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Speaker 1: Hi everyone, it's Sophia and welcome back to work in progress.

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Speaker 1: Here's a question for you. Is it possible to be

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Speaker 1: an emotional badass? If you're not sure, I have an

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Speaker 1: answer for you in the form of today's guest. As

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Speaker 1: Stare Perel is a best selling author and psychotherapist who

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Speaker 1: is widely renowned for her insights on modern relationships. She's

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Speaker 1: a multiple time TED talk host and author who speaks

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Speaker 1: to the emotional needs of modern people and the intricacies

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Speaker 1: and expectations of romantic relationships. Aside from her work in

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Speaker 1: the field of psychology, which landed her on Oprah's Super

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Speaker 1: Soul list of one hundred visionaries, Astaire is just a

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Speaker 1: super fascinating person. She's a book writer, She's fluent in

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Speaker 1: nine different languages, she runs her own therapy practice, she

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Speaker 1: produces and hosts to podcasts, and most recently, she's added

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Speaker 1: game designer as the newest of many many feathers in

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Speaker 1: her cap and I can say from personal experience, she

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Speaker 1: is one of the most fascinating people I have ever

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Speaker 1: sat down to dinner with. I'm so looking forward to

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Speaker 1: learning about her perspective on relationships and talking self actualization

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Speaker 1: and bringing you all into the fold to get to

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Speaker 1: know es dare better. There's a lot of ground to cover,

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Speaker 1: so let's get started. Well, I'm excited to jump in

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Speaker 1: with you today, um and and bring our listeners into

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Speaker 1: your world and to talk about you know, your practice,

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Speaker 1: your books, the podcast, the game. I mean, you have

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Speaker 1: so much going on. But before we get into what's

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Speaker 1: happening now, and I think so many of the things

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Speaker 1: that you have to illuminate for us, I'd like to

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Speaker 1: kind of go back because I wonder when these things

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Speaker 1: began to illuminate for you. I I wonder who was Astaire,

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Speaker 1: this woman who we all know as a leader on

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Speaker 1: mental health and relationships and you know who gives phenomenal

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Speaker 1: ted talks. Who who was this woman when she was

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Speaker 1: a young girl. It's interesting you asked me this question

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Speaker 1: now because I actually just went on vacation and one

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Speaker 1: of my friends who joined me knows me since m

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Speaker 1: H six and people always ask her how is she

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Speaker 1: in school when you you know, when you knew her

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Speaker 1: as a kid, Like, is there a straight line? You know?

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Speaker 1: Is there a continuity? Um? And the answer is yes,

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Speaker 1: you know in many ways people will you know? She answered?

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Speaker 1: She says, back then, she spoke her mind. Back then,

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Speaker 1: she didn't just say what other people say, and she

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Speaker 1: she always kind of stood out with some different idea.

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Speaker 1: And it's very interesting for me to listen and see

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Speaker 1: her and others um make this kind of comments when

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Speaker 1: I say others we had a reunion after forty two

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Speaker 1: years of of my class, and and I basically said,

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Speaker 1: how did you see me? How was I at that?

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm often asked exactly the question you're asking.

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Speaker 1: You all knew me then. I was a leader, I

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Speaker 1: was controversial, I had my defenders and my and and

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Speaker 1: the people who didn't necessarily, you know, particularly connect with

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Speaker 1: me or like me. Um. And I was always interested

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Speaker 1: in people and in relationships and in the human suffering

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Speaker 1: and in the human spirit that helps it survived the

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Speaker 1: suffering and real life. So I think there is actually

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Speaker 1: real consistency and continuity in personality, style and in interests.

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Speaker 1: I love that. It's funny some of the ways you

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Speaker 1: describe yourself as a kid. I have that reaction in

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Speaker 1: in me where my insights are going me too, me too.

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Speaker 1: I felt so much of so much of that, you know,

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Speaker 1: curiosity and and a and a desire to understand the

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Speaker 1: things that often I think people want to hide, you know,

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Speaker 1: the vulnerability and and the tension. I always was wondering, like,

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Speaker 1: where where does that come from? What causes that? And

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Speaker 1: I I wonder for you, you know, I think we

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Speaker 1: can all drop parallels to well, my family did this

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Speaker 1: or I experienced that, But I wonder for you. You know,

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Speaker 1: I've read that both of your parents were Holocaust survivors,

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Speaker 1: and growing up in the beginnings of you know, the

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Speaker 1: Cold War in Western Europe. I wonder if those very

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Speaker 1: raw human experiences and tensions and and perspectives perhaps made

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Speaker 1: you want to understand, you know, those those are quite

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Speaker 1: complex moments in human history too. To be in taking

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Speaker 1: as a child, I think every every I can tell

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Speaker 1: you about me, but I don't. But it's not unique.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think there are many other people who

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Speaker 1: may ask, how did we get to this country? Why

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Speaker 1: am I born here to pure accident? What is this

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Speaker 1: number on your arm? How come I have no grandparents,

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Speaker 1: no uncles, no aunts, no cousins. Why don't we have

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Speaker 1: any family? Why do you have no such an accent?

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Speaker 1: Why did you never go to school? So I think

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Speaker 1: many children who come from different circumstances in life, where wars,

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Speaker 1: refugee experiences, decimation of communities are part of their DNA.

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Speaker 1: It's not just their background, it's really part of the

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Speaker 1: way that they absorb the world. So those questions were

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Speaker 1: present for me from very early on, and it wasn't

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Speaker 1: just my family, it was my whole community. That's kind

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Speaker 1: of all I knew is people who have gone through

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Speaker 1: these kinds of experiences. So you very quickly get a

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Speaker 1: sense that bad things happen in the world. You don't have.

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Speaker 1: There's a certain naivity as a child you don't have.

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Speaker 1: You have nightmares, you have fears, you have a sense

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Speaker 1: that everything could change overnight, you know. And I think

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Speaker 1: that I'm part of the people who have lived with that,

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Speaker 1: which is a way of saying that I'm part of

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Speaker 1: the people that have experienced early trauma, even if mine

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Speaker 1: was vicarious in some way, I'm the child off but

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Speaker 1: it came with osmosis rather than you know, I was

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Speaker 1: not myself in a concentration camp, but everything was absorbed

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Speaker 1: in that way. So inter generational transmission of trauma, direct

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Speaker 1: exposure to traumatic events create a certain experience of reality

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Speaker 1: of the world we live in of the safety or

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Speaker 1: the lack thereof that I think many of us have

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Speaker 1: in common. And I imagine that analyzing that experience in

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Speaker 1: your own family's history makes witnessing you know, what's presently

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Speaker 1: happening in the world. I feel very real. I feel

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Speaker 1: very personal. You know. I think it's hard for any

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Speaker 1: of us whose families have versions of these stories to

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Speaker 1: look at people experiencing it now and think, well, that's

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Speaker 1: happening somewhere else. I would say it in a even

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Speaker 1: more provocative way. You know, when you're a kid and

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Speaker 1: you've seen terrible things happen to your people, you say,

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Speaker 1: how is it that the world allowed for this to happen?

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Speaker 1: How could they continue to go to parties and to

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Speaker 1: gatherings and dinners while all of this suffering and horror

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Speaker 1: was taking place, And you realize that that's exactly what

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Speaker 1: you do too. You may worry, you may read about Afghanistan,

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Speaker 1: you may read about the earthquake in Haiti, but basically,

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Speaker 1: your life goes on. You may get involved, you may

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Speaker 1: send things, you may you may call on your politicians,

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Speaker 1: but fundamentally, your life goes on, and to be on

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Speaker 1: the receiving side of that and that's not the first

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Speaker 1: time you really get a sense that this is how

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Speaker 1: it goes. You know, one place can fall apart, where

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Speaker 1: another place is continued to live as if nothing was happening,

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Speaker 1: or they kind of know something's happening, but that's it.

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Speaker 1: Whereas when I was a kid, I couldn't imagine that

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Speaker 1: people could have sat idle while you know, people were

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Speaker 1: being gassed, and you know people are sitting not idle,

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Speaker 1: but people are witnessing from Afar, while people are jumping

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Speaker 1: on a plane to try to you know, what were

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Speaker 1: they thinking. It's like, you know that the plane would

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Speaker 1: stop and take them inside, or because they're not going

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Speaker 1: to fly on the wing. I mean, it is beyond

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Speaker 1: There are no words to express these things. It's really

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Speaker 1: so I think I can just barely begin to address

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Speaker 1: what what that juxtaposition holds. Something that helped me make

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Speaker 1: sense of that was actually a poem and I've I've

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Speaker 1: talked about it on the show before. There's a writer,

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Speaker 1: Jack Gilbert, and he wrote this poem called a Brief

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Speaker 1: for the Defense, which essentially posits that there is suffering

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Speaker 1: happening everywhere and joy and that sometimes the suffering ones

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Speaker 1: are the ones who are also laughing, and that we

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Speaker 1: couldn't make it as people if we didn't hold on

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Speaker 1: to our joy, That it is the one thing that

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Speaker 1: we can't live without. And it it reminds me that

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Speaker 1: we have to stand up for other people, but we

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Speaker 1: also have to make sure that when we have it good,

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Speaker 1: we take it and we're grateful for it, because otherwise

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Speaker 1: you kind of dishonor the people who have lost that opportunity.

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Speaker 1: And so I don't know, I think like eating because

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Speaker 1: other people are hungry, m hmm, isn't going to make

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Speaker 1: them eat more? Right? It isn't. It isn't actually helping.

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Speaker 1: How How can you put your own oxygen mask on

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Speaker 1: first and then put the oxygen mask on the person

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Speaker 1: next to you? And I I think there's a you know,

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Speaker 1: learning that has to be done there and an experience

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Speaker 1: that has to happen, and you know, faith we have

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Speaker 1: to lean into. And and I wonder, you know, when

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Speaker 1: we when we bring it back from this sort of

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Speaker 1: large experience of so many people who have experienced generational

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Speaker 1: trauma or or been through something lived as refugees, been

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Speaker 1: through something like your family went through, where in your

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Speaker 1: perception and intelligence and knowledge about psychotherapy and all of this.

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Speaker 1: Where where does faith come in? Was that a part

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Speaker 1: of your family tradition or was practicing Judaism not not

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Speaker 1: something that you leaned into. That is such an interesting question.

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Speaker 1: My parents came from very religious backgroundst religious backgrounds for

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Speaker 1: that matter, and after the war they went basically to

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Speaker 1: live in a little town where there were no other Jews.

