1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:13,640 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:16,880 Speaker 1: I'm Holly Fry and I'm Tracy Vie Wilson. And uh, 4 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:21,520 Speaker 1: this is of course part two of our episode on 5 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:25,160 Speaker 1: Jean Baptiste Deny in the development of blood transfusions in 6 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:28,520 Speaker 1: seventeenth century Paris. You can call it part do since 7 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:32,200 Speaker 1: it's very French. Today, we are jumping right into part 8 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:36,320 Speaker 1: two of this story and the work that Dinny was 9 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:39,839 Speaker 1: doing developing transfusion techniques. If you have not listened to 10 00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:42,320 Speaker 1: the first part, this one is going to be super confusing, 11 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:45,400 Speaker 1: so we definitely recommend that you do that because we're 12 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:48,280 Speaker 1: getting right back to the action. If somehow you have 13 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:50,559 Speaker 1: not listened to the first part of this, but you 14 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:54,320 Speaker 1: have listened to the way back in the archive interview 15 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:58,240 Speaker 1: called blood Work, which has some of the same themes, 16 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 1: like this is way a lot of detail that was 17 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:04,880 Speaker 1: not part of that particular episode. Yeah. That episode is 18 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 1: with an author named Holly Tucker about um her work 19 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: writing a book about this subject, which I used for 20 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:14,200 Speaker 1: as one of my sources, and it gets into a 21 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:17,560 Speaker 1: lot of other aspects of book writing and research and 22 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 1: and what was going on in the medical progression of 23 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:25,240 Speaker 1: humanity at the time, whereas I really really wanted to 24 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:29,760 Speaker 1: kind of break down this whole narrative of denise sudden 25 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 1: rise to fame in medicine and what that was all about, 26 00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:34,920 Speaker 1: and the things that were going on in Paris at 27 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:37,800 Speaker 1: the time in the medical community. Yeah, I imagine the 28 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:41,160 Speaker 1: like the subset of people who had somehow heard that 29 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:43,160 Speaker 1: earlier two part or but not part one of this 30 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:46,280 Speaker 1: might be really small, but just in case. In the 31 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:51,040 Speaker 1: last episode, we talked about denise second animal to human transfusion, 32 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 1: which took place at the home of Aree Louis de 33 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 1: mal Moore, and today we're gonna just jump right back 34 00:01:57,200 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 1: into that moment. In the winter of sixteen sixty seven, 35 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:04,920 Speaker 1: as you will recall, Dennis and his accomplices had kidnapped 36 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:08,400 Speaker 1: the subject of this transfusion attempt, that was a man 37 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 1: named Antoine more Wax, and they had given him a 38 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 1: transfusion of calf's blood against his will in an attempt 39 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:19,400 Speaker 1: to cure his mental illness. And when more Wam woke 40 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:23,639 Speaker 1: up the morning after the transfusion, he who had been 41 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:28,120 Speaker 1: again an unwilling subject, did seem to have improved. He 42 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:31,040 Speaker 1: was more docile, and he was less prone to outbursts. 43 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:34,720 Speaker 1: In all likelihood, of course, he was probably just weakened 44 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:37,640 Speaker 1: from the ordeal of the night before, but Denny, in 45 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 1: his zeal, took the change in temperament as a sign 46 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:43,760 Speaker 1: that he was really onto something and that more wax 47 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:46,920 Speaker 1: could perhaps be cured completely if they gave him a 48 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:52,640 Speaker 1: second transfusion. The second transfusion was less tumultuous than the first, 49 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:55,720 Speaker 1: which had taken place just two days earlier. It was 50 00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 1: once again held at Monmore's home, but this time at 51 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:04,360 Speaker 1: Denise and assistance. There were fewer spectators. It does seem like, 52 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 1: at least to cover your own, but idea the few 53 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:17,640 Speaker 1: who were allowed were doctors and surgeons. Additionally, this Patience, 54 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:21,840 Speaker 1: again by no choice of his own, did not resist. Yeah. 55 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:24,399 Speaker 1: I think more than covering his tail, what he really 56 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 1: wanted was we We discussed in the last episode that 57 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:30,280 Speaker 1: it was chaotic with that first one because there were 58 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 1: so many people who wanted to be there and actually 59 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:38,720 Speaker 1: see what they believed could be history being made that 60 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 1: it actually kind of hindered Denny and m ra A 61 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 1: his surgeons abilities to really perform the work they were doing, 62 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 1: so he was not afraid of um bad press or conflict, 63 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 1: So I think it had more to do. It's just 64 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:57,960 Speaker 1: like I mean, people out of my way. Yeah. Yeah. 65 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 1: M Ra could not find a vein in Marwa's right arm, 66 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:03,640 Speaker 1: and he and Denny came up with a number of 67 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:06,400 Speaker 1: reasons that that would be, none of which of course 68 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 1: related to their prior transfusion which they had done on 69 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:12,920 Speaker 1: that arm. So they decided to use the left arm 70 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 1: and they were successful, and they were able this time 71 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:18,960 Speaker 1: to get more calves blood into mare Wah, but he 72 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:22,359 Speaker 1: once again had a bad reaction almost as soon as 73 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:26,760 Speaker 1: they began. This time, more Wah was able to pretty 74 00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:30,080 Speaker 1: calmly verbalize the sensations he was feeling. He described pain 75 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 1: in his kidneys, a feeling that he was choking, and 76 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 1: that he was nauseated, and once again the transfusion was stopped. 