WEBVTT - TikTok Part 6: The Showdown 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:03.720 This is a story of TikTok showdown with President Trump. 0:00:04.160 --> 0:00:08.080 It starts on a Friday in August. For Mario Parker, 0:00:08.480 --> 0:00:10.600 it began just like any other night on the job. 0:00:11.480 --> 0:00:14.400 He's a reporter here at Bloomberg who covers the White House. 0:00:14.960 --> 0:00:19.200 The President always travels with a group of reporters. We 0:00:19.320 --> 0:00:23.160 give updates on the president's movements. That could be whether 0:00:23.200 --> 0:00:25.000 at the White House or that can be on the 0:00:25.079 --> 0:00:30.040 road that sometimes involves riding aboard Air Force one. That night, 0:00:30.520 --> 0:00:33.879 Mario was on the plane with President Trump. The journalist 0:00:34.000 --> 0:00:36.360 usually sit in the back of the plane waiting for 0:00:36.400 --> 0:00:39.480 the President to make a move. When he starts walking back, 0:00:39.840 --> 0:00:42.720 you know it. So you see, you know, some of 0:00:42.720 --> 0:00:46.120 the Secret Service agents move into different positions, and so 0:00:46.159 --> 0:00:48.600 we know, oh he's coming, he's on his way back. 0:00:49.120 --> 0:00:52.120 It's an electricity at that point because you know he's 0:00:52.159 --> 0:00:55.360 coming back. It's going to be an intimate conversation. Trump 0:00:55.360 --> 0:00:58.120 had already said he might go after TikTok earlier that 0:00:58.200 --> 0:01:01.880 summer because it was owned by a Chinese company, but 0:01:01.960 --> 0:01:04.960 he had just made a vague threat, and Mario wanted 0:01:05.000 --> 0:01:09.759 to see if the President would say something more specific. TikTok. 0:01:09.880 --> 0:01:13.559 That was like my primary if if I had a 0:01:13.640 --> 0:01:16.360 question with the president, that was like my target for 0:01:16.400 --> 0:01:19.760 that day. I asked him about it. He was kind 0:01:19.800 --> 0:01:22.160 of baffling on whether or not to announce it. No 0:01:22.200 --> 0:01:25.640 one really expected a straight answer from Trump, but the 0:01:25.680 --> 0:01:28.760 reporters that had day kept pressing him, and then the 0:01:28.800 --> 0:01:31.679 President came out and said he was going to band TikTok. 0:01:32.120 --> 0:01:35.200 He might sign something as soon as the next day. 0:01:35.400 --> 0:01:38.200 Trump said, I have that authority. I could do it 0:01:38.280 --> 0:01:43.000 with an executive order. This is something that's like concrete tomorrow, 0:01:44.040 --> 0:01:47.480 hard day. I'm going to take this hard action, which 0:01:47.520 --> 0:01:50.640 is banning, and I'm going to do it in this manner, 0:01:51.040 --> 0:01:55.400 and so there's a much more definitive, serious tone to it. 0:01:55.920 --> 0:01:59.640 This was huge news because it wasn't just a conflict 0:01:59.680 --> 0:02:03.400 between the President and TikTok. Things between the US and 0:02:03.480 --> 0:02:06.440 China had never been worse. For Trump to pick a 0:02:06.480 --> 0:02:09.320 fight with TikTok meant that he was going after China 0:02:09.520 --> 0:02:13.480 in a big way. It's about maybe a dozen journalists. 0:02:13.919 --> 0:02:16.520 I looked around just to make sure a to make 0:02:16.560 --> 0:02:19.120 sure I heard him right, because I'm wondering if everybody 0:02:19.120 --> 0:02:23.280 else is freaking out just like me because I'm already thinking, um, 0:02:23.600 --> 0:02:25.880 x amount of miles in the air. I don't have 0:02:26.000 --> 0:02:29.520 cell phone service. I need to tell my editors, like 0:02:29.600 --> 0:02:32.240 what's going on. I'm panicking a little bit inside, and 0:02:32.280 --> 0:02:34.799 I look around it. Everybody else has the same look 0:02:34.800 --> 0:02:37.799 of horror. You know, how long will it take until 0:02:38.040 --> 0:02:40.680 you know? I'm looking at my phone like when can 0:02:40.720 --> 0:02:42.480 I get a bar? When can I get a bar? 0:02:43.160 --> 0:02:46.399 When the plane landed, the news rippled like an explosion 0:02:46.440 --> 0:02:50.280 across TikTok's teenage users. So it was actually I was 0:02:50.320 --> 0:02:52.959 in my room because I believe it was like one 0:02:53.080 --> 0:02:55.960 or two in the morning here for me, and I 0:02:56.000 --> 0:02:58.240 was about to go to bed, and then I get 0:02:58.280 --> 0:03:01.680 a call from my friends and he's like, oh my gosh, 0:03:01.960 --> 0:03:05.680 did you hear what happened? And then apparently, you know, 0:03:05.880 --> 0:03:08.840 Trump said that TikTok he was going to ban TikTok tomorrow, 0:03:09.040 --> 0:03:12.679 like and it was Friday night. That's Gabby Murray. She's nineteen. 