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Speaker 1: That's long before I was born. And my father explained

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Speaker 1: to me that he wanted to get away from it

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Speaker 1: all and he was kind of angry with God that

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Speaker 1: he had lost his entire family, hundreds of them. That

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Speaker 1: he was the sole survivor of his entire clan, so

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Speaker 1: was my mother and uh and so faith, you know,

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Speaker 1: faith had really helped him while he was in the

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Speaker 1: concentration camps, and he prayed, and he did the holidays,

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Speaker 1: and he even fasted on young people inside the camp

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Speaker 1: where you know, five years of fasting altogether. But when

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Speaker 1: he came out and he had a choice, he had

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Speaker 1: a few years, a good few years where he just

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Speaker 1: um there was a crisis for him. And so it

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Speaker 1: changed as he got older. And that was its relationship

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Speaker 1: to God, but not the relationship to the Jewish tradition

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Speaker 1: and to the practices those stayed. My parents did them

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Speaker 1: throughout their entire life, and they imparted it on us.

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Speaker 1: And the notion was you should know who you are,

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Speaker 1: where you come from, and where you go. And it

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Speaker 1: is when you are really anchored into a specific identity

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Speaker 1: that it will open up for you the possibility of

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Speaker 1: relating to everybody else. That it is not what also's you,

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Speaker 1: it's what actually allows you. If you know your name,

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Speaker 1: you're gonna ask other people's names. That's beautiful. Did did

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Speaker 1: you just look up to your parents immensely when you

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Speaker 1: were a kid? I definitely always ask myself would I

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Speaker 1: Like I think there is not a child of parents

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Speaker 1: who have gone through such situations that doesn't ask what

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Speaker 1: would I have done? Would I have been able to

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Speaker 1: survive this? How would I have done this? I mean

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Speaker 1: in that sense, yes, they were um they were heroes

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Speaker 1: and they also were storytellers. And the way that they

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Speaker 1: told about their lives before the war, during the war

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Speaker 1: and when they came and my refugees in Belgium, they

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Speaker 1: told it from a heroic standpoint rather than from the

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Speaker 1: victimization stand But it was stories of how they braved

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Speaker 1: how they managed, how they connived, how they beat them,

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Speaker 1: how they survived, how they stole potatoes on a farm.

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Speaker 1: You know, it was it was heroic story. So it

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Speaker 1: as easy as a child. It's easier to listen to

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Speaker 1: heroic stories than stories of victimization. And because they were

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Speaker 1: good storytellers, and people used to love to come and

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Speaker 1: listen to them. These people, you know, they were they

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Speaker 1: stood out. They were the only Jews in the neighborhood

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Speaker 1: with one of the family, and they had that they

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Speaker 1: stood out like the shop of the foreign family, you know,

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Speaker 1: the one with the accents, and so people would often

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Speaker 1: come to the store and stay and listen to them

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Speaker 1: talk for hours. You know, they were different. That's what

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Speaker 1: I mean by this stood out. They were different. I

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Speaker 1: knew I was different, and I was never embarrassed. Actually

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Speaker 1: were very rarely. I was usually on the side of

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Speaker 1: they are unique. M h. I love that. And I

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Speaker 1: think about the way that you make space and create

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Speaker 1: containers for other people's stories and so to learn, even

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Speaker 1: as your friend, to learn, and in this moment that

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Speaker 1: you grew up in a very unique container of stories,

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Speaker 1: do you think that that connection, your childhood connection to

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Speaker 1: stories and and the tendency of kids to also love games,

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Speaker 1: and we're going to get into a game later. Do

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Speaker 1: you think that that really shaped you in your in

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Speaker 1: your formative years. Did that begin to make you want

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Speaker 1: to study psychology, to to look at therapy as as

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Speaker 1: a career so interesting? So I think that there were

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Speaker 1: a few connecting dots. First. It's like it was clear

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Speaker 1: my parents had a story kind of it is awesome,

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Speaker 1: you know story, and they also were very curious about

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Speaker 1: other people's stories. So I learned that I learned to

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Speaker 1: not be afraid to ask questions, to be curious about people,

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Speaker 1: to ask them, really, who are you, where you come from? What?

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Speaker 1: What have you gone through? You know, where did you

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Speaker 1: learn that you know of this? Then I would see

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Speaker 1: what began to make me interested in psychology was not

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Speaker 1: just the stories. It was also relationships between people and

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Speaker 1: what can be shared and what is not shared, Like,

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Speaker 1: for example, because my parents were so into the heroic

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Speaker 1: side and so much into the we you know, we

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Speaker 1: we we appreciate life so much because we are here,

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Speaker 1: there was a bit of a prohibition on sadness. There

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Speaker 1: was a bit of a you know, nothing is bad enough.

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Speaker 1: So as a kid That's not an easy thing because

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Speaker 1: whatever booboo you have, you think, you know what, how

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Speaker 1: does that compare with what they've gone through? So I

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Speaker 1: didn't necessarily go to talk to my parents much about

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Speaker 1: my boo boos. And so then I began to think,

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Speaker 1: you know, where does one turn and how does that

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Speaker 1: affect relationships and all of that, and I got interested

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Speaker 1: in stories. My much of my child play was story play.

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Speaker 1: I created the universe as stories. Actually wrote a whole

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Speaker 1: blog about that. How I had one whole story that

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Speaker 1: I played in front of my mother's mirror in her bedroom,

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Speaker 1: where I ran a hit parade of songs and I

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Speaker 1: was the singer, the jury, the composer, the audience. I

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Speaker 1: played every role, you know. I was into acting, play

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Speaker 1: play acting and and and other games like this. So

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Speaker 1: I was very interested in plots. How people interact with others,

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Speaker 1: who is involved, who is rejected, who is included, who

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Speaker 1: ends up leading? All of these systemic interpersonal things was

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Speaker 1: part of how I played and what I began to

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Speaker 1: be interested in as a teenager. And then it was

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Speaker 1: an obvious thing that I would be interested in psychology.

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Speaker 1: I mean, but I thought psychology was mental health. It

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Speaker 1: was mood, mood disorders, personalities, and particularly the relationships between people,

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Speaker 1: and that's kind of where I honed it. So when

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Speaker 1: did that study begin? And when when do you think

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Speaker 1: you knew you wanted this to be your life's work.

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Speaker 1: I would say around fifteen sixteen. Wow. You know, early

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Speaker 1: on it started by reading books about education. I was

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Speaker 1: reading books about you know, because I was in a

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Speaker 1: very repressive school system and I just couldn't believe that

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Speaker 1: it was not a different way of relating to children.

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Speaker 1: And so I read all these books education, alternative education books.

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Speaker 1: There was a big book at the time in the

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Speaker 1: seventies called Three Children of Summer Hill, and it was

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Speaker 1: the beginnings of open education, where you actually asked the

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Speaker 1: child what they were interested in. You know. I came

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Speaker 1: from a culture where the opinion of the kids didn't

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Speaker 1: matter much, certainly not in my school, you know, and

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Speaker 1: the child at all didn't matter much. The material mattered,

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Speaker 1: you know, Latin you those things. So I started my

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Speaker 1: interest by reading about children and the relationship to children

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Speaker 1: and alternative ways to raise children. That's where it began

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Speaker 1: for me. That's so interesting, and it hate but that

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Speaker 1: makes sense, and it's funny because you know, it reminds

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Speaker 1: me of a conversation you and I had before the pandemic,

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Speaker 1: and we were talking about, you know, how people relate

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Speaker 1: and the stories were told, and especially gendered stories that

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Speaker 1: we grow up with when we're young, and how dangerous

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Speaker 1: those can be. You know, when a young girl gets

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Speaker 1: hit by a boy on the playground and an adult

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Speaker 1: says it means he likes you. It's you know, it's

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Speaker 1: the beginning of culturing women to think that abuses romantic

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Speaker 1: And you were talking to me, I can't remember where

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Speaker 1: you said it happens, and then I don't know if

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Speaker 1: it was the Netherlands or or somewhere, but you spoke

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Speaker 1: about how there is a school of thought and a

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Speaker 1: practice that begins the notion of sex education as consent education,

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Speaker 1: as an awareness of others at the age of four,

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Speaker 1: with kids where they learn not to hit and to

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Speaker 1: ask for a hug, and to respect other people's bodies

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Speaker 1: and space, and and how every couple of years there's

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Speaker 1: more information about really how to just be kind and

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Speaker 1: inclusive of others, so that by the time these kids

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Speaker 1: get to you know, twelve and fourteen and sixteen, and

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Speaker 1: actual conversations about intimacy, sex education, consent are happening. It's

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Speaker 1: not a foreign topic. And I just thought, why don't

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Speaker 1: we do that everywhere? So where does that happen? And

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Speaker 1: when do you think? So? When did that? Was the Netherlands?

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Speaker 1: You know it was the Netherlands. Thinking is to talk

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Speaker 1: about stories, and I see, you know, relationships as stories

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Speaker 1: and stories at the bridge to connection and relationships. I

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Speaker 1: remember learning from my parents to listen to the stories

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Speaker 1: of people and to see the stories as entrance into

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Speaker 1: a whole world. So it is very much how I think.

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Speaker 1: I think therapeutically that we in narratives. I work with

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Speaker 1: the narratives of people, So I'm very much about stories.

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Speaker 1: It's just one approach. There many other ways to be

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Speaker 1: a therapist. And I think that when you do early

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Speaker 1: sexual sexuality education, which in Holland is called sexuality and

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Speaker 1: relationship education, it's not sex education, so that it instantly

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Speaker 1: tells you that sexuality is part of a story, the

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Speaker 1: story of relationships, all kinds of relationships, but it is

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Speaker 1: part of a story. It comes with a plot. It

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Speaker 1: isn't just some you know, reflex. It has meaning is

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Speaker 1: what that means? It has meaning, Stories have meaning. They

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Speaker 1: have a plot and they have meaning and what they

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Speaker 1: do is they start at age four. Now at the

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Speaker 1: age four, you don't do sex y issue. You talk

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Speaker 1: about how you know, sometimes there are people that you

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Speaker 1: like and you like when they put their hand on

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Speaker 1: your face because it's your uncle or your you know,

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Speaker 1: or your cousin or your friend or your or the

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Speaker 1: classmate who do whom you want to hold hand because

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Speaker 1: there is a warmth that you feel, you know. And

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Speaker 1: then other people you don't like when they do that.

