WEBVTT - The Grief of Empty Nesting with Kelly Corrigan 0:00:14.956 --> 0:00:15.396 Pushkin. 0:00:30.476 --> 0:00:32.676 I know exactly what she ate, I know what she wore, 0:00:32.996 --> 0:00:34.756 I know who she talked to, I know what words 0:00:34.836 --> 0:00:37.236 she can use, I know what letters she can write, 0:00:37.436 --> 0:00:39.796 I know what books she's read. Like there's a moment there, 0:00:39.836 --> 0:00:42.996 and that moment lasts for several years where you actually 0:00:43.116 --> 0:00:47.356 do know every single input in another person's life. 0:00:48.276 --> 0:00:52.196 Kelly Corrigan once knew everything about her daughters. She also 0:00:52.316 --> 0:00:55.436 knew this would change that as her daughters got older 0:00:55.556 --> 0:00:58.756 and became more independent, Kelly would know less and less 0:00:58.796 --> 0:01:02.996 about their lives. But while Kelly knew this transition was inevitable, 0:01:03.476 --> 0:01:06.476 she still felt a title wave of emotions when it 0:01:06.516 --> 0:01:07.316 actually happened. 0:01:08.036 --> 0:01:13.476 I alternate between this very mature acknowledgment that like, this 0:01:13.516 --> 0:01:16.156 is how it goes, this is the relationship, this is 0:01:16.196 --> 0:01:18.676 the job, and the job is more or less done. 0:01:19.316 --> 0:01:21.956 And I had a lot of conversations with a lot 0:01:21.956 --> 0:01:26.516 of friends about like, can you believe this is the 0:01:26.556 --> 0:01:31.156 way the story goes? Wow? Wow, what an ending. 0:01:33.636 --> 0:01:37.476 On today's show, how one woman's parenting journey went exactly 0:01:37.516 --> 0:01:49.956 according to plan and still left her reeling I'm maya 0:01:50.036 --> 0:01:52.876 shunker and this is a slight change of plans A 0:01:52.916 --> 0:01:55.316 show about who we are and who we become in 0:01:55.396 --> 0:02:10.676 the face of the big change. Adolescence is a time 0:02:10.796 --> 0:02:14.276 of incredible change for kids and the people who care 0:02:14.316 --> 0:02:18.276 for them. Neuroscience studies show that when we become teenagers, 0:02:18.516 --> 0:02:22.356 our brains undergo changes that drive us towards more independence. 0:02:23.236 --> 0:02:26.956 While this transition is considered developmentally appropriate, it can be 0:02:27.076 --> 0:02:31.996 pretty gut wrenching for parents. Kelly writes unflinchingly about these 0:02:32.116 --> 0:02:36.356 kinds of complicated family dynamics. Her book Lift, written as 0:02:36.356 --> 0:02:39.516 a letter to her daughters, is about the emotional hazards 0:02:39.556 --> 0:02:43.316 of raising children, and her memoir The Middle Place touches 0:02:43.356 --> 0:02:47.156 on the unspoken contracts that exist between parents and their children. 0:02:48.236 --> 0:02:51.556 She also hosts a podcast, Kelly Corrigan Wonders, where she 0:02:51.636 --> 0:02:55.436 often talks about parenthood and family life, like her conversation 0:02:55.556 --> 0:02:59.716 with writer Susan Orlean on empty Nesting. Parenthood has been 0:02:59.716 --> 0:03:02.436 on my mind a lot lately. I've been seeing my 0:03:02.516 --> 0:03:05.356 parents get older, and my husband Jimmy, and I are 0:03:05.396 --> 0:03:08.996 wondering if, after several losses and heartbreaks, will still try 0:03:09.116 --> 0:03:12.876 and become parents. So Kelly's story has raised some big 0:03:12.956 --> 0:03:15.716 questions for me, like what do a parent and child 0:03:15.756 --> 0:03:19.556 owe each other, and how does this relationship evolve over time. 0:03:20.596 --> 0:03:23.396 Of course, we'll all have different answers to these questions. 0:03:23.956 --> 0:03:27.076 You'll hear my own surprise at several points in this conversation. 