0:03:13.080 --> 0:03:16.360 She's a popular TikTok star who's spoken on previous episodes. 0:03:16.760 --> 0:03:18.720 It was kind of almost like a little panic thing, 0:03:18.880 --> 0:03:21.679 and you know, all night I was like freaking out 0:03:21.919 --> 0:03:25.400 and like I really couldn't calm down. I was super upset, 0:03:25.560 --> 0:03:28.320 and I was like, is this really the end? Teens 0:03:28.360 --> 0:03:31.720 on TikTok were spiraling and the late night TV shows 0:03:31.800 --> 0:03:34.480 were eating this up. That's right. Instead of stopping a 0:03:34.560 --> 0:03:37.640 pandemic or helping unemployed Americans, he's pretending he has the 0:03:37.720 --> 0:03:41.560 power to unilaterally ban a social media app. Apparently this 0:03:41.640 --> 0:03:44.720 is a very real national security threat, the Chinese government 0:03:44.760 --> 0:03:47.680 knowing which Americans canon can't dance? What is he doing? 0:03:47.760 --> 0:03:49.560 Is he the President of the United States or the 0:03:49.760 --> 0:03:53.720 preacher from Footloose? And things were about to get even weirder. 0:03:54.520 --> 0:03:58.720 You're listening to Foundering. I'm your host, Shelley Bancho. This 0:03:58.800 --> 0:04:02.120 is the last episode of our series about TikTok. It's 0:04:02.120 --> 0:04:05.640 the story of an improbable rise. The app captured the 0:04:05.680 --> 0:04:09.480 attention of an entire generation. It became the first social 0:04:09.520 --> 0:04:12.960 media app from China to build a global following. But 0:04:13.040 --> 0:04:16.479 TikTok became a victim of its own success. It grew 0:04:16.520 --> 0:04:18.280 to be so big that it got caught in a 0:04:18.440 --> 0:04:22.400 standoff between the US and China. And this was only 0:04:22.440 --> 0:04:26.400 the start of its problems. President Trump became so obsessed 0:04:26.400 --> 0:04:28.960 with TikTok. He threatened to kick it out of the 0:04:29.080 --> 0:04:32.960 US altogether. We asked TikTok to comment on this episode, 0:04:33.400 --> 0:04:36.560 and a spokesperson referred me to a previous statement from 0:04:36.680 --> 0:04:41.120 Vanessa Papas, the CEO of TikTok. She said, when it 0:04:41.160 --> 0:04:44.679 comes to safety and security, we're building the safest app. 0:04:45.400 --> 0:04:48.760 We're here for the long run. More on that after 0:04:48.800 --> 0:05:03.680 a quick break by Dances. CEO John gi Ming is 0:05:03.720 --> 0:05:07.520 known as a quiet guy, a workaholic who avoids the limelight. 0:05:08.040 --> 0:05:11.440 But when President Trump went after TikTok, it felt like 0:05:11.480 --> 0:05:15.000 a personal affront because you means spent his whole life 0:05:15.000 --> 0:05:19.159 striving to become a successful entrepreneur, and just when he 0:05:19.240 --> 0:05:24.120 succeeded in taking TikTok global and fulfilling his lifelong dream, 0:05:24.240 --> 0:05:27.799 the American President wanted to take it away from him. 0:05:27.839 --> 0:05:30.640 It's bizarre thinking back on it now, but for a 0:05:30.640 --> 0:05:35.679 really significant portion of Trump's attention was focused not only 0:05:35.800 --> 0:05:40.520 on coronavirus, the Democrats, or impeachment. He was zeroed in 0:05:40.560 --> 0:05:45.159 on TikTok. So, after Trump says he's going to ban TikTok, 0:05:45.720 --> 0:05:49.640 you mean, does something unexpected. He fires off a series 0:05:49.680 --> 0:05:52.960 of letters to employees and says the company is facing 0:05:53.000 --> 0:05:56.960 an existential crisis. I asked my colleague to read parts 0:05:56.960 --> 0:06:00.240 of these letters. They're translated and edited for Claire Party. 