1
00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:12,440
Speaker 1: Hey to your Therapist listeners. It's Lori and Guy and

2
00:01:12,479 --> 00:01:13,600
Speaker 1: we have a quick update.

3
00:01:13,839 --> 00:01:16,039
Speaker 2: Many of you have told us that you get something

4
00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:18,439
Speaker 2: new out of each episode when you listen to it

5
00:01:18,479 --> 00:01:21,719
Speaker 2: again the second or third time. In fact, when we

6
00:01:21,839 --> 00:01:24,800
Speaker 2: listen to the episodes again, we also get takeaways we

7
00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:25,440
Speaker 2: didn't remember.

8
00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:28,080
Speaker 1: We're They're therapy is like that too. There are so

9
00:01:28,199 --> 00:01:30,839
Speaker 1: many learning moments in a session, and it's difficult to

10
00:01:30,919 --> 00:01:33,439
Speaker 1: absorb them all at once. So while we're not taping

11
00:01:33,559 --> 00:01:37,039
Speaker 1: new episodes right now, we are offering you our most

12
00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:40,399
Speaker 1: popular sessions as encores so that you can continue to

13
00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:41,520
Speaker 1: gain value from them.

14
00:01:41,759 --> 00:01:45,319
Speaker 2: We love doing the Therapists episodes, but we're each busy

15
00:01:45,359 --> 00:01:48,600
Speaker 2: with new and exciting projects that we hope you will love.

16
00:01:48,639 --> 00:01:49,240
Speaker 3: Just as much.

17
00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:52,679
Speaker 1: I have a new advice podcast called Since You Asked,

18
00:01:52,799 --> 00:01:55,160
Speaker 1: which you can get wherever you listen to podcasts.

19
00:01:55,359 --> 00:01:58,160
Speaker 2: And I have a new book coming out. It's called

20
00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:03,559
Speaker 2: Mind Overgrind, How to Break Free when work Hijacks your life,

21
00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:06,520
Speaker 2: and it will be published by Simon and Schuster. You

22
00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:08,760
Speaker 2: can find out more about it on my website.

23
00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:13,519
Speaker 1: You can learn more about these on our socials. And meanwhile,

24
00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:16,639
Speaker 1: we hope you find these Dear Therapists sessions as valuable

25
00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:25,000
Speaker 1: as we have making them for you. Hey, fellow travelers,

26
00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:28,119
Speaker 1: I'm Laur Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should

27
00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:31,000
Speaker 1: Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist advice

28
00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:32,120
Speaker 1: column for The Atlantic.

29
00:02:32,399 --> 00:02:35,560
Speaker 3: And I'm Guy Winch. I wrote Emotional First Aid, and

30
00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:38,079
Speaker 3: I write the Dear Guy collumn for Ted. And this

31
00:02:38,519 --> 00:02:41,920
Speaker 3: is Dear Therapists this week. A man who left his

32
00:02:41,959 --> 00:02:44,360
Speaker 3: wife for the love of his life wonders if that

33
00:02:44,399 --> 00:02:46,160
Speaker 3: makes him a bad person. Rabia.

34
00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:48,600
Speaker 4: I did leave my wife for another woman, but the

35
00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:50,720
Speaker 4: rumors that we're about were as nasty as can be

36
00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:54,680
Speaker 4: and set the timeline very differently than what reality was.

37
00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:58,119
Speaker 1: Listen in and maybe learn something about yourself and the process.

38
00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:03,760
Speaker 3: Dear Therapist is for informational purposes only, does not constitute

39
00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:07,999
Speaker 3: medical advice and is not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis,

40
00:03:08,079 --> 00:03:11,440
Speaker 3: or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician, mental

41
00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:15,120
Speaker 3: health professional, or other qualified health provider with any questions

42
00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:18,440
Speaker 3: you may have regarding a medical condition. By submitting a letter,

43
00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:21,000
Speaker 3: you are agreeing to let iHeart Media use it in

44
00:03:21,079 --> 00:03:23,239
Speaker 3: Potter and Full, and we may edit it for length

45
00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:28,439
Speaker 3: end of clarity. Hey guy, Hi Laurie.

46
00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:32,880
Speaker 1: So I want to read you this week's letter. Dear therapists.

47
00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:35,480
Speaker 1: I'm a thirty two year old father to two young

48
00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:38,439
Speaker 1: daughters who realized too late that I was not fundamentally

49
00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:41,559
Speaker 1: in love with my wife. We started dating in college,

50
00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:44,600
Speaker 1: and our naivete led us to marry young. We both

51
00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:46,840
Speaker 1: got along by not rocking the boat and decided to

52
00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:50,439
Speaker 1: have kids. When we had our first daughter, fatherhood engulfed

53
00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:52,400
Speaker 1: me and I had never been a part of something

54
00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:55,520
Speaker 1: so important. However, I didn't feel it all connected to

55
00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:58,120
Speaker 1: my wife. I loved my daughter, but I felt like

56
00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:01,680
Speaker 1: I was alone in this endeavor. Two years ago, my

57
00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:05,080
Speaker 1: existence was lit a fire by another woman, a coworker,

58
00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:07,720
Speaker 1: to make it more complicated, and as we continued to

59
00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:10,800
Speaker 1: seek out time to interact, we started sharing ourselves with

60
00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:13,080
Speaker 1: each other in a way that we had never done

61
00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:16,360
Speaker 1: with our spouses. Our existence was made complete by each

62
00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:19,080
Speaker 1: other and we couldn't go back to what it was before.

63
00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:23,320
Speaker 1: Fairly recently, we both broke down and ended our marriages

64
00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:27,120
Speaker 1: in a storm of shock, tears, anger, hatred, and sadness.

65
00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:30,200
Speaker 1: My wife couldn't understand, because she never really understood me.

66
00:04:30,840 --> 00:04:33,560
Speaker 1: We acknowledged our marriage felt broken, but she expected us

67
00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:35,440
Speaker 1: to try to fix it because of the commitment we

68
00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:38,760
Speaker 1: had made. I am now locked in a bitter custody

69
00:04:38,799 --> 00:04:41,200
Speaker 1: battle as a fight for my right to continue to

70
00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:44,119
Speaker 1: be the father to my daughters. I am sympathetic to

71
00:04:44,159 --> 00:04:46,400
Speaker 1: the position I put my ex wife in, but I

72
00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:49,039
Speaker 1: can't imagine that the cost of my fatherhood has to

73
00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:51,039
Speaker 1: be staying in a marriage that I know was not

74
00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:53,720
Speaker 1: going to give me the fulfilling existence that I can

75
00:04:53,799 --> 00:04:57,239
Speaker 1: now have with this other woman. My life is over

76
00:04:57,360 --> 00:04:59,680
Speaker 1: as I knew it. The world around me doesn't seem

77
00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:02,999
Speaker 1: to accept my decision. My friends have abandoned me, my

78
00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:05,920
Speaker 1: coworkers think I'm a scumbag, and my wife seems to

79
00:05:05,919 --> 00:05:09,200
Speaker 1: be trying to poison everyone against me. I didn't think

80
00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:11,839
Speaker 1: I was making a selfish decision by doing this, but

81
00:05:11,919 --> 00:05:13,960
Speaker 1: the world around me is doing a good job of

82
00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:16,559
Speaker 1: convincing me that I am all of the terrible things

83
00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:18,879
Speaker 1: they say I am. I guess I just don't know

84
00:05:18,919 --> 00:05:21,159
Speaker 1: how to think any more about myself or the people

85
00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:24,839
Speaker 1: around me. Thanks Mike, Wow.

86
00:05:24,919 --> 00:05:26,919
Speaker 3: So this is a please tell me I'm not a

87
00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:30,879
Speaker 3: scumbag letter? And what's interesting to me in the letter

88
00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:36,200
Speaker 3: is Mike is so articulate about his perspective and his

89
00:05:36,279 --> 00:05:38,799
Speaker 3: feelings and his point of view. You really get a

90
00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:42,640
Speaker 3: sense of how he feels about things. It's rich. And

91
00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:48,040
Speaker 3: then on the other side you get very unrich descriptions

92
00:05:48,159 --> 00:05:53,159
Speaker 3: of what his wife experience is and even what his

93
00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:57,799
Speaker 3: girlfriend's experience is. And though he pays some lip service

94
00:05:57,839 --> 00:06:03,400
Speaker 3: to yes, my wife expected this or felt this, you

95
00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:05,640
Speaker 3: don't get a sense that he really understands what his

96
00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:09,760
Speaker 3: wife experiences or perhaps what his girlfriends is currently either.

97
00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:12,440
Speaker 1: Right, you said, it was like a please tell me

98
00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:15,360
Speaker 1: I'm not a scumbag letter to me, it's I need

99
00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:20,200
Speaker 1: to get out of jail letter too, where he's portraying

100
00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:24,440
Speaker 1: his existence as if he was in jail this whole time,

101
00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:28,160
Speaker 1: and I understand the experience of feeling trapped, of feeling

102
00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:31,839
Speaker 1: like you're unfulfilled, but he doesn't take any responsibility for

103
00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:35,359
Speaker 1: why he might have felt that way because of some

104
00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:38,320
Speaker 1: role that he might have had in this. And so

105
00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:40,279
Speaker 1: it's kind of like I was in jail when I

106
00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:42,760
Speaker 1: was married to my wife, and then this new woman.

107
00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:43,999
Speaker 1: We complete each.