77 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:41,159 Speaker 1: More Wa vomited several times over the next two hours 78 00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:44,240 Speaker 1: before passing out. So we should mention up front that 79 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:47,920 Speaker 1: this next account is the way that Denis recorded this story, 80 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 1: and that's that Maura, as they found him the next morning, 81 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:57,159 Speaker 1: seemed like a completely different man, quiet, alert, polite, able 82 00:04:57,200 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 1: to hold a conversation without any of the behavior that 83 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:03,159 Speaker 1: they had come to associate with him and the preceding months. 84 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:06,160 Speaker 1: He asked to see a priest so that he could 85 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:09,039 Speaker 1: give confession, which he did, and the priest was amazed 86 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:14,479 Speaker 1: by this transformation. Morhua's wife, Perina, who had not known 87 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 1: where her husband had been taken, was brought into the 88 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:20,640 Speaker 1: Momour home and she was shocked as well. The two 89 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:25,160 Speaker 1: of them were described as embracing and Antoine Rhua described 90 00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 1: what he had been through. So incidentally, if you remember 91 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:32,800 Speaker 1: from the last episode we talked about more Wa having 92 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:38,599 Speaker 1: um kind of developed his issues with his mental health 93 00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:41,320 Speaker 1: as a result of having been kind of scorned and 94 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 1: mocked in a love affair gone wrong. So you may 95 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:48,120 Speaker 1: be like, well, what is up with the wife Morwan 96 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:52,040 Speaker 1: Perne had actually been married after he started having these issues. 97 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:56,080 Speaker 1: This marriage had been arranged by his family. They thought 98 00:05:56,120 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 1: that the stability of a regular home life would cure 99 00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:03,520 Speaker 1: him of his anguish and Perrine, who had endured unending 100 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:06,880 Speaker 1: abuse from her husband, had actually been searching for him 101 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:10,160 Speaker 1: around Paris and learned of his involvement in Denny's experiment 102 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:13,280 Speaker 1: through idle chatter on the street, and that was how 103 00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:17,640 Speaker 1: she ended up in front of the Momore estate. Jean 104 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:21,760 Speaker 1: Baptiste Denny was convinced that he had just changed medicine 105 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 1: forever and that he was about to be one of 106 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:27,279 Speaker 1: the most famous men in the world. That was sort 107 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:29,920 Speaker 1: of correct, although things did not play out the way 108 00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:33,000 Speaker 1: he thought they were going to. So after being allowed 109 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:35,280 Speaker 1: to stay with her husband at Momore's home for two 110 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:38,720 Speaker 1: weeks while Deny monitored his health, the more Waws were 111 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:42,599 Speaker 1: sent home. Perrine was not convinced that Antoine was cured. 112 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:45,719 Speaker 1: She saw how different he was, but she also feared 113 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 1: that this was not a permanent fix, and she was 114 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:53,159 Speaker 1: entirely correct. After two months, more was fever spiked and 115 00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:56,640 Speaker 1: his behavior reverted to the violence and unpredictability that had 116 00:06:56,640 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 1: preceded his transfusions. Perrine went to denise home in Paris 117 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:06,279 Speaker 1: and demanded he give her husband a third transfusion. This time, 118 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 1: the procedure was performed in the Mala home, where, curiously 119 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:15,440 Speaker 1: Perne already had everything arranged, including the needed tools for 120 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 1: the transfusion and a new calf. This sounds incredibly suspicious, 121 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:26,000 Speaker 1: and it is given that the Martis were pretty poor. 122 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:30,400 Speaker 1: Dennis initially refused to do this, suspecting that something was 123 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 1: up with all this, but Parine showed the doctor the 124 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 1: bruises she had from her husband's abuse. He acquiesced and 125 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 1: went ahead with this transfusion, although by his own account 126 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 1: this entire scene really troubled him and there were complications. 127 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 1: As Denny and his surgeon Emirae were preparing, Mawa Mai 128 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 1: had a seizure. Sometimes this is also written up as 129 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 1: a series of seizures. They had already inserted a tube 130 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 1: into his arm, and they had made an incision in 131 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 1: his foot so that he could be bled of bad 132 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 1: blood exiting the body just before this seizure happened, so 133 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:09,600 Speaker 1: as soon as it took place, they determined that they 134 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:12,240 Speaker 1: had to close all of his incisions. They had not 135 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 1: at this point made any incisions in the animal, and 136 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 1: the transfusion never happened, And then the next day Antoine 137 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:24,160 Speaker 1: Marhua was dead. Denis and Mra compared notes. They wanted 138 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:27,080 Speaker 1: to make sure they had not been the cause of 139 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 1: his death. They also returned to the Morhoa home to 140 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:33,920 Speaker 1: speak with Paine and get a full account of Antoine 141 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:37,840 Speaker 1: Morhua's behavior and physical condition. In the hours between when 142 00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:41,959 Speaker 1: they left and when he died, she really did not cooperate. 143 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:46,880 Speaker 1: M attempted to begin an autopsy, and an argument ensued. 144 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:51,839 Speaker 1: Parine ejected the two men from her home. Denis assured 145 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:55,840 Speaker 1: her that there would be an autopsy, but Paine buried 146 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:59,560 Speaker 1: Antoine's body later on that day to thwart any such plan. 147 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:02,560 Speaker 1: Yeah Denny returned to their house the next morning, and 148 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:06,640 Speaker 1: it was like he's already buried. So more. WAW's death 149 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:10,720 Speaker 1: was in what sounds like a very maccab thing, welcomed 150 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:14,000 Speaker 1: by the old fashioned Parisian doctors who had been suspicious 151 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:18,480 Speaker 1: of Denny and transfusion from the beginning. There was a 152 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:22,200 Speaker 1: feeling that at last this upstarts ambition had tripped him 153 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:25,800 Speaker 1: up for a practice that was controversial to begin with. 154 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:29,240 Speaker 1: The death of denise most famed subject made even his 155 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:33,640 