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Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom never told you from how stuppards

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Speaker 1: dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristin

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Speaker 1: and I'm Caroline, and we are coming at you in

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Speaker 1: the midst of March madness, even though it's April. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: basketball madness. Yeah. N C Double A Final four is

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Speaker 1: about to happen here in the men's tournament at least

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Speaker 1: is happening in Atlanta, right, it's best to bring something

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Speaker 1: like seventy million dollars worth of revenue to the city,

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Speaker 1: and thank you, and two hundred million people whomart is

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Speaker 1: going to be a little cramped, Yeah, and the streets. Ah,

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Speaker 1: And for this podcast, we're gonna gripe about traffic in Atlanta,

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Speaker 1: just kidding. We're gonna talk about basketball, but we're not

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Speaker 1: talking about the players. We're talking about the coaches because

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Speaker 1: in honor of the n C Double A basque a

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Speaker 1: ball tournament, we thought it would be worthwhile looking at

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Speaker 1: women's basketball coaches, which might sound like a narrow topic,

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Speaker 1: but there is a lot in here to discuss. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, there just aren't as many as perhaps there

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Speaker 1: should be. And something we'll get into is that. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so you've got the men's men's basketball, it's all coached

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Speaker 1: by men. Yeah. And you've got the women's basketball and

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Speaker 1: it's coached by some women, but a lot of men too,

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Speaker 1: but a lot of men. Yeah. We're gonna get into

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Speaker 1: how Title nine actually corresponded with fewer women coaching female

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Speaker 1: basketball teams and other factors at play. Huh pun in

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Speaker 1: all of this, But first, let's talk about the winning

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Speaker 1: ist basketball coach in the n C double A Pat Summit. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Pat Summit was actually a basketball player at University of

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Speaker 1: Tennessee Martin when Title nine was introduced, so she was

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Speaker 1: kind of in the thick of it. She's now the

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Speaker 1: head coach emeritus of Tennessee women's basketball team. Thirty eight

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Speaker 1: years as a head coach, and she stepped down because

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Speaker 1: she made the very sad announcement that she has Alzheimer's. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and she's coming out with a new memoir. I believe

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Speaker 1: that the title is Summit Up and her story is

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Speaker 1: pretty incredible. Like you said, Caroline, she was coming up

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Speaker 1: when Title nine was introduced, and before that, she talks

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Speaker 1: about how the women's athletic budget at you T Martin

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Speaker 1: when she got there was about five hundred dollars to

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Speaker 1: be distributed among volleyball, basketball, and tennis, and after the

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Speaker 1: passage of Title nine in nineteen two, those budgets increased.

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Speaker 1: But it wasn't exactly smooth sailing, as we'll talk about

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Speaker 1: in more detail, but for a little more about Pat's summit.

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Speaker 1: She ended up playing in the first women's Olympic team

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Speaker 1: to play basketball, and a little bit more though about Summit. Uh,

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Speaker 1: some highlights from her career were not only did she

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Speaker 1: you know, play with you team Martin, but she also

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Speaker 1: played in the nineteen seventy six Summer Olympic Games in

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Speaker 1: Montreal because for the first time they had a women's

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Speaker 1: basketball team and Summits team brought home the silver. And

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Speaker 1: then then she went on to coach the team in

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Speaker 1: the nineteen eighty four Olympics in Los Angeles. Yeah, she

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Speaker 1: has a really interesting perspective as far as you know,

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Speaker 1: having been a coach all this time, but also coming

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Speaker 1: up during the whole Title nine passage and everything. In

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Speaker 1: her new book, she says that three events in nineteen

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Speaker 1: seventy two changed everything, and that includes that a group

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Speaker 1: of dedicated women administrators formed the Association of Intercollegiate Athletics

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Speaker 1: for women, because she says the n C Double A

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Speaker 1: didn't yet care enough about females to bother with us.

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Speaker 1: She also says that it was very important the announcement

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Speaker 1: that women's basketball would be an Olympic sport for the

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Speaker 1: first time at the at those nineteen seventy six Summerlympics,

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Speaker 1: and of course the passing of Title nine. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: she talks about how those developments made winning available to women.

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Speaker 1: For instance, with that establishment, Caroline that you mentioned of

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Speaker 1: the Association of Intercollegiate Athletics for Women. The title is

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Speaker 1: a bit of a mouthful. They organized the first championship

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Speaker 1: for women's basketball teams, which was a really important stepping

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Speaker 1: stone to legitimize the sport for women. Also made competition

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Speaker 1: more socially acceptable with Title nine, and it allowed women

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Speaker 1: to play a full court basketball game. Well, thank god.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm glad that they reached the point where

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Speaker 1: they're like, good, it won't bounce your uterus around too

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Speaker 1: much if you run up and down a full court right,

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Speaker 1: Because this reminds me of our episode on women running

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Speaker 1: marathon and even when sum it was going to those

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Speaker 1: Summer Olympics, in VENTI in Montreal. It was still a

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Speaker 1: crazy idea for a woman to run that long of

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Speaker 1: a distance. So this was a kind of mindset that

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Speaker 1: was going on when Title nine one was introduced. And

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Speaker 1: Pat Summit is going to come up a few more

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Speaker 1: times in this podcast because since she is the winningest

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Speaker 1: coach in n C Double A and the highest paid

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Speaker 1: female coach in the n C Double A, she's sort

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Speaker 1: of held, as you know, the pillar of female coaches.

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Speaker 1: I'd say, not just in basketball, but pretty much in

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Speaker 1: all collegiate sports because she made such an incredible name

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Speaker 1: for herself. But first, Caroline, let's speaking of women being

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Speaker 1: allowed to play full court basketball and bouncing our uteruses around.