108
00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:46,080
Speaker 3: Other, and yet he's more miserable than ever.

109
00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:50,280
Speaker 1: Exactly they both left their marriages. He doesn't really tell

110
00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:53,119
Speaker 1: us was it hard for her? I don't hear both

111
00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:55,679
Speaker 1: of us are going through this and we're really struggling

112
00:06:55,719 --> 00:06:59,200
Speaker 1: with this. It's I'm going through this and your wife

113
00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:03,200
Speaker 1: is now been left for this other woman. It's humiliating.

114
00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:07,200
Speaker 1: You didn't have any interest in trying to see what

115
00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:09,680
Speaker 1: went wrong in your marriage because she said I want

116
00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:11,440
Speaker 1: to try to fix it. Maybe you don't want to,

117
00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:15,360
Speaker 1: but could you at least have those conversations so that

118
00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:19,360
Speaker 1: there's some kind of different ending to that marriage. He

119
00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:24,400
Speaker 1: wants us to assuage his guilt and say, no, you're

120
00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:28,800
Speaker 1: not selfish, rather than him wanting to look inside and say,

121
00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:31,840
Speaker 1: is there a piece of me that is selfish? And

122
00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:34,240
Speaker 1: if we can get him to see that piece of himself,

123
00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:37,920
Speaker 1: maybe he'll have more compassion for the people around him.

124
00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:40,880
Speaker 3: There's another aspect to this that I wanted to point out,

125
00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:44,840
Speaker 3: in that there's a lot of passivity that comes through

126
00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:47,080
Speaker 3: the whole flavor of the letter. Is like, all this

127
00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:49,760
Speaker 3: stuff happened to me. We are all human, We can

128
00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:53,760
Speaker 3: all make mistakes. He fell in love. That part happens.

129
00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:57,360
Speaker 3: But what concerns me in these situations is that by

130
00:07:57,440 --> 00:08:00,520
Speaker 3: not taking responsibility, you're feeling like a victim.

131
00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:04,840
Speaker 1: Right. He wants to abdicate his responsibility by having us

132
00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:06,880
Speaker 1: say no, no, no, no no, what you did that

133
00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:10,240
Speaker 1: was perfectly fine. And it's not so much what he did,

134
00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:12,120
Speaker 1: it's the way in which he did it.

135
00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:15,320
Speaker 3: Yes, And I wonder whether he feels guilt or he

136
00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:18,960
Speaker 3: just feels the negative perception of the people around him,

137
00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:22,800
Speaker 3: because what we know from guilt, the research often shows

138
00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:28,360
Speaker 3: that it really prevents people from enjoying life and sometimes

139
00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:31,520
Speaker 3: even causes them to self punish. It's called a dobby effect,

140
00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:35,199
Speaker 3: based on the elf in the Harry Potter books that

141
00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:36,880
Speaker 3: you used to smack his head against the all and

142
00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:40,120
Speaker 3: go h badobie. And so there's this real phenomena that

143
00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:42,679
Speaker 3: when you actually feel guilty and you're not dealing with it,

144
00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:48,040
Speaker 3: you can somehow unconsciously take away the pleasure and enjoyment

145
00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:53,120
Speaker 3: that you might have from life. You're listening to Deer

146
00:08:53,200 --> 00:09:12,280
Speaker 3: Therapists from iHeartRadio. We'll be back after a quick break.

147
00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:15,840
Speaker 3: This is THEO therapist. Thanks for listening.

148
00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:20,600
Speaker 1: Well, let's see what he has to say.

149
00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:26,080
Speaker 3: Absolutely, let's stop to him. Mike, very good to meet you,

150
00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:29,040
Speaker 3: so first of all, tell us a little bit about

151
00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:32,080
Speaker 3: where things stand right now in terms of your kids,

152
00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:34,639
Speaker 3: how they're doing, whether you're seeing them.

153
00:09:34,680 --> 00:09:37,559
Speaker 5: Yeah, so how they're doing.

154
00:09:37,599 --> 00:09:40,480
Speaker 4: I was like, I think, if nothing else, I felt

155
00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:41,920
Speaker 4: like me and my act had done a pretty good

156
00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:44,600
Speaker 4: job of kind of shielding them from some of this drama.

157
00:09:45,119 --> 00:09:47,960
Speaker 4: Just like, not let them be a part of any

158
00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:50,199
Speaker 4: of the drama that's going down, and try not to

159
00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:52,800
Speaker 4: let them see many a lot of my negative emotions

160
00:09:52,879 --> 00:09:54,640
Speaker 4: throughout the last couple of months. How old are the

161
00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:58,440
Speaker 4: girls young? Just over three and one and a half.

162
00:09:58,680 --> 00:10:01,400
Speaker 1: What has your time been like with the girls since

163
00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:02,880
Speaker 1: you guys split up?

164
00:10:03,119 --> 00:10:07,200
Speaker 4: Well, we first split, we went through a mediation process,

165
00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:10,640
Speaker 4: and then after we had filed that mediation agreement ready

166
00:10:10,680 --> 00:10:14,000
Speaker 4: for our court date, some pretty nasty rumors got to

167
00:10:14,079 --> 00:10:15,880
Speaker 4: my ex and it sent her.

168
00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:16,479
Speaker 5: Off a deep end.

169
00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:18,920
Speaker 3: Were the rumors true?

170
00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:20,120
Speaker 5: No, no, no.

171
00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:20,200
Speaker 6: No no.

172
00:10:20,359 --> 00:10:23,120
Speaker 4: There are aspects to the story where I mean, I

173
00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:25,720
Speaker 4: did leave my wife for another woman, But the rumors

174
00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:28,400
Speaker 4: that were about were as nasty as can be and

175
00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:32,080
Speaker 4: kind of like set the timeline very differently than what

176
00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:34,880
Speaker 4: reality was. Me and my girlfriend now we worked together,

177
00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:38,480
Speaker 4: so that created some serious drama.

178
00:10:39,680 --> 00:10:40,119
Speaker 5: At work.

179
00:10:40,680 --> 00:10:43,880
Speaker 1: Were you able to clear up the rumors with your

180
00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:48,080
Speaker 1: ex wife to this day? Does she understand that what

181
00:10:48,119 --> 00:10:49,800
Speaker 1: she heard is not accurate?

182
00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:51,560
Speaker 5: Not that I know of.

183
00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:54,240
Speaker 4: We really haven't had a good I would call a

184
00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:58,159
Speaker 4: productive conversation for a year, Like the last one really

185
00:10:58,240 --> 00:10:59,919
Speaker 4: was about a year ago. It was an it was

186
00:10:59,960 --> 00:11:04,039
Speaker 4: around this time last year that things kind of blew up.

187
00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:07,000
Speaker 1: What was your communication like with your wife when you

188
00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:07,600
Speaker 1: were married?

189
00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:13,000
Speaker 4: Very surface level, I would say one of the issues

190
00:11:13,079 --> 00:11:14,760
Speaker 4: was that we didn't share a whole lot of emotions

191
00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:15,319
Speaker 4: with each other.

192
00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:19,360
Speaker 1: Do you know why you didn't share your emotions with

193
00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:20,520
Speaker 1: your wife when you were married?

194
00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:24,520
Speaker 5: I guess I would say they didn't really feel safe.

195
00:11:24,839 --> 00:11:28,800
Speaker 4: Like the handful of times I went trying to go

196
00:11:28,839 --> 00:11:31,839
Speaker 4: a little deeper, it didn't feel like it was a

197
00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:35,039
Speaker 4: supportive place to bring them up.

198
00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:35,520
Speaker 3: I thought.

199
00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:37,320
Speaker 4: I just was always worried about how it was going

200
00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:39,720
Speaker 4: to change how she thought of me. So like a

201
00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:41,360
Speaker 4: couple of times I brought up what were some of

202
00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:45,800
Speaker 4: my darker things, it was like almost like pushed aside,

203
00:11:45,879 --> 00:11:46,959
Speaker 4: like don't burden me.

204
00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:48,240
Speaker 5: With that kind of thing.

205
00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:50,800
Speaker 1: Would she use those words or how did you get

206
00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:51,920
Speaker 1: the impression it.

207
00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:54,759
Speaker 4: Was met with a lot of just kind of like no,

208
00:11:54,839 --> 00:11:58,519
Speaker 4: I would say, silence, but not necessarily like intentionally negative silence,

209
00:11:58,599 --> 00:12:00,840
Speaker 4: more just like she didn't know what to say to

210
00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:01,520
Speaker 4: me silence.

211
00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:05,280
Speaker 3: And what about the actual relationship? Were you able to

212
00:12:05,319 --> 00:12:09,080
Speaker 3: talk with her about your dissatisfactions with it or the

213
00:12:09,079 --> 00:12:11,319
Speaker 3: fact that it wasn't what you wanted it to be.

214
00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:13,680
Speaker 3: Have you made efforts in that regard? I would.

215
00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:17,439
Speaker 4: I can think of like two or three times a

216
00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:21,720
Speaker 4: few years ago, where like I was telling her what

217
00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:27,200
Speaker 4: was bothering me? And she snapped and said, stop telling

218
00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:27,640
Speaker 4: me what.

219
00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:28,439
Speaker 5: I'm doing wrong.

220
00:12:28,879 --> 00:12:30,959
Speaker 4: I remember like being taken aback, but thinking like that's

221
00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:34,600
Speaker 4: not what I was doing necessarily. But it definitely felt

222
00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:37,199
Speaker 4: like she didn't want to have that conversation about like

223
00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:39,319
Speaker 4: how we could be doing differently.

