1 00:00:00,920 --> 00:00:04,240 Speaker 1: Hi. This is Laura Vanderkam. I'm a mother of four, 2 00:00:04,600 --> 00:00:08,440 Speaker 1: an author, journalist, and speaker. And this is Sarah hart Hunger. 3 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:11,800 Speaker 1: I'm a mother of three, practicing position and blogger. On 4 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:14,600 Speaker 1: the side, we are two working parents who love our 5 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:17,920 Speaker 1: careers and our families. Welcome to best of both worlds. 6 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:21,520 Speaker 1: Here we talk about how real women manage work, family, 7 00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:25,360 Speaker 1: and time for fun, from figuring out childcare to mapping 8 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:28,240 Speaker 1: out long term career goals. We want you to get 9 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:33,040 Speaker 1: the most out of life. Welcome to best of both worlds. 10 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:36,360 Speaker 1: This is Laura. This is episode sixty three. We have 11 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:39,600 Speaker 1: a great interview for you guys today with Stacy Simon, 12 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:43,040 Speaker 1: who is a sleep psychologist, and we'll be talking a 13 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 1: lot about healthy child sleep, but in a very non 14 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:48,920 Speaker 1: judgment away. Don't worry. I know there's a lot of 15 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:53,199 Speaker 1: controversy about that and angry posts on blogs and forums, 16 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:57,360 Speaker 1: but not from Stacy. She's very reasonable and wants to 17 00:00:57,360 --> 00:00:59,280 Speaker 1: give us some advice that will hopefully help all of 18 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:03,800 Speaker 1: us sleep better. So yeah, we're looking forward to that. 19 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 1: Which Sarah, how's sleep going for you and how's that 20 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:09,959 Speaker 1: tying into the rest of your life? Right now? Sleep 21 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:13,399 Speaker 1: is still not quite there. I thought we were turning 22 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:16,040 Speaker 1: a corner. We were, we had several nights with like 23 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:18,959 Speaker 1: a ten hour stretch, But then in the past week, 24 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 1: and not so wonderfully coinciding with a rougher work week, 25 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:26,119 Speaker 1: she's been up a couple of times the night again. 26 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 1: So I feel like we're making gradual headway, but I'm 27 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:34,560 Speaker 1: sort of resigned to the fact that sleep consolidation may 28 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:37,479 Speaker 1: end up just being something that has to wait until 29 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 1: we are done with the whole pumping reliant on breast 30 00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:43,640 Speaker 1: milk kind of a saga. Yeah, well, and that was 31 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 1: part of the reasons that I mean, we were going 32 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:47,920 Speaker 1: to talk in this opener about going to conferences and 33 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:50,720 Speaker 1: work travel, you would I mean, you just decided it 34 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 1: was too much to try, And yeah, I just I 35 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 1: decided that. You know, it's not it was just my decision, 36 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:00,200 Speaker 1: not the right decision, but I just decided, and you 37 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:02,560 Speaker 1: know what, it's my last baby, I really want to 38 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:05,000 Speaker 1: keep doing this. It's kind of a priority for me 39 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:07,440 Speaker 1: this time around. So I'm just not going to travel 40 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:10,000 Speaker 1: until the end of the year because that's such a 41 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:12,200 Speaker 1: fine nite time. And then that kind of leaves me 42 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:14,480 Speaker 1: with the doors wide open. In twenty nineteen. So I 43 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:18,520 Speaker 1: actually like I'm living vicariously through next year's calendar to 44 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:21,640 Speaker 1: some extent, and I'm already really excited. Like I picked 45 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 1: the academic conference that I'm going to. If anyone's going 46 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:29,280 Speaker 1: to Pediatric Endocrinciety in Baltimore in twenty nineteen, let's hang out, 47 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 1: it's gonna be yeah, and uh, probably another one for 48 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:39,000 Speaker 1: my program director stuff. I don't know, I'm just kind 49 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 1: of really I am exciting, excited for the idea that 50 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 1: you know, evening work obligations sometimes they're fun, but for 51 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 1: this past year, they've really just been every single time 52 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:51,680 Speaker 1: I get invited to something or to do something, it's 53 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:54,399 Speaker 1: been like, oh, and I'm really excited for that weight 54 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:57,359 Speaker 1: to be lifted because there are opportunities that I'd like 55 00:02:57,440 --> 00:03:00,600 Speaker 1: to pursue. And yeah, I think setting that clear boundary 56 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:01,880 Speaker 1: for me is helpful. And I like that it's at 57 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:04,080 Speaker 1: the end of the calendar year two. Yeah, so yay 58 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:06,720 Speaker 1: twenty nineteen. I love the idea of you getting excited 59 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:10,360 Speaker 1: looking at your twenty nineteen planner. That's so, that's so 60 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:13,799 Speaker 1: how we are here. Have I you know when you're 61 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:16,200 Speaker 1: not when you don't have a bait. Since this episode 62 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:19,720 Speaker 1: is all about sleep, you sleep personally, like if you 63 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:21,680 Speaker 1: didn't have a nursing baby, sort of, what would your 64 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:26,239 Speaker 1: sleep look like. Yeah, so hmm, I tend to be 65 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:28,560 Speaker 1: an early riser, so I tend to go to bed 66 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:31,400 Speaker 1: around nine thirty to ten and get up a little 67 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:33,400 Speaker 1: bit before five. So I'm actually kind of okay with 68 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 1: about seven hours typically, and then I do tend to 69 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:38,440 Speaker 1: make up for it on weekends because I don't want 70 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 1: to get up that early on weekends, so maybe I'll 71 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 1: go to bed at eleven because we're out somewhere, or 72 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 1: maybe ten because we're not, and then I'll sleep till 73 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 1: like seven or when the kids wake up. So yeah, 74 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 1: seven most days, and then some rare makeup days of 75 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 1: like eight to nine, eight to nine, okay. Yeah, Well, 76 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 1: because I track my time, I know that my my 77 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 1: number is like seven point four hours per day, not everything, 78 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 1: not every day, not every day. So what that means 79 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:09,240 Speaker 1: is that averaged over a long period, like multi month period, 80 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 1: it will come out to seven point four. So it 81 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 1: doesn't mean seven point four per day, it doesn't even 82 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:16,200 Speaker 1: mean fifty one point eight per week. I've looked at 83 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:19,920 Speaker 1: my logs and it tends to range between forty six 84 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:22,600 Speaker 1: hours per week to fifty six hours per week, which 85 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:24,520 Speaker 1: probably makes sense that then you'd hit right in the 86 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:26,039 Speaker 1: middle is like fifty. I wonder if you could like 87 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 1: graph your productivity and mood for the forty six hour 88 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:30,920 Speaker 1: weeks forty six hour weeks for verstuy six hour weeks, 89 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 1: and I wonder if there would be a I suspect 90 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:37,080 Speaker 1: there would be a correlation. It's pretty hard to preserve, 91 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:39,240 Speaker 1: like the fifty six hours a week is. It's very 92 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:40,920 Speaker 1: hard to hit for me because I know that my 93 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:43,560 Speaker 1: number is seven point four. So as soon as I 94 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 1: go over it multiple days in a row, it's like 95 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 1: if there's been a lag before that, you know, a 96 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:51,080 Speaker 1: couple days of more than that, will we'll make up 97 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:54,360 Speaker 1: for it. And then I can't sleep more than that, 98 00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:56,520 Speaker 1: you know, I will, I will pop up or I 99 00:04:56,520 --> 00:04:58,880 Speaker 1: will not fall asleep at night. It usually is more 100 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:00,800 Speaker 1: popping up in the morning, which I'm yeah, me too, 101 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:02,840 Speaker 1: me too. I'm like tired at the end of the 102 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:04,520 Speaker 1: day no matter what. But if I've gotten enough sleep, 103 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 1: I'll find myself being like, Okay, it's five forty five 104 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:11,600 Speaker 1: on Saturday. Interesting, Yeah, so I'd say, the fifty six 105 