Speaker 1: most ardent supporters doubt their position. In a letter to 156 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:38,160 Speaker 1: the publisher of Philosophical Transactions, King Louis, the fourteenth Secretary 157 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:41,520 Speaker 1: on Rigel wrote of Deny and m R a quote, 158 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:45,400 Speaker 1: their mischance will discredit transfusion, and no one will dare 159 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:49,160 Speaker 1: to try it in the future. On men. Deny himself 160 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:52,720 Speaker 1: had wondered if Peren had killed her husband and had 161 00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:57,360 Speaker 1: used him and m R. To cover her tracks. Things 162 00:09:57,440 --> 00:10:01,280 Speaker 1: just didn't add up. The surgical instru manson medical supplies 163 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:04,600 Speaker 1: that she had ready in their home, this new calf 164 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:09,320 Speaker 1: purchased and ready for the transfusions. All of this two 165 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:13,200 Speaker 1: months after MARTA's death. It was Perrine herself who finally 166 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 1: answered these pretty puzzling questions for Denny. Sort of uh. 167 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 1: Perine Mata paid a visit to Denny, and she spilled 168 00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:23,920 Speaker 1: her story, or at least part of it. She told 169 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:26,400 Speaker 1: him that a group of physicians had approached her after 170 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 1: Antoine's death, offering her money to testify that Denny had 171 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:33,079 Speaker 1: killed him. But she also told Denny that if he 172 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 1: couldn't help her financially, she would have to take their money, 173 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:39,480 Speaker 1: as had been the case in the Maha home. Denny 174 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:43,319 Speaker 1: and Perine argued, and she left. His next step was 175 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:47,240 Speaker 1: to file a complaint against Mata's widow for extortion, as 176 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:50,959 Speaker 1: well as against the mystery physicians who attempted to bribe her. 177 00:10:51,559 --> 00:10:55,199 Speaker 1: He could not name any man specifically. A hearing was 178 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:59,640 Speaker 1: held on April seventeenth of sixteen sixty eight. A judge 179 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 1: was asked with sorting out the accusations against Denise for 180 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:09,120 Speaker 1: having possibly murdered Mala and denise counter complaint against parne 181 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:12,480 Speaker 1: Boas Denis was the first witness he was called. He 182 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 1: described all of the details of LA's first two transfusions 183 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:18,959 Speaker 1: and how they had appeared to everyone to be a 184 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:23,280 Speaker 1: complete success. He also testified that the third transfusion had 185 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 1: been halted before it even began because of plass seizure. 186 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:29,439 Speaker 1: And we're going to get into the testimony that was 187 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:32,760 Speaker 1: given by the widow parin Broi next, but before we do, 188 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:35,560 Speaker 1: let's take a quick breather and have a sponsor break. 189 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:47,960 Speaker 1: Karine Maua was the next person to be questioned after Denine, 190 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:50,719 Speaker 1: and she talked about how hard she tried to be 191 00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:54,160 Speaker 1: a good and dutiful wife. She told the judge of 192 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 1: how Antoine had once again become unpredictable just a few 193 00:11:57,520 --> 00:12:00,360 Speaker 1: weeks after the seeming success of his transfusion at the 194 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:03,800 Speaker 1: memoir state she had cared for him when he had 195 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:06,600 Speaker 1: come home from carousing and she had endured his abuse, 196 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:10,199 Speaker 1: and as part of this testimony, she also disclosed that 197 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:13,520 Speaker 1: she had consented to sexual intercourse with her husband on 198 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:16,480 Speaker 1: four occasions after they had returned home from their time 199 00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 1: in Paris. This was intended to be evidence of her devotion, 200 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:25,680 Speaker 1: but it actually undermined her case. Denny had expressly forbidden 201 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:30,080 Speaker 1: sexual activity as dangerous to Marwa's health while he continued 202 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:34,600 Speaker 1: to recover. Denny had not wanted him drinking or carousing either, 203 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:38,079 Speaker 1: so basically this kind of helped Denny's case that he 204 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:40,960 Speaker 1: was not to blame for what had happened. The case 205 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 1: continued to turn against Perine Maha from there. Neighbors testified 206 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:49,280 Speaker 1: that yes, the couple thought and Antoine could be violent, 207 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:54,160 Speaker 1: but that Parine had also struck her husband in seventeenth 208 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:57,719 Speaker 1: century France, that was pretty damning. There was also a 209 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:00,920 Speaker 1: suspicion among the neighbors, but no evidence that Paine might 210 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:04,079 Speaker 1: have been poisoning Antoine. This was lot of time in 211 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 1: Paris when poisonings were pretty common, and so accusations of 212 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:11,959 Speaker 1: poisonings were also rampant, so suspicious neighbors in that regard were. 213 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:15,319 Speaker 1: That was almost a foregone conclusion. Yeah, I didn't. I 214 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:17,839 Speaker 1: didn't know about this when we started working on it 215 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:21,839 Speaker 1: um and it suddenly overlapped so much that we've talked 216 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:25,120 Speaker 1: about on Criminalia this season. It's like, I can't get 217 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:29,599 Speaker 1: away from poisoning everywhere. It's just everywhere I turned. So 218 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 1: the police chief appointed by King Louis the fourteen, Nicola, 219 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 1: took particular interest in this poisoning testimony because his efforts 220 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:42,960 Speaker 1: to curb the city's poisoning problem had been just exhausting 221 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:46,640 Speaker 1: and frustrating for him, and both Deni and Emirae told 222 00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:50,200 Speaker 1: the judge that they had heard Antoine Maroi claim prior 223 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:53,520 Speaker 1: to their first transfusion treatment with him, that he believed 224 00:13:53,559 --> 00:13:57,199 Speaker 1: his wife was trying to kill him. So despite everyone 225 00:13:57,480 --> 00:14:00,680 Speaker 1: having believed that Maroa was a madman during that time, 226 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 1: this still was very, very bad for Perrine. So it 227 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:08,960 Speaker 1: was believed that Mrs Mahua had been serving her husband 228 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:12,120 Speaker 1: arsenic and soup and small doses, and that that would 229 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:15,240 Speaker 1: kill him slowly and in a way that presented as 230 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:20,480 Speaker 1: any number of other common ailments, and incidentally, being fed 231 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 1: arsenic and small amounts canned also caused delirium and seizures. 