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Speaker 1: This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,

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Speaker 1: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,

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Speaker 1: it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, where we talk

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Speaker 2: true crime all the time. It is Wednesday, January twenty eighth.

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Speaker 2: Can you have only a tomp Day? Hump Day is

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Speaker 2: finally here. You made us, We made it and listen.

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Speaker 2: It wouldn't be True Crime Tonight if we didn't have

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Speaker 2: what Courtney.

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Speaker 3: Stag night aheadlines. That's right.

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Speaker 2: So tonight we have a lot of stories, but here's

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Speaker 2: the headlines. We have the accused murderer, Brendan Benfield, he

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Speaker 2: takes the stand in his defense in the Awe Pair

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Speaker 2: murder trial. And we have the first survivor, she's given

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Speaker 2: testimony disturbing testimony in the Alexander Brothers trial. And a

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Speaker 2: New Jersey man is accused of killing his brother's family

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Speaker 2: trying to cover it up. Plus, I'm so happy Jarrett Farantino,

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Speaker 2: our favorite trial attorney, is here. He's going to join

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Speaker 2: us and breakdown all of our including your burning legal questions.

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Speaker 2: I'm so excited for that because I have a list

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Speaker 2: for Jarrett that I keep every week.

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Speaker 3: We've been running a long list.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so he'll be he'll be here for a minute,

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Speaker 4: we have he'll be here for a hot minute.

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Speaker 5: As like, please stop, I've got so much to write down,

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Speaker 5: slow down.

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Speaker 6: But let's let's not waste any time. Courtney lead us off.

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Speaker 4: All right, So we're going to get right into the

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Speaker 4: A pair murder trials. So Brendan Banfield, he's the defendant

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Speaker 4: in this trial and he took the stand in his

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Speaker 4: own defense that happens today in Fairfax County, Virginia. Unsurprisingly,

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Speaker 4: he is denying all allegations that he killed his wife,

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Speaker 4: Christine Banfield and a stranger victim, Joseph Ryan. So we're

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Speaker 4: going to talk get into Joseph Ryan a little bit

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Speaker 4: more in detail as a human later, because you know,

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Speaker 4: he's a man who lost his life.

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Speaker 6: He was villainized, I know, I know.

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Speaker 4: So the So first we're gonna do a little bit

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Speaker 4: of the testimony. So prosecutors, they've alleged that the murders

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Speaker 4: were part of a calculated plan so that Brendan Banfield

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Speaker 4: could remove his wife Christine from his life situation to

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Speaker 4: begin a new life with the family's up pair Juliana

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Speaker 4: Paris Magahalis. And if you remember, Juliana took a plea

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Speaker 4: deal down to manslaughter and has been testifying against Banfield.

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Speaker 2: Right, it's the tale as old as time, right, I

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Speaker 2: mean it.

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Speaker 5: Really the mistress and the.

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Speaker 6: I could not be in a more cliche of himself

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Speaker 6: in my opinion, so true, agreed, right, exactly right. So

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Speaker 6: what did you say?

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Speaker 4: You know, he just he roundly and strongly rejects the

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Speaker 4: idea that he orchestrated the killings. He has called the

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Speaker 4: accusations quote absolutely crazy. He said that he thinks it's

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Speaker 4: an absurd line of questioning for something that's not serious,

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Speaker 4: that a plan was made to get rid of my wife.

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Speaker 4: And yeah, he repeated several times, just this, it is

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Speaker 4: just crazy. And what he did in his presentation at

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Speaker 4: the trial or his you know, his testimony, was he

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Speaker 4: walked the jury through the morning of the murders, which

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Speaker 4: was February twenty fourth, twenty twenty three.

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Speaker 3: And according to Banfield, he.

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Speaker 4: Said he left his daughter at home with the au

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Speaker 4: pair and that he stopped on McDonald's on the way

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Speaker 4: to work when he got a call from the au

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Speaker 4: pair and he said she sounded very stressed. He then

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Speaker 4: reached out to try and reach his wife, Christine Banfield

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Speaker 4: and got her voicemail, and then returned home because of

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Speaker 4: that phone call from the pair. And then and this,

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Speaker 4: it always gets dicey when people start talking about victims.

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Speaker 5: I feel like, yeah, speaks me uncomfortable.

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Speaker 3: It does.

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Speaker 4: So he went on to say that both he and

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Speaker 4: his wife they both had affair and that she was

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Speaker 4: aware of his and he was aware of hers, which

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Speaker 4: maybe is the case. And he also emphasized he loves

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Speaker 4: his family so much, and you know, he loves his

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Speaker 4: daughter more than anything, which, of course, if what's alleged

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Speaker 4: is true, then his wife's mother is dead. He potentially

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Speaker 4: Banfield will be imprisoned. Right and then the all pair

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Speaker 4: who this very young daughter was strongly in touched to.

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Speaker 4: She's out of her life as well.

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Speaker 2: Right, wo just ripped her tire entire life to shreds.

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Speaker 2: That's not much you love her, right right?

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Speaker 3: Exactly?

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Speaker 5: Yeah?

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Speaker 4: And Banfield also he described the bond between his wife

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Speaker 4: Christine and their daughter as very tight and.

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Speaker 3: Said that their separation was tragic.

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Speaker 4: Which if again he is guilty, then it's just villain

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Speaker 4: us to stand there and say, oh, it's so tragic

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Speaker 4: and comment like that. I mean, I don't know where

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Speaker 4: the humanity comes. And regarding the relationship with the oppair,

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Speaker 4: he really downplayed it, and he testified it had only

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Speaker 4: been a couple of weeks old, sort of six to

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Speaker 4: eight weeks old at the time of the murders, and

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Speaker 4: denied any and all premeditation.

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Speaker 2: Wait, he's saying that he was only in a relationship

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Speaker 2: with her prior to the murders for about six to

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Speaker 2: eight weeks and it wasn't like a serial thing.

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Speaker 6: Is that what he said?

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Speaker 2: Like, that's correct? Okay, Okay, So yes, I was having

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Speaker 2: an affair. My wife was too. We were both aware

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Speaker 2: of them. Yep, got over it, moved on with our lives.

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Speaker 2: Then the up pair moves in in about six to

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Speaker 2: eight weeks before her murder. We we had it, we

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Speaker 2: started having an affair with the upair or I started

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Speaker 2: having an affair with the up pair, right, Yes, I

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Speaker 2: just want to follow the timeline, right, Okay.

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Speaker 5: But he's kind of downplaying I guess how right the

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Speaker 5: affair is. But my immediate argument with that is I

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Speaker 5: still see those photos that were switched out of the

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Speaker 5: white right on the bedroom table.

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Speaker 2: Right, So, for those who don't know, after the murders,

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Speaker 2: the basically the au pair moved into the primary bedroom, right.

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Speaker 2: And on a subsequent visit that the police made a

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Speaker 2: few months after the murders, they discovered that she had

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Speaker 2: moved into the rooms because on the nightstand and dressers

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Speaker 2: and whatnot were photos of the au pair and Brendan

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Speaker 2: Banfield together, and like her clothes were in the closet

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Speaker 2: and things like that. So she had basically taken over

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Speaker 2: pretty much. I don't want to say the identity of

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Speaker 2: the wife, but her life slid right into her life

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Speaker 2: slid right. So but it wasn't that serious, right, according

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Speaker 2: to she's she's only sleeping, you know, he's allowing her

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Speaker 2: to sleep, you know, in his dead wife's area, right.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and replace you know, his deceased wife's pictures with pictures.

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Speaker 3: Of them and the items.

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Speaker 4: And this pill feels a little hard to swallow, right,

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Speaker 4: I just.

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Speaker 3: Wanted to.

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Speaker 6: Setting that up that great, Okay, So.

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Speaker 4: We actually we have an audio clip, and so Banfield

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Speaker 4: described how the relationship developed after the all pair shared

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Speaker 4: frustrations with dating apps.

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Speaker 3: So we'll have a listen Juliana showed me.

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Speaker 7: Quite a few screenshots of her of her dating app.

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Speaker 7: I believe it was Hinge and the people that were

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Speaker 7: in the people that were in the Hinge app all

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Speaker 7: had similar names to me. Their names were Brendan and

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Speaker 7: Brandon and Brennan, and these were people that she had

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Speaker 7: matched with on the app. We spent maybe an hour

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Speaker 7: and a half or two hours talking about some random things,

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Speaker 7: but also about about her dating history. During this time,

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Speaker 7: she when she was talking about different people, she was

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Speaker 7: described people that she was interested in, people that were taller,

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Speaker 7: people that were older, and it appeared to me that

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Speaker 7: she was basically describing.

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Speaker 5: Me, Oh so almost. It feels like he's he's kind

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Speaker 5: of setting the stage for maybe she was seducing me.

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Speaker 5: She's the one that came after me. Look at what

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Speaker 5: you can still sit.

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Speaker 6: No, I'm not interested. You're my all pair.

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Speaker 2: You're taking care of my children, you know what I mean,

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Speaker 2: like my wife, and I trust you. You're this is

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Speaker 2: a you're crossing a boundary. Why are they talking about

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Speaker 2: her her dating app?

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Speaker 6: It's weird to me.

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Speaker 4: I can't get the picture of the two of them,

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Speaker 4: Banfield and the nanny sitting in a tub together out

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Speaker 4: of my head, I know.

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Speaker 2: Because there's a photo she was posting to her snapchat

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Speaker 2: right with him, kind of like, right, she took a

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Speaker 2: photo of them in their bathtub after the murders, right,

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Speaker 2: and she is just, you know, all cozy. But where

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Speaker 2: are they having this conversation? Are they sitting on the

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Speaker 2: couch together? Like what's going on?

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Speaker 6: Kind of?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it's just where's where's the wife at that moment?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 3: Where's wife?

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Speaker 5: Business? Up asleep while we're having this one on one privatezation?

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Speaker 6: Busy working who knows?

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Speaker 2: Very odd and listen, I understand the frustration with dating apps,

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Speaker 2: but it's easy too, you know, when somebody's like kind

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Speaker 2: of coming on to you a little bit, and I

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Speaker 2: think it's easy to be like, no, not interested, right,

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Speaker 2: Like this is not a anyway?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, no, no. So his testimony.

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Speaker 4: Banfield's testimony will continue tomorrow.

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Speaker 6: I can't wait to hear what he says tomorrow. Courtney,

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Speaker 6: thank you.

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Speaker 2: So this is your crime tonight an iHeart Radio, we're

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Speaker 2: talking true crime all the time. We're right in the

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Speaker 2: middle of talking about the alle Pair murder trial. You

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Speaker 2: want to weigh in, Download the iHeart Radio up and

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Speaker 2: leave us little talk back and we're gonna go to

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Speaker 2: one right now.

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Speaker 8: Hello, fabulous ladies, this is Eugenia from Washington, DC. You

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Speaker 8: know in the Banfield trial. I wonder if you can

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Speaker 8: tell us more about the guy John who was shot

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Speaker 8: the victim. I don't hear anything about him? What about

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Speaker 8: his family? What about you know who he was and

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Speaker 8: the laws at that family is experiencing.

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Speaker 2: Oh hey, Didna, you are carving your way to my heart.

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Speaker 2: One hundred percent agree. I think this poor guy was villainized.

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Speaker 2: I feel so bad for his family. Oh what do

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Speaker 2: we know about him?

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Speaker 5: Absolutely?

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Speaker 4: Name that's right, and that's actually what makes it particularly poignant.

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Speaker 4: So first of all, thank you for asking because it

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Speaker 4: is so important. And you said John, because this man,

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Speaker 4: Joseph Ryan, has been only a footnote in this whole thing.

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Speaker 4: And he was murdered, and he was murdered. The man

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Speaker 4: is dead and set up.

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Speaker 6: Yes, he was murdered and set up.

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Speaker 4: Yes, absolutely, And his mother had things I was.

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Speaker 3: This is tough. So his mother, her name is DeAndre Fisher.

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Speaker 4: She described him as wise beyond his years and talks

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Speaker 4: about when he was a baby, he was such a

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Speaker 4: smart baby, and as a grown up he just he

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Speaker 4: loves sports. He was into jiu jitsu, and he was

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Speaker 4: a passionate man about social justice and animals, which I know,

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Speaker 4: body is I like this guy?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 4: I know?

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Speaker 3: And and this got me.

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Speaker 4: She said, you know, he would go to a pound

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Speaker 4: or an animal rescue place ask for the oldest, ugliest dog,

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Speaker 4: and they were always little dogs and and that's yeah,

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Speaker 4: all my dogs are little and legged.

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Speaker 6: Or do you know, like it just nobody else wanted, right.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, And and then she went on to

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Speaker 4: say that just that how close of a relationship they had,

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Speaker 4: and he was a grown man, and that he would

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Speaker 4: call all the time and want to talk for hours

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Speaker 4: into the night, and says that she was fortunate for

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Speaker 4: their relationship.

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Speaker 3: And yeah, he died. I mean, he just seems like

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Speaker 3: a lovely human being.

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Speaker 4: And she describes what you would expect from the moment

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Speaker 4: she got the call from the detective. She says, I

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Speaker 4: could hear my own voice screaming. It was almost like

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Speaker 4: it was outside of my body, hearing that he had

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Speaker 4: been killed. And then you know, she went on to

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Speaker 4: defend her son that you know, he was he didn't

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Speaker 4: do anything wrong, which he did not. He was not

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Speaker 4: a violent man. He was a consenting adult. He didn't

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Speaker 4: hurt people, he didn't hurt women, He had nothing to

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Speaker 4: apologize for, and he certainly didn't need to die for

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Speaker 4: any reason.