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:13,719 Speaker 1: hour weeks are pretty rare, so I'm not sure that 106 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 1: that would be a you know, positive correlation with my 107 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:17,920 Speaker 1: productivity because that could also be a week I was 108 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:21,560 Speaker 1: like sick, which is why it would be high. But 109 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:23,720 Speaker 1: I think that the ones that are forty six are 110 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:26,400 Speaker 1: not that great in terms of productivity either. I think 111 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 1: it's probably you know, which would make sense that my 112 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:31,680 Speaker 1: peak productivity would be right about when I am every 113 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:35,200 Speaker 1: night getting what my number is. That would make sense. Well, 114 00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:36,960 Speaker 1: I'm going to go with my fantasies that I'm going 115 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:39,280 Speaker 1: to be super well rested and therefore next year is 116 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:43,040 Speaker 1: going to be like turbocharged. It sounds awesome. All right, Well, 117 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 1: we're getting ready to talk about sleep here. Well, we 118 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 1: are very excited to have Stacy Simon joining us for 119 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:54,640 Speaker 1: the podcast. Stacy, can you introduce yourself? Yeah? Absolutely. I 120 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:59,800 Speaker 1: am a sleep psychologist at a children's hospital, So I 121 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:03,560 Speaker 1: I work within a pediatric sleep clinic and I see 122 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 1: infants up to adolescents and their parents for a variety 123 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:11,000 Speaker 1: of sleep difficulties. And then I'm also a mom to 124 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:15,080 Speaker 1: three kids. I have twin boys that are five and 125 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 1: my daughter is three and a half. So she is 126 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 1: right in the sick of it with little kids. How 127 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:24,040 Speaker 1: did you become interested in sleep, because presumably you were 128 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 1: interested in child sleep before you had your own children, 129 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:29,679 Speaker 1: and whether or not they sleep. Where did the interests 130 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:33,160 Speaker 1: come from? Yeah, So I first became interested in sleep 131 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:38,200 Speaker 1: in graduate school. So I went to school for clinical 132 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:42,640 Speaker 1: and health psychology and began learning more and more about 133 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 1: sleep and had some great teachers. And I personally enjoy 134 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:51,320 Speaker 1: sleeping myself, so found it really interesting. And I know 135 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:55,560 Speaker 1: that if kids aren't sleeping, then parents are not sleeping 136 00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:58,359 Speaker 1: in the family, So it's just really important for the 137 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 1: whole household. So what does a sleep psychologist actually do? 138 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:05,039 Speaker 1: I mean, what's usually the reason that somebody has come 139 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:06,719 Speaker 1: to see you? And then and then what do you 140 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:12,160 Speaker 1: do with them? Yeah, So for the really young kids, 141 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:17,520 Speaker 1: I often see families because they are having difficulty falling 142 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:21,440 Speaker 1: asleep independently or waking up a lot during the night, 143 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 1: they might have fears about going to bed, or just 144 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 1: some general bedtime resistance. And then for the older kids 145 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 1: and teenagers, insomnia is really common, as is something called 146 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 1: delayed sleep phase, which is a circadian rhythm sleep disorder. 147 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 1: So a disorder of our body's internal clock, where kids 148 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 1: are not able to fall asleep until really late, and 149 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:50,119 Speaker 1: they'd prefer to sleep in very late, but often can't 150 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 1: because most high schools start pretty early in the morning. 151 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 1: And so if those families came to you, what would 152 00:07:57,080 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 1: you what would you do with them? Then? Yeah, So 153 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:06,320 Speaker 1: some common and recommendations that we'll talk about include sleep training, 154 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:09,680 Speaker 1: so for the younger kids, helping them learn how to 155 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 1: fall asleep and stay asleep on their own. And then 156 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 1: for the older kids, we use a lot of cognitive 157 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:21,040 Speaker 1: behavioral strategies for insomnia, so targeting some of the behaviors 158 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:24,680 Speaker 1: but also the thoughts and cognitions around sleep that can 159 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:27,520 Speaker 1: get in the way, so for example, having them use 160 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:30,800 Speaker 1: the bed just for sleeping, things like that. And what 161 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 1: does sleep training actually mean? Because I know that a 162 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:36,720 Speaker 1: lot of people have read various things online or angry 163 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 1: discussion for them what have you? So, what what do 164 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:44,559 Speaker 1: you particularly mean by sleep training? Yeah, so I really 165 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:49,240 Speaker 1: encourage families to think about sleep as a developmental milestone, 166 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:54,480 Speaker 1: as a life skill. So it's another piece of learning 167 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:59,040 Speaker 1: that kids have to do, just like walking, talking, potty training. 168 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 1: So parents can really help set their child up for 169 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:07,440 Speaker 1: success by having good sleep habits from the start. But 170 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:12,480 Speaker 1: if kids get into some habits where they really rely 171 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 1: on a parent in order to fall asleep, or they 172 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:19,320 Speaker 1: require being nursed or bottle fed in order to fall asleep, 173 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:22,839 Speaker 1: and we have some strategies to help them to learn 174 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:28,600 Speaker 1: how to sleep more on their own. For infants, really 175 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:32,240 Speaker 1: helping them to maintain sort of that eat place sleep 176 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:35,800 Speaker 1: schedule to avoid having a baby learned to fall asleep 177 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:41,319 Speaker 1: while eating or being rocked can be really helpful. Practicing 178 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:45,720 Speaker 1: putting an infant to bed while they're drowsy but still awake, 179 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:49,600 Speaker 1: and trying to gradually, over time get them on a 180 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:53,440 Speaker 1: more regular schedule, so having kind of approximate times for 181 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:58,040 Speaker 1: naps and bedtime and wake up time. And then if 182 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:02,960 Speaker 1: that isn't quite enough, there's still having a lot of 183 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:05,720 Speaker 1: wake ups in the night and really requiring parents to 184 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:08,600 Speaker 1: intervene to get them back to sleep. There are some 185 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:13,440 Speaker 1: different strategies like ranging from what parents have probably heard 186 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 1: cry it out to much more gradual strategies. So thinking 187 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:23,160 Speaker 1: about just gradually withdrawing the parent assistance to help kids 188 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:26,880 Speaker 1: and babies fall asleep. So in the beginning, if kids 189 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:29,920 Speaker 1: are used to being rocked to sleep. It may be 190 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:33,400 Speaker 1: putting them in the crib while they're still awake, but 191 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 1: still giving some support like patting their back, but gradually 192 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:41,280 Speaker 1: taking some of that assistance away as they gain the 193 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:44,400 Speaker 1: skills to fall asleep more and more on their own. Well, 194 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:47,480 Speaker 1: it's interesting you say that sleeping is a skill, because 195 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 1: it would certainly seem that our bodies should just know 196 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:55,240 Speaker 1: how to sleep, like we know how to breathe. It's 197 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:58,600 Speaker 1: something that you need, and yet you're saying that that's 198 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:00,960 Speaker 1: actually not the case. It's very differ mindset that it's 199 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:03,400 Speaker 1: a skill like any other that you have to learn. 