1 00:00:14,956 --> 00:00:15,396 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:30,476 --> 00:00:32,676 Speaker 2: I know exactly what she ate, I know what she wore, 3 00:00:32,996 --> 00:00:34,756 Speaker 2: I know who she talked to, I know what words 4 00:00:34,836 --> 00:00:37,236 Speaker 2: she can use, I know what letters she can write, 5 00:00:37,436 --> 00:00:39,796 Speaker 2: I know what books she's read. Like there's a moment there, 6 00:00:39,836 --> 00:00:42,996 Speaker 2: and that moment lasts for several years where you actually 7 00:00:43,116 --> 00:00:47,356 Speaker 2: do know every single input in another person's life. 8 00:00:48,276 --> 00:00:52,196 Speaker 1: Kelly Corrigan once knew everything about her daughters. She also 9 00:00:52,316 --> 00:00:55,436 Speaker 1: knew this would change that as her daughters got older 10 00:00:55,556 --> 00:00:58,756 Speaker 1: and became more independent, Kelly would know less and less 11 00:00:58,796 --> 00:01:02,996 Speaker 1: about their lives. But while Kelly knew this transition was inevitable, 12 00:01:03,476 --> 00:01:06,476 Speaker 1: she still felt a title wave of emotions when it 13 00:01:06,516 --> 00:01:07,316 Speaker 1: actually happened. 14 00:01:08,036 --> 00:01:13,476 Speaker 2: I alternate between this very mature acknowledgment that like, this 15 00:01:13,516 --> 00:01:16,156 Speaker 2: is how it goes, this is the relationship, this is 16 00:01:16,196 --> 00:01:18,676 Speaker 2: the job, and the job is more or less done. 17 00:01:19,316 --> 00:01:21,956 Speaker 2: And I had a lot of conversations with a lot 18 00:01:21,956 --> 00:01:26,516 Speaker 2: of friends about like, can you believe this is the 19 00:01:26,556 --> 00:01:31,156 Speaker 2: way the story goes? Wow? Wow, what an ending. 20 00:01:33,636 --> 00:01:37,476 Speaker 1: On today's show, how one woman's parenting journey went exactly 21 00:01:37,516 --> 00:01:49,956 Speaker 1: according to plan and still left her reeling I'm maya 22 00:01:50,036 --> 00:01:52,876 Speaker 1: shunker and this is a slight change of plans A 23 00:01:52,916 --> 00:01:55,316 Speaker 1: show about who we are and who we become in 24 00:01:55,396 --> 00:02:10,676 Speaker 1: the face of the big change. Adolescence is a time 25 00:02:10,796 --> 00:02:14,276 Speaker 1: of incredible change for kids and the people who care 26 00:02:14,316 --> 00:02:18,276 Speaker 1: for them. Neuroscience studies show that when we become teenagers, 27 00:02:18,516 --> 00:02:22,356 Speaker 1: our brains undergo changes that drive us towards more independence. 28 00:02:23,236 --> 00:02:26,956 Speaker 1: While this transition is considered developmentally appropriate, it can be 29 00:02:27,076 --> 00:02:31,996 Speaker 1: pretty gut wrenching for parents. Kelly writes unflinchingly about these 30 00:02:32,116 --> 00:02:36,356 Speaker 1: kinds of complicated family dynamics. Her book Lift, written as 31 00:02:36,356 --> 00:02:39,516 Speaker 1: a letter to her daughters, is about the emotional hazards 32 00:02:39,556 --> 00:02:43,316 Speaker 1: of raising children, and her memoir The Middle Place touches 33 00:02:43,356 --> 00:02:47,156 Speaker 1: on the unspoken contracts that exist between parents and their children. 34 00:02:48,236 --> 00:02:51,556 Speaker 1: She also hosts a podcast, Kelly Corrigan Wonders, where she 35 00:02:51,636 --> 00:02:55,436 Speaker 1: often talks about parenthood and family life, like her conversation 36 00:02:55,556 --> 00:02:59,716 Speaker 1: with writer Susan Orlean on empty Nesting. Parenthood has been 37 00:02:59,716 --> 00:03:02,436 Speaker 1: on my mind a lot lately. I've been seeing my 38 00:03:02,516 --> 00:03:05,356 Speaker 1: parents get older, and my husband Jimmy, and I are 39 00:03:05,396 --> 00:03:08,996 Speaker 1: wondering if, after several losses and heartbreaks, will still try 40 00:03:09,116 --> 00:03:12,876 Speaker 1: and become parents. So Kelly's story has raised some big 41 00:03:12,956 --> 00:03:15,716 Speaker 1: questions for me, like what do a parent and child 42 00:03:15,756 --> 00:03:19,556 Speaker 1: owe each other, and how does this relationship evolve over time. 43 00:03:20,596 --> 00:03:23,396 Speaker 1: Of course, we'll all have different answers to these questions. 44 00:03:23,956 --> 00:03:27,076 Speaker 1: You'll hear my own surprise at several points in this conversation. 45 00:03:27,876 --> 00:03:30,756 Speaker 1: My parents are immigrants and they raise my three siblings 46 00:03:30,756 --> 00:03:34,076 Speaker 1: and me with a mixture of Indian and American values, 47 00:03:34,476 --> 00:03:38,396 Speaker 1: which means Kelly and I have different perspectives. But regardless 48 00:03:38,396 --> 00:03:41,636 Speaker 1: of our particular views, Kelly showed me just how valuable 49 00:03:41,636 --> 00:03:44,036 Speaker 1: it can be to ask ourselves these questions in the 50 00:03:44,076 --> 00:03:48,516 Speaker 1: first place. Okay, now onto my conversation with Kelly. I 51 00:03:48,556 --> 00:03:51,276 Speaker 1: started by asking her why she wanted to have kids. 52 00:03:52,356 --> 00:03:54,436 Speaker 2: I don't think I ever had a conscious moment where 53 00:03:54,476 --> 00:03:56,316 Speaker 2: it was like, oh, I definitely want to be a mother. 54 00:03:56,916 --> 00:03:58,916 Speaker 2: I don't think I ever had a change of heart. 55 00:03:59,676 --> 00:04:02,876 Speaker 2: It was just totally woven in from the jump. And 56 00:04:02,916 --> 00:04:07,996 Speaker 2: I'm not a particularly sweet person, Like I wouldn't say 57 00:04:08,036 --> 00:04:13,996 Speaker 2: that I'm huge, nice or patient. I'm not a good cook, 58 00:04:14,036 --> 00:04:17,076 Speaker 2: I always run late, I forget a lot of things. 59 00:04:17,916 --> 00:04:20,836 Speaker 2: I am not good with forms. There's a huge bureaucratic 60 00:04:20,916 --> 00:04:23,836 Speaker 2: element to parenting that I would give myself like a 61 00:04:23,916 --> 00:04:26,556 Speaker 2: d So it wasn't that I thought I was going 62 00:04:26,636 --> 00:04:29,996 Speaker 2: to be particularly good at it in those superficial ways 63 00:04:30,036 --> 00:04:36,116 Speaker 2: of like managing a family. But what I wanted, what 64 00:04:36,236 --> 00:04:39,476 Speaker 2: I craved, what I couldn't wait to be a part of, 65 00:04:39,636 --> 00:04:45,236 Speaker 2: was the intimacy. And it is extraordinary. It is extraordinary, 66 00:04:45,316 --> 00:04:50,236 Speaker 2: Like there is not in my life experience comparable relationships 67 00:04:50,596 --> 00:04:51,916 Speaker 2: outside of the family frame. 68 00:04:54,036 --> 00:04:56,516 Speaker 1: Use the word intimacy, Kelly, and I'm trying to figure 69 00:04:56,556 --> 00:05:00,996 Speaker 1: out what that word means to you in this context. 70 00:05:01,716 --> 00:05:05,036 Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, it's interesting. When we were growing up outside 71 00:05:05,076 --> 00:05:08,996 Speaker 2: of Philadelphia, we only had one window unit air conditioner, 72 00:05:09,636 --> 00:05:11,636 Speaker 2: and in the summer, you know, it's like one hundred degrees, 73 00:05:11,676 --> 00:05:13,396 Speaker 2: it's so high you have bug bites up and down 74 00:05:13,436 --> 00:05:16,836 Speaker 2: your whole body. And one by one, my older brothers 75 00:05:16,836 --> 00:05:19,236 Speaker 2: and I would walk down the hall and go to 76 00:05:19,236 --> 00:05:21,756 Speaker 2: sleep on my parents' floor, so that when we woke 77 00:05:21,836 --> 00:05:24,356 Speaker 2: up every day in the summer, I'd have like GT's 78 00:05:24,356 --> 00:05:26,396 Speaker 2: foot in my face and Booker's foot in my belly, 79 00:05:26,476 --> 00:05:29,596 Speaker 2: and like we were just kind of in there together. 80 00:05:29,916 --> 00:05:32,716 Speaker 2: I love that, And I loved that we didn't ever 81 00:05:32,756 --> 00:05:35,196 Speaker 2: get central air conditioning. I loved it that that was 82 00:05:35,236 --> 00:05:39,076 Speaker 2: the only way was to share this air together all 83 00:05:39,156 --> 00:05:41,556 Speaker 2: night long and breathe all over each other, and you know, 84 00:05:41,636 --> 00:05:44,836 Speaker 2: people are bourbon and farting, and it's kind of hilarious 85 00:05:45,076 --> 00:05:48,756 Speaker 2: because you can only do it with so few people. Yeah, 86 00:05:48,796 --> 00:05:50,716 Speaker 2: you know, anything that you can only do with like 87 00:05:50,756 --> 00:05:54,236 Speaker 2: a handful of people your whole life, Like, that's just 88 00:05:54,276 --> 00:05:55,476 Speaker 2: got to be significant. 