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Speaker 6: Can we impack that.

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Speaker 2: For a moment for those who might not know why

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Speaker 2: she's saying that? Or yes, yes, So he was killed

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Speaker 2: because it's alleged that the au Pair and Brendan Banfield,

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Speaker 2: the husband of Christine, set up this fetish account and

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Speaker 2: lured him over right, they's over and told him, you know,

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Speaker 2: bring a knife and a rope because I'm into some

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Speaker 2: role play. So he did that thinking he was going

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Speaker 2: there to meet Christine under consenting circumstances.

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Speaker 3: Yep.

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Speaker 6: And he gets there and he was murdered.

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Speaker 2: So but it looked like, right it initially it looked

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Speaker 2: like he had broken in and was going to assault

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Speaker 2: this woman. So you know, this poor mother was you know,

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Speaker 2: not only dealing with the death of her son, but

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Speaker 2: basically disparaging his name, correct, right, I mean one.

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Speaker 4: Hundred percent just you know, just ruin his stuff and

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Speaker 4: again a footnote in this and he I still I

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Speaker 4: really can't get over if if what the uppair is

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Speaker 4: saying is true. I mean they did they plotted they

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Speaker 4: kill not just the mother Christine, but this stranger Joseph Ryan,

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Speaker 4: and as you said, lured him to his death right

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Speaker 4: and and she just got manse.

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Speaker 6: I know it's insane, it's wild. I can't.

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Speaker 4: I don't know how your mind goes there where you

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Speaker 4: can just totally incidentally kill a person and try and

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Speaker 4: make them look like a murderer, which they did.

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Speaker 6: So well, I hope she feels his name has been vindicated,

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Speaker 6: you know what I mean.

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Speaker 3: I hope, So, I hope, I mean it does.

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Speaker 6: It's a small, you.

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Speaker 5: Know, glimmer of Yeah, it doesn't bring much back.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't bring him back, but yeah, yeah, I agree,

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Speaker 2: poor thing.

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Speaker 6: Poor thing.

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Speaker 3: So sad.

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Speaker 2: She went on to say, my plan is one day

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Speaker 2: after I passed, Joe and I will go together to someplace.

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Speaker 2: That's the plan. But for now he's sitting up there. Well,

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Speaker 2: bless you stick around when we come back. Attorney Jared

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Speaker 2: Farantino joins us to break down the legal side of

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Speaker 2: the Alexander Brothers case. The three luxury real estate brothers

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Speaker 2: accused of drugging and sexually assaulting women.

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Speaker 6: Keeping your True Grown tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime tonight on iHeartRadio, where we

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Speaker 2: talk to your crime all the time. I'm body Movin

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Speaker 2: and I'm here with Courtney Armstrong and producer Taha Howes.

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Speaker 2: Later in the show, a New Jersey man is accused

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Speaker 2: of killing his brother's family and trying to cover it up.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's another tale as old as time over family,

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Speaker 2: betrayal and money. But first, we are so excited to

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Speaker 2: give our warmest of welcomes to veteran trial attorney and

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Speaker 2: Pennsylvania prosecutor Jarrett Farantino. He's here to help us unpack

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Speaker 2: and break down all the legal nitty gritty of all

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Speaker 2: of our cases.

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Speaker 6: And we have a list for him. Hi, jar it's

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Speaker 6: how you doing?

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Speaker 9: Great? To see everybody week that makes me happy, Courtney,

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Speaker 9: what do you got?

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Speaker 3: Okay?

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Speaker 4: So what I have first is a trigger warning and

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Speaker 4: please do heed this because the story, the case that

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Speaker 4: we're about to talk about contains descriptions of rape and

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Speaker 4: listener discretion.

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Speaker 3: Discretion is very strongly advised.

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Speaker 4: So this is about the sex trafficking trial, which we

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Speaker 4: know you've been following, Jarrett, and it's the Alexander Brothers.

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Speaker 3: It has begun.

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Speaker 4: It's taking place in Manhattan with actually the same courtroom

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Speaker 4: as Ditties sex trafficking trial took place in not too

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Speaker 4: long ago. And today the first key accuser testified, and

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Speaker 4: she did so about alleged assaults from back in twenty twelve.

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Speaker 4: And if you're not super conversant in this case, the

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Speaker 4: defendants are tal Or An Alan Alexander. They are former

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Speaker 4: luxury real estate brokers, financiers. They were on the covers

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Speaker 4: of magazines as sort of magnets in their fields, and

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Speaker 4: they're facing federal charges for alleged drugging, raping, and sexually

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Speaker 4: exploiting more than a dozen women over a decade. And

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Speaker 4: what the prosecutors claim is that the brother leveraged their wealth,

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Speaker 4: their access to real luxury experiences to entice victims, and

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Speaker 4: orchestrated attacks that they later quote celebrated.

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Speaker 3: So actually, before we even hop.

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Speaker 4: Into the details of the first victims testimony, Jarrett Body

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Speaker 4: and I both had a couple of questions for you

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Speaker 4: about what happened leading up to it. So, even what

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Speaker 4: does jury selection in a case like this look like?

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Speaker 3: You know, we had heard that.

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Speaker 4: Several people were crossed off the list because they had

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Speaker 4: teenage daughters, So yeah, So what does that selection.

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Speaker 3: Look like from prosecution and defense's side?

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Speaker 9: Well, I must confess I was listening last night and

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Speaker 9: I heard you say that, and I was like, Hey,

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Speaker 9: that's not a reason to strike a juror off. I

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Speaker 9: can't wait to I hope you ask me that tomorrow,

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Speaker 9: and you did right out the gate. So what I

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Speaker 9: think the rest of that story is it's not enough

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Speaker 9: that someone has teenage daughters that they're crossed off if

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Speaker 9: they're asked the question because you have a daughter, do

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Speaker 9: you think a case involving sexual assault of young teenage

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Speaker 9: women or girls in this case too, do you think

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Speaker 9: it would be too much for you to process and

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Speaker 9: you wouldn't consider any of the evidence or the instructions

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Speaker 9: because of your own personal circumstance having a little girl

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Speaker 9: or a daughter. And those folks have, in my opinion

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Speaker 9: and my best guests have indicated, yes, you know what,

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Speaker 9: I'm a dad mom, I'm a girl dad. Ye, I'm

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Speaker 9: a girl mom. It's going to be too much for me.

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Speaker 9: And they got out that alone is not a reason

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Speaker 9: to strike someone, you know, because where does it end.

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Speaker 9: It's like, well, these are a sexual assault of women,

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Speaker 9: you're a woman you can't be on this drive. We're

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Speaker 9: going to continue to find this common ground till we

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Speaker 9: get to someone who has no plausible connection to the victims.

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Speaker 9: And that's really not the process. The process is get

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Speaker 9: to people that can be fair and impartial by whatever

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Speaker 9: means necessary.

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Speaker 3: I'm so happy for that clarification.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we do, because I mean, yeah, I mean, listen,

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Speaker 2: it's emotional regardless, I think, no matter if you have

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Speaker 2: a daughter or not. But having that extra layer, it's

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Speaker 2: probably just imagining this. You know that your little daughter

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Speaker 2: is on the stand, right, that would be really hard.

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Speaker 2: So I applaud them for being honest at least, like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: this is too much for me.

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Speaker 5: That's good.

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Speaker 4: And another question we had from yesterday was so the

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Speaker 4: defense chose they kind of really laid out that these

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Speaker 4: are not the nicest guys, and that's an understatement because

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Speaker 4: they literally said something like, you know, if we're giving

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Speaker 4: out the a Holes of the Year award, do.

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Speaker 3: They would get it?

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Speaker 4: What do you think of the defense's choice to do

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Speaker 4: that out the game.

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Speaker 9: I think it worked for Mark and Filio and his team.

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Speaker 9: In Ditty's case, that's that's exactly what that is. You know,

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Speaker 9: if they went in there after the text messages and

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Speaker 9: the lifestyle that's going to come out, Okay, that's not

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Speaker 9: in dispute, and tried to paint these guys as you know,

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Speaker 9: the nicest people in the world. They would lose all

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Speaker 9: credibility when you fall on the sword and agree with

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Speaker 9: the prosecution on patently obvious portions of their case. It

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Speaker 9: takes the knocks the wind out of their sails. That's

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Speaker 9: a tactic because you're like, hey, I'm not going to

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Speaker 9: lie to you. I'm telling you right now they're jerks.

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Speaker 9: You know. That's It's a great way, and it worked.

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Speaker 9: It worked in Ditty's case, so it's an effective strategy,

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Speaker 9: you know. And then they sit down and take tell

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Speaker 9: the client you know, I don't really think you're an

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Speaker 9: a hole or an intel. This is just the way

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Speaker 9: we're going to play this.

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Speaker 2: It's also like, I'm not defending them as you know,

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Speaker 2: their character. I'm defending them. Did they commit a crime? Right,

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Speaker 2: that's what we're here for.

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Speaker 9: Yes, well, I think that's part of it.

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Speaker 5: You know.

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Speaker 9: Although a lot of this says something about their character, well,

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Speaker 9: it also says they can be a holes and jerks,

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Speaker 9: but they're not rapists Like that's like will acknowledge so much,

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Speaker 9: but we're not there and the prosecution is not.

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Speaker 2: Going to get there, right, Yeah, no, that's good, that's

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Speaker 2: really good. So one of the defense lawyers, Howard Turnavik,

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Speaker 2: he's delaying his opening statement until the case the chief

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Speaker 2: portion of the trial is over, so that you know

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Speaker 2: the defense starts. Is that common strategy to split the

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Speaker 2: opening statements.

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Speaker 9: Here's why I think they did that. So you had

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Speaker 9: the prosecution opening and then followed by two two female

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Speaker 9: defense attorneys, very strong openings. So you had the one

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Speaker 9: and then two two counterpunches back. A third would have

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Speaker 9: been too.

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Speaker 2: Much, okay, so much like the juries and fall asleep

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Speaker 2: at this point, right, yes.

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Speaker 9: And it would be competitive. Now you get an opportunity

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Speaker 9: after the States presented its case. You saw what their

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Speaker 9: witnesses are going to say, you saw who put up

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Speaker 9: or shut up, and you're going to get a chance

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Speaker 9: in the middle of the trial to do a compelling

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Speaker 9: argument and totally pivot them towards your direction. It was

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Speaker 9: a great strategy.

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Speaker 2: It's like setting the table and an eating right and

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Speaker 2: then cleaning it all up and then serving dessert, right,

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Speaker 2: like rushing.

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Speaker 9: Absolutely great analogy, only a defense flavored dessert, no prosecution.

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Speaker 6: That's true, that's true, that point okay.

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Speaker 5: I asked one quick question. Since all three brothers are

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Speaker 5: on trial together, can one of the brothers you know

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Speaker 5: that that has done something really major? Can that bring

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Speaker 5: all three of them down?

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Speaker 9: So they're charged with conspiracy? So if the jury finds

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Speaker 9: that there was a conspiracy, you know, so if tal

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Speaker 9: the twins get convicted and they say Tao was in

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Speaker 9: the room, or Tao was part of this for example, right,

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Speaker 9: he gets pulled into the conspiracy, that's possible. It's also

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Speaker 9: possible one or two of them could be convicted and

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Speaker 9: a third not convicted. So really, although they're being tried together,

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Speaker 9: their cases are defended and considered separately. And then the

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Speaker 9: string that ties them all together is that conspiracy charge.

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Speaker 9: And I know last night as I was listening, I

439
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Speaker 9: think it was Utah who said, why did they try

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Speaker 9: them all together as opposed to separate? What's the advantage?

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Speaker 9: The advantage is your victims in this case do not

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Speaker 9: have to be put through the hell of testifying three times,

443
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:47,840
Speaker 9: and their testimony every time they testify is locked in.

444
00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:50,560
Speaker 9: So if they slip up, the first time, say something

445
00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:53,359
Speaker 9: different the second time. Now you get three bites at

446
00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:56,399
Speaker 9: the apple months apart. That would be that would be

447
00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:59,239
Speaker 9: just a gatling gun of cross examination.

448
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:00,880
Speaker 6: To the defense.

449
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:06,400
Speaker 9: It's fair because here's what's fair. They get a full

450
00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:11,800
Speaker 9: and fair opportunity to cross examine these these individually. Okay, yes,

451
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:14,800
Speaker 9: each indivie trust So it's in the sense that their

452
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:17,359
Speaker 9: own lawyers get to take issue with whatever they're saying.

453
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:20,880
Speaker 9: They get that full and fair opportunity. The other two

454
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:25,119
Speaker 9: major factors are convenience of the court and judicial economy.

455
00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:28,160
Speaker 9: That's another reason you can't tie these prosecutors up three

456
00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:31,240
Speaker 9: separate times for the same acts like it. This makes

457
00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:34,400
Speaker 9: sense to bring these cases together and courts consider that.

458
00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:37,320
Speaker 9: So the fairness to the defenses there they get the

459
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:39,840
Speaker 9: chance with their own lawyers to make the cross the

460
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:42,520
Speaker 9: prosecution doesn't have to do it three times.