200 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:06,600 Speaker 1: It's a skill more like potty training than a skill 201 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 1: like breathing. Well, it certainly is something that we all do, 202 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:15,480 Speaker 1: and everyone is different, so we know that everyone has 203 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 1: different sleep needs, and some kids certainly are easier than 204 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:23,440 Speaker 1: others in terms of sleep. But I do think that, 205 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:26,319 Speaker 1: you know, all kids can learn how to sleep. It 206 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:28,959 Speaker 1: just may be a little bit more challenging for some 207 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:32,680 Speaker 1: than others. Hi, can I ask a question with my 208 00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:37,160 Speaker 1: weak baby who has not learned to sleep? Right now? Hi, Stacy, 209 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:39,880 Speaker 1: I don't know. We didn't tell our listeners, but oh, 210 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:43,080 Speaker 1: Genevieve said, hi too, But the reason I'm mute it 211 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:44,520 Speaker 1: is because I was trying to put her for a 212 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:47,200 Speaker 1: nap and it didn't work very well. So I will 213 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:51,720 Speaker 1: admit to having done wrong on the nursing to sleep front. 214 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:54,839 Speaker 1: I was wondering, I mean, if someone is as many 215 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:58,240 Speaker 1: of our listeners do work outside the home and are 216 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 1: trying to breastfeed again, as many our listeners have attempted, 217 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:06,439 Speaker 1: how do you see that influencing the whole sleep training 218 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:09,679 Speaker 1: Because my sort of thoughts have been, like, well, from 219 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:13,360 Speaker 1: an evolutionary perspective, you know, if my baby's not getting 220 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:18,200 Speaker 1: off during the day, probably her answer to that would 221 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:19,640 Speaker 1: be to wake up more at night, and that kind 222 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:23,800 Speaker 1: of keeps things regulated, which has led me to feel 223 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:28,280 Speaker 1: really not against it. I think it works in certain scenarios, 224 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 1: but feel like it's not a good fit for that situation. 225 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 1: So I would love to hear your take on how 226 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:39,000 Speaker 1: those areas intersect. That's a really good point. So you know, 227 00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:43,920 Speaker 1: if parents want to restfeed yet have to go back 228 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 1: to work, sometimes that can be really challenging with pumping 229 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:52,880 Speaker 1: and supply, and so during the night, those night feedings 230 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:55,840 Speaker 1: may be some of the few times where you actually 231 00:12:55,920 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 1: get to nurse the baby. I think as those get older, 232 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:04,880 Speaker 1: so infants get older, they are more and more physically 233 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:08,720 Speaker 1: capable of getting most of their intake during the day 234 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 1: and not needing those night feedings as much. And obviously 235 00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 1: that'd be something to talk with you're pediatrician about making 236 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 1: sure kiddos are on their growth curve. But I think 237 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:22,600 Speaker 1: that there is definitely a way to promote good sleep 238 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:27,400 Speaker 1: habits while still maintaining that nursing relationships, So at bedtime, 239 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:31,600 Speaker 1: trying to just move nursing a little bit earlier in 240 00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:34,679 Speaker 1: the bedtime routine, so still being able to have that 241 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 1: closeness and that nice night feeding, but then after that 242 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:43,080 Speaker 1: trying to have another activity, whether it's you know, doing 243 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 1: a diaper change or reading a story, something to separate 244 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:51,360 Speaker 1: nursing from falling asleep directly, so that you can again 245 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:56,040 Speaker 1: practice putting babies into their cribs while they're ideally drowsy 246 00:13:56,080 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 1: but still awake. And then in terms of those night ways, 247 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 1: I think that it really is a personal decision based 248 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:08,079 Speaker 1: on a lot of different factors from growth and supply issues, 249 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:10,560 Speaker 1: but it may just be that it's not the right 250 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:14,800 Speaker 1: time to start any sort of formal sleep training until 251 00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:22,160 Speaker 1: you've decided to move on to formula feeding or introducing milk. Yeah, 252 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:24,920 Speaker 1: that's kind of my good feeling. Now, that's so funny 253 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 1: you say that about the you know, it's like for me, 254 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:31,320 Speaker 1: nursing is like it's like a sleep button, so you know, 255 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:35,600 Speaker 1: they fall asleep. So it sort of seems counterintuitive to 256 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:37,880 Speaker 1: be like, Okay, wake up, we're going to change your diaper. 257 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:42,240 Speaker 1: But I also yeah, but I also I also get 258 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:44,000 Speaker 1: that that it doesn't it sort of teaches her to 259 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:46,600 Speaker 1: associate the two. And it's sort of laughable about the 260 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:49,120 Speaker 1: growth curve. I mean, she's like nine years percentile or 261 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:53,360 Speaker 1: something crazy twenty one pounds in nine months. But whether 262 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:55,480 Speaker 1: her growth could support it is one question, and whether 263 00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:57,960 Speaker 1: my supply could support it is completely a separate one. 264 00:14:58,080 --> 00:14:59,840 Speaker 1: So I like that that maybe it's just a ma 265 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:03,240 Speaker 1: of readiness. And you know, since we've set twelve months 266 00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 1: as a goal, that will probably be the time that 267 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 1: we will go into high gear in terms of really 268 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:10,320 Speaker 1: trying to remodel those nights. Do you find that people 269 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 1: have a harder time kind of raining older children compared 270 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:17,960 Speaker 1: to younger or do you see that you know, that 271 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 1: there's no one size fits so there's definitely no one 272 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:24,200 Speaker 1: size fits all. I think it really just depends a 273 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:29,160 Speaker 1: lot on parent preference and then child temperament, and everyone 274 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:32,800 Speaker 1: knows their own baby the best and what they're ready 275 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:36,160 Speaker 1: to do. So I think waiting till you know you 276 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:41,480 Speaker 1: feel comfortable trying some other strategies. And again, it may 277 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 1: not necessarily be a really intensive sleep training that has 278 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:49,760 Speaker 1: to happen. It could be just gradually introducing some good 279 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 1: sleep habits and helping kids have those cues to fall 280 00:15:54,600 --> 00:16:01,040 Speaker 1: asleep that don't necessarily require a parent to be so involved. 281 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 1: I like that. Yeah, do some kids need less sleep 282 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:06,440 Speaker 1: than others. We've mentioned that, you know, every family is different, 283 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:10,440 Speaker 1: every kid is different. Is that true or so you 284 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 1: can talk a little bit about that. Yeah, So sleep 285 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:17,800 Speaker 1: needs vary by age, of course, and then individually, So 286 00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:21,080 Speaker 1: infants and newborns are going to be sleeping a majority 287 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:24,400 Speaker 1: of the day, and then by the time kids are 288 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:29,360 Speaker 1: school age they need a little bit less sleep. So 289 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 1: school age kids, the recommendation is that they get between 290 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:37,200 Speaker 1: nine to eleven hours of sleep at night, and then 291 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 1: our teenagers are recommended to get eight to ten hours 292 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:44,240 Speaker 1: of sleep at night, and so some kids are going 293 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 1: to be able to be sort of at that lower 294 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:50,320 Speaker 1: end of the recommendation, where other kids really need the 295 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 1: higher end to feel like they're functioning well during the day. 296 00:16:55,360 --> 00:17:00,640 Speaker 1: Occasionally we'll hear about people who are much short sleepers, 297 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:03,880 Speaker 1: who feel like they can function very well on much 298 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 1: less sleep, But for the most part, the majority of 299 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:11,840 Speaker 1: kids are going to fall within that range. Yeah, that's 300 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:14,119 Speaker 1: a pretty big range though. I mean nine hours for 301 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:18,760 Speaker 1: an elementary school student, if they start school, you know, 302 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:21,040 Speaker 1: nine in the morning. They could be waking up at 303 00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:23,560 Speaker 1: seven thirty, Like that's you know, going to bed at 304 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:26,159 Speaker 1: ten thirty, Like that's that's not exactly a you know, 305 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:28,159 Speaker 1: I've always been fascinated by a family is where the 306 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 1: kids sleep for just hours and hours. It was always better, 307 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:33,919 Speaker 1: And sometimes I feel like there's this value judgment, like 308 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:36,879 Speaker 1: you're better if your kid sleeps thirteen hours at night. 