0:03:27.876 --> 0:03:30.756 My parents are immigrants and they raise my three siblings 0:03:30.756 --> 0:03:34.076 and me with a mixture of Indian and American values, 0:03:34.476 --> 0:03:38.396 which means Kelly and I have different perspectives. But regardless 0:03:38.396 --> 0:03:41.636 of our particular views, Kelly showed me just how valuable 0:03:41.636 --> 0:03:44.036 it can be to ask ourselves these questions in the 0:03:44.076 --> 0:03:48.516 first place. Okay, now onto my conversation with Kelly. I 0:03:48.556 --> 0:03:51.276 started by asking her why she wanted to have kids. 0:03:52.356 --> 0:03:54.436 I don't think I ever had a conscious moment where 0:03:54.476 --> 0:03:56.316 it was like, oh, I definitely want to be a mother. 0:03:56.916 --> 0:03:58.916 I don't think I ever had a change of heart. 0:03:59.676 --> 0:04:02.876 It was just totally woven in from the jump. And 0:04:02.916 --> 0:04:07.996 I'm not a particularly sweet person, Like I wouldn't say 0:04:08.036 --> 0:04:13.996 that I'm huge, nice or patient. I'm not a good cook, 0:04:14.036 --> 0:04:17.076 I always run late, I forget a lot of things. 0:04:17.916 --> 0:04:20.836 I am not good with forms. There's a huge bureaucratic 0:04:20.916 --> 0:04:23.836 element to parenting that I would give myself like a 0:04:23.916 --> 0:04:26.556 d So it wasn't that I thought I was going 0:04:26.636 --> 0:04:29.996 to be particularly good at it in those superficial ways 0:04:30.036 --> 0:04:36.116 of like managing a family. But what I wanted, what 0:04:36.236 --> 0:04:39.476 I craved, what I couldn't wait to be a part of, 0:04:39.636 --> 0:04:45.236 was the intimacy. And it is extraordinary. It is extraordinary, 0:04:45.316 --> 0:04:50.236 Like there is not in my life experience comparable relationships 0:04:50.596 --> 0:04:51.916 outside of the family frame. 0:04:54.036 --> 0:04:56.516 Use the word intimacy, Kelly, and I'm trying to figure 0:04:56.556 --> 0:05:00.996 out what that word means to you in this context. 0:05:01.716 --> 0:05:05.036 Yeah, Well, it's interesting. When we were growing up outside 0:05:05.076 --> 0:05:08.996 of Philadelphia, we only had one window unit air conditioner, 0:05:09.636 --> 0:05:11.636 and in the summer, you know, it's like one hundred degrees, 0:05:11.676 --> 0:05:13.396 it's so high you have bug bites up and down 0:05:13.436 --> 0:05:16.836 your whole body. And one by one, my older brothers 0:05:16.836 --> 0:05:19.236 and I would walk down the hall and go to 0:05:19.236 --> 0:05:21.756 sleep on my parents' floor, so that when we woke 0:05:21.836 --> 0:05:24.356 up every day in the summer, I'd have like GT's 0:05:24.356 --> 0:05:26.396 foot in my face and Booker's foot in my belly, 0:05:26.476 --> 0:05:29.596 and like we were just kind of in there together. 0:05:29.916 --> 0:05:32.716 I love that, And I loved that we didn't ever 0:05:32.756 --> 0:05:35.196 get central air conditioning. I loved it that that was 0:05:35.236 --> 0:05:39.076 the only way was to share this air together all 0:05:39.156 --> 0:05:41.556 night long and breathe all over each other, and you know, 0:05:41.636 --> 0:05:44.836 people are bourbon and farting, and it's kind of hilarious 0:05:45.076 --> 0:05:48.756 because you can only do it with so few people. Yeah, 0:05:48.796 --> 0:05:50.716 you know, anything that you can only do with like 0:05:50.756 --> 0:05:54.236 a handful of people your whole life, Like, that's just 0:05:54.276 --> 0:05:55.476 got to be significant. 0:05:55.956 --> 0:05:56.196 Yeah. 0:05:56.236 --> 0:05:59.076 I so resonate with this intimacy concept, and I think 0:05:59.156 --> 0:06:02.756 until now I hadn't really thought about the physical component 0:06:02.796 --> 0:06:05.396 of just being present with one another in all of 0:06:05.436 --> 0:06:09.836 these bland moments that are totally lacking in signify, except 0:06:09.836 --> 0:06:12.196 in the aggregate, they add up to a kind of 0:06:12.236 --> 0:06:16.196 familiarity that we just don't experience with anybody else when 0:06:16.196 --> 0:06:19.516 we're growing up. And I remember I was absolutely the 0:06:19.636 --> 0:06:24.516 kid that was insatiable when it came to physical affection 0:06:24.796 --> 0:06:27.436 and that kind of physical closeness and proximity. So I'm 0:06:27.436 --> 