeen,
Speaker 6: which was definitely an eternity ago Congress imposed sanctions without
Speaker 6: the president's go ahead. It actually was to ensure that
Speaker 6: the President didn't lift existing sanctions on Russia. They will
Speaker 6: not act without them. Boone will not put this bill
Speaker 6: on the floor.
Speaker 2: Good Dan, Let me ask the elephant in the room question.
Speaker 4: I mean, what is, with all of your.
Speaker 2: Experience, including with a fuller reserve in New York, Dan Tanebam,
Speaker 2: how close is President Trump to mister Putin?
Speaker 6: I mean, that is the million dollar question. We don't
Speaker 6: really know. He's clearly shown a view towards the more
Speaker 6: autocratic leaders is a model that he aspires towards. Now
Speaker 6: he's certainly said repeatedly in recent weeks of the continued disappointment,
Speaker 6: particularly with drone and military intervention in NATO territory.
Speaker 4: But that is the question.
Speaker 6: He has not said anything positive about Vladimir Putin recently,
Speaker 6: so I guess that's a win. But it's hard to
Speaker 6: understand the calculus here.
Speaker 2: I mean, you're one of the few people I know
Speaker 2: it's going to actually answer intelligently. So it's a victory
Speaker 2: in Israel Gaza. Can the president translate that over to
Speaker 2: a quote unquote victory in Ukraine. I think he can.
Speaker 6: I mean, let's give the president credit on the Gaza deal.
Speaker 6: It's something that few others could have really done to
Speaker 6: bring both Hamas and Israel to the table to come
Speaker 6: to a deal. I think if the President put his
Speaker 6: energy into it, used the mouthpiece that he has joined
Speaker 6: back with the G seven allies that are trying to
Speaker 6: curb and get Russia out of Ukraine, I think it
Speaker 6: would make a difference. I think it would be something
Speaker 6: that gets him towards that famous Nobel prize that he
Speaker 6: seems so excited about. But he hasn't done it yet,
Speaker 6: and that is the question is what will it take
Speaker 6: to get him off the sidelines?
Speaker 2: Tanab, I'm shortlisted for the nobil.
Speaker 4: Sure, absolutely, Dan.
Speaker 5: In reality, there is everybody just waiting for the President
Speaker 5: to decide which way to go, because there are some
Speaker 5: serious sanctions in terms of frozen Russian assets that could
Speaker 5: be levied here that could have significant impacts on Russia.
Speaker 4: But is it at the discretion of the president here well, so.
Speaker 6: That's the one area where the President probably has less influence.
Speaker 6: The bulk of the immobilized Russian sovereign assets are actually
Speaker 6: in Europe, and there's been discussions for months, well for years,
Speaker 6: but really recently they've escalated within Brussels in the European
Speaker 6: Commission around what to do with these immobilized assets. Do
Speaker 6: we seize them? Do we generate alone off them? Which
Speaker 6: is already a plan leveraging the interest gain from the
Speaker 6: matured securities that were held with some institutions in Europe.
Speaker 6: But the president here, if he said he was supportive,
Speaker 6: I think it will help the cause. But this is
Speaker 6: really an issue that Europe needs to solve predominantly.
Speaker 2: Dan, thank you so much. In Washington. D tan Obaum
Speaker 2: with Oliver Whyman, stay with us. More from Bloomberg Surveillance
Speaker 2: coming up after this.
Speaker 1: This is the Bloomberg Surveillance Podcast. Listen live each weekday
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Speaker 4: David Balen. He's the CEO of CIO Capitol Group.
Speaker 5: David it is formerly Chief Investment Officer in Global Head
Speaker 5: of Investments at City Global Wealth. So he's been around
Speaker 5: the block once or twice. Hey, David, A lot.
Speaker 4: Of cross currents out there.
Speaker 5: We like to focus on the fundamentals like interest rates
Speaker 5: and earnings, but boy, there's geopolitical issues out there. There's
Speaker 5: just domestic political issues as it relates to tariffs and
Speaker 5: so on and so forth. When you talk to your clients,
Speaker 5: what's the message you try to get across.
Speaker 7: Right now, we're looking at next year's earnings being of
Speaker 7: about ten percent, We're looking at industrates coming down a
Speaker 7: little bit, and we're looking at an extraordinarily resilient economy
Speaker 7: that's pretty much ignored some of the major news, both
Speaker 7: a shutdown and also the tariff negotiations with China. But
Speaker 7: what we're seeing in client portfolio is a little bit
Speaker 7: more troubling, which is a great concentration in areas like technology.