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Speaker 1: You know, they squeeze that chicken you just kind of

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Speaker 1: want to, you know, And so you know that you

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Speaker 1: learn to know the distinction that there are certain people

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Speaker 1: that you like. You like to play with them more,

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Speaker 1: you like to be with them more. You you convey

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Speaker 1: first of all, the the experience of closeness, care connection,

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Speaker 1: and then from there that becomes later on more eroticized attraction, essensual.

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Speaker 1: You know, you like to sit next to them. You

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Speaker 1: like to sleep in the same bed with your girlfriend,

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Speaker 1: you know, and you don't think about sex and iota,

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Speaker 1: but you know you come to pule next to her

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Speaker 1: and others. You don't want to be sharing the same

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Speaker 1: bed with her when you are on a sleepover, for example,

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Speaker 1: and all of that gradually leads to when you have

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Speaker 1: those feelings of closeness and connection and attraction and ease

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Speaker 1: and comfort, it sometimes also then gets infused with more

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Speaker 1: sexual feelings. This is how this gets woven in. So

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Speaker 1: as a result, one of the very interesting findings is

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Speaker 1: when they interview the boys that are part of this

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Speaker 1: educational system, it is not at all a story of

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Speaker 1: raging hormones when they are teenagers. The story of the

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Speaker 1: connect with a certain person and they want to express that,

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Speaker 1: and it includes sexual feelings and sexual behaviors as part

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Speaker 1: of how they are drawn to that person rather than

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Speaker 1: just an out of control outer body experience of raging

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Speaker 1: hormones that you know they can't do anything about but

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Speaker 1: must act yes, because the idea that there's no breaching

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Speaker 1: Mormons and boys will be boys. That's also a story

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Speaker 1: that's and it's actually a very dangerous story, not only

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Speaker 1: for us but for those boys. It's bad for everyone.

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Speaker 1: It's a story, it's a frame, and it gets, you know,

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Speaker 1: and like every good frame, it gets reinforced, you know,

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Speaker 1: it gets, it reinforces itself by the sheer act of

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Speaker 1: repeating it, and then people can bring in all kinds

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Speaker 1: of biological and evolutionary arguments to solidify it. There's there's

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Speaker 1: parts of that, but that doesn't mean that it can't

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Speaker 1: be a different story. And when boys are different from

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Speaker 1: each other, they're not just different in personality, they're also

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Speaker 1: different in terms of how they have you know, related

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Speaker 1: one has three sisters and has a very different experience

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Speaker 1: of what it means to relate to the sisters, or

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00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:53,040
Speaker 1: three different brothers for that matter, and they have a

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00:24:53,040 --> 00:25:01,760
Speaker 1: different relation to gender, attraction, boundaries, closeness, expressiveness, all of

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Speaker 1: these things. It's not just consent, it's the the entire

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Speaker 1: expressiveness of where does that fit? You know, when we

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Speaker 1: talk about food, we understand that food fits into a

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Speaker 1: larger context. We don't just storm food. Food comes with

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Speaker 1: the table and the people who are at the table,

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Speaker 1: and where the food is cultivated and who is working

398
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:25,320
Speaker 1: that land and how it arrives to us. We talk

399
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Speaker 1: about an ecosystem. But when we talk about sexuality, it's

400
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:34,399
Speaker 1: such a particularism. It's taken out of context completely. And

401
00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:38,400
Speaker 1: that is what a good educational approach to me brings

402
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:46,240
Speaker 1: is that it puts sexuality in a larger context cultural, political, economic, familiar, interpersonal,

403
00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:53,720
Speaker 1: physical context. M M. That's so important and and makes sense.

404
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:55,960
Speaker 1: I mean, I imagine for people listening at home, the

405
00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:58,760
Speaker 1: light bulbs and alarm bells are going off because they're

406
00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:00,919
Speaker 1: going yes, of course, oh my god, nous, And and

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00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:05,119
Speaker 1: it's really true. I think about, you know, the lie

408
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:08,880
Speaker 1: of the raging hormones and the and the lie of uh,

409
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Speaker 1: you know what a good or a bad girl is?

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00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:14,080
Speaker 1: And and I think about what the difference would be

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00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:18,120
Speaker 1: if from a young age you were taught to trust

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Speaker 1: your instincts about people. I like it when I get

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00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:22,520
Speaker 1: a hug from that person, I don't like the way

414
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:25,359
Speaker 1: it feels when this person hugs me. It would it

415
00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:27,919
Speaker 1: would make us all feel so much more permission to

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00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:32,280
Speaker 1: own our experiences, and it you know, it's one example.

417
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Speaker 1: And I got a little bit, I got us on

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Speaker 1: a little bit of a tangent there because I got excited. Um.

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00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:40,920
Speaker 1: But it's one example of what the kinds of study

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Speaker 1: that you do can open. To your point, we can

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00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:48,159
Speaker 1: take what we've long believed to be a topic and

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00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:54,640
Speaker 1: we can realize it's an ecosystem. And and your study

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Speaker 1: which began, you know, studying kids when you were a

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00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:02,919
Speaker 1: teenager that I do to university and you know, to

425
00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:08,760
Speaker 1: your career. The thing I always wonder is what is

426
00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:11,280
Speaker 1: it like? Because I want to talk so much more

427
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:15,040
Speaker 1: about you know, the work and relationships and myths. But

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00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:17,680
Speaker 1: I would be remiss to ask you what is it

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Speaker 1: like for you as a woman with your level of

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00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:25,919
Speaker 1: expertise and understanding about relationships. You know, when when you

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00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:31,200
Speaker 1: eventually met your husband to decide to enter into one,

432
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:34,359
Speaker 1: you know, let alone with an American who grew up

433
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:38,760
Speaker 1: with those American myths, um and American relationship expectations. What

434
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:43,120
Speaker 1: was that moment for you and how did you say,

435
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:45,639
Speaker 1: you know, that's the person who's stuff I want to

436
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:48,919
Speaker 1: deal with. As I am an expert in relationship stuff,

437
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:52,800
Speaker 1: I wasn't yet. It's been a long time, you know.

438
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:55,879
Speaker 1: It's a very interesting thing that when I met my

439
00:27:56,040 --> 00:28:00,160
Speaker 1: partner who we are together, you know, five plus years,

440
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:04,560
Speaker 1: he had never been abroad and I have traveled my

441
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:08,080
Speaker 1: whole life. I speak multiple languages. He speaks many, he says,

442
00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:12,119
Speaker 1: but their visual languages and sensual languages and you know,

443
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:16,200
Speaker 1: in auditory languship. But now he speaks English, and so

444
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:19,879
Speaker 1: it was such an unusual thing, like, but I knew

445
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:23,760
Speaker 1: he had traveled inside, and knew he was artistic, he

446
00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:27,160
Speaker 1: was curious, he was a reader, and that it just

447
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:30,760
Speaker 1: the circumstances of his life and the losses he experienced

448
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:32,600
Speaker 1: made it so that he had not had a chance

449
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:35,879
Speaker 1: to travel. But he was a traveler, and that distinction

450
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:39,080
Speaker 1: is very important. I've seen people who have gone abroad

451
00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:42,920
Speaker 1: a lot, but they're not travelers, curious people who want

452
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:48,040
Speaker 1: to really enter into the worlds of others. And when

453
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:51,680
Speaker 1: we met, I began to confide in him in ways

454
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 1: that I had never done before. I never had opened

455
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:58,320
Speaker 1: up like that to anybody, as very private, and he

456
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:01,680
Speaker 1: just sat and he had a way of listening that

457
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:05,000
Speaker 1: it does with everybody, not just with me, and I

458
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:08,480
Speaker 1: just felt like, Wow, this is a person with whom

459
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:12,040
Speaker 1: I feel very safe and be I can really travel,

460
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:16,400
Speaker 1: so I can experience security and adventure, which are the

461
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:19,440
Speaker 1: two polls and the two polarities in life that I

462
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:23,800
Speaker 1: have often explored in making in Captivity or in my work.

463
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:28,320
Speaker 1: So he really until today, I think that I would

464
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:33,560
Speaker 1: say that the connection between the stability, the safety, the security,

465
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:41,000
Speaker 1: and also the exploration, the curiosity, the traveler's mind is

466
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 1: what I see in him and what I think we

467
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:48,520
Speaker 1: have that's so beautiful and it's it is it's a

468
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:51,160
Speaker 1: perfect way to tee up. You know, your first book,

469
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:56,200
Speaker 1: Meeting in Captivity, really kind of blew the lid off

470
00:29:56,280 --> 00:30:01,840
Speaker 1: of how to have a real, whole and complete relationship.

471
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:07,120
Speaker 1: I think because when you got specific in that book

472
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:12,160
Speaker 1: about how we function and how we function within society

473
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:15,400
Speaker 1: and relationships and how our brains work and relationships, and

474
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:19,000
Speaker 1: you talk about that polarity that you have to figure

475
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:23,200
Speaker 1: out how to balance the desire for mystery and experience

476
00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:29,440
Speaker 1: and newness with the desire for safety and security and trust,

477
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:34,760
Speaker 1: and that you can experience those things with the same

478
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:39,480
Speaker 1: person if you're really being honest and they're really being honest.

479
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:43,200
Speaker 1: And and I find you know, both the book and

480
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:46,680
Speaker 1: your your ted talk where you explain a lot of

481
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 1: this to be so helpful and illuminating. And I wonder,

482
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:56,840
Speaker 1: when you think about truths and myths about relationships, what

483
00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:00,200
Speaker 1: would you share with you know, the folksless and then

484
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:02,840
Speaker 1: at home who maybe haven't read the book yet but

485
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:05,160
Speaker 1: who want to know more. How do you begin to

486
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:10,320
Speaker 1: welcome people into this awareness and this work I just

487
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 1: this week wrote a blog actually about those myths and

488
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 1: meeting came out quite a while ago, but it seems

489
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:24,479
Speaker 1: to address some tendencies that actually have not abided. You know,

490
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:27,960
Speaker 1: the notion that I have ten years of life at

491
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:31,680
Speaker 1: this point that we call a kind of a moratorium period.

492
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:34,960
Speaker 1: People are committing ten years later than they used to,

493
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 1: and during that time, I have ample choice in the

494
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:41,720
Speaker 1: West we're talking now, where I can have apps with

495
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:45,520
Speaker 1: loads of people, and then one moment somebody is going

496
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:49,720
Speaker 1: to capture my attention, my imagination, and that person is

497
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:53,760
Speaker 1: going to make me, you know, so focus that I'm

498
00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:57,320
Speaker 1: going to delete my apps and I'm going to completely

499
00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 1: be immersed and this person is going to become my

500
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:04,840
Speaker 1: soul made. And it is a destiny model of relationships

501
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:08,760
Speaker 1: that it was meant to be. It came from the heavens,

502
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:13,479
Speaker 1: and the destiny model stands in contrast with the growth model.