224
00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:41,160
Speaker 5: So I tried once or twice. I wouldn't say I

225
00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:41,839
Speaker 5: tried very hard.

226
00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:45,640
Speaker 4: It felt easier just to like live the circuce level

227
00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:47,999
Speaker 4: life that we had been kind of like living and

228
00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:50,319
Speaker 4: making dinner, not saying much, put it on a show,

229
00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:52,399
Speaker 4: going to bed without much conversation.

230
00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:55,640
Speaker 5: It wasn't particularly negative, It just wasn't super positive.

231
00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:59,000
Speaker 1: What do you think would have happened if you had

232
00:12:59,920 --> 00:13:02,520
Speaker 1: said to her, I'm not saying that you're doing something wrong.

233
00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:05,200
Speaker 1: I want to talk about something that's going on with us.

234
00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:09,719
Speaker 5: I don't know at this point. It only behindindsight.

235
00:13:09,839 --> 00:13:12,999
Speaker 1: But well, the reason it's not hindsight is that you're

236
00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:16,560
Speaker 1: going into a new relationship and there's something to be

237
00:13:16,680 --> 00:13:20,239
Speaker 1: learned about what didn't work in another relationship. At least

238
00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:21,039
Speaker 1: you're a part of it.

239
00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:22,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, okay, I hear that.

240
00:13:23,079 --> 00:13:27,199
Speaker 1: And I'm just wondering, you know, why do you think

241
00:13:27,680 --> 00:13:32,240
Speaker 1: you did not pursue it, given how desperately alone and

242
00:13:32,319 --> 00:13:33,280
Speaker 1: unhappy you felt.

243
00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:36,840
Speaker 4: One of the things I've really been struggling with. I

244
00:13:36,879 --> 00:13:39,999
Speaker 4: didn't necessarily know what I didn't have until I had

245
00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:44,520
Speaker 4: it with somebody else. So like my existence wasn't super

246
00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:46,760
Speaker 4: negative in a certain way. Like it wasn't like I

247
00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:49,239
Speaker 4: went home every day miserable trying to avoid my wife.

248
00:13:49,319 --> 00:13:52,320
Speaker 4: I didn't have a partnership that I've always felt like

249
00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:54,520
Speaker 4: should have been there. So when I found it somewhere else,

250
00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:57,560
Speaker 4: it was like, oh man, this is so eye opening.

251
00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:00,160
Speaker 4: It felt like I fell in love with someone else,

252
00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:02,400
Speaker 4: and that's why I fell out of love with my wife,

253
00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:04,920
Speaker 4: and I and I do struggle with wondering what could

254
00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:07,400
Speaker 4: have happened if I had tried harder or tried differently.

255
00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:10,560
Speaker 4: It's definitely something I like get pretty down on myself

256
00:14:10,599 --> 00:14:13,400
Speaker 4: about wondering what I could have done differently to make

257
00:14:13,879 --> 00:14:18,519
Speaker 4: this situation better for me and my ex rather than

258
00:14:18,599 --> 00:14:20,200
Speaker 4: but just I thing.

259
00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:22,800
Speaker 3: Guess somewhere else are the other eras in your life

260
00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:27,880
Speaker 3: in which you kind of feel unsatisfied but you really

261
00:14:27,879 --> 00:14:31,200
Speaker 3: struggle to know how to make things better or to

262
00:14:31,359 --> 00:14:35,440
Speaker 3: take the initiative because you seem to say, Okay, I settled.

263
00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:37,680
Speaker 3: Do you do that in other eras of your life?

264
00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:41,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, I guess so. So like in my career, I

265
00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:45,120
Speaker 4: am a classroom teacher. I don't have aspirations to do

266
00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:47,280
Speaker 4: much more with it. I don't want to be administrator,

267
00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:48,760
Speaker 4: I don't want to be a principal. So it's not

268
00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:52,840
Speaker 4: like I'm not unsatisfied, but I'm also not striving to

269
00:14:52,879 --> 00:14:55,600
Speaker 4: do anything more with it. I think that in a

270
00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:57,359
Speaker 4: certain way, that's kind of how I thought about the

271
00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:00,360
Speaker 4: marriage at first. Something about the two seemed similar to me,

272
00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:02,800
Speaker 4: like where I just kind of found myself going with

273
00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:06,159
Speaker 4: what I had rather than thinking about how I wanted

274
00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:07,239
Speaker 4: to change it, And.

275
00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:09,760
Speaker 3: Do you do that in other relationships and friendships? Accept

276
00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:12,200
Speaker 3: what there is and go with it rather than change it.

277
00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:12,640
Speaker 5: I guess.

278
00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:15,200
Speaker 3: So will you say all your friends have turned against.

279
00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:16,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, I might have lost lots of friendships, like my

280
00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:21,600
Speaker 4: best man in my wedding. Since September, we spent a

281
00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:24,440
Speaker 4: few months not talking. We got back in touch. We

282
00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:29,280
Speaker 4: were just talking about random stuff like combinistress, soccer, and

283
00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:33,320
Speaker 4: throughout some of my more negative times of feeling very

284
00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:37,800
Speaker 4: down and feeling just like really depressed about not having

285
00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:40,480
Speaker 4: custody of my kids, he just wasn't a supportive even

286
00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:42,120
Speaker 4: though he was willing to talk about soccer with me,

287
00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:43,480
Speaker 4: he wasn't a supportive person.

288
00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:45,080
Speaker 5: He didn't he didn't.

289
00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:46,600
Speaker 4: Try to care about how I was feeling or why

290
00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:48,960
Speaker 4: I was feeling it. I definitely felt like he thought

291
00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:51,239
Speaker 4: it was more like a well you made your decisions,

292
00:15:51,359 --> 00:15:54,680
Speaker 4: so live with them kind of thing. And even though

293
00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:57,160
Speaker 4: he was willing to be my friend, I think I'm

294
00:15:57,240 --> 00:15:59,239
Speaker 4: choosing not to be a part of that friendship more

295
00:15:59,280 --> 00:15:59,880
Speaker 4: than anything.

296
00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:02,720
Speaker 3: But have you said to him, for example, like, dude,

297
00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:05,279
Speaker 3: you are my best man, I really need your support

298
00:16:05,359 --> 00:16:07,720
Speaker 3: right now? Did you talk to him about the friendship

299
00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:08,600
Speaker 3: and fight for it.

300
00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:11,120
Speaker 4: I tried to start a few conversations, and each one

301
00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:14,720
Speaker 4: was met with some derision on his part of like

302
00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:17,120
Speaker 4: why can't you just let it go? And I said, like,

303
00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:20,119
Speaker 4: you're my best friend. I've never been in a darker

304
00:16:20,119 --> 00:16:23,200
Speaker 4: place that I am right now, and it wasn't met

305
00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:27,360
Speaker 4: with just compassion that I would have thought the friendship

306
00:16:27,359 --> 00:16:28,320
Speaker 4: would have carried with it.

307
00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:32,120
Speaker 1: You know what strikes me about that friendship and also

308
00:16:32,359 --> 00:16:36,240
Speaker 1: your first marriage when you were feeling really unhappy and unsatisfied,

309
00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:39,639
Speaker 1: is that I think what the other people didn't hear

310
00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:44,880
Speaker 1: was I understand where you're coming from too, And so

311
00:16:45,359 --> 00:16:49,080
Speaker 1: with your friend, he probably had a lot of feelings,

312
00:16:49,119 --> 00:16:51,800
Speaker 1: maybe based on rumor or maybe based on what actually happened.

313
00:16:52,119 --> 00:16:55,600
Speaker 1: Earlier in our conversation, you said, I feel a lot

314
00:16:55,640 --> 00:17:00,080
Speaker 1: of guilt around how I handled things, And I don't

315
00:17:00,119 --> 00:17:02,640
Speaker 1: know if you've ever really said that to your wife

316
00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:07,600
Speaker 1: about I understand that I didn't handle certain things really well,

317
00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:10,399
Speaker 1: but maybe you didn't like there was space for that,

318
00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:13,879
Speaker 1: or that it would be met with more blame. But

319
00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:16,959
Speaker 1: I don't know that your ex heard that, and I

320
00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:19,840
Speaker 1: don't know that your friends have heard that either, it

321
00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:21,320
Speaker 1: sounds like you were saying to your friend, I'm in

322
00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:24,000
Speaker 1: a really dark place. I'm really struggling, And I think

323
00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:26,640
Speaker 1: what your friend might have been hearing was I left

324
00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:28,560
Speaker 1: my wife, I left my kids and with the love

325
00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:33,679
Speaker 1: of my life, and I'm a victim, right And maybe

326
00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:37,000
Speaker 1: that isn't the place that your friend could meet you.

327
00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:39,760
Speaker 1: Maybe your friend could meet you in a place of

328
00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:43,760
Speaker 1: I know this is really complicated. I know that you

329
00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:46,280
Speaker 1: might not have a lot of sympathy from me right now.

330
00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:49,119
Speaker 1: I know that I did a lot of things wrong

331
00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:54,440
Speaker 1: and I didn't handle them well, and I can understand

332
00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:56,440
Speaker 1: why you might have the feelings that you have about me.