461
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:48,240
Speaker 4: Okay, interesting, Okay, So yeah, we had all those questions more,

462
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:53,600
Speaker 4: but yeah, I wanted to get into the testimony with

463
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:58,119
Speaker 4: share it to your point was very powerful. So the

464
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:02,439
Speaker 4: alleged victim testified under a pseudonym of Katie Moore and

465
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:05,040
Speaker 4: at the time of the alleged attack.

466
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:05,600
Speaker 3: In twenty twelve.

467
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:09,439
Speaker 4: She was a twenty year old anthropology major and she

468
00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:11,960
Speaker 4: had gone to what sounds like a great night. It

469
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:15,840
Speaker 4: was an NBA Finals viewing party at the actor Zach

470
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:20,120
Speaker 4: Ephron's penthouse, and she went there with a friend who

471
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:25,720
Speaker 4: knew that one of the brothers Tal Alexander. So at

472
00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:30,840
Speaker 4: the party, as anyone is wont to do, she took Mollie.

473
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:35,040
Speaker 4: She was offered alcohol and then went to a Manhattan

474
00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:41,919
Speaker 4: nightclub party. Afterward, was given another drink, and according to testimony,

475
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 4: her memory was a little bit blurred after the nightclub

476
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:52,080
Speaker 4: and she woke up in a lawn Alexander's apartment. So

477
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:56,600
Speaker 4: she woke up with him standing above her. She was naked,

478
00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:00,480
Speaker 4: He was allegedly also naked. She tried to get it up.

479
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:04,920
Speaker 4: She said that Alan pushed her down and then this

480
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:07,600
Speaker 4: is what this is what got me, I mean, aside

481
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:13,639
Speaker 4: from everything, was this alleged victim Katie Moore said, I

482
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:19,320
Speaker 4: don't want to have sex with you, and Alan allegedly replied, haha,

483
00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:27,760
Speaker 4: you already did and was laughing. Also, she said that Tal,

484
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:30,480
Speaker 4: one of the other brothers, walked into the room briefly,

485
00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:35,920
Speaker 4: but he didn't intervene, and then she finally she escaped

486
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 4: the apartment after alan Uh fell asleep. Just a few

487
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:47,879
Speaker 4: more points, she she did remain composed during her testimony,

488
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:48,880
Speaker 4: which is laudable.

489
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:52,480
Speaker 3: Yes, of course, she did choke up multiple.

490
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:55,399
Speaker 4: Times, and she said she felt she was fearful, she

491
00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:59,479
Speaker 4: was powerless at the time of the assault. But it's

492
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:02,600
Speaker 4: an important message. She realized that the case was, what

493
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:07,359
Speaker 4: she said, bigger than me, and that the brothers had

494
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:11,840
Speaker 4: harmed multiple women, and that explains, you know, that was

495
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:16,040
Speaker 4: why she waited until the twenty twenty four when kind

496
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:17,200
Speaker 4: of they were out.

497
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:19,639
Speaker 2: Well, so many women do, because there's so much shame

498
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:22,639
Speaker 2: that goes along with this, right, because was it my fault?

499
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:23,760
Speaker 2: I mean, we do this as women.

500
00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:25,480
Speaker 6: Is it my fault? Did I drink too much? Did

501
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:26,800
Speaker 6: I lead them on? What happened?

502
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:30,200
Speaker 2: Because she doesn't really remember, right, we do this all

503
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:33,280
Speaker 2: the time to ourselves. So no shame to her for that.

504
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:35,479
Speaker 5: Not at all so common.

505
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:40,160
Speaker 9: You have to remember, too, these guys, they wrap themselves

506
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:45,040
Speaker 9: in wealth, power, influence. So imagine the worst thing that

507
00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:48,400
Speaker 9: ever happened to you, wanting to forget it, wanting to

508
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:51,440
Speaker 9: pretend it didn't happen, or if you want to fight

509
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:54,880
Speaker 9: the power and go in and tell your story. You're

510
00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:58,360
Speaker 9: telling it against three sets of powerful defense lawyers in

511
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 9: a room full of strangers, living this nightmare, against a

512
00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:06,880
Speaker 9: powerful and tough system where you are going to be revictimized.

513
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:11,440
Speaker 9: But there's power in numbers. When you see other women

514
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:15,000
Speaker 9: that come forward in other cases or this very case,

515
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:18,560
Speaker 9: they inspire other victims. I've seen it in my own career.

516
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:23,600
Speaker 9: You know, there's one voice starts, you know, what could

517
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:28,280
Speaker 9: be a crowd shouting and echoing to these to these assaulters.

518
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:32,400
Speaker 9: So you know, I think her testimony was powerful from

519
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:35,600
Speaker 9: what I've read, it wasn't televised. The fact that she

520
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:37,800
Speaker 9: got through it is great. I mean, that was her

521
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:40,240
Speaker 9: moment and she's going to get choked up, and because

522
00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 9: it's tough stuff and you're pushed and your you're question

523
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:47,440
Speaker 9: on every detail, and it's embarrassing. It's not an easy

524
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:51,000
Speaker 9: thing to talk about. But she got through it. She

525
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:54,080
Speaker 9: got to tell her story, and she is going to

526
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:56,040
Speaker 9: be supported by other victims coming in.

527
00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:02,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, there was another moment and to your point, Jared,

528
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:07,560
Speaker 4: no federal cases are televised. But another quote from her

529
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:12,400
Speaker 4: she was asked how long tal the brother who allegedly

530
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 4: walked into the room.

531
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 3: How long he was in the room, and.

532
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:19,480
Speaker 4: She responded, I could not quantify because I was being

533
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:25,440
Speaker 4: raped at that moment. So I mean, and we'll see

534
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:28,000
Speaker 4: how it lays out if what's being alleged is true.

535
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 4: There's been a history of these guys dating back to

536
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 4: high school for some instances of multiple men being involved

537
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 4: in assaults.

538
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:43,200
Speaker 9: Yeah, there's no doubt a pattern has emerged over at

539
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:45,880
Speaker 9: least the past thirteen years which is involved in the

540
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 9: indictment here. And there's power in these numbers. This is

541
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 9: not a he said, she said, It's a he said,

542
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:56,880
Speaker 9: She said, she said, she said, she said, Okay, good luck.

543
00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:01,400
Speaker 9: Not an easy case to defend. And everyone keeps comparing

544
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:05,280
Speaker 9: this to p Diddy. I see the comparisons. I see it,

545
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:07,600
Speaker 9: But this is not Ditty and they are not.

546
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:14,160
Speaker 4: Didty, but the same lawyers soon, Oh yeah, we want

547
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:16,600
Speaker 4: to get your opinion on that after the break is

548
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 4: you know, it just seems human nature. We were debating

549
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:22,960
Speaker 4: if it's lawyers going up against the same people, it

550
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 4: just seems like, of course you'd kind of want to,

551
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:28,960
Speaker 4: I don't know, prove yourself even more right Later in

552
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:30,440
Speaker 4: the show, we're going to be talking about a New

553
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 4: Jersey man who's accused of killing it's gruesome, a bunch

554
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:38,440
Speaker 4: of his family members and trying to cover it up

555
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:40,360
Speaker 4: in the worst way possible.

556
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:40,920
Speaker 3: Not that there's a good way.

557
00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 4: And we are so lucky because we are joined by

558
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:50,520
Speaker 4: Jarrett Barrantino. He's sticking around, and we're going to go

559
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:54,080
Speaker 4: right back into the Alexander brother's case because we have

560
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:57,160
Speaker 4: more questions. Jared, And if you're just joining us the

561
00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:01,720
Speaker 4: Alexander brothers, there's three Alan talent or in and they

562
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:04,880
Speaker 4: were sort of real estate magnates and they are on

563
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:08,560
Speaker 4: a federal trial, very high profile in New York, and

564
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:12,600
Speaker 4: they are accused of multiple accusations, including sex trafficking.

565
00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:15,720
Speaker 3: So body bring the questions.

566
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:19,520
Speaker 2: So I wanted to ask you about the attorneys themselves.

567
00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:27,000
Speaker 2: So the assistant US attorney for this case, attorney Madison Smyermiser,

568
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:31,320
Speaker 2: she was on the government.

569
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 6: Side in the Ditty case.

570
00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:37,960
Speaker 2: And then one of the brothers attorneys is Garagos and

571
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:41,640
Speaker 2: she was also in the Ditty case on the defense side.

572
00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:47,560
Speaker 2: So these two powerful lawyers, right attorneys have battled before

573
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:52,520
Speaker 2: just recently. Does this effect or anything influence the way

574
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:54,640
Speaker 2: they handle the case this case.

575
00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:59,560
Speaker 9: No, absolutely not. I just wondered personal ego ever get

576
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:00,760
Speaker 9: involved than a quarter.

577
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:07,600
Speaker 3: The smirk on Jared's face. No, I am tickled.

578
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:11,480
Speaker 9: I treated every one of my cases that still do

579
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:14,560
Speaker 9: like it's a boxing match, and egos get involved, and

580
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:18,200
Speaker 9: there's rivalries. And don't think for a minute that Madison

581
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:24,080
Speaker 9: and Tenny Garrigos don't have a frenemy rivalry. This is

582
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:26,400
Speaker 9: the they are at the tip of the spear, the

583
00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:29,520
Speaker 9: peak of their professional career. You're talking about one of

584
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 9: the finest prosecutors versus one of the finest up and

585
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:38,360
Speaker 9: coming defense attorneys. Certainly that factors into it. But they're

586
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:40,920
Speaker 9: both very good at what they do too, and they're professionals,

587
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:43,480
Speaker 9: so of course that's part of it. It's almost like

588
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:48,560
Speaker 9: that's what makes this work. There's always a story in

589
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:52,040
Speaker 9: side stories, and the personalities of the players certainly factor

590
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:54,200
Speaker 9: into it. And the lawyers are big players in this,

591
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:57,040
Speaker 9: you know, And sometimes what you don't see is the

592
00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:00,240
Speaker 9: relationships behind the scenes. They could have a cough or

593
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,480
Speaker 9: a beer together, you know, and talk because they are professionals,

594
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:07,320
Speaker 9: but it gets hot sometimes, so yes, it absolutely factors

595
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:10,040
Speaker 9: in I am sure both of them feel like they

596
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:11,680
Speaker 9: have a little bit of a score to settle from

597
00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 9: Diddy too.

598
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:12,680
Speaker 3: Oh right.

599
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:14,799
Speaker 2: I kind of looked at it like I was, well,

600
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:16,600
Speaker 2: I was thinking about it like a dance, like a

601
00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:18,959
Speaker 2: dance partner, Like the first time you dance with somebody,

602
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:20,920
Speaker 2: you don't really know all their moves, right, it's kind

603
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:22,440
Speaker 2: of like you're learning it.

604
00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:24,879
Speaker 6: But now they know each other's moves a little bit.

605
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:26,120
Speaker 6: And I just wondered if.

606
00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:28,520
Speaker 9: When a lawyer would tell me that, they say, like,

607
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:31,200
Speaker 9: we figured out your move, I would say, I don't

608
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:34,480
Speaker 9: even know what I'm going to do. Tell me when

609
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:38,720
Speaker 9: you know. But it's a chess match too. It's dancing

610
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:43,799
Speaker 9: chess because you certainly know when an opponent is a

611
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:46,200
Speaker 9: capable one. And as a lawyer, you want to go

612
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:48,520
Speaker 9: against a good lawyer on the other side because it

613
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:52,960
Speaker 9: makes it more interesting, and it just makes it that

614
00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:55,399
Speaker 9: much stronger of a case on your side. The better

615
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:57,919
Speaker 9: they do, more likely that case is going to stand

616
00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:00,719
Speaker 9: the rigors of an appellate appella.

617
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:04,480
Speaker 2: Scrutiny, right right, You don't want the superior courts getting involved,

618
00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:06,800
Speaker 2: So yeah, okay, right, thank you Arrett.

619
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:09,360
Speaker 5: Can I jump in with one more question? Of course

620
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:11,440
Speaker 5: it feels like it sort of feels like a White

621
00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:14,560
Speaker 5: House press conference or tonight.

622
00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:17,440
Speaker 9: But if they never answered the questions, I hope I'm answering.

623
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:20,560
Speaker 5: You know, you're actually doing it, so that's different. So

624
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:24,160
Speaker 5: earlier we were talking about the victim, Katie Moore, and

625
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:27,520
Speaker 5: she was the one of the first understanding. It's been

626
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:31,919
Speaker 5: over a decade since the incident happened. Do you think

627
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:35,000
Speaker 5: that it's something that the prosecutors will have to try

628
00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:38,719
Speaker 5: to justify or explain like or does that you know,

629
00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:42,839
Speaker 5: does that work against against the person because it's it's

630
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:44,400
Speaker 5: taken so long, it's something you have to sort of

631
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:45,960
Speaker 5: get the jury to understand.

632
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:49,720
Speaker 9: Well, Tad, that's a great question. It's it's a common

633
00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:53,800
Speaker 9: issue that we deal with. Certainly, look at Harvey Weinstein,

634
00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:57,320
Speaker 9: look at Cosby. People waited a long time to come forward.

