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Speaker 1: Bloomberg, Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. Jane Street is one

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Speaker 1: of Wall Street's most profitable trading firms. You've maybe heard

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Speaker 1: the name, but unless you're a Wall Street insider, you

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Speaker 1: might not know who they are or what exactly they do.

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Speaker 2: They are the middleman in many ways.

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Speaker 1: Catherine Doherty is a finance reporter for Bloomberg.

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Speaker 3: Even though they are such a powerful player in finance,

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Speaker 3: you wouldn't really know that you are interacting with them

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Speaker 3: in the market.

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Speaker 1: If you've ever bought stock on robin Hood or made

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Speaker 1: an investment with your retirement fund, chances are Jane Street

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Speaker 1: or a firm like it helped process that trade behind

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Speaker 1: the scenes. Every day, they facilitate billions of transactions between

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Speaker 1: buyers and sellers across markets.

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Speaker 3: Jane Street is connected to all of the pipes, all

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Speaker 3: of the plumbing of the market.

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Speaker 1: And that means Jane Street makes a lot of money

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Speaker 1: from trades. In twenty twenty four, its revenue was twenty

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Speaker 1: point five billion dollars, almost double what it brought in

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Speaker 1: in twenty twenty three. But that growth has also come

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Speaker 1: with new scrutiny. Earlier this month, India's main financial regulator

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Speaker 1: accused the firm of market manipulation. India's market regulator is

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Speaker 1: barring Jane Street from access to its local securities market.

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Speaker 1: It may actually be the biggest fine if it matializes ever,

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Speaker 1: you know, for such kind of market manipulation.

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Speaker 2: Alleged market manipulation.

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Speaker 1: Jane Street is called the regulator's conclusions fundamentally mistaken and

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Speaker 1: has said it will assess its legal options. But Catherine

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Speaker 1: says the rest of the industry is watching to see

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Speaker 1: whether this investigation sets off a reckoning that could change

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Speaker 1: the way firms like Jane Street operate around the world

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Speaker 1: and just how fast they might grow. I'm Sarah Holder,

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Speaker 1: and this is the big take from Bloomberg News Today.

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Speaker 1: On the show, we take a look at one of

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Speaker 1: Wall Street's most secretive firms, how Jane Street's trading got

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Speaker 1: it in hot water, and what that could mean for

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Speaker 1: regulation in a corner of the industry that not many

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Speaker 1: people pay attention to. Jane Street has a reputation as

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Speaker 1: a firm with highly compensated, high performing talent.

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Speaker 2: The people at Jane.

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Speaker 3: Street are often described as mathematical.

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Speaker 2: A lot of them play.

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Speaker 3: Poker, They have puzzles in their offices. They're problem solvers

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Speaker 3: in the most advanced way.

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Speaker 1: And those puzzle playing problem solvers spend their days helping

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Speaker 1: institutions and other investors make trades.

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Speaker 2: Essentially their matching a buyer and a seller. You think

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Speaker 2: that when you place an.

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Speaker 1: Order, it's as if you go to the grocery store.

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Speaker 2: And you're buying something.

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Speaker 3: Well, in the markets, there needs to be someone that

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Speaker 3: actually helps make that match happen.

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Speaker 2: Bayne Street is that firm.

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Speaker 1: They're the middleman for all sorts of transactions. If you

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Speaker 1: buy stock in a company through a trading app, or

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Speaker 1: if you ask a broker to invest your money, Jane

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Speaker 1: Street might be the firm behind the curtain helping move

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Speaker 1: that money around. Or you might be interacting with one

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Speaker 1: of its competitors.

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Speaker 3: And you don't know if it was Jane Street or

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Speaker 3: if it was Citadel Securities or Susquehanna. There's so many

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Speaker 3: of these market making firms, and frankly, until the Meme

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Speaker 3: stock craze, retail traders didn't seem to care, or at

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Speaker 3: least there wasn't as much discussion.

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Speaker 1: Jane Street is a private company and not a bank.

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Speaker 1: While it has to abide by market rules, it isn't

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Speaker 1: subject to the same degree of regulation that big banks

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Speaker 1: such as JP Morgan and Goldman Sachs have faced since

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Speaker 1: the two thousand and eight financial crisis. Those other financial

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Speaker 1: institutions are under pressure to avoid risk taking, and that

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Speaker 1: gives Jane Street an edge.

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Speaker 3: They can invest in their technology in the way that

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Speaker 3: banks can't because banks have to.

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Speaker 2: Be a little bit more conservative with their own money.

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Speaker 3: And the secret sauce is that they're able to code

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Speaker 3: in the special language as well.

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Speaker 2: And what that means is it.

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Speaker 3: Is hard for other firms to copy exactly what Jane

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Speaker 3: Street is doing, and they're able to take really big

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Speaker 3: bets in the market. They're not in the game to

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Speaker 3: necessarily invest in a company because they think that the

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Speaker 3: company's earnings are going to increase over time, or they're

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Speaker 3: not looking to invest in even a sector because they

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Speaker 3: believe in that sector. Their primary goal is to just

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Speaker 3: be greasing the pipes of the market.

