1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,880 Speaker 1: Welcome to Zero. I am Uctra Drati. This week war 2 00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 1: on a Heating Planet. Hello, upshut hi mightily. It's been 3 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:24,400 Speaker 1: six months you've been producing Zero. What's your experience being like? 4 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 2: When I tell people about this job, I say, this 5 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:29,880 Speaker 2: is a show about climate change and emissions, but I 6 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 2: think very quickly start talking about all the other topics 7 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:36,960 Speaker 2: that this show ends up touching. So we've done just 8 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:39,800 Speaker 2: in the last couple of weeks alone shows about refrigeration, 9 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:43,120 Speaker 2: and talked about tomatoes. We've talked about health policy, We've 10 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 2: talked about. 11 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:48,479 Speaker 1: Shock skins, shack skins, help farms, and electric transformers. 12 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:52,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, so there's a wide range, and that I think 13 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:55,480 Speaker 2: is one of the things that has kept this job 14 00:00:55,720 --> 00:01:00,240 Speaker 2: really interesting. Obviously, one thing we returned to a lot 15 00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:01,280 Speaker 2: is politics. 16 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:04,880 Speaker 1: Well, also because this has been such an election year, 17 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:08,319 Speaker 1: and I think we will talk about politics a lot more. 18 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:11,840 Speaker 2: And this week's episode feels particularly timely off the news 19 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:14,920 Speaker 2: we've been reading about from Germany, where the government has 20 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:19,560 Speaker 2: instituted new expanded border patrols after coming under a lot 21 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:21,320 Speaker 2: of pressure to control immigration. 22 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:24,959 Speaker 1: And it's only weeks after there was a knife attack 23 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:28,280 Speaker 1: where a Syrian man who had been denied asylum went 24 00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:29,520 Speaker 1: donn a stabbingspree. 25 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:32,960 Speaker 2: We mentioned all this because today's guest is Andrew Gilmour. 26 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:36,640 Speaker 2: He's the executive director of the Berghoff Foundation based in Berlin, 27 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:39,840 Speaker 2: and he spent thirty years with the United Nations, and 28 00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 2: he's been thinking a lot about how pressure on the 29 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 2: climate can lead directly and indirectly to more migration and 30 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 2: more conflict, particularly as the planet gets warmer. Take a listen. 31 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 3: Under even the best case scenario, there's going to be 32 00:01:56,760 --> 00:02:01,960 Speaker 3: a much higher increase of refugees and migrants coming to 33 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:04,320 Speaker 3: Western Europe and North America. But to do it in 34 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:07,520 Speaker 3: a way that then doesn't lead to such elitical reaction 35 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 3: that the far right is the beneficiary, and that's going 36 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 3: to be an extremely hard balancing lag and it will 37 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:18,239 Speaker 3: require a lot of courage on the part of politicians 38 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:23,280 Speaker 3: to start persuading populations that migrants are not a bad thing. 39 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:26,639 Speaker 1: And Andrew has distilled all this into a book it's 40 00:02:26,639 --> 00:02:29,920 Speaker 1: called The Burning Question, which both of us read. It 41 00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 1: addresses climate and conflict and asks why does it matter? 42 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:36,560 Speaker 1: What I really liked is it's a wide ranging look 43 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:39,840 Speaker 1: at this question, which, as climate journalists we've had at 44 00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:42,639 Speaker 1: the back of our mind over the past few years, 45 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:45,680 Speaker 1: especially with the wars in Ghaza and Ukraine and Sudan, 46 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:49,520 Speaker 1: and it helped me think through how exactly climate links 47 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 1: to all this. 48 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:54,519 Speaker 2: Yeah, I thought it was really interesting that the book 49 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:58,920 Speaker 2: starts looking at what took place well before this man 50 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:03,600 Speaker 2: made excel in warming that we're seeing, going back to 51 00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 2: how the al Nino effect perhaps played a cause in 52 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:11,280 Speaker 2: contributing to the French Revolution, or how climate variability led 53 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 2: to weakening the Spanish Empire and the Ottoman Empire, things 54 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:18,440 Speaker 2: that we don't really think about, where weather patterns have 55 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:24,080 Speaker 2: a direct impact on how people live and how empires 56 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:24,800 Speaker 2: rise and fall. 57 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:29,640 Speaker 1: That's right, and that's particularly interesting right now with the 58 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:32,840 Speaker 1: migration patterns and what it's doing to politics. The UN 59 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 1: estimates that nearly three million refugees will need to be 60 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:41,880 Speaker 1: resettled next year. That's from conflicts, economic crises, and climate change, 61 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:45,320 Speaker 1: and that number has gone up twenty percent. So I 62 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:48,240 Speaker 1: learned a lot from speaking to Andrew and drawing on 63 