Speaker 7: You know, managed portfolios have large exposures, but then clients
Speaker 7: have added on more to that, and they've avoided shares,
Speaker 7: you know, offshore shares, which I think will do well
Speaker 7: next year. They've avoided healthcare shares, which will do well
Speaker 7: next year as well. And so really we want to
Speaker 7: see people reorient their portfolios a little bit away from
Speaker 7: tech simply because of the concentration risks that they have,
Speaker 7: even though we expect earnings to go up in the
Speaker 7: technology sector. So it's a complacency that we're really most
Speaker 7: concerned about, to be honest with you.
Speaker 8: Okay, So when it comes to portfolio construction, how big
Speaker 8: of a moat do I have to have around my castle?
Speaker 7: Well, it's funny, you know, the sixty forty portfolio isn't
Speaker 7: going to work so well. But I think that clients
Speaker 7: don't have enough bonds and high quality bonds in their portfolio.
Speaker 7: They typically don't have gold, They probably have virtually no
Speaker 7: or zero exposure to big coin reating digital currency, and
Speaker 7: as already mentioned, they don't have much exposure to China
Speaker 7: tech or even to offshore equities. So there are lots
Speaker 7: of places where you want clients to reorient their portfolios.
Speaker 7: And we're talking about a reorientation that could be twelve
Speaker 7: to fourteen percent of their assets. So it's not a
Speaker 7: small change that we're recommending for twenty twenty six.
Speaker 5: So in your outlook there, David, what role does do
Speaker 5: alternatives play? And you know, I think falterners for most
Speaker 5: most of us are private equity, private credit, maybe hedge
Speaker 5: funds think things like that. How do you think about alternatives?
Speaker 7: Yeah, I think there are certain areas in the alternative
Speaker 7: market this coming year that are going to be better
Speaker 7: for vintages, like, for example, with a number of you know,
Speaker 7: lack of exits of private equity companies, and with valuations
Speaker 7: of mid cap stocks you know, about three turns less
Speaker 7: than large caps. I think private equity, especially middle market private.
Speaker 4: Equity, is good.
Speaker 7: But the area that we like best is one that's
Speaker 7: actually harder to invest in, which is early stage venture capital.
Speaker 7: You know, companies that are in series A, you know,
Speaker 7: even startup equity. And the reason that we like them
Speaker 7: is that they give you really large returns, but they
Speaker 7: also give you a second and third opportunity to invest
Speaker 7: as the more successful companies come out of those portfolios
Speaker 7: and funds. So we're emphasizing that our you know, ultra
Speaker 7: high net worth clients lean into that asset class. In
Speaker 7: twenty twenty six, are.
Speaker 8: Most investors on the same page, whether it be retail,
Speaker 8: a high net worth or institutional.
Speaker 7: You know, it's interesting the retail investors are actually more active.
Speaker 7: We're seeing you know, family offices and ultra high net
Speaker 7: worth clients really focused on what they did in the past,
Speaker 7: and that's one of the dangers of FORTFOLI management is
Speaker 7: if they don't look forward and actually change their strategy,
Speaker 7: they actually are taking on increased risk. When markets have
Speaker 7: done as well as they have for the last four
Speaker 7: or five years, all of these concentration risks build up,
Speaker 7: and that's what we're seeing. You know, even as families
Speaker 7: have become wealthier, even as family officer have done better,
Speaker 7: the fact is that their portfolios have become far riskier,
Speaker 7: and that I think is underappreciated.
Speaker 5: So fixed income here, it feels like fixed income kind
Speaker 5: of getting squeezed out over the last several years with
Speaker 5: a strong performance of the equity market. But you know,
Speaker 5: how do you think about fixed income allocations? How much
Speaker 5: credit risk do you want to take on fixed income side?
Speaker 7: Right, So you're hitting upon it a critical point. One
Speaker 7: of the things that's be't squeezed out is fixed income.