635
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:01,680
Speaker 9: There are a lot of reasons why wait. The defense

636
00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:05,120
Speaker 9: is going to raise that issue. Okay, they're going to say,

637
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:08,279
Speaker 9: how can you trust someone's memory after all this time,

638
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:11,240
Speaker 9: or why if this has had such a profound effect

639
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:15,880
Speaker 9: on someone, would they wait. There's also psychiatric and psychological

640
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:20,200
Speaker 9: reasons why things get repressed. So the Statutes of limitations

641
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:24,520
Speaker 9: are extended for that reason. So knowing it's going to

642
00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:26,840
Speaker 9: be raised on the defense side, you have to be

643
00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:29,680
Speaker 9: ready to address it and tell your story on the

644
00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 9: prosecution side, and that's the key. So you have to

645
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:36,280
Speaker 9: come in and say, look, this is someone who repressed

646
00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:39,040
Speaker 9: this memory, this is someone who was afraid all of

647
00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:41,120
Speaker 9: those things, and you have to explain to the jury

648
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:43,759
Speaker 9: why it took that long. They're going to want to know.

649
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:46,239
Speaker 9: It's They're human and they're going to want to know

650
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:46,759
Speaker 9: an answer to.

651
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:48,840
Speaker 5: That question, right, thank you?

652
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:53,720
Speaker 4: Okay, So, okay, I want you to make your case

653
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 4: of before you said, you know, people are saying diddy diddy,

654
00:36:56,719 --> 00:37:00,000
Speaker 4: and I agree, and I've been one of the people

655
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:03,960
Speaker 4: guilty of drawing maybe too close of an analogy. But

656
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:09,759
Speaker 4: I'm wondering why these prosecutors are pursuing sex trafficking charges

657
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:13,120
Speaker 4: in this case. Rather, it seems, and I could be

658
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:17,080
Speaker 4: wrong on this, it seems more straightforward for a sexual

659
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:19,840
Speaker 4: assault account or a rape.

660
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:26,120
Speaker 9: So yeah, it's it's sex trafficking because of the see

661
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:30,319
Speaker 9: trafficking in our minds looks like we're you almost think

662
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:33,320
Speaker 9: of pimping, right, you know, and that that is in

663
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:36,600
Speaker 9: the culture how we see it. If you look at

664
00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:42,240
Speaker 9: the statute itself, there are repeated acts causing the movement

665
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:46,759
Speaker 9: of individuals in the in both of those cases women, well,

666
00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:49,480
Speaker 9: actually in Diddi's it was moving the john the men

667
00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:53,319
Speaker 9: around for sex. So you're moving these folks around. There's

668
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:58,239
Speaker 9: fraud and coercion with participants that had that's all the

669
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:01,080
Speaker 9: elements of that charge. So if you take the word

670
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:05,200
Speaker 9: trafficking out of it and say ask the questions, did

671
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:09,240
Speaker 9: the brothers cause these women to travel? Did they entice

672
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:16,160
Speaker 9: them with parties and social you know, social growth, tying

673
00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:19,520
Speaker 9: connecting them to all these famous people. Did they then

674
00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:23,719
Speaker 9: lower their inhibitions with alcohol? Did they roofy them? This

675
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:27,239
Speaker 9: is the pattern that becomes trafficking. There's your fraud, there's

676
00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:32,239
Speaker 9: your coercion. That's why it's charged. So the government was

677
00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:34,240
Speaker 9: not successful in the Didty case.

678
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:35,239
Speaker 5: But it's a.

679
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:38,200
Speaker 9: Case by case analysis the Didty case. And if you

680
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:42,439
Speaker 9: look at Cassie and Diddy's relationship, Okay, it was over

681
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:44,640
Speaker 9: a long period of time and that doesn't mean what

682
00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:46,920
Speaker 9: he did. I'm not excusing what he did, but this

683
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:51,040
Speaker 9: is the difference in this situation, the situation with the

684
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:55,520
Speaker 9: Alexander Brothers is some of these relationships were one off dates, parties,

685
00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:57,960
Speaker 9: enticing these people to come into your life for a

686
00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:01,120
Speaker 9: very short time, and they were spun out after the assault.

687
00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:06,399
Speaker 9: You don't have this consent over time or coming back

688
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:09,040
Speaker 9: in and out, or a financial relationship like you had,

689
00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:12,040
Speaker 9: which really chipped away at the trafficking charge. And did

690
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:14,839
Speaker 9: this is a little different, right?

691
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:17,320
Speaker 4: I Actually I have one more follow up, but that

692
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:20,359
Speaker 4: that actually really helped clarify in my head because I

693
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:23,680
Speaker 4: was having a hard time me too with that. But

694
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:28,640
Speaker 4: what hold on? I lost my train of thought. Well,

695
00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:30,600
Speaker 4: I'll use that if you're just joining us. This is

696
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:34,000
Speaker 4: true crime tonight, and we are talking about the Alexander

697
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:37,440
Speaker 4: Brothers case. Three brothers are on trial for sex trafficking,

698
00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:41,880
Speaker 4: and we are here with Jarrett Farentino answering all our

699
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:48,000
Speaker 4: legal questions. Does trafficking do you have to travel? Because

700
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:49,960
Speaker 4: in the case of the first victim who was on

701
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:53,400
Speaker 4: the stand, she did not travel outside of Manhattan.

702
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:58,320
Speaker 9: There's a there's an interstate connection to bring the federal charge.

703
00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:00,279
Speaker 9: So I don't know exactly what it is is on

704
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:03,360
Speaker 9: the Katie More victim, but in the conspiracy there was

705
00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:06,759
Speaker 9: travel and I think that, so there's got to be

706
00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:10,480
Speaker 9: a link. And the travel here was New York, Miami, Hampton,

707
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:14,360
Speaker 9: so there was some interstate travel somewhere. I just don't

708
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:17,440
Speaker 9: know how how it factored into the Katie Moore situation.

709
00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:21,520
Speaker 9: I think though, when we talk about trafficking, it's not

710
00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:27,680
Speaker 9: necessarily prostitution, need not be prostitution. It's about exploitation. That's

711
00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:31,080
Speaker 9: what people need to focus on. Where these girls exploited.

712
00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:34,320
Speaker 9: That's the question, and that's where I keep the focus.

713
00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:37,120
Speaker 9: If I'm prosecuting this case, I would like forget the

714
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:41,399
Speaker 9: word traffic exploitation. Can you look at this charge? That's

715
00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:42,440
Speaker 9: what we're asking about.

716
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:44,640
Speaker 3: You're so clear?

717
00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:47,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, yeah, get it.

718
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:51,280
Speaker 4: Why don't we get some of our listeners questions? Actually,

719
00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:54,600
Speaker 4: we have a talk back that I think you should

720
00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:55,040
Speaker 4: listen to.

721
00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:58,800
Speaker 10: Hey, Chikaz, I am talking about the Alexander Brothers case.

722
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 10: Is there a chance that women go for civil suits

723
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:05,719
Speaker 10: because and I hate to think this, but cops give

724
00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:08,160
Speaker 10: them the runt around, say they don't have DNA, they

725
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:12,560
Speaker 10: don't have enough evidence, or make the victim feel like

726
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:14,120
Speaker 10: it's their fault that they did it.

727
00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:19,960
Speaker 3: Just a thought, love you guys do you want to

728
00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:23,120
Speaker 3: jump in a uh yeah, So it sounds like that question.

729
00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:25,560
Speaker 9: First of all, in the Alexander case, one of the

730
00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:28,480
Speaker 9: things Tenny Garrigos and the other defense attorneys are raising

731
00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:31,680
Speaker 9: is there are civil suits pending against the Brunners, and

732
00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:34,400
Speaker 9: they'll make that, and I've had cases where that's happened,

733
00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:37,720
Speaker 9: and they make that. They'll say, this is about money,

734
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:41,440
Speaker 9: this is about lawsuit that was filed. So you know

735
00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:45,240
Speaker 9: that is not great when you're in that courtroom. Okay,

736
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:48,400
Speaker 9: but as a prosecute, you want to explain that. You're like, Okay, yeah,

737
00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:51,040
Speaker 9: she's been damaged, she hasn't worked as a result of this,

738
00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:54,880
Speaker 9: She's entitled to a recovery. And this court is about

739
00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:58,200
Speaker 9: a certain type of justice, and that is about financial

740
00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:02,319
Speaker 9: a financial recovery for being damaged. That's what it's about.

741
00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:03,920
Speaker 9: And you just explained it. You got to fall in

742
00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:07,439
Speaker 9: that sort. But her question really was can you file

743
00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:10,320
Speaker 9: a civil suit? I think if there was no charge filed.

744
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:13,560
Speaker 9: And the reality is, first of all, yes, you can.

745
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:16,880
Speaker 9: Sure in civil court. The standard is not beyond a

746
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:19,920
Speaker 9: reasonable doubt, it's to a preponderance of the evidence. So

747
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:22,440
Speaker 9: if you didn't have DNA, but you had other factors.

748
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:26,200
Speaker 9: For example, yes, maybe you could meet that bird. But

749
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:30,080
Speaker 9: there are two distinct paths. Okay, they're parallel because the

750
00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:32,479
Speaker 9: facts are the same, and you really got to prove

751
00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:37,440
Speaker 9: that these assaults happened. But one is about jailing or

752
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:42,239
Speaker 9: criminally consequencing the defendant. The other is about financial recovery.

753
00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:46,520
Speaker 2: So well explained, so well explained, and it so some

754
00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:49,400
Speaker 2: of the women have filed civil suits. We don't know

755
00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:51,799
Speaker 2: about all of them. I don't know about all of them,

756
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:55,440
Speaker 2: but some have and hopefully they see justice through the

757
00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:57,839
Speaker 2: civil court and in this criminal court case.

758
00:42:58,480 --> 00:42:59,919
Speaker 6: Thank you, Jared. Let's go to another talk.

759
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:04,520
Speaker 11: About Hi everyone, Molly from Pennsylvania here. I was listening

760
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:07,320
Speaker 11: to the episode where you're going over the Fourth Amendment

761
00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:10,680
Speaker 11: and thought that you might find this interesting, and body,

762
00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:12,880
Speaker 11: I think you might, especially maybe this will get you

763
00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:18,680
Speaker 11: fired up. In Pennsylvania, game wardens have more power than

764
00:43:18,719 --> 00:43:22,160
Speaker 11: the police because a game warden can come on your

765
00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:26,680
Speaker 11: private property and search your private property without a warrant.

766
00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:29,280
Speaker 11: So you could be in a feud with your neighbor

767
00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:31,960
Speaker 11: and they decide to call in a false tip that

768
00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:35,120
Speaker 11: you're baiting deer or hunting illegally. Or something of that

769
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:38,080
Speaker 11: along those lines. And that's all it takes for a

770
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:42,799
Speaker 11: game warden to come on your property to search. And

771
00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:44,279
Speaker 11: they don't even have to have a tip. If a

772
00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:48,080
Speaker 11: game warden thinks there's a chance you're doing anything illegal

773
00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:51,040
Speaker 11: at all, they can come right on your property without

774
00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:53,879
Speaker 11: a warrant. They can search your hunting pack, they can

775
00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:57,359
Speaker 11: search building. It's really really crazy to me that they

776
00:43:57,400 --> 00:43:59,120
Speaker 11: have more power than.

777
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:03,360
Speaker 2: The police do yees, so they can search your land, right, Jarrett,

778
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:03,839
Speaker 2: Is that right?

779
00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:08,640
Speaker 9: She explained it better than I could nobright, So it's

780
00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:12,359
Speaker 9: called the open fields doctrine. Yes, she hit it, like,

781
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:16,879
Speaker 9: game wardens can go on to your fields. And this

782
00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:20,880
Speaker 9: is look, Pennsylvmanliga's from Pennsylvania. I'm from Pennsylvania. Hunting is important,

783
00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:24,360
Speaker 9: our wildlife is important to us. They can't search your house,

784
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:27,880
Speaker 9: your cabins, your trailers, your garage. Is the immediate persona

785
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:32,400
Speaker 9: around your house, so you don't have an expectation of

786
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:35,880
Speaker 9: privacy to your open fields. And think about this, logically,

787
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:39,239
Speaker 9: most of these beautiful lands in Pennsylvania are next to

788
00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:42,240
Speaker 9: a road, and the open fields you can see onto

789
00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:46,640
Speaker 9: them from other properties. So although they can go on

790
00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:51,240
Speaker 9: there without a warrant to protect wildlife. There are limits

791
00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:53,640
Speaker 9: to it. It's not unlimited, and they don't have more

792
00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:57,080
Speaker 9: power than the police in this regard. They do when

793
00:44:57,080 --> 00:44:59,600
Speaker 9: it comes to wildlife enforcement. Now, the next question is

794
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:01,400
Speaker 9: if they are on your property and they see that

795
00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:05,040
Speaker 9: you're growing marijuana, what do they do? That's waffully on

796
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:09,040
Speaker 9: your property. Then it becomes a plain view situation. So

797
00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:11,479
Speaker 9: if you're going to grow your marijuana, grow it close

798
00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:14,000
Speaker 9: to your house where they can't sit, where those guys

799
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:14,640
Speaker 9: can't see it.

800
00:45:14,719 --> 00:45:15,799
Speaker 3: But so could they.

801
00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:19,399
Speaker 2: If I live in Pennsylvania and I have a nice, big,

802
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:23,040
Speaker 2: fancy field and I'm growing marijuana and the game warns

803
00:45:23,080 --> 00:45:26,280
Speaker 2: come because a polar bear somehow ended up in my field,

804
00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:29,200
Speaker 2: could they call the cops on me because I have marijuana?