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:51,320 Speaker 1: his insights. We spoke about how much full link can 64 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 1: you really draw between climate and wars happening today and 65 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 1: what can you do to address both climate change and 66 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:15,400 Speaker 1: bring peace to the world. Andrey, you're welcome to the show, 67 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:18,599 Speaker 1: Thank you very much. So it's particularly interesting reading a 68 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:21,239 Speaker 1: book like this and speaking with you now in twenty 69 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 1: twenty four at a time when there are so many 70 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:27,279 Speaker 1: wars going on around the world in Gaza and Sudan 71 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 1: and Ukraine. But the thing that stood out to me 72 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:34,280 Speaker 1: was that few, if any conflicts in the world can 73 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 1: be shown to be caused by climate change. And yet 74 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 1: throughout the book you point out how climate change is 75 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:46,720 Speaker 1: acting as a threat multiplier, often increasing the risk of conflict. 76 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:50,920 Speaker 1: Are there any modern wars that have been directly caused 77 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:51,760 Speaker 1: by climate change? 78 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:56,200 Speaker 3: To this day, I'm not aware of any war in 79 00:04:56,360 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 3: history that has been solely caused even primarily caused by 80 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 3: climate change. However, I'm convinced and there is a large 81 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:09,719 Speaker 3: body of evidence to suggest that this is the case. 82 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:15,320 Speaker 3: Not that climate directly causes war, but that it contributes 83 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:19,160 Speaker 3: to war, that it is a major exacerbating factor, that 84 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:23,560 Speaker 3: it complicates matters, that it heightens tensions and makes conditions 85 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:27,039 Speaker 3: so hard that communities find it harder to live with 86 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:30,719 Speaker 3: one another than they did before. There are many parts 87 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 3: of the world I would say, particularly in Central Africa 88 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 3: and the Sahel region, and also parts of the Middle East, 89 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:44,720 Speaker 3: in particular Syria and Iraq, where recent increases of temperature 90 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:50,280 Speaker 3: have almost certainly played a role in making conflict worse 91 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:54,640 Speaker 3: and harder to resolve. What I think is more important, however, 92 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:58,840 Speaker 3: than the academic debate that has taken place so far 93 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:04,680 Speaker 3: regarding whether the one degree of global warming that we've 94 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:08,560 Speaker 3: seen so far has contributed much to conflict, is I 95 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 3: think the projections that the next degree, that is we're 96 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 3: heading quite fast towards reaching the next degree of global warming, 97 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:19,240 Speaker 3: will lead to more conflict. 98 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:22,080 Speaker 1: Let's look at what happened in Yemen, going back to 99 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:25,200 Speaker 1: the oil boom in Saudi Arabia of the nineteen seventies. 100 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:28,839 Speaker 1: There are so many variables involved in any conflict. Could 101 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:32,320 Speaker 1: you explain what has happened over the past few decades 102 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:34,839 Speaker 1: in Yemen and how we've ended up in a place 103 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:39,080 Speaker 1: where a terrorist group is able to hold the global 104 00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:41,400 Speaker 1: supply chain back in the Red Sea right. 105 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:45,280 Speaker 3: One of the key points of Yemen is that, quite 106 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:48,960 Speaker 3: aside from the fact that that has been growing desertification 107 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:55,960 Speaker 3: and frequent rout is also the fact that the underground aquifers, 108 00:06:56,240 --> 00:07:01,560 Speaker 3: the water supplies underneath the ground have been grown mostly overused, 109 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:06,599 Speaker 3: and paradoxically, it was the use of solar power pumps 110 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 3: for irrigation that has made things worse. That sounds almost 111 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 3: counterintuitive that something as benign as renewable energy can actually 112 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:18,640 Speaker 3: lead to worse effects of climate change, but that has happened. 113 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 3: The use of solar energy has made it easier to 114 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 3: pump water out from the agrivis, which means that the 115 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 3: reserves are now incredibly low, so much so that the 116 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:36,040 Speaker 3: viability of entire communities is at stake now. During the 117 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:38,920 Speaker 3: seventies and eighties, a number of people from the Yemen 118 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:41,119 Speaker 3: went to Saudi Arabia in the oil boom to start 119 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:45,920 Speaker 3: working from there. During those periods, a number of local 120 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:49,960 Speaker 3: terraces for farmland and villages collapsed because there was no 121 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:54,240 Speaker 3: manpower to look after them, which speeded up the erosion 122 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 3: and the collapse of local vegetation and the situation we 123 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 3: are now seeing now. The wars of the last nine 124 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:06,800 Speaker 3: years since twenty fifteen have certainly made things considerably worse 125 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 3: in terms of environmental degradation, but it's not a direct 126 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 3: impact of climate change. 