333
00:17:57,200 --> 00:17:59,239
Speaker 1: And at the same time, maybe we could have a

334
00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:04,439
Speaker 1: more nuanced conversation about how complicated the situation was. And

335
00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:08,320
Speaker 1: here's what I'm willing to take responsibility for, and also

336
00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:11,240
Speaker 1: here's where I'm struggle. I think that might be part

337
00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:14,519
Speaker 1: of the reason that people aren't able to have the

338
00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:16,279
Speaker 1: compassion for you that you do deserve.

339
00:18:17,879 --> 00:18:23,360
Speaker 4: Interesting, so that definitely sits well. Something I realize is that,

340
00:18:23,439 --> 00:18:29,720
Speaker 4: like ulmost like, perspective taking is not my natural instinct.

341
00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:32,000
Speaker 4: So I do know that, and I think I don't

342
00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:34,359
Speaker 4: think I tried hard enough to figure out where he was.

343
00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:38,600
Speaker 4: I have apologized or tried to apologize more than once

344
00:18:38,679 --> 00:18:41,000
Speaker 4: to my ex. I'd really tried to be as sincere

345
00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:43,800
Speaker 4: as possible at different times, just like, I'm so sorry

346
00:18:43,879 --> 00:18:46,840
Speaker 4: for this and for what happened, and for what this

347
00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:48,439
Speaker 4: brought to your life as well.

348
00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:51,879
Speaker 1: So there's a butt there already. I'm so sorry that

349
00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:56,400
Speaker 1: I ruined your life. But right, yeah, so I think

350
00:18:56,480 --> 00:18:57,959
Speaker 1: you hit it on the head right there when you

351
00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:00,520
Speaker 1: said perspective taking is a little bit of a challenge

352
00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:04,160
Speaker 1: for you. I wonder if right now you could tell

353
00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:07,600
Speaker 1: us the story of what happened solely from the perspective

354
00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:13,239
Speaker 1: of what your ex wife's experience might have been and

355
00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:17,200
Speaker 1: what it might still be without making you a terrible person.

356
00:19:17,439 --> 00:19:19,960
Speaker 1: Where the actions and then there's who the person is.

357
00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:22,560
Speaker 1: And I think that sometimes what gets in the way

358
00:19:22,639 --> 00:19:25,480
Speaker 1: perspective taking for people is when they feel like if

359
00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:29,760
Speaker 1: they take the other person's perspective, it's going to make

360
00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:33,080
Speaker 1: them seem like they are inherently a bad person, as

361
00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:36,799
Speaker 1: opposed to I did some things that were bad. So

362
00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:41,120
Speaker 1: could you tell us the story from your ex wife's perspective?

363
00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:43,560
Speaker 1: Tell us what the marriage was like for her.

364
00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:45,959
Speaker 3: Just before you do, Mike, just one thing to keep

365
00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:49,040
Speaker 3: in mind. This is a real exercise for you because

366
00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:53,720
Speaker 3: perspective taking is something you can improve, and so it's difficult,

367
00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:56,359
Speaker 3: but you actually have to put yourself in her shoes

368
00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:59,399
Speaker 3: and imagine it, and then from that place, try and

369
00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:02,960
Speaker 3: describe what you're seeing and feeling.

370
00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:06,879
Speaker 1: Start with the first person, her first person. So I

371
00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:09,119
Speaker 1: got married to my.

372
00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:19,360
Speaker 4: Okay, so I got married to Mike after a whirlwind

373
00:20:19,439 --> 00:20:24,519
Speaker 4: courtship in college. He was my first ever boyfriend, the

374
00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:29,000
Speaker 4: first relationship I had really had outside of my family.

375
00:20:29,159 --> 00:20:33,320
Speaker 1: What did you love about him?

376
00:20:33,399 --> 00:20:41,399
Speaker 4: It's okay to cry. Mike's not sure how to answer that,

377
00:20:41,439 --> 00:20:42,720
Speaker 4: but Mike's gonna try.

378
00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:45,920
Speaker 1: I let's give you your exit name. What's her name?

379
00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:46,719
Speaker 3: Elizabeth?

380
00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:50,359
Speaker 1: Okay, so we're talking to Elizabeth. Elizabeth? What did you

381
00:20:50,439 --> 00:20:51,159
Speaker 1: love about Mike?

382
00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:54,199
Speaker 5: He was fun.

383
00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:58,759
Speaker 4: He was different than other people who I sort of

384
00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:02,159
Speaker 4: been around and surrounded myself with. Had more of a

385
00:21:02,159 --> 00:21:04,959
Speaker 4: more whimsy, more of a way to bring humor to

386
00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:11,560
Speaker 4: a situation. He me was very committed and into me

387
00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:15,479
Speaker 4: and gave me a lot of attention, kind of like

388
00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:19,240
Speaker 4: made the relationship seemed to be the most important thing

389
00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:20,359
Speaker 4: in either of our lives.

390
00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:22,999
Speaker 1: You said it was a whirlwind courtship. What do you

391
00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:23,440
Speaker 1: mean by that?

392
00:21:23,639 --> 00:21:27,279
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean the first night we hung out together,

393
00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:30,799
Speaker 4: I can remember just like feeling so free, just like

394
00:21:30,919 --> 00:21:32,640
Speaker 4: walked down the middle of the street on the way

395
00:21:32,679 --> 00:21:34,200
Speaker 4: back for the bars with him.

396
00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:36,999
Speaker 5: I had been talking to my friend while I at

397
00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:40,720
Speaker 5: the bar, and she knew I liked Mike.

398
00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:44,719
Speaker 4: So when I got in to the apartment after he

399
00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:46,760
Speaker 4: kissed me good night, it was like a really special

400
00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:50,640
Speaker 4: thing and it was very exciting, just like from kind

401
00:21:50,639 --> 00:21:52,399
Speaker 4: of that point. On the next night we hung out

402
00:21:52,439 --> 00:21:54,080
Speaker 4: and pretty much.

403
00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:57,200
Speaker 3: Most nights after that. How did Mike propose?

404
00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:01,080
Speaker 5: Stupidly he got?

405
00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:04,519
Speaker 4: He proposed in the parking lot of Coals when we

406
00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:08,919
Speaker 4: were buying a vacuum for our first apartment. Did you

407
00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:10,800
Speaker 4: have a He did have a ring. It was a

408
00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:14,320
Speaker 4: family ring. Mike doesn't find a whole lot of value

409
00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:18,959
Speaker 4: in expensive jewelry and really appreciated not having to spend

410
00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:22,760
Speaker 4: a full paychecks on something. But there was a family

411
00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:24,959
Speaker 4: ring that I knew was meaningful to me. It was

412
00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:26,919
Speaker 4: meaningful to my mom, so he thought would be meaningful

413
00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:27,159
Speaker 4: to me.

414
00:22:27,439 --> 00:22:30,959
Speaker 1: Did you find the proposal romantic or did you feel

415
00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:33,080
Speaker 1: like it to feel like it wasn't really thought out?

416
00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:34,280
Speaker 5: I was really excited.

417
00:22:34,679 --> 00:22:37,639
Speaker 4: On hind sight, as I thought more about it in

418
00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:39,840
Speaker 4: the story, I think I would have rather would have

419
00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:44,040
Speaker 4: liked a better story to tell, But in the moment

420
00:22:44,159 --> 00:22:46,639
Speaker 4: it was it felt very him.

421
00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:52,399
Speaker 3: Did you say that to Mike that there might be

422
00:22:52,439 --> 00:22:56,480
Speaker 3: an opportunity for him to improve on that you mean

423
00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:02,280
Speaker 3: to propon a day to make a romantic I.

424
00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:04,280
Speaker 5: Never did, though.

425
00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:07,439
Speaker 4: I would have thought that he would have taken away

426
00:23:07,679 --> 00:23:10,320
Speaker 4: that from other things I had said and other things

427
00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:11,199
Speaker 4: I showed I valued.

428
00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:13,720
Speaker 1: What were some of the things you communicated to him

429
00:23:13,919 --> 00:23:17,359
Speaker 1: that would have maybe helped him to see that you

430
00:23:17,639 --> 00:23:20,159
Speaker 1: liked a little more thought to go into some of

431
00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:22,000
Speaker 1: these romantic gestures.

432
00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:25,600
Speaker 4: I'm not sure I could have said much. He's pretty

433
00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:28,119
Speaker 4: stubborn and opinions he has.

434
00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:30,240
Speaker 1: How did you try to communicate to him?

435
00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:35,400
Speaker 4: I wouldn't say I tried super hard, but Mike's very perceptive.

436
00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:40,239
Speaker 4: He thinks and took away from just other things that

437
00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:44,000
Speaker 4: he knew I would have valued just talking foldly about

438
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:47,759
Speaker 4: other people's stories of romanticism, and.

439
00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:51,119
Speaker 5: Mike probably thought I valued that.

440
00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:57,280
Speaker 3: So looking back now, when did you feel first, even

441
00:23:57,280 --> 00:23:59,679
Speaker 3: if you didn't realize it at the time, that Mike

442
00:23:59,879 --> 00:24:02,759
Speaker 3: was beginning to drift emotionally away from you.

443
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:06,800
Speaker 4: Well, then't very long after our first daughter was born.

444
00:24:07,639 --> 00:24:09,999
Speaker 4: I could tell how much he was into being a

445
00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:13,000
Speaker 4: father and how connected he was to our daughter.

446
00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:17,879
Speaker 5: And I could.