805
00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:29,560
Speaker 8: Yes?

806
00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:32,480
Speaker 9: Yes, and that becomes a plain view situation.

807
00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:34,880
Speaker 6: I better, I better hide that stuff better.

808
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:38,440
Speaker 9: Because they're lawfully on your property. At that point, they

809
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:41,680
Speaker 9: see something that is immediately apparent to them to be contraband,

810
00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:43,839
Speaker 9: and then I could make the call.

811
00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:48,200
Speaker 2: That's pretty sketchy. So oh, then what if I buried

812
00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:50,360
Speaker 2: a body and they say found amount of dirt.

813
00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:54,440
Speaker 9: That's not immediately apparent. That's only okay, they could go

814
00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:56,320
Speaker 9: back and they might have to get a warranted dick.

815
00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:05,680
Speaker 4: Kid in kinds of venue laws are really clipping bodies wings. Well, listen,

816
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:08,840
Speaker 4: stay with us because coming up at the top of

817
00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:13,960
Speaker 4: the hour, Jarrett Farentino, Prosecutor extraordinaire, is staying with us

818
00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:17,400
Speaker 4: and we're going to be talking about some legal questions

819
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:20,560
Speaker 4: that we raised last night. Actually it was about the

820
00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:23,880
Speaker 4: Starry Night murderer who's now back behind bars and we

821
00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:27,359
Speaker 4: have another case to dig into with him. So keep

822
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:29,960
Speaker 4: it here. True Crime Tonight. We are talking true crime

823
00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:45,160
Speaker 4: all the time. Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio.

824
00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:49,960
Speaker 4: I'm Courtney Armstrong. I am here with a body move

825
00:46:50,040 --> 00:46:55,520
Speaker 4: in and we also are joined by Prosecutor Jarrett Farentino

826
00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:59,960
Speaker 4: going through all the legal questions. We have producer Taha

827
00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:02,920
Speaker 4: is with us, and Sam and Adam are in the

828
00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:06,640
Speaker 4: control room. So listen. If you missed any part of

829
00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:08,680
Speaker 4: the show whatsoever, you can always just grab us on

830
00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:12,040
Speaker 4: the podcast and call us any time. We're at eighty

831
00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:14,840
Speaker 4: day three on Crime or you can get with us

832
00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:17,520
Speaker 4: on socials. We are at True Crimesnight Show. On TikTok

833
00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:21,080
Speaker 4: and Instagram. We are at True Crime Tonight on Facebook

834
00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:22,520
Speaker 4: and we read everything.

835
00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:24,239
Speaker 3: Later in the.

836
00:47:24,239 --> 00:47:27,480
Speaker 4: Show, we're going to be talking about the Paul Canaro trial.

837
00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:30,960
Speaker 4: He is the one accused of murdering several members of

838
00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:33,480
Speaker 4: his family in a New Jersey mansion. It's kind of

839
00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:38,840
Speaker 4: a mind blowing story. But first body talk to us

840
00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:41,520
Speaker 4: about the Starry Night case. Yeah, the Starry Night case.

841
00:47:41,520 --> 00:47:46,880
Speaker 2: So this guy, Larry Hurwitz, he's the former Portland, Oregon

842
00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:50,799
Speaker 2: nightclub owner and he's called the Starry Night murderer. And

843
00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:54,640
Speaker 2: he's back behind bars more than three decades, thirty years

844
00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:59,279
Speaker 2: after one of the city's most notorious killings. Larry, he's

845
00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:01,360
Speaker 2: now seventy one, and he was arrested on the sixteenth

846
00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:04,800
Speaker 2: of January in Sandy, Oregon and booked into the Claccus

847
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:10,440
Speaker 2: County Jail on charges of fourth degree domestic assault, harassment

848
00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:16,560
Speaker 2: involving offensive physical contact, and a parole violation. His rearrest

849
00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:20,400
Speaker 2: has renewed scrutiny of his very controversial plea deal, in

850
00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:25,880
Speaker 2: one fact that his victim's body has never been found. Okay,

851
00:48:26,719 --> 00:48:28,359
Speaker 2: So I just want to summarize this real quick before

852
00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:29,759
Speaker 2: I get in to the questions for Jerk, because I

853
00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:33,360
Speaker 2: had a list of them. So in nineteen ninety Larry's

854
00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:38,640
Speaker 2: twenty one year old employee, Tim Morio Morrow, he disappeared

855
00:48:38,680 --> 00:48:43,040
Speaker 2: after working at the concert hall that Larry owned. It

856
00:48:43,160 --> 00:48:45,920
Speaker 2: was called the Starry Night Concert Hall and it was

857
00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:47,880
Speaker 2: a northwest Portland venue.

858
00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:48,680
Speaker 12: Well.

859
00:48:48,719 --> 00:48:51,759
Speaker 2: The victim here, Tim Morrow. He was a club, the

860
00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:55,560
Speaker 2: club's promotion manager, and he was believed that he uncovered

861
00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:59,800
Speaker 2: like this scheme that Larry was running, involving counterfeit concert tickets.

862
00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:06,000
Speaker 2: Prosecutors argued that Larry killed Tim to silence him and

863
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:11,480
Speaker 2: prevent exposure of this scheme. Despite all the suspicion, it

864
00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:14,880
Speaker 2: took eight years to arrest Larry due to the absence

865
00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:18,520
Speaker 2: of a body, no eyewitnesses, or a clear crime.

866
00:49:18,239 --> 00:49:21,399
Speaker 6: Scene, so in nineteen ninety eight, So eight.

867
00:49:21,360 --> 00:49:24,520
Speaker 2: Years later Larry was arrested for the murder following a

868
00:49:24,560 --> 00:49:30,320
Speaker 2: case built largely on this circumstantial evidence. In two thousand,

869
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:33,920
Speaker 2: he entered a no contest plea and he avoided a

870
00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:37,880
Speaker 2: potential death sentence and was sentenced to eleven years in prison.

871
00:49:38,239 --> 00:49:42,840
Speaker 2: All right, the plea deal required Larry to help locate

872
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:47,319
Speaker 2: Tim Morrow's remains, but he never disclosed the location, even

873
00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:50,239
Speaker 2: though he agreed to this in the plea deal, So

874
00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:53,719
Speaker 2: let's put a pin in that, okay. He was released

875
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:56,600
Speaker 2: eight years later, So he was sentenced for eleven years.

876
00:49:56,600 --> 00:50:00,560
Speaker 2: He got released after eight and that, you know, really

877
00:50:00,760 --> 00:50:04,480
Speaker 2: prompted a lot of outrage from Tim's parents, Mike and

878
00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:09,600
Speaker 2: Penny Morrow. So fast forward to twenty nineteen, he was

879
00:50:09,680 --> 00:50:14,240
Speaker 2: arrested again in Huntington Beach, California, with four zero point

880
00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:18,320
Speaker 2: four pounds of cocaine and three hundred and twenty thousand

881
00:50:18,320 --> 00:50:19,319
Speaker 2: dollars in cash.

882
00:50:19,480 --> 00:50:19,960
Speaker 5: Good agreed.

883
00:50:20,440 --> 00:50:23,440
Speaker 2: He pled guilty to that in twenty twenty one, and

884
00:50:23,480 --> 00:50:26,480
Speaker 2: he received another eight year sentence, but only served three

885
00:50:26,560 --> 00:50:29,680
Speaker 2: and a half years, where he was returned to Oregon

886
00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:34,120
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty three, where parole officials sentenced him to

887
00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:36,799
Speaker 2: one hundred and eighty days, which is apparently the maximum.

888
00:50:37,480 --> 00:50:41,279
Speaker 2: Now in twenty twenty six, he's jailed again over this

889
00:50:41,360 --> 00:50:45,160
Speaker 2: domestic violence allegations. His bails currently said at half a

890
00:50:45,200 --> 00:50:48,080
Speaker 2: million dollars. He has a courtroom appearance on the fourth

891
00:50:48,120 --> 00:50:50,400
Speaker 2: of February and a jury trial schedule for this on

892
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:55,680
Speaker 2: March nineteenth. Now, haven't taken all that into consideration. Here's

893
00:50:55,719 --> 00:51:00,319
Speaker 2: my questions. If a defendant agrees to give information as

894
00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:03,080
Speaker 2: part of a plea deal and then fails to do so.

895
00:51:04,120 --> 00:51:07,160
Speaker 2: Do they have any what recourse does the justice system have?

896
00:51:08,040 --> 00:51:11,839
Speaker 2: Is it unusual that Herowitz was granted release only three

897
00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:15,080
Speaker 2: years early despite his refusal to cooperate.

898
00:51:16,120 --> 00:51:19,799
Speaker 9: So both of those questions to answer you. For a

899
00:51:19,840 --> 00:51:22,799
Speaker 9: first of all, I cannot believe the sentence this guy got.

900
00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:25,960
Speaker 9: I mean that is unbelievable. He kills a twenty one

901
00:51:26,040 --> 00:51:32,040
Speaker 9: year old kids eighty years like eight. It's a joke,

902
00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:38,000
Speaker 9: but I mean so. But beyond that, the major portion

903
00:51:38,120 --> 00:51:40,680
Speaker 9: of that deal was It's not just an element of

904
00:51:40,719 --> 00:51:44,280
Speaker 9: his plea agreement, it's the element his family. The morals

905
00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:46,799
Speaker 9: want to know where their body is. I have been

906
00:51:46,840 --> 00:51:50,359
Speaker 9: involved in cases where families are looking for bodies. I've

907
00:51:50,400 --> 00:51:53,640
Speaker 9: represented Britney Drexel's family in the Drexel case out of

908
00:51:53,640 --> 00:51:56,520
Speaker 9: South Carolina. I'm sure you're familiar with when they found

909
00:51:56,800 --> 00:52:00,600
Speaker 9: Raymond Moody. The major thing Don wanted Don Drexel one,

910
00:52:00,680 --> 00:52:03,520
Speaker 9: it was where is body been? Nine years there or

911
00:52:03,560 --> 00:52:07,759
Speaker 9: thirteen years at that point? That was that was the

912
00:52:08,160 --> 00:52:11,440
Speaker 9: million dollar question, and he didn't answer it. What can

913
00:52:11,520 --> 00:52:16,880
Speaker 9: prosecutors do guilty plea agreements? Are treated like contracts. Okay,

914
00:52:17,239 --> 00:52:19,960
Speaker 9: we agree to accept this plea and you get this

915
00:52:20,080 --> 00:52:22,719
Speaker 9: sentence in exchange for that information. If you fail to

916
00:52:22,760 --> 00:52:25,919
Speaker 9: provide it, we can pull the plea. We can now

917
00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:29,880
Speaker 9: pursue the death penalty against you. Everything, all cards are

918
00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:34,200
Speaker 9: off the table. Here's the problem. Okay, maybe DA changed

919
00:52:34,239 --> 00:52:37,640
Speaker 9: over that time. This is a no body homicide. Tim

920
00:52:37,680 --> 00:52:41,160
Speaker 9: Morrow's body has never been found, so it's a tough case.

921
00:52:41,440 --> 00:52:44,840
Speaker 9: So do prosecutors say, hey, we take the time we got.

922
00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:47,680
Speaker 9: I know, we didn't get the information we wanted, but

923
00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:50,719
Speaker 9: he's locked up for a while. Maybe that was the thing,

924
00:52:50,760 --> 00:52:53,040
Speaker 9: but they did have the option to pull that plea

925
00:52:53,440 --> 00:52:57,040
Speaker 9: and pursue him Hurwitz a trial.

926
00:52:59,280 --> 00:53:02,080
Speaker 2: I just I just don't understand how they even move

927
00:53:02,200 --> 00:53:07,560
Speaker 2: forward with sentencing and whatnot until that massive portion of

928
00:53:07,640 --> 00:53:09,359
Speaker 2: the plea deal is satisfied.

929
00:53:10,040 --> 00:53:12,439
Speaker 9: Well that's the other quest. That's the next question I had.

930
00:53:12,680 --> 00:53:15,600
Speaker 9: So oftentimes you enter a plea. Think about Colberger. He

931
00:53:15,640 --> 00:53:18,040
Speaker 9: came and he entered the plee. He was not sentenced

932
00:53:18,120 --> 00:53:20,279
Speaker 9: until the victims had the opportunity to address him. Remember

933
00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:24,560
Speaker 9: that there's two different proceeding. How you go forward without

934
00:53:24,600 --> 00:53:29,040
Speaker 9: finding that body is beyond me. There was some malpractice

935
00:53:29,080 --> 00:53:30,920
Speaker 9: there at some point, and that's awful.

936
00:53:31,320 --> 00:53:33,880
Speaker 6: Yeah, I would agree, So let me ask you, Oh

937
00:53:33,880 --> 00:53:34,840
Speaker 6: go ahead, I was.

938
00:53:34,800 --> 00:53:36,920
Speaker 5: Just gonna ask really quickly. If he was supposed to

939
00:53:36,960 --> 00:53:39,000
Speaker 5: help find the body and he didn't, that was part

940
00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:42,120
Speaker 5: of the plea deal? Could it? Could they reopen that case?

941
00:53:43,120 --> 00:53:46,440
Speaker 5: Is that so todd?