127 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:15,680 Speaker 1: But are there any lessons that we can draw from. 128 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:21,640 Speaker 1: How over these five decades where there was migration because 129 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 1: of an oil boom that led to lower agriculture and 130 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:34,199 Speaker 1: thus poorer soils. Then that led to lower rainfall droughts 131 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:38,800 Speaker 1: which caused, as you say, use of pumps to draw 132 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:42,520 Speaker 1: from aquifers, and sort of this poor spiral that things 133 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:45,440 Speaker 1: get into until you get at her risk group that 134 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 1: is holding a global supply chain to account. Are there 135 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:52,480 Speaker 1: lessons that we can draw from this conflict to avoid 136 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 1: future conflict? 137 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 3: Strangely, since Yemen, despite the extent of the environmental degradation 138 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:05,560 Speaker 3: and the overuse of the water supply, I would say 139 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:09,840 Speaker 3: lessons could perhaps more easily be drawn from other countries 140 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:14,439 Speaker 3: that experienced the Arab Spring, such as Libya and Syria. 141 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 3: And what we saw there in Syria but also in 142 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:24,680 Speaker 3: Iraq was a prolonged drought which took place against a 143 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 3: backdrop of a very repressive regime in Syria, and one 144 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 3: also that was corrupt and where local farmers were already 145 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 3: in the very very dire straits indeed as a result 146 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:44,920 Speaker 3: of the desertification, meaning that their farms were no longer viable. 147 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:48,600 Speaker 3: And in fact I was living in nearby Iraq during 148 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:51,480 Speaker 3: the fighting of two thousand and six in two thousand 149 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:56,319 Speaker 3: and eight, and you could see the frequency of sandstorms 150 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 3: which people said they had never seen of such intensity 151 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:03,720 Speaker 3: in and see in their lives before. And this was 152 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:07,000 Speaker 3: actually part of a five year drought that in both 153 00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 3: Syria and Iraq came on top of serious human rights abuses, 154 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:16,440 Speaker 3: on top of really strong levels of corruption and leading 155 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:22,120 Speaker 3: to communities having to leave their houses and their abilities 156 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:25,120 Speaker 3: and moved to cities where they lived in terrible conditions 157 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:29,840 Speaker 3: and were actually ripe for discontent. And when the Islamic 158 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:33,439 Speaker 3: State burst upon the scene in both Syria and Iraq, 159 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 3: taking advantage of the discontent, it pushed them into joining 160 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:42,439 Speaker 3: the most extreme group of all, the Islamic State. And 161 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:48,079 Speaker 3: I think that is a particularly strong example of how 162 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:54,120 Speaker 3: the interplay between human rights abuses and bad governance in general, 163 00:10:54,720 --> 00:11:01,199 Speaker 3: when combined with a major ecological disaster such as emanated 164 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:04,960 Speaker 3: from the drought, that can lead to something as explosive 165 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:05,600 Speaker 3: as we saw. 166 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:10,439 Speaker 1: Now let's talk about Ukraine, because you write in the book, 167 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 1: nobody would claim that Russia's motivation for invading, occupying, and 168 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 1: seeking to eradicate the idea of Ukraine as a nation 169 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:22,520 Speaker 1: in February twenty twenty two was related to climate change 170 00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 1: directly or even indirectly. But the Ukraine world does have 171 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:30,840 Speaker 1: climate implications. 172 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:33,199 Speaker 3: Yes it does, and thank you for making that point, 173 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 3: because I would never claim that the major reason for 174 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 3: Putin deciding to invade was anything to do with that. 175 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 3: But there are certainly a number of implications, one of 176 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:49,800 Speaker 3: which was the example the rocketing increased spiral of oil 177 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:55,160 Speaker 3: prices as a result, which led to a positive result 178 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:58,800 Speaker 3: for once it led to a greater determination to find 179 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 3: renewable energies as a cheaper source of fuel. Both Gaza 180 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:07,960 Speaker 3: and Ukraine have very much increased the divide between the 181 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:13,520 Speaker 3: developed world and the lesser developing countries, and this has 182 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:18,599 Speaker 3: also led to more difficulties coming up in climate negotiations. 183 00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:22,320 Speaker 3: And this has taken even further when it comes to 184 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:25,679 Speaker 3: example the Russian veto of measures at the United Nations 185 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 3: that could resist climate insecurity. 