447
00:24:17,679 --> 00:24:20,960
Speaker 4: Tell it didn't translate to me in the same way

448
00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:24,840
Speaker 4: that there wasn't a connection between us because of her,

449
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:28,240
Speaker 4: that it almost felt like it was separate. And I

450
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:31,200
Speaker 4: guess I'll pause in a way to say, like, that's

451
00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:32,200
Speaker 4: what I feel happened.

452
00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:33,840
Speaker 1: So we want to stop you there. I'll tell you why,

453
00:24:34,399 --> 00:24:37,200
Speaker 1: because we really want to keep you in her perspective,

454
00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:41,160
Speaker 1: and I think that anytime you leave her perspective, you're

455
00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:47,240
Speaker 1: going to lose the important part of this exercise. Okay, Elizabeth,

456
00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:50,679
Speaker 1: When you were pregnant, how connected did you guys feel?

457
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:53,280
Speaker 1: Were you both really excited about having a child together.

458
00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:54,879
Speaker 1: What was the pregnancy like for you?

459
00:24:55,399 --> 00:24:58,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, we were very excited. He made it Every Sunday,

460
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:03,999
Speaker 4: we took pictures and he made a stop motion video

461
00:25:04,679 --> 00:25:08,159
Speaker 4: of my belly getting larger, and then we set up

462
00:25:08,159 --> 00:25:11,479
Speaker 4: a crane to come down from the balcony and he

463
00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:16,799
Speaker 4: wrote a song and sang a song to video, and

464
00:25:17,639 --> 00:25:20,119
Speaker 4: so every Sunday we would take these you know, have

465
00:25:20,159 --> 00:25:23,879
Speaker 4: a many pictures to create the time lapse, and so

466
00:25:23,919 --> 00:25:25,719
Speaker 4: it was something we were both very excited about.

467
00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:28,840
Speaker 3: So it sounded like at that stage you were still

468
00:25:28,879 --> 00:25:32,399
Speaker 3: thinking that you were included in that in some way,

469
00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:36,560
Speaker 3: and yet then after your daughter was born, you start

470
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:41,840
Speaker 3: to realize that actually it's more directed towards her and

471
00:25:41,919 --> 00:25:45,960
Speaker 3: not towards you. What did that feel like? That must

472
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:46,640
Speaker 3: have been painful.

473
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:49,560
Speaker 5: Probably, I think it was easy to.

474
00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:54,280
Speaker 4: Not look it directly in the face because of how

475
00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:57,439
Speaker 4: my of just my own excitement and taking care of

476
00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:00,159
Speaker 4: a young child put a lot of my energy into

477
00:26:00,159 --> 00:26:02,320
Speaker 4: that and put a lot of pressure on myself to

478
00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:05,440
Speaker 4: do everything right as a mother, and I think that

479
00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:09,879
Speaker 4: took away some of my attention to my feeling about

480
00:26:09,919 --> 00:26:11,159
Speaker 4: my relationship with Mike.

481
00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:14,680
Speaker 3: And yet there must have been moments where you felt it.

482
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:17,359
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, there were there were. Yeah.

483
00:26:17,439 --> 00:26:21,919
Speaker 4: I specifically asked one of my cousins who I'm close

484
00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:25,160
Speaker 4: with were the same age if he also felt lonely,

485
00:26:25,679 --> 00:26:29,760
Speaker 4: because I was feeling very lonely and that stage in

486
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:32,800
Speaker 4: my life, I guess I was six months after.

487
00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:36,720
Speaker 5: Or a year after I thought I was born when

488
00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:37,200
Speaker 5: I asked my.

489
00:26:37,159 --> 00:26:39,239
Speaker 1: Cousin that, How did Mike know that you asked your

490
00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:40,239
Speaker 1: cousin about this?

491
00:26:41,639 --> 00:26:45,359
Speaker 4: I told him after he told me he wanted to

492
00:26:45,439 --> 00:26:47,719
Speaker 4: leave me. Mike and I had a lot of conversation

493
00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:52,240
Speaker 4: between when he dropped that bobshell on me and when

494
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:56,760
Speaker 4: our ability to communicate broke down. I tricked myself into

495
00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:58,879
Speaker 4: feeling like it was actually for the better that we

496
00:26:58,879 --> 00:27:00,439
Speaker 4: were separating, and that we would be.

497
00:27:00,399 --> 00:27:05,200
Speaker 5: A better apart. So I think he held me back

498
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:06,080
Speaker 5: in a certain way.

499
00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:10,040
Speaker 4: I think he had a pretty overbearing personal and.

500
00:27:11,439 --> 00:27:12,280
Speaker 5: I don't think.

501
00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:16,200
Speaker 4: I wanted to rock the boat enough or cared enough

502
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:21,160
Speaker 4: to kind of like assert my own opinions into the relationship.

503
00:27:21,439 --> 00:27:23,800
Speaker 3: But were you not thinking that you were going to

504
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:24,679
Speaker 3: be together forever?

505
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:28,119
Speaker 5: I was? I was until the end.

506
00:27:28,159 --> 00:27:28,519
Speaker 3: I was.

507
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:34,240
Speaker 4: Once we had kids and then had another, I thought

508
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:35,639
Speaker 4: it was going to be foregone conclusion.

509
00:27:36,919 --> 00:27:39,520
Speaker 1: How did you and Mike talk about having a second kid,

510
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:44,200
Speaker 1: given that you were feeling disconnected and you were feeling

511
00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 1: like Mike was more invested in your daughter than in you.

512
00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:49,359
Speaker 1: Did you want that, Elizabeth?

513
00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:51,199
Speaker 5: I did.

514
00:27:51,639 --> 00:27:54,320
Speaker 4: I'm the oldest of two girls, and me and my

515
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 4: sister are really close, so you know, through our whole relationship, two.

516
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:01,479
Speaker 5: Kids was kind of what we thought we were going

517
00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:02,920
Speaker 5: to have, So.

518
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:05,959
Speaker 4: After the first was born, it was almost like an ongoing,

519
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:09,919
Speaker 4: kind of unspoken mostly then spoken thing, Well, when are

520
00:28:09,919 --> 00:28:10,999
Speaker 4: we going to have another one?

521
00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:14,359
Speaker 3: The fact that Mike wanted to have another child must

522
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:17,400
Speaker 3: have reassured you that he was invested in the marriage,

523
00:28:17,439 --> 00:28:20,320
Speaker 3: that he cared enough about you that he wanted to

524
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 3: expand the family. That must have given you some hope.

525
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:26,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, I bet it was easy to feel that way.

526
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:29,960
Speaker 1: Did you feel romantically connected to Mike? What was your

527
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:31,919
Speaker 1: intimate life like?

528
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:39,880
Speaker 5: You have different ways of expressing affection for people.

529
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:42,640
Speaker 1: I think how did you express affection for him?

530
00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 5: The affection was very much driven by Mike.

531
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:50,840
Speaker 4: And when I started to lessen, I didn't even notice

532
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 4: until it was nearly gone.

533
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:57,200
Speaker 1: And when it was nearly gone, did you say anything

534
00:28:57,320 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 1: or did you miss it?

535
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:01,640
Speaker 5: I didn't say anything.

536
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 1: Did you miss it? Did you feel hurt?

537
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:06,720
Speaker 5: It added to feelings of blondiness I had had.

538
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:10,360
Speaker 3: You were really expecting that this was a relationship that

539
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:14,560
Speaker 3: would go on have its ups and downs. Tell us

540
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:18,240
Speaker 3: about when that bubble burst tell us about the Bumpshell.

541
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:23,560
Speaker 4: I knew that Mike had something going on. He was

542
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:27,959
Speaker 4: drinking more. There was something very clearly between us that

543
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:30,479
Speaker 4: we're kind of skirting a certain issue of just like

544
00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 4: general unhappiness, and I was sharing in him my general

545
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:35,080
Speaker 4: uh happiness as well.

546
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:38,039
Speaker 5: And when we expressed loneliness.

547
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 1: In each other and weeth what happened when you would

548
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 1: express your unhappiness and loneliness to Mike? How did he

549
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:47,160
Speaker 1: respond to you.

550
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 5: By putting it on the relationship? What did that look

551
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:53,080
Speaker 5: like like?

552
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:58,000
Speaker 4: Acting like a yeah, see kind of thing? We are

553
00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:01,240
Speaker 4: both lonely. Looking back on it feels easy to see

554
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:04,000
Speaker 4: that Mike was kind of like setting.

555
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:06,440
Speaker 3: Up Mike might have been Elizabeth. But when you were

556
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:11,479
Speaker 3: sharing yours, When most people do that, what they hope

557
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:15,640
Speaker 3: is for the other person to reach the gap, is

558
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 3: to reach across the gulf. It's usually a request to

559
00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:25,280
Speaker 3: get closer. So what you were doing was asking him

560
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:26,760
Speaker 3: to get closer.

561
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:29,960
Speaker 5: I'm not sure it seemed like to Mike, and that's

562
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 5: what I was doing.

563
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 3: Perhaps not that's what you were doing.

564
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:42,040
Speaker 1: We call those making bids, right, you were making a

565
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 1: bid for some kind of connection. And when you would

566
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:52,440
Speaker 1: make a bid for connection. He would say, this is

567
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,719
Speaker 1: why the relationship is doomed. What did that feel like

568
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:56,120
Speaker 1: to you?

569
00:30:58,400 --> 00:30:58,840
Speaker 5: I don't know.