503
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 1: You know, I never thought of my partner as a

504
00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:19,040
Speaker 1: soul made. I thought that the person with whom I

505
00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 1: would love, I could see living a life with this

506
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:26,560
Speaker 1: person and growing together and exploring things together and you know,

507
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:30,040
Speaker 1: dealing with the issues of life together. That's a very

508
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:33,560
Speaker 1: different notion than the soul made model. I think soul

509
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:38,240
Speaker 1: made used to be God, and in our secularized, individualistic society,

510
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:43,040
Speaker 1: we have turned people into soul mads to with whom

511
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:45,160
Speaker 1: we expect what we used to look for in the

512
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:48,760
Speaker 1: realm of the divine. That's Robert Johnson's point, and I

513
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:52,240
Speaker 1: very much agree with that. We want transcendence and mystery

514
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:55,479
Speaker 1: and awe and wholeness and all of that with one person,

515
00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:58,920
Speaker 1: and we really, too much of the time want one

516
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:03,040
Speaker 1: person to give us an entire community should provide. We

517
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:06,160
Speaker 1: cannot have one person attend to all our needs. And

518
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:08,640
Speaker 1: the more we go into a nuclear model, and the

519
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:11,280
Speaker 1: more we go into a soul made model, and the

520
00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:15,000
Speaker 1: more we are asking this one person to satisfy a

521
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:19,840
Speaker 1: host of contradictory needs, and it really is a burden

522
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:23,560
Speaker 1: on a relationship. It crushes us. We have never had

523
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 1: so many expectations of one party of two. So what

524
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:30,600
Speaker 1: would you say is the most common issue or or

525
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:34,880
Speaker 1: problem that people bring to you when they come to therapy.

526
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:38,040
Speaker 1: There isn't a look. The majority will say that it

527
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:41,720
Speaker 1: is a crisis of communication. But a crisis of communication

528
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:46,680
Speaker 1: can mean, you know, there is trauma that is unresolved,

529
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:49,280
Speaker 1: and that lives in the center of our relationship. That

530
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 1: makes one of us continuously feel abandoned, or one of

531
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:56,720
Speaker 1: us continuously feel attacked, or one of us continuously run away,

532
00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:59,800
Speaker 1: because every fight could be the end of the relationship.

533
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:05,480
Speaker 1: So communication is a code word for how we deal

534
00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:11,960
Speaker 1: with power and control, with care and closeness, We trust,

535
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:16,839
Speaker 1: with recognition, and with respect. I would say that it's

536
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:20,680
Speaker 1: those issues underneath the label. You know, we're having a

537
00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:25,200
Speaker 1: communication crisis. We fight too much, we fight viciously, we

538
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:28,879
Speaker 1: don't resolve anything. Of course, a lot of people come

539
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:33,399
Speaker 1: to me with all kinds of challenges around sexuality and

540
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:38,360
Speaker 1: maintaining an erotic charge in their relationship and erotic dimension,

541
00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:41,359
Speaker 1: feeling flat, feeling that they haven't connected, that they don't

542
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:43,359
Speaker 1: see each other, that they haven't made love to each

543
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:47,600
Speaker 1: other in years. That was the origin of what Making

544
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:51,480
Speaker 1: in Captivity wrote about, was what is the difference between

545
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:54,360
Speaker 1: love and desire? Why does good sex fade even in

546
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:57,279
Speaker 1: couples who love each other as much as ever? Why

547
00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:00,200
Speaker 1: does parents who deliver such a fatal erotic blow like

548
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:03,719
Speaker 1: what happens to desire that is so central for so

549
00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:07,400
Speaker 1: many people at the beginning and how do we sustain it?

550
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:10,000
Speaker 1: So that is the work of mating, and it is

551
00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 1: still a primary issue that people bring to me in

552
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:16,120
Speaker 1: in therapy. It's hard to say, you know, when you've

553
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:19,719
Speaker 1: done work for forty years, you don't think anymore that

554
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:22,759
Speaker 1: there is, but but you know more and more. I

555
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:27,040
Speaker 1: see couples primarily. I like, I do relationship therapy, and

556
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:30,799
Speaker 1: it's it's one aspect of therapy, but there's so many

557
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 1: other things people can work on. So I deal with

558
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:39,360
Speaker 1: how people's relationship to themselves and to each other into

559
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:42,640
Speaker 1: act with each other, back and forth. That is an

560
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:46,160
Speaker 1: essential part of what I work on. I love that

561
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:52,680
Speaker 1: it gives me um. I'm almost visualizing a relationship as

562
00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:55,440
Speaker 1: a as a body. And you know, when you think

563
00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:58,319
Speaker 1: about keeping a body healthy, making sure all of its

564
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:01,879
Speaker 1: systems are working, because if if one system falls off,

565
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:05,160
Speaker 1: then the body begins to fall apart. And I it's

566
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:07,439
Speaker 1: not lost on me that we often refer to good

567
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:12,000
Speaker 1: relationships as healthy. How healthy is your relationship? Do you

568
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:15,360
Speaker 1: have a healthy sex life? You know, it gets applied

569
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:18,040
Speaker 1: to a lot, So I'm curious, do you ever view

570
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:21,040
Speaker 1: relationships through that lens? And if you do, what would

571
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:26,520
Speaker 1: you say makes a romantic relationship healthy? So I don't

572
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:36,359
Speaker 1: use the healthy metaphor as much. What do you prefer? Meaningful, reaching, feeling, creative?

573
00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:40,920
Speaker 1: Healthy can be very puritanical healthy according to who to what?

574
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:43,360
Speaker 1: When people see a healthy sex life, they want to

575
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:46,640
Speaker 1: know about frequency, and maybe they want to know about performance.

576
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:49,400
Speaker 1: And you know, frequency doesn't tell me anything about the

577
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:54,560
Speaker 1: quality of the experience. I mean, women for sure century

578
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:58,680
Speaker 1: and felt nothing. So what are we talking about healthy?

579
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:02,080
Speaker 1: You know, we want to measure I'm not actually talking

580
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:04,680
Speaker 1: much about stuff we can measure. I'm I'm much more

581
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:09,719
Speaker 1: phenomenological than that. So it's really does your relationship give

582
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:13,520
Speaker 1: you a feeling that you're not alone? It's more existential?

583
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:17,319
Speaker 1: You know, do you feel that you are connected to

584
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:24,520
Speaker 1: people for whom you matter? Do you experience joy? Do

585
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:27,200
Speaker 1: you feel that people are there to care for you,

586
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:30,480
Speaker 1: to give you that they seek you out and you

587
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:34,320
Speaker 1: vice versa? You know, what is the quality of your connection?

588
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:38,719
Speaker 1: Do you feel dignified in your relationship or do you

589
00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:43,319
Speaker 1: feel silenced? You kind of accept things just because you

590
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 1: don't want to rattle or because you don't want to

591
00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:49,880
Speaker 1: incur wrath. You know, how safe do you feel, and

592
00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:55,600
Speaker 1: how dignified and seen and respected and attended to. It's

593
00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:58,759
Speaker 1: those kinds of things that I'm much more interested in.

594
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:02,359
Speaker 1: Not know in what category you put them, but you know,

595
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:05,879
Speaker 1: how free do you feel in your relationship rather than

596
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:09,120
Speaker 1: just how safe? You know, if we know about how safe,

597
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:12,399
Speaker 1: but also how free? How much can you do things

598
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:15,520
Speaker 1: that the other person says, go and have a great time?

599
00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 1: M hm, you know, go do your thing. I'm here

600
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:24,120
Speaker 1: for you and I'm interested in that dimension. That doesn't

601
00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:26,960
Speaker 1: mean that it's all. You know, there's more than what

602
00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:30,200
Speaker 1: I do. You know, that's the way I do my reading.

603
00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:33,320
Speaker 1: If you want well, and I love it because it

604
00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:36,400
Speaker 1: it does. It encourages us to get past a checklist,

605
00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:39,719
Speaker 1: past the We have a date night every Friday, and

606
00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:41,480
Speaker 1: we have sex three times a week, and we we

607
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:44,080
Speaker 1: whatever it is that you go there, it is we're

608
00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:46,680
Speaker 1: doing it, and it's like right, but how do you

609
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:49,799
Speaker 1: feel right? So I'm going I'm gonna spend much time

610
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:52,360
Speaker 1: with the doing. I spend time with the experience of

611
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:56,920
Speaker 1: the doing. Exactly you travel, how was the trip? You know?

612
00:38:57,160 --> 00:38:59,680
Speaker 1: You went out? You had date night? How was the

613
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:01,640
Speaker 1: day night? I don't give if you're and just on it.

614
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:06,560
Speaker 1: Did you experience it in a way that felt fulfilling, nourishing,

615
00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:10,759
Speaker 1: enjoying that you want to repeat it. What's the quality

616
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:13,239
Speaker 1: of the things you do, not just the fact that

617
00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:19,080
Speaker 1: you do it exactly, because it feel the word that

618
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:21,279
Speaker 1: I think about a lot when I when I feel

619
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:24,560
Speaker 1: like everything is really working to me, it feels sparkly,

620
00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:29,759
Speaker 1: sparkly regent is my words. And I I think it

621
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:32,960
Speaker 1: can really the questions that you ask and and the

622
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:35,000
Speaker 1: you know, the research that you've done that you offer

623
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:38,960
Speaker 1: to people through your work can really lead us to

624
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:44,200
Speaker 1: ask better questions to then be in better relationship. And

625
00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 1: one of the things I find really fascinating is you know,

626
00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:53,759
Speaker 1: you've you've given people these wonderful tools, and then you

627
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:58,839
Speaker 1: decided to explore the really, you know, taboo topic that

628
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:02,400
Speaker 1: no one wants to admit, you know, they've either experienced

629
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:06,600
Speaker 1: or or you know, had thrown at them or however

630
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:09,320
Speaker 1: we might describe it. But you decided to look into

631
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:15,440
Speaker 1: infidelity with the state of affairs. You said, what do

632
00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:18,360
Speaker 1: these things mean? What is it? What is it signal

633
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:22,399
Speaker 1: when this happens in a relationship? And I'm so curious,

634
00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:25,920
Speaker 1: you know, after teaching people how to mate in captivity?