0:06:30.116 just thinking back to when I remember in seventh grade, 0:06:30.196 --> 0:06:32.916 my family of six we went on a cruise and 0:06:32.956 --> 0:06:35.596 it was like the most exciting thing that my family 0:06:35.636 --> 0:06:36.756 was ever to do. We went on one of these 0:06:36.796 --> 0:06:40.596 like whatever carnival cruises or something, and my parents treated 0:06:40.596 --> 0:06:43.796 themselves to like the nice view of the ocean room 0:06:44.076 --> 0:06:47.196 and us. Four kids were put into this little box 0:06:47.316 --> 0:06:50.476 with two sets of bunk beds, and that was my 0:06:50.716 --> 0:06:54.236 favorite thing in the whole world. Like we still weren't 0:06:54.276 --> 0:06:57.236 close enough in that little box together, because I just 0:06:57.276 --> 0:07:01.676 found it intoxicating to be so close to these people 0:07:02.636 --> 0:07:03.276 who I loved. 0:07:04.116 --> 0:07:04.996 Yes, exactly. 0:07:05.596 --> 0:07:08.476 So you ended up having two daughters, Georgia and Claire, 0:07:09.236 --> 0:07:12.396 And I'm curious to know whether in the early years 0:07:12.476 --> 0:07:15.156 your expectations of mom lined up with reality. 0:07:15.716 --> 0:07:18.636 So I mean it went off the rails fairly quickly 0:07:18.956 --> 0:07:22.836 because when Claire was one and Georgia was two, I 0:07:22.916 --> 0:07:26.156 got diagnosed with stage three cancer and I was in chemotherapy, 0:07:26.596 --> 0:07:30.796 and so everything was up in the air. I did surgery, 0:07:30.836 --> 0:07:33.076 then I did another surgery that I had my ovaries removed. 0:07:33.156 --> 0:07:35.516 Then I did a whole nother year of chemotherapy, and 0:07:35.556 --> 0:07:38.396 then it was like really finally over about maybe eighteen 0:07:38.396 --> 0:07:41.956 months after it started. And then you have to come 0:07:42.156 --> 0:07:45.636 all the way back down into your life again. And 0:07:45.676 --> 0:07:49.036 then it did start to feel like this is what 0:07:49.116 --> 0:07:52.476 I wanted in particular. Two things. One is my husband 0:07:52.596 --> 0:07:55.476 Edward got up super early. He left at six o'clock 0:07:55.556 --> 0:07:58.796 and then at six ' oh one when the door closed, 0:07:59.196 --> 0:08:01.476 Claire would pad over and jump in on one side, 0:08:01.756 --> 0:08:04.196 and at six point thirty Georgia would pad over and 0:08:04.236 --> 0:08:06.636 get in on the other side. And there was nowhere 0:08:06.636 --> 0:08:09.436 we had to be, and they were just on me. 0:08:10.156 --> 0:08:13.716 And I remember thinking, I know this is special. I 0:08:13.796 --> 0:08:16.796 know this will end. This is what I wanted, this 0:08:16.876 --> 0:08:19.796 is what I didn't want to miss right now, this 0:08:19.956 --> 0:08:24.356 feeling I had no pressures on me, they had no preschool, 0:08:25.196 --> 0:08:28.436 and oh god, it was so great. And then the 0:08:28.476 --> 0:08:32.316 other thing is all these super surprising moments, like a 0:08:32.436 --> 0:08:38.836 crazy surprising moment was Georgia looking at the mail and saying, 0:08:38.876 --> 0:08:40.916 what is this And I was like, oh my god, 0:08:41.556 --> 0:08:44.916 it's your last name. That's your last name, and she 0:08:45.116 --> 0:08:47.316 was like, what's a last name. I'm like, oh my god, 0:08:47.396 --> 0:08:49.716 this is I just could not have seen this coming, Like, 0:08:49.756 --> 0:08:52.796 of course someone has to tell you that there's such 0:08:52.796 --> 0:08:54.836 a thing as a last name, and this is what 0:08:54.876 --> 0:08:57.036 yours is, and this is what the letters are, and 0:08:57.076 --> 0:08:58.636 this is the order you write them in, and this 0:08:58.716 --> 0:09:02.316 is how you do it. And so I remember writing 0:09:02.316 --> 0:09:06.396 in my journal that night I taught Georgia her last name. 0:09:06.436 --> 0:09:10.996 Today, you wrote in the New York Time that before 0:09:11.076 --> 0:09:14.316 our children become themselves, when they are more physical than 