89 00:05:55,956 --> 00:05:56,196 Speaker 3: Yeah. 90 00:05:56,236 --> 00:05:59,076 Speaker 1: I so resonate with this intimacy concept, and I think 91 00:05:59,156 --> 00:06:02,756 Speaker 1: until now I hadn't really thought about the physical component 92 00:06:02,796 --> 00:06:05,396 Speaker 1: of just being present with one another in all of 93 00:06:05,436 --> 00:06:09,836 Speaker 1: these bland moments that are totally lacking in signify, except 94 00:06:09,836 --> 00:06:12,196 Speaker 1: in the aggregate, they add up to a kind of 95 00:06:12,236 --> 00:06:16,196 Speaker 1: familiarity that we just don't experience with anybody else when 96 00:06:16,196 --> 00:06:19,516 Speaker 1: we're growing up. And I remember I was absolutely the 97 00:06:19,636 --> 00:06:24,516 Speaker 1: kid that was insatiable when it came to physical affection 98 00:06:24,796 --> 00:06:27,436 Speaker 1: and that kind of physical closeness and proximity. So I'm 99 00:06:27,436 --> 00:06:30,116 Speaker 1: just thinking back to when I remember in seventh grade, 100 00:06:30,196 --> 00:06:32,916 Speaker 1: my family of six we went on a cruise and 101 00:06:32,956 --> 00:06:35,596 Speaker 1: it was like the most exciting thing that my family 102 00:06:35,636 --> 00:06:36,756 Speaker 1: was ever to do. We went on one of these 103 00:06:36,796 --> 00:06:40,596 Speaker 1: like whatever carnival cruises or something, and my parents treated 104 00:06:40,596 --> 00:06:43,796 Speaker 1: themselves to like the nice view of the ocean room 105 00:06:44,076 --> 00:06:47,196 Speaker 1: and us. Four kids were put into this little box 106 00:06:47,316 --> 00:06:50,476 Speaker 1: with two sets of bunk beds, and that was my 107 00:06:50,716 --> 00:06:54,236 Speaker 1: favorite thing in the whole world. Like we still weren't 108 00:06:54,276 --> 00:06:57,236 Speaker 1: close enough in that little box together, because I just 109 00:06:57,276 --> 00:07:01,676 Speaker 1: found it intoxicating to be so close to these people 110 00:07:02,636 --> 00:07:03,276 Speaker 1: who I loved. 111 00:07:04,116 --> 00:07:04,996 Speaker 2: Yes, exactly. 112 00:07:05,596 --> 00:07:08,476 Speaker 1: So you ended up having two daughters, Georgia and Claire, 113 00:07:09,236 --> 00:07:12,396 Speaker 1: And I'm curious to know whether in the early years 114 00:07:12,476 --> 00:07:15,156 Speaker 1: your expectations of mom lined up with reality. 115 00:07:15,716 --> 00:07:18,636 Speaker 2: So I mean it went off the rails fairly quickly 116 00:07:18,956 --> 00:07:22,836 Speaker 2: because when Claire was one and Georgia was two, I 117 00:07:22,916 --> 00:07:26,156 Speaker 2: got diagnosed with stage three cancer and I was in chemotherapy, 118 00:07:26,596 --> 00:07:30,796 Speaker 2: and so everything was up in the air. I did surgery, 119 00:07:30,836 --> 00:07:33,076 Speaker 2: then I did another surgery that I had my ovaries removed. 120 00:07:33,156 --> 00:07:35,516 Speaker 2: Then I did a whole nother year of chemotherapy, and 121 00:07:35,556 --> 00:07:38,396 Speaker 2: then it was like really finally over about maybe eighteen 122 00:07:38,396 --> 00:07:41,956 Speaker 2: months after it started. And then you have to come 123 00:07:42,156 --> 00:07:45,636 Speaker 2: all the way back down into your life again. And 124 00:07:45,676 --> 00:07:49,036 Speaker 2: then it did start to feel like this is what 125 00:07:49,116 --> 00:07:52,476 Speaker 2: I wanted in particular. Two things. One is my husband 126 00:07:52,596 --> 00:07:55,476 Speaker 2: Edward got up super early. He left at six o'clock 127 00:07:55,556 --> 00:07:58,796 Speaker 2: and then at six ' oh one when the door closed, 128 00:07:59,196 --> 00:08:01,476 Speaker 2: Claire would pad over and jump in on one side, 129 00:08:01,756 --> 00:08:04,196 Speaker 2: and at six point thirty Georgia would pad over and 130 00:08:04,236 --> 00:08:06,636 Speaker 2: get in on the other side. And there was nowhere 131 00:08:06,636 --> 00:08:09,436 Speaker 2: we had to be, and they were just on me. 132 00:08:10,156 --> 00:08:13,716 Speaker 2: And I remember thinking, I know this is special. I 133 00:08:13,796 --> 00:08:16,796 Speaker 2: know this will end. This is what I wanted, this 134 00:08:16,876 --> 00:08:19,796 Speaker 2: is what I didn't want to miss right now, this 135 00:08:19,956 --> 00:08:24,356 Speaker 2: feeling I had no pressures on me, they had no preschool, 136 00:08:25,196 --> 00:08:28,436 Speaker 2: and oh god, it was so great. And then the 137 00:08:28,476 --> 00:08:32,316 Speaker 2: other thing is all these super surprising moments, like a 138 00:08:32,436 --> 00:08:38,836 Speaker 2: crazy surprising moment was Georgia looking at the mail and saying, 139 00:08:38,876 --> 00:08:40,916 Speaker 2: what is this And I was like, oh my god, 140 00:08:41,556 --> 00:08:44,916 Speaker 2: it's your last name. That's your last name, and she 141 00:08:45,116 --> 00:08:47,316 Speaker 2: was like, what's a last name. I'm like, oh my god, 142 00:08:47,396 --> 00:08:49,716 Speaker 2: this is I just could not have seen this coming, Like, 143 00:08:49,756 --> 00:08:52,796 Speaker 2: of course someone has to tell you that there's such 144 00:08:52,796 --> 00:08:54,836 Speaker 2: a thing as a last name, and this is what 145 00:08:54,876 --> 00:08:57,036 Speaker 2: yours is, and this is what the letters are, and 146 00:08:57,076 --> 00:08:58,636 Speaker 2: this is the order you write them in, and this 147 00:08:58,716 --> 00:09:02,316 Speaker 2: is how you do it. And so I remember writing 148 00:09:02,316 --> 00:09:06,396 Speaker 2: in my journal that night I taught Georgia her last name. 149 00:09:06,436 --> 00:09:10,996 Speaker 1: Today, you wrote in the New York Time that before 150 00:09:11,076 --> 00:09:14,316 Speaker 1: our children become themselves, when they are more physical than 151 00:09:14,396 --> 00:09:19,076 Speaker 1: intellectual and emotional, we claim them piece by piece. The 152 00:09:19,116 --> 00:09:21,636 Speaker 1: way he sits like his dad, the furrow of her 153 00:09:21,676 --> 00:09:25,476 Speaker 1: brow so much like her mom's, her flat feet, his 154 00:09:25,556 --> 00:09:29,556 Speaker 1: luscious eyelashes just like grandpa's. I wonder, how did you 155 00:09:29,676 --> 00:09:33,996 Speaker 1: quote claim Georgia and Claire? What was your version of this? 156 00:09:34,876 --> 00:09:38,636 Speaker 2: Georgia makes this very funny face when she's reading or concentrating, 157 00:09:39,316 --> 00:09:42,956 Speaker 2: that sort of looks like she's angry, and it is 158 00:09:43,036 --> 00:09:46,596 Speaker 2: exactly what Edward looks like when he's concentrating. So this 159 00:09:46,636 --> 00:09:50,036 Speaker 2: little knot in her brow is Edward's. 160 00:09:52,076 --> 00:09:56,476 Speaker 1: It feels like this idea of claiming our kids, I mean, 161 00:09:56,556 --> 00:10:00,596 Speaker 1: it runs deeper than their physical traits. It seems like, 162 00:10:03,316 --> 00:10:05,836 Speaker 1: I mean, I really want to understand when you say 163 00:10:05,956 --> 00:10:09,396 Speaker 1: we claim them piece by piece. Unpack that for me 164 00:10:09,436 --> 00:10:12,916 Speaker 1: and what that means. What does it mean to claim children? 165 00:10:12,956 --> 00:10:14,876 Speaker 1: And like, what does that do to our own psychology 166 00:10:14,956 --> 00:10:15,556 Speaker 1: as parents? 167 00:10:17,156 --> 00:10:20,156 Speaker 2: Well, I think it's super dangerous and I think it's wrongheaded, 168 00:10:20,876 --> 00:10:23,796 Speaker 2: and I think it's probably really common. I remember the 169 00:10:23,876 --> 00:10:26,916 Speaker 2: first time Claire saw the ocean. We were driving in 170 00:10:26,996 --> 00:10:30,796 Speaker 2: San Diego and we pulled over and she ran straight 171 00:10:30,836 --> 00:10:35,036 Speaker 2: for the water, and then instantly like, instead of letting 172 00:10:35,036 --> 00:10:38,636 Speaker 2: that just be hers, it was like, ah, she's just 173 00:10:38,716 --> 00:10:42,236 Speaker 2: like you, Edward, she's a swimmer, and it's like, well, 174 00:10:42,436 --> 00:10:46,196 Speaker 2: or she's just her and she's having a great moment. 175 00:10:46,836 --> 00:10:51,396 Speaker 2: And I think because uncertainty is so intolerable, and because 176 00:10:51,476 --> 00:10:58,876 Speaker 2: we're narrative making machines, that it's quite common and probably 177 00:10:58,956 --> 00:11:04,396 Speaker 2: misleading that we might see a kid's personality trait and 178 00:11:05,476 --> 00:11:09,596 Speaker 2: decide without even knowing we're doing it. But this is 179 00:11:09,676 --> 00:11:13,716 Speaker 2: because blank like either it's because you are the way 180 00:11:13,756 --> 00:11:15,796 Speaker 2: you are, your husband is the way they are, they're 181 00:11:16,396 --> 00:11:21,236 Speaker 2: your grandparents, something about their sibling or some moment that 182 00:11:21,276 --> 00:11:26,436 Speaker 2: you observed, and so you're always like deconstructing your kid's 183 00:11:26,516 --> 00:11:31,836 Speaker 2: behavior and tagging it. And I don't think that's to 184 00:11:31,956 --> 00:11:37,876 Speaker 2: anybody's benefit. I think it's understandable, like we are dying 185 00:11:37,956 --> 00:11:43,676 Speaker 2: to understand. We are eager to make sense of our 186 00:11:43,756 --> 00:11:47,316 Speaker 2: children's moods and their behaviors and what they do that's 187 00:11:48,556 --> 00:11:53,796 Speaker 2: problematic or self defeating or self sabotaging, and what they 188 00:11:53,876 --> 00:11:56,596 Speaker 2: do that's spectacular that we can't wait to tell our 189 00:11:56,636 --> 00:12:01,916 Speaker 2: friends they did, and kind of attribute that to people, 190 00:12:02,756 --> 00:12:06,316 Speaker 2: because like, who wants to say, I don't know, Yeah, 191 00:12:06,436 --> 00:12:09,476 Speaker 2: I don't know why she does that. Yeah, it's the 192 00:12:09,636 --> 00:12:13,796 Speaker 2: very first thing you do is try to figure out why. 193 00:12:15,116 --> 00:12:17,116 Speaker 1: When was the first time it occurred to you, Kelly 194 00:12:17,196 --> 00:12:21,196 Speaker 1: that your kids were doing things or learning things that 195 00:12:21,236 --> 00:12:22,196 Speaker 1: you were not a part of. 196 00:12:23,236 --> 00:12:26,036 Speaker 2: So these girls of mine had this incredible babysit Her 197 00:12:26,076 --> 00:12:28,556 Speaker 2: name was Sophie, and Sophie had this boyfriend, Joel, and 198 00:12:28,636 --> 00:12:31,476 Speaker 2: Joel had this adorable mom. And when Sophie took care 199 00:12:31,516 --> 00:12:33,916 Speaker 2: of the girls, she often took them over to Joel's 200 00:12:33,916 --> 00:12:37,316 Speaker 2: house and Joel's mom was there, and the girls are adorable, 201 00:12:37,596 --> 00:12:40,236 Speaker 2: and so the mom was enjoying them and giving them 202 00:12:40,316 --> 00:12:42,836 Speaker 2: little cookies and taking them out for a swim and whatever. 