Speaker 1: Pushkin.
Speaker 2: I know exactly what she ate, I know what she wore,
Speaker 2: I know who she talked to, I know what words
Speaker 2: she can use, I know what letters she can write,
Speaker 2: I know what books she's read. Like there's a moment there,
Speaker 2: and that moment lasts for several years where you actually
Speaker 2: do know every single input in another person's life.
Speaker 1: Kelly Corrigan once knew everything about her daughters. She also
Speaker 1: knew this would change that as her daughters got older
Speaker 1: and became more independent, Kelly would know less and less
Speaker 1: about their lives. But while Kelly knew this transition was inevitable,
Speaker 1: she still felt a title wave of emotions when it
Speaker 1: actually happened.
Speaker 2: I alternate between this very mature acknowledgment that like, this
Speaker 2: is how it goes, this is the relationship, this is
Speaker 2: the job, and the job is more or less done.
Speaker 2: And I had a lot of conversations with a lot
Speaker 2: of friends about like, can you believe this is the
Speaker 2: way the story goes? Wow? Wow, what an ending.
Speaker 1: On today's show, how one woman's parenting journey went exactly
Speaker 1: according to plan and still left her reeling I'm maya
Speaker 1: shunker and this is a slight change of plans A
Speaker 1: show about who we are and who we become in
Speaker 1: the face of the big change. Adolescence is a time
Speaker 1: of incredible change for kids and the people who care
Speaker 1: for them. Neuroscience studies show that when we become teenagers,
Speaker 1: our brains undergo changes that drive us towards more independence.
Speaker 1: While this transition is considered developmentally appropriate, it can be
Speaker 1: pretty gut wrenching for parents. Kelly writes unflinchingly about these
Speaker 1: kinds of complicated family dynamics. Her book Lift, written as
Speaker 1: a letter to her daughters, is about the emotional hazards
Speaker 1: of raising children, and her memoir The Middle Place touches
Speaker 1: on the unspoken contracts that exist between parents and their children.
Speaker 1: She also hosts a podcast, Kelly Corrigan Wonders, where she
Speaker 1: often talks about parenthood and family life, like her conversation
Speaker 1: with writer Susan Orlean on empty Nesting. Parenthood has been
Speaker 1: on my mind a lot lately. I've been seeing my
Speaker 1: parents get older, and my husband Jimmy, and I are
Speaker 1: wondering if, after several losses and heartbreaks, will still try
Speaker 1: and become parents. So Kelly's story has raised some big
Speaker 1: questions for me, like what do a parent and child
Speaker 1: owe each other, and how does this relationship evolve over time.
Speaker 1: Of course, we'll all have different answers to these questions.
Speaker 1: You'll hear my own surprise at several points in this conversation.
Speaker 1: My parents are immigrants and they raise my three siblings
Speaker 1: and me with a mixture of Indian and American values,
Speaker 1: which means Kelly and I have different perspectives. But regardless
Speaker 1: of our particular views, Kelly showed me just how valuable
Speaker 1: it can be to ask ourselves these questions in the
Speaker 1: first place. Okay, now onto my conversation with Kelly. I
Speaker 1: started by asking her why she wanted to have kids.
Speaker 2: I don't think I ever had a conscious moment where
Speaker 2: it was like, oh, I definitely want to be a mother.
Speaker 2: I don't think I ever had a change of heart.
Speaker 2: It was just totally woven in from the jump. And
Speaker 2: I'm not a particularly sweet person, Like I wouldn't say
Speaker 2: that I'm huge, nice or patient. I'm not a good cook,
Speaker 2: I always run late, I forget a lot of things.
Speaker 2: I am not good with forms. There's a huge bureaucratic
Speaker 2: element to parenting that I would give myself like a
Speaker 2: d So it wasn't that I thought I was going
Speaker 2: to be particularly good at it in those superficial ways
Speaker 2: of like managing a family. But what I wanted, what
Speaker 2: I craved, what I couldn't wait to be a part of,
Speaker 2: was the intimacy. And it is extraordinary. It is extraordinary,
Speaker 2: Like there is not in my life experience comparable relationships
Speaker 2: outside of the family frame.
Speaker 1: Use the word intimacy, Kelly, and I'm trying to figure
Speaker 1: out what that word means to you in this context.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, it's interesting. When we were growing up outside
Speaker 2: of Philadelphia, we only had one window unit air conditioner,
Speaker 2: and in the summer, you know, it's like one hundred degrees,
Speaker 2: it's so high you have bug bites up and down
Speaker 2: your whole body. And one by one, my older brothers
Speaker 2: and I would walk down the hall and go to
Speaker 2: sleep on my parents' floor, so that when we woke
Speaker 2: up every day in the summer, I'd have like GT's
Speaker 2: foot in my face and Booker's foot in my belly,
Speaker 2: and like we were just kind of in there together.