635
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:28,839
Speaker 1: What made you say, now we're going to look at

636
00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:31,399
Speaker 1: the thing no one wants to talk about. Because if

637
00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:35,400
Speaker 1: one book was looking making in Captivity looked at the

638
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:39,719
Speaker 1: challenges of desire inside the relationship and the state of

639
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:43,319
Speaker 1: affairs basically tracks what happens to desire when it goes

640
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:47,799
Speaker 1: looking elsewhere. M hmm. And I have a knack for

641
00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:52,399
Speaker 1: taking subjects that are sometimes controversial. Making Captivity was very

642
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:55,799
Speaker 1: controversial at the time too, because it really said that

643
00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:58,880
Speaker 1: our emotional needs and our sexual needs or our erotic

644
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:01,880
Speaker 1: needs are not always aligned, They're not always one and

645
00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:05,279
Speaker 1: the same, and that at the time was very controversial.

646
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:09,040
Speaker 1: So I and the reason I go to this topic

647
00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:11,839
Speaker 1: is not because I'm a provocateur, but it's because I

648
00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:16,840
Speaker 1: find that challenging topics can sometimes make us very quick

649
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:22,720
Speaker 1: and judgmental and black and white, rather than really staying

650
00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:26,520
Speaker 1: with the discomfort of figuring out what is this really about?

651
00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:30,560
Speaker 1: What is played out here? What goes on? And you know,

652
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:34,600
Speaker 1: I started to ask audiences, have you been affected by

653
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:38,719
Speaker 1: the experience of infidelity in your life, either because you

654
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:41,239
Speaker 1: are the child of a parent who wasn't faithful or

655
00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:44,480
Speaker 1: yourself the offspring of an illicit love, or one of

656
00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:49,040
Speaker 1: the three protagonists in an infidelity plot, or the best friend, etcetera.

657
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:53,880
Speaker 1: And basically of the people will raise their hands. You know,

658
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:56,600
Speaker 1: this is not something that happens to a few people

659
00:41:56,680 --> 00:42:01,160
Speaker 1: out there. So then I said, we need something that

660
00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:04,319
Speaker 1: embraces the complexity of this experience, and that is more

661
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:07,520
Speaker 1: helpful to the dozens of people that walk into my

662
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:11,960
Speaker 1: office got gott it by this experience. And it's not

663
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:14,920
Speaker 1: going to be black and white and victim and perpetrator

664
00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:19,360
Speaker 1: and just one story. It's so many, many different stories

665
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:24,680
Speaker 1: that tell the experience of infidelity. And from there, I thought,

666
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:28,279
Speaker 1: the best way I can talk about all these subjects,

667
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:32,080
Speaker 1: maybe beyond writing, is also to let people hear what

668
00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:36,440
Speaker 1: happens in my office, and to put a mic two

669
00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:39,160
Speaker 1: couples who are not my patients and never will be,

670
00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:41,680
Speaker 1: but who apply to be on the podcast. Where should

671
00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:44,719
Speaker 1: we begin, And to let you here because if there

672
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:46,799
Speaker 1: is a taboo, it is to know the truth of

673
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:50,680
Speaker 1: what really goes on in other people's relationships. Nobody knows

674
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:55,360
Speaker 1: and these these even less couples are isolated, and they are,

675
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:59,040
Speaker 1: you know, parading on social Only the good stuff, and

676
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:01,040
Speaker 1: your best friend to come and tell you that they're

677
00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:04,080
Speaker 1: breaking up and you never saw it coming. So I

678
00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:06,640
Speaker 1: thought that I want to open you know, you were

679
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:08,960
Speaker 1: you told me you were in Italy. You know, I

680
00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:12,080
Speaker 1: remember being in Italy at that moment and seeing the

681
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:15,240
Speaker 1: small streets, and I thought, God, in those villages, everybody

682
00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:19,080
Speaker 1: knows what's happening in the neighbor's house. But in the cities,

683
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:21,640
Speaker 1: you don't know your neighbor at all. You know nothing

684
00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:24,080
Speaker 1: about what's happening, and you think that what's happening to

685
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:28,440
Speaker 1: you is just you only your relationship is struggling with

686
00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:31,480
Speaker 1: these things. And that's when I thought, I'm gonna do

687
00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:36,120
Speaker 1: a podcast where I'm going to play the conversations. What

688
00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:38,600
Speaker 1: you say that, what are the conversations, what are the

689
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:41,520
Speaker 1: questions people are dying to ask each other? How do

690
00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:50,640
Speaker 1: I facilitate those difficult conversations you know that happened around intimacy, sexuality, infidelity,

691
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:56,200
Speaker 1: trauma in the relationship. And that became where should we begin,

692
00:43:56,280 --> 00:44:01,359
Speaker 1: which is we're now recording season five and um and

693
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:06,319
Speaker 1: then from there I thought, well, stories is kind of

694
00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:11,040
Speaker 1: a theme of my life. I believe in that our

695
00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:13,880
Speaker 1: relationships are stories are the way we tell Our life

696
00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:17,200
Speaker 1: is a story, but stories also bind us and stories

697
00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:21,800
Speaker 1: connect us. I want to create a game of stories.

698
00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:24,880
Speaker 1: In the middle of the pandemic, I needed a happy project,

699
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:28,120
Speaker 1: and I said, I am going to create another way

700
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:31,440
Speaker 1: for people to ask the questions to tell the stories.

701
00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:33,440
Speaker 1: But this time I'm going to put it in the

702
00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:37,439
Speaker 1: version of play rather than therapy, because not everybody comes

703
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:39,960
Speaker 1: to derapy and needs to be in therapy. The play

704
00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:44,239
Speaker 1: is the permission, the frame that one gets to tell

705
00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:46,960
Speaker 1: the stories that one doesn't usually tell. And that's when

706
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:50,080
Speaker 1: I created where should we begin the Game of Stories?

707
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:53,000
Speaker 1: And that's what brings me to today. I love that

708
00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:56,000
Speaker 1: so much and I think about it. You know, it

709
00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:58,680
Speaker 1: sparks the thought that relates to what we were discussing

710
00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:01,600
Speaker 1: in the beginning. Whe it is to be as so

711
00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:04,640
Speaker 1: many people really are but don't talk about and certainly

712
00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:08,560
Speaker 1: don't post on their social media. So many people are

713
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:13,040
Speaker 1: in one version or another children of trauma, and children

714
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:19,080
Speaker 1: of trauma need to play. Our inner children still want

715
00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:23,120
Speaker 1: those free and as you mentioned, in a naive or

716
00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:29,200
Speaker 1: or innocent experiences. And I love that you created a

717
00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:33,080
Speaker 1: game because as you said, there are so many things

718
00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:35,640
Speaker 1: we don't talk about, and so many things we hide

719
00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:39,000
Speaker 1: and back when Mating in Captivity came out, it's so

720
00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:41,080
Speaker 1: funny to me that it was controversial. I'm like, this

721
00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:44,560
Speaker 1: is the most clear and basic information that we we

722
00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:47,600
Speaker 1: could need. But okay, you you forget kind of where

723
00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:50,719
Speaker 1: we've come from um or at least I do sometimes.

724
00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:54,520
Speaker 1: And I think, whether it was that book or when

725
00:45:54,520 --> 00:45:57,440
Speaker 1: State of Affairs came out, you do have a way

726
00:45:57,440 --> 00:46:01,000
Speaker 1: of bringing people into the most important conversation, but it's

727
00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:03,359
Speaker 1: one that they're scared to have. So people sometimes get

728
00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:06,960
Speaker 1: scared when they are met with your work. They go, oh,

729
00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:08,640
Speaker 1: I don't know what's going to happen to me if

730
00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:11,840
Speaker 1: I go there. And and that was one of the

731
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:16,319
Speaker 1: things I really loved about the podcast. When Where Should

732
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:18,920
Speaker 1: We Be In came out, I sent links of it

733
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:22,120
Speaker 1: to everyone I know, and there were people who said, yeah, no,

734
00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:24,880
Speaker 1: I get that you're you're into this, you really like research.

735
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:26,479
Speaker 1: This feels I don't know if I want to listen

736
00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:28,680
Speaker 1: to people's problems, And I just said, that isn't what

737
00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:33,920
Speaker 1: it is. What it is is it's a window inside

738
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:37,640
Speaker 1: and rather than the ways we normally look through windows

739
00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:42,400
Speaker 1: and very produced television or films where someone has created

740
00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:45,880
Speaker 1: the perfect scene to make you feel away. This is

741
00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:50,200
Speaker 1: completely unknown and unexpected, and you will listen to people

742
00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:55,480
Speaker 1: experience something and you will expect them to get angry,

743
00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:57,640
Speaker 1: someone's going to storm out, slam the door, and that's

744
00:46:57,680 --> 00:47:02,480
Speaker 1: not what happens it. I really looked at it as

745
00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:07,120
Speaker 1: a real life opportunity to learn new ways to communicate.

746
00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:09,799
Speaker 1: And the way that you take these couples through these

747
00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:15,200
Speaker 1: sessions is just it's fascinating because you make observations about

748
00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:17,239
Speaker 1: them that clearly no one else has because they haven't

749
00:47:17,239 --> 00:47:20,640
Speaker 1: gotten this honest with other people. And I really would

750
00:47:20,719 --> 00:47:23,399
Speaker 1: love to know, because I'm sure there's people wondering at home.

751
00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:27,880
Speaker 1: You mentioned that people apply to be on it, that

752
00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:32,600
Speaker 1: these are not your patients, but for the recording of

753
00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:36,520
Speaker 1: these podcasts, they come in for sessions with you. So

754
00:47:36,719 --> 00:47:39,480
Speaker 1: how does that work? How do how do people apply

755
00:47:39,680 --> 00:47:43,360
Speaker 1: and how do you then guide them through a process,

756
00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:46,560
Speaker 1: and then how does that process wind up being an episode?