0:09:14.396 --> 0:09:19.076 intellectual and emotional, we claim them piece by piece. The 0:09:19.116 --> 0:09:21.636 way he sits like his dad, the furrow of her 0:09:21.676 --> 0:09:25.476 brow so much like her mom's, her flat feet, his 0:09:25.556 --> 0:09:29.556 luscious eyelashes just like grandpa's. I wonder, how did you 0:09:29.676 --> 0:09:33.996 quote claim Georgia and Claire? What was your version of this? 0:09:34.876 --> 0:09:38.636 Georgia makes this very funny face when she's reading or concentrating, 0:09:39.316 --> 0:09:42.956 that sort of looks like she's angry, and it is 0:09:43.036 --> 0:09:46.596 exactly what Edward looks like when he's concentrating. So this 0:09:46.636 --> 0:09:50.036 little knot in her brow is Edward's. 0:09:52.076 --> 0:09:56.476 It feels like this idea of claiming our kids, I mean, 0:09:56.556 --> 0:10:00.596 it runs deeper than their physical traits. It seems like, 0:10:03.316 --> 0:10:05.836 I mean, I really want to understand when you say 0:10:05.956 --> 0:10:09.396 we claim them piece by piece. Unpack that for me 0:10:09.436 --> 0:10:12.916 and what that means. What does it mean to claim children? 0:10:12.956 --> 0:10:14.876 And like, what does that do to our own psychology 0:10:14.956 --> 0:10:15.556 as parents? 0:10:17.156 --> 0:10:20.156 Well, I think it's super dangerous and I think it's wrongheaded, 0:10:20.876 --> 0:10:23.796 and I think it's probably really common. I remember the 0:10:23.876 --> 0:10:26.916 first time Claire saw the ocean. We were driving in 0:10:26.996 --> 0:10:30.796 San Diego and we pulled over and she ran straight 0:10:30.836 --> 0:10:35.036 for the water, and then instantly like, instead of letting 0:10:35.036 --> 0:10:38.636 that just be hers, it was like, ah, she's just 0:10:38.716 --> 0:10:42.236 like you, Edward, she's a swimmer, and it's like, well, 0:10:42.436 --> 0:10:46.196 or she's just her and she's having a great moment. 0:10:46.836 --> 0:10:51.396 And I think because uncertainty is so intolerable, and because 0:10:51.476 --> 0:10:58.876 we're narrative making machines, that it's quite common and probably 0:10:58.956 --> 0:11:04.396 misleading that we might see a kid's personality trait and 0:11:05.476 --> 0:11:09.596 decide without even knowing we're doing it. But this is 0:11:09.676 --> 0:11:13.716 because blank like either it's because you are the way 0:11:13.756 --> 0:11:15.796 you are, your husband is the way they are, they're 0:11:16.396 --> 0:11:21.236 your grandparents, something about their sibling or some moment that 0:11:21.276 --> 0:11:26.436 you observed, and so you're always like deconstructing your kid's 0:11:26.516 --> 0:11:31.836 behavior and tagging it. And I don't think that's to 0:11:31.956 --> 0:11:37.876 anybody's benefit. I think it's understandable, like we are dying 0:11:37.956 --> 0:11:43.676 to understand. We are eager to make sense of our 0:11:43.756 --> 0:11:47.316 children's moods and their behaviors and what they do that's 0:11:48.556 --> 0:11:53.796 problematic or self defeating or self sabotaging, and what they 0:11:53.876 --> 0:11:56.596 do that's spectacular that we can't wait to tell our 0:11:56.636 --> 0:12:01.916 friends they did, and kind of attribute that to people, 0:12:02.756 --> 0:12:06.316 because like, who wants to say, I don't know, Yeah, 0:12:06.436 --> 0:12:09.476 I don't know why she does that. Yeah, it's the 0:12:09.636 --> 0:12:13.796 very first thing you do is try to figure out why. 0:12:15.116 --> 0:12:17.116 When was the first time it occurred to you, Kelly 0:12:17.196 --> 0:12:21.196 that your kids were doing things or learning things that 0:12:21.236 --> 0:12:22.196 you were not a part of. 0:12:23.236 --> 0:12:26.036 So these girls of mine had this incredible babysit Her 0:12:26.076 --> 0:12:28.556 name was Sophie, and Sophie had this boyfriend, Joel, and 0:12:28.636 --> 0:12:31.476 Joel had this adorable mom. And when Sophie took care 0:12:31.516 --> 0:12:33.916 of the girls, she often took them over to Joel's 0:12:33.916 --> 0:12:37.316 house and Joel's mom was there, and the girls are adorable, 0:12:37.596 --> 0:12:40.236 and so the mom was enjoying them and giving them 0:12:40.316 --> 0:12:42.836 little cookies and taking them out for a swim and whatever. 