232 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:28,480 Speaker 1: Based on a whole lot of circumstantial evidence, Perine Maha 233 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:31,480 Speaker 1: was charged with murder and taken to a prison cell, 234 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:34,400 Speaker 1: but we just don't know what happened to her after that. 235 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:37,920 Speaker 1: The judge did believe that they had sussed out what 236 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:41,000 Speaker 1: had happened, and that Perrine had plotted against her husband, 237 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:43,080 Speaker 1: but he also thought there was more to the story. 238 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:47,040 Speaker 1: He really wanted more answers about how Perrine had gotten 239 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:50,800 Speaker 1: the poison. Our snake was readily available for purchase as 240 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 1: a means of controlling rodent populations, but the Mahua's were, 241 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:57,400 Speaker 1: by all accounts penniless, so he believed that someone must 242 00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:00,440 Speaker 1: have provided it, and the mystery physician and she had 243 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:03,360 Speaker 1: told Denny about had also apparently spoken with at least 244 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 1: one of her neighbors offering to pay for a sworn 245 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 1: statement about Mahua's death implicating Denis, so Dennis was cleared 246 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 1: of all charges. The judge ruled that Mahua had not 247 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:18,200 Speaker 1: died due to negligence on John Baptiste Denise part, but 248 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:21,520 Speaker 1: because he had been poisoned with arsenic and that Paine 249 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:26,960 Speaker 1: Maha might have been abetted by anti transfusion saboteurs. We 250 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 1: do not know the names of the saboteur doctors who 251 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 1: Deni referred to as the quote enemies of the experiment. 252 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:38,240 Speaker 1: Numerous members of the Parisian medical establishment had spoken out 253 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:41,600 Speaker 1: about Denise procedures, and many of them have been theorized 254 00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 1: as likely culprits. The specific information has been lost uh 255 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:49,200 Speaker 1: if any had been named, as have the court records 256 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:52,840 Speaker 1: from denise trial, although some of the supporting documentation remains. 257 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:56,800 Speaker 1: But it did appear definitely that other men of medicine 258 00:15:56,840 --> 00:16:00,920 Speaker 1: in Paris were so mortified by transfusion that they would 259 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:04,640 Speaker 1: rather kill a patient than risk the experiment, succeeding some 260 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:10,120 Speaker 1: of the possible suspects Pierre martin de la martinere uh. 261 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:13,840 Speaker 1: He had written numerous letters to high ranking officials describing 262 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:17,240 Speaker 1: transfusion as quote directly to the contrary and opposite of 263 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:21,600 Speaker 1: God's wishes, because it destroys his living images. Martiniere had 264 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:25,080 Speaker 1: also written to Denis that Satan was revealing himself in 265 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:28,840 Speaker 1: Denie's work. Another man who had become friends with Martiniere 266 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:32,560 Speaker 1: through their mutual disdain for transfusion and Denis in particular, 267 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 1: was Gill Lemis had also written a number of letters 268 00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:40,120 Speaker 1: to various doctors in Paris about the horrors of transfusion, 269 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:43,000 Speaker 1: and after Morea's death, he wrote a letter to a 270 00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:48,080 Speaker 1: doctor named Rena Moureau, sounding almost giddy about Denise demise, saying, quote, 271 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:51,240 Speaker 1: the miserable adventure of the Madman's death will be enough 272 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:54,960 Speaker 1: to overturn all of his beautiful imaginations and to ruin 273 00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:59,600 Speaker 1: entirely his high hopes. Both Lammie and Martiniere were mentioned 274 00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 1: in a use of writing by a lawyer named Louis 275 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 1: de Baste. It was titled Reflections by Louis de Bust, 276 00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:12,720 Speaker 1: Real Lawyer in Parliament on Disputes concerning transfusion. He described 277 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:16,000 Speaker 1: how divided the medical community had become on this issue, 278 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:19,000 Speaker 1: to the point that things seemed downright dangerous, and he 279 00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:24,480 Speaker 1: believed the two named doctors had been conspiring against den. Yeah, 280 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:26,119 Speaker 1: if you go back in the archive and listen to 281 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:29,480 Speaker 1: the episodes with Hally Tucker, she talks about discovering this 282 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:32,240 Speaker 1: piece of writing which had not really been known about 283 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:34,159 Speaker 1: prior to her research on the book. It had just 284 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 1: been kind of sitting in archives. So it was kind 285 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:40,000 Speaker 1: of a big moment in terms of really kind of 286 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:43,080 Speaker 1: solving what had played out here. But to return to 287 00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:46,440 Speaker 1: the events of April seventeen, sixteen sixty eight, the next 288 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:48,800 Speaker 1: part of the ruling that the judge made was far 289 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:53,639 Speaker 1: less favorable for Denny. The judge declared it illegal to 290 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 1: use animal blood in transfusions to humans in the cases 291 00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:01,080 Speaker 1: wrap up in sixteen sixty eight unless that usage was 292 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:04,600 Speaker 1: sanctioned by the Faculty of Medicine of Paris, and that 293 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:07,600 Speaker 1: meant that the very men who had been vocally decrying 294 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 1: the use of transfusion were the ones who decided if 295 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:13,479 Speaker 1: it could be done, which they were absolutely never going 296 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:16,679 Speaker 1: to do. So we should mention that the entire idea 297 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:20,399 Speaker 1: of transfusion was anathema at the time, not because of 298 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:24,480 Speaker 1: the scientific problems with it those existed, but there still 299 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:27,600 Speaker 1: wasn't enough knowledge about the workings of blood and the 300 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:30,639 Speaker 1: circulatory system to really come to the conclusion that it 301 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:34,120 Speaker 1: was or wasn't a scientifically sound idea. At that point, 302 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:38,040 Speaker 1: the fears had more to do with moral and religious debate. 