186 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 1: And you end the chapter on Ukraine by saying the 187 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:39,000 Speaker 1: entire field of climate insecurity has therefore suddenly taken on 188 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:43,880 Speaker 1: a new and additional meaning, even if policymakers don't seem 189 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:49,200 Speaker 1: to have grasped it yet. But sitting here knowing what 190 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:52,200 Speaker 1: we know about climate and what it's going to do 191 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:57,240 Speaker 1: to the planet with greater certainty than ever before. It 192 00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:00,920 Speaker 1: is something that militaries have started to think about, at 193 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:04,880 Speaker 1: least over the past decade or even two decades, and 194 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:08,960 Speaker 1: this phrase that climate change is a threat multiplier is 195 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:13,320 Speaker 1: something that is now talked in security circles. So have 196 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 1: you seen that open the door for better planning and 197 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:18,560 Speaker 1: policy making in the future. 198 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:25,000 Speaker 3: Yes, I definitely have, and I would encourage this, but 199 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:30,480 Speaker 3: not everybody does. Indeed, the entire expression climate security is 200 00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 3: a phrase that some people shy away from because they 201 00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:39,480 Speaker 3: believe that even using that phrase encourages a security first 202 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:43,640 Speaker 3: approach to what is not fundamentally a security issue, and 203 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:46,320 Speaker 3: I would take issue with that. I think there is 204 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:50,959 Speaker 3: a strong argument, for example, either using the United Nation 205 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:55,360 Speaker 3: Security Council to get involved in matters relating to climate 206 00:13:55,440 --> 00:14:00,080 Speaker 3: change and their impact on dec security, but also involving militaries, 207 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 3: and they can be extremely positive and I myself saw 208 00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:07,080 Speaker 3: that in Iraq during the war, where for reasons that 209 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 3: weren't necessarily connected to fear of climate change in general, 210 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 3: but for a very practical desire to save the lives 211 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 3: of US troops. There was a very important initiative that 212 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 3: took place amongst the military who because they needed to 213 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 3: provide diesel fuel to their forward operating basis in large 214 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:33,560 Speaker 3: quantities in order to help their soldiers live under bearable 215 00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:38,280 Speaker 3: conditions in the desert using air conditioning. But their great 216 00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 3: concern was that their fuel convoys were being targeted to 217 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:48,160 Speaker 3: ambush by groups connected to al Qaeda and later the 218 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:52,760 Speaker 3: Islamic States. So they took the perfectly sensible decision that 219 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:56,040 Speaker 3: to reduce the number of convoys and thereby to reduce 220 00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:59,040 Speaker 3: the number of deaths of people on those convoys, they 221 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 3: would start using solar energy. And because they are so 222 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:07,720 Speaker 3: well resourced, militaries can often do things at scale on 223 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:11,560 Speaker 3: a way that civilian agencies do not have the capacity 224 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:15,600 Speaker 3: to do so. So Yes, indeed, I've seen in many instances, 225 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:19,360 Speaker 3: and the US military is clearly whatever that the political 226 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:22,840 Speaker 3: views of the people concerned. They seem to be very 227 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:26,760 Speaker 3: well aware of the climate implications of what can happen 228 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:29,440 Speaker 3: to them as a result of example, rising sea levels, 229 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 3: and they know that obviously their basis that can become 230 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:36,200 Speaker 3: underwaterhare in a few years time, are going to be 231 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:40,520 Speaker 3: completely useless. So there is definitely hope in my view 232 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:43,120 Speaker 3: from engaging with the militaries. 233 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 1: And so when it comes to potential solutions that would 234 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:52,920 Speaker 1: try and tackle this nexus of climate conflict and migration, 235 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 1: there are two sets of solutions. One is, obviously we 236 00:15:57,000 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 1: have to tackle climate change by reducing emissions, and that 237 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 1: is an example you talked about, which is militaries around 238 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 1: the world which are huge users of fossil fuels can 239 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 1: start to reduce their own greenose gas impact. But then 240 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:13,560 Speaker 1: there is a whole set of other solutions that can 241 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 1: be applied on the policy making on climate adaptation, on 242 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:22,560 Speaker 1: environmental peace building that you mentioned that would allow for 243 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:28,080 Speaker 1: reduction in conflicts. Could you talk through these solutions, because 244 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:31,520 Speaker 1: you have mentioned those in your book, but they all 245 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:34,120 Speaker 1: seem to be at quite an early stage. 246 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:38,360 Speaker 3: That is correct, They are indeed at an early stage, 247 00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:40,960 Speaker 3: and I will indeed go through some of them, one 248 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:45,520 Speaker 3: of which is the relatively new practice of environmental peace building. 249 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:50,360 Speaker 3: This I think has great potential, but it has only 250 00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:54,320 Speaker 3: been tried in relatively few places to date. It is 251 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 3: based on the thinking that you might be able to 252 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 3: resolve tension between communities if you don't go straight for 253 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:07,359 Speaker 3: the most important issues that has divided them, but actually 254 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:12,120 Speaker 3: focus on some lower hanging fruit, as it were, first 255 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:16,159 Speaker 3: of all, teaching them about the impact of climate change 256 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:20,560 Speaker 3: and how it affects not just them but other peoples. 257 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:23,439 Speaker 3: They know that each time they have a new drought, 258 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:26,360 Speaker 3: each time there is a flash flood, that there may 259 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 3: be an increase in recruitment into extremist radical groups, but 260 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:33,320 Speaker 3: they don't necessarily know that it is even affecting the 261 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:35,920 Speaker 3: whole of their country. I'm talking about places like Somalia 262 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:39,320 Speaker 3: now or Iraq and many other places actually also in 263 00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 3: the Sahel Malei, chad Nisia and places. Many of them 264 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:46,480 Speaker 3: of course, are concluding that it is no longer possible 265 00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:50,240 Speaker 3: living in areas that are so exposed to extreme heat 266 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:54,800 Speaker 3: and desertification that they have in some cases decided that 267 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:56,959 Speaker 3: there is no point even trying to live there. So 268 00:17:57,000 --> 00:18:00,080 Speaker 3: they're going to try to migrate either within their their 269 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:04,280 Speaker 3: own country to cities or further down the road, presumably 270 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:08,600 Speaker 3: to other countries and other continents. So to break that that, 271 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:11,040 Speaker 3: one has to be able to start coming up with 272 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:14,400 Speaker 3: measures in the countries that they are leaving to persuade 273 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:16,760 Speaker 3: them that there's actually a future there, and I think 274 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:20,480 Speaker 3: that environmental peace building and the development measures that would 275 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:22,720 Speaker 3: come with them could be a way of doing that. 276 00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:27,479 Speaker 1: And could you talk through the success stories, even if 277 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:29,200 Speaker 1: they are at a small scale right now. 278 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:33,400 Speaker 3: Yes, my own organization, the Bako Foundation, of example, we've 279 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:36,520 Speaker 3: been working for three years in Somalia and a bit 280 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:40,760 Speaker 3: less in Iraq, precisely in the conditions that I've been 281 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:46,720 Speaker 3: talking about, working with communities that are very much at 282 00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:50,320 Speaker 3: odds with some of their neighbors, whether it's for ethnic reasons, 283 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:53,800 Speaker 3: or for sectarian reasons, or for reasons of competition over 284 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:58,120 Speaker 3: natural resources. But getting them to sit down together and 285 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:03,679 Speaker 3: confronting some of their problems and seeing that actually cooperation 286 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:07,760 Speaker 3: on these issues can actually lead to progress. There, we 287 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:10,640 Speaker 3: are finding successes. The common solutions could be, for example, 288 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:15,359 Speaker 3: a solar powered irrigation scheme. It could be joint management 289 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:20,160 Speaker 3: of a wildlife serve, it could be a desalination project. 290 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:24,640 Speaker 3: We've been doing that most recently in the south of Iraq, 291 00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 3: where working with people who have been forced to leave 292 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:33,240 Speaker 3: their farmlands and move into urban areas, where as in 293 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:35,439 Speaker 3: many other parts of the world the urban areas do 294 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:38,639 Speaker 3: not welcome Suddenly a large influx of income is so 295 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:42,640 Speaker 3: very major tensions and violence has broken out between them, 296 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:45,919 Speaker 3: but we are finding that we're able to help resolve 297 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:46,640 Speaker 3: those tensions. 298 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:49,679 Speaker 1: So a lot of the conflicts that start tend to 299 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:53,240 Speaker 1: start because of resources, either its land or its water. 300 00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:58,520 Speaker 1: Now those are cause for creating conflict, but could they 301 00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:02,000 Speaker 1: be used to find ways to build peace? 302 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:10,680 Speaker 3: Yes, I mean what are the main drivers of displacement? 303 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:15,080 Speaker 3: The displacement that is caused as a result of both 304 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:20,679 Speaker 3: conflict and climate change is any country's ability or inability 305 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:24,080 Speaker 3: to feed itself. So I think investing in forms of 306 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 3: agriculture that could be better suited to a change in 307 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:32,880 Speaker 3: climate would help enable that adaptation and thereby remove sources 308 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:36,400 Speaker 3: of tension and also the need to seek life elsewhere. 309 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:39,560 Speaker 3: One example that I think has a lot of promise 310 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 3: is known as the system of rice intensification, which is 311 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:46,960 Speaker 3: an example of targeted as system. It's an agro ecological 312 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 3: approach used in places like Afghanistan or Nigeria and Mali, 313 00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:57,399 Speaker 3: which can include tripling grain yield, enhancing incomes, and helping 314 00:20:57,440 --> 00:21:00,720 Speaker 3: water conservation as well as lowering meat emission. So it 315 00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 3: has many advantages, but in this particular context. By providing 316 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 3: higher incomes to farmers, it can help people a stay 317 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:15,159 Speaker 3: on their lands and feel less of an imperative to 318 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:16,879 Speaker 3: compete with their neighbors. 319 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:22,800 Speaker 1: After the break, Andrew and I talk about how some 320 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:27,480 Speaker 1: politicians are turning refugees into a wedge issue. If you're 321 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:30,240 Speaker 1: finding this episode insightful, please take a moment to rate 322 00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:34,440 Speaker 1: and review the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and even YouTube. 323 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:45,439 Speaker 1: It helps other listeners find the show. One of the 324 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:47,840 Speaker 1: stats that stood out to me from your book was 325 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:50,040 Speaker 1: that as of May twenty twenty two, there are about 326 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:53,919 Speaker 1: one hundred million people who'd been displaced from their countries 327 00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:56,840 Speaker 1: as a result of many things, but about a third 328 00:21:56,880 --> 00:22:01,760 Speaker 1: of those were because of climate events. Now, with climate 329 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:05,200 Speaker 1: change on the March, we are likely to see that 330 00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:09,840 Speaker 1: number grow quite rapidly, and it comes at a time 331 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:15,160 Speaker 1: when evil actors, bad actors, politicians can actually use that 332 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:19,160 Speaker 1: kind of event to their advantage. You write about how 333 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:23,440 Speaker 1: Russia used its influence over Belarus in twenty twenty one 334 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:28,400 Speaker 1: to push migrants from Afghanistan and Iraq into Poland, Lithuania, 335 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 1: and Latvia in a way that was engineered to drum 336 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:36,040 Speaker 1: up fear of migrants and destabilize the politics in those democracies. 337 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:39,720 Speaker 1: Will we see more of this happening as the planet 338 00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:41,080 Speaker 1: is being warmed. 339 00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:44,280 Speaker 3: Yes, I think we will. We are seeing a number 340 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:48,360 Speaker 3: of very allowing trends at the moment. One, we are 341 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:53,240 Speaker 3: currently living through a period of more conflicts than at 342 00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 3: any time since nineteen forty five. It's estimated that there 343 00:22:56,840 --> 00:23:01,680 Speaker 3: are fifty nine separate conflicts going on at the moment. Secondly, 344 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:06,680 Speaker 3: we are seeing an ever increasing rate of global warming 345 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:10,280 Speaker 3: as new records seem to be being reached every week 346 00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:17,320 Speaker 3: almost And Thirdly, we are seeing the growth of right 347 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:22,040 Speaker 3: wing parties in the United States and Europe that are 348 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:27,080 Speaker 3: anti immigrants but also to climate change skeptics or more 349 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:31,119 Speaker 3: often deniers. So it's like a perverse irony in a 350 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:37,320 Speaker 3: way that the same people who prevent governments from doing 351 00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:43,840 Speaker 3: major measures to help combat climate change are those that 352 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:48,440 Speaker 3: then profit from what they call a flood of migrants 353 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:51,719 Speaker 3: coming in who have been forced to come because the 354 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:55,359 Speaker 3: North hasn't actually taken proper measures to reduce emissions and 355 00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:59,679 Speaker 3: do major adaptation measures. So I think these are very 356 00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:03,520 Speaker 3: run trends, and the key is to find ways to 357 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:06,399 Speaker 3: understand that there is going to be under even the 358 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:09,480 Speaker 3: best case scenario, there's going to be a much higher 359 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:15,320 Speaker 3: increase of refugees and migrants coming to Western Europe and 360 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:17,199 Speaker 3: North America. But to do it in a way that 361 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:21,280 Speaker 3: then doesn't lead to such a political reaction that the 362 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:24,080 Speaker 3: far right is the beneficiary, and that's going to be 363 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:27,680 Speaker 3: an extremely hard balancing to act, and it will require 364 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:31,119 Speaker 3: a lot of courage on the part of politicians to 365 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:36,000 Speaker 3: start persuading populations that migrants are not a bad thing, 366 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:40,280 Speaker 3: that actually, in an era where there's actually a population 367 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:44,920 Speaker 3: decline in Western countries and indeed many other countries, immigrants 368 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 3: are going to play a very important role in keeping 369 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:49,600 Speaker 3: economies and societies flourishing. 