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Speaker 1: They're not just using elbow grease. They're using powerful technology

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Speaker 1: to guide their traits. If they can anticipate how markets

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Speaker 1: are moving from one second to the next, they can

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Speaker 1: offer the right prices and profit.

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Speaker 3: So they've developed algorithms. They're using data and they're digesting

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Speaker 3: that data to make inferences. They're guessing where the market's.

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Speaker 2: Going to be moving.

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Speaker 3: So if they, for example, see a share, maybe.

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Speaker 2: It's a share of Apple, and there's a buyer.

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Speaker 3: In the market that is looking to buy at a

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Speaker 3: certain price, and there's a seller in the market, their

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Speaker 3: algorithm is telling them to match at a certain time

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Speaker 3: at a certain price, and it is in milliseconds, So

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Speaker 3: this is very very fast. And they're doing this with

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Speaker 3: so many shares that the way that they make money

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Speaker 3: is they're taking a tiny profit the difference between where

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Speaker 3: the share is sold and where the share is bought,

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Speaker 3: and they're pocketing that. And it might be pennies. You

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Speaker 3: might think, oh, this company that makes twenty billion dollars

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Speaker 3: in a year, how did they do that? It adds

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Speaker 3: up over time, and because they're using their algorithms, their technology,

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Speaker 3: their people, over time, they make billions of dollars.

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Speaker 1: So it's a volume game and it's a speed game. Yes,

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Speaker 1: a volume and speed game known as high frequency trading. Still,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot about the firm we don't know, and

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Speaker 1: that sense of secrecy is deeply embedded in the company's culture,

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Speaker 1: its offices, even hung a poster, but the famous World

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Speaker 1: War Two slogan loose lips sink ships.

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Speaker 3: You don't see a lot of Jane Street executives in

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Speaker 3: the public eye. They're not ever really on TV or

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Speaker 3: even in really niche financial conferences if you go on LinkedIn.

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Speaker 2: At one time.

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Speaker 3: Profiles were discouraged, and now if you do see a profile,

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Speaker 3: there's often not a title attached to a person's name,

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Speaker 3: and that is reflective of how this firm operates in

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Speaker 3: terms of its culture and the times that it has

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Speaker 3: been brought into the public eye.

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Speaker 2: It's probably something they would not want.

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Speaker 1: One of those moments came with the collapse of FTX,

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Speaker 1: the multi billion dollar crypto company that had been founded

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Speaker 1: by a former Jane Street employee, Sam Bankman freed.

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Speaker 3: When FTX collapsed, there was a lot of discussion about

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Speaker 3: the risk taking that Sam's firm took and some comparisons

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Speaker 3: to Jane Street.

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Speaker 1: But Jane Street hasn't been the target of any major

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Speaker 1: regulatory investigations itself until now. Earlier this month, India's regulator,

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Speaker 1: the Securities in Exchange Board or SEBI, started investigating the

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Speaker 1: firm for market manipulation. Why did regulators start circling. Do

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Speaker 1: we know what made them want to investigate Jane Street

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Speaker 1: in India.

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Speaker 3: So it all stems back to a lawsuit the firm

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Speaker 3: had with former employees that went to the hedge fund

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Speaker 3: Millennium and they were suing these former employees for We

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Speaker 3: didn't know it at the time, but it ended up

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Speaker 3: being identified as an options trading strategy. They identified what

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Speaker 3: they didn't want to lose as proprietary information. Through this case,

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Speaker 3: the number the profit that they were making in options

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Speaker 3: specifically and in India came out. It was such a

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Speaker 3: large number that the regulators in India said, hold on

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Speaker 3: a second.

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Speaker 2: We have to look into this.

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Speaker 1: We get into what those regulators found and what it

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Speaker 1: could mean for the way firms like Jane Street operate

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Speaker 1: around the world. After the break in the past few years,

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Speaker 1: Street and other market making firms saw an opportunity to

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Speaker 1: expand their presence in Indian markets. Over the past five years,

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Speaker 1: India's options market has boomed along with the number of

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Speaker 1: retail traders. That growth has also led to more volatility

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Speaker 1: and a higher potential for profit, and for Jane Street,

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Speaker 1: that paid off. The firm made more than four billion

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Speaker 1: dollars in India in just over two years. Meanwhile, regulators

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Speaker 1: in India said nine out of ten individual traders who

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Speaker 1: bet on futures and options lost a significant amount of

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Speaker 1: money doing so, and that's part of what got regulators

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Speaker 1: looking at how these firms were operating. Bloomberg's Catherine Doherty

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Speaker 1: walked me through what happened.

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Speaker 3: You have the options market and you have the equity market.

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Speaker 3: They're directly correlated.