303 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:41,000 Speaker 1: There were concerns that someone who had a transfusion of 304 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:45,359 Speaker 1: animal blood might experience transmutation and developed characteristics of the 305 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:49,120 Speaker 1: animal from which the blood was sourced. Yeah, we mentioned 306 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:51,840 Speaker 1: earlier on in talking about the story that there was 307 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:55,159 Speaker 1: a patient who claimed that he was taking on animal 308 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:58,840 Speaker 1: characteristics and how problematic it was, and this whole thing 309 00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:02,320 Speaker 1: brought up argument about identity and what it means to 310 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:05,000 Speaker 1: be human, and what it might mean to change the 311 00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:09,280 Speaker 1: human form, and whether this was reaching too far into science, 312 00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:13,359 Speaker 1: two places that were really the domain of God. Another 313 00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:17,120 Speaker 1: layer of the religious issues that surrounded transfusion in its 314 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:20,720 Speaker 1: debate in predominantly Catholic France, it was the fact that 315 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 1: Protestant England had started doing it first, so it was 316 00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:27,840 Speaker 1: automatically viewed with a little bit of suspicion. It's also 317 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:30,440 Speaker 1: important to note that it was not acceptable in any 318 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:34,720 Speaker 1: sort of consensus to take blood from other humans. Things 319 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:38,439 Speaker 1: like dissections and autopsies were generally performed on the bodies 320 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:41,760 Speaker 1: of people who had been criminals, a trend that we 321 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:44,720 Speaker 1: have talked about on the show before. While there were 322 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:48,359 Speaker 1: physicians and scientists on both sides of that debate, many 323 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:51,639 Speaker 1: like Deny, thought that animals were a better option. So 324 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 1: really this ruling just shut down any experiments or work 325 00:19:56,000 --> 00:20:00,320 Speaker 1: in transfusions completely. Two years later, the or of the 326 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:03,159 Speaker 1: law made the use of blood from humans as an 327 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:07,200 Speaker 1: option not a matter of inference, but clearly spelled out 328 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:12,359 Speaker 1: all transfusions were banned in France. So for Deny this 329 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:15,680 Speaker 1: ruling uh in the initial case was a huge blow 330 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:17,840 Speaker 1: and it meant that the work that he was invested in, 331 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:21,000 Speaker 1: that he had made his name famous in Paris with, 332 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 1: was essentially over. We'll talk about denise efforts to be 333 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:28,960 Speaker 1: able to continue his transfusion work after we first pause 334 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:40,439 Speaker 1: for a word from our sponsors. Jean Baptiste Deny argued 335 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:43,840 Speaker 1: against the decision that animal to human transfusions were banned, 336 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:46,359 Speaker 1: and he actually tried to rally the medical community to 337 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:50,200 Speaker 1: the cause. He kind of used his successes as evidence 338 00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:53,639 Speaker 1: that no, we really should continue doing this work, and 339 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 1: he started a petition to try to overturn the ruling, 340 00:20:57,359 --> 00:21:00,240 Speaker 1: but he got fewer than ten signatures from the physiciss 341 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:04,240 Speaker 1: of Paris. He next got are Louis de Montmore, his 342 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:09,120 Speaker 1: financial supporter involved in this campaign. Malmore, through his rank 343 00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:11,479 Speaker 1: and wealth, was on better footing to try to use 344 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:14,560 Speaker 1: the French legal system to his advantage than Ton. He was. 345 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:19,399 Speaker 1: He was still considered an outsider with a mixed reputation. Additionally, 346 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:22,159 Speaker 1: Momore had a law degree and he had worked as 347 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:26,160 Speaker 1: an appointed government official, and this approach had some success. 348 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:29,240 Speaker 1: With Momore's assistance, than he was able to take his 349 00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:33,040 Speaker 1: case to Parliament, and the strategy in their approach was 350 00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 1: really pretty savvy. Even though this was technically an appeal, 351 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:40,440 Speaker 1: they opted to plead their case in the Grand Chamble. 352 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:44,080 Speaker 1: This is where issues of guilds and hospitals and universities 353 00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:47,840 Speaker 1: were heard, and this was really smart for two reasons. One, 354 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:51,320 Speaker 1: it kind of sidestepped all the seedier criminal aspects of 355 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:54,119 Speaker 1: the more Wawk case, and it let Denny focus on 356 00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 1: the ability to pursue transfusion research as part of advancing 357 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:01,800 Speaker 1: science and medicine. To a case that came before the 358 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:05,280 Speaker 1: Grand Chambre just a year earlier about using chemical remedies 359 00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:08,560 Speaker 1: in medicine, had gone against the wishes of the Faculty 360 00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 1: of Medicine at the University of Paris. The Conservative School 361 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:15,520 Speaker 1: had wished to keep chemical remedies out of medical practice, 362 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:19,920 Speaker 1: but Parliament had ruled them permissible, and Denny was hoping 363 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:23,000 Speaker 1: that his case would have a similar outcome in disregarding 364 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:27,160 Speaker 1: old guard physicians in favor of progress. The trial convened 365 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 1: on November sixteen sixty nine. The public was not allowed in, 366 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:34,879 Speaker 1: but the trial had been publicized all over the city 367 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 1: and it was as anticipated as any piece of entertainment. 368 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:41,720 Speaker 1: Of course, the Knee was famous, and this work was controversial. 