942
00:53:46,560 --> 00:53:49,279
Speaker 9: They could? They could pull the plea agreement, ask for

943
00:53:49,400 --> 00:53:52,239
Speaker 9: him to be re sentenced for example, Right, but at

944
00:53:52,239 --> 00:53:54,759
Speaker 9: that point the plea agreement's done, Huritz could take a

945
00:53:54,800 --> 00:53:58,440
Speaker 9: trial on the charge, right, So you could do that.

946
00:53:58,440 --> 00:54:01,359
Speaker 9: That was one option. Again, you'd have to know the

947
00:54:01,360 --> 00:54:04,400
Speaker 9: politics of the prosecutors behind the scenes here, why that

948
00:54:04,640 --> 00:54:07,640
Speaker 9: wasn't done or what you know? Did the office change hands?

949
00:54:07,680 --> 00:54:10,080
Speaker 9: I don't know, and I don't know the strength of

950
00:54:10,120 --> 00:54:12,400
Speaker 9: the case they were actually pursuing for the murder of

951
00:54:12,480 --> 00:54:18,360
Speaker 9: Tim Morrow. The reality is there were consequences and serious

952
00:54:18,400 --> 00:54:21,880
Speaker 9: ones that were not pursued against her Witz for violating

953
00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:22,360
Speaker 9: that police.

954
00:54:23,200 --> 00:54:25,000
Speaker 2: If I was his parents, I would be I'm sure

955
00:54:25,040 --> 00:54:28,439
Speaker 2: they are outraged the world US.

956
00:54:28,560 --> 00:54:28,759
Speaker 5: Right.

957
00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:33,560
Speaker 2: So you know his trial is scheduled for March nineteenth.

958
00:54:34,239 --> 00:54:38,120
Speaker 2: Will the jury here in his upcoming domestic violence trial,

959
00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:41,440
Speaker 2: will they know his criminal history or is that too prejudicial?

960
00:54:43,320 --> 00:54:45,360
Speaker 9: No, they will not likely know. First of all, they

961
00:54:45,400 --> 00:54:47,480
Speaker 9: would never know about the drug history. It has no

962
00:54:47,560 --> 00:54:51,520
Speaker 9: bearing on his propensity for violence in the domestic situation.

963
00:54:52,120 --> 00:54:54,520
Speaker 4: Can I I'm so sorry to interrupt, but I am

964
00:54:54,640 --> 00:54:56,160
Speaker 4: so that four point four.

965
00:54:56,000 --> 00:55:00,799
Speaker 3: Pounds, Yeah, thatsain I listen up last night.

966
00:55:00,840 --> 00:55:03,920
Speaker 4: That is a lot of cocaine that I looked up

967
00:55:03,960 --> 00:55:07,440
Speaker 4: literally how many servings of coke and a pound and

968
00:55:09,000 --> 00:55:12,520
Speaker 4: hand to god that was that was my Google. It

969
00:55:12,560 --> 00:55:16,560
Speaker 4: was like between five and ten thousand servings in abound.

970
00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:17,160
Speaker 2: Wow.

971
00:55:17,440 --> 00:55:20,719
Speaker 3: Sorry, I just that is just a long I mean.

972
00:55:20,680 --> 00:55:23,719
Speaker 9: That alone should have bottom a decade in prison. Yeah,

973
00:55:24,000 --> 00:55:26,080
Speaker 9: but ten to twenty at least, like in fact, I.

974
00:55:26,040 --> 00:55:28,880
Speaker 5: Mean it's right, it is crazy, but this guy was

975
00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:30,160
Speaker 5: no bag of sugar.

976
00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:32,520
Speaker 2: Like, I'm not really concerned about the cocaine. I want

977
00:55:32,560 --> 00:55:34,360
Speaker 2: to know if they're going to learn about the murder.

978
00:55:35,360 --> 00:55:37,879
Speaker 9: So unless it had something to do with the fight,

979
00:55:38,200 --> 00:55:41,560
Speaker 9: the domestic fight he was engaged in, it really has

980
00:55:41,600 --> 00:55:44,560
Speaker 9: no bearing on whether or not he committed a domestic

981
00:55:44,800 --> 00:55:49,200
Speaker 9: violent act all these years later. So unfortunately, body, I

982
00:55:49,239 --> 00:55:51,080
Speaker 9: don't think the jury's going to know that, and they

983
00:55:51,120 --> 00:55:54,520
Speaker 9: know it's too, like you said, it would be too prejudicial.

984
00:55:55,360 --> 00:55:58,080
Speaker 2: Interesting, but it it just goes to violence though. I

985
00:55:58,080 --> 00:56:01,480
Speaker 2: mean if somebody's commit you know, convey did of a

986
00:56:01,520 --> 00:56:04,920
Speaker 2: criminal act such as murder, which is violent by nature,

987
00:56:05,680 --> 00:56:08,759
Speaker 2: I mean I would imagine, right like I just That's

988
00:56:08,920 --> 00:56:10,880
Speaker 2: that I wondered, and that's why I wanted to ask you.

989
00:56:10,880 --> 00:56:13,759
Speaker 6: So I really appreciate you, know, you asking that.

990
00:56:14,160 --> 00:56:15,759
Speaker 2: So if you're just tuning in, this is True Crime

991
00:56:15,760 --> 00:56:18,600
Speaker 2: Tonight on iHeartRadio, we're right in the middle of you know,

992
00:56:18,680 --> 00:56:24,400
Speaker 2: grillin Jarrett Farantino are veteran trial attorney, a prosecutor, Pennsylvania

993
00:56:24,400 --> 00:56:27,320
Speaker 2: prosecutor on all these cases that we're talking about, And

994
00:56:27,360 --> 00:56:28,920
Speaker 2: I have another one I want to present to you,

995
00:56:28,920 --> 00:56:29,600
Speaker 2: if it's okay.

996
00:56:29,440 --> 00:56:30,560
Speaker 6: Jared, sure.

997
00:56:30,719 --> 00:56:35,520
Speaker 2: So, a judge has upheld a permanent gag order and

998
00:56:35,560 --> 00:56:39,080
Speaker 2: granted the defense access to sealed warrants in the murder

999
00:56:39,120 --> 00:56:44,640
Speaker 2: case against Ashley Buzzard. Ashley Buzzer, she's a California mother,

1000
00:56:44,800 --> 00:56:47,760
Speaker 2: and I use that term loosely, and she's been charged

1001
00:56:47,800 --> 00:56:51,279
Speaker 2: with murdering her nine year old daughter, Melody Buzzer, during

1002
00:56:51,280 --> 00:56:53,399
Speaker 2: a three day road trip in October of twenty twenty

1003
00:56:53,480 --> 00:56:57,680
Speaker 2: five and leaving her child's body in rural Utah. The

1004
00:56:57,680 --> 00:57:01,880
Speaker 2: case began after Melody Buzzer, the daughter was reported missing

1005
00:57:02,520 --> 00:57:07,160
Speaker 2: following an extended absence from school, culminating months later in

1006
00:57:07,200 --> 00:57:13,000
Speaker 2: the discovery of her body, her body, and Ashley's arrest.

1007
00:57:13,920 --> 00:57:17,120
Speaker 2: So a few days ago, on the twenty first of January,

1008
00:57:17,960 --> 00:57:21,880
Speaker 2: there was a hearing held in Santa Barbara County.

1009
00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:23,400
Speaker 6: In Superior Court.

1010
00:57:24,240 --> 00:57:29,080
Speaker 2: The judge Stephen Dunkle. He approved a permanent gag order

1011
00:57:29,120 --> 00:57:34,760
Speaker 2: restricting the Santa Barbara County Sheriff's office from releasing investigative details.

1012
00:57:35,840 --> 00:57:38,720
Speaker 2: That seems normal to me, but I'm going to continue.

1013
00:57:39,280 --> 00:57:42,760
Speaker 2: The judge also granted the defense access to sealed search

1014
00:57:42,800 --> 00:57:49,040
Speaker 2: warrants and affid David's, including all future sealed filings. The

1015
00:57:49,080 --> 00:57:52,320
Speaker 2: public defender, her name is Erica Sutherland, and she said

1016
00:57:52,320 --> 00:57:56,040
Speaker 2: the defense was missing essential This is quoting, I'm quoting her. Now,

1017
00:57:56,440 --> 00:58:01,480
Speaker 2: essentially all forensic evidence, potentially hundreds or thousands of pages.

1018
00:58:02,560 --> 00:58:06,480
Speaker 2: Public access, of course, is going to remain restrict. So

1019
00:58:06,560 --> 00:58:12,120
Speaker 2: here's the questions that we have. Okay, what is a

1020
00:58:12,160 --> 00:58:14,960
Speaker 2: gag order and how do they work? And under what

1021
00:58:15,080 --> 00:58:20,520
Speaker 2: circumstances do they benefit the parties in a case, thank you.

1022
00:58:20,600 --> 00:58:23,680
Speaker 9: So when President Trump was on trial in New York,

1023
00:58:23,720 --> 00:58:26,880
Speaker 9: the gag order was the most popular thing and all

1024
00:58:27,520 --> 00:58:30,080
Speaker 9: of true crime, it was. He kept violating it on

1025
00:58:30,120 --> 00:58:31,000
Speaker 9: the in the hallways.

1026
00:58:31,080 --> 00:58:36,000
Speaker 6: Oh that's right right, the judge keep getting mad.

1027
00:58:36,520 --> 00:58:40,400
Speaker 9: Speak to the press. That's how it's commonly understood prosecutors

1028
00:58:40,440 --> 00:58:43,240
Speaker 9: are always under a gag order. I know people don't

1029
00:58:43,240 --> 00:58:46,560
Speaker 9: necessarily know this, but prosecutors can say very limited things,

1030
00:58:46,560 --> 00:58:48,840
Speaker 9: which is why we always sound the same. It's we

1031
00:58:48,880 --> 00:58:51,680
Speaker 9: will in this case onto the courthouse, we represent the

1032
00:58:51,720 --> 00:58:55,000
Speaker 9: evidence in June, like that's all we could say. It's

1033
00:58:55,040 --> 00:58:58,360
Speaker 9: the procedural stuff. We cannot say, like this woman is

1034
00:58:58,400 --> 00:59:00,680
Speaker 9: guilty on the reason. You know, we can't. It doesn't

1035
00:59:00,720 --> 00:59:05,360
Speaker 9: sound like wwe stuff right right, But there are gag

1036
00:59:05,520 --> 00:59:08,480
Speaker 9: orders that go beyond that, where in a case like

1037
00:59:08,560 --> 00:59:11,960
Speaker 9: the Buzzard case, it's applying to the departments and the

1038
00:59:12,000 --> 00:59:15,680
Speaker 9: information that was gleaned during the investigation. No one is

1039
00:59:15,720 --> 00:59:18,560
Speaker 9: to speak. And here's what it tells me. There are

1040
00:59:18,640 --> 00:59:22,919
Speaker 9: confidential witnesses that Ashley doesn't know about yet or don't

1041
00:59:22,960 --> 00:59:27,960
Speaker 9: want to be identified, whose identities are protected in that documentation.

1042
00:59:28,280 --> 00:59:31,320
Speaker 9: And that's why, well, well, I think that's the next stot.

1043
00:59:31,360 --> 00:59:34,760
Speaker 9: But the gag order first is protecting the information, and

1044
00:59:34,800 --> 00:59:37,160
Speaker 9: then we talk about the sealed warrants and everything else

1045
00:59:37,200 --> 00:59:39,000
Speaker 9: and why they remain sealed from.

1046
00:59:38,840 --> 00:59:43,440
Speaker 2: The public right and in this case the defense, you know,

1047
00:59:43,440 --> 00:59:45,920
Speaker 2: because that's generally what a gag order is, right. There

1048
00:59:46,000 --> 00:59:48,760
Speaker 2: was one, of course, we experienced with Brian Coberger's case.

1049
00:59:48,760 --> 00:59:51,120
Speaker 2: You know, in Idaho there was a gag order on that.

1050
00:59:51,200 --> 00:59:54,840
Speaker 2: In Delphi, even the families were gagged, so you know,

1051
00:59:54,920 --> 00:59:58,120
Speaker 2: the gags, they're always different. In this case, the defense

1052
00:59:58,200 --> 01:00:02,880
Speaker 2: requested the gag order to stop ongoing or future statements

1053
01:00:02,880 --> 01:00:06,440
Speaker 2: by authorities that can influence public opinion or the potential

1054
01:00:06,520 --> 01:00:09,240
Speaker 2: jury pool, especially given you know, this is a really

1055
01:00:09,320 --> 01:00:13,680
Speaker 2: high profile case, and so the defense requested it. But

1056
01:00:13,720 --> 01:00:16,480
Speaker 2: when it comes to the sealed warrants, I have another question.

1057
01:00:16,560 --> 01:00:19,160
Speaker 2: I'm so glad you mentioned that. So at the hearing,

1058
01:00:19,200 --> 01:00:21,440
Speaker 2: as I said, on the twenty first, the judge approved

1059
01:00:21,560 --> 01:00:25,320
Speaker 2: the defense's motion granting the defense access to sealed search warrants.

1060
01:00:26,000 --> 01:00:28,520
Speaker 2: Is this a normal process where the defense always has

1061
01:00:28,560 --> 01:00:30,280
Speaker 2: to file emotion to get access to them. I would

1062
01:00:30,320 --> 01:00:33,680
Speaker 2: imagine as part of discovery they would get them regardless

1063
01:00:33,680 --> 01:00:37,360
Speaker 2: but is this a procedural issue or is this uncommon?