757
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:50,680
Speaker 1: Great dejective behind the stage. So yeah, I'm like, tell

758
00:47:50,719 --> 00:47:55,120
Speaker 1: me how it all works. That's there. So for example,

759
00:47:55,239 --> 00:47:59,600
Speaker 1: for season five, you see at this point, contrary to

760
00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:03,920
Speaker 1: the first season, everybody who's applying has already listened, or

761
00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:07,640
Speaker 1: at least one partner in the relationship has listened. I

762
00:48:07,719 --> 00:48:10,680
Speaker 1: put a post on socialized say, we are recruiting, we

763
00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:14,680
Speaker 1: are accepting applications. We get thousands, I mean out of

764
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:17,120
Speaker 1: we need ten out of a few thousands that we

765
00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:20,080
Speaker 1: currently have for this new season. So we are literally

766
00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:25,640
Speaker 1: currently accepting applications. And they go and my my producer,

767
00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:29,640
Speaker 1: Jesse Baker, with whom I've worked for the entire duration,

768
00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:33,680
Speaker 1: she does the screening. She calls them, she listens, she

769
00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:36,799
Speaker 1: speaks with them, and then it is is this a

770
00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:40,120
Speaker 1: story we haven't told? Can I help them in a

771
00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:43,120
Speaker 1: one time, three hour session or is this something that

772
00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:47,240
Speaker 1: needs more than what I can offer? Are both people

773
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:50,160
Speaker 1: really comfortable being on a podcast? And because it will

774
00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:52,480
Speaker 1: be hurt by others even though we take out all

775
00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:57,640
Speaker 1: identifying information, Uh? Does it? Does it tell stories that

776
00:48:57,719 --> 00:49:00,279
Speaker 1: need to be told? That means that it's too reason

777
00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:02,879
Speaker 1: where you know, the more you will listen to these people,

778
00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:06,040
Speaker 1: you will actually see yourself and themes of our life

779
00:49:06,080 --> 00:49:08,640
Speaker 1: and of our relationship life that we haven't yet addressed.

780
00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:12,000
Speaker 1: And is it inclusive? So does it tell the breath

781
00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:15,520
Speaker 1: of stories, you know, of all kinds of relationships or

782
00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:21,319
Speaker 1: kinds of ages, backgrounds, relational configurations, et cetera, and UM

783
00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:23,879
Speaker 1: and that's how they get chosen and then they meet.

784
00:49:24,719 --> 00:49:27,000
Speaker 1: Usually they used to meet in my office and we

785
00:49:27,080 --> 00:49:30,439
Speaker 1: did an entire season not of where should we begin,

786
00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:33,000
Speaker 1: but of how it's worked. My other podcast, which does

787
00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:36,839
Speaker 1: the same but within the work context, also pairs that

788
00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:40,880
Speaker 1: I recorded on Zoom Remote Uh and I did do

789
00:49:40,960 --> 00:49:44,120
Speaker 1: one season of where should we Begin? During during the pandemic.

790
00:49:44,200 --> 00:49:49,720
Speaker 1: That was Couples in Lockdown. So I went to Lagos, Nigeria, Sicily, Germany,

791
00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:53,280
Speaker 1: New York and really worked with couples who were in lockdown.

792
00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:56,160
Speaker 1: I felt like, this is I have the thing ready

793
00:49:56,560 --> 00:49:59,400
Speaker 1: to go and look at how does this experience affect

794
00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:03,360
Speaker 1: our relationship and how does our relationship affect our experience

795
00:50:03,400 --> 00:50:07,960
Speaker 1: of the confinement and the lockdown. They're they're powerful episodes

796
00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:10,680
Speaker 1: that that happened in the in the middle of April,

797
00:50:12,680 --> 00:50:18,120
Speaker 1: so it was just all happening. And this week I

798
00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:21,920
Speaker 1: interviewed and did a session with a young couple. I

799
00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:25,280
Speaker 1: have been very interested in younger couples for this season.

800
00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:31,960
Speaker 1: UM and questions of queerness in relationship questions of conflict, um,

801
00:50:32,200 --> 00:50:36,120
Speaker 1: questions of when you're young, you haven't you still much

802
00:50:36,160 --> 00:50:41,360
Speaker 1: more connected to the relationship that your parents had, and

803
00:50:41,360 --> 00:50:44,759
Speaker 1: and you haven't yet differentiated that this was their relationship

804
00:50:44,840 --> 00:50:48,200
Speaker 1: and you're going to have something different. You're still wondering

805
00:50:48,239 --> 00:50:50,839
Speaker 1: and where how similar am I to my parents? How

806
00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:53,160
Speaker 1: different am I to my parents? And how much If

807
00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:55,600
Speaker 1: I do this, it's gonna put me right into the

808
00:50:55,640 --> 00:50:58,600
Speaker 1: relationship my parents had and at what I didn't want.

809
00:50:59,560 --> 00:51:02,200
Speaker 1: So I'm very much exploring that. I'm going to explore

810
00:51:02,280 --> 00:51:06,719
Speaker 1: friendships too. I would love to couples of friends on

811
00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:11,279
Speaker 1: the podcast, um, you know, and maybe a parent with

812
00:51:11,320 --> 00:51:14,879
Speaker 1: an adult child, and maybe I may expect a little bit.

813
00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:18,279
Speaker 1: But basically that's the process. Then you come in, we

814
00:51:18,360 --> 00:51:21,440
Speaker 1: have a three hour session, then we edit it, and

815
00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:25,680
Speaker 1: then I'm sitting with the producer. We listen and we track,

816
00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:29,080
Speaker 1: and the tracking is my thoughts, why I did what

817
00:51:29,160 --> 00:51:31,160
Speaker 1: I did, what I wished I had done that I

818
00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:33,759
Speaker 1: didn't do? How could I miss this? How do I

819
00:51:33,840 --> 00:51:38,399
Speaker 1: understand what goes on? It's a it's my narration of

820
00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:44,800
Speaker 1: my experience of the session. M HM. Incredible, and I'm

821
00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:47,360
Speaker 1: so excited at the thought that you'll add other kinds

822
00:51:47,360 --> 00:51:51,560
Speaker 1: of relationships. And and I think it's because listening to

823
00:51:51,719 --> 00:51:57,800
Speaker 1: it really gives a perspective on in unique ways, obviously

824
00:51:57,840 --> 00:52:01,960
Speaker 1: in each person story, but the found national elements of relationships.

825
00:52:02,719 --> 00:52:06,759
Speaker 1: And I think back to you're saying that, you know,

826
00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:10,760
Speaker 1: your first book was controversial, so much of our understanding

827
00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:14,920
Speaker 1: of the foundational elements of relationships has changed since you

828
00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:18,600
Speaker 1: began your work, and especially since you began publishing your

829
00:52:18,600 --> 00:52:21,960
Speaker 1: work and letting all of us in on it. And

830
00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:24,440
Speaker 1: while I can't, you know, read from the book to

831
00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:26,440
Speaker 1: everyone right now, what I can do is we can

832
00:52:26,440 --> 00:52:31,759
Speaker 1: pull a card. So this you know, I'm saying it

833
00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:35,480
Speaker 1: as though people can can see it. But so you know,

834
00:52:35,520 --> 00:52:37,480
Speaker 1: at home, I've got the box where should we begin?

835
00:52:37,560 --> 00:52:41,359
Speaker 1: The game of stories? In front of me? So how

836
00:52:41,880 --> 00:52:47,120
Speaker 1: how shall we begin? So when you play the full

837
00:52:47,400 --> 00:52:49,600
Speaker 1: there's two ways to play, you know, the casual version

838
00:52:49,640 --> 00:52:53,040
Speaker 1: and the committed version, meaning the food game, and then

839
00:52:53,120 --> 00:52:56,320
Speaker 1: just really playing with the prompts themselves. So the prompts

840
00:52:56,320 --> 00:53:00,600
Speaker 1: are not just question they really invite stories, right, So

841
00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:04,880
Speaker 1: actually it would be an interesting question for you. You know,

842
00:53:05,120 --> 00:53:07,879
Speaker 1: there is a strump of the story and then there

843
00:53:07,960 --> 00:53:11,680
Speaker 1: is a frame card. So the story can say I

844
00:53:11,719 --> 00:53:15,560
Speaker 1: would quit my job if you'd pay me too, and

845
00:53:15,640 --> 00:53:19,320
Speaker 1: the frame would could say from your teenage point of view,

846
00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:22,880
Speaker 1: or share it from your most irrational fear, or the

847
00:53:22,960 --> 00:53:25,640
Speaker 1: thing you would never tell your mother, so that you

848
00:53:25,800 --> 00:53:28,760
Speaker 1: never tell twice the same story. Because the frame takes

849
00:53:28,800 --> 00:53:32,040
Speaker 1: you in a very different direction. I could ask you

850
00:53:33,160 --> 00:53:36,120
Speaker 1: that question, I would quit my job because you're so

851
00:53:36,200 --> 00:53:39,520
Speaker 1: identified with what you do, Like if you didn't do this,

852
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:46,040
Speaker 1: what would you do? And therefore, what would you life be?

853
00:53:47,080 --> 00:53:51,600
Speaker 1: Mm hmmm mm hmm, that's interesting. If I didn't if

854
00:53:51,640 --> 00:53:55,040
Speaker 1: I didn't do this, what would I do? I realized

855
00:53:55,120 --> 00:53:59,000
Speaker 1: that because I began my career as an actor, you know,

856
00:53:59,160 --> 00:54:02,760
Speaker 1: my the reer that requires a public life. Anyhow, people

857
00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:05,920
Speaker 1: ask me, you know, and they used to ask me

858
00:54:05,960 --> 00:54:07,680
Speaker 1: if you didn't, if you didn't do this, what would

859
00:54:07,719 --> 00:54:11,000
Speaker 1: you do? And I was a journalism student in college

860
00:54:11,160 --> 00:54:13,400
Speaker 1: and I always said I would probably be a journalist.

861
00:54:13,719 --> 00:54:17,960
Speaker 1: And I realized that, you know, this modern era, technology

862
00:54:17,960 --> 00:54:20,319
Speaker 1: powered era we live in has allowed me to do

863
00:54:20,400 --> 00:54:24,239
Speaker 1: that with this podcast. With this show, I can tell

864
00:54:24,320 --> 00:54:27,880
Speaker 1: stories and be curious. I can write prep docs for interviews.

865
00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:33,319
Speaker 1: I can use all of myself here. And the other

866
00:54:33,360 --> 00:54:35,399
Speaker 1: thing I would always answer was when I was young,

867
00:54:35,480 --> 00:54:37,719
Speaker 1: I really wanted to be a heart surgeon. That was

868
00:54:37,800 --> 00:54:41,359
Speaker 1: my first career plan. And my new show, which will

869
00:54:41,400 --> 00:54:44,080
Speaker 1: come out in January, I happened to play a heart

870
00:54:44,080 --> 00:54:47,800
Speaker 1: surgeon on the show Oh My God. So weirdly everything

871
00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:52,400
Speaker 1: has come full circle, but it revolves around storytelling, and

872
00:54:53,560 --> 00:54:57,600
Speaker 1: it's given me the sort of thirty thou foot overview

873
00:54:57,640 --> 00:55:01,520
Speaker 1: to realize that the are many things I can do

874
00:55:01,760 --> 00:55:04,960
Speaker 1: and will do, but they will always revolve around telling

875
00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:09,080
Speaker 1: people's stories. And and you said it about your your parents,

876
00:55:09,080 --> 00:55:10,919
Speaker 1: what you learned from them that if you know your name,

877
00:55:10,960 --> 00:55:14,399
Speaker 1: you ask other people their names. That's it for me.