Speaker 7: And with rates where they are right now, both in
Speaker 7: the traditional markets and the high yield markets, there really
Speaker 7: are opportunities for people to capture and hold on to
Speaker 7: very good fixed income rates that are highly likely to
Speaker 7: come down next year. And you're right, people are very
Speaker 7: under allocated to that as well. Again as equities have
Speaker 7: done well, So we want to see clients take on
Speaker 7: a full slug of that, right, even including municipals in
Speaker 7: the United States, And that's why we have such a
Speaker 7: large orientation to reorienting portfolios. And we also want clients
Speaker 7: to think about their cash balances. The typical client today
Speaker 7: has more than eight percent of their money in cash,
Speaker 7: earning less than three percent when they could be earning
Speaker 7: four and a half percent right if they actively manage it.
Speaker 7: And they have two higher cash balances and they're earning
Speaker 7: too little on them. So there's a lot for clients
Speaker 7: to do in twenty twenty six and getting ready for
Speaker 7: next year.
Speaker 8: David, here's the softball for you. Don't turn it into
Speaker 8: a commercial. But what happens at the intersection of AI
Speaker 8: and wealth management.
Speaker 7: A lot is going to happen at the intersection. First
Speaker 7: of all, in terms of benefits to clients. We're going
Speaker 7: to see clients develop hyper efficient portfolios. Right, they need
Speaker 7: to spend less for their fund management, for even their
Speaker 7: wealth management and advice, and they're going to be able
Speaker 7: to do that by looking at their entire portfolios using
Speaker 7: data aggregation, taking a look at where they're just getting
Speaker 7: index exposure, like the S and P or the NASDAC,
Speaker 7: bringing that down to the lowest possible cost, and then
Speaker 7: doing the reallocations we just talked about right in a
Speaker 7: very methodical way. What AI doesn't do well is anticipate
Speaker 7: some of the market conditions that we actually have right now.
Speaker 7: That's where you need people to do that job, the
Speaker 7: CIO part. But in terms of making portfolios efficient, it
Speaker 7: is just remarkable right that the state of the wealth
Speaker 7: management industry right now is that the typical retail client
Speaker 7: will will spend one point one to one point five
Speaker 7: percent to get asset management services and fun including their
Speaker 7: fund costs.
Speaker 2: And that's ridiculous.
Speaker 7: It won't it won't be that high in two years.
Speaker 4: David, Thanks for joining us. Always appreciate getting the benefits
Speaker 4: of your wisdom. David Balen, CEO of CIO Capital Group.
Speaker 5: I note that Stephen Whiting, formerly of City, recently enjoying it.
Speaker 5: David Balen, stay with us. More from Bloomberg Surveillance. Coming
Speaker 5: up after this.
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Speaker 5: We actually have a guest who really is an expert
Speaker 5: on this whole energy stuff, Regina Mayor, a global head
Speaker 5: of clients and Markets at kp MG.
Speaker 4: Regina.
Speaker 5: You know, I note that WTI crude oil has got
Speaker 5: a fifty eight handle. I mean, I think the folks
Speaker 5: down in your neck of the woods, they're not real
Speaker 5: happy with that. Talk to us about kind of where
Speaker 5: oil is now and what does that mean for the
Speaker 5: economics of the energy business.
Speaker 9: Yeah, So it's really interesting because we've got dueling forecasts
Speaker 9: going on and an attempt to seize the narrative. So
Speaker 9: opek is saying supply demand roughly in equilibrium, IEA predicting
Speaker 9: a big supply gut. The industry titans trying to say
Speaker 9: it's short term, it'll work itself out in the medium
Speaker 9: and long term. My own view is I think we're
Speaker 9: near the floor. Why do I think that? Cushe is
Speaker 9: out a six year low for inventory so US space.
Speaker 9: I do think for shale we're going to see flat
Speaker 9: to low production in twenty twenty six. We're starting to
Speaker 9: see more speculative plays. We're moving into more marginal territory.
Speaker 9: I think that'll put some of the supply off and
Speaker 9: we might be even approaching acentangle market where we start
Speaker 9: to see some uneconomic behavior. We're already seeing floating storage
Speaker 9: doubled twenty million barrels to forty million barrels. You're on,
Speaker 9: colleague covey Er bloss Broad actually a really interesting piece
Speaker 9: about that. So we think it's the floor. So we
Speaker 9: don't necessarily like WTI at fifty eight. I think it
Speaker 9: should be comfortably in the mid sixties, and we'll still
Speaker 9: see really strong growth from energy companies in twenty twenty six.