1064
01:00:37,840 --> 01:00:40,840
Speaker 9: It sounds like, well, two things are going on. It

1065
01:00:40,880 --> 01:00:43,360
Speaker 9: sounds like discovery has not even begun yet. So when

1066
01:00:43,400 --> 01:00:46,200
Speaker 9: the public defenders saying, we don't have the forensic test,

1067
01:00:46,280 --> 01:00:49,720
Speaker 9: you wouldn't have that stuff now, right, That comes later later. So,

1068
01:00:50,360 --> 01:00:54,000
Speaker 9: but there are also these sealed warrants that were filed

1069
01:00:54,000 --> 01:00:58,400
Speaker 9: and the affidavits that went with them. Okay, when that happens,

1070
01:00:58,480 --> 01:01:02,400
Speaker 9: they're not unsealed unless order of court unseals them over time.

1071
01:01:02,520 --> 01:01:05,760
Speaker 9: So sometimes they'll say they're unsealed in forty five days.

1072
01:01:06,320 --> 01:01:09,200
Speaker 9: The prosecution would request to reseal them for a period

1073
01:01:09,240 --> 01:01:12,960
Speaker 9: of time as well. So the defense is taking the

1074
01:01:13,400 --> 01:01:16,160
Speaker 9: extra step of saying we want them right now. We're

1075
01:01:16,280 --> 01:01:18,920
Speaker 9: entitled to them. We have to defend Miss Buzzard. We

1076
01:01:18,960 --> 01:01:21,680
Speaker 9: need the information in those. The case is moving along,

1077
01:01:22,040 --> 01:01:24,880
Speaker 9: so a court is being asked and we'll order that

1078
01:01:24,920 --> 01:01:27,560
Speaker 9: the defense has provided them, So the time to keep

1079
01:01:27,600 --> 01:01:29,400
Speaker 9: that information secret is kind of.

1080
01:01:29,360 --> 01:01:33,880
Speaker 6: Upp Okay, well, but yeah, you know, gags.

1081
01:01:33,880 --> 01:01:37,280
Speaker 2: A gag orders are I find in true crime and

1082
01:01:37,280 --> 01:01:39,840
Speaker 2: covering true crime for the the last decade or so,

1083
01:01:40,480 --> 01:01:42,880
Speaker 2: in really serious criminal cases like this where they put

1084
01:01:42,880 --> 01:01:45,640
Speaker 2: these gag orders on and there's true crime coverage of it.

1085
01:01:45,960 --> 01:01:48,760
Speaker 2: People start filling in those blanks because we don't have

1086
01:01:48,840 --> 01:01:51,840
Speaker 2: the information to fill those blanks, and that's where all

1087
01:01:51,880 --> 01:01:54,360
Speaker 2: the conspiracies start to come in and whatnot. So you'll

1088
01:01:54,360 --> 01:01:58,880
Speaker 2: see when there's a gag order many times because there's

1089
01:01:58,920 --> 01:01:59,680
Speaker 2: not a lot of talk about it.

1090
01:01:59,680 --> 01:02:00,000
Speaker 6: Everybody.

1091
01:02:00,080 --> 01:02:02,120
Speaker 2: Everybody wants to talk about the case, but there's nothing

1092
01:02:02,120 --> 01:02:06,680
Speaker 2: to talk about, so you start filling in the blanks. Yeah,

1093
01:02:06,960 --> 01:02:08,600
Speaker 2: and the hopefully that doesn't happen here.

1094
01:02:09,240 --> 01:02:10,480
Speaker 3: Absolutely well.

1095
01:02:10,520 --> 01:02:14,960
Speaker 4: Listen, stick around because we are forcing Jarrett Farentino to

1096
01:02:15,080 --> 01:02:19,080
Speaker 4: do so, and kinda he's gonna walk us through the

1097
01:02:19,200 --> 01:02:23,640
Speaker 4: Paul Caniero trial. It's the guy accused of murdering several

1098
01:02:23,720 --> 01:02:26,040
Speaker 4: family members in his New Jersey mansion.

1099
01:02:26,520 --> 01:02:27,320
Speaker 3: True Crime Tonight.

1100
01:02:36,720 --> 01:02:39,439
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

1101
01:02:39,440 --> 01:02:42,480
Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I am body moving and

1102
01:02:42,520 --> 01:02:45,920
Speaker 2: I'm here with Courtney Armstrong and Ta House and we

1103
01:02:46,000 --> 01:02:50,400
Speaker 2: are also joined by a veteran trial attorney, Pennsylvania attorney.

1104
01:02:50,400 --> 01:02:53,440
Speaker 2: I should add Jarrett Farentino. He's giving us all his

1105
01:02:53,960 --> 01:02:57,360
Speaker 2: expert legal analysis and I'm hopefully absorbing it. All like

1106
01:02:57,400 --> 01:02:59,440
Speaker 2: a sponge, so I can sound really smart when I

1107
01:02:59,440 --> 01:03:03,280
Speaker 2: regurgitate that info. Don't forget if you miss any part

1108
01:03:03,400 --> 01:03:05,480
Speaker 2: of Tonight's show, you can always catch us on the podcast.

1109
01:03:05,880 --> 01:03:07,280
Speaker 2: We also want to hear from you, so give us

1110
01:03:07,280 --> 01:03:08,960
Speaker 2: a call at eighty eight to thirty one crime, or

1111
01:03:09,000 --> 01:03:11,800
Speaker 2: hit us up on our socials at True Crime Tonight's

1112
01:03:11,800 --> 01:03:15,680
Speaker 2: Show on TikTok and Instagram, or you can use Facebook

1113
01:03:15,680 --> 01:03:19,800
Speaker 2: and just do a little sarch for True Crime Tonight, Courtney.

1114
01:03:19,520 --> 01:03:20,160
Speaker 6: What do we got?

1115
01:03:21,040 --> 01:03:26,240
Speaker 4: Okay, we have a case that Jarrett is very familiar

1116
01:03:26,320 --> 01:03:30,439
Speaker 4: with and has followed really really closely. So this guy

1117
01:03:30,520 --> 01:03:34,600
Speaker 4: named Paul Canero. He's on trial in New Jersey for

1118
01:03:34,960 --> 01:03:39,400
Speaker 4: an unconscidable crime. He's on trial for the twenty eighteen

1119
01:03:39,480 --> 01:03:43,640
Speaker 4: murders of his brother Keith, his sister in law Jennifer,

1120
01:03:44,280 --> 01:03:47,960
Speaker 4: and their two children, his niece and nephew. So the

1121
01:03:48,040 --> 01:03:52,680
Speaker 4: prosecutors are alleging that he committed these murders to cover

1122
01:03:52,800 --> 01:03:57,120
Speaker 4: up theft from a family trust. And then not only

1123
01:03:57,200 --> 01:04:02,320
Speaker 4: is he accused of shooting his brother and sister in law,

1124
01:04:02,400 --> 01:04:06,120
Speaker 4: but also of stabbing his eight and eleven year old

1125
01:04:06,160 --> 01:04:09,240
Speaker 4: niece and nephew to death. And setting the house on

1126
01:04:09,360 --> 01:04:12,200
Speaker 4: Wait can you stop real quickly there. Yeah, he shot

1127
01:04:12,480 --> 01:04:15,440
Speaker 4: the adults and stabbed the children.

1128
01:04:16,560 --> 01:04:19,480
Speaker 3: Unless unless I have it wrong, that's exactly right.

1129
01:04:19,520 --> 01:04:22,120
Speaker 9: Which lured his brother out of the house by by

1130
01:04:22,240 --> 01:04:25,640
Speaker 9: cutting the power. This is an early morning hours. This

1131
01:04:25,720 --> 01:04:28,080
Speaker 9: is the middle of the night. He lures his brother out,

1132
01:04:28,120 --> 01:04:30,680
Speaker 9: shoots his brother, shoots his sister on line, stabs the

1133
01:04:30,800 --> 01:04:32,800
Speaker 9: children multiple times.

1134
01:04:33,400 --> 01:04:33,800
Speaker 5: Wow.

1135
01:04:34,000 --> 01:04:36,919
Speaker 9: And one of the children survived and died by asphyxiation

1136
01:04:37,040 --> 01:04:40,040
Speaker 9: in the fire after being repeatedly stabbed. And this is

1137
01:04:40,200 --> 01:04:42,560
Speaker 9: this case is mind blowing.

1138
01:04:42,720 --> 01:04:44,120
Speaker 6: I was not prepared for that.

1139
01:04:44,640 --> 01:04:45,120
Speaker 5: Wow.

1140
01:04:46,520 --> 01:04:49,800
Speaker 2: Why why would he do that to those? Okay, anyway,

1141
01:04:49,880 --> 01:04:51,520
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, Courtney, I was just kind of taking no

1142
01:04:51,800 --> 01:04:54,760
Speaker 2: I okay, Yeah, quick side note to everyone listening. This

1143
01:04:54,800 --> 01:04:56,520
Speaker 2: is why, body, I told you, I'm like this was

1144
01:04:57,240 --> 01:04:58,640
Speaker 2: waiting the rundown.

1145
01:04:59,000 --> 01:05:01,200
Speaker 3: I really I was crying five times.

1146
01:05:01,240 --> 01:05:04,000
Speaker 6: And I missed it. Yeah, I was crazy working.

1147
01:05:04,320 --> 01:05:07,520
Speaker 3: No, this is it's really gruesome.

1148
01:05:08,520 --> 01:05:12,960
Speaker 4: So so that's a you know, the very brief overview

1149
01:05:13,040 --> 01:05:17,320
Speaker 4: of this gruesome crime. The defense maintains Canaro's innocence, They

1150
01:05:17,440 --> 01:05:22,680
Speaker 4: challenge the interpretation of the evidence, and this trial is

1151
01:05:22,800 --> 01:05:27,520
Speaker 4: expected to last until about mid March, Canaro's facing life

1152
01:05:27,560 --> 01:05:34,600
Speaker 4: without parole if he is convicted. So what, okay, Jared,

1153
01:05:34,720 --> 01:05:37,560
Speaker 4: kind of will you take people back? Who So now

1154
01:05:37,560 --> 01:05:41,680
Speaker 4: we know what the crime is, broadly take us back

1155
01:05:41,680 --> 01:05:43,720
Speaker 4: a little bit. What are the details people should know

1156
01:05:43,800 --> 01:05:45,480
Speaker 4: as we begin to follow this case.

1157
01:05:45,840 --> 01:05:49,960
Speaker 9: So basically, Paul and Keith Canaro were brothers. Keith Canaro

1158
01:05:50,240 --> 01:05:54,040
Speaker 9: was a business savvy individual. They had an IT company,

1159
01:05:54,320 --> 01:05:57,000
Speaker 9: They made a lot of money. They had I believe

1160
01:05:57,640 --> 01:06:02,840
Speaker 9: a pest control company on the side as well. Keith

1161
01:06:03,040 --> 01:06:05,960
Speaker 9: was trusting of his brother Paul. Keith was the brains

1162
01:06:06,000 --> 01:06:09,200
Speaker 9: of the operation. Paul was the greedy loser of the two.

1163
01:06:10,400 --> 01:06:14,240
Speaker 9: He trusted him to manage much of his finances. Paul

1164
01:06:14,720 --> 01:06:19,040
Speaker 9: was engaged in an extra marital affair, claimed disability at

1165
01:06:19,040 --> 01:06:22,919
Speaker 9: one point, and started to commit fraud and theft upon

1166
01:06:23,000 --> 01:06:26,280
Speaker 9: his brother. He pretended to be paying a life insurance

1167
01:06:26,280 --> 01:06:30,960
Speaker 9: policy premium pocketing, alleged to have pockets the premiums, started

1168
01:06:30,960 --> 01:06:34,000
Speaker 9: taking from the kids trust, all kinds of things. The

1169
01:06:34,120 --> 01:06:39,280
Speaker 9: night Keith confronts Paul about these thefts and he's asking

1170
01:06:39,360 --> 01:06:41,840
Speaker 9: him for the passwords and the logins. There's a recording

1171
01:06:41,840 --> 01:06:45,600
Speaker 9: of this conversation for the computers to check the insurance

1172
01:06:45,640 --> 01:06:49,040
Speaker 9: policies and the trust is the night all this happened.

1173
01:06:50,720 --> 01:06:55,960
Speaker 9: So basically, Paul is ripping Keith off. He gets caught,

1174
01:06:56,320 --> 01:06:58,960
Speaker 9: his world starts to fall apart in an effort to

1175
01:06:59,000 --> 01:07:02,480
Speaker 9: cover it up, kills Keith in a manner and starts

1176
01:07:02,520 --> 01:07:05,280
Speaker 9: a fire at his house and kills his wife and children.

1177
01:07:06,480 --> 01:07:08,920
Speaker 9: Paul goes back to his own house and starts a

1178
01:07:08,960 --> 01:07:13,160
Speaker 9: fire to create the impression that the Canaros are being targeted.

1179
01:07:14,480 --> 01:07:17,720
Speaker 5: Okay, that was the scheme, gotcha?

1180
01:07:18,040 --> 01:07:20,960
Speaker 3: Okay, So it's Courtney.

1181
01:07:21,000 --> 01:07:22,040
Speaker 6: You had mentioned that.

1182
01:07:22,200 --> 01:07:24,600
Speaker 2: You know, the defense is maintaining that he's innocent and

1183
01:07:24,640 --> 01:07:28,240
Speaker 2: they're challenging the interpretation of the evidence.