570
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:01,920
Speaker 1: Let me ask the question differently. So remember that guy

571
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 1: with the whirlwind courtship, the guy that was so fun

572
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:12,759
Speaker 1: as and he felt so attentive and he really loved

573
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:18,999
Speaker 1: you and you were so excited to marry him. What

574
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:21,559
Speaker 1: did that feel like when the person you love that

575
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:25,440
Speaker 1: much and that you're trying to reconnect with won't engage

576
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 1: with you lonely?

577
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:40,680
Speaker 5: Probably felt a little, I don't know, untethered to anything.

578
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:46,479
Speaker 3: Elizabeth. You just had two kids, and you talk to

579
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:48,600
Speaker 3: your friends and they tell you, yeah, it's a rough

580
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 3: patch that happens. But the way you think, Elizabeth, it's

581
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:56,280
Speaker 3: like the foundation of it is that we're going to

582
00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 3: be together forever. That's how I see my life. That's

583
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:04,680
Speaker 3: how I see my world. And then you expressed the

584
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:09,200
Speaker 3: mic that you need to reconnect again, that you're feeling alone,

585
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:13,360
Speaker 3: and you're sure that he'll say yo, yah, me too,

586
00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 3: and let's really try and spend more time on us

587
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:20,440
Speaker 3: or do something. And he's not making you feel more loved.

588
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:25,160
Speaker 3: He's suddenly making you feel that foundation that you had

589
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:31,080
Speaker 3: crafted your whole life and future around wasn't stable and

590
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:34,920
Speaker 3: that's your life. So what was that like?

591
00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 5: World changing?

592
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:45,680
Speaker 3: It was not changing. It's collapsing, Elizabeth. That feels very

593
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:47,120
Speaker 3: different than the world changing.

594
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:55,400
Speaker 7: It's collapsing or collapsing, falling apart. What is that like

595
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:58,880
Speaker 7: when everything that you care about is falling apart.

596
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:02,680
Speaker 5: The worst?

597
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:07,560
Speaker 3: Did Mike see how painful that was for you?

598
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:13,400
Speaker 5: I'm not sure. He showed that he cared a whole lot.

599
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:19,200
Speaker 3: Wow, that must have been rough.

600
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 5: He seems so focused on this next part of his

601
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:26,080
Speaker 5: life that he wanted.

602
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:30,600
Speaker 3: So what was that like? Your foundation that you've built,

603
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:34,640
Speaker 3: your hopes and dreams, one is collapsing and Mike has

604
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:39,280
Speaker 3: just focused on his next move and leaving you with

605
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 3: the wreckage.

606
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:48,640
Speaker 5: However, many synonyms that mean really, really, really.

607
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:57,040
Speaker 6: Hard, and try a few. You're a teacher, you have

608
00:33:57,040 --> 00:33:58,920
Speaker 6: at Cabulary Science Teachers.

609
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:02,160
Speaker 1: Your letter to us was so articulate about your own feelings.

610
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:04,520
Speaker 1: Our listeners can't see this, but I see the tears

611
00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:08,760
Speaker 1: in your eyes, and I know that you're feeling something

612
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:13,160
Speaker 1: as you go into Elizabeth's experience, and so I know

613
00:34:13,240 --> 00:34:14,279
Speaker 1: you have words.

614
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:17,040
Speaker 5: It's guilt. It's guilt. I've held on.

615
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:19,759
Speaker 1: I think you might have some guilt, and we hear

616
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:21,719
Speaker 1: that in your letter, but I also think that you

617
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:25,840
Speaker 1: have something more than that, which is empathy. And I

618
00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:29,719
Speaker 1: think that the reason that you're feeling the guilt is

619
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:36,000
Speaker 1: because you can empathize with Elizabeth's experience. So this isn't

620
00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:39,120
Speaker 1: intended to make you feel more guilty. It's actually intended

621
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:41,840
Speaker 1: to make both of you more at peace and to

622
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:45,440
Speaker 1: move forward in a different way. So if you can

623
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:48,400
Speaker 1: get out of the I'm a bad person because Elizabeth

624
00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:51,800
Speaker 1: feels bad and I can't tolerate contemplating how bad I

625
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 1: made Elizabeth feel, then nothing will change in terms of

626
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:01,040
Speaker 1: what happens in the future. And I feel most sad

627
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:02,920
Speaker 1: in that instance for your daughters.

628
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 5: Yeah too, So let's.

629
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:08,640
Speaker 1: Look at how you can understand a little bit more

630
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:13,600
Speaker 1: about that moment for Elizabeth. So, Elizabeth, first, you try

631
00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:16,720
Speaker 1: to talk to Mike about this gulf that you're feeling

632
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:19,200
Speaker 1: in the marriage and the relationship. And you love this

633
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:23,840
Speaker 1: guy so much you want that connection back, and he's

634
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:29,360
Speaker 1: being very cold and distant and not engaging and not

635
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:33,520
Speaker 1: working as a partner with you. On Yes, I feel

636
00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:36,160
Speaker 1: lonely too, and let's talk about this. That was not

637
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:39,880
Speaker 1: what you got, even though you suspected that you were

638
00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:43,640
Speaker 1: both having very similar feelings. And then at some point

639
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:46,840
Speaker 1: you hear this news. Can you tell us how you

640
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:47,600
Speaker 1: got that news?

641
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:53,280
Speaker 4: It was just a Thursday night after Yeah, he actually

642
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:55,280
Speaker 4: went to his first therapy appointment that week.

643
00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:57,000
Speaker 3: He must have been hopeful.

644
00:35:57,040 --> 00:35:57,200
Speaker 4: Then.

645
00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:01,000
Speaker 3: People at are often hopeful in the husband whose distant

646
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:03,520
Speaker 3: goes to therapy. They think, oh, he'll come back now.

647
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:06,640
Speaker 4: It felt like he can't talk to me about whatever

648
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:08,640
Speaker 4: he's going through. But I'm happy is someone to talk to.

649
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:09,160
Speaker 3: You about it.

650
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:10,960
Speaker 1: How did the therapy happen for Mike?

651
00:36:11,720 --> 00:36:13,680
Speaker 4: He just told me one day I made a therapy

652
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:18,760
Speaker 4: appointment and it was he told me he made it

653
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:21,280
Speaker 4: before the birth of our second child. But then he

654
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:24,759
Speaker 4: the first appointment wasn't until a month later.

655
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:28,120
Speaker 1: So you were hopeful that he would start to understand

656
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:30,760
Speaker 1: more about maybe what was going on.

657
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:34,320
Speaker 3: With him m hm, and therefore be closer come back

658
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:38,360
Speaker 3: to you more. Yeah, Tursday night he comes back and

659
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:40,000
Speaker 3: tell us we put our older.

660
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 1: Daughter to bed, and where's your newborn.

661
00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:47,840
Speaker 5: Asleep? Okay on a pillow.

662
00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:51,040
Speaker 1: So in the room where you guys are having the conversation.

663
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:57,440
Speaker 4: He sat down on the couch and throughout looking at me,

664
00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:02,480
Speaker 4: he just said, I'm in love with somebody else. I

665
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:03,920
Speaker 4: don't think we can be together anymore.

666
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:12,720
Speaker 3: Wow, Well, how did you feel first? But it was

667
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:14,200
Speaker 3: going through your body.

668
00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:21,120
Speaker 4: A lot of physical reaction to shock. Just wanted to cry,

669
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:26,440
Speaker 4: but I couldn't really cry. I wanted to ask a

670
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:28,680
Speaker 4: million questions, but didn't have the didn't know what questions

671
00:37:28,720 --> 00:37:34,480
Speaker 4: to ask. Asked him who it was, wasn't super surprised

672
00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:35,200
Speaker 4: about who it was.

673
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:39,040
Speaker 3: And you realized that this was going on while you

674
00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:39,640
Speaker 3: were pregnant.

675
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:45,800
Speaker 1: Remember in the first pregnancy, howke did that time lapse

676
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:50,800
Speaker 1: and was so invested in the baby? Was he involved

677
00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:53,840
Speaker 1: in that way with the second pregnancy while he was

678
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:55,239
Speaker 1: having this other relationship.

679
00:37:56,520 --> 00:38:00,480
Speaker 4: He's always so invested in our other daughter. That seems

680
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:05,720
Speaker 4: we were his focus was throughout the second pregnancy. But

681
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:08,320
Speaker 4: it didn't feel the same as the first pregnancy. Didn't

682
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:10,280
Speaker 4: feel the same connection between us.

683
00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:13,600
Speaker 3: So here we are. It's a month, you've just given birth.

684
00:38:13,720 --> 00:38:19,920
Speaker 3: You have a newborn right there. Your husband just came

685
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:22,520
Speaker 3: back from therapy, and you're thinking, Okay, maybe this is

686
00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:26,680
Speaker 3: the start of us reconnecting and becoming a real family again.

687
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:30,360
Speaker 3: And he tells you that he's in love with someone else,

688
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:34,560
Speaker 3: and you know who it is, and it makes sense

689
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:38,760
Speaker 3: to you. And in that moment, what is it you're realizing.

690
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:43,840
Speaker 5: Hopeless? How can I do this with that myself?

691
00:38:44,240 --> 00:38:46,720
Speaker 3: What is it you feel when your whole world is

692
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:58,920
Speaker 3: just being taken away from you? It's more than hopeless. Yeah,

693
00:38:59,240 --> 00:39:01,400
Speaker 3: I'm gonna say this to Mike. Now, you're stuck in

694
00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:04,040
Speaker 3: your head that if you really describe how she feels,

695
00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:06,600
Speaker 3: it makes you the bad person who made her feel

696
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:10,320
Speaker 3: that way, and that's stopping you from kind of to

697
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:13,440
Speaker 3: what her experience was. So you have to be able

698
00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:18,320
Speaker 3: to allow yourself to go there without feeling that it

699
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:22,520
Speaker 3: demonizes you because this is her perspective now, it's not yours.