0:06:01.040 --> 0:06:03.600 These past few months have been a challenging time for 0:06:03.720 --> 0:06:06.880 us all and over the last week you've probably heard 0:06:06.960 --> 0:06:10.400 a lot of speculation about TikTok in the media. As 0:06:10.400 --> 0:06:13.640 you may know, in the current environment, we faced a 0:06:13.720 --> 0:06:17.880 real possibility of a forced sale of TikTok's US business 0:06:18.000 --> 0:06:20.800 or an executive order banning the app in the US. 0:06:21.480 --> 0:06:24.320 Sources told me that you mean new politicians were using 0:06:24.320 --> 0:06:27.440 TikTok as a punching bag, but he refused to believe 0:06:27.480 --> 0:06:30.359 that the US president whatever really shut down the app. 0:06:30.960 --> 0:06:35.279 That just seemed unthinkable. In one lettering sounds almost mournful 0:06:35.440 --> 0:06:39.240 about all the work that had been poured into TikTok. Yesterday, 0:06:39.360 --> 0:06:42.760 I worked until dawn. Before I went to bed, I 0:06:42.839 --> 0:06:45.600 opened my phone and saw someone post a photo from 0:06:45.600 --> 0:06:49.280 our office building in Shinjin. At five thirty in the morning, 0:06:49.960 --> 0:06:53.279 the lights were still one. Let's be honest, many of 0:06:53.279 --> 0:06:57.400 our Chinese colleagues have made personal sacrifices, and I'll push 0:06:57.480 --> 0:07:00.920 to become a global company. You mean living in China, 0:07:01.279 --> 0:07:03.440 but he was keeping us ours to deal with the 0:07:03.520 --> 0:07:08.400 Trump fallout. That's a twelve hour time difference. I mean 0:07:08.560 --> 0:07:13.160 was frustrated he felt unfairly singled out. I actually understand 0:07:13.200 --> 0:07:16.960 that as a Chinese company that's reached global status, people 0:07:17.000 --> 0:07:19.960 will hold us to a highest standard, but we don't 0:07:19.960 --> 0:07:23.680 have accurate information about us. He says. The US government 0:07:23.760 --> 0:07:26.720 was overreaching and its attempts to force TikTok to sell 0:07:27.160 --> 0:07:30.040 as a company, we have no choice but to abide 0:07:30.040 --> 0:07:32.720 by the law. But that's not what be out a 0:07:32.800 --> 0:07:36.480 side once. Their real goal is a full blown embargo 0:07:37.000 --> 0:07:40.880 and more. Eming acknowledges that things might seem like a disaster, 0:07:41.360 --> 0:07:44.600 but he urges employees to hold steady. We need to 0:07:44.640 --> 0:07:48.360 show the vise misunderstandings. For the time being, we hope 0:07:48.400 --> 0:07:51.200 that people will not be too concerned about the shotdown 0:07:51.320 --> 0:07:55.240 damage to our reputation. Let's be patient and do the 0:07:55.320 --> 0:07:59.680 right thing. The TikTok band caught the company by surprise. 0:08:00.360 --> 0:08:03.280 Their new CEO, Kevin Mayer, had only been on the 0:08:03.360 --> 0:08:07.520 job for two months. They hired Kevin from Disney. They 0:08:07.560 --> 0:08:10.760 hoped an American executive leading the company might get the 0:08:10.840 --> 0:08:14.000 U s government off their backs, but Trump went after 0:08:14.040 --> 0:08:18.400 them anyway. That led to another question, could an American 0:08:18.520 --> 0:08:22.280 president even ban a social media app? There was no 0:08:22.400 --> 0:08:25.960 precedent for this. I spoke with my colleague Kurt Wagner, 0:08:26.320 --> 0:08:29.880 He's a social media reporter. I remember my reaction was 0:08:29.960 --> 0:08:34.480 basically to laugh, Is this something he can he can 0:08:34.559 --> 0:08:37.520 legally do? Right? Can he just tell people they can't 0:08:38.280 --> 0:08:41.320 have this app on their phones? And if so, how 0:08:41.400 --> 0:08:44.320 would you even go about enforcing that right? But you know, 0:08:44.400 --> 0:08:47.079 as with a lot of things with the Trump administration, 0:08:47.320 --> 0:08:52.199 I think very quickly, you you learned that just because 0:08:52.240 --> 0:08:54.719 something doesn't really make sense on the surface doesn't mean 0:08:54.720 --> 0:08:59.280 that it's not being seriously pursued behind the scenes. The 0:08:59.320 --> 0:09:03.000 TikTok and seemed to be about more than the app itself. 