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Speaker 1: The equities market is where you buy or sell stocks.

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Speaker 1: The options market is where you buy the option to

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Speaker 1: buy or sell stocks at a certain price at a

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Speaker 1: future date. The key is betting on which direction the

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Speaker 1: stock price might go, something that's influenced by activity in

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Speaker 1: the equities market.

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Speaker 3: The regulator in India, the Security Is and Exchange Board,

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Speaker 3: is accusing the firm of manipulating the market, using its

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Speaker 3: money to place such large bets on one market that

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Speaker 3: it moves the other market in a way that the

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Speaker 3: firm knows they're going to profit from it. The firm

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Speaker 3: has said that this is the term arbitrage. Arbitrage is

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Speaker 3: just when you spot a dislocation or you can see

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Speaker 3: that the market is inefficient in a way that you

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Speaker 3: can profit from that and you can. Essentially, what the

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Speaker 3: firm would argue is we were actually making the marketplace better,

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Speaker 3: we were making it more efficient. So yes, it might

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Speaker 3: have moved, but it was moving in some ways closer

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Speaker 3: to where it should.

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Speaker 1: Basically, the regulator is accusing Jane Street of playing both

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Speaker 1: sides of these markets and alleging that the firm was

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Speaker 1: putting so much much money on one market that i

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Speaker 1: was impacting the other. The regulator ordered the seizure of

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Speaker 1: about five hundred and seventy million dollars in profits from

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Speaker 1: the firm, which it claims were unlawful gains. It also

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Speaker 1: temporarily banmed Jane Street from trading in the Indian securities

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Speaker 1: market while it conducts its investigation. I mean, the Indian

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Speaker 1: options market is pretty unique. What could this order mean

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Speaker 1: for Jane Streets or other similar market making firms operations

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Speaker 1: elsewhere around the world.

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Speaker 3: First and foremost, there's nothing stopping a regulator from looking

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Speaker 3: into a firm that they regulate.

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Speaker 2: That's their job. So anytime a firm.

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Speaker 3: Is in the news like Jane Street, there's increased scrutiny.

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Speaker 1: Doesn't mean that other regulators from other countries where Jane

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Speaker 1: Street operates might be wanting to turn over more stones.

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Speaker 2: Yes.

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Speaker 3: I talked to someone that said, regulators don't want to

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Speaker 3: be asleep at the wheel. So even if it's just precautionary,

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Speaker 3: it's very likely that a regulator might take a second

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Speaker 3: look at what they have access to, and if they

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Speaker 3: don't have access or they have more questions, they might

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Speaker 3: ask Jane Street to answer those questions just so they

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Speaker 3: have some reassurance that there's nothing that they see as

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Speaker 3: potentially nefarious or manipulative. And it goes the same for

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Speaker 3: a peer of James. I've talked to other market participants

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Speaker 3: that would be competitors to Jane, other market makers, and

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Speaker 3: one firm said that right after this order came out,

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Speaker 3: they were digging through the order and they also had

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Speaker 3: an internal meeting amongst themselves to say, hey, are we

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Speaker 3: doing anything that might not be exactly the same as

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Speaker 3: what Jane Street was doing, but let's look through our

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Speaker 3: trading strategies to make sure there's nothing that comes across

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Speaker 3: as questionable or that could be brought up by regulators

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Speaker 3: as nefarious. And this person was quick to say, like,

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Speaker 3: we didn't come to that conclusion, but you have to

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Speaker 3: be proactive.

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Speaker 1: Jane Street has set aside nearly five hundred and seventy

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Speaker 1: million dollars in an escrow account to comply with SEBI's

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Speaker 1: order while it investigates. A person familiar with the matter

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Speaker 1: told Bloomberg that the firm doesn't plan to immediately return

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Speaker 1: to India's options market for now. Market watchers will wait

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Speaker 1: to see what the regulator's investigation turns up and whether

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Speaker 1: Jane Street decides to file an appeal. What could this

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Speaker 1: scrutiny of Jane Street mean for the entire high frequency

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Speaker 1: trading market making industry.

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Speaker 3: It's a really important question, and it depends who you

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Speaker 3: ask people in the industry. Even when I asked that

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Speaker 3: question just about Jane Street's future, I had a quick

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Speaker 3: answer from someone that said, they're so.

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Speaker 2: Large and they're so.

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Speaker 3: Good at what they do that this won't impact the

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Speaker 3: amount of trading that they're still able to facilitate, and

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Speaker 3: that they're just going to keep doing what they do

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Speaker 3: because they have such an important role across global markets.

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Speaker 1: This is the Big Take from Bloomberg News. I'm Sarah Holder.

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Speaker 1: To get more from the Big Take and unlimited access

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Speaker 1: to all of Bloomberg dot com, subscribe today at bloomberg

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Speaker 1: dot com slash podcast offer. If you liked this episode,

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Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. We'll be back tomorrow