0:12:43.316 --> 0:12:45.396 All of this is sort of unknown to me. I'm 0:12:45.436 --> 0:12:47.996 just happy that Sophie's in charge. They love her, she 0:12:48.076 --> 0:12:51.956 loves them. So it was a beautiful babysitting relationship. And 0:12:52.676 --> 0:12:54.836 fast forward like a year and a half. We're on 0:12:54.876 --> 0:12:59.036 a little family walk and this woman pulled over in 0:12:59.076 --> 0:13:02.476 her car and rolled down the window and said, Hi, Georgia, 0:13:03.676 --> 0:13:08.956 And I thought, how could you possibly know my kid? 0:13:09.596 --> 0:13:13.036 There is no way that she could know someone that 0:13:13.116 --> 0:13:16.316 I didn't introduce her to, like she's too little, she 0:13:16.356 --> 0:13:18.916 doesn't even know words. I didn't tell her, Like I'm 0:13:18.956 --> 0:13:21.156 doing everything. I know exactly what she ate, I know 0:13:21.196 --> 0:13:23.356 what she wore, I know who she talked to, I 0:13:23.396 --> 0:13:25.756 know what words she can use, I know what letters 0:13:25.756 --> 0:13:28.036 she can write, I know what books she's read. And 0:13:28.036 --> 0:13:30.396 this is probably why it's so hard to pull your 0:13:30.396 --> 0:13:32.916 hands off the wheel. There is a moment there, and 0:13:32.956 --> 0:13:36.316 that moment lasts for several years where you actually do 0:13:36.556 --> 0:13:42.116 know every single input in another person's life because you're involved, 0:13:42.196 --> 0:13:44.876 you're doing it, you're managing it, you're facilitating it. 0:13:44.916 --> 0:13:47.396 You're talking about the early years, like the first few years, the. 0:13:47.436 --> 0:13:50.996 Early early years. Yeah, and then this lady was like, hi, Georgia, 0:13:51.236 --> 0:13:53.756 and I was like, this is so weird. And I 0:13:53.796 --> 0:13:56.036 was like, Hi, I'm Georgia's mom. And I remember hearing 0:13:56.076 --> 0:13:59.556 myself say I'm Georgia's mom and thinking, oh, this is 0:14:00.316 --> 0:14:02.716 this is the beginning of this, This is the beginning 0:14:02.716 --> 0:14:05.796 of me in the world as just Georgia's mom. 0:14:06.116 --> 0:14:09.276 Yeah. And I'm assuming as your girls got older that 0:14:09.276 --> 0:14:11.596 you got more and more of these examples of how 0:14:11.636 --> 0:14:14.956 their lives were growing independently of yours. 0:14:15.316 --> 0:14:19.276 Well. I mean, it's very interesting to be told what 0:14:19.316 --> 0:14:22.236 your child can and cannot do by any number of teachers, 0:14:23.276 --> 0:14:25.956 And there's often moments of surprise there, so you're either 0:14:26.076 --> 0:14:29.756 like waiting for them to confirm all of your impressions. 0:14:30.396 --> 0:14:33.036 But if you're doing a good job, if you really 0:14:33.236 --> 0:14:37.356 have your mind wide open, you'll hear things that you 0:14:37.396 --> 0:14:39.796 think I didn't know that about her. I didn't know 0:14:39.836 --> 0:14:43.916 she loved math, or in the reverse. I remember this 0:14:44.036 --> 0:14:47.316 teacher of Georgie's in high school said George is like 0:14:47.316 --> 0:14:50.436 a great science student, like she understands everything. And I 0:14:50.516 --> 0:14:52.876 said to Georgia, God, do you love science? And she said, 0:14:52.916 --> 0:14:56.076 oh no, I don't love science. I'm just good at science. 