309 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:42,960 Speaker 1: There certainly seems to be some individual differences within a range, 310 00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:45,240 Speaker 1: and the range is helpful to know. Parents need a break, 311 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:46,960 Speaker 1: and so they're like, you're going about at seven thirty 312 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 1: regardless of whether the kid needs it or not. It's 313 00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:52,920 Speaker 1: just that they've decided to do that, although I think 314 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:55,960 Speaker 1: part of you know, for older kids, Stacy, what do 315 00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 1: you sort of recommend for them learning to have good 316 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 1: bedtime routines? I mean, certainly as you get past the 317 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:03,479 Speaker 1: the feeding and the diaper changes and all that. Like, 318 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:05,639 Speaker 1: how about older kids? What are good night time routines 319 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:10,400 Speaker 1: for older kids? So for school age kids, having that 320 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:18,399 Speaker 1: consistent bedtime, ideally avoiding screens, videos, or tablets before bed, 321 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:22,600 Speaker 1: and then having just a few consistent activities, so in 322 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:27,000 Speaker 1: addition to things like changing into pajamas, brushing teeth, it 323 00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:31,399 Speaker 1: may be reading some books or listening to music, just 324 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 1: some consistent kind of wind down activities that can help 325 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:39,199 Speaker 1: prepare their brain and body for sleep. And then for 326 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:42,520 Speaker 1: older kids and teenagers, they're going to want to have 327 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:45,720 Speaker 1: a little more autonomy over their sleep, but it's still 328 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:49,840 Speaker 1: really helpful for parents to maintain some limits. I really 329 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 1: recommend setting a bedtime for their electronics, so a time 330 00:18:54,280 --> 00:18:58,240 Speaker 1: where all cell phones and tablets and things turn off. 331 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 1: It can also be really helpfull to have a family 332 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 1: charging station, like in the kitchen or living room where 333 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:08,720 Speaker 1: everyone puts all their electronic devices to keep them out 334 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:11,800 Speaker 1: of the bedroom. And this can be helpful for us 335 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:15,199 Speaker 1: parents too, so that modeling is important and it's easy 336 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:17,640 Speaker 1: for us as parents to get sucked into our self 337 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:20,960 Speaker 1: sense as we're laying in bed at night. But for 338 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:25,960 Speaker 1: teenagers especially, really trying to help them to have enough 339 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:30,199 Speaker 1: opportunity to sleep, which can be really challenging. Especially as 340 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:34,480 Speaker 1: kids get older, they're more involved in extracurricular activities. They 341 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:38,199 Speaker 1: might be playing sports or have after school jobs, and 342 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:40,800 Speaker 1: then they have a lot of homework, so it can 343 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:43,679 Speaker 1: be challenging to get to bed at a good time. 344 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:47,359 Speaker 1: And then again, a lot of schools do start fairly early, 345 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:49,440 Speaker 1: so it can be hard when they have to wake 346 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:52,840 Speaker 1: up so early in the morning. Another thing for teenagers 347 00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:56,560 Speaker 1: is trying to avoid what we call this social jet lag. 348 00:19:57,000 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 1: So a lot of times teams on weekends like to 349 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:02,640 Speaker 1: sleep in really late, but then they have a hard 350 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:05,959 Speaker 1: time getting back on track Sunday night so that they 351 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:09,159 Speaker 1: can get up for school Monday morning. So it's like 352 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:13,320 Speaker 1: the equivalent of flying cross country every weekend, and that 353 00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:16,919 Speaker 1: can be really challenging. So again, I know teenagers like 354 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:19,679 Speaker 1: to stay up late and sleep in, but trying to 355 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:24,600 Speaker 1: encourage them to maintain a bit of a consistent schedule 356 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:27,040 Speaker 1: as much as possible. I mean, they're probably not going 357 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:30,480 Speaker 1: to wake up at six thirty on Saturday morning, you know, yeah, 358 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:32,920 Speaker 1: within it, within an hour or two. I mean, what 359 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:36,680 Speaker 1: are we talking about? Trying to be reasonable here. Yeah, 360 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:41,280 Speaker 1: generally I recommend within an hour, so keeping bedtimes and 361 00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:44,520 Speaker 1: wake up times within an hour of the usual school time. 362 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:48,840 Speaker 1: But really, for it's important that teenagers aren't, you know, 363 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 1: sleeping until two in the afternoons. So you know, using 364 00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:55,000 Speaker 1: the weekend is a time where maybe they can sleep 365 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:58,760 Speaker 1: in a bit more and get some extra sleep. But 366 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:02,320 Speaker 1: you know, when and kids are really sleep deprived during 367 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:05,199 Speaker 1: the week, it's just not possible to completely make up 368 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 1: for it on the weekends by sleeping in all day. 369 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:11,280 Speaker 1: So really the idea is to try and have that 370 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:14,520 Speaker 1: consistency throughout the week and aiming for a good amount 371 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:17,040 Speaker 1: of sleep every day. How are your kids when it 372 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:19,880 Speaker 1: comes to sleep, Sacey? Did you get good sleepers while 373 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:25,119 Speaker 1: you were so? I think that I got lucky. My 374 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:29,960 Speaker 1: kids are pretty good sleepers. So I have twin boys, 375 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:34,680 Speaker 1: and so we were pretty rigid with their schedule when 376 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:38,520 Speaker 1: they were infants, because otherwise we would have been up 377 00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:42,360 Speaker 1: all night long feeding one or changing one. So we 378 00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:45,360 Speaker 1: were pretty strict. If one woke up to eat, other 379 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:48,159 Speaker 1: one had to wake up to eat, and so I 380 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:51,240 Speaker 1: think that that may have helped them get on a 381 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:54,760 Speaker 1: pretty good schedule. And then, of course with twins, you know, 382 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 1: it's just not possible to console two babies at one 383 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:02,359 Speaker 1: time all the day time, so maybe was a different 384 00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:06,280 Speaker 1: experience than if you just have one baby first. But yeah, 385 00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:09,600 Speaker 1: we were really lucky. All of our kids ended up 386 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:12,639 Speaker 1: sleeping through the night at around four and a half months. 387 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:17,359 Speaker 1: We never did any formal sleep training, but just tried 388 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:23,119 Speaker 1: to really practice those good sleep habits from the start. 389 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:25,480 Speaker 1: And how do you feel about co sleeping because I 390 00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:28,439 Speaker 1: know we have some listeners who are who do that 391 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:32,119 Speaker 1: with their young children. Yeah, so I think sleep is 392 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:36,040 Speaker 1: one of those issues that can be really emotional. People 393 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:39,879 Speaker 1: have a lot of strong feelings about sleep or I 394 00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:44,080 Speaker 1: think you mentioned this already about feeling judged for choosing 395 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:48,239 Speaker 1: certain ways of sleeping. So my feeling is, you know, 396 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:51,440 Speaker 1: no judgment whatever works best for your family, whether that 397 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:55,679 Speaker 1: means doing some sort of sleep training or choosing not to. 398 00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:59,440 Speaker 1: So there's really no right or wrong with co sleeping. 399 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:01,960 Speaker 1: There are definitely, at least some families who choose to 400 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:06,200 Speaker 1: have like a family bed and sleep together with their children. 