Speaker 2: I love that, And I loved that we didn't ever
Speaker 2: get central air conditioning. I loved it that that was
Speaker 2: the only way was to share this air together all
Speaker 2: night long and breathe all over each other, and you know,
Speaker 2: people are bourbon and farting, and it's kind of hilarious
Speaker 2: because you can only do it with so few people. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, anything that you can only do with like
Speaker 2: a handful of people your whole life, Like, that's just
Speaker 2: got to be significant.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I so resonate with this intimacy concept, and I think
Speaker 1: until now I hadn't really thought about the physical component
Speaker 1: of just being present with one another in all of
Speaker 1: these bland moments that are totally lacking in signify, except
Speaker 1: in the aggregate, they add up to a kind of
Speaker 1: familiarity that we just don't experience with anybody else when
Speaker 1: we're growing up. And I remember I was absolutely the
Speaker 1: kid that was insatiable when it came to physical affection
Speaker 1: and that kind of physical closeness and proximity. So I'm
Speaker 1: just thinking back to when I remember in seventh grade,
Speaker 1: my family of six we went on a cruise and
Speaker 1: it was like the most exciting thing that my family
Speaker 1: was ever to do. We went on one of these
Speaker 1: like whatever carnival cruises or something, and my parents treated
Speaker 1: themselves to like the nice view of the ocean room
Speaker 1: and us. Four kids were put into this little box
Speaker 1: with two sets of bunk beds, and that was my
Speaker 1: favorite thing in the whole world. Like we still weren't
Speaker 1: close enough in that little box together, because I just
Speaker 1: found it intoxicating to be so close to these people
Speaker 1: who I loved.
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly.
Speaker 1: So you ended up having two daughters, Georgia and Claire,
Speaker 1: And I'm curious to know whether in the early years
Speaker 1: your expectations of mom lined up with reality.
Speaker 2: So I mean it went off the rails fairly quickly
Speaker 2: because when Claire was one and Georgia was two, I
Speaker 2: got diagnosed with stage three cancer and I was in chemotherapy,
Speaker 2: and so everything was up in the air. I did surgery,
Speaker 2: then I did another surgery that I had my ovaries removed.
Speaker 2: Then I did a whole nother year of chemotherapy, and
Speaker 2: then it was like really finally over about maybe eighteen
Speaker 2: months after it started. And then you have to come
Speaker 2: all the way back down into your life again. And
Speaker 2: then it did start to feel like this is what
Speaker 2: I wanted in particular. Two things. One is my husband
Speaker 2: Edward got up super early. He left at six o'clock
Speaker 2: and then at six ' oh one when the door closed,
Speaker 2: Claire would pad over and jump in on one side,
Speaker 2: and at six point thirty Georgia would pad over and
Speaker 2: get in on the other side. And there was nowhere
Speaker 2: we had to be, and they were just on me.
Speaker 2: And I remember thinking, I know this is special. I
Speaker 2: know this will end. This is what I wanted, this
Speaker 2: is what I didn't want to miss right now, this
Speaker 2: feeling I had no pressures on me, they had no preschool,
Speaker 2: and oh god, it was so great. And then the
Speaker 2: other thing is all these super surprising moments, like a
Speaker 2: crazy surprising moment was Georgia looking at the mail and saying,
Speaker 2: what is this And I was like, oh my god,
Speaker 2: it's your last name. That's your last name, and she
Speaker 2: was like, what's a last name. I'm like, oh my god,
Speaker 2: this is I just could not have seen this coming, Like,
Speaker 2: of course someone has to tell you that there's such
Speaker 2: a thing as a last name, and this is what
Speaker 2: yours is, and this is what the letters are, and
Speaker 2: this is the order you write them in, and this
Speaker 2: is how you do it. And so I remember writing
Speaker 2: in my journal that night I taught Georgia her last name.
Speaker 1: Today, you wrote in the New York Time that before
Speaker 1: our children become themselves, when they are more physical than
Speaker 1: intellectual and emotional, we claim them piece by piece. The
Speaker 1: way he sits like his dad, the furrow of her
Speaker 1: brow so much like her mom's, her flat feet, his
Speaker 1: luscious eyelashes just like grandpa's. I wonder, how did you
Speaker 1: quote claim Georgia and Claire? What was your version of this?
Speaker 2: Georgia makes this very funny face when she's reading or concentrating,
Speaker 2: that sort of looks like she's angry, and it is
Speaker 2: exactly what Edward looks like when he's concentrating. So this
Speaker 2: little knot in her brow is Edward's.
Speaker 1: It feels like this idea of claiming our kids, I mean,
Speaker 1: it runs deeper than their physical traits. It seems like,
Speaker 1: I mean, I really want to understand when you say
Speaker 1: we claim them piece by piece. Unpack that for me
Speaker 1: and what that means. What does it mean to claim children?
Speaker 1: And like, what does that do to our own psychology
Speaker 1: as parents?
Speaker 2: Well, I think it's super dangerous and I think it's wrongheaded,
Speaker 2: and I think it's probably really common. I remember the
Speaker 2: first time Claire saw the ocean. We were driving in
Speaker 2: San Diego and we pulled over and she ran straight
Speaker 2: for the water, and then instantly like, instead of letting
Speaker 2: that just be hers, it was like, ah, she's just
Speaker 2: like you, Edward, she's a swimmer, and it's like, well,
Speaker 2: or she's just her and she's having a great moment.
Speaker 2: And I think because uncertainty is so intolerable, and because
Speaker 2: we're narrative making machines, that it's quite common and probably
Speaker 2: misleading that we might see a kid's personality trait and
Speaker 2: decide without even knowing we're doing it. But this is
Speaker 2: because blank like either it's because you are the way
Speaker 2: you are, your husband is the way they are, they're
Speaker 2: your grandparents, something about their sibling or some moment that
Speaker 2: you observed, and so you're always like deconstructing your kid's
Speaker 2: behavior and tagging it. And I don't think that's to
Speaker 2: anybody's benefit. I think it's understandable, like we are dying
Speaker 2: to understand. We are eager to make sense of our
Speaker 2: children's moods and their behaviors and what they do that's
Speaker 2: problematic or self defeating or self sabotaging, and what they
Speaker 2: do that's spectacular that we can't wait to tell our
Speaker 2: friends they did, and kind of attribute that to people,
Speaker 2: because like, who wants to say, I don't know, Yeah,
Speaker 2: I don't know why she does that. Yeah, it's the
Speaker 2: very first thing you do is try to figure out why.