878
00:55:14,719 --> 00:55:18,319
Speaker 1: The more I learned people's stories, I have permission to

879
00:55:18,400 --> 00:55:22,080
Speaker 1: really get true with my own. And the more that

880
00:55:22,120 --> 00:55:25,680
Speaker 1: I get into a deeply aware place with myself, the

881
00:55:25,760 --> 00:55:28,120
Speaker 1: more I want to be deeply aware of and understand

882
00:55:28,120 --> 00:55:33,279
Speaker 1: other people. So it's this really beautiful kind of symbiotic thing.

883
00:55:33,320 --> 00:55:37,040
Speaker 1: It feels sparkly, it feels brilliant. There are a few

884
00:55:37,120 --> 00:55:40,360
Speaker 1: stories of story questions for you. I'm just going to

885
00:55:40,520 --> 00:55:45,239
Speaker 1: read a few and you can say stop again. I

886
00:55:45,400 --> 00:55:50,280
Speaker 1: secretly love to break. I am really in this moment

887
00:55:50,480 --> 00:55:53,760
Speaker 1: in time, you know, over this last year, especially trying

888
00:55:53,800 --> 00:55:57,640
Speaker 1: to get into a good relationship with time, because as

889
00:55:57,640 --> 00:55:59,840
Speaker 1: an actor, every day you go to work at the

890
00:55:59,840 --> 00:56:02,600
Speaker 1: time someone tells you to, and you go home whenever

891
00:56:02,600 --> 00:56:03,839
Speaker 1: you go home, and you don't know when that's going

892
00:56:03,880 --> 00:56:05,279
Speaker 1: to be, and someone else tells you when you have

893
00:56:05,320 --> 00:56:07,920
Speaker 1: to come back the next day. So I've never had

894
00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:12,560
Speaker 1: control of my own time, and and now being in

895
00:56:12,600 --> 00:56:16,120
Speaker 1: this year where we've mostly been at home, I've been

896
00:56:16,120 --> 00:56:18,880
Speaker 1: trying to get into a relationship with this idea of

897
00:56:18,920 --> 00:56:23,600
Speaker 1: a routine, and I keep setting bedtimes for myself so

898
00:56:23,640 --> 00:56:25,200
Speaker 1: that I can wake up at the time I want

899
00:56:25,200 --> 00:56:28,520
Speaker 1: to wake up, and I break my bedtime rule all

900
00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:33,160
Speaker 1: of the time. And I can tell that my inner teenager,

901
00:56:33,840 --> 00:56:36,960
Speaker 1: who was very Type A and regimented and did everything

902
00:56:37,000 --> 00:56:41,680
Speaker 1: my parents told me to do, loves breaking a parental rule.

903
00:56:42,480 --> 00:56:45,799
Speaker 1: I can feel her, this little rebel in me, and

904
00:56:45,840 --> 00:56:47,640
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh man, I'm going to have to really

905
00:56:47,640 --> 00:56:51,399
Speaker 1: battle with with my inner team to go to bed

906
00:56:51,440 --> 00:56:53,399
Speaker 1: at ten thirty because she doesn't want to. She wants

907
00:56:53,440 --> 00:56:55,279
Speaker 1: to stay up till one in the morning and tak

908
00:56:55,320 --> 00:56:58,680
Speaker 1: her and read things and watch random shows, and I

909
00:56:58,800 --> 00:57:04,160
Speaker 1: have to sort of parents that part of myself. So

910
00:57:04,280 --> 00:57:07,840
Speaker 1: imagine that you get that question. The beautiful answer a

911
00:57:08,000 --> 00:57:10,960
Speaker 1: rule as secretly love to break, but the frame card

912
00:57:11,080 --> 00:57:14,080
Speaker 1: says that you would never tell your mother or from

913
00:57:14,080 --> 00:57:19,600
Speaker 1: your teenage point of view, awkward or that is cringe worthy,

914
00:57:19,760 --> 00:57:22,960
Speaker 1: or that you get You see how the same question

915
00:57:23,400 --> 00:57:26,360
Speaker 1: constantly shifts. I'm going to read you a few and

916
00:57:26,400 --> 00:57:30,040
Speaker 1: you can pick one for me. Okay, a phone number

917
00:57:30,080 --> 00:57:36,320
Speaker 1: I need to delete. My most irrational fear I never

918
00:57:36,360 --> 00:57:41,480
Speaker 1: shared the whole story about the time. My guilty pleasure

919
00:57:41,720 --> 00:57:45,320
Speaker 1: is if I could change something about the way I

920
00:57:45,360 --> 00:57:49,600
Speaker 1: was raised, it would be I'm most judgmental when it

921
00:57:49,640 --> 00:57:55,360
Speaker 1: comes to a dream. I've never shared a blind spot,

922
00:57:55,560 --> 00:58:01,560
Speaker 1: I have a mistake I'll never make again. My most

923
00:58:01,600 --> 00:58:07,640
Speaker 1: tenacious advice. I'm very curious as a as a person

924
00:58:07,680 --> 00:58:10,240
Speaker 1: who is fascinated by your brain and the way you

925
00:58:10,280 --> 00:58:13,720
Speaker 1: see the world. What is a dream you've never shared?

926
00:58:14,320 --> 00:58:16,680
Speaker 1: It's to never share. That is a challenge, because I

927
00:58:17,320 --> 00:58:24,200
Speaker 1: think that I've shared many of my dreams. But um,

928
00:58:24,320 --> 00:58:27,600
Speaker 1: you know the way you're talking about dreaming about being

929
00:58:27,600 --> 00:58:31,160
Speaker 1: a heart surgeon and then finding yourself acting as a

930
00:58:31,200 --> 00:58:35,640
Speaker 1: heart surgeon. I, as I told you, I play acted

931
00:58:35,800 --> 00:58:39,080
Speaker 1: my whole childhood, and I had big dreams of being

932
00:58:39,080 --> 00:58:44,000
Speaker 1: in the theater, and um, I love the improvisational theater

933
00:58:44,960 --> 00:58:47,919
Speaker 1: and street theater and puppetry, and I did a lot

934
00:58:47,960 --> 00:58:52,160
Speaker 1: of that for years. Um Now I find myself back

935
00:58:52,200 --> 00:58:56,200
Speaker 1: on stage, but very differently. But I am improvising even

936
00:58:56,320 --> 00:59:00,840
Speaker 1: this interview with you apsusation. So I think when I

937
00:59:00,960 --> 00:59:04,000
Speaker 1: talk about the dream that I haven't shared that lot,

938
00:59:04,160 --> 00:59:08,320
Speaker 1: it would be I would love to be a puppeteer again. Sometime.

939
00:59:09,760 --> 00:59:14,240
Speaker 1: I love that, And that makes sense. You know this,

940
00:59:14,760 --> 00:59:18,680
Speaker 1: these games, these ways that we can you know, we

941
00:59:18,720 --> 00:59:22,880
Speaker 1: can play unexpectedly puppet, very unexpected, and I love it

942
00:59:22,920 --> 00:59:25,400
Speaker 1: for you puppets. You know, I used to play Puppets

943
00:59:25,440 --> 00:59:28,080
Speaker 1: with my kids. Puppets that you can tell things through

944
00:59:28,080 --> 00:59:32,440
Speaker 1: the puppets, you can take through the game. It I

945
00:59:32,600 --> 00:59:34,880
Speaker 1: surprise myself in the answer. It's not like I knew

946
00:59:34,920 --> 00:59:37,880
Speaker 1: what I was going to say. Yes, I think that

947
00:59:38,120 --> 00:59:42,280
Speaker 1: a puppet. It's and when you see children look at puppets,

948
00:59:42,320 --> 00:59:47,840
Speaker 1: it's like magic. Yeah. It creates just enough distance from

949
00:59:47,920 --> 00:59:51,160
Speaker 1: us that we feel permission to really let go. That's it.

950
00:59:51,320 --> 00:59:55,080
Speaker 1: That's the same with the card game. People are playing

951
00:59:55,160 --> 00:59:58,760
Speaker 1: it with friends, they're playing it with people they've never met,

952
00:59:58,920 --> 01:00:01,760
Speaker 1: they're playing it with partner. They if they play with

953
01:00:01,800 --> 01:00:04,280
Speaker 1: the family, theyty or with their colleagues. They take out

954
01:00:04,600 --> 01:00:07,760
Speaker 1: the pink triangle cards because then it's more safe for

955
01:00:07,840 --> 01:00:11,640
Speaker 1: family and safe for work. Um. They played in small

956
01:00:11,640 --> 01:00:14,240
Speaker 1: groups or in large groups. But it's the same idea

957
01:00:14,360 --> 01:00:17,240
Speaker 1: then the pup but it gives you just enough distance.

958
01:00:18,440 --> 01:00:20,920
Speaker 1: Every time I play, I leave with one story that

959
01:00:21,040 --> 01:00:24,320
Speaker 1: just blew my mind, like, how did that? You know?

960
01:00:25,640 --> 01:00:28,320
Speaker 1: I love that? And there is there's such a permission

961
01:00:28,320 --> 01:00:31,160
Speaker 1: of discovery when there's a question, you know, for me,

962
01:00:32,400 --> 01:00:34,480
Speaker 1: I don't love a blank page. I don't know where

963
01:00:34,520 --> 01:00:38,440
Speaker 1: to begin. But if there's one question, I can really

964
01:00:38,520 --> 01:00:41,360
Speaker 1: go for it. And it leads you to all of

965
01:00:41,400 --> 01:00:45,520
Speaker 1: these places. One of the things that keeps me up

966
01:00:45,560 --> 01:00:51,560
Speaker 1: at night, oh for me, ye oh goodness. Um, honestly,

967
01:00:51,640 --> 01:00:55,440
Speaker 1: the systems of injustice around the world keep me up

968
01:00:55,480 --> 01:01:00,280
Speaker 1: at night. I stay up reading people's stories, reading through

969
01:01:00,280 --> 01:01:04,720
Speaker 1: the news, looking at how we've gotten to this strange

970
01:01:04,800 --> 01:01:08,880
Speaker 1: place where we discount human experience, and we we pretend

971
01:01:08,960 --> 01:01:13,400
Speaker 1: that Facebook posts and science are the same and and

972
01:01:13,480 --> 01:01:17,160
Speaker 1: that we don't trust, you know, the stewards of the world.