369 00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:44,600 Speaker 1: The death of Mahoi and the twists and turns and 370 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:46,880 Speaker 1: the prior hearing had been the talk of the city 371 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:50,560 Speaker 1: for months, so people from the court of King Louis 372 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:52,879 Speaker 1: the fourteenth, all the way down to the lowest class, 373 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:56,440 Speaker 1: we're really eager to see what happened next. The case 374 00:22:56,560 --> 00:23:00,600 Speaker 1: was presented before Judge Matthieumulai. The legal case made by 375 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 1: Denise representative Cletien de la Magnon was described as being 376 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:09,400 Speaker 1: exceptionally good. I think it's cited in one instance as 377 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:13,640 Speaker 1: being a masterpiece. But despite the preparation and the presentation 378 00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:16,359 Speaker 1: and everyone talking about what a strong case it was, 379 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:21,440 Speaker 1: Molay refused to overturn the previous decision. The two physicians 380 00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:25,040 Speaker 1: we mentioned a moment ago, Lemmy and Martiniere never faced 381 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:28,680 Speaker 1: any real investigation regarding whether they had been involved in 382 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 1: more was death or in trying to bribe the widow 383 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:36,919 Speaker 1: Paene to help them ruin Denise. Let Me was suspected 384 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:40,119 Speaker 1: by some of his peers as possibly wanting revenge on 385 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,000 Speaker 1: Denis after the two men had a public argument in 386 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:46,840 Speaker 1: the streets, but let Me did what was probably the 387 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:50,200 Speaker 1: smart thing. As accusations started to really bubble He swore 388 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:52,400 Speaker 1: that he would neither speak nor right of the matter 389 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:55,120 Speaker 1: any longer, saying quote, I think I have said enough, 390 00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:58,119 Speaker 1: and that was that for him. Yeah, he's not one 391 00:23:58,160 --> 00:23:59,679 Speaker 1: of those people who says I'm never going to talk 392 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:02,440 Speaker 1: about us again and then tweet sixty more things like 393 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:09,920 Speaker 1: book about it. Martaigniere was far less restrained. Not only 394 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:14,160 Speaker 1: did he continue to denounce Deni and Transfusion, he also 395 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:17,240 Speaker 1: wrote that he had met with Perrin Mahroi to discuss 396 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:19,919 Speaker 1: whether she should seek legal action against Deny for her 397 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 1: husband's death. He also named the apothecary where Peine had 398 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:29,399 Speaker 1: gotten her arsenic This essentially is like a confession, but 399 00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:33,520 Speaker 1: it was never pursued. As such, he referred to Deny 400 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:36,880 Speaker 1: as a Transfusionist monster, and in a letter to Louis 401 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:40,399 Speaker 1: the fourteens first Minister of State, Jean Baptiste Colbert, he 402 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:44,240 Speaker 1: suggested that anyone quote whose inclination is to pull and 403 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:47,439 Speaker 1: push blood should basically be killed. I think the actual 404 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:49,880 Speaker 1: phrasing is that they should be taken to the Caribbean 405 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:53,720 Speaker 1: and sacrificed. After that second judge refused to overturn the 406 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:57,560 Speaker 1: judgment against Transfusion, Martiniere seems to have stepped away from 407 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:02,040 Speaker 1: medicine entirely. Following the heel trial, Motmore fell into a 408 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 1: serious depression. He liked Deni had lost his dream, but 409 00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:10,800 Speaker 1: without transfusion, his science academy could not keep going. It 410 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:14,320 Speaker 1: was the last setback. Accounts by his family indicate that 411 00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:16,840 Speaker 1: he had to be cajoled into letting people care for 412 00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 1: him if he would not care for himself, and he 413 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 1: never really returned to his former self. His son took 414 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:26,560 Speaker 1: over the family finances, and that was disastrous. Aria Louis 415 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:30,320 Speaker 1: de Malmore died in sixteen seventy nine. As for Deni, 416 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:33,040 Speaker 1: after the appeal, he kind of went back to the 417 00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:36,560 Speaker 1: life he had before his sudden rise to fame, teaching 418 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:40,199 Speaker 1: medical students in his home. He also turned his attention 419 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:43,639 Speaker 1: to judicial astrology, in which the measurements of movements of 420 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:47,960 Speaker 1: heavenly bodies were being used to predict the future. Deny 421 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:51,240 Speaker 1: was critical of the practice, writing quote, predictions will always 422 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:53,640 Speaker 1: keep you in a state of suspense, in a state 423 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:56,639 Speaker 1: of impatient hope, and this hope will deprive you of 424 00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 1: everything that is good and agreeable in life. So clearly, 425 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 1: by the time this was all over, he was not 426 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:05,960 Speaker 1: the same ambitious man he had been when he first 427 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:09,840 Speaker 1: got into medicine. Jean Baptiste Deinni died in Paris in 428 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:14,040 Speaker 1: seventeen o four. He was sixty nine. After France's anti 429 00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:19,120 Speaker 1: transfusion rulings, other European countries followed suit. Even in places 430 00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:22,679 Speaker 1: where there weren't rulings or laws against it. Transfusions were 431 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:26,000 Speaker 1: abandoned by the scientific community as an area of exploration 432 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:29,440 Speaker 1: for nearly a hundred and fifty years. There have been 433 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:33,960 Speaker 1: some references to Philadelphia doctor Philip Singh, physic achieving the 434 00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:39,520 Speaker 1: first successful human blood transfusion in seventeen In some sources, 435 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:43,080 Speaker 1: they also note he didn't publish any information about his work, 436 00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 1: and that makes it a little bit difficult to verify. 437 00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:50,440 Speaker 1: In a ninety two article about transfusion history, Dr cyrus C. 438 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:54,200 Speaker 1: Sturgis wrote that the earliest mentioned he ever found of 439 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:58,120 Speaker 1: the physics transfusion was in the Philadelphia Journal of Medicine 440 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:02,720 Speaker 1: and Physical Sciences from an team abstract, which mentions that 441 00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:06,000 Speaker 1: is a footnote because it was notoriously light on record 442 00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:09,400 Speaker 1: keeping and writing up his work. So this case continues 443 00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:11,760 Speaker 1: to be just a footnote. Yeah, we don't really know 444 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:16,080 Speaker 1: if if that ever happened. The first recorded instance of 445 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:18,359 Speaker 1: human blood being used to save a patient is in 446 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:23,200 Speaker 1: eighteen eighteen. That procedure was performed by obstetrician James Blendell, 447 00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:27,080 Speaker 1: who was frustrated at having lost patients to postpartum hemorrhaging. 448 00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 1: He wrote quote, I have seen a woman dying for 449 00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:32,920 Speaker 1: two or three hours together, convinced in my own mind 450 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:36,520 Speaker 1: that no known remedy could save her. The sight of 451 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:41,280 Speaker 1: these moving cases led me to transfusion. Blendell had started 452 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:45,240 Speaker 1: his experiments somewhat as Denny and other predecessors had with 453 00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 1: animals and humans. Although his tests involved giving human blood 454 00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:53,439 Speaker 1: to dogs with mortal results, he quickly determined that blood 455 00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:56,480 Speaker 1: from one class of animal could not be used on another. 456 00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:00,560 Speaker 1: His success rate with humans a human trance usians was 457 00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:03,600 Speaker 1: only fifty percent, but it got the attention of the 458 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:07,960 Speaker 1: medical community, and jumps started the field of transfusion science again. 459 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:11,080 Speaker 1: One of the big developments in the century that followed, 460 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:13,639 Speaker 1: and what is often cited is ushering in the modern 461 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:16,800 Speaker 1: era of blood transfusions, was the discovery of what became 462 00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:20,399 Speaker 1: the A B O blood group system. Austrian Dr Carl 463 00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:24,080 Speaker 1: Landsteiner identified three types, which he called A, B, and C, 464 00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:28,000 Speaker 1: beginning in nineteen hundred. His first publications on it were 465 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:30,159 Speaker 1: nineteen o one, so you'll also see that cited as 466 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:33,200 Speaker 1: the date. The A group had one type of antigen, 467 00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 1: the B group had another, and the C group, which 468 00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:40,520 Speaker 1: was eventually changed to oh uh sometime later, had no antigens. 469 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:44,160 Speaker 1: The A B group, which has both A and B antigens, 470 00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:47,960 Speaker 1: was identified by Alfred di Costello and ADRIANO Sterley in 471 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:51,200 Speaker 1: nineteen o two. Landsteiner went on to win the Nobel 472 00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:54,080 Speaker 1: Prize for Medicine in nineteen thirty based on his work 473 00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:57,640 Speaker 1: with blood groups. With that one piece of the blood 474 00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:01,600 Speaker 1: puzzle figured out, things progressed rape with large steps forward 475 00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:05,480 Speaker 1: developed During times of war, new ways to transfer blood 476 00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:08,120 Speaker 1: from patient to patient were developed, as well as better 477 00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:12,720 Speaker 1: storage and preservation methods for blood eliminated the need for 478 00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:16,240 Speaker 1: the donor and the recipient to be in close physical proximity. 479 00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:20,280 Speaker 1: The first blood bank opened in St. Petersburg, Russia, which 480 00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:23,880 Speaker 1: was Leningrad at the time, in nineteen thirty two. The 481 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:26,720 Speaker 1: first blood bank in the US opened at Cook County 482 00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:31,000 Speaker 1: Hospital in Chicago in nineteen thirty seven. The American Association 483 00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:34,240 Speaker 1: of Blood Banks formed in nineteen seven and established the 484 00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:36,520 Speaker 1: A A B B clearing House that is now called 485 00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:40,200 Speaker 1: the National Blood Exchange in nineteen fifty three, and this 486 00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:43,360 Speaker 1: created a system that enabled blood banks to exchange blood 487 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:46,400 Speaker 1: to meet the needs of patients around the country. The 488 00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:49,360 Speaker 1: A A B B also published Standards for a Blood 489 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:53,000 Speaker 1: Transfusion Service, which evolved into Standards for Blood Banks and 490 00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:58,120 Speaker 1: Transfusion Services on subsequent printings. Today, transfusions are a vital 491 00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:03,120 Speaker 1: part of medicine. While whole blood transfusions are still performed, 492 00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:06,080 Speaker 1: it's more efficient to separate the blood into its various 493 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:09,640 Speaker 1: components for medical use, and that way, one donation can 494 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:13,240 Speaker 1: be used for multiple patients who have different needs. According 495 00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:16,320 Speaker 1: to the Red Cross, and estimated thirty six thousand units 496 00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:18,880 Speaker 1: of red blood cells are needed in the US every 497 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:22,520 Speaker 1: day and nearly twenty one million blood components are transfused 498 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:25,240 Speaker 1: in the US each year. And according to the World 499 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:28,760 Speaker 1: Health Organization, A hundred and eighteen point four million blood 500 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:33,760 Speaker 1: donations are collected around the world annually. Those donations come 501 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:37,640 Speaker 1: from high income countries. And while Jean Baptiste Denny had 502 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:40,240 Speaker 1: to abandon the procedure that made him famous in Paris 503 00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:43,360 Speaker 1: for a few years in the sixteen sixties. He does 504 00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:46,560 Speaker 1: actually have a legacy that reaches us in modern medicine, 505 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:49,040 Speaker 1: one that most people probably have in their first aid 506 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:52,560 Speaker 1: kit at home. In his later work, he developed stiptic. 507 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:55,480 Speaker 1: That is correct, he invented a means to stop bleeding, 508 00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:59,160 Speaker 1: although he doesn't really get credited with that inventioned very 509 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:02,680 Speaker 1: even if you look up, like if you do a 510 00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:07,600 Speaker 1: web search for inventor of styptic, I found nothing. Um 511 00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:10,640 Speaker 1: So it was more a matter of using the research 512 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:14,920 Speaker 1: that had been done in his biographies. It's an interesting story. 513 00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:18,760 Speaker 1: It's such a um an intrigue story at a level 514 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:25,600 Speaker 1: unlike unlike we have ever quite uh probably not. I 515 00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:28,920 Speaker 1: wouldn't say we've ever quite, but it's not terribly common. 516 00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:31,760 Speaker 1: We talk a lot about scientific developments and some of 517 00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:35,160 Speaker 1: the conflicts around them, but very rarely do they evolve 518 00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:37,480 Speaker 1: into a murder case that has twists and turns and 519 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:42,840 Speaker 1: like a shadow group of people orchestrating things and yeah, yeah, 520 00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:47,320 Speaker 1: ultimately putting an end to a part of medical science. 