Speaker 1: When was the first time it occurred to you, Kelly
Speaker 1: that your kids were doing things or learning things that
Speaker 1: you were not a part of.
Speaker 2: So these girls of mine had this incredible babysit Her
Speaker 2: name was Sophie, and Sophie had this boyfriend, Joel, and
Speaker 2: Joel had this adorable mom. And when Sophie took care
Speaker 2: of the girls, she often took them over to Joel's
Speaker 2: house and Joel's mom was there, and the girls are adorable,
Speaker 2: and so the mom was enjoying them and giving them
Speaker 2: little cookies and taking them out for a swim and whatever.
Speaker 2: All of this is sort of unknown to me. I'm
Speaker 2: just happy that Sophie's in charge. They love her, she
Speaker 2: loves them. So it was a beautiful babysitting relationship. And
Speaker 2: fast forward like a year and a half. We're on
Speaker 2: a little family walk and this woman pulled over in
Speaker 2: her car and rolled down the window and said, Hi, Georgia,
Speaker 2: And I thought, how could you possibly know my kid?
Speaker 2: There is no way that she could know someone that
Speaker 2: I didn't introduce her to, like she's too little, she
Speaker 2: doesn't even know words. I didn't tell her, Like I'm
Speaker 2: doing everything. I know exactly what she ate, I know
Speaker 2: what she wore, I know who she talked to, I
Speaker 2: know what words she can use, I know what letters
Speaker 2: she can write, I know what books she's read. And
Speaker 2: this is probably why it's so hard to pull your
Speaker 2: hands off the wheel. There is a moment there, and
Speaker 2: that moment lasts for several years where you actually do
Speaker 2: know every single input in another person's life because you're involved,
Speaker 2: you're doing it, you're managing it, you're facilitating it.
Speaker 1: You're talking about the early years, like the first few years, the.
Speaker 2: Early early years. Yeah, and then this lady was like, hi, Georgia,
Speaker 2: and I was like, this is so weird. And I
Speaker 2: was like, Hi, I'm Georgia's mom. And I remember hearing
Speaker 2: myself say I'm Georgia's mom and thinking, oh, this is
Speaker 2: this is the beginning of this, This is the beginning
Speaker 2: of me in the world as just Georgia's mom.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And I'm assuming as your girls got older that
Speaker 1: you got more and more of these examples of how
Speaker 1: their lives were growing independently of yours.
Speaker 2: Well. I mean, it's very interesting to be told what
Speaker 2: your child can and cannot do by any number of teachers,
Speaker 2: And there's often moments of surprise there, so you're either
Speaker 2: like waiting for them to confirm all of your impressions.
Speaker 2: But if you're doing a good job, if you really
Speaker 2: have your mind wide open, you'll hear things that you
Speaker 2: think I didn't know that about her. I didn't know
Speaker 2: she loved math, or in the reverse. I remember this
Speaker 2: teacher of Georgie's in high school said George is like
Speaker 2: a great science student, like she understands everything. And I
Speaker 2: said to Georgia, God, do you love science? And she said,
Speaker 2: oh no, I don't love science. I'm just good at science.
Speaker 2: And I was like, oh right. Again, there's this like
Speaker 2: fine parsing, where your category making machine of a brain
Speaker 2: is like ough A plus B equal C, and she's like, no,
Speaker 2: apos B equals D.
Speaker 1: What did it feel like emotionally when it was revealed
Speaker 1: to you that you either didn't know something about your
Speaker 1: daughters or that the conclusion you had drawn about them
Speaker 1: was not the same conclusion someone else had drawn about them.
Speaker 2: Sometimes thrilling, sometimes it was a little moment of awe,
Speaker 2: like this is cool, like watching a great movie or
Speaker 2: reading a great book when you're surprised. Yeah, and sometimes
Speaker 2: it was maddening because I was sure that I was
Speaker 2: right and the person was wrong, and then they had
Speaker 2: some influence in their life and I didn't want that.
Speaker 2: Sometimes it was unnerving. It's a terrible feeling to think
Speaker 2: there's something important about your kid that you are not perceiving.
Speaker 2: It's terrifying, and it happens more and more as they
Speaker 2: get older.
Speaker 1: Yeah, when it came to their transition to college. And
Speaker 1: I can imagine how jarring that is in particular because,
Speaker 1: like you said, when when your kids are living under
Speaker 1: your roof, even if they don't share everything with you,
Speaker 1: you still get so much access to their lives just
Speaker 1: through your exposure, right, Like you might see them interact
Speaker 1: with their friends after school, or you might know their
Speaker 1: or you will know their calendar of activities because you're
Speaker 1: doing pickups and drop offs, right, So you at least
Speaker 1: have this illusion that you have access to a large
Speaker 1: chunk of their lives, even if some of the emotional
Speaker 1: content of their lives is being withheld from you, And
Speaker 1: so at some point you had to deal with physically
Speaker 1: separating from your kids when they went off to school.
Speaker 1: And I'm wondering if you can set the scene for
Speaker 1: me of what it was like to drop your younger
Speaker 1: daughter off for college and officially become an empty nester.
Speaker 2: Well, it's interesting. My older daughter left two years before,
Speaker 2: and when I was taking her the night before, we
Speaker 2: had gone to pick up stuff at Target or whatever.
Speaker 2: And she goes tomorrow, when you got.
Speaker 1: Me off, know me, just know me, know who I
Speaker 1: am and what my preferences are. That's basically what she was.