0:09:03.600 --> 0:09:08.800 I think it became immediately clear that TikTok was being 0:09:08.920 --> 0:09:12.560 used in this broader trade war with China. You realize 0:09:12.600 --> 0:09:16.880 that it's not really about the app itself. It's about 0:09:16.920 --> 0:09:21.040 the leverage that I think Trump and his administration thought 0:09:21.080 --> 0:09:25.280 that they would have over over China. And so what 0:09:25.360 --> 0:09:29.080 was expected to happen was for President Trump to come 0:09:29.080 --> 0:09:33.280 out and say byte Dance needs to basically sell off 0:09:34.000 --> 0:09:38.720 the US version of TikTok, and so as a result, 0:09:39.640 --> 0:09:42.880 byte Dance was then in the market for a buyer 0:09:43.000 --> 0:09:46.200 of its US business, and there was one name that 0:09:46.240 --> 0:09:50.679 floated to the top as a potential buyer. Microsoft e 0:09:50.800 --> 0:09:53.679 Ming had already held a number of secret meetings with 0:09:53.720 --> 0:09:57.080 Microsoft CEO sat An Indella to talk about how they 0:09:57.080 --> 0:10:00.280 could work together. But once the Trump and Minister station 0:10:00.400 --> 0:10:05.319 turned up the heat on TikTok, those talks escalated. Microsoft 0:10:05.400 --> 0:10:07.400 put out a statement saying they were in talks to 0:10:07.480 --> 0:10:11.280 buy TikTok, and sources tell me that Donald Trump personally 0:10:11.320 --> 0:10:15.200 called Microsoft CEO to ask for specific items to be 0:10:15.240 --> 0:10:18.480 included in the press release before it went out. Yeah, 0:10:18.559 --> 0:10:22.520 companies do not announce deals before deals are done. Typically, 0:10:22.679 --> 0:10:26.319 the letter from Microsoft was very uncommon. Typically, when a 0:10:26.360 --> 0:10:31.480 company like Microsoft by by TikTok, Microsoft and TikTok are talking, 0:10:31.960 --> 0:10:34.280 you don't have the President of the United States and 0:10:34.360 --> 0:10:38.360 his administration part of the negotiation. But this was not 0:10:38.440 --> 0:10:42.480 a normal acquisition, and you did have the President as 0:10:42.520 --> 0:10:46.000 part of the negotiation. Will you read that press release 0:10:46.040 --> 0:10:49.400 that Microsoft put out. Yeah? Um, so this was from 0:10:49.440 --> 0:10:54.240 their corporate blog and it says following a conversation between 0:10:54.360 --> 0:10:59.199 Microsoft CEO Satia Adela and President Donald J. Trump, Microsoft 0:10:59.240 --> 0:11:02.360 is prepared to continue discussions to explore a purchase of 0:11:02.400 --> 0:11:07.280 TikTok in the United States. Microsoft fully appreciates the importance 0:11:07.320 --> 0:11:11.720 of addressing the President's concerns. It is committed to acquiring TikTok, 0:11:11.880 --> 0:11:16.400 subject to a complete security review and providing proper economic 0:11:16.440 --> 0:11:20.960 benefits to the United States. Microsoft appreciates the US governments 0:11:21.000 --> 0:11:26.480 and President Trump's personal involvement. What the heck is proper 0:11:26.600 --> 0:11:33.800 economic benefits to the United States. This was a very 0:11:33.840 --> 0:11:37.240 fun and bizarre wrinkle to this whole story. It was 0:11:37.320 --> 0:11:42.600 kind of learned later that President Trump was actually expecting 0:11:42.760 --> 0:11:49.400 some kind of payment in return for facilitating this arrangement. Right, 0:11:49.559 --> 0:11:54.559 So it struck a lot of people as being um, 0:11:54.600 --> 0:11:59.360 not only legally dubious, but certainly ethically dubious. Right, Like, 0:11:59.440 --> 0:12:04.040 here's the president. He's demanding that this deal get done, 0:12:04.559 --> 0:12:07.719 and then on top of that, he's demanding that some 0:12:07.800 --> 0:12:11.120 type of payment go back to this says the U. S. Treasury. 