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Speaker 1: Let's let's take a brief historical look at basketball for women. Yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: before it was for women, it was only for men. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: as is everything. Uh sorry that that's what I didn't

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Speaker 1: mean that to sounds better Except for corsets. Yeah, those

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Speaker 1: have always just been for women. Yeah, high heels though, no,

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Speaker 1: that's set. Rosemary Skein wrote a very comprehensive book titled

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Speaker 1: Very Simply Women College Basketball Coaches. I bet you can

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Speaker 1: guess what that's about. Yeah, But so in one basketball

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Speaker 1: was designed for male athletes who needed a winter sport

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Speaker 1: because God forbid they not play sports for a minute.

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Speaker 1: So the first public game was in March eight nine two,

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Speaker 1: but it was not that long after the women started playing.

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Speaker 1: Three months after that first public men's game, in March two,

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Speaker 1: Senda Barrenson, Smith Colleges, director of Physical Training, introduced the

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Speaker 1: game to women, and the first women's game was played

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Speaker 1: March twenty two at Smith. And in case you're wondering

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Speaker 1: at the score, Kristen uh sophomores five, freshman four. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but that game was just between Smith students. The first

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Speaker 1: intercollegiate women's game happened between Berkeley and Stanford. Ley alumni

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Speaker 1: out there, you won? Oh no, you lost. Christine really

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Speaker 1: wanted you to win, but trivia alert. Stanford's Martha Clark

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Speaker 1: made the very first basket in women's intercollegiate history, and

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Speaker 1: she did so while wearing a woolen uniform that covered

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Speaker 1: everything except for the face, neck, and hands. As were

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Speaker 1: you know, the the uniforms that all the women would

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Speaker 1: be wearing. I noticed you did not include feet in

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Speaker 1: that list. Were they footy uniform? They were not. I

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Speaker 1: think they were allowed to expose their feet and in

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Speaker 1: order to put them into shoes. Well, you know, we

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Speaker 1: it's it is scandalous to have women running and playing sports,

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Speaker 1: even in full body footy uniforms. Uh. The day of

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Speaker 1: that game, only two men were allowed to watch, and

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Speaker 1: they were a pe well physical education director and an instructor.

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Speaker 1: Women guarded the windows of the auditorium with sticks to

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Speaker 1: keep men from sneaking a peak and scain rights. Even

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Speaker 1: letting women watch was apparently considered dangerous since basketball was

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Speaker 1: invented for men. Physicians who believed women were delicate said

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Speaker 1: women would become hysterical watching other women play basketball. Oh my,

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Speaker 1: oh my. Although I do sometimes become hysterical watching, but

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Speaker 1: probably not for the reason that they think this is true.

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Speaker 1: So it takes a little while, though, for them to

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Speaker 1: develop rules for women's basketball. In eighteen ninety four, the

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Speaker 1: first women's rules appeared, but they weren't widely circulated. Then

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Speaker 1: in June eighteen ninety nine, sent A. Barnson, who was

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Speaker 1: that director of physical training at Smith College, worked with

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Speaker 1: other East Coast physical teachers to develop women's rules at

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Speaker 1: the Conference on Physical Training, and so in October of

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Speaker 1: nineteen o one, finally a good year. Yesal being Sporting

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Speaker 1: Goods published her rules as the official rules for women's basketball.

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Speaker 1: But those rules emphasize maintaining ladylike behavior of course, no

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Speaker 1: snatching of the ball for instance. But Brenson did favor

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Speaker 1: physical activity. She said, quote, it's all the more to

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Speaker 1: develop health and endurance if they desire to become candidates

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Speaker 1: for equal wages. It's a little bit of feminism tossed

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Speaker 1: in there as well. Basketball playing basketball can help you

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Speaker 1: earn equal wages with men. It can close the gender gap. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: send a Barrenson. Those predictions were not not really uh

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Speaker 1: would not come to fruition. Yeah, well, clearly a duel mosher.

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry if I'm really sorry if I just butchered

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Speaker 1: her name. She was a physician background this time in

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Speaker 1: the Victorian era, and she agreed with Barrenson as far

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Speaker 1: as like, let women have physical activities. So no, she

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Speaker 1: she had nothing to do with actual basketball. But it

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Speaker 1: was during this time that she was of the same

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Speaker 1: school of thought that women actually needed to have some

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Speaker 1: physical activity, and she wanted to prove that women were

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Speaker 1: not in fury or two men, and that the frailties

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Speaker 1: attributed to sex were really just the effects of binding

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Speaker 1: garments like those. Course, it's insufficient exercise and mental conditioning.

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Speaker 1: So get those women onto the court playing sports and

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Speaker 1: maybe one day will be equal. Yeah, Because I mean,

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Speaker 1: as much as we think about how exercise is something

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Speaker 1: that we today consider part of you know, a well

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Speaker 1: balanced life, where you're supposed to exercise, what five days

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Speaker 1: a week for sixty minutes at a time, I'm pulling

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Speaker 1: that out of the air. You're supposed to do it

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Speaker 1: a lot. But when all of this was going on,

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Speaker 1: it was socially unacceptable for women to be moving around

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Speaker 1: like that. This was also the time when things like

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Speaker 1: bicycles were coming into vogue, and it was a big

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Speaker 1: deal for women to ride bicycles because yes, it would

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Speaker 1: be straddling things. How would you do that, You'd have

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Speaker 1: to wear maybe something like a bloomer invented by Amelia Bloomer,

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Speaker 1: who was an early feminist. Um. You know, things that

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Speaker 1: we take for granted were revolutionary the time, like basketball. Um,

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Speaker 1: but let's talk about a few more of the more

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Speaker 1: modern pioneers of women's basketball, such as Carol Ekman, who

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Speaker 1: was considered the mother of collegiate women's basketball. National championships.

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Speaker 1: She's best known for establishing the first National Invitational women's

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Speaker 1: intercollegiate basketball tournament in nineteen Yeah. And then we have

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Speaker 1: Teresa Shank Grantz, who is the former head coach of

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Speaker 1: the women's basketball program at the University of Illinois, Rutgers University,

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Speaker 1: and Saint Joseph. She's a member of the Women's Basketball

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Speaker 1: Hall of Fame and was the Olympic head coach in

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Speaker 1: n and that year her team captured the bronze medal

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Speaker 1: in Barcelona. And Billy Moore, for some more trivia, was

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Speaker 1: the first coach in women's basketball history to lead teams

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Speaker 1: from two different schools to national championships. In those schools

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Speaker 1: were California State Fullerton and u C. L A. So

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Speaker 1: we are moving into the modern era, and like we

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Speaker 1: said in nineteen two, Title nine happens. So with Title nine,

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Speaker 1: schools that are receiving this federal funding have to equally

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Speaker 1: distribute it for men's and women's athletics. But what we

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Speaker 1: want to look at is how Title nine impacted not

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Speaker 1: so much the players and the women who like Pat

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Speaker 1: Summit benefited from Title nine by having more resources to

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Speaker 1: be able to get out on the court or get

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Speaker 1: out on the field and play. But how for again,

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Speaker 1: for people like Pat Summit, once their time was up playing,

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Speaker 1: whether or not coaching would be more open to them

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Speaker 1: as a lucrative occupation. Right, Well, it definitely influenced how

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Speaker 1: people saw women's sports, and not just making it more

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Speaker 1: socially acceptable, but also making it, Yeah, like you said,

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Speaker 1: more lucrative because all of a sudden, all the money's

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Speaker 1: flowing in, and now maybe men who wouldn't have considered

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Speaker 1: coaching women's teams are like, there's more in it for

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Speaker 1: me now. So yeah, speaking of men being interested in

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Speaker 1: coaching women's teams, a curious thing happens when Title nine

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Speaker 1: has passed. In nineteen seventy two, women coached more than

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Speaker 1: ninety percent of women's teams, but in such a short

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Speaker 1: amount of time, by nineteen seventy eight, that number had

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Speaker 1: dropped to fifty eight point two percent, and as of

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Speaker 1: two thousand ten, it was down to forty two point

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Speaker 1: nine percent. So today women coach fewer than half of

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Speaker 1: women's college teams. Yeah, and since two thousand, n C

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Speaker 1: Double A programs have added one thousand, seven seventy four

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Speaker 1: women's head coaching jobs. Men have filled over twelve hundred

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Speaker 1: of those openings. And you know, only about three percent

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Speaker 1: of men's teams are coached by women, and that's a

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Speaker 1: whole well other issues like why aren't women coaching men's

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Speaker 1: teams either? Yeah, and that percentage the percentage of women

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Speaker 1: coaching men's teams has not changed at all since Title I.

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Speaker 1: The only thing that has dropped is the percentage of

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Speaker 1: women coaching other women. And a lot of these statistics

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Speaker 1: are coming from early conference of article from ESPN magazine

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Speaker 1: written by Kate Fagan and Luke Ciphers on which they're

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Speaker 1: looking into this gender gap in women coaching, specifically women's teams,

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Speaker 1: because you would assume, oh, well, women's sports teams, you

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Speaker 1: can have a women's a female coach, But no, because,

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Speaker 1: like you said, Caroline uh, the increased money coming into

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Speaker 1: women's sports simply made it a more desirable option for

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Speaker 1: men's coaches who might not have been as qualified as

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Speaker 1: potential women's coaches. Well, so they looked into some of

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Speaker 1: the reasons as for like why there aren't as many

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Speaker 1: women coaching teams, and a lot of it has to

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Speaker 1: do with, Okay, there's a small pool of female candidates,

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Speaker 1: um there's a lack of second chances for female coaches.

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Speaker 1: A lot of women if they screw up, it's just

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Speaker 1: kind of it's not the same revolving door type of

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Speaker 1: situation that men have, like they can just go to

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Speaker 1: a different team. A lot of the times, if women

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Speaker 1: are fired or lose their coaching jobs, that's it for them.

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Speaker 1: A lack of female mentors, women just not applying for

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Speaker 1: these jobs retaliation for Title nine complaints. But a lot

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Speaker 1: of it also has to do with sexism and homophobia. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's this habit of women's basketball coaches hiring male assistance, uh,

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Speaker 1: to be kind of that quote unquote straight presence, because

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Speaker 1: there's this whole issue um in recruiting, of of negative recruiting,

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Speaker 1: of saying, you know, we're a family friendly program, but

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Speaker 1: over there, you know that that female coach at that school,

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Speaker 1: you know, we're not so sure, Yeah, because the stereotype

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Speaker 1: is is that a female sports coaches are lesbians. And

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Speaker 1: so the type of homophobic recruiting that goes on is

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Speaker 1: referred to as family friendly recruitment, saying things like to

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Speaker 1: a new recruit like, oh, you know, we were a

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Speaker 1: very family oriented environment with a wink and a nudge

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Speaker 1: to the parents saying, don't worry your daughter won't be

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Speaker 1: coached by a lesbian and possibly corrupted because of this.

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Speaker 1: And again, ESPN magazine covered this in February two thousand eleven,

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Speaker 1: and in and among fifty five percent of the college

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Speaker 1: players that ESPN spoke to, they said that sexual orientation

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Speaker 1: was quote an underlying topic of conversation with college recruiters percent.

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Speaker 1: So the homophobia is a pretty rampant thing, and it's

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Speaker 1: also a deterrent for would be coaches who might be gay,

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Speaker 1: who are like, you know what, I don't want to

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Speaker 1: have to live a closeted professional life and also be

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Speaker 1: you know, slurred for my for my lifestyle. Yeah, that

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Speaker 1: same ESPN article talked about how these homophobic, uh negative

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Speaker 1: recruiting policies are not policies, but practices are pretty unique

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Speaker 1: to the women's game. You don't you don't have a

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Speaker 1: male recruit coming up from high school, coming up the

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Speaker 1: ranks and them talking about, you know, issues of family friendliness.

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Speaker 1: But it's it's a general open secret as far as

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Speaker 1: like the code words of family friendly. Yeah. For instance,

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Speaker 1: University of Tennessee and University of Connecticut don't play each

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Speaker 1: other anymore, allegedly due to Yukon's anti gay recruitment against Uti,

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Speaker 1: claiming that, oh Pat Summit is a lesbian and so

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Speaker 1: you don't want to send your kids there. Apparently it

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Speaker 1: was a huge rivalry and the game used to be

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Speaker 1: a giant draw until finally Summit and University of Tennessee

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Speaker 1: were like, you know, we're not even gonna play this game.

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Speaker 1: So now that's less money coming into a women's game, right,

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Speaker 1: which you know, women's sports can use as much money

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Speaker 1: as possible. Um, which we'll get into a little bit later,

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Speaker 1: but um in two ESPN, But ESPN also talks about

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Speaker 1: how in two there was this homophobia mongering case of

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Speaker 1: Pam Parsons, who resigned as coach of South Carolina after

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Speaker 1: allegations that she had a relationship with one of her

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Speaker 1: basketball players. And they say that since that incident, that

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Speaker 1: kind of anti gay recruitment has been almost a common

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Speaker 1: part of the process, which is unfortunate. Yeah, so common

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Speaker 1: that Portland's States Sharing Mural is the only out lesbian

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Speaker 1: in Division one women's basketball. Yeah, and we should say

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Speaker 1: too that it's not just a thing of the whole

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Speaker 1: family friendly things, not just a wink and a a nudge

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Speaker 1: to you know, a homophobic sentiments. But it's also a

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Speaker 1: thing a winken and nudge saying this is in a

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Speaker 1: black program either we are you know, everything will be

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Speaker 1: safe for your child. There's a lot of there's a

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Speaker 1: dirty underbelly to this that's going on. So yeah, we

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Speaker 1: mentioned how you know, with all with the influx of

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Speaker 1: funds after the passage of Title nine, coaching a women's

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Speaker 1: basketball game became our a team, I'm sorry, became more

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Speaker 1: attractive to male coaches. And this brings us to what

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Speaker 1: we call a glass wall phenomenon where men can coach

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Speaker 1: women while women are shut out of the men's game.

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Speaker 1: So you know, they can see the jobs through the

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Speaker 1: glass wall, but they can't get there. And along these

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Speaker 1: same lines, a really interesting survey by never T. D. Walker,

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Speaker 1: who is a U mass Amherst professor and former Division

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Speaker 1: one basketball player. She talked to male coaches about you know,

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Speaker 1: would you hire a woman? Would you want to work

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Speaker 1: with a female coach? She found out that breaking that

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Speaker 1: institutional norm of hiring a woman as a coach really

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Speaker 1: required an exceptional candidate, like women have a much higher

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Speaker 1: burden of proof to use a legal term, because they

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Speaker 1: all cited pat Summit. Yeah. They were all like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you've got Pat Summit. I mean she's great, I totally

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Speaker 1: work with her. Was like, of course she would hire

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Speaker 1: the winning is coach in the n C double A.

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Speaker 1: But there does seem to be sometimes a disconnect maybe

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Speaker 1: between what male athletic directors or coaches think is going on.

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Speaker 1: It's almost like a blind sexism that might be happening

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Speaker 1: to what female coaches or would be coaches um are feeling. Um.

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Speaker 1: There was a study that took place in the nineteen

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Speaker 1: eighties which found that male athletic directors believed that female

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Speaker 1: coaches left their schools for just individual reasons like going

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Speaker 1: to spend more time with family or what have you,

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Speaker 1: whereas the female coaches who left had actually jumped ship

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Speaker 1: due to structural barriers like the glasswall phenomenon, like the

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Speaker 1: kind of homophobia that is still happening so often to today. UM.

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Speaker 1: And it is a problem because it doesn't seem to

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Speaker 1: be there doesn't seem to be a ton of communication

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Speaker 1: at least between um these you know, the men and

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Speaker 1: women in athletics. It's just kind of a thing where

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Speaker 1: the female basketball players don't see many female coaches, they

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Speaker 1: don't have many models, and they also know of women

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Speaker 1: who are coaching in the rare positions where they are

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Speaker 1: coaching or our assistant, and they really don't like the

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Speaker 1: jobs all that much and so they choose other paths. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that that's definitely a cycle. You see fewer coaches, you

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Speaker 1: have fewer role models, you might not choose that path,

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Speaker 1: and then you have no female coaches anymore. And it's

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Speaker 1: interesting that other Division one sports who which are traditionally

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Speaker 1: coached by women, are starting to see a decline also

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Speaker 1: in female coaches, like uh Division one softball female coaches

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Speaker 1: are down from seventy four point eight percent in two

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Speaker 1: thousand to six, and Division one field hockey female coaches

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Speaker 1: dropped from nine in two thousand to two. So maybe

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Speaker 1: not as significant as basketball as to dip the basketball seeing,

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Speaker 1: but still some of these coaches that ESPN talked to

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Speaker 1: were concerned, like, Hey, we don't want to you know,

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Speaker 1: it's not that we hate men, we just don't want

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Speaker 1: to lose coaching opportunities. And Nicole Levoy, who's the associate

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Speaker 1: director of the Tucker Center for Research on Girls and

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Speaker 1: Women in Sports has looked into this issue of, you know,

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Speaker 1: the female coaching role model a lot, and she talks

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Speaker 1: about how youth sports are overwhelmingly coached by men. The

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Speaker 1: whole thing is that the dad's coach while the moms

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Speaker 1: drive and put out orange slices, and so they grow

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Speaker 1: up to be recruits that don't want a female coach.

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Speaker 1: There was also a study that we found called Working

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Speaker 1: with Male Athletes the Experience of US Female Head Coaches

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Speaker 1: UM and they and they talked to these female coaches

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Speaker 1: about their experience with mentors and interestingly found that one

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Speaker 1: of the common themes was actually having a negative experience

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Speaker 1: with youth sports with a female coach. UM and they

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Speaker 1: also cided though an n C double a survey from

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Speaker 1: two thousand nine which found that a only ten percent

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Speaker 1: of female student athletes even cared to pursue coaching, and

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Speaker 1: that of that the rest of those who did not

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Speaker 1: want to pursue it cided knowing a female coach, he

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Speaker 1: was not happy in her role. So something is clearly

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Speaker 1: going on here. Yeah. Well, Matthew Malady in September asked,

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Speaker 1: why don't we care that there aren't any female coaches

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Speaker 1: coaching men for instance, like why don't why isn't it

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Speaker 1: more of a big deal that we have so few

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Speaker 1: women out there? And he he wrote that there are

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Speaker 1: zero female head or assistant coaches for the hundred and

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Speaker 1: twenty two teams playing in the NBA, MLB, NHL, and NFL.

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Speaker 1: It's basically considered impossible. He says that only three women

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Speaker 1: have ever been assistant coaches for men's college basketball teams.

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Speaker 1: That's Bernadette Matics, Jennifer Johnston, and Stephanie Ready. And he

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Speaker 1: said that this whole choosing a coach from such a

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Speaker 1: narrow pool thing is a totally flawed system, the narrow

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Speaker 1: pool being only men and only certain men. Yeah, it

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Speaker 1: was illuminating to read the coverage of Nancy Lieberman, who

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Speaker 1: was a superstar point guard for Old Dominion, who played

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Speaker 1: professionally for both men's and women's teams before coaching the

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Speaker 1: w n B a is Detroit Shock, and then became

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Speaker 1: head coach of the Texas Legends, which was a men's

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Speaker 1: team in the NBA's Development League. And it was this

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Speaker 1: huge deal because finally we have a female coach of

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Speaker 1: a professional team, even though it was a development league.

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Speaker 1: But nevertheless, all of these major media outlets are covering

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Speaker 1: Nancy Lieberman and the only thing they want to talk

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Speaker 1: about is the fact that, oh, you're a woman coaching

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Speaker 1: a man's team and talking to these athletes like, how

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Speaker 1: is it being, you know, being coached by a woman?

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Speaker 1: How can you handle that? And most of the time

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Speaker 1: the response of we're just along the lines of she's coach.

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Speaker 1: What I mean, she calls the place and we run them.

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Speaker 1: What else do you want to know? Yeah, And there

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Speaker 1: was one interview, you know what, I'm not even sure

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Speaker 1: if it was about Nancy Lieberman or just another female coach,

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Speaker 1: maybe even on the high school side, but one of

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Speaker 1: the players said, yeah, she's tiny, but when she's mad,

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Speaker 1: she's seven ft tall. Yeah, you know, like it's it's

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Speaker 1: not an issue of she has a vagina, I'm not

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Speaker 1: going to listen to her. It's she's the coach, she's

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Speaker 1: the authority figure, she's telling us what to do. We're

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Speaker 1: the players. We listened to her. And I can't imagine

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Speaker 1: that in locker room situations there might be different dynamics

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Speaker 1: of a woman sitting there and talking to a group

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Speaker 1: of guys versus a guy saying there talking to a

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Speaker 1: group of women. But I wonder why that is why

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Speaker 1: we're more comfortable with men leading a group of women

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Speaker 1: on the field than we are with a woman leading

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Speaker 1: a group of men on the field or the court.

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Speaker 1: I should say, is we're speaking about basketball specifically. Maybe

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Speaker 1: it's just what we're used to saying. Yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: what we are accustomed to seeing on the television. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean. It almost makes you wish that Pat Summit had,

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Speaker 1: you know, coach the U team men's team instead of

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Speaker 1: the women's team. But then again, we don't want to

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Speaker 1: take away good coaches from women's athletics. And I think

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Speaker 1: that is one of the main reasons why she was

428
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:22,399
Speaker 1: so dedicated to that women's team, because she came up

429
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:25,919
Speaker 1: through the ranks and new firsthand what it was like

430
00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:31,000
Speaker 1: to be marginalized as a female athlete. Um and speaking

431
00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:36,199
Speaker 1: of marginalization, because this is kind of a downer topic,

432
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:39,760
Speaker 1: let's talk about wages. Oh yeah, salary, let's get into

433
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:44,800
Speaker 1: that now. The two thousand eleven coaches compensation, four schools

434
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:47,199
Speaker 1: and four the previous five n C Double A women's

435
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:50,960
Speaker 1: basketball tournaments were pretty handsome. You know, Pat Summit makes

436
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:54,800
Speaker 1: a lot of money. Uh, that year according to stats

437
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:57,720
Speaker 1: published by You to Say today, she brought in one

438
00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:01,520
Speaker 1: point nine million dollars. I want to become a women's

439
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:03,919
Speaker 1: basketball coach. If you like to throw the ball at

440
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:08,479
Speaker 1: the net. You got it, Oh ladies, hooray. But just

441
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:13,119
Speaker 1: for contrast, Pat Summit again winning his coach. But just

442
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:16,240
Speaker 1: for contrast, again, Pat Summit winning his coach in the

443
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:20,160
Speaker 1: n C Double a one point nine million dollars. Her

444
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:24,560
Speaker 1: men's coach counterpart in the University of Tennessee brought in

445
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:29,280
Speaker 1: one point five million dollars A little bit less. But

446
00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:33,040
Speaker 1: if we go to the top earner for men's teams

447
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:37,560
Speaker 1: over Louisville with Rick Pettino, that dude brought home eight

448
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:43,520
Speaker 1: point nine million dollars. You can buy some fancy new

449
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:48,240
Speaker 1: shoes with that. Basketball is almost as lucrative as podcasting. Carolina. Yeah,

450
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:52,720
Speaker 1: I mean Summits compensation package is definitely unusual for women coaches.

451
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:55,760
Speaker 1: Um But from two thousand three to twenty two, let's

452
00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:57,840
Speaker 1: get some perspective, the average salary for the coach of

453
00:27:57,880 --> 00:27:59,879
Speaker 1: an n C Double, a Division one men's team in

454
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:04,160
Speaker 1: any sport increased by six to two d sixty seven

455
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,800
Speaker 1: thousand ish. The average salary for the coach of a

456
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:11,640
Speaker 1: women's team increased only by six percent in that time

457
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:15,560
Speaker 1: to thousand and I'm sure that you know, people would say, hey,

458
00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 1: why are you complaining about a dollar average salary? But

459
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:22,640
Speaker 1: when you look at this breakdown of these major pay

460
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:28,040
Speaker 1: gaps for male and female coaches, uh, you know, it's

461
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:32,359
Speaker 1: I think it speaks to something larger. Yeah. And then

462
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:35,399
Speaker 1: for Division one basketball in particular, the median salary for

463
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 1: coaches of a men's team in was nearly twice that

464
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:43,240
Speaker 1: of coaches for women's team, and over the past four years,

465
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:46,800
Speaker 1: the median pay of men's head coaches increased compared with

466
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:51,000
Speaker 1: for women's coaches. So yes, you could argue, okay, if

467
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:55,200
Speaker 1: you're looking at all Division one sports into in one package,

468
00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:58,240
Speaker 1: men could be making more because they're coaching more of

469
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:01,520
Speaker 1: the high profile sports like football, basketball. Women might be

470
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 1: teacher coaching more of the low profile sports. Okay, so

471
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 1: like softball or something. But yeah, I mean when you

472
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:11,440
Speaker 1: look at the actual basketball stats, women coaches just are

473
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:14,440
Speaker 1: not getting the same increases in salary that men are.

474
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 1: And you would say, well, that's not right because under

475
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:22,200
Speaker 1: the Equal Pay Act of nineteen sixty three, the pay

476
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:26,760
Speaker 1: for male basketball coach versus a female basketball coach should

477
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:33,560
Speaker 1: be comparable, but those differences emerge from third party money.

478
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 1: For instance, you know, Louisville's Rick Pettino brings in a

479
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:40,640
Speaker 1: bulk of that eight point nine million dollars, not so

480
00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:45,719
Speaker 1: much from coaching, but on supplements, talent fees, appearance fees,

481
00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:51,239
Speaker 1: endorsement agreements with apparel companies, summer camp, summer campus are

482
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:56,800
Speaker 1: huge way that coaches make cash, and those kinds of

483
00:29:56,800 --> 00:30:02,240
Speaker 1: opportunities are simply not there as much for female coaches.

484
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:06,760
Speaker 1: And there was an interesting thing pointed out. The writer

485
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:10,640
Speaker 1: talk to some lawyers who deal with contracts and said

486
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:14,280
Speaker 1: that athletic directors usually assume that women's players will be

487
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:18,640
Speaker 1: better students, so the academic clauses often are not included

488
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:21,000
Speaker 1: for these coaches. And as academic clauses being you know,

489
00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:24,120
Speaker 1: if your players, if your student athletes do really well

490
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:26,240
Speaker 1: in school, you'll make a bit of a bonus. They're like,

491
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:28,800
Speaker 1: women are already smart. Yeah, we're just gonna give you

492
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:31,400
Speaker 1: less money. Yeah, exactly for the women's teams that the

493
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 1: academic clause isn't is not there, But for the guys teams,

494
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:40,040
Speaker 1: it's like high five all your players made made good grades.

495
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 1: Good for you. But there's uh an interesting way too

496
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:48,280
Speaker 1: that men's coaches for women's teams can actually offer a

497
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:52,400
Speaker 1: cost savings to athletic departments because the Equal Pay Act

498
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:57,520
Speaker 1: focuses on gender based discrimination. So the New York Times

499
00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:01,920
Speaker 1: offered the example of can Hoockeys coach of the men's

500
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:04,840
Speaker 1: basketball team earning a one thou dollar bonus when his

501
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 1: team made round sixteen of the n C Double A Tournament,

502
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:13,240
Speaker 1: but the Wildcats women's coach received a forty dollar bonus

503
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 1: for doing the exact same thing. But because both coaches

504
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:21,440
Speaker 1: were dudes, no problem under the Equal Pay Act. So

505
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 1: maybe some schools are actively courting more male coaches because

506
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 1: they just don't have to deal with all of the

507
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:31,280
Speaker 1: equal pay kind of stuff. Yeah, the fact of the

508
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:34,840
Speaker 1: matter is about a third of women's teams were profitable

509
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:37,840
Speaker 1: as of two thousand and ten, according to the Department

510
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 1: of Education, and even then, the annual net profit was

511
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:45,280
Speaker 1: on average less than sixteen thousand dollars, and those were

512
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:52,640
Speaker 1: usually among smaller schools. So sure, I mean, from a

513
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:58,360
Speaker 1: financial standpoint, investing a lot in female coaches when you're

514
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:01,600
Speaker 1: not getting much out of those teams money wise, Uh,

515
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:06,560
Speaker 1: you might not be as motivated to to really invest

516
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:09,920
Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of resources in that. Yeah,

517
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:11,560
Speaker 1: but there's a lot of talent out there. And I

518
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:15,240
Speaker 1: mean Bleacher Report is one of the sources that did

519
00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:17,800
Speaker 1: recognize a lot of coaches of women's teams, not just

520
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:20,840
Speaker 1: female coaches of women's teams, but male coaches also. I

521
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 1: mean there were a lot of names among their fifty

522
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:27,200
Speaker 1: best college basketball coaches, and I won't list all of them,

523
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:30,360
Speaker 1: but of course Pat Summits on their uh, Tara Vanderveer

524
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:35,120
Speaker 1: from Stanford, Vivian Stringer from Rutgers, and then people like

525
00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:38,640
Speaker 1: Andy Lander's from U g A who coaches the Lady Dogs.

526
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 1: There is room, there is more room for women to

527
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 1: coach sports. But it's I mean, when is it is it?

528
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:48,760
Speaker 1: When is it going to change, Kristen, or when are

529
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:51,080
Speaker 1: we going to be like, yes, we want more women

530
00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:53,240
Speaker 1: role models. Is it just going to become a cycle

531
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:57,040
Speaker 1: of terrible, terrible things where we have few women's coaches,

532
00:32:57,080 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 1: so girls grow up not having women's coaches, and then

533
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 1: they only want men for coaches. I mean, I I

534
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:09,320
Speaker 1: feel like the problem is so multifaceted and largely money

535
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:12,680
Speaker 1: driven that. I don't think that not to be a cynic,

536
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:15,560
Speaker 1: I don't think that we are going to see many

537
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:19,840
Speaker 1: major changes anytime soon at all, because bottom line, I

538
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 1: think the fact that only a third of women's teams,

539
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:27,720
Speaker 1: and I think that is across sports are even profitable, um,

540
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:31,880
Speaker 1: is an argument against investing more resources than women's sports.

541
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:35,840
Speaker 1: And I think socially, you know, we don't value women's

542
00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:38,480
Speaker 1: athletics as much as we value men's period. Think about

543
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 1: the NBA versus the w n b A which how

544
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:44,120
Speaker 1: many jokes have you heard about watching women play basketball

545
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 1: insert punchline? Um? And I think that when I would

546
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:53,120
Speaker 1: like you know, listeners as we watch the n C

547
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:57,520
Speaker 1: Double A tournament stuff too, I don't know, consider all

548
00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 1: of the attention that those men's skeet versus the women

549
00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:04,040
Speaker 1: who are in you know, their own n C Double

550
00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:07,360
Speaker 1: A tournament. For instance, today on the news, I heard that,

551
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 1: you know, President Obama released his brackets for the n

552
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:14,800
Speaker 1: C Double A team. I think he's pulling for Indiana

553
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:20,200
Speaker 1: to win everything. Uh, the President's talking about it. You know,

554
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:24,320
Speaker 1: no one's doing the same thing for the women's teams.

555
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:26,160
Speaker 1: And if they were too, it would be it would

556
00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:29,520
Speaker 1: probably be some kind of a joke, you know, but

557
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:32,880
Speaker 1: but it's worth thinking about from from the coaching downward.

558
00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:38,400
Speaker 1: Also those recruiting tactics, um, you know, the the negative assumptions,

559
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:41,040
Speaker 1: and also why would it be a bad thing if

560
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:43,040
Speaker 1: your coach is a lesbian? All all that kind of

561
00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:46,319
Speaker 1: stuff that's wrapped up into something we might not think

562
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:48,799
Speaker 1: about all that much. A because we don't see it,

563
00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:52,000
Speaker 1: because we don't see women coaching all that much. And um,

564
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:54,359
Speaker 1: you know, it's really only this one time of year

565
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:57,320
Speaker 1: when we're even paying all that much attention to basketball.

566
00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:02,360
Speaker 1: Maybe that's just me. I'm not an have a basketballer. Yeah,

567
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:05,480
Speaker 1: I don't know, what do you think? Yeah? I think

568
00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:08,040
Speaker 1: we're gonna be waiting a while before we see a

569
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 1: lot more women's coaches. And you know, maybe we're gonna

570
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:13,239
Speaker 1: be waiting even longer than I think, because obviously the

571
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 1: numbers are on the down swing. Yeah, but it's definitely

572
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 1: it's worth a conversation of you know, why why are

573
00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:25,080
Speaker 1: we so not okay with seeing women coaching, especially women

574
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:28,680
Speaker 1: coaching men's teams. They're here and there, but there's such

575
00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:31,120
Speaker 1: a novel Yeah, I mean, there are plenty of men's coaches,

576
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:34,919
Speaker 1: male men's coaches who maybe weren't good enough to play

577
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:37,719
Speaker 1: in college, but they're still excellent coaches because they have

578
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:40,680
Speaker 1: a head for the game, they've studied, you know, they

579
00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:44,400
Speaker 1: they love the game. They're great coaches. So you know,

580
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:48,239
Speaker 1: that's another argument, like if a woman who didn't necessarily

581
00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:50,920
Speaker 1: play at a big school play basketball at a big

582
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:53,839
Speaker 1: school in college, she can still coach women or men

583
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:57,000
Speaker 1: if she studies, is passionate about the game, you know.

584
00:35:57,239 --> 00:35:59,800
Speaker 1: I mean, but like you said, though, I mean that

585
00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:04,360
Speaker 1: all roots back to that finding out of ums Amherst

586
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:08,840
Speaker 1: never two D. Walker's study that female coaches inherently have

587
00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:12,799
Speaker 1: that higher burden of proof to meet. Yeah, so we

588
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:14,880
Speaker 1: could always just go on and on and if we

589
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:19,600
Speaker 1: could just clone Pat Summit, that's the answer. Yes. Uh,

590
00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:24,560
Speaker 1: But in the meantime, basketball players out there, coaches, anyone

591
00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:26,520
Speaker 1: interested in sports, or if you just want to send

592
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:29,960
Speaker 1: us your bracket, let us know your I won't know

593
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:33,400
Speaker 1: what to do with it. Mom. Stuff at Discovery dot

594
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:37,759
Speaker 1: com is our email address. And speaking of letters, I

595
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:41,319
Speaker 1: have one here from Emily, She says, while listening to

596
00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:44,320
Speaker 1: your podcast on animal testing, my opinion on animal testing

597
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:47,720
Speaker 1: really changed. I have an albino lab rate as a pet.

598
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:49,960
Speaker 1: Long story short, he needed a home before he was

599
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:52,200
Speaker 1: fed to a snake, and I realized I just couldn't

600
00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:54,200
Speaker 1: deal with the thought of my sweet little friend being

601
00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:56,120
Speaker 1: in pain just for a product that might not even

602
00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 1: hit the human market. Ever, I wish products would not

603
00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:02,480
Speaker 1: contain day jurious enough ingredients that require animal testing to

604
00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:05,280
Speaker 1: make sure the product is safe for human use. After

605
00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:08,080
Speaker 1: so many years of scientific research, we know what is

606
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:11,080
Speaker 1: and isn't toxic. Well, I understand there will always be

607
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:14,440
Speaker 1: animal testing for medical purposes to save human lives. I

608
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:18,919
Speaker 1: hope animal testing will decrease in the cosmetic industry. These

609
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:21,760
Speaker 1: little fellows have feelings too, and I've made a great

610
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:25,640
Speaker 1: friend with a rat bread to be food slash a

611
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:28,960
Speaker 1: lab test. So thank you, Emily, And I am just

612
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:32,160
Speaker 1: picturing your little friend wearing a teeny tiny mouse hat. Well,

613
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:36,120
Speaker 1: I've got one here from Alis about that same episode

614
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:40,759
Speaker 1: on animal research, and she writes it got me a

615
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:44,880
Speaker 1: little riled. I am a m d PhD student studying

616
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:48,239
Speaker 1: molecular genetics and I use mice in my research for

617
00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:51,399
Speaker 1: my PhD. And of course I listen to this most

618
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:54,799
Speaker 1: recent podcast while working in my lab. I know most

619
00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 1: of the podcast was about commercial testing on animals, but

620
00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:01,080
Speaker 1: you did seem to conflate animal research and animal testing

621
00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 1: on occasion. I must confess I don't know what the

622
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:06,719
Speaker 1: rules are for animal testing of commercial products, or even

623
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:10,240
Speaker 1: if there are any rules, which is a scary thought. However,

624
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:13,520
Speaker 1: animals used in medical school research are very tightly controlled.

625
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 1: Our universally received National Institutes of Health funds, so all

626
00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:20,320
Speaker 1: investigators at the school have to comply with NIH animal

627
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:23,600
Speaker 1: testing guidelines. Everyone who works with lab animals has to

628
00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:25,680
Speaker 1: go through training, and there are very strict rules for

629
00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:29,680
Speaker 1: how you can operate on or kill an animal. For example,

630
00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:33,000
Speaker 1: animals can only be euthanized using methods proven to cause

631
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:35,640
Speaker 1: the animal minimal suffering, and if the surgery is done

632
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:40,160
Speaker 1: on the animal, even the dosing of anesthetics is regulated. Also,

633
00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:42,400
Speaker 1: when you apply to the NIH for funding, you have

634
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:44,400
Speaker 1: to estimate the number of animals that you use and

635
00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:48,360
Speaker 1: justify why you can't use fewer than that number. I

636
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:50,319
Speaker 1: know the system isn't perfect, and it took me a

637
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:52,680
Speaker 1: long time to come to terms with using animals in

638
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:57,279
Speaker 1: my research, but for now it's what we've got, so thanks,

639
00:38:57,320 --> 00:38:59,799
Speaker 1: at least into everyone who has written into moms Stuff

640
00:38:59,840 --> 00:39:02,680
Speaker 1: at a discovery dot com. You can also find us

641
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:05,000
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