401 00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:09,879 Speaker 1: They feel like they just all get better sleep that way, 402 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:13,720 Speaker 1: or it may just be temporary when they're in survival mode, 403 00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:16,280 Speaker 1: it might just be the best way to ensure that 404 00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:20,320 Speaker 1: the whole household gets the most sleep. And so, you know, again, 405 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:23,320 Speaker 1: I think that's a personal choice. And really the only 406 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:29,520 Speaker 1: time when we really discourage co sleeping is for newborns 407 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:33,600 Speaker 1: and infants. So for our newborns and really young babies, 408 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:36,119 Speaker 1: we want them to be in a safe sleeping environment. 409 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:39,439 Speaker 1: So rather than having them in the parents' bed, making 410 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:43,200 Speaker 1: sure that they have their own safe sleeping space. So 411 00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:47,040 Speaker 1: there are like co sleepers that go next to the parents' bed, 412 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:49,320 Speaker 1: or like a pack and play that can be right 413 00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 1: next to the parent's bed so you can have easy 414 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:54,840 Speaker 1: access to sue the baby and feed them in the night. 415 00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:57,800 Speaker 1: But it's much safer for them to be in their 416 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:02,280 Speaker 1: own sleeping space than in bed. So, Stacy, you as 417 00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:05,280 Speaker 1: you have a busy professional practice and three young kids. 418 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:10,360 Speaker 1: Our listeners love hearing about people's life logistics. So how 419 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 1: does your day work? You know, do the kids go 420 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:16,159 Speaker 1: to daycare, our school or nanny? And like, how do 421 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:18,919 Speaker 1: you guys make things work in your house. So we 422 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:21,679 Speaker 1: actually have an O pair that lives with us for 423 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:27,719 Speaker 1: child care. So an O pair is international student that 424 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:31,520 Speaker 1: comes to the US for an exchange experience for a 425 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 1: year and they are able to take care of the 426 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:39,639 Speaker 1: kids and live in our homes. So it is really 427 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:43,120 Speaker 1: nice for us. We've gotten really lucky with some amazing 428 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:45,680 Speaker 1: OH pairs that now feel like part of our family, 429 00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:48,680 Speaker 1: and it gives us a lot of flexibility in terms 430 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:52,360 Speaker 1: of childcare and we can kind of shift our hours 431 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:55,760 Speaker 1: depending on our needs in a particular week, and then 432 00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:58,840 Speaker 1: also don't have to really worry about rushing out of 433 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:02,200 Speaker 1: the house and getting everyone dressed and ready in the mornings. 434 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:06,840 Speaker 1: So my husband has a longer commute than I, and 435 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:10,440 Speaker 1: so he usually leaves pretty early in the morning, around 436 00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:13,240 Speaker 1: six point thirty so that he can beat some traffic. 437 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:17,120 Speaker 1: So it's usually that I'm home in the early mornings 438 00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:19,320 Speaker 1: with the kids as they wake up, but are O 439 00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:23,680 Speaker 1: pair is also up and helping to get the kids breakfast, 440 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:26,760 Speaker 1: helping them to get dressed and ready to go to school, 441 00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:29,320 Speaker 1: so that we can all get out of a house 442 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:33,000 Speaker 1: in a reasonable time. What hours do you tend to work, Like, 443 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:37,000 Speaker 1: what would a sleep psychologist hours? Because I imagine, you know, 444 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:39,320 Speaker 1: parents working, parents want to bring their kids. It can't 445 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:41,120 Speaker 1: just all be between nine and five. Do you ever 446 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:44,480 Speaker 1: do later hours or how do you set that up? Yeah, 447 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:48,639 Speaker 1: so my clinic is between eight and five, and so 448 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:52,560 Speaker 1: you know, we always have to laugh. The poor families 449 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:55,080 Speaker 1: who are sleep deprived and have to make it in 450 00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:57,960 Speaker 1: for that eight am appointment. Just doesn't seem fair, but 451 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:01,639 Speaker 1: yeah it is. It is a pretty typical eight to 452 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:06,200 Speaker 1: five position. So I do a sleep clinic one day 453 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:09,640 Speaker 1: a week, and then I also do some sleep research, 454 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:13,679 Speaker 1: so I spend time working on research studies and with 455 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:19,080 Speaker 1: research participants. So my research is on the negative health 456 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:23,200 Speaker 1: effects of core sleep and teenagers, so especially the impact 457 00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:25,680 Speaker 1: of not getting enough or going to bed too late 458 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 1: on things like our weight, diet, insulin sensitivity. What's one 459 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:34,280 Speaker 1: of your favorite findings so far from your projects. Well, 460 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:37,840 Speaker 1: basically that if we are going to bed too late 461 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:41,120 Speaker 1: and not getting enough sleep, it seems that that might 462 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:47,520 Speaker 1: affect our dietary intakes. So we may prefer sweet dessert 463 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:52,240 Speaker 1: type foods and eat more calories than when we get 464 00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:55,359 Speaker 1: a good night of sleep. So just another reason to 465 00:26:55,440 --> 00:27:00,480 Speaker 1: get that good sleep. Anybody who takes call can roberate 466 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:04,600 Speaker 1: that evidence. I mean, I guess there's a mental piece 467 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 1: of it too. But never are my junk food cravings, 468 00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:12,400 Speaker 1: never were they stronger than after those like overnights during residency. 469 00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 1: You feel entitled to everything and you want it. But 470 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:17,639 Speaker 1: I love that, I mean that needs that. You know, 471 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:19,760 Speaker 1: as that gets more and more published, that's something to 472 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:23,360 Speaker 1: you know, pass on to patients. That's a great that's 473 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:26,760 Speaker 1: great research. And so say, say two more questions for 474 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:30,880 Speaker 1: you here. First, how much sleep do you need per day? 475 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:37,960 Speaker 1: So I love sleep and I aim for about eight hours. 476 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:42,000 Speaker 1: So the recommendation for adults is seven hours or more 477 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:45,320 Speaker 1: per night, and I am a person that really does 478 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:49,280 Speaker 1: best with around eight hours of sleep. I am also 479 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:52,840 Speaker 1: definitely a morning person, so my husband and I take 480 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:55,960 Speaker 1: turns going to the gym in the mornings before the 481 00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:59,480 Speaker 1: kids get up. So I often will wake up at 482 00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:03,240 Speaker 1: four fifty to get to the five point fifteen class 483 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:06,000 Speaker 1: at the gym, and I just feel like it starts 484 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:08,040 Speaker 1: my day better if I can get to the gym 485 00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:12,880 Speaker 1: and exercise before getting to work. But because I really 486 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:14,679 Speaker 1: want to get a good night to sleep, I often 487 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:17,280 Speaker 1: end up going to bed at like nine, nine thirty, 488 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:20,320 Speaker 1: and it is well, there is no shame in that. 489 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:22,920 Speaker 1: I definitely do that. Yeah, the most exact same time 490 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:26,680 Speaker 1: people like gets harder though with older kids. I got 491 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:30,480 Speaker 1: to say, you know, because they're we're working, can I 492 00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:32,880 Speaker 1: trust them to go to bed if I go to bed, 493 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:34,960 Speaker 1: because of course I want to get up and use 494 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,240 Speaker 1: my mornings and run or do whatever before the little 495 00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:39,920 Speaker 1: guy wakes up, and he of course goes to bed 496 00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:43,959 Speaker 1: earlier than the older kids. So we're experimenting with that. 497 00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:48,080 Speaker 1: We will report back. It's It's definitely a whole other 498 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:51,040 Speaker 1: life stage that I have not yet experienced, So that 499 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:54,200 Speaker 1: will be interesting when my kids want to stay up later. 