700
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:25,640
Speaker 4: I'm just having trouble describing what I know would be

701
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:30,640
Speaker 4: probably one of the worst feelings to have. I can't

702
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:33,920
Speaker 4: possibly know what it felt like to be her last spring,

703
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:39,760
Speaker 4: but I do know that.

704
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:40,240
Speaker 5: She had an incredibly hard time.

705
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:44,240
Speaker 1: See, I think you can imagine what it was like

706
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:45,400
Speaker 1: to be her last spring.

707
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:49,759
Speaker 5: Having trouble right now that anyway, So let's just.

708
00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:52,640
Speaker 1: Notice that for now, just notice that that's a challenge

709
00:39:52,720 --> 00:39:55,720
Speaker 1: right now, and that's going to be part of the

710
00:39:55,840 --> 00:40:02,040
Speaker 1: challenge going forward, where like with your friend, like with Elizabeth,

711
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:07,400
Speaker 1: where if they don't see the entirety of who you are,

712
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:10,960
Speaker 1: they are only going to see this demonized version of you,

713
00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:15,720
Speaker 1: because we see in this conversation how much empathy you

714
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:20,200
Speaker 1: do have for her, how much you were actually able

715
00:40:20,240 --> 00:40:22,640
Speaker 1: to what we call mentalize, which is to get into

716
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:26,960
Speaker 1: the emotional space of the other person. So we know

717
00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:31,040
Speaker 1: you have that capacity. But I think because it makes

718
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:37,000
Speaker 1: you really uncomfortable to acknowledge to yourself how much discomfort

719
00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:39,360
Speaker 1: and hurt and pain you may have caused other people

720
00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:43,560
Speaker 1: that you're not able to own up to that. Saying

721
00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:49,080
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, but is not what will help you move forward,

722
00:40:49,240 --> 00:40:52,640
Speaker 1: or Elizabeth move forward, or your kids eventually make sense

723
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:55,400
Speaker 1: of this in a way that works well for you, guys,

724
00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:56,160
Speaker 1: as a family.

725
00:40:57,000 --> 00:41:01,000
Speaker 4: It felt incredibly unfair to be me as Elizabeth. It's unfair.

726
00:41:01,240 --> 00:41:03,360
Speaker 4: I had done everything right up to that point. I

727
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:06,480
Speaker 4: got married, I had a house, I had kids, I

728
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:08,840
Speaker 4: had a husband who I thought loved me, and here

729
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:11,719
Speaker 4: I am, I'm thirty years old, and I can't even

730
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 4: imagine what my life was going to look like a

731
00:41:14,720 --> 00:41:16,880
Speaker 4: month from now, a year from now, five years from now.

732
00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:20,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, And there's the other piece of she loves you,

733
00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:22,799
Speaker 1: and there's the heartbreak part of it too. And we're

734
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:24,760
Speaker 1: not saying that Elizabeth didn't have a role in as

735
00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:27,680
Speaker 1: clearly as we saw she did. You know, she may

736
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:29,720
Speaker 1: have tried in her way to bring things up, but

737
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:32,840
Speaker 1: neither of you knew how to communicate. I think if

738
00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:39,240
Speaker 1: Elizabeth was on this call, she would feel this relief of,

739
00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:44,280
Speaker 1: oh wow, he can see me. He understands something about

740
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:48,040
Speaker 1: why this was so devastating for me in a way

741
00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:51,920
Speaker 1: that you've never expressed to her before. And there's something

742
00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:55,520
Speaker 1: as humans where what we really need is I see you,

743
00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:59,400
Speaker 1: I hear you, I understand you. Doesn't make it all better,

744
00:41:59,920 --> 00:42:03,680
Speaker 1: doesn't change whatever feeling she's going to have, but there's

745
00:42:03,720 --> 00:42:07,440
Speaker 1: something that shifts in the dynamic between the two of

746
00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:11,800
Speaker 1: you when someone says, oh, wow, you get it. This

747
00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:16,799
Speaker 1: was how I felt, and you can see that. There's

748
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:18,520
Speaker 1: something so healing about that.

749
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:23,680
Speaker 3: And the healing, Mike depends on you getting it right

750
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:26,520
Speaker 3: so that she really feels that you get it, and

751
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:28,440
Speaker 3: that could be really useful to you both to school

752
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:30,080
Speaker 3: payments going forward, and to.

753
00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:31,440
Speaker 5: You, Yeah, I hear you.

754
00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:35,360
Speaker 4: I just having lived the relationship now from what it

755
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:37,480
Speaker 4: is for the last however many months, so it's been

756
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:41,440
Speaker 4: so negative that we can barely communicate. I don't know

757
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:45,120
Speaker 4: if she's even in a place to hear from me

758
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:52,160
Speaker 4: in that way.

759
00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:59,240
Speaker 1: So we have some thoughts. We know this was probably

760
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:00,200
Speaker 1: a hard conversation.

761
00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:01,840
Speaker 5: It really really was.

762
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:04,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, And the reason is we only had this short

763
00:43:04,720 --> 00:43:07,600
Speaker 1: time with you, and we really want to help you

764
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:14,080
Speaker 1: feel better going forward. And that doesn't mean that feeling

765
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:16,640
Speaker 1: better is going to be us saying you're not a scumback.

766
00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:18,680
Speaker 1: But I will say you're not a scumback, which is

767
00:43:18,720 --> 00:43:21,360
Speaker 1: what you asked in your letter, But we don't think

768
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:23,240
Speaker 1: that's actually going to be that helpful to you to

769
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:25,560
Speaker 1: hear it from us. What we think is going to

770
00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:28,600
Speaker 1: be more helpful is if you can work more on

771
00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:33,560
Speaker 1: that perspective taking so that people can see that you

772
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:38,520
Speaker 1: understand their experience as well, and also that you own,

773
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:43,440
Speaker 1: without butts, without exceptions, that you owned your part in it.

774
00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:47,760
Speaker 1: You had reasons for doing what you did, but in hindsight,

775
00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:50,680
Speaker 1: I think you can see that there were also ways

776
00:43:50,720 --> 00:43:52,960
Speaker 1: that you handled it that maybe going forward you wouldn't

777
00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:55,880
Speaker 1: handle a similar situation. What it does is it says

778
00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:59,360
Speaker 1: I'm more aware and I really feel for you, and

779
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:02,800
Speaker 1: whether it matters to them or not, that you've expressed

780
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:05,680
Speaker 1: that to them, and it's not just a general I'm sorry,

781
00:44:06,240 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 1: but it's what we were doing earlier. Wow, Now I

782
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:12,560
Speaker 1: really see how this must have felt and how you

783
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:13,360
Speaker 1: feel now.

784
00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:19,160
Speaker 3: Would like you to write a letter that explains from

785
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:24,880
Speaker 3: Elizabeth's point of view, what her experience was and what

786
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:29,640
Speaker 3: the consequences of your action were from her perspective. But

787
00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:31,600
Speaker 3: here's how I want you to do it. I know

788
00:44:31,720 --> 00:44:34,720
Speaker 3: perspective taking is difficult for you. I want you to

789
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:39,920
Speaker 3: start by explaining your perspective by saying that you realize

790
00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:45,440
Speaker 3: you shouldn't have probably married, that it wasn't as big

791
00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:49,400
Speaker 3: a love as it might have been. That you realized

792
00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:52,759
Speaker 3: that when you found real love that that wasn't enough.

793
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:55,680
Speaker 3: You kind of knew it and suspected it, but you

794
00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:58,719
Speaker 3: realized it later on. So I want you to kind

795
00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:02,040
Speaker 3: of set up your side of things in the first part,

796
00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:06,480
Speaker 3: and then I want you to write only her part

797
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:09,680
Speaker 3: of things, and then you describe what happened and you

798
00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:13,120
Speaker 3: describe the impact on her, what she must have felt,

799
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:15,840
Speaker 3: what it must have been like, all the stuff we

800
00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:18,880
Speaker 3: did in that exercise, and then I want you, when

801
00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:23,080
Speaker 3: you're done, to take out that first part so that

802
00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:26,160
Speaker 3: it's not part of the letter. It's important for you

803
00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:28,760
Speaker 3: to write it because you tend to get blocked with

804
00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:31,759
Speaker 3: a perspective taking because you keep wanting to explain your part.

805
00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:33,320
Speaker 3: So I want you to start that way so you

806
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:35,760
Speaker 3: have it all there, but then take it out because

807
00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:37,200
Speaker 3: that's not the point of the letter. The point of

808
00:45:37,240 --> 00:45:40,160
Speaker 3: the letter is to be able to show her and

809
00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:43,640
Speaker 3: perhaps your best man, that you really get it.

810
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:47,000
Speaker 1: And again you worry that they're going to say, see,

811
00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:49,000
Speaker 1: you are a scumback. I think it's going to be

812
00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:52,640
Speaker 1: the opposite. When you're writing it, you're not making the

813
00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:55,120
Speaker 1: case that you're not a scumback, but that you did

814
00:45:55,200 --> 00:46:00,400
Speaker 1: mishandle things. Here's your opportunity to show them that you

815
00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:03,360
Speaker 1: can take their perspective and that you do own the

816
00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:04,720
Speaker 1: parts of it that were yours.