0:14:57.156 --> 0:15:00.676 And I was like, oh right. Again, there's this like 0:15:00.916 --> 0:15:06.436 fine parsing, where your category making machine of a brain 0:15:06.636 --> 0:15:09.796 is like ough A plus B equal C, and she's like, no, 0:15:09.836 --> 0:15:10.996 apos B equals D. 0:15:12.156 --> 0:15:15.636 What did it feel like emotionally when it was revealed 0:15:15.676 --> 0:15:17.836 to you that you either didn't know something about your 0:15:17.916 --> 0:15:21.716 daughters or that the conclusion you had drawn about them 0:15:21.836 --> 0:15:24.516 was not the same conclusion someone else had drawn about them. 0:15:25.116 --> 0:15:28.876 Sometimes thrilling, sometimes it was a little moment of awe, 0:15:29.276 --> 0:15:32.036 like this is cool, like watching a great movie or 0:15:32.036 --> 0:15:35.716 reading a great book when you're surprised. Yeah, and sometimes 0:15:35.716 --> 0:15:37.796 it was maddening because I was sure that I was 0:15:37.876 --> 0:15:40.116 right and the person was wrong, and then they had 0:15:40.116 --> 0:15:41.956 some influence in their life and I didn't want that. 0:15:43.156 --> 0:15:51.396 Sometimes it was unnerving. It's a terrible feeling to think 0:15:51.476 --> 0:15:54.436 there's something important about your kid that you are not perceiving. 0:15:55.716 --> 0:16:00.156 It's terrifying, and it happens more and more as they 0:16:00.196 --> 0:16:00.676 get older. 0:16:01.076 --> 0:16:05.036 Yeah, when it came to their transition to college. And 0:16:05.396 --> 0:16:08.276 I can imagine how jarring that is in particular because, 0:16:08.316 --> 0:16:10.556 like you said, when when your kids are living under 0:16:10.556 --> 0:16:12.636 your roof, even if they don't share everything with you, 0:16:12.636 --> 0:16:15.516 you still get so much access to their lives just 0:16:15.596 --> 0:16:19.196 through your exposure, right, Like you might see them interact 0:16:19.236 --> 0:16:21.396 with their friends after school, or you might know their 0:16:21.676 --> 0:16:24.036 or you will know their calendar of activities because you're 0:16:24.036 --> 0:16:26.956 doing pickups and drop offs, right, So you at least 0:16:26.996 --> 0:16:30.156 have this illusion that you have access to a large 0:16:30.196 --> 0:16:33.236 chunk of their lives, even if some of the emotional 0:16:33.276 --> 0:16:38.396 content of their lives is being withheld from you, And 0:16:38.476 --> 0:16:41.956 so at some point you had to deal with physically 0:16:41.996 --> 0:16:44.196 separating from your kids when they went off to school. 0:16:44.756 --> 0:16:47.876 And I'm wondering if you can set the scene for 0:16:47.956 --> 0:16:50.116 me of what it was like to drop your younger 0:16:50.196 --> 0:16:53.916 daughter off for college and officially become an empty nester. 0:16:55.276 --> 0:16:59.876 Well, it's interesting. My older daughter left two years before, 0:17:00.156 --> 0:17:04.116 and when I was taking her the night before, we 0:17:04.196 --> 0:17:06.676 had gone to pick up stuff at Target or whatever. 0:17:06.796 --> 0:17:09.596 And she goes tomorrow, when you got. 0:17:09.396 --> 0:17:15.276 Me off, know me, just know me, know who I 0:17:15.316 --> 0:17:18.756 am and what my preferences are. That's basically what she was. 0:17:18.756 --> 0:17:21.996 Saying, exactly, put me first. And I was like, I 0:17:22.036 --> 0:17:25.316 get it. You don't want a scene, you don't want tears, 0:17:25.716 --> 0:17:27.876 you don't want me talking to people. Just take the 0:17:27.916 --> 0:17:30.796 stuff in, drop it off, give her a hug, and 0:17:30.836 --> 0:17:32.916 get out of there. And I was like, I got this. 0:17:33.236 --> 0:17:35.596 I can do this, And I think I did all right. 0:17:35.636 --> 0:17:36.796 I mean you'd have to ask her, but I think 0:17:36.836 --> 0:17:39.436 I did fine. So fast forward two years. I had 0:17:39.476 --> 0:17:42.756 to take Claire to University of Virginia and she is 0:17:42.836 --> 0:17:47.396 also really ready. So we had our horrible moment, like 0:17:47.476 --> 0:17:53.636 our snotty, weeping, shaking moment. Can't even talk about it. 0:17:53.676 --> 0:18:03.156 Now in the Airbnb, and I just said, do you mind, like, 0:18:03.236 --> 0:18:13.356 can I just let this all out? And basically what 0:18:13.436 --> 0:18:16.956 I was feeling is this is the part of life 0:18:16.956 --> 0:18:20.356 that I was looking forward to the most, and today 0:18:20.636 --> 0:18:24.076 is the end of it. And there will be great things, 0:18:24.236 --> 0:18:28.076 of course, so much good work to do, so many 0:18:28.116 --> 0:18:31.196 people to love and help I get it. But this 0:18:31.356 --> 0:18:35.476 is what I wanted the most, and today it's changing forever. 