0:12:11.160 --> 0:12:13.600 There was speculation that it would even be you know, 0:12:13.679 --> 0:12:22.920 to Trump himself. When we asked Microsoft about Trump's role 0:12:22.960 --> 0:12:27.080 in the negotiations. They declined to comment. This was a 0:12:27.160 --> 0:12:30.960 sobering moment for Yeming. It looked like TikTok could be 0:12:31.000 --> 0:12:36.080 snatched away for reasons outside its control. TikTok's fate seemed 0:12:36.080 --> 0:12:38.599 to rest on the whims of President Trump. There was 0:12:38.640 --> 0:12:41.400 a lot of discussion at this time as well about 0:12:42.559 --> 0:12:46.400 this idea of maybe just using TikTok as a distraction, right, 0:12:46.600 --> 0:12:51.280 Like this was when the COVID fight was not going well. 0:12:51.520 --> 0:12:54.240 You know, the election is coming up, right, and the 0:12:54.280 --> 0:12:57.880 President was running out of money for his election efforts. 0:12:57.960 --> 0:13:00.600 So like this was something that he felt he could 0:13:00.600 --> 0:13:05.080 exert some level of control over that maybe you know, 0:13:05.200 --> 0:13:08.200 other parts of his life and life in America at 0:13:08.240 --> 0:13:11.200 that time, he didn't really have that. We'll be right back. 0:13:17.559 --> 0:13:20.920 So this is when the clock starts ticking because Trump 0:13:20.920 --> 0:13:23.400 makes good on his threats. He issues a pair of 0:13:23.440 --> 0:13:26.839 executive orders giving TikTok a forty five day deadline to 0:13:26.880 --> 0:13:30.200 find a buyer. Sources told me that Eming was reluctant 0:13:30.280 --> 0:13:33.280 to sell his business, but he was under pressure because 0:13:33.280 --> 0:13:36.920 the band was looming and his investors, who had sunk 0:13:36.960 --> 0:13:39.960 seven point five billion dollars into by Dance over the 0:13:40.040 --> 0:13:43.840 years wanted their payout before it was too late. Over 0:13:43.920 --> 0:13:47.680 in China, Eming wasn't hot water too. Because his attempts 0:13:47.679 --> 0:13:51.600 to appease the US government were really unpopular. People flooded 0:13:51.600 --> 0:13:55.160 Eming social media with messages slamming his choice to sell. 0:13:55.720 --> 0:13:58.120 They called him a U S lab doog, a trader. 0:13:58.720 --> 0:14:02.680 They accused him of kneeling Washington and betraying China. Here's 0:14:02.720 --> 0:14:06.240 former tech banker Roy Mom. They felt that Johniming was 0:14:06.320 --> 0:14:09.199 really just giving in without a fight. Um, how can 0:14:09.280 --> 0:14:13.720 you just given to the American government, you know, with 0:14:13.720 --> 0:14:15.719 with their demands just like that, right. It's because it 0:14:15.760 --> 0:14:18.400 seemed like it was overnight. It was like the executive 0:14:18.480 --> 0:14:21.840 order came out and then John was like, okay, you know, 0:14:22.320 --> 0:14:25.320 that's what it felt like. So TikTok found itself in 0:14:25.360 --> 0:14:28.920 this situation where they were criticized in China for being 0:14:29.000 --> 0:14:33.000 too American and they were criticized in America for being 0:14:33.000 --> 0:14:37.720 too Chinese. Then the Chinese government decided to step in 0:14:38.160 --> 0:14:42.080 new rules in China over the technology it exports. May 0:14:42.120 --> 0:14:46.640 mean selling TikTok in the US could need approval from Beijing. 0:14:47.120 --> 0:14:50.120 In the meantime, deal talks for TikTok's US operations have 0:14:50.320 --> 0:14:53.840 hit a bit of a snag, or maybe an entire roadblock. 0:14:54.360 --> 0:14:58.080 Until this moment, the Chinese government had mostly stayed out 0:14:58.120 --> 0:15:02.000 of Trump's fight with TikTok, but they intervened once it 0:15:02.040 --> 0:15:06.120 looked like advanced AI technology created by TikTok's Chinese parent 0:15:06.200 --> 0:15:09.440 company might end up in the US. They came out 0:15:09.480 --> 0:15:12.280 with a new law that prohibited any sort of sale 0:15:12.280 --> 0:15:17.160 of TikTok without China's approval. Sources told me this shock teaming. 0:15:17.720 --> 0:15:20.800 He didn't see it coming. TikTok was stuck between the 0:15:20.840 --> 0:15:23.760 push and pull of the two countries. They needed to 0:15:23.760 --> 0:15:27.960 move fast. Their American investors decided to take matters into 0:15:28.000 --> 0:15:31.920 their own hands. They start back channeling with Trump administration 0:15:31.960 --> 0:15:36.280 officials including Jared Kushner and Steve minu Chin to drive 0:15:36.400 --> 0:15:38.920 up the price of TikTok and to find a buyer 0:15:39.120 --> 0:15:44.320 that Trump would deem acceptable. That buyer was Oracle. Oracle 0:15:44.400 --> 0:15:47.760 is a big technology company that mostly built software products 0:15:47.840 --> 0:15:51.600 for businesses, not social media, so they seemed like a 0:15:51.640 --> 0:15:55.800 weird match for TikTok. What Oracle did have was a 0:15:55.840 --> 0:16:00.440 lot of money and very close relationships with President Trump. 