Speaker 2: Saying, exactly, put me first. And I was like, I
Speaker 2: get it. You don't want a scene, you don't want tears,
Speaker 2: you don't want me talking to people. Just take the
Speaker 2: stuff in, drop it off, give her a hug, and
Speaker 2: get out of there. And I was like, I got this.
Speaker 2: I can do this, And I think I did all right.
Speaker 2: I mean you'd have to ask her, but I think
Speaker 2: I did fine. So fast forward two years. I had
Speaker 2: to take Claire to University of Virginia and she is
Speaker 2: also really ready. So we had our horrible moment, like
Speaker 2: our snotty, weeping, shaking moment. Can't even talk about it.
Speaker 2: Now in the Airbnb, and I just said, do you mind, like,
Speaker 2: can I just let this all out? And basically what
Speaker 2: I was feeling is this is the part of life
Speaker 2: that I was looking forward to the most, and today
Speaker 2: is the end of it. And there will be great things,
Speaker 2: of course, so much good work to do, so many
Speaker 2: people to love and help I get it. But this
Speaker 2: is what I wanted the most, and today it's changing forever.
Speaker 2: We're never going back. And would you just mind if
Speaker 2: I had a total nervous breakdown for about five minutes
Speaker 2: and then I'll blow my nose and we'll get in
Speaker 2: that van and we'll go load up your room and
Speaker 2: I'll get out of there. And she said sure, and
Speaker 2: so they just held her and then we went. It
Speaker 2: went so fast like it you know, it's because the car,
Speaker 2: like the blinkers are on. Yeah, and when you pull up,
Speaker 2: there's a nice person with a clipboard and they're like, hi,
Speaker 2: you know, you're in room three eighteen and you have
Speaker 2: thirty eight minutes to move this car. And so the
Speaker 2: blinkers are on and somebody's got eyes on your vehicle
Speaker 2: and you're going up and down the stairs and then
Speaker 2: it's over and I was like bye, and honestly, like,
Speaker 2: I know, I probably sound like a crazy person, but
Speaker 2: I knew what was happening, and I was right. It
Speaker 2: is different. It is over, like that part is over
Speaker 2: and it's fine, like I'm gonna have a great forty years.
Speaker 2: But there's no denying that, like the big page has
Speaker 2: been turned and I'm something else now. To them, I'm
Speaker 2: something different. I mean, you stand around with a bunch
Speaker 2: of moms on the playground and someone says their mom's
Speaker 2: coming to town. The reaction is like, ooh, how long
Speaker 2: she's staying. That's most of the time. That's kind of
Speaker 2: where you end up, is that you're a slightly like
Speaker 2: I love her, but like, yeah, three nights. That's where
Speaker 2: this road is headed. I guess I couldn't help but
Speaker 2: feel it. I couldn't help but see it in its totality,
Speaker 2: and you know, like every heaving SOB was just acknowledging
Speaker 2: that this is real.
Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment. With a slight change
Speaker 1: of plans. When Kelly Corgan's daughters moved away to college,
Speaker 1: she was eager to stay involved in their lives, but
Speaker 1: her daughters were busy getting to know their new environment
Speaker 1: and figuring things out for themselves, and so when Kelly
Speaker 1: did connect with them, she would only receive small glimpses
Speaker 1: into their lives.
Speaker 2: This is when the rubber hits the road, I think,
Speaker 2: is when your kid moves out and you don't have
Speaker 2: eyes on them anymore, so you don't have a way
Speaker 2: to know their life and their moods and their well being.
Speaker 2: You're not able to assess their well being with your
Speaker 2: own eyes. You can't hear the tone of their voice,
Speaker 2: you can't see their posture, you can't see whether they're
Speaker 2: eating or not eating, whether they went for a run
Speaker 2: or stayed in bed. It's like a big black box
Speaker 2: and all you have are these tiny conversations where at
Speaker 2: like four to twelve on Tuesday, they might be in
Speaker 2: a great mood, and at four thirty on Tuesday, long
Speaker 2: after the call is over, something horrible happens. But until
Speaker 2: you talk to them again, you're still in four twelve
Speaker 2: Tuesday mode, where you're like and people ask all the time.
Speaker 2: Wherever you go, people say how are your kids? And
Speaker 2: whatever they've told you on four to twelve on Tuesday,
Speaker 2: you're like, she's great, she's awesome. And conversely, if you
Speaker 2: catch them on nine am on Saturday morning and they're terrible.
Speaker 2: Then they are terrible until the next time you talk
Speaker 2: to them and hear the spark back in their voice.
Speaker 1: When it came to the transition to college, one thing
Speaker 1: that you wrote, Kelly is you actually were given guidance
Speaker 1: by the campus psychologist that was like, hey, parents, now's
Speaker 1: your time to back the f off right, Like there's
Speaker 1: something like that. Tell me more about that. That was
Speaker 1: so interesting to me and so shocking and like not
Speaker 1: at all what happened, for example, when I was off
Speaker 1: to college. If no one is even thinking through this
Speaker 1: lens of child development and individuation or any of that stuff.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. So Claire goes to University of Virginia and
Speaker 2: the day of drop off, there was a letter sent
Speaker 2: to all the parents of the freshman class and it
Speaker 2: said some sort of nuts and bolt stuff, and then
Speaker 2: it said, here's a note from our one of the
Speaker 2: people that works in our counseling office on campus. It
Speaker 2: is not okay for you to be texting your kid
Speaker 2: multiple times every day. The best thing you could do
Speaker 2: for them is to stand back a little bit and
Speaker 2: let them get into some kind of groove. Because as
Speaker 2: soon as you say to somebody, how's it going, the
Speaker 2: true answer is I don't know yet, Like it's going
Speaker 2: to take me eight weeks to tell you how it's going.