0:18:35.596 --> 0:18:39.516 We're never going back. And would you just mind if 0:18:39.556 --> 0:18:43.156 I had a total nervous breakdown for about five minutes 0:18:43.556 --> 0:18:45.276 and then I'll blow my nose and we'll get in 0:18:45.276 --> 0:18:48.236 that van and we'll go load up your room and 0:18:48.276 --> 0:18:50.996 I'll get out of there. And she said sure, and 0:18:51.076 --> 0:18:55.876 so they just held her and then we went. It 0:18:55.916 --> 0:18:59.436 went so fast like it you know, it's because the car, 0:18:59.676 --> 0:19:02.236 like the blinkers are on. Yeah, and when you pull up, 0:19:02.316 --> 0:19:05.036 there's a nice person with a clipboard and they're like, hi, 0:19:05.356 --> 0:19:07.796 you know, you're in room three eighteen and you have 0:19:07.876 --> 0:19:11.076 thirty eight minutes to move this car. And so the 0:19:11.076 --> 0:19:14.396 blinkers are on and somebody's got eyes on your vehicle 0:19:14.676 --> 0:19:16.596 and you're going up and down the stairs and then 0:19:16.636 --> 0:19:20.836 it's over and I was like bye, and honestly, like, 0:19:20.876 --> 0:19:22.836 I know, I probably sound like a crazy person, but 0:19:24.236 --> 0:19:27.236 I knew what was happening, and I was right. It 0:19:27.356 --> 0:19:30.236 is different. It is over, like that part is over 0:19:30.476 --> 0:19:33.636 and it's fine, like I'm gonna have a great forty years. 0:19:34.036 --> 0:19:39.196 But there's no denying that, like the big page has 0:19:39.236 --> 0:19:43.396 been turned and I'm something else now. To them, I'm 0:19:43.436 --> 0:19:47.156 something different. I mean, you stand around with a bunch 0:19:47.156 --> 0:19:52.116 of moms on the playground and someone says their mom's 0:19:52.196 --> 0:19:56.356 coming to town. The reaction is like, ooh, how long 0:19:56.516 --> 0:20:02.116 she's staying. That's most of the time. That's kind of 0:20:02.156 --> 0:20:06.076 where you end up, is that you're a slightly like 0:20:06.636 --> 0:20:10.636 I love her, but like, yeah, three nights. That's where 0:20:10.836 --> 0:20:15.796 this road is headed. I guess I couldn't help but 0:20:15.836 --> 0:20:19.316 feel it. I couldn't help but see it in its totality, 0:20:19.396 --> 0:20:24.476 and you know, like every heaving SOB was just acknowledging 0:20:24.676 --> 0:20:25.916 that this is real. 0:20:30.476 --> 0:20:32.556 We'll be back in a moment. With a slight change 0:20:32.556 --> 0:20:45.636 of plans. When Kelly Corgan's daughters moved away to college, 0:20:45.676 --> 0:20:48.676 she was eager to stay involved in their lives, but 0:20:48.756 --> 0:20:51.196 her daughters were busy getting to know their new environment 0:20:51.476 --> 0:20:55.236 and figuring things out for themselves, and so when Kelly 0:20:55.276 --> 0:20:58.636 did connect with them, she would only receive small glimpses 0:20:58.676 --> 0:20:59.516 into their lives. 0:21:00.436 --> 0:21:02.356 This is when the rubber hits the road, I think, 0:21:02.796 --> 0:21:04.436 is when your kid moves out and you don't have 0:21:04.476 --> 0:21:06.676 eyes on them anymore, so you don't have a way 0:21:06.756 --> 0:21:10.916 to know their life and their moods and their well being. 0:21:11.076 --> 0:21:13.196 You're not able to assess their well being with your 0:21:13.196 --> 0:21:16.076 own eyes. You can't hear the tone of their voice, 0:21:16.116 --> 0:21:18.076 you can't see their posture, you can't see whether they're 0:21:18.076 --> 0:21:20.436 eating or not eating, whether they went for a run 0:21:20.516 --> 0:21:23.436 or stayed in bed. It's like a big black box 0:21:23.556 --> 0:21:27.196 and all you have are these tiny conversations where at 0:21:27.236 --> 0:21:29.556 like four to twelve on Tuesday, they might be in 0:21:29.596 --> 0:21:33.276 a great mood, and at four thirty on Tuesday, long 0:21:33.316 --> 0:21:37.036 after the call is over, something horrible happens. But until 0:21:37.076 --> 0:21:39.076 you talk to them again, you're still in four twelve 0:21:39.076 --> 0:21:42.076 Tuesday mode, where you're like and people ask all the time. 0:21:42.156 --> 0:21:44.276 Wherever you go, people say how are your kids? And 0:21:44.356 --> 0:21:46.436 whatever they've told you on four to twelve on Tuesday, 0:21:46.636 --> 0:21:51.116 you're like, she's great, she's awesome. And conversely, if you 0:21:51.196 --> 0:21:55.516 catch them on nine am on Saturday morning and they're terrible. 0:21:56.476 --> 0:21:58.916 Then they are terrible until the next time you talk 0:21:58.996 --> 0:22:01.716 to them and hear the spark back in their voice. 0:22:01.996 --> 0:22:03.996 When it came to the transition to college, one thing 0:22:04.036 --> 0:22:07.676 that you wrote, Kelly is you actually were given guidance 0:22:07.836 --> 0:22:13.356 by the campus psychologist that was like, hey, parents, now's 0:22:13.396 --> 0:22:16.036 your time to back the f off right, Like there's 0:22:16.076 --> 0:22:18.116 something like that. Tell me more about that. That was 0:22:18.156 --> 0:22:20.436 so interesting to me and so shocking and like not 0:22:20.556 --> 0:22:22.596 at all what happened, for example, when I was off 0:22:22.596 --> 0:22:24.396 to college. If no one is even thinking through this 0:22:24.516 --> 0:22:27.876 lens of child development and individuation or any of that stuff. 0:22:28.036 --> 0:22:31.516 Yeah, yeah. So Claire goes to University of Virginia and 0:22:32.156 --> 0:22:35.756 the day of drop off, there was a letter sent 0:22:35.796 --> 0:22:39.156 to all the parents of the freshman class and it 0:22:39.356 --> 0:22:42.516 said some sort of nuts and bolt stuff, and then 0:22:42.556 --> 0:22:45.356 it said, here's a note from our one of the 0:22:45.356 --> 0:22:49.156 people that works in our counseling office on campus. It 0:22:49.236 --> 0:22:52.076 is not okay for you to be texting your kid 0:22:52.796 --> 0:22:56.156 multiple times every day. The best thing you could do 0:22:56.236 --> 0:22:58.836 for them is to stand back a little bit and 0:22:58.996 --> 0:23:03.716 let them get into some kind of groove. Because as 0:23:03.756 --> 0:23:07.116 soon as you say to somebody, how's it going, the 0:23:07.196 --> 0:23:09.756 true answer is I don't know yet, Like it's going 0:23:09.836 --> 0:23:12.716 to take me eight weeks to tell you how it's going. 0:23:13.316 --> 0:23:15.796 As a cognitive scientist, you're the one to confirm this. 0:23:15.956 --> 0:23:19.756 But I feel like once you label something that it 0:23:19.796 --> 0:23:23.476 takes on greater meaning, Like that language and thoughts and 0:23:23.516 --> 0:23:26.436 feelings are all kind of linked in this way that 0:23:26.476 --> 0:23:30.236 if she's if I make her say it's good, it's bad, 0:23:30.836 --> 0:23:32.796 I like it, I don't like it. How's your roommate 0:23:32.876 --> 0:23:37.756 she's okay, Then all of a sudden, that framing takes 0:23:37.796 --> 0:23:43.436 on added power to define what happens next. And that's 0:23:43.436 --> 0:23:46.916 such a mistake. And so this guy said unequivocally, leave 0:23:46.956 --> 0:23:48.956 your kids alone, let them drive. If they want to 0:23:48.996 --> 0:23:51.796 contact you, go ahead. You don't have to respond to 0:23:51.836 --> 0:23:54.276 your kid within like sixty seconds. 0:23:55.996 --> 0:23:58.436 Yeah, I'm just laughing at this moment. Thinking back to 0:23:59.636 --> 0:24:01.876 when I felt this transition. I think it was in 0:24:01.916 --> 0:24:04.236 college at some point where you know, my parents were 0:24:04.276 --> 0:24:06.476 so available to me when I was in high school 0:24:06.556 --> 0:24:08.596 and in college, I went to college close by to 0:24:08.596 --> 0:24:10.116