370 00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:54,119 Speaker 1: Now, I'm a reporter who's been covering climate change and 371 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:58,200 Speaker 1: impacts and solutions for the past six seven years, and 372 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:02,240 Speaker 1: what I have noticed is that as a person who 373 00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:05,600 Speaker 1: understands the world, who is learning about the world, climate 374 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:08,800 Speaker 1: change is forcing me to be empathetic in ways that 375 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:13,320 Speaker 1: I had not been empathetic in the past. You have, 376 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:15,920 Speaker 1: of course, worked in all sorts of areas. You've worked 377 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:19,359 Speaker 1: in conflict areas and human rights, and now you're focused 378 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:24,719 Speaker 1: on climate. Are you seeing that change come through in 379 00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:29,320 Speaker 1: people you meet, is their higher level of global empathy 380 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:33,960 Speaker 1: being grown because these climate events are global, and there 381 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:36,879 Speaker 1: are all these interconnections that you're able to draw from 382 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:41,439 Speaker 1: human rights to conflict to resources in the work that 383 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:41,679 Speaker 1: you do. 384 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:49,639 Speaker 3: I certainly see that people younger than me I'm sixty 385 00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:53,760 Speaker 3: years old, that people twenty thirty forty years younger than 386 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:59,560 Speaker 3: me are much more open to compassion and empathy for 387 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:05,200 Speaker 3: victims of human rights in general, but particularly those forced 388 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:07,399 Speaker 3: to leave their homes as a result of climate change, 389 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:11,720 Speaker 3: because their environmental awareness is so much higher than those 390 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:15,320 Speaker 3: people who are nearer my age. And in that sense, 391 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:17,920 Speaker 3: it is one of the areas of optimism that we 392 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:19,080 Speaker 3: can indeed point. 393 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:22,200 Speaker 1: To now when we talk about climate solutions, which is 394 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:24,639 Speaker 1: what I do day in and day out, there is 395 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:30,159 Speaker 1: a tendency among many climate activists that holds back some 396 00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:32,960 Speaker 1: of the climate solutions because they want it to be 397 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 1: done in a perfect way. But when I take a 398 00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:38,920 Speaker 1: step back, and I'm taking a really big step back, 399 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 1: I look at how the world has changed over the 400 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:46,359 Speaker 1: past century, say, and I look at trends which show progress. 401 00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:51,280 Speaker 1: So when the Spanish flu happened in the early twentieth century, 402 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:54,560 Speaker 1: you know, fifty million to one hundred million people died. 403 00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 1: We had a similar event in the COVID nineteen pandemic, 404 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:03,400 Speaker 1: and of course we still had many millions of people die. 405 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:07,359 Speaker 1: It was nowhere close to the disaster that was the 406 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:10,760 Speaker 1: Spanish globe because of technology but also because of our 407 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:14,200 Speaker 1: ability to communicate at scale. Does not mean there was 408 00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:18,800 Speaker 1: no disinformation, but there has been progress. And so when 409 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:23,040 Speaker 1: I look at climate conflict and migration. While reading your book, 410 00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:26,879 Speaker 1: it felt to me that many of the solutions are there, 411 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:30,160 Speaker 1: they are sometimes too hard. Trying to get them all 412 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:32,159 Speaker 1: to line up in the perfect way is likely to 413 00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:38,359 Speaker 1: be really difficult. Given there are so many variables involved 414 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:42,880 Speaker 1: in getting these solutions to work, I have greater appreciation 415 00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:47,080 Speaker 1: for how difficult it's going to be. So rather than 416 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:51,399 Speaker 1: trying to find a perfect solution, do you think the 417 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:54,600 Speaker 1: goal is now just to be less wrong, to not 418 00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:58,679 Speaker 1: commit as many mistakes as we did on environment and 419 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:02,439 Speaker 1: on human rights in the pert and does hopefully that 420 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:04,360 Speaker 1: will lead to fewer conflicts. 421 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:09,480 Speaker 3: Well, I worked for the United Nations for thirty years. 