500 00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:58,080 Speaker 1: For now, we're still able to get them down for 501 00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:01,120 Speaker 1: an early bedtime because I it's nice to have a 502 00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:04,160 Speaker 1: little bit of adult time to you know, watch some 503 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:06,960 Speaker 1: TV and wind down ourselves after the kids go to bed. 504 00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:12,840 Speaker 1: We'll pencil you in for twenty twenty three. Great on 505 00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:15,520 Speaker 1: how that gets. And we always ask our guests a 506 00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:18,719 Speaker 1: love of the week questions, so things that are you know, 507 00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:21,320 Speaker 1: really working for us right now? We were going to 508 00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:24,120 Speaker 1: do a sleep themed one, So Sarah, what was your 509 00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:30,120 Speaker 1: favorite sleep related Yeah. Mine, Well, this is a perennial favorite, 510 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:33,720 Speaker 1: the Halo sleep sacks, and I use the version with 511 00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:37,080 Speaker 1: the swaddle until the kids are about four months old 512 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:39,080 Speaker 1: or so, and then I just switched to the sacks. 513 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:41,760 Speaker 1: And I don't know if it's I mean, you're not 514 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:45,520 Speaker 1: allowed to have loose blankets and an infant's crib, but 515 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:47,560 Speaker 1: because they're kind of in a bag, I think they 516 00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:50,680 Speaker 1: feel like a little bit more cozy. And it's also 517 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:53,360 Speaker 1: kind of a sleep association that I build with them 518 00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:56,320 Speaker 1: that I think kind of helps them know, yes, genevieve 519 00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:59,480 Speaker 1: to be in that nighttime mode. And I have fond 520 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:02,680 Speaker 1: memories of Cameron would like climb out of his crib 521 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:05,040 Speaker 1: wearing it so like you know, he had a bag 522 00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:07,400 Speaker 1: on his feet, but he still managed that that because 523 00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:12,200 Speaker 1: that's like his style is awesome. The kid can climb 524 00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:15,280 Speaker 1: out of the crib in a sack like that, that's 525 00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:17,120 Speaker 1: you know, it's a whole different ballgame from like a 526 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,160 Speaker 1: kid who's like, I'm content just sitting here, because there 527 00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:21,640 Speaker 1: are kids who are like that, and then there are 528 00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:23,880 Speaker 1: others who are going to be up on your roof, 529 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:27,400 Speaker 1: so you know, not that you've have any experience with 530 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:34,920 Speaker 1: that what soever. Oh, none at all. Yeah, but yeah, sorry, safety. 531 00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:37,520 Speaker 1: I was just gonna say those sleep sacks can be 532 00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:40,840 Speaker 1: really great as an alternative to using loose blankets and 533 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:44,000 Speaker 1: things in the in the crib. And it's nice that 534 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:47,200 Speaker 1: once kids are able to roll over, you're no longer 535 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:50,920 Speaker 1: supposed to swaddle their arms. But they have those sleep 536 00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:53,800 Speaker 1: sacks where you can either kind of swaddle underneath their 537 00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:56,200 Speaker 1: arms so their arms are still free, or just use 538 00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:58,800 Speaker 1: the regular sleep sacks. And we use those until our 539 00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:02,360 Speaker 1: kids were, oh gosh, a lot older, and it does 540 00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:06,200 Speaker 1: it serves us a nice bedtime queue for kids. Yeah, 541 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:09,000 Speaker 1: that's I was gonna say. My love of the week 542 00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:10,880 Speaker 1: was also we had the swattle blanket that looked like 543 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:13,120 Speaker 1: a hippo and it's just like the cutest thing ever 544 00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:16,280 Speaker 1: because your kid like looks like this little hippo in it. 545 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:19,640 Speaker 1: But you know, it doesn't work well once the kids 546 00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:22,920 Speaker 1: won out, which which my kids have never really many 547 00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:24,800 Speaker 1: of them are not that into sleep, which is its 548 00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:27,800 Speaker 1: own separate thing, but some of them are. It's it's 549 00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:32,640 Speaker 1: curious to see the personality differences within a family. The 550 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:35,280 Speaker 1: upside of that being that I you know, know, it's 551 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:37,720 Speaker 1: who they are. It's not that I did anything different, 552 00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:41,200 Speaker 1: so you know, but what about you, Stacy, what what 553 00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:43,560 Speaker 1: do you have any particular love of the week, something 554 00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:46,520 Speaker 1: that's really you know, rocking your boat right now. Well, 555 00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:51,840 Speaker 1: for sleep, I really love white noise machines. So we 556 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:55,720 Speaker 1: have always had white noise machines in our kids bedrooms 557 00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:58,760 Speaker 1: from the time they were newborns. And again it's another 558 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:03,120 Speaker 1: positive sleep cue. And now if we forget to turn 559 00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:05,360 Speaker 1: on the white noise machine, my kids will tell us 560 00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:08,480 Speaker 1: you forgot we need to have this on. But it's 561 00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:12,920 Speaker 1: really soothing and can just block out any extra noise 562 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:16,600 Speaker 1: so that they aren't waking up as much. And I 563 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:19,520 Speaker 1: also enjoy the white noise now I really need it 564 00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:23,000 Speaker 1: to sleep myself, So yeah, I would say I would 565 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:27,080 Speaker 1: also throw a shout out for Max earplugs. For whatever reason, 566 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:29,440 Speaker 1: that's the brand that I wound up originally wearing. And 567 00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:35,480 Speaker 1: I realized that my lovely boyfriend now husband possibly snores. 568 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:39,520 Speaker 1: It is his own separate sleep issue. But anyway, well, 569 00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:42,880 Speaker 1: thank you so much Dacy for coming on to talk 570 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:46,560 Speaker 1: about sleep. Can our Is there someplace our listeners? Can 571 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:49,480 Speaker 1: you know any resources you direct our listeners to learn 572 00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:52,320 Speaker 1: more about kids in sleep. Yes, so there are a 573 00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:58,960 Speaker 1: couple great websites. One is babysleep dot com and they 574 00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:05,200 Speaker 1: have articles and videos about sleep issues arranging from newborns 575 00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:08,200 Speaker 1: all the way to three years old, and so that's 576 00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:12,160 Speaker 1: a really helpful resource. You can also find sleep centers 577 00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:17,200 Speaker 1: in your area. And then Behavioral sleep dot org is 578 00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:21,520 Speaker 1: the Society of Behavioral Sleep Medicine and they have a 579 00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:26,080 Speaker 1: searchable database of sleep specialists. So if families are feeling 580 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:28,720 Speaker 1: like they would really like to talk to a professional 581 00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:31,120 Speaker 1: and have more of a one on one to get 582 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:33,720 Speaker 1: some sleep tips, that's a good way to find somebody 583 00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:36,760 Speaker 1: that's local to their area. Wonderful. Thank you so much 584 00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:39,400 Speaker 1: for sharing your expertise with us. We really appreciate it. 585 00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:43,200 Speaker 1: Thanks for having me. This was fun. So today's listener 586 00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:46,360 Speaker 1: question is from somebody who says she loves our podcast, 587 00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:48,320 Speaker 1: has been reading our blogs for years, and she wants 588 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:50,160 Speaker 1: she has a bit of a difficult situation that she 589 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:52,160 Speaker 1: wants our thoughts on trying to have the best of 590 00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:55,600 Speaker 1: both worlds. So she works for the largest employer in 591 00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:57,640 Speaker 1: her region and she has been at her current job 592 00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:00,680 Speaker 1: for several years and has been constantly telling herself that 593 00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:03,440 Speaker 1: her job is going to get better, but it hasn't. 594 00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:08,160 Speaker 1: Her employer is a mess with various scandals, reorganizations, poor outcomes, 595 00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:11,280 Speaker 1: et cetera. In her role, she feels that she isn't 596 00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:14,120 Speaker 1: being used for her particular skill set. She doesn't have 597 00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:16,600 Speaker 1: enough work to keep her busy. There's been a lot 598 00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:19,560 Speaker 1: of leadership changes, so she doesn't have champions sort of 599 