Speaker 2: As a cognitive scientist, you're the one to confirm this.
Speaker 2: But I feel like once you label something that it
Speaker 2: takes on greater meaning, Like that language and thoughts and
Speaker 2: feelings are all kind of linked in this way that
Speaker 2: if she's if I make her say it's good, it's bad,
Speaker 2: I like it, I don't like it. How's your roommate
Speaker 2: she's okay, Then all of a sudden, that framing takes
Speaker 2: on added power to define what happens next. And that's
Speaker 2: such a mistake. And so this guy said unequivocally, leave
Speaker 2: your kids alone, let them drive. If they want to
Speaker 2: contact you, go ahead. You don't have to respond to
Speaker 2: your kid within like sixty seconds.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm just laughing at this moment. Thinking back to
Speaker 1: when I felt this transition. I think it was in
Speaker 1: college at some point where you know, my parents were
Speaker 1: so available to me when I was in high school
Speaker 1: and in college, I went to college close by to
Speaker 1: where they lived, so i'd still see them a bunch,
Speaker 1: But I remember I would call my mom or dad
Speaker 1: and they were just too busy for me. My Mom's like,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I'm helping people get green cards to study
Speaker 1: in this country. And my dad's like, I'm in the
Speaker 1: middle of the physics equation, you know. And I just
Speaker 1: remember thinking it was actually amazing in that moment to
Speaker 1: feel like a little bit of that lifeline was cut off,
Speaker 1: because it meant that I was on my own a bit, right,
Speaker 1: and I just had to kind of figure stuff out myself.
Speaker 1: And I never really thought about that until this moment,
Speaker 1: And now I'm realizing that was probably quite helpful for
Speaker 1: my development, that they had their own thing.
Speaker 2: Oh, it's phenomenal, And this is a huge new thing
Speaker 2: for me that I'm trying to get my head around
Speaker 2: right this second, Like something new is beginning now and
Speaker 2: I can make it great. Like I'm totally I love Edward,
Speaker 2: I love my work. We're starting new things. I love novelty.
Speaker 2: I'm learning, like everything I know how to put this
Speaker 2: together in a way that I can be happy and
Speaker 2: productive and useful. That doesn't mean that's something didn't end.
Speaker 1: To articulate what ended writer or what felt so stark
Speaker 1: about the move away from home or just maybe their adolescence.
Speaker 1: It was a decrease in emotional intimacy. Is that what
Speaker 1: you were feeling? Is that what you were grieving?
Speaker 2: Well, I mean first I was grieving knowing them in
Speaker 2: the way that you know someone who lives in your house,
Speaker 2: like you're a kid in college or the rest of
Speaker 2: their life, Like how much does your mom know about
Speaker 2: you right now? How much does my mom know about
Speaker 2: me right now? Not as much as she did when
Speaker 2: I was seventeen? Do you know who Tim Urban is?
Speaker 2: He writes this thing called wait but why Yeah, of course.
Speaker 2: So he did this thing where it was like this
Speaker 2: little dot scale of how many days you have with
Speaker 2: your parents, And as you can imagine, when you're one, two, three, four, five,
Speaker 2: a lot of days. Like when Georgia was one, I
Speaker 2: had three hundred and sixty five days with her. When
Speaker 2: Georgia's eighteen, I have thirty five days with her. When
Speaker 2: George's thirty, I have twelve days with her. When George's forty,
Speaker 2: I have five days with her, like five days in
Speaker 2: a year, like not that many. So I guess I
Speaker 2: was just grieving, like this is what's going to happen?
Speaker 2: Like this is the way this is. And it's so
Speaker 2: weird to me that something that was so consuming for
Speaker 2: me as a kid, it's like all I thought about.
Speaker 2: And then when it started happening, like when I met
Speaker 2: Edward and fell in love and got married and then
Speaker 2: we got pregnant, and we got pregnant again, I thought,
Speaker 2: this is it, Like it's happening. But I didn't have
Speaker 2: any big, really specific visions about what happens now. So
Speaker 2: it wasn't like I was like moving into this awesome
Speaker 2: thing that I had been anticipating my whole life. It
Speaker 2: was like, oh God, this is the part where like
Speaker 2: nobody really knows what they're doing and how long they
Speaker 2: should do it for. And you know, like this part
Speaker 2: is so ambiguous compared to you know, in the first
Speaker 2: stage of your life, you're someone's kid, and then if
Speaker 2: you become a parent, then you do that for the
Speaker 2: next stage, and then the next stage is like what now,
Speaker 2: this is a time to like move your focus. It's
Speaker 2: like in my mind at night when I wake up,
Speaker 2: I literally think like of this visual where I'm rotating
Speaker 2: my field of vision away from them to the people
Speaker 2: in my life right now who can make use of
Speaker 2: me I mean, it's interesting. I have so much work.
Speaker 2: I have a TV show on PBS, I have a podcast.
Speaker 2: We produce three podcasts every week. I'm writing a manuscript
Speaker 2: and I'm writing a children's book right now. Wow, And
Speaker 2: it's still not enough to get them out of my
Speaker 2: field of vision, like they're still right there. I still
Speaker 2: have to like sweep them away and like almost like
Speaker 2: burn my head and leave them in their own little
Speaker 2: box over there doing whatever they're doing, which is something
Speaker 2: I will never know, right. It's not like I'm gonna
Speaker 2: get the play by play later where they're like, here's
Speaker 2: what happened in college, Like it's not coming. I'm not
Speaker 2: gonna know. It's none of my business, honestly, and if
Speaker 2: I'm doing it right, I don't even want to know.