0:16:02.400 --> 0:16:06.800 And if your TikTok, half the battle is bringing Trump 0:16:06.920 --> 0:16:09.720 a deal that he will approve, and so I think 0:16:09.720 --> 0:16:14.040 there was some feeling that if Oracle were to make 0:16:14.080 --> 0:16:17.080 a bid, it might be more likely to get his 0:16:17.440 --> 0:16:21.400 stamp of approval. The relationship between Oracle and Trump was 0:16:21.440 --> 0:16:26.320 pretty cozy. Oracle executives donated tens of thousands of dollars 0:16:26.320 --> 0:16:31.400 to Trump's campaigns. It's CEO served on the president's transition team, 0:16:31.440 --> 0:16:34.280 and the founder even lent Trump his own house in 0:16:34.360 --> 0:16:39.360 California for a fundraiser. Oracle made a billion dollar offer 0:16:39.520 --> 0:16:43.520 for TikTok's US business, but just when it looked like 0:16:43.520 --> 0:16:47.960 a possible solution was on the table, another bomb was dropped. 0:16:48.400 --> 0:16:51.800 The CEO of TikTok has resigned. Kevin Mayer led the 0:16:51.800 --> 0:16:55.160 company for just three months. Mayor said, quote, the political 0:16:55.240 --> 0:16:58.840 environment has sharply changed. He says he's thought about what 0:16:58.880 --> 0:17:00.960 the next phase of TikTok is going to look like, 0:17:01.240 --> 0:17:05.880 and it's not going to include him. I call TikTok, 0:17:06.000 --> 0:17:08.879 I call sources, and I'm like, what the heck is 0:17:08.880 --> 0:17:12.640 going on? And very quickly learned that he had just 0:17:12.840 --> 0:17:17.280 emailed um the company to say that he was stepping down, 0:17:17.520 --> 0:17:21.320 and this was not only shocking because he had only 0:17:21.359 --> 0:17:24.439 been there a short amount of time, But Kevin is 0:17:24.480 --> 0:17:28.240 not a low key higher, if you will, like, he 0:17:28.359 --> 0:17:32.439 was a really big deal. He was a longtime executive 0:17:32.480 --> 0:17:36.119 at Disney. He was incredibly successful there, and it was 0:17:36.160 --> 0:17:40.160 a pretty um dramatic exit. I love that you categorize 0:17:40.160 --> 0:17:43.240 it as not a low key higher because I remember 0:17:43.359 --> 0:17:45.960 that as soon as he was hired, they started talking 0:17:45.960 --> 0:17:49.800 about their American CEO who lives in Los Angeles, and 0:17:50.200 --> 0:17:53.080 you know, they really attached themselves on this all American 0:17:53.280 --> 0:17:56.920 CEO image. And in the end, you know, he only 0:17:56.960 --> 0:18:00.880 spent three months there and giving has been way way 0:18:00.920 --> 0:18:03.719 more time trying to find the perfect CEO, and then 0:18:03.760 --> 0:18:06.919 they find him and then he leaves after a hundred days. 0:18:07.560 --> 0:18:11.120 And I also remember that Kevin wasn't really a good 0:18:11.160 --> 0:18:14.800 fit with the company's corporate culture. The CEO, John Giming 0:18:14.840 --> 0:18:18.280 at by Dwans, really wanted to hire this corporate soldier, 0:18:18.480 --> 0:18:21.480 this American face, who would kind of right the ship 0:18:21.760 --> 0:18:24.240 in the US and kind of do what he's told, 0:18:24.720 --> 0:18:27.439 and that it didn't really work out that way because 0:18:27.600 --> 0:18:29.720 Kevin really wanted to have a say in all the 0:18:29.800 --> 0:18:34.359 different decisions, and later on sources told me that I 0:18:34.480 --> 0:18:39.560 mean told co workers that he regretted hiring Kevin. TikTok 0:18:39.600 --> 0:18:43.440 declined to comment on Kevin Mayer's departure. A few months 0:18:43.480 --> 0:18:46.479 after he stepped down, Kevin spoke to my colleague Emily 0:18:46.560 --> 0:18:50.000 Chang on Bloomberg TV, why did you leave and and 0:18:50.040 --> 0:18:53.040 do you have any regrets about that? I left because 0:18:53.720 --> 0:18:57.399 the job that I had, that I had signed up 0:18:57.400 --> 0:18:59.920 for and that I was I was I was doing, 0:19:00.680 --> 0:19:03.400 looked like it was not going to exist anymore, and 0:19:03.640 --> 0:19:04.960 you know, there was going to be a deal with 0:19:05.280 --> 0:19:08.720 Microsoft or Oraculture got to the Oracle, and at that 0:19:08.760 --> 0:19:11.800 time it seems like the right time for me to depart. 