817
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:07,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, Mikeie was good to talk to you, and we

818
00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:08,880
Speaker 3: really do Isshue the best.

819
00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:10,760
Speaker 5: You guys to take care of Mike.

820
00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:12,600
Speaker 1: We look forward to hearing back from you, Okay.

821
00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:12,840
Speaker 5: Take care.

822
00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:18,720
Speaker 3: So Lurie, what do you think is going to happen.

823
00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:22,720
Speaker 1: I think he's in a really tricky place right now,

824
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:26,160
Speaker 1: and I think that the advice that we gave him

825
00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:28,360
Speaker 1: will serve him more in the long term than in

826
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:31,800
Speaker 1: the short term. I don't think he's going to actually

827
00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:33,880
Speaker 1: give these letters to his ex or to his friend,

828
00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:38,600
Speaker 1: but he do think having that perspective taking exercise will

829
00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:42,719
Speaker 1: help him with how he negotiates things with his ex wife,

830
00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:46,600
Speaker 1: how he negotiates his friendships going forward, how he negotiates

831
00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:49,280
Speaker 1: his new relationship, and also how he is as a

832
00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:52,040
Speaker 1: parent as he spends more time with his children.

833
00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:54,840
Speaker 3: I agree. I think maybe he'll give it to the friend.

834
00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:57,720
Speaker 3: But we know his therapists that when we suggest people

835
00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:01,480
Speaker 3: write letters, really we're in it for the writing. In

836
00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:04,640
Speaker 3: other words, what you gain you gain in the writing.

837
00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:08,320
Speaker 3: So I hope that he gives us a try, and

838
00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:09,840
Speaker 3: I do think it'll be at him in the long

839
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:10,760
Speaker 3: tim if he can do it.

840
00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:16,920
Speaker 1: This is dear therapist, and we'll be back after a

841
00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:17,560
Speaker 1: short break.

842
00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:25,920
Speaker 3: I'm Guy Wench.

843
00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:29,920
Speaker 1: And I'm Lori Gottlieb, and this is dear therapist. Well,

844
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:31,160
Speaker 1: let's listen to the voicemail.

845
00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:35,560
Speaker 4: So I wrote two letters this morning, one to who

846
00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:39,440
Speaker 4: my best man was and one to my ex. It's

847
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:43,719
Speaker 4: hard to describe the experience. I chose not to take

848
00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:46,000
Speaker 4: one part of your advice. I did not write my

849
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:50,240
Speaker 4: own perspective down before writing what I thought was theirs.

850
00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:54,280
Speaker 4: I felt this morning that I focused too much on

851
00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:57,240
Speaker 4: my own perspective and I was trying to move beyond

852
00:47:57,280 --> 00:47:59,719
Speaker 4: it and trying to find THEIRS without needing to name

853
00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:06,080
Speaker 4: mine first. Ultimately, I cried a lot while writing the

854
00:48:06,160 --> 00:48:09,320
Speaker 4: letter to my ex in the same way I felt

855
00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:12,960
Speaker 4: the experience while I was describing it. I don't want

856
00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:15,680
Speaker 4: to lose sight of the negative feelings that I cost her.

857
00:48:15,720 --> 00:48:17,560
Speaker 4: I just hope that at some point you can forgive

858
00:48:17,640 --> 00:48:21,240
Speaker 4: me for those negative feelings. And yeah, just for the

859
00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:24,960
Speaker 4: sake of our daughters, if nothing else. I sent the

860
00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:29,000
Speaker 4: email to my best friend a lot shorter, ad as

861
00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:32,280
Speaker 4: many details, but I did want him to see that

862
00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:36,000
Speaker 4: I had not been thinking of his perspective much at all,

863
00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:39,480
Speaker 4: and I hope you can hear that, and especially when

864
00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:41,120
Speaker 4: it comes to the pressure I was putting on him

865
00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:44,520
Speaker 4: to feel and think a certain way about my life,

866
00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:48,240
Speaker 4: as I was just desperately seeking his understanding.

867
00:48:55,360 --> 00:48:59,440
Speaker 3: I am super impressed with Mike because what comes across

868
00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:02,760
Speaker 3: from his voicemail is this whole idea of perspective taking.

869
00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:05,480
Speaker 3: He really took them on board, and I'm hopeful that

870
00:49:05,560 --> 00:49:08,120
Speaker 3: he's looking at relationships slightly differently and is going to

871
00:49:08,440 --> 00:49:10,160
Speaker 3: conduct himself to be going forward.

872
00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:13,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was incredibly impressed with what he did. I

873
00:49:13,360 --> 00:49:16,440
Speaker 1: think it was really hard for him, for anybody it

874
00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:20,000
Speaker 1: would be to come into this situation at the place

875
00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:22,520
Speaker 1: that he was. We were very hard on him in

876
00:49:22,560 --> 00:49:25,200
Speaker 1: that session because we only had a certain amount of

877
00:49:25,200 --> 00:49:30,600
Speaker 1: time with him, and sometimes people aren't able to take

878
00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:33,320
Speaker 1: in what you're giving them when you move that quickly,

879
00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:35,480
Speaker 1: and so in a therapy session, we would not move

880
00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:36,040
Speaker 1: that quickly.

881
00:49:36,160 --> 00:49:37,120
Speaker 3: It would be weeks of.

882
00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:40,680
Speaker 1: That months right exactly. So it was really interesting to

883
00:49:40,720 --> 00:49:43,000
Speaker 1: see that, even though at the end of that call

884
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:46,600
Speaker 1: he seemed at bit deflated, he really took in what

885
00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:50,160
Speaker 1: we said, and so much to the point that he

886
00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:54,360
Speaker 1: decided not even to include his own perspective because he realized,

887
00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:57,960
Speaker 1: I have trouble taking other people's perspective. Now. Of course,

888
00:49:58,040 --> 00:50:00,360
Speaker 1: we want him to keep his perspective. We don't ever

889
00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:04,040
Speaker 1: want someone to lose their own perspective. But I think

890
00:50:04,080 --> 00:50:07,400
Speaker 1: that he was realizing that the exercise would be easier

891
00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:10,400
Speaker 1: for him in this instance if he did it that way.

892
00:50:10,920 --> 00:50:13,160
Speaker 1: And the one thing that I want to say, if

893
00:50:13,160 --> 00:50:16,080
Speaker 1: he's listening to this, is that he said, I hope

894
00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:18,320
Speaker 1: that they'll forgive me. And what I want to say is, Mike,

895
00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:21,440
Speaker 1: I hope that you will forgive yourself. That that's the

896
00:50:21,480 --> 00:50:23,240
Speaker 1: place we want to get him too, that once he

897
00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:27,120
Speaker 1: can take this other perspective, that eventually he will come

898
00:50:27,160 --> 00:50:31,640
Speaker 1: to a place of forgiving himself as well, and I

899
00:50:31,680 --> 00:50:33,920
Speaker 1: think then he will be able to really move forward.

900
00:50:34,200 --> 00:50:36,360
Speaker 3: I agree, and I think that what's lovely to hear

901
00:50:36,480 --> 00:50:40,240
Speaker 3: is when we're telling someone that there's an important part

902
00:50:40,320 --> 00:50:43,720
Speaker 3: of life that is not appearing on their radar, and

903
00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:46,320
Speaker 3: then they respond in a way that indicates that it's

904
00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:49,640
Speaker 3: now appearing on their radar. It gives us as therapists,

905
00:50:49,720 --> 00:50:58,840
Speaker 3: and for Mike, a lot of hope. That brings us

906
00:50:58,840 --> 00:51:00,880
Speaker 3: to the end of our show for this week. Thank

907
00:51:00,920 --> 00:51:02,040
Speaker 3: you so much for listening.

908
00:51:02,160 --> 00:51:05,480
Speaker 1: You can follow us both online. I'm at lorigottlieb dot

909
00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:08,759
Speaker 1: com and you can follow me on Twitter at Lorigottlieb One.

910
00:51:09,320 --> 00:51:12,880
Speaker 1: We're on Instagram at Lorigottlieb Underscore Author.

911
00:51:12,840 --> 00:51:16,080
Speaker 3: And I'm at Guywinch dot com. I'm on Twitter and

912
00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:19,640
Speaker 3: on Instagram at guy Wench. If you have a dilemma

913
00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:22,520
Speaker 3: you'd like to discuss with us, big or small, email

914
00:51:22,640 --> 00:51:25,920
Speaker 3: us at Lorianguy at iHeartMedia dot com.

915
00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:30,239
Speaker 1: Our executive producers Christopher Hasiotis, were produced and edited by

916
00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:34,280
Speaker 1: Mike Johns. Special thanks to Samuel Benefield and to our

917
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:36,760
Speaker 1: podcast Fairy Godmother Katie Couric.

918
00:51:37,160 --> 00:51:41,720
Speaker 3: Next week. There's no real estate adage that goes location, location, location,

919
00:51:42,040 --> 00:51:44,200
Speaker 3: We'll talk about how that applies in a marriage.

920
00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:46,640
Speaker 1: I think I said many times I never want to

921
00:51:46,640 --> 00:51:49,280
Speaker 1: live in Omaha cover and I said I'd never want

922
00:51:49,280 --> 00:51:53,320
Speaker 1: to live in New York, and we did both. Dear

923
00:51:53,400 --> 00:51:56,280
Speaker 1: Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio