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Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. I guess, like many

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Speaker 1: people my age, we grew up going to vacation Bible

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Speaker 1: school during the summer, going to Sunday School on Sundays,

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Speaker 1: and unlike being in school, there was something different by

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Speaker 1: Sunday School teacher. They weren't there for the pay. They

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Speaker 1: were there because they felt as though that it was

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Speaker 1: a calling and they wanted to teach kids right from wrong, essentially,

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Speaker 1: and I have fond memories of those that that taught

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Speaker 1: me as a small child. But today we're gonna talk

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Speaker 1: about a woman who had essentially devoted her entire life

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Speaker 1: to God and to the education of children in her community.

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Speaker 1: Today we're gonna talk about the homicide La Sasha Cross.

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Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Body Backs. Joining

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Speaker 1: me today is Jackie Howard, executive producer of Crime Stories

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Speaker 1: with Nancy Grays. I can't fathom why anyone in the

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Speaker 1: world would want to just randomly set about destroying such

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Speaker 1: a beautiful life. But I'm beginning to think about what

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Speaker 1: happened to Sarah Krauss out there in that cold desert

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Speaker 1: at northern Arizona, and it conjures up images of monsters

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Speaker 1: rising up out of the dark, and I think that

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Speaker 1: that is probably what happened in the cases. Sarah just

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Speaker 1: living her life, not a care in the world other

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Speaker 1: than taking care of these kids that were in her charge,

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Speaker 1: and then suddenly she vanishes from her Mennonite community. There

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Speaker 1: are so many facts in this case, Joe, that really

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Speaker 1: are difficult to understand. The first thing for me that

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Speaker 1: struck me seven year old Sasha Krause was a Sunday

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Speaker 1: school teacher and she worked in the publishing industry, and

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Speaker 1: she was shot in the head and left in the cold.

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Speaker 1: She disappeared from New Mexico in January and her body

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Speaker 1: was found by a camper in Arizona. Remember it's January.

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Speaker 1: Her body was left out in the cold. But what's

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Speaker 1: surprising about this case is the man who was charged

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Speaker 1: with Krause's death, Mark Gooch, and Sasha Krause, didn't know

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Speaker 1: each other. Yet there is no sex assault that can

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Speaker 1: be verified. The autopsy says it could not be conclusive,

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Speaker 1: and there's no other outside relationship that can be verified

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Speaker 1: between these two people. That's a curious thing, because you know,

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Speaker 1: it's not like Sasha lived in an environment that was

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Speaker 1: heavily populated, like where you think that there's going to

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Speaker 1: be an opportunity for some stranger to cross her path

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Speaker 1: that meant her harm in some big urban area or

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Speaker 1: perhaps in her little community, would be very easy to

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Speaker 1: narrow down anyone that might have held a grudge against

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Speaker 1: her in and let's face that she was a Mennonite.

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Speaker 1: The Mennonites, by their nature are pacifist. And so you

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Speaker 1: think who in the world would portrate this kind of

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Speaker 1: violence as level of violence on this poor young woman

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Speaker 1: who had lived her life by the tenants of the

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Speaker 1: Bible essentially, and the tenants of her community educating small children,

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Speaker 1: who would seek to target her, And that that makes

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Speaker 1: this case all the more horrible because it's yeah, I

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Speaker 1: think for the people that lived around her, lived within

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Speaker 1: this community, and her family that lived back in Texas,

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Speaker 1: the moment that they realized that she was missing, I'm

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Speaker 1: sure that they were sitting around scratching their heads wondering

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Speaker 1: where in the world could she be. She didn't light

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Speaker 1: out in her car, Her car was still there. It's

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Speaker 1: almost as if she had just vanished into thin air

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Speaker 1: at their community in New Mexico. So your investigative skills

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Speaker 1: are going to have to be top notch one this

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Speaker 1: one because when we look at what happened, as you

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Speaker 1: pointed out, she just disappeared. So when Sasha Krauss went missing,

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Speaker 1: the investigators really had to bring their a game, as

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Speaker 1: we obviously know they always do. But there was very

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Speaker 1: very little to go on. As you just said, her

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Speaker 1: car was still there. They had little information to go on.

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Speaker 1: So when this is the case, what do you do, Joe, Well,

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Speaker 1: you have to start at the beginning, where she was

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Speaker 1: last seen and who her intimate circle is. And we

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Speaker 1: we've talked about this before long body backs. It's not

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Speaker 1: like you're looking for someone that is a stranger to

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Speaker 1: the individual, that someone that has this level of hatred

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Speaker 1: and this this is a sign of hatred. And you're

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Speaker 1: bringing about the death of this young woman that hasn't

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Speaker 1: the best r own knowledge, done any significant harm to anybody.

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Speaker 1: So who would lash out at her? Is there someone

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Speaker 1: in the community? You know? From that point, tom becomes

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Speaker 1: certainly an issue because you know, initially when you look

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Speaker 1: at this, this is not homicide. It's not you're looking

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Speaker 1: for a member of your group that has gone missing.

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Speaker 1: So you the human brain is not necessarily the default

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Speaker 1: position is not homicide. Okay, they just think missing. They're

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Speaker 1: gonna think, well, maybe she wandered off in the scrub.

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Speaker 1: Maybe she's off somewhere out in the distance and she

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Speaker 1: hadn't been able to find her way back. Maybe she's

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Speaker 1: injured somewhere. We want to go try to put together

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Speaker 1: team and find her. And that's generally how these things

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Speaker 1: start out. The problem is, many times when things start

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Speaker 1: out as a missing person's case, evidence for instance, that

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Speaker 1: could be essential to a homicide investigation might be overlooked

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Speaker 1: or might be disturbed in some manner. Let me give

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Speaker 1: you an example. Let's say, for instance, you've got somebody

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Speaker 1: that was last known to be in a building, okay,

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Speaker 1: like in a structure, they have an office, or maybe

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Speaker 1: it's their home or whatever the case might be, and

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Speaker 1: the individual vanishes. They disappear. Well immediately, if you begin

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Speaker 1: to search that area in which they dwell, that space

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Speaker 1: that they occupied normally, you're gonna be in a fever

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Speaker 1: to try to find them. You're not gonna be thinking

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Speaker 1: about trace evidence necessarily. You'll be looking for big thing.

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Speaker 1: So as you kind of make your way through a dwelling.

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Speaker 1: For instance, you're throwing open doors, you're touching door handles,

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Speaker 1: you're scuffing on the floor. Maybe you're outside and the

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Speaker 1: bushes adjacent to the entrance and the exit to a building.

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Speaker 1: You might be trampling on footprints for all you know,

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Speaker 1: you might be trampling on cigarette butts, anything that might

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Speaker 1: give you an indication later on that someone had kind

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Speaker 1: of interjected themselves into Sasha's environment and had removed her

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Speaker 1: from that location, somebody that may perhaps have brought about

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Speaker 1: her death. At that moment time, all you want to

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Speaker 1: do is find her safe and secure, and of course,

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Speaker 1: as we know, that turned out not to be the case.

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Speaker 1: When Krause's car was found in the investigative teams went

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Speaker 1: through it. She disappeared after eating dinner with her roommates,

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Speaker 1: and she didn't have her wallet, she didn't have money,

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Speaker 1: she didn't have her driver's license, and obviously she didn't

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Speaker 1: have her car. So that was a first clue, wasn't it.

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Speaker 1: That's that first step that you're talking about in setting

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Speaker 1: up a timeline of when she went missing. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it It is all of those little elements that make

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Speaker 1: up who we are. They come into play those things

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Speaker 1: that we have very specific and intimate control over in

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Speaker 1: our lives. Identifiers I D for instance, a driver's license

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Speaker 1: or sub security card, or maybe a purse, a pocketbook,

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Speaker 1: or maybe a backpack that we are known to carry.

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Speaker 1: Either an absence or presence of those is going to

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Speaker 1: play into the investigation is going to be a significant finding.

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Speaker 1: If you find, say, for instance, a pocketbook that is

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Speaker 1: just laying on the ground, and you can't find the

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Speaker 1: person that's associated with it, then that's going to be

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Speaker 1: a big tell. Conversely, if the pocketbook is gone, you

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Speaker 1: would make this kind of logical assumption, well, they might

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Speaker 1: not have taken their card, but they left with their pocketbook,

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Speaker 1: for instance, or left with keys, or left with money,

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Speaker 1: that sort of thing, And so it paints it in

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Speaker 1: a different light depended upon what you find for your

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Speaker 1: initial investigation into a case like this. UM, I like

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Speaker 1: to camp. I camp with my family a couple of

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Speaker 1: times a year, I say, I like to My wife

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Speaker 1: likes to do it more than I do, but I

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Speaker 1: try to indulge her and be a good husband, so

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Speaker 1: I'll go out and camp. But one of the things

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Speaker 1: that we do is we go out and we gather

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Speaker 1: firewood if we haven't brought our own. And I cannot

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Speaker 1: imagine what it's like to be in a peaceful environment

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Speaker 1: where you're trying to recharge your batteries, you're out picking

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Speaker 1: up firewood, and then all of a sudden you look

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Speaker 1: down and you see a body. I can't imagine what

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Speaker 1: that would be like. I think that probably my gut

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Speaker 1: ray I action, at least initially would be is the

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Speaker 1: person alive? And then I would begin to think, well,

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Speaker 1: if they're deceased, is there a chance that harm is

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Speaker 1: going to come to me? The person who found Sasha

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Speaker 1: Krause probably felt exactly the same thing, given what could

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Speaker 1: be seen. Sasha's body was found near Sunset Crater of

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Speaker 1: volcano and the National Monuments. They're outside Flagstaff. That's more

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Speaker 1: than two hundred and seventy miles from the place where

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Speaker 1: Sasha was last seen. She had on the same clothes

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Speaker 1: that she was wearing when she was taken, and she

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Speaker 1: had several injuries to her head, and her hands were

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Speaker 1: duct taped. So just seeing the duct tape around somebody's

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Speaker 1: hands would be frightening enough. So investigators come and they

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Speaker 1: start to process the scene. Walk me through that, Joe,

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Speaker 1: because there's a lot of things going on here that

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Speaker 1: they have to make note of. Yeah, it certainly is

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Speaker 1: duct tape. I'm glad that you brought that up, because

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Speaker 1: it's one of those things that it gives you pause.

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Speaker 1: It's unreasonable to think that anyone would obviously duct take

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Speaker 1: their own wrist. So you know from Jump Street that

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Speaker 1: something is amiss here. And this young woman who according

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Speaker 1: to the police, when they observed her body, she appeared

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Speaker 1: to be dressed in homemade clothing. Now keep in mind,

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Speaker 1: they have no idea who this is. All they know

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Speaker 1: is that a camper is reported finding a body out

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Speaker 1: here in this wilderness area in this national park, and

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Speaker 1: she's laying there on the ground. Hands are visible, duct

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Speaker 1: tape is visible, and kind of in a an interesting thing.

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Speaker 1: They look down and they see one of the things

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Speaker 1: that kind of stands out to them. They notice that

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Speaker 1: not only is she wearing kind of this homespun dress,

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Speaker 1: but her hair, which is brown, is tied up in

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Speaker 1: a neat bun on the back of her head. And

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Speaker 1: of course that comes into play later, but it's just

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Speaker 1: one of those identifying factors. A young lady like this

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Speaker 1: that appears I would imagine, so very passive in her

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Speaker 1: appearance out there would wind up in a state like this,

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Speaker 1: and this is a dirt, kind of a loose dirt

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Speaker 1: surface that you're looking at here, and you know, you

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Speaker 1: have to think, were they thinking at that moment time

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Speaker 1: did she actually walk to this spot herself? Because you

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Speaker 1: would be looking certainly for footprints of any kind that

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Speaker 1: might say match up with she wear that she is

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Speaker 1: currently wearing. But one of the things that they found

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Speaker 1: immediately adjacent to her body that is significant are what

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Speaker 1: they termed as drag marks. Now, drag marks can come

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Speaker 1: about in any number of ways, and they can present

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Speaker 1: in kind of a number of ways. But if you

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Speaker 1: are essentially dragging someone along, let's say you're dragging them

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Speaker 1: in a supine position, which means face up, and you're

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Speaker 1: dragging them by the collar, there's a high probability that

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Speaker 1: the drag marks that will be left behind are going

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Speaker 1: to be generated from the heels of the feet, because

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Speaker 1: the pressure is going to adjust so that the heels

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Speaker 1: make contact and the ground will kind of furrow out,

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Speaker 1: if you will. Now, conversely, if you think about flipping

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Speaker 1: person over and having them almost in a prone posture,

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Speaker 1: as you're dragging them, of course they would be bent

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Speaker 1: at the hips. The presentation of the marks themselves will

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Speaker 1: be more broad because more than likely your legs will

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Speaker 1: be contacting periodically the ground from your kneecaps all the

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Speaker 1: way down to the tips of your toes, So those

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Speaker 1: are going to have a different appearance. I think that

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Speaker 1: what is important is you have to think about how

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Speaker 1: delicate these marks are, because in in when I say delicate,

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Speaker 1: I'm talking about the level of fragility that might exist.

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Speaker 1: You have to be very careful as you begin to

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Speaker 1: kind of, you know, march back from maybe their origin.

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Speaker 1: If they're found immediately adjacent to her body, you have

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Speaker 1: to think about the point of origin. Is there, say,

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Speaker 1: for instance, a parking pad that's not too far away

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Speaker 1: that you're going to drag somebody from, and are there

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Speaker 1: other marks? Maybe she was able to walk part of

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Speaker 1: the way, and you'll see footprints that kind of fall

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Speaker 1: in line with these drag marks, and then suddenly the

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Speaker 1: drag marks pick up. Maybe you have footprints again, and

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Speaker 1: then you have more drag marks, and and that will

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Speaker 1: tell you a lot as well, because you would be thinking, well,

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Speaker 1: if she's walking, she's still alive, So maybe the place

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Speaker 1: where she died was where the body is found, as

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Speaker 1: opposed to having been killed somewhere else and drug to

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Speaker 1: that location. So not only are you looking for her

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Speaker 1: drag marks, you're looking for her footprints, but also one

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Speaker 1: thing you have to consider, you would be looking for

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Speaker 1: the footprints of the person that drug her, and they're

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Speaker 1: going to look obviously completely different than hers would. She's

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Speaker 1: not a large person, so her footprints would appear rather diminutive,

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Speaker 1: and you would be looking for somebody perhaps that has

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Speaker 1: the strength, you know, those footprints would be more robust

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Speaker 1: in appearance. There's any number of different types of evidence

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Speaker 1: that could be associated with this. As I mentioned earlier,

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Speaker 1: you would be looking for things that are associated with her.

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Speaker 1: If there's any kind of scrub brush that's along the way,

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Speaker 1: you can look for fiber evidence. I mentioned her dress

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Speaker 1: as homespun, Okay, so that's going to be a very specific,

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Speaker 1: homemade creation. It's not like it's not like you walk

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Speaker 1: into a big department store and find this item that

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Speaker 1: she's wearing. These things, these dresses that she is wearing,

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Speaker 1: their handmade. This is something that is unique to her

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Speaker 1: and it has a very specific fabric. It has a

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Speaker 1: very specific pattern. So let's just say, for instance, you're

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Speaker 1: moving her through this brush and you happen to catch

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Speaker 1: a bit of this fiber on a twig that's sticking out. Well,

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Speaker 1: that from a fiber trace evidence perspective, which is one

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Speaker 1: of the practices in forensic science, we can actually marry

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Speaker 1: that up with a clothing that she is wearing. You know,

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Speaker 1: you look for things like thread count and all these

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Speaker 1: sorts of things, and the twist in the in the

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Speaker 1: actual weave, which is significant. All of these things play in.

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Speaker 1: We have fiber evidence that is to be considered. We

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Speaker 1: have hair evidence that is to be considered. Remember when

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Speaker 1: they found her. When they found her, her head was bare,

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Speaker 1: and we can get into that a little bit more.

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Speaker 1: But her hair was exposed. It was up in a bun.

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Speaker 1: So if there's hair that you're careful to collect, maybe

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Speaker 1: that's caught up in some of the brush. And again

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Speaker 1: that is a specific biological tie back to her. And

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Speaker 1: I think finally, if you begin to talk about assessment

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Speaker 1: of injuries. For instance, in Sausha's case, we do know

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Speaker 1: that she had sustained injuries to her head, and if

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Speaker 1: that had occurred somewhere back up the trail, for instance,

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Speaker 1: you would have to be very very careful that you

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Speaker 1: look for traces of, say, for instance, blood evidence in

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Speaker 1: any particular spot that might be along that kind of

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Speaker 1: marries up with this path that's being followed, which of

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Speaker 1: course terminates in the discovery of her deceased person. A

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Speaker 1: couple of points here. When Sasha was found it was

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Speaker 1: January in Arizona. The other point is she was laying

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Speaker 1: face down in the clearing in the forest. What does

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Speaker 1: that position do combined with the temperature to the decomposition factor.

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Speaker 1: Obviously it was more than a month from her disappearance

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Speaker 1: when her body was found, And if it was on

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Speaker 1: an average day in Arizona, say three o'clock in the afternoon,

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Speaker 1: you're going to have average temperatures. But it was cold

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Speaker 1: and her body was faced down. What's that going to

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Speaker 1: tell us? And how does that impact the autop seeing

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Speaker 1: what was done to her head injuries. She's found in Arizona,

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Speaker 1: and I think that many people that have not spent

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Speaker 1: much time in Arizona, which I'm proud to say that

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Speaker 1: I have. I was there stationed in the army at

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Speaker 1: for what you get down the southern part of the state,

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Speaker 1: and I've traveled over a goodly portion of the state.

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Speaker 1: Beautiful place. And most people associate Arizona with desert Okay,

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Speaker 1: and there is a lot of desert. People don't realize

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Speaker 1: how cold the desert can be. When you get up

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Speaker 1: in the northern portion of the state, which is near Flagstaff.

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Speaker 1: In that area, it gets very cold. As a matter

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Speaker 1: of fact, I think if I'm not mistaken near Flagstaff

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Speaker 1: to actually have ski resorts up there, all right, And

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Speaker 1: I might be mistaken, but I think that's accurate. The

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Speaker 1: average temperature in January for that particular area is at

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Speaker 1: the low rather the low average low is about twelve

303
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Speaker 1: degrees just that's colder. That's colder obviously than we keep

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Speaker 1: our refrigerators at home. That's colder than our freezers from

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Speaker 1: most people. So to your point, Jackie, the idea that yes,

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Speaker 1: she had been out there a month and there will

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Speaker 1: be some decompositional changes in her body. However, you have

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Speaker 1: to consider because there is such a low temperature over

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Speaker 1: this period of time, perhaps on average, that is going

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Speaker 1: to retard the decompositional process. It's going to slow it.

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Speaker 1: And as we've said, on body bags before, and I

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Speaker 1: will continue to say heat speeds things up, and when

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Speaker 1: you have an absence of heat and you replace the

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Speaker 1: ambient air temperature with cold air, it's going to slow

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Speaker 1: this process down. When we begin to think about the

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Speaker 1: position that she was found in, and this is quite tragic,

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Speaker 1: I think, because that could be the position she was

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Speaker 1: lasting in life. This is, at least in my assessment,

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Speaker 1: what you would term as a classic execution style homicide.

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Speaker 1: Sasha unfortunately was shot in the back of the head

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Speaker 1: execution style. This is something where you begin to think

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Speaker 1: about We've talked before about asymmetrical positioning relative to a

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Speaker 1: victim and the perpetrator. So you have an individual that

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Speaker 1: is dominant over her that is literally firing into the

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Speaker 1: back of her head. So she would be in a

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Speaker 1: submissive position, laying on the ground, perhaps hands restrained with

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Speaker 1: the duct tape, and then this single round is fired

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Speaker 1: into the back of her head, which of course ends

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Speaker 1: her life in that isolated spot away from everybody else,

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Speaker 1: And you think about it, and that's so sad because

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Speaker 1: here this woman was that had devoted herself to living

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Speaker 1: in this community, these people that she loved, and she

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Speaker 1: loved these kids and she's out in the middle of

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Speaker 1: this wilderness and she dies all along in fear with

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Speaker 1: her hands bound. It's a horrible thing to consider. The

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Speaker 1: further examination of her reveal that she had sustained blunt

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Speaker 1: force trauma to her head and that's that's in addition

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Speaker 1: to the gunshot one. Okay, so what does that say. Well,

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00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:06,400
Speaker 1: if there's evidence of blunt force trauma, that means that

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Speaker 1: this is going to be anti mortem trauma. That means

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00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:13,280
Speaker 1: that there would be in dwelling hemorrhage. That is the

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00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:16,480
Speaker 1: body's response to any kind of impact injury she may

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Speaker 1: have sustained. So you'll have a bruise that sets in,

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Speaker 1: for instance, and that's the body's response to being struck.

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Speaker 1: You wouldn't have that in death. And at least I

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Speaker 1: think that in cases like this, where you're trying to

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Speaker 1: get somebody to submit, where you, as a perpetrator have

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Speaker 1: made the decision that you're finally going to end their life,

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Speaker 1: you have to get them to submit. And maybe that

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Speaker 1: blow or blows to her head was an attempt to

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Speaker 1: get her to submit, to lay down in that cold,

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Speaker 1: cold dirt out there in the middle of the high desert,

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Speaker 1: and it was at that moment time he shot her

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Speaker 1: in the back of the head. But what about being

355
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Speaker 1: faced down in the clearing that contact with the ground.

356
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Speaker 1: How does that impact knowing what happened to her? First off,

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00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:15,720
Speaker 1: we go back to the idea of preservation, and not

358
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Speaker 1: only do we have an ambient environmental temperature the air,

359
00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:23,280
Speaker 1: the air temperature that we're talking about, but you have

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Speaker 1: to think about the temperature of the earth that is

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00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:30,280
Speaker 1: underlying her body, that that space would be cold as well,

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Speaker 1: which again would to a certain degree promote perhaps preservation

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Speaker 1: of the remains. You think about her contacting her her

364
00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:42,199
Speaker 1: surfaces of her body, which if she's faced down, that

365
00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:44,679
Speaker 1: means that she's in a prone position. So one of

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Speaker 1: the things I think would be significant here is if

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00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:51,359
Speaker 1: she was in this prone position when she was found.

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Speaker 1: You have to ask the question when she drug out

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Speaker 1: there in kind of a face down position. Just imagine

370
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Speaker 1: if she had been grabbed by the scruff of the

371
00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:02,359
Speaker 1: neck is they used to say, maybe by the shirt collar,

372
00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:05,920
Speaker 1: and she's drug out there and placed in this position

373
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Speaker 1: out there, think about that and think about the marks

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Speaker 1: that that would have left on the soil and then

375
00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:15,560
Speaker 1: concurrently the soil the earth contacting her body and you

376
00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:18,359
Speaker 1: begin to look for trace elements they're relative to the

377
00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:22,080
Speaker 1: soil that will present on the surface of her clothing,

378
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:24,159
Speaker 1: you know, on the front in particular, if she was

379
00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:26,040
Speaker 1: brought out there in a prompt position, and you'll get

380
00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:30,720
Speaker 1: an idea if those fibers have been scraped across their

381
00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:34,240
Speaker 1: leading surfaces as a result of being drug and at

382
00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:36,840
Speaker 1: that time of the year as well, one of the

383
00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:41,040
Speaker 1: other things from an entomological standpoint, you have to understand

384
00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:43,280
Speaker 1: that at that point in time, when it's so cold,

385
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:46,160
Speaker 1: there's going to be quite a bit of dormancy in

386
00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:49,080
Speaker 1: insect activity out there, So it's that's not going to

387
00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:51,480
Speaker 1: play as big a factor that it would, say, for instance,

388
00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:54,040
Speaker 1: if it if you were getting into the warmer months,

389
00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:56,240
Speaker 1: they're going to be in a period of dormancy because

390
00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:59,679
Speaker 1: it is so very cold out there, So insect activity

391
00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:01,840
Speaker 1: that my come up from the surrounding earth is not

392
00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:04,639
Speaker 1: going to be as as prevalent at this time of

393
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:06,200
Speaker 1: the year because they're going to be in a period

394
00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:08,840
Speaker 1: of dormancy compared to what it would be like, say,

395
00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:10,840
Speaker 1: for instance, when we get into the warmer months like

396
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:34,359
Speaker 1: March in April and May, when the local authorities up

397
00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:36,680
Speaker 1: in northern Arizona got this phone call. I can only

398
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:41,080
Speaker 1: imagine their response. You've got the remains of a young

399
00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:45,240
Speaker 1: woman that are found out there in homespun clothing in

400
00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:50,440
Speaker 1: the depth of wintertime out there. I can only imagine

401
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:52,879
Speaker 1: they're scratching their heads and they're saying, where did she

402
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:56,640
Speaker 1: come from? Because there are no cars that are associated

403
00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:59,439
Speaker 1: with her out here. She's just laying here in this

404
00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:02,879
Speaker 1: wildern this area just was happened upon by a total

405
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:07,360
Speaker 1: stranger that was out gathering firewood. Police connected an Air

406
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:11,000
Speaker 1: Force member by the name of Mark Gooch to the

407
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:14,720
Speaker 1: death of Sasha Krause, and they did that through surveillance

408
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:19,560
Speaker 1: video and cell phone records. There doesn't seem to be

409
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:23,520
Speaker 1: any connection, as we said earlier, between these two individuals,

410
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:28,880
Speaker 1: other than the information that was revealed in texts between

411
00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:32,240
Speaker 1: Mark Gooch and his brother. We find out that Mark

412
00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:36,040
Speaker 1: Gooch was raised with a connection to the Mennonite community.

413
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:40,720
Speaker 1: There seemed to be a real disdain for this faith

414
00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:44,760
Speaker 1: in this community. But there still doesn't seem to be

415
00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 1: a motive for this murder. And that's the riddle, isn't it.

416
00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:52,840
Speaker 1: As a try to make a point of up to

417
00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:56,120
Speaker 1: this point who she harmed. But what great harm has

418
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:59,840
Speaker 1: Sasha Krause wrought upon this earth that would cause her

419
00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:04,359
Speaker 1: to end up in the state. And from an investigative standpoint,

420
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:08,040
Speaker 1: I can only imagine that that's what then the police

421
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:11,600
Speaker 1: were dealing with from the beginning. When they finally did

422
00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:15,600
Speaker 1: track down Gooch and determined that he was responsible, you know,

423
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:18,960
Speaker 1: the pieces begin to kind of fall into place, and

424
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 1: he he had an intimate knowledge of the Mennonite faith

425
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:27,560
Speaker 1: and the community. He had apparently grown up around the

426
00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:31,760
Speaker 1: Mennonite community, but he chose not to join the particular

427
00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:34,879
Speaker 1: group that he was associated with and went into the

428
00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:37,199
Speaker 1: US Air Force instead, you know, And that's what I

429
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:40,399
Speaker 1: was saying earlier, that Menonites are pacifist. You're not going

430
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 1: to find them signing up to go and fight necessarily,

431
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:46,880
Speaker 1: or to join the armed forces. It's not what they do.

432
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:49,919
Speaker 1: It's not part of who they are. And so he

433
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:54,879
Speaker 1: made this decision that runs completely contrary to the life

434
00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:57,920
Speaker 1: he was brought up around. And I think that that

435
00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 1: goes to a bigger idea here. Why is it that

436
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:02,920
Speaker 1: your life is on track You're not part of the

437
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:04,640
Speaker 1: Men of Night community. Why is it that you would

438
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:08,320
Speaker 1: choose and go and completely destroy the life of someone

439
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 1: who is doing the best she possibly can and is

440
00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:14,880
Speaker 1: actually helping people. And I think that when you begin

441
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:18,400
Speaker 1: to think about motivations and and for someone that commits

442
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,480
Speaker 1: a horrible act like that, I think that you begin

443
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:24,400
Speaker 1: to do a deeper exploration of what might have been

444
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:28,920
Speaker 1: his reasoning. It took police almost two months to put

445
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:31,440
Speaker 1: together the pieces of this to track down the culprit,

446
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:37,639
Speaker 1: Mark Gooch. It was cell phone records and video surveillance.

447
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:44,080
Speaker 1: Video witnesses reported seeing a white suv outside the church

448
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:48,680
Speaker 1: where Krauss was involved and worked. We also know that

449
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:52,399
Speaker 1: his cell phone and her cell phone pinged in the

450
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:58,119
Speaker 1: same vicinities off the same towers. So these pieces of

451
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:01,400
Speaker 1: digital evidence is what it took police to put this together.

452
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:05,720
Speaker 1: And it's the whole fact that there is no apparent

453
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:11,400
Speaker 1: motive other than a grudge against a faith, except there

454
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:16,480
Speaker 1: were pieces of clothing that would have been important to

455
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:21,400
Speaker 1: a Mennonite woman that we're missing. There was no, according

456
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:25,200
Speaker 1: to the autopsy, conclusive evidence of a rape, although they

457
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:29,600
Speaker 1: did not completely release those details to pay respect to

458
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:33,000
Speaker 1: the family, but the autopsy did say that it could

459
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:35,760
Speaker 1: not be confirmed that there was a rape. Yet she

460
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:41,160
Speaker 1: had no underwear and her head covering was missing, which

461
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:44,800
Speaker 1: we know is really important to the Mennonite faith. Yeah,

462
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:48,160
Speaker 1: it is. And when you see you know, these term

463
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:50,200
Speaker 1: it and I'm probably using the wrong term, but I

464
00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:52,680
Speaker 1: term it as kind of a small bonnet, if you will,

465
00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:55,520
Speaker 1: and it covers the back of the head. They're white,

466
00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 1: their homemade, and it's probably something that's that's created with

467
00:28:59,880 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 1: a lot of affection because it's meant to symbolize something.

468
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:07,200
Speaker 1: It's meant to symbolize modesty, and that's something when you

469
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 1: begin to think about that, and you do not see

470
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:14,000
Speaker 1: women of the Mennonite faith going in public without wearing

471
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 1: a head covering. And the fact that this individual, Gooch

472
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:22,920
Speaker 1: had a knowledge of the Mennonite faith. Out of everything

473
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 1: you could have taken from her other than her life,

474
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:31,200
Speaker 1: why is it that you would essentially go after two

475
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:35,760
Speaker 1: of the most intimate pieces of clothing she possesses. You'd

476
00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:40,560
Speaker 1: mentioned earlier that Jackie that her underwear was missing, and

477
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 1: then you take this head covering away. You don't want

478
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:45,880
Speaker 1: to read too much into it, but out of everything

479
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 1: that could have been taken from her, it's almost like

480
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:51,800
Speaker 1: that there's this shaming that's going on by him of her.

481
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:56,640
Speaker 1: I just thought of something here that's kind of significant.

482
00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:00,920
Speaker 1: Her hands were bound with duct tape, and they didn't

483
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:08,320
Speaker 1: find one with one sample of DNA evidence on the

484
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:11,160
Speaker 1: surface of that duct tape, they didn't find a fingerprint.

485
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:13,360
Speaker 1: And if you look at duct tape or any kind

486
00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:16,120
Speaker 1: of tape, when you look at the attacky surface of it,

487
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 1: one of the things that happens many times in cases

488
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:22,400
Speaker 1: involving tape is that you will leave behind what's referred

489
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 1: to as an adhesive or plastic print on the surface

490
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:29,640
Speaker 1: of that adherent the adhesive side. You can't help but

491
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:32,240
Speaker 1: do that if you're touching it. Because we have friction ridges,

492
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 1: we don't have fingerprints on the ends of our fingers.

493
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:39,840
Speaker 1: We leave fingerprints behind. You have friction ridges on the

494
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 1: tips of your fingers, all right, So a fingerprint is

495
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 1: something that you leave behind. It's literally a negative image

496
00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 1: of of your friction ridges on the tips or the

497
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:54,960
Speaker 1: pads of your fingers. So when investigators and forensics experts

498
00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:58,560
Speaker 1: talk about fingerprints and they say there was so many

499
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:03,320
Speaker 1: points that match, that's what investigators are talking about. Kind

500
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:08,320
Speaker 1: of there's multiple ways to classify fingerprints. You have broad

501
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:12,440
Speaker 1: patterns which you hear about worlds, fingerprint worlds, that's a

502
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:17,200
Speaker 1: particular type of pattern. You have pocket center worlds. There's

503
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 1: these multiple classifications that you have. But when you get specific,

504
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:26,360
Speaker 1: you have these little specific identifiers that are contained within

505
00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:29,239
Speaker 1: the print that's that's left behind. Those are referred to

506
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:32,960
Speaker 1: as minutia. And you have all kinds of things that

507
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 1: are in there. You've got dots, pores, ending ridges, you

508
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:40,280
Speaker 1: have bifurcations, you have deltas. There are all these things

509
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:44,840
Speaker 1: and in in almost an infinite combination. And that's the

510
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 1: reason fingerprints have been used for so long, because they

511
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:50,920
Speaker 1: are unique to us. Even though there's never been like

512
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:56,840
Speaker 1: a definitive scientific study that says no two fingerprints are

513
00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:59,440
Speaker 1: the same. That's been the adage for years and years

514
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:01,800
Speaker 1: that there are new two fingerprints that are the same.

515
00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:05,000
Speaker 1: There have been cases though out there, famously the Madrid

516
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:09,120
Speaker 1: train bombing case, where you know fingerprints weren't mistaken for

517
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:12,520
Speaker 1: somebody else. So you have this thing that makes you

518
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 1: unique and you leave a print behind. Now, most of

519
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:19,160
Speaker 1: the time if you think about touching the non poor surface,

520
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 1: and the best example of that is like glass. The

521
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:26,920
Speaker 1: reason your fingerprint is visible on the classes because you

522
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:30,000
Speaker 1: have oil on the tips of your fingers. Okay, fatty

523
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 1: lipids are excreted through your pores in your fingers, and

524
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:37,640
Speaker 1: so you leave this pattern behind based upon the friction

525
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:41,400
Speaker 1: rich pattern you have on your fingertips, so that pattern

526
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:44,480
Speaker 1: will show up. But in this case, the oil doesn't

527
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:48,440
Speaker 1: necessarily make the difference. When you begin to talk about adhesive,

528
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:51,840
Speaker 1: it's almost like you know, when you're a kid and

529
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:54,680
Speaker 1: you're playing around with silly putty. If you take your

530
00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:58,720
Speaker 1: thumb perhaps and press it down into the silly putty

531
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:00,880
Speaker 1: and you remove it, that's what's referred to as a

532
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:04,240
Speaker 1: plastic print. That means you're literally leaving an impression behind

533
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:08,800
Speaker 1: of your finger friction ridges, and your print comes off

534
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:12,480
Speaker 1: in the putty itself. It's the same principle with tape adhesive.

535
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 1: And another thing that you'll find in tape adhesive as

536
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:21,360
Speaker 1: as well is you'll shed hair and you'll shed skin

537
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:23,560
Speaker 1: cells as well, which is where we get a touch

538
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:26,959
Speaker 1: DNA from touch DNA is only a partial sample of DNA,

539
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:30,520
Speaker 1: and it's it's because it's coming off of dead skin cells.

540
00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:34,200
Speaker 1: It's an incomplete DNA molecule. But in this case they

541
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:37,920
Speaker 1: found none of that, And this leads me to a conclusion, Jackie.

542
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:40,720
Speaker 1: It leads me to the conclusion that in this particular case,

543
00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:43,880
Speaker 1: I think that there is a high probability that Gooch

544
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:47,080
Speaker 1: probably wore gloves the entire time he was engaged that

545
00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:50,640
Speaker 1: and if in fact he did wear cloves, that goes

546
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:54,760
Speaker 1: to a broader legal issue. That means that he had

547
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:58,080
Speaker 1: an awareness. He had an awareness that he had to

548
00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:01,200
Speaker 1: impede the authority's ability to be able to track him.

549
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 1: Relative to physical evidence, he went prepared to do harm

550
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:11,319
Speaker 1: to Sasha. Prepared it is probably the right word to use,

551
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:17,160
Speaker 1: knowing that he went to an effort afterwards to hide

552
00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:22,000
Speaker 1: his movements. That night, he tried to delete the cell

553
00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 1: phone service records on his phone, the location history he

554
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:30,640
Speaker 1: had his card detailed, and he asked a friend to

555
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:36,160
Speaker 1: hold onto his twenty two caliber gun. So, as they

556
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:39,200
Speaker 1: put this case together, there may not have been a motive,

557
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:43,520
Speaker 1: but there was plenty of circumstantial evidence. There certainly was.

558
00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:46,000
Speaker 1: And as our friend Nancy Grace likes to say, you know,

559
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:49,160
Speaker 1: it's not it's not incumbent upon the court or upon

560
00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:52,479
Speaker 1: the prosecutor to prove motive. That's that's not necessarily what's

561
00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:55,200
Speaker 1: what's here, but it is the totality of the circumstances

562
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:59,920
Speaker 1: in this particular case. And another fascinating aspect of the

563
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:02,040
Speaker 1: US is that back out at the scene, you know,

564
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:04,240
Speaker 1: one of the things that we're always looking for its scene,

565
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 1: and particularly when it comes to gunfire is ejected shell cases.

566
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:10,279
Speaker 1: And you know what, they didn't find one out there.

567
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:13,040
Speaker 1: They did not find any ejected shell cases. And I

568
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:16,640
Speaker 1: can only imagine that when they showed up to process

569
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:19,040
Speaker 1: the scene where Sasha was found, that they brought a

570
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:21,640
Speaker 1: metal detector with him. I can almost guarantee it's like

571
00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:24,800
Speaker 1: standard fair now in any any kind of crime scene

572
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 1: response team, they will have a metal detector and they're

573
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:29,759
Speaker 1: going to sweep that area. Particularly once they begin to

574
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:32,080
Speaker 1: do the exam on the body and they note that

575
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:35,480
Speaker 1: she has a hole or a defect as we like

576
00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:37,600
Speaker 1: to call it, in the back of her head. That

577
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:42,040
Speaker 1: gives you an indication that she is sustained firearms related injury.

578
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:45,759
Speaker 1: At Sasha's autopsy, one of the things that they discovered,

579
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 1: I think, probably if there's something fortunate that can come

580
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:52,680
Speaker 1: out of this, was fortunately they actually recovered the projectile.

581
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:57,000
Speaker 1: Projectile was actually still there inside of her, her skull

582
00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:01,239
Speaker 1: and what we refer to as cranial vault. And the

583
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 1: reason that's fortunate is because when they finally they being

584
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:11,319
Speaker 1: the investigators, finally got their hands on Guca's weapon, they

585
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:14,839
Speaker 1: were able to marry that up with round that they

586
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:18,680
Speaker 1: recovered from Sasha's body, and there was a ballistic match.

587
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:22,400
Speaker 1: So the farm's examiner came to that conclusion within a

588
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:25,879
Speaker 1: reasonable scientific certainty. You know, lawyers have us say that

589
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:30,360
Speaker 1: we're on the stand that round was actually fired from

590
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 1: this specific weapon that was owned by Gouch. Again, that

591
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:36,720
Speaker 1: is a bit of physical, circumstantial evidence that he owns

592
00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:40,160
Speaker 1: the weapon and that that weapon more than likely brought

593
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:43,840
Speaker 1: about her death or him utilizing that weapon brought about

594
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:45,920
Speaker 1: her death. But again that brings us back to the

595
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:48,759
Speaker 1: spent cartridge. What happened to it? Did he make an

596
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:52,440
Speaker 1: attempt out there in the middle of the night. Did

597
00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:55,600
Speaker 1: he search around and find that cartridge and take it

598
00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:57,960
Speaker 1: with him and maybe dispose of it in some way? Again,

599
00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:00,640
Speaker 1: this goes to preparation. You begin to that he showed

600
00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:02,400
Speaker 1: up with gloves, he showed up with a weapon, he

601
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:05,480
Speaker 1: showed up with duct tape of all things, and took

602
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:07,439
Speaker 1: her out there in the middle of nowhere, I guess where.

603
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:10,759
Speaker 1: He just kind of thought that no one would find her,

604
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 1: but you know, she was found within a month. One

605
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 1: last note talking about Gucha's older brother, Samuel. He was

606
00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:23,279
Speaker 1: arrested after he flew to Arizona from Wisconsin to pick

607
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:27,080
Speaker 1: up that rifle from Gucha's friend, and again it was

608
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:29,560
Speaker 1: the rifle thought to be used in the killing, and

609
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:32,720
Speaker 1: he was indicted by a grand jury on a single

610
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:38,880
Speaker 1: felony charge of attempting to hinder prosecution. Mark Gooch ultimately

611
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:42,400
Speaker 1: was convicted in the kidnapping and first degree murder of

612
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:46,640
Speaker 1: Sasha Krause. He has been sentenced to life in prison.

613
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:55,120
Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body Backs