0:19:12.280 --> 0:19:14.960 I don't want to rehash that too much. Why do 0:19:14.960 --> 0:19:19.920 you think US politicians get wrong about TikTok Um. Look, 0:19:19.920 --> 0:19:26.200 I think they think that TikTok is Um is controlled 0:19:26.200 --> 0:19:28.480 by the Chinese government, and I just never found it 0:19:28.520 --> 0:19:30.200 to be the case. I think the team in China 0:19:30.240 --> 0:19:32.639 has done a great job of it. In Kevin's place, 0:19:33.000 --> 0:19:36.600 by Dance's CEO, John gi Ming elevates an executive named 0:19:36.640 --> 0:19:40.679 Vanessa Papa's She's run big parts of TikTok for years, 0:19:41.480 --> 0:19:44.280 and she wrote the playbook on turning social media fame 0:19:44.760 --> 0:19:48.280 into a career. But she's been passed over multiple times 0:19:48.359 --> 0:19:51.960 for the top job at TikTok. Still, Vanessa has stayed 0:19:52.000 --> 0:19:55.439 loyal to Ming. I interviewed her over the phone. I 0:19:55.520 --> 0:19:58.719 just have to ask, because it's my job. What's the latest? 0:19:58.920 --> 0:20:01.360 If you can say anything that the deal note negotiations 0:20:01.359 --> 0:20:02.920 of whether or not will be an answer by the 0:20:03.119 --> 0:20:08.320 STEM I cannot share, but understand you have to ask 0:20:10.040 --> 0:20:14.280 fair enough. Vanessa wasn't giving away much, but she did 0:20:14.320 --> 0:20:18.200 allude to a change unfolding it. TikTok eating had been 0:20:18.240 --> 0:20:22.000 cooperating with the sell off of his company, but Vanessa 0:20:22.040 --> 0:20:25.439 indicated that he could be shifting away from that mindset. No. 0:20:25.640 --> 0:20:28.800 I think we've been really strong in our statements. So 0:20:29.119 --> 0:20:31.919 you know, we have expressed that we disagree with the 0:20:31.960 --> 0:20:36.159 executive order. UM, we are pursuing a number of pass 0:20:36.240 --> 0:20:40.679 forward and we are positive in that, you know, we 0:20:40.880 --> 0:20:43.919 think we'll have a positive outcome. Heres Vanessa telling me 0:20:44.040 --> 0:20:47.199 they might have a positive outcome was revealing. It was 0:20:47.280 --> 0:20:50.159 the first hint that TikTok thought they might not have 0:20:50.240 --> 0:20:53.600 to cave to Trump's demands. After all, TikTok was gearing 0:20:53.680 --> 0:20:56.359 up for a fight. After months of being kicked around 0:20:56.359 --> 0:21:00.280 by the White House, the company starts running television ad 0:21:00.280 --> 0:21:04.199 to say so easy to make, almost as if they 0:21:04.200 --> 0:21:08.920 were taunting the President, using the ban as a marketing ploy. Today, 0:21:09.000 --> 0:21:11.399 years old, it works. I can't believe I learned all 0:21:11.400 --> 0:21:15.280 that on here. TikTok could go away at any moment, 0:21:15.600 --> 0:21:18.240 so you better get it now. This drove a huge 0:21:18.280 --> 0:21:22.160 spike in downloads and revenue. Next TikTok takes the fight 0:21:22.200 --> 0:21:26.880 to court. There were three separate lawsuits from TikTok, its users, 0:21:27.080 --> 0:21:30.760 and its employees. I spoke to Patrick Ryan, He's a 0:21:30.800 --> 0:21:34.119 TikTok engineer behind one of the lawsuits. He told me 0:21:34.160 --> 0:21:38.399 he felt personally attacked by Trump's executive orders. He didn't 0:21:38.440 --> 0:21:41.720 like being accused of sending data on Americans over to China. 0:21:42.320 --> 0:21:45.960 I thought about these accusations, so when I read through 0:21:45.960 --> 0:21:50.240 those things, I read those accusations not as being accusations 0:21:50.240 --> 0:21:52.560 just against the company, but his accusations against me, you know, 0:21:52.640 --> 0:21:56.400 as a employee of the company and in a position 0:21:57.520 --> 0:22:00.959 to know. Patrick says is in a position to know 0:22:01.200 --> 0:22:04.720 because he works in data security. He joined TikTok just 0:22:04.840 --> 0:22:08.320 months before Trump announced the band. Patrick left behind a 0:22:08.400 --> 0:22:11.480 cushy job at Google. He was one of hundreds of 0:22:11.480 --> 0:22:15.440 TikTok employees who joined after the pandemic. Many had never 0:22:15.520 --> 0:22:19.119 met their colleagues in person. They were already feeling vulnerable 0:22:19.200 --> 0:22:22.720 when the President started attacking their employer for something they 0:22:22.760 --> 0:22:25.760 didn't even believe they were doing wrong. I feel like 0:22:26.000 --> 0:22:28.280 I'm in the middle of a square and you know, 0:22:28.280 --> 0:22:29.679 there's just a couple of us, and I feel like 0:22:29.720 --> 0:22:32.639 we're getting kicked. And I feel like a lot of 0:22:32.640 --> 0:22:36.359 people are watching and they're not doing anything because they 0:22:36.400 --> 0:22:39.920 think that maybe we deserve it if they haven't seen 0:22:39.920 --> 0:22:43.760 any evidence. So Patrick sued the Trump administration on behalf 0:22:43.760 --> 0:22:47.960 of TikTok employees, and then there was another even more 0:22:48.080 --> 0:22:52.360 powerful lawsuit from the TikTok users themselves, Becasette and I'm 0:22:52.400 --> 0:22:55.480 suing Trump. What does this mean? That's Kasette Nab in 0:22:55.520 --> 0:22:58.920 a TikTok video. She was one of three TikTok creators 0:22:58.960 --> 0:23:01.200 that sued the Trump and Illustration to put a stop 0:23:01.240 --> 0:23:03.359 to the band. Tick talk is all about using your 0:23:03.400 --> 0:23:05.399 voice to reach a global audience, and this is what 0:23:05.480 --> 0:23:08.120 the First Amendment is all about the president's executive order 0:23:08.240 --> 0:23:11.240 is violating our freedom of speech. And this lawsuit looked 0:23:11.320 --> 0:23:15.439 like a grassroots effort, but it wasn't. Sources told me 0:23:15.480 --> 0:23:19.400 that TikTok recruited creators to file the lawsuit, connected them 0:23:19.400 --> 0:23:24.119 with powerful First Amendment lawyers, and help craft the legal strategy. 0:23:24.440 --> 0:23:28.720 In essence, TikTok orchestrated the whole thing. When I asked 0:23:28.720 --> 0:23:31.760 the company about this, they didn't want to comment. My 0:23:31.880 --> 0:23:34.800 sources told me that this lawsuit played right into a 0:23:34.840 --> 0:23:39.120 calculated strategy by TikTok to cultivate a group of everyday 0:23:39.119 --> 0:23:42.719 Americans who use the app, depend on the app, and 0:23:42.720 --> 0:23:45.359 we'll speak out in defense of TikTok. You want to 0:23:45.359 --> 0:23:52.639 make sure that you've got a array of validators and 0:23:52.680 --> 0:23:56.160 in some cases amplifiers of your message that are going 0:23:56.440 --> 0:24:00.840 to have influence in the US market. That's Brett Bruin. 0:24:01.200 --> 0:24:04.280 He's a crisis manager who was watching these lawsuits closely. 0:24:04.760 --> 0:24:09.239 Brett served as a diplomat under President Obama. There is 0:24:09.320 --> 0:24:14.240 not any better strategy that I can think of than 0:24:14.760 --> 0:24:20.960 to get the most influential voices and align them with 0:24:21.080 --> 0:24:27.119 my product, align them with my policy preferences. So it 0:24:27.320 --> 0:24:34.840 is not TikTok versus Trump. It is this army of influencers, 0:24:34.960 --> 0:24:38.359 and this is a lawsuit that worked. The judge sided 0:24:38.400 --> 0:24:41.000 with the creators and put a temporary block on the band. 0:24:41.880 --> 0:24:45.159 And the most ironic part to me was, here's Byte Dance, 0:24:45.280 --> 0:24:49.119 this company from China where speech is highly censored, and 0:24:49.119 --> 0:24:52.680 they're leaning on the US Constitution the right to free speech. 0:24:53.640 --> 0:24:56.360 So TikTok got a reprieve from the band, but there 0:24:56.440 --> 0:24:59.680 was still the matter of the sale. We'll be right back. 0:25:09.000 --> 0:25:11.879 One afternoon in September, I got an email from my 0:25:11.920 --> 0:25:16.119 colleague who reports on Microsoft. It said hearing from a 0:25:16.160 --> 0:25:18.879