Speaker 2: Like that's where I'm trying to get to. And so
Speaker 2: the way I do it is just like this little
Speaker 2: exercise where it's like they're full in the frame. I
Speaker 2: used to be a photographer, So if you can imagine,
Speaker 2: like you're holding your camera to your eye and you're
Speaker 2: filling the frame with your kids, and then you just
Speaker 2: rotate and you put somebody else in the center of
Speaker 2: the frame. You put your work. You put somebody you
Speaker 2: love who needs some help. You put somebody who makes
Speaker 2: you feel useful, you put some volunteer activity, you put
Speaker 2: your spouse, anybody like move your field of focus.
Speaker 1: Yeah, along the way as part of this long journey
Speaker 1: right through childhood and then adolescent and then now they're
Speaker 1: own adults going off into the world, were you ever
Speaker 1: tempted to put up some emotional walls to try to
Speaker 1: protect yourself from getting hurt?
Speaker 2: I mean, probably, like like a shooting star kind of thought.
Speaker 2: But like the minute you see them on your phone,
Speaker 2: you're like, hey, how are you? Like, you know, the
Speaker 2: night before you're like, I got a stop. This is crazy,
Speaker 2: you know, I'm like losing my mind here. And then
Speaker 2: it's like it's like being in a romance a little bit. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean, Tina Fey did this hilarious thing on Jimmy Fallon.
Speaker 1: I love that.
Speaker 4: Having a teenage daughter is like having an office crush,
Speaker 4: because you just like always like you're thinking about them
Speaker 4: a lot more than they're thinking about you, and you
Speaker 4: just like go up to their door and you're like
Speaker 4: a bunch of us are going to eat dinner.
Speaker 1: You're probably busy, you know, like just trying to play
Speaker 1: it cool, but like, don't worry because you might be
Speaker 1: like super busy, So I totally get yeah, if you
Speaker 1: can't come, but like, yeeah.
Speaker 2: I've definitely like on a bag day when I feel
Speaker 2: like my involvement is counterproductive, where I'm messing it up,
Speaker 2: I'm making it harder for them, I'm putting rocks in
Speaker 2: their backpack in some way that I'm newly aware of.
Speaker 2: And then you kind of like flooded with shame and defensiveness.
Speaker 2: And then I always think the same thought, which is
Speaker 2: I'm going to go to Europe and live there for
Speaker 2: five years and leave you alone and let you do
Speaker 2: your individuating and I'll see you, you know, when you're
Speaker 2: twenty eight, and it'll be great, Like you don't need
Speaker 2: me and I'm just making trouble and I got to
Speaker 2: avert my gaze. So anyway, yes, my instinct is like
Speaker 2: get out of the way. But I have to get
Speaker 2: out of the way in this very dramatic move where
Speaker 2: I'm like, I can't talk to you for five years.
Speaker 2: I go grow up and I'll take care of myself.
Speaker 2: And you know, it's so stupid, You're.
Speaker 1: Gonna miss me, kid, You're gonna miss me because I'm
Speaker 1: actually a really good hang. Yeah, that's right, that's right,
Speaker 1: that's gonna say. Kelly and I are hitting it off.
Speaker 1: I do find that, ye, I do find sometimes that
Speaker 1: I'm like, you know, people find like what I have
Speaker 1: to say to be useful, Like I you know, like
Speaker 1: you're like, I have a TV show, Yeah, people like
Speaker 1: tune in.
Speaker 2: You wouldn't believe it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know. I'm trying to put myself in your shoes.
Speaker 1: And of course I don't have kids, so it's hard
Speaker 1: for me to fully appreciate the relationship or what that
Speaker 1: bond is like. But I could just imagine myself feeling
Speaker 1: betrayed by the system, if that makes sense, Like wtf,
Speaker 1: this is the arc, this is how things are supposed
Speaker 1: to play out, And now here I am with my
Speaker 1: heart just broken into pieces and feeling like I don't
Speaker 1: have the kind of intimacy that I had before with
Speaker 1: my kids, and not because I don't want it. In fact,
Speaker 1: I'm obsessed with them, Like I would just feel so
Speaker 1: ticked off. Did you ever feel that way?
Speaker 2: Yes? I feel I alternate between this very mature acknowledgment
Speaker 2: that like, this is how it goes, this is the relationship,
Speaker 2: this is the job, and the job is more or
Speaker 2: less done. And now I'm here to enjoy them when
Speaker 2: they happen to have time to enjoy me. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 2: like can't get enough, don't need a thing. That's my motto.
Speaker 2: It's like, can't get enough, don't need a thing. And
Speaker 2: I you know, I had a lot of conversations with
Speaker 2: a lot of mom friends about can you believe this
Speaker 2: is the way the story goes?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Wow, Wow, what an ending.
Speaker 1: Let's say that you're the organizer of the universe. You
Speaker 1: get to decide for just one moment. Finally, let's enter
Speaker 1: this natural Yeah, finally, I know, even waiting for this moment,
Speaker 1: I'm giving it to you, girl.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 1: I want you to help me understand, like emotionally, if
Speaker 1: we're solving for your needs in this moment, what would
Speaker 1: the natural arc of parent child relationship look like? How
Speaker 1: would it have turned out on their way to college?
Speaker 1: How would it have been different? And you're in control,
Speaker 1: you're the design architect here.
Speaker 2: That the way it would be different is that we
Speaker 2: would the parents would have some switch built into us
Speaker 2: that flips at just the right moment, such that we
Speaker 2: can totally let go and be thrilled by the release.