00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:21,359 Speaker 1: in the higher levels, since the many of the people 600 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:24,279 Speaker 1: she worked for is gone. So unsurprisingly, morale not that 601 00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:27,240 Speaker 1: great at work, so she's not feeling all that happy 602 00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:29,840 Speaker 1: about it. Of Course, when she actually has work related 603 00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:31,600 Speaker 1: to what she was hired to do, she loves it, 604 00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:34,279 Speaker 1: but that is rarely the case since in those days, 605 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:36,960 Speaker 1: she's not that happy about her job. She says, just 606 00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:40,080 Speaker 1: for reference, In her previous position, she was supervising a 607 00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:43,880 Speaker 1: rather large team seeing overseeing multimillion dollar projects. In this 608 00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:48,240 Speaker 1: current role, she isn't supervising anyone. Her projects are much smaller. However, 609 00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:51,280 Speaker 1: the big butt My job works great for my family 610 00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:54,279 Speaker 1: and personal life. The job pays very well, especially given 611 00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:57,600 Speaker 1: how little work I have. She's got great benefits, lots 612 00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:00,719 Speaker 1: of vacation at sick time. She's also part of her 613 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:04,560 Speaker 1: state retirement system, which is a particular issue because she's 614 00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:07,680 Speaker 1: been with various employers that would have into this state 615 00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:10,520 Speaker 1: retirement system for seventeen years, and so if she stays 616 00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:12,560 Speaker 1: for another thirteen years, she could retire her with thirty 617 00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:14,799 Speaker 1: years of service at fifty five. You'll get a very 618 00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:17,440 Speaker 1: good pension with that, She says. She also has significant 619 00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:19,520 Speaker 1: flexibility with her hours, which allows her to pick up 620 00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:22,359 Speaker 1: her elementary school kids from school in a ten school event. 621 00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:25,279 Speaker 1: So the question, do I stay at my current job 622 00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:27,279 Speaker 1: because it works well for my family and has great 623 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:30,200 Speaker 1: pay and benefits knowing I can retire young, or is 624 00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:32,040 Speaker 1: it time for me to look for a new job. 625 00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:35,080 Speaker 1: She's worried that she would not find another job in 626 00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:36,799 Speaker 1: her region that pays as well or has as good 627 00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:39,239 Speaker 1: of benefits. And that's kind of an issue because they 628 00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:41,120 Speaker 1: move to that area to be close to their families, 629 00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:44,440 Speaker 1: and so they really don't want to move out of 630 00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:47,160 Speaker 1: it because they're around a lot of extended family there. 631 00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:49,640 Speaker 1: So should she stay in her current job, and if so, 632 00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:52,080 Speaker 1: much strategy should she employ to make her work days 633 00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:54,359 Speaker 1: more enjoyable and tolerable or should she try to find 634 00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:56,360 Speaker 1: something else? So how does she have the best of 635 00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:59,160 Speaker 1: both worlds? All right, Sarah, what's your take? Yeah, so 636 00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:01,000 Speaker 1: we thought this would be a fun one for Laura 637 00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:03,120 Speaker 1: and I. Actually not a lot of times, you know, 638 00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:06,680 Speaker 1: behind the scenes, we share our notes prior to these episodes. 639 00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:08,960 Speaker 1: But I thought i'd be interesting to get like totally 640 00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:11,200 Speaker 1: two independent takes. And actually, I'm not sure what Laura's 641 00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:14,319 Speaker 1: gonna say, perhaps especially because I really debated about what 642 00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:17,240 Speaker 1: I thought about this, it's a tough question. My first 643 00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:21,839 Speaker 1: question is is this job really secure? Because you know, 644 00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:24,080 Speaker 1: she talks about staying there for thirteen years, but then 645 00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:26,239 Speaker 1: she also talks about rounds and rounds of layoffs and 646 00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:30,359 Speaker 1: all this kind of tumultuous stuff and how she's had 647 00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:32,319 Speaker 1: less and less work, which to me could be a 648 00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:36,600 Speaker 1: red flag that maybe maybe thirteen more years isn't even 649 00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:39,000 Speaker 1: gonna be a potential option. So I guess I would 650 00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:41,960 Speaker 1: really take a hard look at is that an issue? Now? 651 00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:44,080 Speaker 1: The way this is written makes me feel like she 652 00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:47,120 Speaker 1: does feel confident, like maybe she does something very specific 653 00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:49,400 Speaker 1: that it would be incredibly hard to replace, and that 654 00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:51,759 Speaker 1: is very pivotal for this company, even though she's doing 655 00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:54,360 Speaker 1: it in a smaller way than she previously was, So 656 00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:58,720 Speaker 1: let's on the assumption that the job is secure. I 657 00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:01,240 Speaker 1: kind of think there's a lot of positives to this job, 658 00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:04,319 Speaker 1: and I'm wondering if there's any way again to have 659 00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:06,560 Speaker 1: a little bit of best of both worlds, keep doing 660 00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:08,560 Speaker 1: her sort of minimal stuff that she needs to do 661 00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:11,440 Speaker 1: and meet with people and see if she can kind 662 00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:13,600 Speaker 1: of take the Google approach of having eighty percent be 663 00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:17,360 Speaker 1: her traditional job responsibilities in twenty percent being like, you know, 664 00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:21,359 Speaker 1: interesting projects that might not go anywhere but fascinate her. 665 00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:23,960 Speaker 1: Because it does sound like she's had she has this, 666 00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:26,880 Speaker 1: certainly has the time to do that, and it certainly 667 00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:31,440 Speaker 1: seems like from a you know, retirement and practicality and 668 00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:33,399 Speaker 1: like location, which I think is a really big part 669 00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:36,640 Speaker 1: and kind of family situation standpoint, she's in kind of 670 00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:39,080 Speaker 1: a sweet spot and I'm not sure if she's going 671 00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:42,040 Speaker 1: to be able to check all those boxes necessarily doing 672 00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:45,160 Speaker 1: something else. So if she does feel that her position 673 00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:48,440 Speaker 1: is secure, I think my vote would be to really 674 00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:50,560 Speaker 1: see what she can do with the position she has 675 00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:52,920 Speaker 1: to make it more favorable, and then you know, our 676 00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:55,839 Speaker 1: We've mentioned this strategy before, but you know, what would 677 00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:57,880 Speaker 1: her dream week look like at the job, can she 678 00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:00,440 Speaker 1: get the stuff that she's supposed to do it's not 679 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:02,200 Speaker 1: that exciting done in two and a half days, And 680 00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:05,120 Speaker 1: can she think of something that she could do in 681 00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:07,160 Speaker 1: those other two and a half that you know, might 682 00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:09,839 Speaker 1: be maybe she could like learn a new skill, learn 683 00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:11,800 Speaker 1: a new programming language if she's in tech. I'm not 684 00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:15,600 Speaker 1: exactly sure what she does to find something to make 685 00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:18,719 Speaker 1: it more fun. Yeah, so that's that's my take. I'm 686 00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:21,400 Speaker 1: so interested to hear yours. Yeah, learn a language, or 687 00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:23,960 Speaker 1: you know, write a novel. I don't know. If you 688 00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:26,440 Speaker 1: have a job that's paying you for five days and 689 00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:29,160 Speaker 1: you're really only working like three, you know, if you 690 00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:30,680 Speaker 1: could get away with it, I don't know, it could 691 00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:33,160 Speaker 1: be an interesting thing. I also was wondering if it 692 00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:35,880 Speaker 1: was as secure as she thinks it is. I may 693 00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:37,759 Speaker 1: have done a little bit of sleuth work to figure 694 00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:40,960 Speaker 1: out I think probably is secure based on what it 695 00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:45,360 Speaker 1: is that said. I would never want to say, like, 696 00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:47,799 Speaker 1: definitely say for thirteen more years and something you're not 697 00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:50,640 Speaker 1: liking just to get your pension, because there is the 698 00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:54,120 Speaker 1: way of madness when the rules change, right and you 699 00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:58,080 Speaker 1: never know. It may be that her pension is in 700 00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:00,640 Speaker 1: retirement system is absolutely secure. A lot of people have 701 00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:02,759 Speaker 1: found out that it isn't. And then you'd be really 702 00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:05,200 Speaker 1: better if you stuck with something for thirteen years and 703 00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:06,759 Speaker 1: then learn that actually they're not going to let you 704 00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:08,960 Speaker 1: retire fifty five anymore. You know, now it's fifty eight, 705 00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:13,239 Speaker 1: or now it's sixty two or something. I guess, you know. 706 00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:15,279 Speaker 1: The key thing for me is not viewing this as 707 00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:17,960 Speaker 1: sort of only two choices, like stay in a job 708 00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:20,760 Speaker 1: you hate because of the good benefits, or find something 709 00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:23,680 Speaker 1: that's not going to pay well or would require moving 710 00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:26,719 Speaker 1: or you know, would be a lot more hours. These 711 00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:30,640 Speaker 1: are not You don't one hundred percent know that you 712 00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:32,799 Speaker 1: will never find another job that pays as well and 713 00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:34,360 Speaker 1: would be in your location, like unless you are the 714 00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:37,080 Speaker 1: absolute top paid person in your city. Like that's somebody 715 00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:39,919 Speaker 1: has a job that pays more than yours. Maybe it's 716 00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:41,880 Speaker 1: not something you are qualified for, but maybe there are 717 00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:43,279 Speaker 1: other things you don't know about, so you know you 718 00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:47,399 Speaker 1: can look around. You can do this while you're still employed, right, 719 00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:49,239 Speaker 1: you are always better off for getting a new job 720 00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:51,799 Speaker 1: while you're still employed somewhere, so you don't have to 721 00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:54,840 Speaker 1: do anything. But you can also start putting out lots 722 00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:57,640 Speaker 1: of sort of things that can bring opportunities to you. 723 00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:00,880 Speaker 1: So lots of networking, lots of taking little projects and 724 00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:03,759 Speaker 1: as you said your twenty percent time, one thought I 725 00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:05,640 Speaker 1: had is that she should really start gunning for a 726 00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:09,000 Speaker 1: promotion within this organization. Like she's got to identified a 727 00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:11,640 Speaker 1: lot of things that are problematic about the organization. Maybe 728 00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:13,680 Speaker 1: she could change them, right, maybe she could fix them. 729 00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:17,319 Speaker 1: So if she was able to, you know, make a 730 00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:19,960 Speaker 1: good case for getting more responsibility within the job, she 731 00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:23,120 Speaker 1: could potentially change the whole department that she's working in 732 00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:25,239 Speaker 1: and or you know, find a different part department within 733 00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:28,640 Speaker 1: that large organization that she could make a lateral move 734 00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:31,279 Speaker 1: to somewhere else if it's a particular problem with the 735 00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:34,360 Speaker 1: department she's in. You know, there's lots of things that 736 00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:36,319 Speaker 1: could happen too. I mean, she might find a job 737 00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:40,040 Speaker 1: with an employer that's somewhere else, but that they might 738 00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:42,319 Speaker 1: be open to her working remotely and just coming to 739 00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:44,640 Speaker 1: headquarters maybe one week of the month, and she might 740 00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:47,040 Speaker 1: be decided that that was a trade off she was 741 00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:49,040 Speaker 1: willing to make right, that she could work from her 742 00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:51,759 Speaker 1: location where she's by extended family for three weeks a 743 00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:55,520 Speaker 1: month and then one week a month fly to this employer. 744 00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:57,759 Speaker 1: In other places, maybe that would be something she could do. 745 00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:00,399 Speaker 1: But I think the key thing is is, yeah, not 746 00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:03,279 Speaker 1: not viewing this as just two choices of job I 747 00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:06,760 Speaker 1: hate that pays well or job I like that won't, 748 00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:11,920 Speaker 1: because probably there are other possibilities and it's about trying 749 00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:15,200 Speaker 1: to say those. Ooh, I really like that, especially the 750 00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:19,440 Speaker 1: you know, casually looking around without making any grand plans, 751 00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:21,480 Speaker 1: because you're right, I think so often we put ourselves 752 00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:23,600 Speaker 1: in this place where and we've talked about this before. 753 00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:25,360 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I'm in an aha moment, and I 754 00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:27,600 Speaker 1: have to do something rash and like a lot of times, 755 00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:30,680 Speaker 1: you don't. You can do something without it being something 756 00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:34,279 Speaker 1: that you know takes away potential options, whether that be 757 00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:37,200 Speaker 1: staying where you are, crafting what you're doing. So yeah, 758 00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:39,400 Speaker 1: I like that, And I mean, certainly, if she's considering 759 00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:43,440 Speaker 1: putting thirteen more years into this employer, like give yourself 760 00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:45,759 Speaker 1: a one or two year horizon to see what else 761 00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:47,799 Speaker 1: is out there and what other skills you know might 762 00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:49,879 Speaker 1: be important for you to have, or you know, other 763 00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:52,680 Speaker 1: employers there or elsewhere, or maybe if you wanted to 764 00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:54,640 Speaker 1: do something entrepreneurial. I mean, I know that would be 765 00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:58,279 Speaker 1: far more risky, but it just if you start thinking 766 00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:00,960 Speaker 1: about all these different options, and I think the situation 767 00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:03,080 Speaker 1: will start to look a lot better, particularly if you 768 00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:06,279 Speaker 1: give yourself a one or two year time horizon and 769 00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:08,640 Speaker 1: not like I need to do something tomorrow. And what 770 00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:12,480 Speaker 1: a great question. Guys, keep these specific ones coming. I 771 00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:15,000 Speaker 1: think they're really fun to talk about, really fun to 772 00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:18,080 Speaker 1: you know, put ourselves in these scenarios. And sometimes it's 773 00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:21,799 Speaker 1: just helpful to hear others, you know, my very unprofessional 774 00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:25,759 Speaker 1: opinion in another field. But and Laura's you know, she's 775 00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:28,280 Speaker 1: gotten a lot of details about a lot of people's 776 00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:31,120 Speaker 1: work lives. So we hope you appreciate our take. But 777 00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:33,960 Speaker 1: we also we really, we really like thinking through these, 778 00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:35,919 Speaker 1: so thank you. Yeah. All right, so this has been 779 00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:39,480 Speaker 1: best of both worlds. We've mostly been talking sleep today 780 00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:42,399 Speaker 1: with Stacy Simon, our guest, and then also looking at 781 00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:44,839 Speaker 1: a question from a listener who is trying to figure 782 00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:46,759 Speaker 1: out whether to stay in her job or not. This. 783 00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:49,719 Speaker 1: We will be back next week with more making work 784 00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:55,600 Speaker 1: and life fit together, so please tune in. Thanks for listening. 785 00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:58,319 Speaker 1: You can find me Sarah at the shoe box dot 786 00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:02,480 Speaker 1: com or at the Underscore shoe Box on Instagram, and 787 00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:06,720 Speaker 1: you can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. 788 00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:09,960 Speaker 1: This has been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please 789 00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:12,600 Speaker 1: join us next time for more on making work and 790 00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:13,840 Speaker 1: life work together.