973
01:01:17,240 --> 01:01:23,360
Speaker 1: I genuinely want to understand it because I think that

974
01:01:23,440 --> 01:01:29,720
Speaker 1: a refusal to meet facts also can be a refusal

975
01:01:29,760 --> 01:01:33,880
Speaker 1: to acknowledge human experience. It gives you more permission to

976
01:01:35,120 --> 01:01:38,840
Speaker 1: turn away when when someone is, you know, suffering, or

977
01:01:38,880 --> 01:01:42,600
Speaker 1: something is going wrong and you could perhaps help. And

978
01:01:42,640 --> 01:01:47,800
Speaker 1: so those things really they keep me up late. The

979
01:01:48,000 --> 01:01:53,880
Speaker 1: risk I took that changed my life mm hmmm, quitting

980
01:01:53,880 --> 01:01:57,400
Speaker 1: my last jobb That was a big risk. That was

981
01:01:57,440 --> 01:02:02,880
Speaker 1: a big, dangerous, scary, unstable risk, but I had to

982
01:02:03,520 --> 01:02:06,600
Speaker 1: and it. It did really change everything for me in

983
01:02:06,720 --> 01:02:13,680
Speaker 1: the most wonderful way. And when you see that, I'm

984
01:02:13,840 --> 01:02:16,040
Speaker 1: not going to do it, but you know, I'm instantly

985
01:02:16,120 --> 01:02:21,240
Speaker 1: drawn in. I want to ask more questions. I you know,

986
01:02:21,520 --> 01:02:26,560
Speaker 1: I'm I'm My curiosity is awakened. Yeah, I get to

987
01:02:26,680 --> 01:02:30,360
Speaker 1: see a whole different side of you. And that's what

988
01:02:30,520 --> 01:02:34,400
Speaker 1: starts to happen when people play where should we Begin? Yes,

989
01:02:35,320 --> 01:02:38,400
Speaker 1: I love it, I just love it. You know it's funny.

990
01:02:38,400 --> 01:02:41,360
Speaker 1: I was going to ask you what what advice you

991
01:02:41,360 --> 01:02:43,840
Speaker 1: would give for people in relationships, but I realized that

992
01:02:43,880 --> 01:02:46,560
Speaker 1: the answer is that they should get the game and

993
01:02:46,560 --> 01:02:50,400
Speaker 1: and really play together. That's one thing I mean. I

994
01:02:50,400 --> 01:02:53,960
Speaker 1: would also, you know, it's interesting because I gave advice

995
01:02:54,200 --> 01:02:56,920
Speaker 1: a lot, you know, in the blog, in my newsletter.

996
01:02:57,480 --> 01:03:01,280
Speaker 1: But I also I am a person who thinks that

997
01:03:01,560 --> 01:03:03,800
Speaker 1: a lot of the good advice comes by asking the

998
01:03:03,880 --> 01:03:06,920
Speaker 1: right questions. So I don't say to people, want to

999
01:03:07,040 --> 01:03:10,280
Speaker 1: three do this here? Three steps for that, I say

1000
01:03:10,320 --> 01:03:14,440
Speaker 1: to people, I'm doing a new series on the podcast

1001
01:03:14,520 --> 01:03:18,200
Speaker 1: that's basically me calling people who have sent in questions

1002
01:03:19,160 --> 01:03:22,440
Speaker 1: and they're short. And I don't just say do this,

1003
01:03:23,040 --> 01:03:26,000
Speaker 1: I say, you know what about that? Have you considered this,

1004
01:03:26,240 --> 01:03:28,400
Speaker 1: what happens in this moment? Would you ever want to

1005
01:03:28,440 --> 01:03:31,720
Speaker 1: try such a thing like this? It's a that's more

1006
01:03:31,800 --> 01:03:36,640
Speaker 1: the way that I honor people's intelligence rather than just

1007
01:03:36,800 --> 01:03:40,080
Speaker 1: established myself as if I am an expert. I don't

1008
01:03:40,120 --> 01:03:42,120
Speaker 1: think I'm the only one. I think I think a

1009
01:03:42,120 --> 01:03:44,680
Speaker 1: lot about these things. But there isn't one way, and

1010
01:03:44,720 --> 01:03:47,720
Speaker 1: there isn't one size fits all, And that goes to

1011
01:03:47,800 --> 01:03:50,800
Speaker 1: your you know, Facebook and science isn't one and the

1012
01:03:50,880 --> 01:03:54,480
Speaker 1: same the same in myself on my part of my work,

1013
01:03:54,520 --> 01:03:57,440
Speaker 1: My work is to help you become more confident about

1014
01:03:57,480 --> 01:04:01,000
Speaker 1: your relationships. But that's not by telling you do this

1015
01:04:01,080 --> 01:04:04,040
Speaker 1: and this and this. It's by telling you different things

1016
01:04:04,080 --> 01:04:06,920
Speaker 1: that can be done and helping you make a choice

1017
01:04:06,960 --> 01:04:11,840
Speaker 1: that you will feel confident about well. And it strikes

1018
01:04:11,840 --> 01:04:15,600
Speaker 1: me that it's you are giving people the tools to

1019
01:04:15,720 --> 01:04:20,600
Speaker 1: create their own progress in their relationships, in their lives.

1020
01:04:21,440 --> 01:04:25,920
Speaker 1: And obviously we're on we're on this show. We are

1021
01:04:26,000 --> 01:04:28,560
Speaker 1: we are in the container of the idea of being

1022
01:04:28,640 --> 01:04:34,080
Speaker 1: a work in progress. And you give people so many avenues.

1023
01:04:34,160 --> 01:04:36,480
Speaker 1: You know, you've paved these roads for them to traverse,

1024
01:04:37,680 --> 01:04:40,160
Speaker 1: for their for their progress, for their growth. And I

1025
01:04:40,200 --> 01:04:44,080
Speaker 1: wonder what what for you as there feels like a

1026
01:04:44,120 --> 01:04:48,120
Speaker 1: work in progress in your life. I think that what

1027
01:04:48,160 --> 01:04:51,360
Speaker 1: we're talking about has been a work in progress. You know.

1028
01:04:51,480 --> 01:04:55,240
Speaker 1: I spent thirty plus years just working in my office

1029
01:04:55,280 --> 01:04:59,600
Speaker 1: as a therapist, which I still do and teaching and

1030
01:04:59,720 --> 01:05:02,600
Speaker 1: like ring and training, but it was really clinical work.

1031
01:05:02,680 --> 01:05:05,680
Speaker 1: And you know, a therapist, we don't talk about our

1032
01:05:05,760 --> 01:05:11,160
Speaker 1: work to others. It's it's really a confined space. And

1033
01:05:11,360 --> 01:05:13,920
Speaker 1: I thought, I want to take this outside of the

1034
01:05:14,000 --> 01:05:17,120
Speaker 1: four walls. I want to democratize it. I want to

1035
01:05:17,120 --> 01:05:22,680
Speaker 1: make it free, accessible, inclusive, you know, reachable, worldwide. But

1036
01:05:22,760 --> 01:05:25,480
Speaker 1: I don't want to simplify it to such an extent

1037
01:05:25,520 --> 01:05:27,720
Speaker 1: that it becomes the one to three steps. I want

1038
01:05:27,720 --> 01:05:32,320
Speaker 1: to maintain the depth, levels, the complexity, the layers of

1039
01:05:32,360 --> 01:05:35,200
Speaker 1: what happens in the room. I had never spoken to

1040
01:05:35,280 --> 01:05:40,840
Speaker 1: people I couldn't see. I've only spoken to people. I mean,

1041
01:05:41,120 --> 01:05:43,200
Speaker 1: I was in the one profession that was the most

1042
01:05:43,240 --> 01:05:47,640
Speaker 1: technologically free. No phones, no computer, no nothing, just face

1043
01:05:47,720 --> 01:05:51,000
Speaker 1: to face, you know, in relationship with each other. How

1044
01:05:51,040 --> 01:05:53,920
Speaker 1: do I translate that and take that outside of my

1045
01:05:54,040 --> 01:05:57,640
Speaker 1: office and I, you know, um, and how do I

1046
01:05:57,960 --> 01:06:02,040
Speaker 1: help people cultivate relational intel legions almost like a public

1047
01:06:02,080 --> 01:06:06,760
Speaker 1: health campaign. And that's the project I'm on, the working progress.

1048
01:06:06,920 --> 01:06:10,720
Speaker 1: And for that I talked, you know, I I read

1049
01:06:10,800 --> 01:06:15,640
Speaker 1: a lot. I talked to mentors, colleagues. I try to

1050
01:06:15,680 --> 01:06:18,040
Speaker 1: stay in touch. I think one of the most important

1051
01:06:18,080 --> 01:06:20,040
Speaker 1: things I've done in the last years, and that's how

1052
01:06:20,120 --> 01:06:24,120
Speaker 1: we met, is I began to create a community life

1053
01:06:24,120 --> 01:06:27,400
Speaker 1: for me that is intergenerational. I don't just stay with

1054
01:06:27,520 --> 01:06:30,439
Speaker 1: people who are at my stage of life. I want

1055
01:06:30,440 --> 01:06:34,960
Speaker 1: to know all the things. And that's my working progress

1056
01:06:35,120 --> 01:06:38,360
Speaker 1: is to stay relevant. Well you do it beautifully and

1057
01:06:38,760 --> 01:06:41,600
Speaker 1: you you know, You enriched my life as a as

1058
01:06:41,600 --> 01:06:44,200
Speaker 1: a friend, and you enriched the lives of so many

1059
01:06:44,240 --> 01:06:47,080
Speaker 1: people with the way that you choose to do work

1060
01:06:47,120 --> 01:06:50,600
Speaker 1: in the world. So I thank you from from many

1061
01:06:50,720 --> 01:06:54,600
Speaker 1: vantage points and and I have so loved today, as

1062
01:06:54,640 --> 01:06:57,360
Speaker 1: I'm sure our listeners have. Thank you for this. Thank

1063
01:06:57,400 --> 01:06:58,680
Speaker 1: you so much, it's a pleasure.