Speaker 2: And I think some people have that. I mean, Edward,
Speaker 2: my husband would not give you the same answers to
Speaker 2: these questions, like he's delighted. He can't believe it. It's
Speaker 2: just fantastic. It's great that they're on their own, it's
Speaker 2: great they're independent. It's great that they don't need to
Speaker 2: talk to us that much. Like it's all turning out perfectly,
Speaker 2: And I admire him for that. I think he's probably right,
Speaker 2: Like I don't defend where I'm coming from, and in fact,
Speaker 2: I consider myself flawed. Just don't think I'm alone in it.
Speaker 2: I just have a feeling that a lot of us
Speaker 2: feel this way.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it's interesting because even from a cultural perspective,
Speaker 1: I'm thinking about how different my own orientation is about
Speaker 1: what children owe their parents or vice versa. Like my
Speaker 1: parents aren't like, hey, is it okay if I text
Speaker 1: your call? They will call me whenever the hell they want,
Speaker 1: and the expectation is that I will pick up. So
Speaker 1: that's a whole other thing, which is just societal expectations
Speaker 1: within the Indian culture about what this relationship is like
Speaker 1: and I'm just thinking in this moment, how curious is
Speaker 1: it that your answer to my question wasn't well, that
Speaker 1: my kids would just keep sharing their lives with me.
Speaker 1: God damn it, that's what I really want. I want
Speaker 1: them to keep sharing with me everything. And that's such
Speaker 1: an interesting perspective that your answer was was an adjustment
Speaker 1: on the parent side. It involved no adjustment to how
Speaker 1: the kids development turns out or that's striving for independence.
Speaker 1: So it seems like you're comfortable with the independence piece.
Speaker 1: You just need to Yeah, ooh interesting.
Speaker 2: You know one thing that makes me super happy, and
Speaker 2: I just noticed it because it happened yesterday, is when
Speaker 2: I know that they're experiencing deep intimacy with someone else,
Speaker 2: I'm delighted and it really helps me let go. So
Speaker 2: Georgia has this great friend named Nora, Claire has this
Speaker 2: great friend named Emma. Those relationships really help me release
Speaker 2: because I think, oh my god, whatever Claire takes to Emma,
Speaker 2: whatever Georgia takes to Nora, she's going to get great advice.
Speaker 2: They have great camaraderie. They have the kinds of conversations
Speaker 2: that like, sure, in a perfect world, I'd love to
Speaker 2: have that conversation. I'd love to be in on that.
Speaker 2: I love a deep conversation. I mean, I love talking
Speaker 2: to you, but it's not appropriate for me to be
Speaker 2: the one in that conversation. What's perfect is for them
Speaker 2: to have one great friend and have the two of
Speaker 2: them kind of figuring it out together. And that's true
Speaker 2: of both my girls, and that makes me really happy
Speaker 2: and it really helps me let go.
Speaker 1: So intellectually I'm on board. I want to know how
Speaker 1: you get your emotional side to catch up to that
Speaker 1: realization that actually it's developmentally appropriate for them to have
Speaker 1: that friend and for it not to be me. How
Speaker 1: do you because I'm just trying to think about okay,
Speaker 1: like a parent's listening to this right now, being like, Kelly,
Speaker 1: you've convinced my prefrontal cortex that you've convinced my rational
Speaker 1: brain that this is how I ought to see things.
Speaker 1: But oh my god, it's a blow to feel like
Speaker 1: when they get broken up with I'm not the first
Speaker 1: person they're calling. I'm not on their favorites list.
Speaker 2: That doesn't bother me. Like, as long as you're in
Speaker 2: good hands, I'm happy. It doesn't have to be my hands.
Speaker 2: The idea that you would be alone and in pain
Speaker 2: and not calling me. That kills me. I love you
Speaker 2: more than all the people in the whole world and
Speaker 2: anyone ever will, so let it be me. But if
Speaker 2: they have a peer, that's really my first choice. My
Speaker 2: first choice is that they would know true friendship with
Speaker 2: just one person, that is plenty. You can get anywhere
Speaker 2: from there, and I had that. You know, I had
Speaker 2: a great friend in college, Tracy Tuttle. I talk about
Speaker 2: her all the time, and she's so important to me
Speaker 2: to this day. And I think it must have been
Speaker 2: lovely for my mom to think she's got Tracy Tuttle. Yeah,
Speaker 2: the girl's never going to leave her, and she never did.
Speaker 2: I mean, we've been friends for thirty five years.
Speaker 1: You know. One of the reasons, Kelly, are so excited
Speaker 1: and eager to have you on the show is that
Speaker 1: your story is so different from the others that we've heard,
Speaker 1: because in your case, everything did go to plan right.
Speaker 1: Your kids grew up, Yes, they became their own people.
Speaker 1: You've written elsewhere that they're parting from you marks the
Speaker 1: ultimate success, right like that is the end goal, and
Speaker 1: yet the reality of it totally knocked your socks off.
Speaker 2: MM hm, yes, exactly. There was no change of plans
Speaker 2: whatsoever the day they were born. This is what we
Speaker 2: would hope for.
Speaker 1: And yeah, and I think what it's done is it's
Speaker 1: made me expand my understanding of change in the context
Speaker 1: of this show and in my life, to include those
Speaker 1: experiences where we intellectually know what to expect, but we
Speaker 1: can't possibly predict how it will make us feel.
Speaker 2: That's right, that's right. I mean there is like a
Speaker 2: grand canyon between what I know and what I feel. Yeah,
Speaker 2: a grand canyon.
Speaker 1: And I can see that tension in this conversation. I
Speaker 1: feel like you've got these two you got like the
Speaker 1: Angel and devil metaphorically like on your shoulders, right, and
Speaker 1: one of them is like, now, Kelly, this is what
Speaker 1: you ought to be like and then the other parts
Speaker 1: like bawling tears just remembering the moment you let your
Speaker 1: kid go. So I can the tension is so palpable
Speaker 1: to me in this conversation. Yeah, it's like an ongoing
Speaker 1: battle between intellect and emotion. Right.