521 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:53,320 Speaker 1: For yeah, I'm also interested in um in how the 522 00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:58,120 Speaker 1: moral and religious objections to transfusion evolved over time, because 523 00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 1: like there are still people living today who will who 524 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:04,520 Speaker 1: will not have transfusions for religious or moral reasons um, 525 00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:10,000 Speaker 1: but not like with the same explanation. That's why it 526 00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:13,680 Speaker 1: was unacceptable in the seventeenth century for the most part. Yeah, 527 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:16,640 Speaker 1: I mean I I this is pure speculation on my part. 528 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:19,000 Speaker 1: I haven't really done research into this. I think the 529 00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:21,680 Speaker 1: work that was being done in obstetrics that saved a 530 00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:25,680 Speaker 1: number of mothers early on in the nineteenth century, uh, 531 00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:29,600 Speaker 1: and that work being published was probably a pretty significant 532 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:33,560 Speaker 1: shift in the perception um because it is hard to 533 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:37,160 Speaker 1: argue against something that is saving a mother and not 534 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:41,760 Speaker 1: orphaning a child. That would be my guess uh for 535 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:46,200 Speaker 1: less guesswork though, I have fun email. Since we're starting 536 00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:48,440 Speaker 1: a new year, I'm trying to stick to fun thanks 537 00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:50,800 Speaker 1: in the email. Uh, and it is about something I'm 538 00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:54,479 Speaker 1: hoping to do this year, which is Rugaru Fest. Uh. 539 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:56,680 Speaker 1: This is from our listener Mandy, who writes first, I 540 00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:58,560 Speaker 1: want to say what a bright light year podcast has 541 00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:00,840 Speaker 1: been for me for many years, and especially right now. 542 00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:03,120 Speaker 1: I had a baby back in June, and between a 543 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:05,640 Speaker 1: newborn and being stuck at home, things can feel awfully 544 00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:08,480 Speaker 1: difficult at times. But your podcast has helped me feel 545 00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:10,560 Speaker 1: more to the wider world in history, which has been 546 00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:14,960 Speaker 1: immensely helpful from my mental health. Congratulations. Also, I can't 547 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:18,360 Speaker 1: imagine how stressful it would be to become a new 548 00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:20,720 Speaker 1: parent in the midst of a pandemic, so I'm glad 549 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:23,160 Speaker 1: things seem to be going well, She says. I'm writing 550 00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:26,440 Speaker 1: about your episode on Three Hellhounds, specifically the part about 551 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:29,760 Speaker 1: the rugaroo and rugarou Fest. I am from South Louisiana 552 00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:32,280 Speaker 1: and currently live in New Orleans. At your Bob Hope 553 00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:34,200 Speaker 1: Live show at the World War Two Museum, I was 554 00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:36,320 Speaker 1: the person in the audience who had lost her voice. 555 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:39,000 Speaker 1: I also work in the nonprofit sector, and I am 556 00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:41,680 Speaker 1: friends with Jonathan for a When I heard you mentioned 557 00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:43,640 Speaker 1: him on the show, I immediately texted him to let 558 00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:46,480 Speaker 1: him know that rugarou Fest was being featured on your podcast, 559 00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:48,440 Speaker 1: and I sent him the episode and he was thrilled. 560 00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:50,880 Speaker 1: It feels worth mentioning that he is as delightful as 561 00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:53,760 Speaker 1: you might imagine a person who created a rugarou festival 562 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:57,719 Speaker 1: would be. Uh. And then he has a pet nutrient 563 00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:03,080 Speaker 1: named Bene, which I love. Um. She says, I appreciated 564 00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:06,920 Speaker 1: your showcasing the festival. Too often Louisiana is reduced to 565 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,600 Speaker 1: a sort of muddled version of Bourbon Street writ large. 566 00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:12,080 Speaker 1: But as the festival highlights, we have a rich mix 567 00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:15,040 Speaker 1: of community, some might say a gumbo forgive me, and 568 00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:17,480 Speaker 1: the Bayou region is home to an incredible amount of 569 00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:20,480 Speaker 1: pre colonial in American history, some of which is literally 570 00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:24,239 Speaker 1: disappearing before our eyes. The festival supports efforts to teach 571 00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:27,520 Speaker 1: and learn all about Louisiana is disappearing coast and heritage. 572 00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:30,880 Speaker 1: So it felt especially apropro for stuff you missed in history. 573 00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:35,040 Speaker 1: And then she gives us some suggestions. Um, I thank 574 00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:37,400 Speaker 1: you for this lovely email. I'm so glad that. Um. 575 00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:41,960 Speaker 1: The folks that put Rugaru Fest together, we're okay with 576 00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:44,200 Speaker 1: that and liked it because you always worry when you 577 00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:47,319 Speaker 1: mentioned something contemporary that someone will go you're a jerk. 578 00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:51,920 Speaker 1: That's not correct. Yeah right, I mean it happens, um, 579 00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:56,040 Speaker 1: And I really am intent on going this year, presuming 580 00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:58,240 Speaker 1: that we are in a place where travel is available, 581 00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:01,360 Speaker 1: because it sounds like the best time ever. Um, so, 582 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:04,400 Speaker 1: especially knowing how steeped in history, the whole thing is, 583 00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:07,600 Speaker 1: I'm into it. If you would like to write to us, 584 00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:09,600 Speaker 1: tell us about more festivals we can put on our 585 00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:14,359 Speaker 1: dock after after travel becomes a reality again. You can 586 00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:17,640 Speaker 1: do that at History podcast at i heeart radio dot com. 587 00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:19,960 Speaker 1: You can also find us on social media's Missed in 588 00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:22,560 Speaker 1: History and if you would like to subscribe to the 589 00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:24,880 Speaker 1: podcast that is easy as Pie, you can do it 590 00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:27,160 Speaker 1: on the I heart radio app and Apple podcast or 591 00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:34,520 Speaker 1: wherever it is you listen. Stuff you Missed in History 592 00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:37,239 Speaker 1: Class is a production of I heart Radio. For more 593 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:40,359 Speaker 1: podcasts from I heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, 594 00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:43,640 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.