203 00:12:43,316 --> 00:12:45,396 Speaker 2: All of this is sort of unknown to me. I'm 204 00:12:45,436 --> 00:12:47,996 Speaker 2: just happy that Sophie's in charge. They love her, she 205 00:12:48,076 --> 00:12:51,956 Speaker 2: loves them. So it was a beautiful babysitting relationship. And 206 00:12:52,676 --> 00:12:54,836 Speaker 2: fast forward like a year and a half. We're on 207 00:12:54,876 --> 00:12:59,036 Speaker 2: a little family walk and this woman pulled over in 208 00:12:59,076 --> 00:13:02,476 Speaker 2: her car and rolled down the window and said, Hi, Georgia, 209 00:13:03,676 --> 00:13:08,956 Speaker 2: And I thought, how could you possibly know my kid? 210 00:13:09,596 --> 00:13:13,036 Speaker 2: There is no way that she could know someone that 211 00:13:13,116 --> 00:13:16,316 Speaker 2: I didn't introduce her to, like she's too little, she 212 00:13:16,356 --> 00:13:18,916 Speaker 2: doesn't even know words. I didn't tell her, Like I'm 213 00:13:18,956 --> 00:13:21,156 Speaker 2: doing everything. I know exactly what she ate, I know 214 00:13:21,196 --> 00:13:23,356 Speaker 2: what she wore, I know who she talked to, I 215 00:13:23,396 --> 00:13:25,756 Speaker 2: know what words she can use, I know what letters 216 00:13:25,756 --> 00:13:28,036 Speaker 2: she can write, I know what books she's read. And 217 00:13:28,036 --> 00:13:30,396 Speaker 2: this is probably why it's so hard to pull your 218 00:13:30,396 --> 00:13:32,916 Speaker 2: hands off the wheel. There is a moment there, and 219 00:13:32,956 --> 00:13:36,316 Speaker 2: that moment lasts for several years where you actually do 220 00:13:36,556 --> 00:13:42,116 Speaker 2: know every single input in another person's life because you're involved, 221 00:13:42,196 --> 00:13:44,876 Speaker 2: you're doing it, you're managing it, you're facilitating it. 222 00:13:44,916 --> 00:13:47,396 Speaker 1: You're talking about the early years, like the first few years, the. 223 00:13:47,436 --> 00:13:50,996 Speaker 2: Early early years. Yeah, and then this lady was like, hi, Georgia, 224 00:13:51,236 --> 00:13:53,756 Speaker 2: and I was like, this is so weird. And I 225 00:13:53,796 --> 00:13:56,036 Speaker 2: was like, Hi, I'm Georgia's mom. And I remember hearing 226 00:13:56,076 --> 00:13:59,556 Speaker 2: myself say I'm Georgia's mom and thinking, oh, this is 227 00:14:00,316 --> 00:14:02,716 Speaker 2: this is the beginning of this, This is the beginning 228 00:14:02,716 --> 00:14:05,796 Speaker 2: of me in the world as just Georgia's mom. 229 00:14:06,116 --> 00:14:09,276 Speaker 1: Yeah. And I'm assuming as your girls got older that 230 00:14:09,276 --> 00:14:11,596 Speaker 1: you got more and more of these examples of how 231 00:14:11,636 --> 00:14:14,956 Speaker 1: their lives were growing independently of yours. 232 00:14:15,316 --> 00:14:19,276 Speaker 2: Well. I mean, it's very interesting to be told what 233 00:14:19,316 --> 00:14:22,236 Speaker 2: your child can and cannot do by any number of teachers, 234 00:14:23,276 --> 00:14:25,956 Speaker 2: And there's often moments of surprise there, so you're either 235 00:14:26,076 --> 00:14:29,756 Speaker 2: like waiting for them to confirm all of your impressions. 236 00:14:30,396 --> 00:14:33,036 Speaker 2: But if you're doing a good job, if you really 237 00:14:33,236 --> 00:14:37,356 Speaker 2: have your mind wide open, you'll hear things that you 238 00:14:37,396 --> 00:14:39,796 Speaker 2: think I didn't know that about her. I didn't know 239 00:14:39,836 --> 00:14:43,916 Speaker 2: she loved math, or in the reverse. I remember this 240 00:14:44,036 --> 00:14:47,316 Speaker 2: teacher of Georgie's in high school said George is like 241 00:14:47,316 --> 00:14:50,436 Speaker 2: a great science student, like she understands everything. And I 242 00:14:50,516 --> 00:14:52,876 Speaker 2: said to Georgia, God, do you love science? And she said, 243 00:14:52,916 --> 00:14:56,076 Speaker 2: oh no, I don't love science. I'm just good at science. 244 00:14:57,156 --> 00:15:00,676 Speaker 2: And I was like, oh right. Again, there's this like 245 00:15:00,916 --> 00:15:06,436 Speaker 2: fine parsing, where your category making machine of a brain 246 00:15:06,636 --> 00:15:09,796 Speaker 2: is like ough A plus B equal C, and she's like, no, 247 00:15:09,836 --> 00:15:10,996 Speaker 2: apos B equals D. 248 00:15:12,156 --> 00:15:15,636 Speaker 1: What did it feel like emotionally when it was revealed 249 00:15:15,676 --> 00:15:17,836 Speaker 1: to you that you either didn't know something about your 250 00:15:17,916 --> 00:15:21,716 Speaker 1: daughters or that the conclusion you had drawn about them 251 00:15:21,836 --> 00:15:24,516 Speaker 1: was not the same conclusion someone else had drawn about them. 252 00:15:25,116 --> 00:15:28,876 Speaker 2: Sometimes thrilling, sometimes it was a little moment of awe, 253 00:15:29,276 --> 00:15:32,036 Speaker 2: like this is cool, like watching a great movie or 254 00:15:32,036 --> 00:15:35,716 Speaker 2: reading a great book when you're surprised. Yeah, and sometimes 255 00:15:35,716 --> 00:15:37,796 Speaker 2: it was maddening because I was sure that I was 256 00:15:37,876 --> 00:15:40,116 Speaker 2: right and the person was wrong, and then they had 257 00:15:40,116 --> 00:15:41,956 Speaker 2: some influence in their life and I didn't want that. 258 00:15:43,156 --> 00:15:51,396 Speaker 2: Sometimes it was unnerving. It's a terrible feeling to think 259 00:15:51,476 --> 00:15:54,436 Speaker 2: there's something important about your kid that you are not perceiving. 260 00:15:55,716 --> 00:16:00,156 Speaker 2: It's terrifying, and it happens more and more as they 261 00:16:00,196 --> 00:16:00,676 Speaker 2: get older. 262 00:16:01,076 --> 00:16:05,036 Speaker 1: Yeah, when it came to their transition to college. And 263 00:16:05,396 --> 00:16:08,276 Speaker 1: I can imagine how jarring that is in particular because, 264 00:16:08,316 --> 00:16:10,556 Speaker 1: like you said, when when your kids are living under 265 00:16:10,556 --> 00:16:12,636 Speaker 1: your roof, even if they don't share everything with you, 266 00:16:12,636 --> 00:16:15,516 Speaker 1: you still get so much access to their lives just 267 00:16:15,596 --> 00:16:19,196 Speaker 1: through your exposure, right, Like you might see them interact 268 00:16:19,236 --> 00:16:21,396 Speaker 1: with their friends after school, or you might know their 269 00:16:21,676 --> 00:16:24,036 Speaker 1: or you will know their calendar of activities because you're 270 00:16:24,036 --> 00:16:26,956 Speaker 1: doing pickups and drop offs, right, So you at least 271 00:16:26,996 --> 00:16:30,156 Speaker 1: have this illusion that you have access to a large 272 00:16:30,196 --> 00:16:33,236 Speaker 1: chunk of their lives, even if some of the emotional 273 00:16:33,276 --> 00:16:38,396 Speaker 1: content of their lives is being withheld from you, And 274 00:16:38,476 --> 00:16:41,956 Speaker 1: so at some point you had to deal with physically 275 00:16:41,996 --> 00:16:44,196 Speaker 1: separating from your kids when they went off to school. 276 00:16:44,756 --> 00:16:47,876 Speaker 1: And I'm wondering if you can set the scene for 277 00:16:47,956 --> 00:16:50,116 Speaker 1: me of what it was like to drop your younger 278 00:16:50,196 --> 00:16:53,916 Speaker 1: daughter off for college and officially become an empty nester. 279 00:16:55,276 --> 00:16:59,876 Speaker 2: Well, it's interesting. My older daughter left two years before, 280 00:17:00,156 --> 00:17:04,116 Speaker 2: and when I was taking her the night before, we 281 00:17:04,196 --> 00:17:06,676 Speaker 2: had gone to pick up stuff at Target or whatever. 282 00:17:06,796 --> 00:17:09,596 Speaker 2: And she goes tomorrow, when you got. 283 00:17:09,396 --> 00:17:15,276 Speaker 1: Me off, know me, just know me, know who I 284 00:17:15,316 --> 00:17:18,756 Speaker 1: am and what my preferences are. That's basically what she was. 285 00:17:18,756 --> 00:17:21,996 Speaker 2: Saying, exactly, put me first. And I was like, I 286 00:17:22,036 --> 00:17:25,316 Speaker 2: get it. You don't want a scene, you don't want tears, 287 00:17:25,716 --> 00:17:27,876 Speaker 2: you don't want me talking to people. Just take the 288 00:17:27,916 --> 00:17:30,796 Speaker 2: stuff in, drop it off, give her a hug, and 289 00:17:30,836 --> 00:17:32,916 Speaker 2: get out of there. And I was like, I got this. 290 00:17:33,236 --> 00:17:35,596 Speaker 2: I can do this, And I think I did all right. 291 00:17:35,636 --> 00:17:36,796 Speaker 2: I mean you'd have to ask her, but I think 292 00:17:36,836 --> 00:17:39,436 Speaker 2: I did fine. So fast forward two years. I had 293 00:17:39,476 --> 00:17:42,756 Speaker 2: to take Claire to University of Virginia and she is 294 00:17:42,836 --> 00:17:47,396 Speaker 2: also really ready. So we had our horrible moment, like 295 00:17:47,476 --> 00:17:53,636 Speaker 2: our snotty, weeping, shaking moment. Can't even talk about it. 296 00:17:53,676 --> 00:18:03,156 Speaker 2: Now in the Airbnb, and I just said, do you mind, like, 297 00:18:03,236 --> 00:18:13,356 Speaker 2: can I just let this all out? And basically what 298 00:18:13,436 --> 00:18:16,956 Speaker 2: I was feeling is this is the part of life 299 00:18:16,956 --> 00:18:20,356 Speaker 2: that I was looking forward to the most, and today 300 00:18:20,636 --> 00:18:24,076 Speaker 2: is the end of it. And there will be great things, 301 00:18:24,236 --> 00:18:28,076 Speaker 2: of course, so much good work to do, so many 302 00:18:28,116 --> 00:18:31,196 Speaker 2: people to love and help I get it. But this 303 00:18:31,356 --> 00:18:35,476 Speaker 2: is what I wanted the most, and today it's changing forever. 304 00:18:35,596 --> 00:18:39,516 Speaker 2: We're never going back. And would you just mind if 305 00:18:39,556 --> 00:18:43,156 Speaker 2: I had a total nervous breakdown for about five minutes 306 00:18:43,556 --> 00:18:45,276 Speaker 2: and then I'll blow my nose and we'll get in 307 00:18:45,276 --> 00:18:48,236 Speaker 2: that van and we'll go load up your room and 308 00:18:48,276 --> 00:18:50,996 Speaker 2: I'll get out of there. And she said sure, and 309 00:18:51,076 --> 00:18:55,876 Speaker 2: so they just held her and then we went. It 310 00:18:55,916 --> 00:18:59,436 Speaker 2: went so fast like it you know, it's because the car, 311 00:18:59,676 --> 00:19:02,236 Speaker 2: like the blinkers are on. Yeah, and when you pull up, 312 00:19:02,316 --> 00:19:05,036 Speaker 2: there's a nice person with a clipboard and they're like, hi, 313 00:19:05,356 --> 00:19:07,796 Speaker 2: you know, you're in room three eighteen and you have 314 00:19:07,876 --> 00:19:11,076 Speaker 2: thirty eight minutes to move this car. And so the 315 00:19:11,076 --> 00:19:14,396 Speaker 2: blinkers are on and somebody's got eyes on your vehicle 316 00:19:14,676 --> 00:19:16,596 Speaker 2: and you're going up and down the stairs and then 317 00:19:16,636 --> 00:19:20,836 Speaker 2: it's over and I was like bye, and honestly, like, 318 00:19:20,876 --> 00:19:22,836 Speaker 2: I know, I probably sound like a crazy person, but 319 00:19:24,236 --> 00:19:27,236 Speaker 2: I knew what was happening, and I was right. It 320 00:19:27,356 --> 00:19:30,236 Speaker 2: is different. It is over, like that part is over 321 00:19:30,476 --> 00:19:33,636 Speaker 2: and it's fine, like I'm gonna have a great forty years. 322 00:19:34,036 --> 00:19:39,196 Speaker 2: But there's no denying that, like the big page has 323 00:19:39,236 --> 00:19:43,396 Speaker 2: been turned and I'm something else now. To them, I'm 324 00:19:43,436 --> 00:19:47,156 Speaker 2: something different. I mean, you stand around with a bunch 325 00:19:47,156 --> 00:19:52,116 Speaker 2: of moms on the playground and someone says their mom's 326 00:19:52,196 --> 00:19:56,356 Speaker 2: coming to town. The reaction is like, ooh, how long 327 00:19:56,516 --> 00:20:02,116 Speaker 2: she's staying. That's most of the time. That's kind of 328 00:20:02,156 --> 00:20:06,076 Speaker 2: where you end up, is that you're a slightly like 329 00:20:06,636 --> 00:20:10,636 Speaker 2: I love her, but like, yeah, three nights. That's where 330 00:20:10,836 --> 00:20:15,796 Speaker 2: this road is headed. I guess I couldn't help but 331 00:20:15,836 --> 00:20:19,316 Speaker 2: feel it. I couldn't help but see it in its totality, 332 00:20:19,396 --> 00:20:24,476 Speaker 2: and you know, like every heaving SOB was just acknowledging 333 00:20:24,676 --> 00:20:25,916 Speaker 2: that this is real. 334 00:20:30,476 --> 00:20:32,556 Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment. With a slight change 335 00:20:32,556 --> 00:20:45,636 Speaker 1: of plans. When Kelly Corgan's daughters moved away to college, 336 00:20:45,676 --> 00:20:48,676 Speaker 1: she was eager to stay involved in their lives, but 337 00:20:48,756 --> 00:20:51,196 Speaker 1: her daughters were busy getting to know their new environment 338 00:20:51,476 --> 00:20:55,236 Speaker 1: and figuring things out for themselves, and so when Kelly 339 00:20:55,276 --> 00:20:58,636 Speaker 1: did connect with them, she would only receive small glimpses 340 00:20:58,676 --> 00:20:59,516 Speaker 1: into their lives. 341 00:21:00,436 --> 00:21:02,356 Speaker 2: This is when the rubber hits the road, I think, 342 00:21:02,796 --> 00:21:04,436 Speaker 2: is when your kid moves out and you don't have 343 00:21:04,476 --> 00:21:06,676 Speaker 2: eyes on them anymore, so you don't have a way 344 00:21:06,756 --> 00:21:10,916 Speaker 2: to know their life and their moods and their well being. 345 00:21:11,076 --> 00:21:13,196 Speaker 2: You're not able to assess their well being with your 346 00:21:13,196 --> 00:21:16,076 Speaker 2: own eyes. You can't hear the tone of their voice, 347 00:21:16,116 --> 00:21:18,076 Speaker 2: you can't see their posture, you can't see whether they're 348 00:21:18,076 --> 00:21:20,436 Speaker 2: eating or not eating, whether they went for a run 349 00:21:20,516 --> 00:21:23,436 Speaker 2: or stayed in bed. It's like a big black box 350 00:21:23,556 --> 00:21:27,196 Speaker 2: and all you have are these tiny conversations where at 351 00:21:27,236 --> 00:21:29,556 Speaker 2: like four to twelve on Tuesday, they might be in 352 00:21:29,596 --> 00:21:33,276 Speaker 2: a great mood, and at four thirty on Tuesday, long 353 00:21:33,316 --> 00:21:37,036 Speaker 2: after the call is over, something horrible happens. But until 354 00:21:37,076 --> 00:21:39,076 Speaker 2: you talk to them again, you're still in four twelve 355 00:21:39,076 --> 00:21:42,076 Speaker 2: Tuesday mode, where you're like and people ask all the time. 356 00:21:42,156 --> 00:21:44,276 Speaker 2: Wherever you go, people say how are your kids? And 357 00:21:44,356 --> 00:21:46,436 Speaker 2: whatever they've told you on four to twelve on Tuesday, 358 00:21:46,636 --> 00:21:51,116 Speaker 2: you're like, she's great, she's awesome. And conversely, if you 359 00:21:51,196 --> 00:21:55,516 Speaker 2: catch them on nine am on Saturday morning and they're terrible. 360 00:21:56,476 --> 00:21:58,916 Speaker 2: Then they are terrible until the next time you talk 361 00:21:58,996 --> 00:22:01,716 Speaker 2: to them and hear the spark back in their voice. 362 00:22:01,996 --> 00:22:03,996 Speaker 1: When it came to the transition to college, one thing 363 00:22:04,036 --> 00:22:07,676 Speaker 1: that you wrote, Kelly is you actually were given guidance 364 00:22:07,836 --> 00:22:13,356 Speaker 1: by the campus psychologist that was like, hey, parents, now's 365 00:22:13,396 --> 00:22:16,036 Speaker 1: your time to back the f off right, Like there's 366 00:22:16,076 --> 00:22:18,116 Speaker 1: something like that. Tell me more about that. That was 367 00:22:18,156 --> 00:22:20,436 Speaker 1: so interesting to me and so shocking and like not 368 00:22:20,556 --> 00:22:22,596 Speaker 1: at all what happened, for example, when I was off 369 00:22:22,596 --> 00:22:24,396 Speaker 1: to college. If no one is even thinking through this 370 00:22:24,516 --> 00:22:27,876 Speaker 1: lens of child development and individuation or any of that stuff. 371 00:22:28,036 --> 00:22:31,516 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. So Claire goes to University of Virginia and 372 00:22:32,156 --> 00:22:35,756 Speaker 2: the day of drop off, there was a letter sent 373 00:22:35,796 --> 00:22:39,156 Speaker 2: to all the parents of the freshman class and it 374 00:22:39,356 --> 00:22:42,516 Speaker 2: said some sort of nuts and bolt stuff, and then 375 00:22:42,556 --> 00:22:45,356 Speaker 2: it said, here's a note from our one of the 376 00:22:45,356 --> 00:22:49,156 Speaker 2: people that works in our counseling office on campus. It 377 00:22:49,236 --> 00:22:52,076 Speaker 2: is not okay for you to be texting your kid 378 00:22:52,796 --> 00:22:56,156 Speaker 2: multiple times every day. The best thing you could do 379 00:22:56,236 --> 00:22:58,836 Speaker 2: for them is to stand back a little bit and 380 00:22:58,996 --> 00:23:03,716 Speaker 2: let them get into some kind of groove. Because as 381 00:23:03,756 --> 00:23:07,116 Speaker 2: soon as you say to somebody, how's it going, the 382 00:23:07,196 --> 00:23:09,756 Speaker 2: true answer is I don't know yet, Like it's going 383 00:23:09,836 --> 00:23:12,716 Speaker 2: to take me eight weeks to tell you how it's going. 384 00:23:13,316 --> 00:23:15,796 Speaker 2: As a cognitive scientist, you're the one to confirm this. 385 00:23:15,956 --> 00:23:19,756 Speaker 2: But I feel like once you label something that it 386 00:23:19,796 --> 00:23:23,476 Speaker 2: takes on greater meaning, Like that language and thoughts and 387 00:23:23,516 --> 00:23:26,436 Speaker 2: feelings are all kind of linked in this way that 388 00:23:26,476 --> 00:23:30,236 Speaker 2: if she's if I make her say it's good, it's bad, 389 00:23:30,836 --> 00:23:32,796 Speaker 2: I like it, I don't like it. How's your roommate 390 00:23:32,876 --> 00:23:37,756 Speaker 2: she's okay, Then all of a sudden, that framing takes 391 00:23:37,796 --> 00:23:43,436 Speaker 2: on added power to define what happens next. And that's 392 00:23:43,436 --> 00:23:46,916 Speaker 2: such a mistake. And so this guy said unequivocally, leave 393 00:23:46,956 --> 00:23:48,956 Speaker 2: your kids alone, let them drive. If they want to 394 00:23:48,996 --> 00:23:51,796 Speaker 2: contact you, go ahead. You don't have to respond to 395 00:23:51,836 --> 00:23:54,276 Speaker 2: your kid within like sixty seconds. 396 00:23:55,996 --> 00:23:58,436 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm just laughing at this moment. Thinking back to 397 00:23:59,636 --> 00:24:01,876 Speaker 1: when I felt this transition. I think it was in 398 00:24:01,916 --> 00:24:04,236 Speaker 1: college at some point where you know, my parents were 399 00:24:04,276 --> 00:24:06,476 Speaker 1: so available to me when I was in high school 400 00:24:06,556 --> 00:24:08,596 Speaker 1: and in college, I went to college close by to 401 00:24:08,596 --> 00:24:10,116 Speaker 1: where they lived, so i'd still see them a bunch, 402 00:24:10,156 --> 00:24:12,316 Speaker 1: But I remember I would call my mom or dad 403 00:24:12,316 --> 00:24:14,916 Speaker 1: and they were just too busy for me. My Mom's like, 404 00:24:15,036 --> 00:24:17,916 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I'm helping people get green cards to study 405 00:24:17,916 --> 00:24:20,076 Speaker 1: in this country. And my dad's like, I'm in the 406 00:24:20,156 --> 00:24:22,636 Speaker 1: middle of the physics equation, you know. And I just 407 00:24:22,676 --> 00:24:26,076 Speaker 1: remember thinking it was actually amazing in that moment to 408 00:24:26,196 --> 00:24:29,796 Speaker 1: feel like a little bit of that lifeline was cut off, 409 00:24:29,836 --> 00:24:32,916 Speaker 1: because it meant that I was on my own a bit, right, 410 00:24:32,916 --> 00:24:34,996 Speaker 1: and I just had to kind of figure stuff out myself. 411 00:24:35,036 --> 00:24:37,956 Speaker 1: And I never really thought about that until this moment, 412 00:24:38,316 --> 00:24:40,676 Speaker 1: And now I'm realizing that was probably quite helpful for 413 00:24:40,796 --> 00:24:42,836 Speaker 1: my development, that they had their own thing. 414 00:24:43,516 --> 00:24:46,876 Speaker 2: Oh, it's phenomenal, And this is a huge new thing 415 00:24:46,956 --> 00:24:48,556 Speaker 2: for me that I'm trying to get my head around 416 00:24:48,956 --> 00:24:51,636 Speaker 2: right this second, Like something new is beginning now and 417 00:24:51,676 --> 00:24:55,396 Speaker 2: I can make it great. Like I'm totally I love Edward, 418 00:24:55,836 --> 00:24:59,876 Speaker 2: I love my work. We're starting new things. I love novelty. 419 00:25:00,556 --> 00:25:03,436 Speaker 2: I'm learning, like everything I know how to put this 420 00:25:03,516 --> 00:25:05,876 Speaker 2: together in a way that I can be happy and 421 00:25:05,916 --> 00:25:10,116 Speaker 2: productive and useful. That doesn't mean that's something didn't end. 422 00:25:11,276 --> 00:25:14,476 Speaker 1: To articulate what ended writer or what felt so stark 423 00:25:14,876 --> 00:25:18,596 Speaker 1: about the move away from home or just maybe their adolescence. 424 00:25:18,636 --> 00:25:22,676 Speaker 1: It was a decrease in emotional intimacy. Is that what 425 00:25:22,716 --> 00:25:24,276 Speaker 1: you were feeling? Is that what you were grieving? 426 00:25:25,156 --> 00:25:29,516 Speaker 2: Well, I mean first I was grieving knowing them in 427 00:25:29,516 --> 00:25:31,716 Speaker 2: the way that you know someone who lives in your house, 428 00:25:33,436 --> 00:25:36,356 Speaker 2: like you're a kid in college or the rest of 429 00:25:36,396 --> 00:25:38,636 Speaker 2: their life, Like how much does your mom know about 430 00:25:38,676 --> 00:25:42,036 Speaker 2: you right now? How much does my mom know about 431 00:25:42,076 --> 00:25:45,276 Speaker 2: me right now? Not as much as she did when 432 00:25:45,276 --> 00:25:48,276 Speaker 2: I was seventeen? Do you know who Tim Urban is? 433 00:25:48,356 --> 00:25:50,636 Speaker 2: He writes this thing called wait but why Yeah, of course. 434 00:25:51,356 --> 00:25:53,396 Speaker 2: So he did this thing where it was like this 435 00:25:53,476 --> 00:25:57,276 Speaker 2: little dot scale of how many days you have with 436 00:25:57,316 --> 00:26:03,316 Speaker 2: your parents, And as you can imagine, when you're one, two, three, four, five, 437 00:26:04,236 --> 00:26:06,676 Speaker 2: a lot of days. Like when Georgia was one, I 438 00:26:06,676 --> 00:26:09,436 Speaker 2: had three hundred and sixty five days with her. When 439 00:26:09,516 --> 00:26:14,916 Speaker 2: Georgia's eighteen, I have thirty five days with her. When 440 00:26:14,916 --> 00:26:19,556 Speaker 2: George's thirty, I have twelve days with her. When George's forty, 441 00:26:20,396 --> 00:26:23,756 Speaker 2: I have five days with her, like five days in 442 00:26:23,796 --> 00:26:28,276 Speaker 2: a year, like not that many. So I guess I 443 00:26:28,356 --> 00:26:32,236 Speaker 2: was just grieving, like this is what's going to happen? 444 00:26:32,276 --> 00:26:34,436 Speaker 2: Like this is the way this is. And it's so 445 00:26:34,636 --> 00:26:38,516 Speaker 2: weird to me that something that was so consuming for 446 00:26:38,596 --> 00:26:40,996 Speaker 2: me as a kid, it's like all I thought about. 447 00:26:41,796 --> 00:26:43,796 Speaker 2: And then when it started happening, like when I met 448 00:26:43,916 --> 00:26:45,556 Speaker 2: Edward and fell in love and got married and then 449 00:26:45,556 --> 00:26:48,836 Speaker 2: we got pregnant, and we got pregnant again, I thought, 450 00:26:49,476 --> 00:26:52,636 Speaker 2: this is it, Like it's happening. But I didn't have 451 00:26:52,796 --> 00:26:59,156 Speaker 2: any big, really specific visions about what happens now. So 452 00:26:59,196 --> 00:27:01,476 Speaker 2: it wasn't like I was like moving into this awesome 453 00:27:01,516 --> 00:27:04,156 Speaker 2: thing that I had been anticipating my whole life. It 454 00:27:04,196 --> 00:27:05,876 Speaker 2: was like, oh God, this is the part where like 455 00:27:05,916 --> 00:27:08,356 Speaker 2: nobody really knows what they're doing and how long they 456 00:27:08,356 --> 00:27:11,676 Speaker 2: should do it for. And you know, like this part 457 00:27:11,796 --> 00:27:16,916 Speaker 2: is so ambiguous compared to you know, in the first 458 00:27:16,956 --> 00:27:20,156 Speaker 2: stage of your life, you're someone's kid, and then if 459 00:27:20,196 --> 00:27:22,236 Speaker 2: you become a parent, then you do that for the 460 00:27:22,276 --> 00:27:24,716 Speaker 2: next stage, and then the next stage is like what now, 461 00:27:25,716 --> 00:27:30,076 Speaker 2: this is a time to like move your focus. It's 462 00:27:30,196 --> 00:27:32,876 Speaker 2: like in my mind at night when I wake up, 463 00:27:33,556 --> 00:27:37,956 Speaker 2: I literally think like of this visual where I'm rotating 464 00:27:38,076 --> 00:27:42,596 Speaker 2: my field of vision away from them to the people 465 00:27:42,596 --> 00:27:45,396 Speaker 2: in my life right now who can make use of 466 00:27:45,436 --> 00:27:48,956 Speaker 2: me I mean, it's interesting. I have so much work. 467 00:27:49,236 --> 00:27:52,116 Speaker 2: I have a TV show on PBS, I have a podcast. 468 00:27:52,236 --> 00:27:55,716 Speaker 2: We produce three podcasts every week. I'm writing a manuscript 469 00:27:55,796 --> 00:27:59,676 Speaker 2: and I'm writing a children's book right now. Wow, And 470 00:27:59,716 --> 00:28:02,316 Speaker 2: it's still not enough to get them out of my 471 00:28:02,356 --> 00:28:05,396 Speaker 2: field of vision, like they're still right there. I still 472 00:28:05,436 --> 00:28:08,756 Speaker 2: have to like sweep them away and like almost like 473 00:28:09,196 --> 00:28:13,276 Speaker 2: burn my head and leave them in their own little 474 00:28:13,276 --> 00:28:16,916 Speaker 2: box over there doing whatever they're doing, which is something 475 00:28:16,956 --> 00:28:19,996 Speaker 2: I will never know, right. It's not like I'm gonna 476 00:28:20,076 --> 00:28:22,636 Speaker 2: get the play by play later where they're like, here's 477 00:28:22,676 --> 00:28:25,876 Speaker 2: what happened in college, Like it's not coming. I'm not 478 00:28:25,916 --> 00:28:28,836 Speaker 2: gonna know. It's none of my business, honestly, and if 479 00:28:28,836 --> 00:28:31,156 Speaker 2: I'm doing it right, I don't even want to know. 480 00:28:31,676 --> 00:28:33,516 Speaker 2: Like that's where I'm trying to get to. And so 481 00:28:33,716 --> 00:28:35,596 Speaker 2: the way I do it is just like this little 482 00:28:35,636 --> 00:28:38,716 Speaker 2: exercise where it's like they're full in the frame. I 483 00:28:38,796 --> 00:28:40,556 Speaker 2: used to be a photographer, So if you can imagine, 484 00:28:40,556 --> 00:28:42,836 Speaker 2: like you're holding your camera to your eye and you're 485 00:28:42,836 --> 00:28:45,236 Speaker 2: filling the frame with your kids, and then you just 486 00:28:45,516 --> 00:28:48,956 Speaker 2: rotate and you put somebody else in the center of 487 00:28:49,036 --> 00:28:51,956 Speaker 2: the frame. You put your work. You put somebody you 488 00:28:52,036 --> 00:28:54,156 Speaker 2: love who needs some help. You put somebody who makes 489 00:28:54,156 --> 00:28:57,236 Speaker 2: you feel useful, you put some volunteer activity, you put 490 00:28:57,276 --> 00:29:01,876 Speaker 2: your spouse, anybody like move your field of focus. 491 00:29:02,076 --> 00:29:06,716 Speaker 1: Yeah, along the way as part of this long journey 492 00:29:06,836 --> 00:29:10,556 Speaker 1: right through childhood and then adolescent and then now they're 493 00:29:10,836 --> 00:29:13,556 Speaker 1: own adults going off into the world, were you ever 494 00:29:13,716 --> 00:29:16,236 Speaker 1: tempted to put up some emotional walls to try to 495 00:29:16,236 --> 00:29:18,236 Speaker 1: protect yourself from getting hurt? 496 00:29:18,676 --> 00:29:21,996 Speaker 2: I mean, probably, like like a shooting star kind of thought. 497 00:29:22,316 --> 00:29:23,796 Speaker 2: But like the minute you see them on your phone, 498 00:29:23,796 --> 00:29:26,756 Speaker 2: you're like, hey, how are you? Like, you know, the 499 00:29:26,836 --> 00:29:29,196 Speaker 2: night before you're like, I got a stop. This is crazy, 500 00:29:29,276 --> 00:29:31,316 Speaker 2: you know, I'm like losing my mind here. And then 501 00:29:31,476 --> 00:29:35,156 Speaker 2: it's like it's like being in a romance a little bit. Yeah. 502 00:29:35,596 --> 00:29:38,436 Speaker 2: I mean, Tina Fey did this hilarious thing on Jimmy Fallon. 503 00:29:38,636 --> 00:29:39,436 Speaker 1: I love that. 504 00:29:39,876 --> 00:29:43,196 Speaker 4: Having a teenage daughter is like having an office crush, 505 00:29:43,396 --> 00:29:46,116 Speaker 4: because you just like always like you're thinking about them 506 00:29:46,156 --> 00:29:48,876 Speaker 4: a lot more than they're thinking about you, and you 507 00:29:48,996 --> 00:29:50,476 Speaker 4: just like go up to their door and you're like 508 00:29:51,476 --> 00:29:53,116 Speaker 4: a bunch of us are going to eat dinner. 509 00:29:53,156 --> 00:29:58,116 Speaker 1: You're probably busy, you know, like just trying to play 510 00:29:58,156 --> 00:30:00,316 Speaker 1: it cool, but like, don't worry because you might be 511 00:30:00,356 --> 00:30:02,316 Speaker 1: like super busy, So I totally get yeah, if you 512 00:30:02,356 --> 00:30:04,276 Speaker 1: can't come, but like, yeeah. 513 00:30:06,876 --> 00:30:10,236 Speaker 2: I've definitely like on a bag day when I feel 514 00:30:10,236 --> 00:30:14,276 Speaker 2: like my involvement is counterproductive, where I'm messing it up, 515 00:30:14,356 --> 00:30:16,396 Speaker 2: I'm making it harder for them, I'm putting rocks in 516 00:30:16,436 --> 00:30:19,196 Speaker 2: their backpack in some way that I'm newly aware of. 517 00:30:20,356 --> 00:30:23,036 Speaker 2: And then you kind of like flooded with shame and defensiveness. 518 00:30:23,476 --> 00:30:26,316 Speaker 2: And then I always think the same thought, which is 519 00:30:26,396 --> 00:30:28,796 Speaker 2: I'm going to go to Europe and live there for 520 00:30:28,836 --> 00:30:32,756 Speaker 2: five years and leave you alone and let you do 521 00:30:32,916 --> 00:30:37,436 Speaker 2: your individuating and I'll see you, you know, when you're 522 00:30:37,436 --> 00:30:40,156 Speaker 2: twenty eight, and it'll be great, Like you don't need 523 00:30:40,196 --> 00:30:43,316 Speaker 2: me and I'm just making trouble and I got to 524 00:30:43,356 --> 00:30:46,956 Speaker 2: avert my gaze. So anyway, yes, my instinct is like 525 00:30:47,036 --> 00:30:49,276 Speaker 2: get out of the way. But I have to get 526 00:30:49,316 --> 00:30:52,476 Speaker 2: out of the way in this very dramatic move where 527 00:30:52,516 --> 00:30:55,076 Speaker 2: I'm like, I can't talk to you for five years. 528 00:30:55,276 --> 00:30:58,276 Speaker 2: I go grow up and I'll take care of myself. 529 00:30:58,316 --> 00:31:00,196 Speaker 2: And you know, it's so stupid, You're. 530 00:31:00,036 --> 00:31:02,316 Speaker 1: Gonna miss me, kid, You're gonna miss me because I'm 531 00:31:02,316 --> 00:31:04,916 Speaker 1: actually a really good hang. Yeah, that's right, that's right, 532 00:31:05,156 --> 00:31:07,916 Speaker 1: that's gonna say. Kelly and I are hitting it off. 533 00:31:08,356 --> 00:31:10,636 Speaker 1: I do find that, ye, I do find sometimes that 534 00:31:10,676 --> 00:31:13,356 Speaker 1: I'm like, you know, people find like what I have 535 00:31:13,476 --> 00:31:18,516 Speaker 1: to say to be useful, Like I you know, like 536 00:31:18,556 --> 00:31:21,076 Speaker 1: you're like, I have a TV show, Yeah, people like 537 00:31:21,156 --> 00:31:21,636 Speaker 1: tune in. 538 00:31:22,556 --> 00:31:23,396 Speaker 2: You wouldn't believe it. 539 00:31:23,556 --> 00:31:27,196 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know. I'm trying to put myself in your shoes. 540 00:31:27,236 --> 00:31:29,356 Speaker 1: And of course I don't have kids, so it's hard 541 00:31:29,396 --> 00:31:31,756 Speaker 1: for me to fully appreciate the relationship or what that 542 00:31:31,796 --> 00:31:35,196 Speaker 1: bond is like. But I could just imagine myself feeling 543 00:31:36,716 --> 00:31:40,956 Speaker 1: betrayed by the system, if that makes sense, Like wtf, 544 00:31:41,236 --> 00:31:44,396 Speaker 1: this is the arc, this is how things are supposed 545 00:31:44,476 --> 00:31:46,676 Speaker 1: to play out, And now here I am with my 546 00:31:46,836 --> 00:31:49,356 Speaker 1: heart just broken into pieces and feeling like I don't 547 00:31:49,716 --> 00:31:52,156 Speaker 1: have the kind of intimacy that I had before with 548 00:31:52,156 --> 00:31:53,756 Speaker 1: my kids, and not because I don't want it. In fact, 549 00:31:53,756 --> 00:31:55,916 Speaker 1: I'm obsessed with them, Like I would just feel so 550 00:31:56,716 --> 00:31:58,876 Speaker 1: ticked off. Did you ever feel that way? 551 00:31:59,676 --> 00:32:04,796 Speaker 2: Yes? I feel I alternate between this very mature acknowledgment 552 00:32:04,916 --> 00:32:09,956 Speaker 2: that like, this is how it goes, this is the relationship, 553 00:32:09,996 --> 00:32:12,236 Speaker 2: this is the job, and the job is more or 554 00:32:12,316 --> 00:32:14,996 Speaker 2: less done. And now I'm here to enjoy them when 555 00:32:14,996 --> 00:32:17,596 Speaker 2: they happen to have time to enjoy me. Yeah, you know, 556 00:32:17,716 --> 00:32:21,836 Speaker 2: like can't get enough, don't need a thing. That's my motto. 557 00:32:22,276 --> 00:32:26,036 Speaker 2: It's like, can't get enough, don't need a thing. And 558 00:32:26,116 --> 00:32:29,116 Speaker 2: I you know, I had a lot of conversations with 559 00:32:29,156 --> 00:32:33,916 Speaker 2: a lot of mom friends about can you believe this 560 00:32:33,956 --> 00:32:35,356 Speaker 2: is the way the story goes? 561 00:32:35,836 --> 00:32:36,356 Speaker 1: Yeah? 562 00:32:36,596 --> 00:32:39,156 Speaker 2: Wow, Wow, what an ending. 563 00:32:40,596 --> 00:32:43,396 Speaker 1: Let's say that you're the organizer of the universe. You 564 00:32:43,436 --> 00:32:46,276 Speaker 1: get to decide for just one moment. Finally, let's enter 565 00:32:46,316 --> 00:32:49,036 Speaker 1: this natural Yeah, finally, I know, even waiting for this moment, 566 00:32:49,196 --> 00:32:50,236 Speaker 1: I'm giving it to you, girl. 567 00:32:50,396 --> 00:32:50,756 Speaker 2: Thank you. 568 00:32:51,396 --> 00:32:54,956 Speaker 1: I want you to help me understand, like emotionally, if 569 00:32:54,996 --> 00:32:58,516 Speaker 1: we're solving for your needs in this moment, what would 570 00:32:58,556 --> 00:33:02,156 Speaker 1: the natural arc of parent child relationship look like? How 571 00:33:02,196 --> 00:33:04,236 Speaker 1: would it have turned out on their way to college? 572 00:33:04,356 --> 00:33:07,556 Speaker 1: How would it have been different? And you're in control, 573 00:33:07,596 --> 00:33:09,196 Speaker 1: you're the design architect here. 574 00:33:12,636 --> 00:33:16,076 Speaker 2: That the way it would be different is that we 575 00:33:16,196 --> 00:33:24,996 Speaker 2: would the parents would have some switch built into us 576 00:33:26,036 --> 00:33:29,956 Speaker 2: that flips at just the right moment, such that we 577 00:33:30,076 --> 00:33:35,996 Speaker 2: can totally let go and be thrilled by the release. 578 00:33:37,276 --> 00:33:39,396 Speaker 2: And I think some people have that. I mean, Edward, 579 00:33:39,676 --> 00:33:42,276 Speaker 2: my husband would not give you the same answers to 580 00:33:42,316 --> 00:33:46,076 Speaker 2: these questions, like he's delighted. He can't believe it. It's 581 00:33:46,116 --> 00:33:49,396 Speaker 2: just fantastic. It's great that they're on their own, it's 582 00:33:49,396 --> 00:33:52,236 Speaker 2: great they're independent. It's great that they don't need to 583 00:33:52,236 --> 00:33:55,676 Speaker 2: talk to us that much. Like it's all turning out perfectly, 584 00:33:56,436 --> 00:33:59,436 Speaker 2: And I admire him for that. I think he's probably right, 585 00:33:59,716 --> 00:34:05,156 Speaker 2: Like I don't defend where I'm coming from, and in fact, 586 00:34:05,276 --> 00:34:10,276 Speaker 2: I consider myself flawed. Just don't think I'm alone in it. 587 00:34:10,796 --> 00:34:13,156 Speaker 2: I just have a feeling that a lot of us 588 00:34:13,236 --> 00:34:14,036 Speaker 2: feel this way. 589 00:34:14,356 --> 00:34:17,356 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it's interesting because even from a cultural perspective, 590 00:34:17,556 --> 00:34:21,356 Speaker 1: I'm thinking about how different my own orientation is about 591 00:34:21,396 --> 00:34:25,156 Speaker 1: what children owe their parents or vice versa. Like my 592 00:34:25,276 --> 00:34:27,036 Speaker 1: parents aren't like, hey, is it okay if I text 593 00:34:27,076 --> 00:34:29,276 Speaker 1: your call? They will call me whenever the hell they want, 594 00:34:29,316 --> 00:34:31,036 Speaker 1: and the expectation is that I will pick up. So 595 00:34:31,276 --> 00:34:34,036 Speaker 1: that's a whole other thing, which is just societal expectations 596 00:34:34,076 --> 00:34:36,316 Speaker 1: within the Indian culture about what this relationship is like 597 00:34:36,596 --> 00:34:38,396 Speaker 1: and I'm just thinking in this moment, how curious is 598 00:34:38,436 --> 00:34:41,116 Speaker 1: it that your answer to my question wasn't well, that 599 00:34:41,196 --> 00:34:43,116 Speaker 1: my kids would just keep sharing their lives with me. 600 00:34:43,196 --> 00:34:45,276 Speaker 1: God damn it, that's what I really want. I want 601 00:34:45,316 --> 00:34:47,916 Speaker 1: them to keep sharing with me everything. And that's such 602 00:34:47,956 --> 00:34:52,756 Speaker 1: an interesting perspective that your answer was was an adjustment 603 00:34:52,796 --> 00:34:56,116 Speaker 1: on the parent side. It involved no adjustment to how 604 00:34:56,396 --> 00:35:00,156 Speaker 1: the kids development turns out or that's striving for independence. 605 00:35:00,476 --> 00:35:02,836 Speaker 1: So it seems like you're comfortable with the independence piece. 606 00:35:02,916 --> 00:35:04,756 Speaker 1: You just need to Yeah, ooh interesting. 607 00:35:05,596 --> 00:35:09,796 Speaker 2: You know one thing that makes me super happy, and 608 00:35:09,876 --> 00:35:13,076 Speaker 2: I just noticed it because it happened yesterday, is when 609 00:35:13,116 --> 00:35:19,396 Speaker 2: I know that they're experiencing deep intimacy with someone else, 610 00:35:21,036 --> 00:35:24,276 Speaker 2: I'm delighted and it really helps me let go. So 611 00:35:24,396 --> 00:35:26,956 Speaker 2: Georgia has this great friend named Nora, Claire has this 612 00:35:26,996 --> 00:35:32,676 Speaker 2: great friend named Emma. Those relationships really help me release 613 00:35:33,236 --> 00:35:36,516 Speaker 2: because I think, oh my god, whatever Claire takes to Emma, 614 00:35:36,596 --> 00:35:39,436 Speaker 2: whatever Georgia takes to Nora, she's going to get great advice. 615 00:35:39,596 --> 00:35:43,276 Speaker 2: They have great camaraderie. They have the kinds of conversations 616 00:35:43,276 --> 00:35:45,116 Speaker 2: that like, sure, in a perfect world, I'd love to 617 00:35:45,156 --> 00:35:47,316 Speaker 2: have that conversation. I'd love to be in on that. 618 00:35:47,356 --> 00:35:49,396 Speaker 2: I love a deep conversation. I mean, I love talking 619 00:35:49,396 --> 00:35:54,036 Speaker 2: to you, but it's not appropriate for me to be 620 00:35:54,116 --> 00:35:57,036 Speaker 2: the one in that conversation. What's perfect is for them 621 00:35:57,076 --> 00:36:01,556 Speaker 2: to have one great friend and have the two of 622 00:36:01,596 --> 00:36:03,996 Speaker 2: them kind of figuring it out together. And that's true 623 00:36:03,996 --> 00:36:06,876 Speaker 2: of both my girls, and that makes me really happy 624 00:36:06,916 --> 00:36:08,476 Speaker 2: and it really helps me let go. 625 00:36:09,996 --> 00:36:12,356 Speaker 1: So intellectually I'm on board. I want to know how 626 00:36:12,436 --> 00:36:14,836 Speaker 1: you get your emotional side to catch up to that 627 00:36:14,916 --> 00:36:18,636 Speaker 1: realization that actually it's developmentally appropriate for them to have 628 00:36:18,716 --> 00:36:20,516 Speaker 1: that friend and for it not to be me. How 629 00:36:20,556 --> 00:36:22,876 Speaker 1: do you because I'm just trying to think about okay, 630 00:36:22,956 --> 00:36:25,276 Speaker 1: like a parent's listening to this right now, being like, Kelly, 631 00:36:25,796 --> 00:36:28,876 Speaker 1: you've convinced my prefrontal cortex that you've convinced my rational 632 00:36:28,916 --> 00:36:32,316 Speaker 1: brain that this is how I ought to see things. 633 00:36:32,316 --> 00:36:35,756 Speaker 1: But oh my god, it's a blow to feel like 634 00:36:35,876 --> 00:36:39,116 Speaker 1: when they get broken up with I'm not the first 635 00:36:39,116 --> 00:36:41,516 Speaker 1: person they're calling. I'm not on their favorites list. 636 00:36:42,676 --> 00:36:44,956 Speaker 2: That doesn't bother me. Like, as long as you're in 637 00:36:45,036 --> 00:36:51,196 Speaker 2: good hands, I'm happy. It doesn't have to be my hands. 638 00:36:51,996 --> 00:36:54,676 Speaker 2: The idea that you would be alone and in pain 639 00:36:55,396 --> 00:37:00,156 Speaker 2: and not calling me. That kills me. I love you 640 00:37:00,236 --> 00:37:03,476 Speaker 2: more than all the people in the whole world and 641 00:37:03,556 --> 00:37:09,516 Speaker 2: anyone ever will, so let it be me. But if 642 00:37:09,516 --> 00:37:12,876 Speaker 2: they have a peer, that's really my first choice. My 643 00:37:12,996 --> 00:37:17,596 Speaker 2: first choice is that they would know true friendship with 644 00:37:17,796 --> 00:37:20,836 Speaker 2: just one person, that is plenty. You can get anywhere 645 00:37:20,836 --> 00:37:22,996 Speaker 2: from there, and I had that. You know, I had 646 00:37:23,036 --> 00:37:25,516 Speaker 2: a great friend in college, Tracy Tuttle. I talk about 647 00:37:25,516 --> 00:37:27,396 Speaker 2: her all the time, and she's so important to me 648 00:37:27,476 --> 00:37:32,516 Speaker 2: to this day. And I think it must have been 649 00:37:32,556 --> 00:37:36,756 Speaker 2: lovely for my mom to think she's got Tracy Tuttle. Yeah, 650 00:37:37,036 --> 00:37:38,716 Speaker 2: the girl's never going to leave her, and she never did. 651 00:37:38,716 --> 00:37:41,036 Speaker 2: I mean, we've been friends for thirty five years. 652 00:37:42,316 --> 00:37:46,356 Speaker 1: You know. One of the reasons, Kelly, are so excited 653 00:37:46,396 --> 00:37:48,156 Speaker 1: and eager to have you on the show is that 654 00:37:48,236 --> 00:37:51,836 Speaker 1: your story is so different from the others that we've heard, 655 00:37:52,236 --> 00:37:55,036 Speaker 1: because in your case, everything did go to plan right. 656 00:37:55,076 --> 00:37:57,756 Speaker 1: Your kids grew up, Yes, they became their own people. 657 00:37:58,276 --> 00:38:01,756 Speaker 1: You've written elsewhere that they're parting from you marks the 658 00:38:01,876 --> 00:38:04,876 Speaker 1: ultimate success, right like that is the end goal, and 659 00:38:04,956 --> 00:38:09,716 Speaker 1: yet the reality of it totally knocked your socks off. 660 00:38:10,356 --> 00:38:13,956 Speaker 2: MM hm, yes, exactly. There was no change of plans 661 00:38:13,996 --> 00:38:16,956 Speaker 2: whatsoever the day they were born. This is what we 662 00:38:16,996 --> 00:38:17,556 Speaker 2: would hope for. 663 00:38:18,156 --> 00:38:20,276 Speaker 1: And yeah, and I think what it's done is it's 664 00:38:21,076 --> 00:38:24,196 Speaker 1: made me expand my understanding of change in the context 665 00:38:24,276 --> 00:38:27,116 Speaker 1: of this show and in my life, to include those 666 00:38:27,156 --> 00:38:30,796 Speaker 1: experiences where we intellectually know what to expect, but we 667 00:38:30,876 --> 00:38:34,076 Speaker 1: can't possibly predict how it will make us feel. 668 00:38:34,756 --> 00:38:37,516 Speaker 2: That's right, that's right. I mean there is like a 669 00:38:37,516 --> 00:38:42,116 Speaker 2: grand canyon between what I know and what I feel. Yeah, 670 00:38:42,156 --> 00:38:42,916 Speaker 2: a grand canyon. 671 00:38:42,996 --> 00:38:45,876 Speaker 1: And I can see that tension in this conversation. I 672 00:38:45,996 --> 00:38:48,396 Speaker 1: feel like you've got these two you got like the 673 00:38:48,436 --> 00:38:51,116 Speaker 1: Angel and devil metaphorically like on your shoulders, right, and 674 00:38:51,116 --> 00:38:53,356 Speaker 1: one of them is like, now, Kelly, this is what 675 00:38:53,396 --> 00:38:55,236 Speaker 1: you ought to be like and then the other parts 676 00:38:55,276 --> 00:38:58,836 Speaker 1: like bawling tears just remembering the moment you let your 677 00:38:58,876 --> 00:39:01,876 Speaker 1: kid go. So I can the tension is so palpable 678 00:39:01,916 --> 00:39:04,676 Speaker 1: to me in this conversation. Yeah, it's like an ongoing 679 00:39:04,756 --> 00:39:07,876 Speaker 1: battle between intellect and emotion. Right. 680 00:39:07,996 --> 00:39:10,396 Speaker 2: It's exhausting, My, it's so exhausting. 681 00:39:10,476 --> 00:39:14,636 Speaker 1: Yes, how do you think differently about your role as 682 00:39:14,636 --> 00:39:17,756 Speaker 1: a parent now than maybe you used to or just 683 00:39:17,796 --> 00:39:20,156 Speaker 1: given the stage of life your kids are in. 684 00:39:20,676 --> 00:39:23,836 Speaker 2: I don't think I'm a parent anymore. And people will 685 00:39:23,876 --> 00:39:26,596 Speaker 2: go bananas over that, but I really don't. 686 00:39:26,916 --> 00:39:29,116 Speaker 1: That's fascinating. Tell me more about that. 687 00:39:29,636 --> 00:39:32,316 Speaker 2: For me, that's the only way for me to get 688 00:39:32,356 --> 00:39:35,396 Speaker 2: in the right space. It's the only way for me 689 00:39:35,516 --> 00:39:40,236 Speaker 2: to orient myself relative to them. Is like, I'm not 690 00:39:40,396 --> 00:39:44,516 Speaker 2: your parent. You don't belong to me. I'm not responsible 691 00:39:44,556 --> 00:39:48,676 Speaker 2: for you. I don't own you. Your life is none 692 00:39:48,716 --> 00:39:50,276 Speaker 2: of my business. You may share as much or as 693 00:39:50,276 --> 00:39:54,316 Speaker 2: little as you like. I shouldn't have an opinion about everything, 694 00:39:55,556 --> 00:39:57,356 Speaker 2: what you wear, who you dated, how your hair it is, 695 00:39:57,396 --> 00:39:59,276 Speaker 2: what your major is, what job you take, what are 696 00:39:59,276 --> 00:40:04,676 Speaker 2: you doing this summer? Like, so, I'm just a person 697 00:40:04,996 --> 00:40:09,076 Speaker 2: who's crazy about you. That's who I am. 698 00:40:09,236 --> 00:40:09,396 Speaker 3: Hmm. 699 00:40:11,836 --> 00:40:13,436 Speaker 2: But I am not a parent in the way that 700 00:40:13,516 --> 00:40:16,156 Speaker 2: I have always defined that word. 701 00:40:17,116 --> 00:40:21,556 Speaker 1: And how did you define it before? You know? 702 00:40:21,636 --> 00:40:26,116 Speaker 2: I'm responsible for you. Yeah, I'm here to take care 703 00:40:26,156 --> 00:40:34,876 Speaker 2: of you, and now i'm you know, I'm on standby, 704 00:40:35,436 --> 00:40:36,876 Speaker 2: I'm your emergency contact. 705 00:40:38,596 --> 00:40:42,676 Speaker 1: Given the new contours of this relationship, I wonder what 706 00:40:42,756 --> 00:40:45,756 Speaker 1: you feel that you can reasonably expect from your kids, Like, 707 00:40:45,756 --> 00:40:47,836 Speaker 1: what do you feel that you should expect from your 708 00:40:47,916 --> 00:40:49,836 Speaker 1: kids at this stage. 709 00:40:50,156 --> 00:40:52,436 Speaker 2: I think I should expect as little as possible. I 710 00:40:52,476 --> 00:40:57,556 Speaker 2: think that the next I mean, really, this sounds crazy, 711 00:40:57,596 --> 00:40:59,836 Speaker 2: but I think the next time I can really expect 712 00:40:59,876 --> 00:41:05,756 Speaker 2: things from them is when I'm old and dying. I 713 00:41:05,796 --> 00:41:11,636 Speaker 2: think everything else is not their problem. And if they 714 00:41:11,676 --> 00:41:15,116 Speaker 2: want to come around and great, but they don't owe 715 00:41:15,116 --> 00:41:18,716 Speaker 2: me that they really don't. 716 00:41:19,076 --> 00:41:24,556 Speaker 1: And yet you owe them being on standby indefinitely, able 717 00:41:24,596 --> 00:41:26,356 Speaker 1: to cheer them on no matter what, and to love 718 00:41:26,396 --> 00:41:27,236 Speaker 1: them unconditionally. 719 00:41:28,076 --> 00:41:31,756 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, that is the framework of the relationship in 720 00:41:31,756 --> 00:41:32,676 Speaker 2: my opinion. 721 00:41:33,676 --> 00:41:37,756 Speaker 1: And that, like that feels like a cheap deal. Kelly Corgan, 722 00:41:38,196 --> 00:41:40,556 Speaker 1: I'm just saying. I'm just listening out, and I get 723 00:41:40,596 --> 00:41:43,316 Speaker 1: what you're saying, But damn, that's hard. 724 00:41:43,396 --> 00:41:45,676 Speaker 2: It's the only way for it to be beautiful. It's 725 00:41:45,676 --> 00:41:47,116 Speaker 2: the only way that it could be beautiful. 726 00:41:48,356 --> 00:41:51,076 Speaker 1: Hmm. Okay. So I think what I'm realizing is, like 727 00:41:51,756 --> 00:41:55,476 Speaker 1: we all talk about unconditional love, it's a platitude. Yeah, 728 00:41:55,596 --> 00:42:01,396 Speaker 1: you have helped me better grasp what that kind of 729 00:42:01,476 --> 00:42:06,196 Speaker 1: unconditional love can look like in this relationship. You've made 730 00:42:06,236 --> 00:42:08,716 Speaker 1: it more specific for me, which is really helpful, I 731 00:42:08,716 --> 00:42:12,076 Speaker 1: think to understand what we mean when we say the platitude. 732 00:42:12,116 --> 00:42:16,156 Speaker 1: This is partly what we mean. We mean accepting that 733 00:42:16,156 --> 00:42:18,556 Speaker 1: we're getting the short end of the stick and being 734 00:42:18,596 --> 00:42:19,196 Speaker 1: okay with it. 735 00:42:20,396 --> 00:42:23,636 Speaker 2: If there's any obligation from therein to me, then it 736 00:42:23,676 --> 00:42:26,356 Speaker 2: can't be beautiful. It can just be the meeting of 737 00:42:26,396 --> 00:42:31,756 Speaker 2: an obligation. If there's no obligation and then you actually 738 00:42:31,796 --> 00:42:34,116 Speaker 2: have time together and you actually enjoy each other and 739 00:42:34,116 --> 00:42:38,596 Speaker 2: there's actually sort of a nice flow between you, then 740 00:42:38,636 --> 00:42:46,356 Speaker 2: it's beautiful. Somehow, you have to learn to relish giving 741 00:42:46,396 --> 00:42:55,236 Speaker 2: it away with no expectation of return, because then if 742 00:42:55,236 --> 00:42:59,756 Speaker 2: they return, when they return, when they love you back, 743 00:43:00,396 --> 00:43:03,836 Speaker 2: when they crave you, it's magnificent. 744 00:43:34,556 --> 00:43:37,436 Speaker 1: Hey, thanks so much for listening. Join me next week 745 00:43:37,436 --> 00:43:40,756 Speaker 1: when I talk to psychologists doctor Marissa Franco about the 746 00:43:40,836 --> 00:43:44,876 Speaker 1: science of friendship. Marisa wants us to value our friends 747 00:43:44,916 --> 00:43:48,156 Speaker 1: like we value our family and our romantic partners, because 748 00:43:48,196 --> 00:43:51,636 Speaker 1: friends can help us access new and exciting parts of ourselves. 749 00:43:52,476 --> 00:43:55,836 Speaker 3: Each person that we interact with is an advertisement for 750 00:43:55,996 --> 00:43:58,836 Speaker 3: the coaleidoscope of ways in which we can live. That 751 00:43:58,996 --> 00:44:02,676 Speaker 3: learning happens through being able to see a friend engage 752 00:44:02,676 --> 00:44:04,556 Speaker 3: at a certain hobby or interest and you're like, maybe 753 00:44:04,596 --> 00:44:06,996 Speaker 3: I would like that hobby or interest. It's that exposure 754 00:44:07,036 --> 00:44:09,676 Speaker 3: that we get through each friend, and so in that way, 755 00:44:09,716 --> 00:44:12,316 Speaker 3: it's like each person that we interact with can bring 756 00:44:12,356 --> 00:44:17,516 Speaker 3: out a new and different side of our identities. 757 00:44:25,196 --> 00:44:28,196 Speaker 1: A Slight Change of Plans is created, written, and executive 758 00:44:28,196 --> 00:44:31,876 Speaker 1: produced by me Maya Shunker. The Slight Change family includes 759 00:44:31,916 --> 00:44:35,996 Speaker 1: our showrunner Tyler Green, our senior editor Kate Parkinson Morgan, 760 00:44:36,396 --> 00:44:41,076 Speaker 1: our sound engineer Andrew Bastola, and our associate producer Sarah McCrae. 761 00:44:41,676 --> 00:44:44,956 Speaker 1: Louis Scara wrote our delightful theme song, and Ginger Smith 762 00:44:44,996 --> 00:44:48,356 Speaker 1: helped arrange the vocals. A Slight Change of Plans is 763 00:44:48,396 --> 00:44:51,876 Speaker 1: a production of Pushkin Industry, So big thanks to everyone there, 764 00:44:52,436 --> 00:44:56,436 Speaker 1: and of course a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. 765 00:44:56,716 --> 00:44:59,196 Speaker 1: You can follow a Slight Change of Plans on Instagram 766 00:44:59,236 --> 00:45:02,236 Speaker 1: at doctor Maya Shunker, See you next week. 767 00:45:21,956 --> 00:45:25,596 Speaker 2: My daughters have said to me, it's a hug, mom, 768 00:45:25,996 --> 00:45:26,636 Speaker 2: not a hang. 769 00:45:30,236 --> 00:45:34,996 Speaker 1: So Kelly, I'm here. I'm here for the hang any day, Okay, 770 00:45:35,036 --> 00:45:36,996 Speaker 1: I'll come over and we will embrace. 771 00:45:37,956 --> 00:45:40,236 Speaker 2: I'll hold you anytime. You're so tiny, I could pick 772 00:45:40,276 --> 00:45:41,476 Speaker 2: you up and put me in my arms.