Speaker 2: It's exhausting, My, it's so exhausting.
Speaker 1: Yes, how do you think differently about your role as
Speaker 1: a parent now than maybe you used to or just
Speaker 1: given the stage of life your kids are in.
Speaker 2: I don't think I'm a parent anymore. And people will
Speaker 2: go bananas over that, but I really don't.
Speaker 1: That's fascinating. Tell me more about that.
Speaker 2: For me, that's the only way for me to get
Speaker 2: in the right space. It's the only way for me
Speaker 2: to orient myself relative to them. Is like, I'm not
Speaker 2: your parent. You don't belong to me. I'm not responsible
Speaker 2: for you. I don't own you. Your life is none
Speaker 2: of my business. You may share as much or as
Speaker 2: little as you like. I shouldn't have an opinion about everything,
Speaker 2: what you wear, who you dated, how your hair it is,
Speaker 2: what your major is, what job you take, what are
Speaker 2: you doing this summer? Like, so, I'm just a person
Speaker 2: who's crazy about you. That's who I am.
Speaker 3: Hmm.
Speaker 2: But I am not a parent in the way that
Speaker 2: I have always defined that word.
Speaker 1: And how did you define it before? You know?
Speaker 2: I'm responsible for you. Yeah, I'm here to take care
Speaker 2: of you, and now i'm you know, I'm on standby,
Speaker 2: I'm your emergency contact.
Speaker 1: Given the new contours of this relationship, I wonder what
Speaker 1: you feel that you can reasonably expect from your kids, Like,
Speaker 1: what do you feel that you should expect from your
Speaker 1: kids at this stage.
Speaker 2: I think I should expect as little as possible. I
Speaker 2: think that the next I mean, really, this sounds crazy,
Speaker 2: but I think the next time I can really expect
Speaker 2: things from them is when I'm old and dying. I
Speaker 2: think everything else is not their problem. And if they
Speaker 2: want to come around and great, but they don't owe
Speaker 2: me that they really don't.
Speaker 1: And yet you owe them being on standby indefinitely, able
Speaker 1: to cheer them on no matter what, and to love
Speaker 1: them unconditionally.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, that is the framework of the relationship in
Speaker 2: my opinion.
Speaker 1: And that, like that feels like a cheap deal. Kelly Corgan,
Speaker 1: I'm just saying. I'm just listening out, and I get
Speaker 1: what you're saying, But damn, that's hard.
Speaker 2: It's the only way for it to be beautiful. It's
Speaker 2: the only way that it could be beautiful.
Speaker 1: Hmm. Okay. So I think what I'm realizing is, like
Speaker 1: we all talk about unconditional love, it's a platitude. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you have helped me better grasp what that kind of
Speaker 1: unconditional love can look like in this relationship. You've made
Speaker 1: it more specific for me, which is really helpful, I
Speaker 1: think to understand what we mean when we say the platitude.
Speaker 1: This is partly what we mean. We mean accepting that
Speaker 1: we're getting the short end of the stick and being
Speaker 1: okay with it.
Speaker 2: If there's any obligation from therein to me, then it
Speaker 2: can't be beautiful. It can just be the meeting of
Speaker 2: an obligation. If there's no obligation and then you actually
Speaker 2: have time together and you actually enjoy each other and
Speaker 2: there's actually sort of a nice flow between you, then
Speaker 2: it's beautiful. Somehow, you have to learn to relish giving
Speaker 2: it away with no expectation of return, because then if
Speaker 2: they return, when they return, when they love you back,
Speaker 2: when they crave you, it's magnificent.
Speaker 1: Hey, thanks so much for listening. Join me next week
Speaker 1: when I talk to psychologists doctor Marissa Franco about the
Speaker 1: science of friendship. Marisa wants us to value our friends
Speaker 1: like we value our family and our romantic partners, because
Speaker 1: friends can help us access new and exciting parts of ourselves.
Speaker 3: Each person that we interact with is an advertisement for
Speaker 3: the coaleidoscope of ways in which we can live. That
Speaker 3: learning happens through being able to see a friend engage
Speaker 3: at a certain hobby or interest and you're like, maybe
Speaker 3: I would like that hobby or interest. It's that exposure
Speaker 3: that we get through each friend, and so in that way,
Speaker 3: it's like each person that we interact with can bring
Speaker 3: out a new and different side of our identities.
Speaker 1: A Slight Change of Plans is created, written, and executive
Speaker 1: produced by me Maya Shunker. The Slight Change family includes
Speaker 1: our showrunner Tyler Green, our senior editor Kate Parkinson Morgan,
Speaker 1: our sound engineer Andrew Bastola, and our associate producer Sarah McCrae.
Speaker 1: Louis Scara wrote our delightful theme song, and Ginger Smith
Speaker 1: helped arrange the vocals. A Slight Change of Plans is
Speaker 1: a production of Pushkin Industry, So big thanks to everyone there,
Speaker 1: and of course a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee.
Speaker 1: You can follow a Slight Change of Plans on Instagram
Speaker 1: at doctor Maya Shunker, See you next week.
Speaker 2: My daughters have said to me, it's a hug, mom,
Speaker 2: not a hang.
Speaker 1: So Kelly, I'm here. I'm here for the hang any day, Okay,
Speaker 1: I'll come over and we will embrace.
Speaker 2: I'll hold you anytime. You're so tiny, I could pick
Speaker 2: you up and put me in my arms.