422 00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:12,199 Speaker 3: I think I can safely say that quite early on 423 00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:14,760 Speaker 3: in my career I lost any hope that I might 424 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:18,879 Speaker 3: have had that there are perfect solutions for anything, so 425 00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:23,280 Speaker 3: I certainly don't look for perfect solutions. A great UN 426 00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:25,800 Speaker 3: Secretary journal Dicomer Show, once said, the purpose of the 427 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:29,800 Speaker 3: UN isn't to take people to heaven, is to save 428 00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:33,560 Speaker 3: them from hell, and and there are many variants of that. 429 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:36,840 Speaker 3: If you can make people's lives a little bit less awful, 430 00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:40,720 Speaker 3: then you've achieved your job. Your job isn't necessary to 431 00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:44,160 Speaker 3: bring world peace, it is to reduce conflict. Frankly, when 432 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:46,600 Speaker 3: I started getting interested in this about twenty years ago, 433 00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:50,400 Speaker 3: I would have been very surprised to see the level 434 00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:54,880 Speaker 3: of climate denihalism that there still is, whether it's in 435 00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:58,080 Speaker 3: the aspects of the US press or the British press 436 00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:01,800 Speaker 3: such as the Daily Telegraph, or any paths of Germany 437 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:04,480 Speaker 3: and elsewhere as well. I didn't think that would happen. 438 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 3: I thought that given the unanimity with which the world 439 00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:11,760 Speaker 3: science community recognizes the issues, the fact that there is 440 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:16,000 Speaker 3: such anhalism is surprising to me. But all it shows 441 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:19,360 Speaker 3: is that the struggle is going to be even harder 442 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:22,640 Speaker 3: than one expected it to be, and so whatever one 443 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:25,360 Speaker 3: can do, there are things that we can try to do. 444 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:30,800 Speaker 3: For example, working on finance. Do you know Extraordinarily, according 445 00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:34,880 Speaker 3: to a UNTP report a couple of years ago, highly 446 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:37,840 Speaker 3: fragile countries, the most fragile countries such as for example, 447 00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:43,040 Speaker 3: Soudan and Iraq, receive only one percent but capita of 448 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:46,720 Speaker 3: the funds going to more stable countries. And one understands 449 00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:50,760 Speaker 3: in a way because investors need stability or that's what 450 00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:55,240 Speaker 3: they cover it. But there are ways you can encourage 451 00:29:56,080 --> 00:30:00,000 Speaker 3: private investors from richer countries to start investing by providing 452 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:04,080 Speaker 3: in guarantees so that you can indemnify the private sector 453 00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:07,360 Speaker 3: for some of the potential losses in high risk settings, 454 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:10,280 Speaker 3: because we have to change that figure. If only one 455 00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:13,400 Speaker 3: percent per capita is going to the most vulnerable climate 456 00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:17,440 Speaker 3: and conflict affected countries compared to others, then we have 457 00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:20,040 Speaker 3: a major problem because these are the countries that are 458 00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:23,360 Speaker 3: on the front line of climate change, they are on 459 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:25,600 Speaker 3: the front line of conflict, and they're the ones who 460 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:29,320 Speaker 3: are going to be sending forth their populations who can 461 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:32,640 Speaker 3: no longer live there. So we have to find ways, 462 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:34,920 Speaker 3: and there are ways out there. People have come up 463 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:39,000 Speaker 3: with very creative solutions. Gordon Brown, the former UK Prime Minister, 464 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:42,240 Speaker 3: has come up with a number of areas relating to finance, 465 00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:45,440 Speaker 3: for example, and the last but one cop there was 466 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:48,920 Speaker 3: the Loss and Damage Agreement that can help mitigate the 467 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:51,840 Speaker 3: major climate in justice, whereby it is the countries that 468 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:55,840 Speaker 3: don't admit that are on the front line of climate change. 469 00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:58,280 Speaker 3: So there are many ways, but it is definitely going 470 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:01,400 Speaker 3: to be very very hard road, and we do not 471 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:02,520 Speaker 3: have that much time either. 472 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:16,000 Speaker 1: Thank you, Andrew, Thank you very much. Thank you for 473 00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:19,000 Speaker 1: listening to Zero. And now for the sound of the week. 474 00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:26,640 Speaker 1: That's the sound of a container ship leading port, probably 475 00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:30,840 Speaker 1: carrying your next Amazon order. Small things that all adapt 476 00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:34,360 Speaker 1: to big impacts on the planet. If you like this episode, 477 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:36,560 Speaker 1: please take a moment to rate and review the show 478 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:40,160 Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Share this episode with a 479 00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:44,400 Speaker 1: friend or with a peacebuilder. You can get in touch 480 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:47,440 Speaker 1: at zero pod at Bloomberg dot net. Zero's producer is 481 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:50,520 Speaker 1: Mighty li Rao, Bloomberg's head a podcast is Sage Bowman 482 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:53,920 Speaker 1: and head of Talk is Brendan Newnan. Our theme music 483 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:58,120 Speaker 1: is composed by Wonderly Special Thanks to John fra Kira 484 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:02,200 Speaker 1: Bindrim and Monique Molima. I am extracty back soon.