Speaker 8: All right, backwardation in contango. One of these days, somebody's
Speaker 8: going to give me a clear, clear explanation of that. Hey,
Speaker 8: One of the regional issues we're facing here Regina is
Speaker 8: a debate, a really intense debate over a proposed pipeline
Speaker 8: that would from Pennsylvania through New Jersey through the Raritan
Speaker 8: Bay under the water and to Queen's you know, the
Speaker 8: governor here for it, the congressional delegation against it. Can
Speaker 8: you talk to us about where we are in the
Speaker 8: debate between oil, gas, and renewables.
Speaker 9: So right now we have an environment that is probably
Speaker 9: more friendly toward oil and gas. I shared the story
Speaker 9: with Tom and Paul earlier this year at an Astros game.
Speaker 9: I know he's a Red Sox fan, but for the
Speaker 9: first time in a long time, I'm seeing oil companies advertise,
Speaker 9: you know, baseball brought to you by oil and gas.
Speaker 9: You would not have seen that two years ago, so
Speaker 9: I think that the industry is trying to take advantage
Speaker 9: of that. I actually think your part of the country
Speaker 9: would really benefit from more access to natural gas. In
Speaker 9: the New England, New York, New Jersey area, you know,
Speaker 9: you have propane deliveries. It still go house to house
Speaker 9: with heating oil, and if we had natural gas lines in.
Speaker 9: We have a ubiquitousness of natural gas, particularly from Appalachia
Speaker 9: really close by, relatively inexpensive. So I think we're trying
Speaker 9: to do more of that.
Speaker 3: Offshore wind.
Speaker 9: I think it's being really under an onslaught in this
Speaker 9: current administration, but we'll still see a lot of renewables
Speaker 9: investment with solar and onshore wind and other investments. We're
Speaker 9: still seeing investments in hydrogen for example, carbon capture, etc.
Speaker 9: So it might be more stealthy those non oil and
Speaker 9: gas moves, and I think that we're trying to capture
Speaker 9: more of that space. The other thing I would say
Speaker 9: is the ITEA did say thirty percent of the world's
Speaker 9: energy will still have to come from oil and gas
Speaker 9: in terms of the growth that's coming between now and
Speaker 9: twenty fifty. So we see insatiable energy demand and we
Speaker 9: got to use oil and gas for filling a good
Speaker 9: chunk of that increase.
Speaker 5: When you talk to your clients, Regina, I mean, how
Speaker 5: did they think about Again, you just brought up this
Speaker 5: forecast we see for heightened demand for energy going forward,
Speaker 5: whether it's AI or for other sources. I know, it
Speaker 5: seems to me like we're going to need everything, whether
Speaker 5: it's you know, a fossil fuels, renewables, maybe even increased
Speaker 5: use of nuclear.
Speaker 4: I mean, how do your clients think about that.
Speaker 9: It's definitely in all of the above strategy, Paul. But
Speaker 9: we're making investments. They're looking at what's economic and then
Speaker 9: what might the future look like that I can still
Speaker 9: consider that might scale and ultimately become economic. In the meantime,
Speaker 9: you're seeing more exploration and production in other parts of
Speaker 9: the world for core oil and gas assets while they're
Speaker 9: still exploring, you know, lithium deposits hydrogen as a fuel
Speaker 9: cell alternative. How do we drive more electrical generation and
Speaker 9: improve the strength of the grid. So they are looking
Speaker 9: at all of the alternatives and figuring out which ones
Speaker 9: are going to be the most economic because they have
Speaker 9: shareholders that they have to respond to.
Speaker 8: Hey, real quick, do you think a reckoning has come
Speaker 8: out for these AI data centers that they want to
Speaker 8: build out? If they're competing you against me and Hall
Speaker 8: for energy usage as we see our bills climb high.
Speaker 3: And hire, it's a really good question, you know.
Speaker 9: I think we do see an insatiable demand for electricity.
Speaker 9: The tech folks that I talk to, they talk about.
Speaker 3: Moore's law a lot.
Speaker 9: So what we see and know the hockey stick of
Speaker 9: energy consumption, there is a lot of work going on
Speaker 9: to try to make these data centers not so energy intensive.
Speaker 9: I'm a believer in technology continuing to drive those curves down,
Speaker 9: and I don't think it'll be exponential growth. I think
Speaker 9: they'll figure out a way to moderate it.
Speaker 5: Gena great stuff is always We really appreciate you taking
Speaker 5: a few minutes to chat with us. Regina Mayor, Global
Speaker 5: Head of Clients and Markets at kp Energ.
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