1184
01:07:28,280 --> 01:07:31,560
Speaker 6: Do we know exactly what they are challenging.

1185
01:07:33,320 --> 01:07:36,120
Speaker 9: So they're trying to blame a third brother. That was

1186
01:07:36,160 --> 01:07:36,640
Speaker 9: one thing.

1187
01:07:37,120 --> 01:07:39,360
Speaker 6: Oh so there's another brother.

1188
01:07:39,560 --> 01:07:43,440
Speaker 9: Oh yes, that was one thing that they suggested in

1189
01:07:43,480 --> 01:07:46,880
Speaker 9: their opening statement. They've not done anything really in that

1190
01:07:46,960 --> 01:07:50,680
Speaker 9: regard right now, it's about proving the arson, uh and

1191
01:07:50,760 --> 01:07:53,800
Speaker 9: some of the So it's a highly forensic case, as

1192
01:07:53,840 --> 01:07:59,960
Speaker 9: you could imagine. There's two fires, multiple victims, guns, knives, DNA, bloodstein,

1193
01:08:00,000 --> 01:08:05,120
Speaker 9: aiming a lot of video and audio evidence, computer evidence,

1194
01:08:05,200 --> 01:08:07,680
Speaker 9: financial evidence. I mean, this case make your head spin.

1195
01:08:07,880 --> 01:08:11,400
Speaker 9: So they're in the technical presentation of the case now

1196
01:08:11,480 --> 01:08:14,840
Speaker 9: on the arson at Keith Canaro's home. It was a mansion.

1197
01:08:15,080 --> 01:08:17,280
Speaker 9: It's been known as the Mansion murders and the colts

1198
01:08:17,320 --> 01:08:20,719
Speaker 9: Neck murders. But that fire burned for a long time,

1199
01:08:20,880 --> 01:08:24,000
Speaker 9: very hot, and that's really what the focus of the

1200
01:08:24,040 --> 01:08:25,120
Speaker 9: past two days has been.

1201
01:08:26,400 --> 01:08:29,719
Speaker 4: Some of this seems really damning, some of the evidence,

1202
01:08:29,800 --> 01:08:33,040
Speaker 4: if I'm understanding it correctly, that bloody clothes were found

1203
01:08:33,080 --> 01:08:37,720
Speaker 4: in Canaro's basement that had the DNA that was his,

1204
01:08:37,720 --> 01:08:40,040
Speaker 4: his nieces, his nephew's.

1205
01:08:40,240 --> 01:08:43,759
Speaker 3: Tests and body.

1206
01:08:44,120 --> 01:08:47,439
Speaker 4: An unfired nine millimeter a round were balled up in

1207
01:08:47,479 --> 01:08:51,280
Speaker 4: the clothing on nine millimeter.

1208
01:08:50,880 --> 01:08:55,160
Speaker 9: Around and again that was at Paul's house where it

1209
01:08:55,200 --> 01:08:57,720
Speaker 9: should not have been right.

1210
01:08:58,520 --> 01:09:00,320
Speaker 4: How do you even get around how do you even

1211
01:09:00,320 --> 01:09:03,400
Speaker 4: get around that? As a defense attorney, and I'm kidding.

1212
01:09:04,800 --> 01:09:07,840
Speaker 9: They do not have an easy job. I can tell

1213
01:09:07,840 --> 01:09:11,040
Speaker 9: you that this is not going well for them. The

1214
01:09:11,120 --> 01:09:14,160
Speaker 9: presentation is coming in. I watched a lot of the

1215
01:09:14,240 --> 01:09:19,800
Speaker 9: testimonies so far, and the detective was great yesterday in particular,

1216
01:09:19,880 --> 01:09:23,519
Speaker 9: They've just done a nice job of presenting complicated evidence.

1217
01:09:23,560 --> 01:09:27,439
Speaker 9: There was blood evidence inside the house that I thought

1218
01:09:27,640 --> 01:09:30,679
Speaker 9: was very, very powerful that suggested that somebody was alive

1219
01:09:30,800 --> 01:09:35,000
Speaker 9: after the attack when the fire started. So it's just

1220
01:09:35,920 --> 01:09:37,640
Speaker 9: this guy's going to be convicted.

1221
01:09:38,160 --> 01:09:42,439
Speaker 6: An unfired round. I wonder what that's all about.

1222
01:09:42,920 --> 01:09:44,960
Speaker 4: Was he taking the bloody clothes off and in a

1223
01:09:45,360 --> 01:09:49,280
Speaker 4: rush to unload his gun or unarm his gun?

1224
01:09:49,320 --> 01:09:53,639
Speaker 2: I mean, I just don't understand why. Listen, it's all terrible,

1225
01:09:53,760 --> 01:09:57,360
Speaker 2: but I just don't understand why he would stab those

1226
01:09:57,439 --> 01:09:59,760
Speaker 2: children and not shoot them. But if there was only

1227
01:09:59,800 --> 01:10:04,040
Speaker 2: one round left, I'm just I'm thinking out loud. I'm sorry,

1228
01:10:04,280 --> 01:10:06,840
Speaker 2: you know what I mean, Like, if there was only

1229
01:10:06,920 --> 01:10:11,280
Speaker 2: one round left, he might not have wanted to make

1230
01:10:11,360 --> 01:10:13,360
Speaker 2: noise and scared the other children away. I don't know,

1231
01:10:13,400 --> 01:10:16,800
Speaker 2: I'm just the whole thing is nasty business. It's I'm

1232
01:10:16,800 --> 01:10:20,040
Speaker 2: also reading here that there was security camera footage from

1233
01:10:21,120 --> 01:10:22,080
Speaker 2: the defendant in this.

1234
01:10:22,120 --> 01:10:24,519
Speaker 6: Case, Paul's garage and cell.

1235
01:10:24,320 --> 01:10:29,559
Speaker 2: Phone communications showing suspicious movements and financial disputes with his

1236
01:10:29,600 --> 01:10:30,919
Speaker 2: brother before the killings.

1237
01:10:31,400 --> 01:10:34,920
Speaker 6: So they must have him on tape. In arguments, I know.

1238
01:10:34,960 --> 01:10:36,680
Speaker 2: I say tape like a ninety five year old, But

1239
01:10:36,720 --> 01:10:40,320
Speaker 2: you know what I mean on tape, you know, arguing

1240
01:10:40,360 --> 01:10:42,880
Speaker 2: with his brother about some of these financial disputes. So

1241
01:10:42,920 --> 01:10:45,960
Speaker 2: that's that's like goes to motive, right, So that's interesting.

1242
01:10:46,640 --> 01:10:46,880
Speaker 5: Wow.

1243
01:10:46,960 --> 01:10:51,879
Speaker 2: And then neighbors of Keith, the victim, reported hearing voices

1244
01:10:51,920 --> 01:10:56,000
Speaker 2: and seeing men in dark clothing outside there that house

1245
01:10:56,160 --> 01:10:58,839
Speaker 2: and noting smoke and flames before nine one one was called.

1246
01:10:59,560 --> 01:11:03,760
Speaker 2: So there they were hearing it. So that's I wonder

1247
01:11:03,800 --> 01:11:04,559
Speaker 2: if they heard a shot.

1248
01:11:06,360 --> 01:11:08,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, I wonder how they couldn't have. Well, you said

1249
01:11:08,840 --> 01:11:11,599
Speaker 4: it was as a mansion referred to as a mansion murder. Yeah, media,

1250
01:11:12,280 --> 01:11:15,360
Speaker 4: were they far apart the neighbors do you know, Jared, Well,

1251
01:11:15,400 --> 01:11:16,200
Speaker 4: they're not close.

1252
01:11:17,000 --> 01:11:21,240
Speaker 9: They're large plots of land. So it is possible a

1253
01:11:21,280 --> 01:11:24,320
Speaker 9: gun was fired and not necessary, not that it wouldn't

1254
01:11:24,320 --> 01:11:26,280
Speaker 9: have been hurt. It just wasn't marked or notice. But

1255
01:11:27,640 --> 01:11:30,800
Speaker 9: the other thing though, body was talking about that video footage.

1256
01:11:31,000 --> 01:11:33,680
Speaker 9: There's two sets of video and audio footage. There was

1257
01:11:34,280 --> 01:11:39,320
Speaker 9: video footage that was taken from Paul's house and the

1258
01:11:39,360 --> 01:11:42,479
Speaker 9: police took it and said, hey, Paul's house was on

1259
01:11:42,560 --> 01:11:46,479
Speaker 9: fire too. We grabbed this footage without a warrant and

1260
01:11:46,560 --> 01:11:49,640
Speaker 9: it was suppressed oh, so then it went up. So

1261
01:11:51,160 --> 01:11:53,759
Speaker 9: believe me, the house is on fire. There's no better

1262
01:11:53,920 --> 01:11:57,320
Speaker 9: exigen circumstance than that. But the judge said, hey, the

1263
01:11:57,360 --> 01:11:59,280
Speaker 9: fire was nowhere near that you guys should have went

1264
01:11:59,320 --> 01:12:02,840
Speaker 9: and got a warrant in that decision. I reviewed that

1265
01:12:02,880 --> 01:12:06,960
Speaker 9: decision and it's extensive and I totally disagree with that

1266
01:12:07,080 --> 01:12:11,839
Speaker 9: reasoning by the judge. Fortunately, there's plenty of other evidence.

1267
01:12:12,320 --> 01:12:13,880
Speaker 6: Fortunately, so hold on.

1268
01:12:14,040 --> 01:12:17,360
Speaker 4: Just so that makes me think, because the fires happened

1269
01:12:17,439 --> 01:12:22,080
Speaker 4: the same night, so investigators did they? I mean, in

1270
01:12:22,800 --> 01:12:27,759
Speaker 4: minutes Narrow went on Paul Canaro's, so they.

1271
01:12:27,680 --> 01:12:32,439
Speaker 9: Didn't discover Keith Canaro's fire until later the next morning,

1272
01:12:32,600 --> 01:12:35,519
Speaker 9: like much later, like eleven or twelve the following day.

1273
01:12:35,720 --> 01:12:37,879
Speaker 9: I hope I'm not mistaining that, but that's my memory.

1274
01:12:37,960 --> 01:12:42,640
Speaker 9: So the Paul Canaro fire is discovered quickly as he

1275
01:12:42,720 --> 01:12:47,519
Speaker 9: lived and it was home collectively. But the Keith Canaro

1276
01:12:47,640 --> 01:12:50,120
Speaker 9: fire burned in his basement, and it came from a

1277
01:12:50,160 --> 01:12:53,479
Speaker 9: closet in the basement and burned for a long time

1278
01:12:53,520 --> 01:12:56,160
Speaker 9: before ultimately consumed the home and was discovered.

1279
01:12:57,360 --> 01:13:00,320
Speaker 6: I think I figured out those single bullets, what did

1280
01:13:00,320 --> 01:13:01,080
Speaker 6: you figure? Okay?

1281
01:13:01,120 --> 01:13:05,719
Speaker 2: So I went and looked and the Keith was shot

1282
01:13:05,840 --> 01:13:10,879
Speaker 2: five times. Okay, assuming he had a six clip pistol. Okay,

1283
01:13:11,080 --> 01:13:15,120
Speaker 2: he was shot five times. The wife, Jennifer, and the

1284
01:13:15,200 --> 01:13:20,960
Speaker 2: children were stabbed. So he only had one bullet left, right,

1285
01:13:21,720 --> 01:13:23,439
Speaker 2: unless he had one in the chamber, which it sounds

1286
01:13:23,439 --> 01:13:25,960
Speaker 2: like you probably didn't, right, because most times, if you

1287
01:13:25,960 --> 01:13:29,559
Speaker 2: have like a six mag gun, you can chamber one

1288
01:13:29,640 --> 01:13:31,120
Speaker 2: and basically hold seven.

1289
01:13:31,600 --> 01:13:33,120
Speaker 6: But it sounds like he didn't do that.

1290
01:13:33,720 --> 01:13:36,639
Speaker 2: I'm guessing, so that one bullet was the one bullet

1291
01:13:36,640 --> 01:13:38,000
Speaker 2: they had he had left.

1292
01:13:38,240 --> 01:13:39,960
Speaker 5: That sounds logical, what a.

1293
01:13:40,040 --> 01:13:43,280
Speaker 9: Jerk, and makes it more likely and connects the dots.

1294
01:13:44,120 --> 01:13:47,639
Speaker 2: Connects the dots, right, That's why I was like, what,

1295
01:13:47,880 --> 01:13:49,559
Speaker 2: I can't let it go. I gotta go figure this out.

1296
01:13:49,680 --> 01:13:53,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, no, I'm smart. I just want to follow up.

1297
01:13:53,400 --> 01:13:56,400
Speaker 4: And I'm sorry if I'm being thick about this, But

1298
01:13:56,800 --> 01:14:01,439
Speaker 4: why so if if this defend didn't he's home and

1299
01:14:01,920 --> 01:14:05,120
Speaker 4: note only one my house is on fire, why did

1300
01:14:05,200 --> 01:14:07,479
Speaker 4: investigators take his.

1301
01:14:09,760 --> 01:14:11,680
Speaker 5: DVR DVR?

1302
01:14:11,880 --> 01:14:14,519
Speaker 9: Well, for one, there was a gas can by his pork.

1303
01:14:15,760 --> 01:14:18,320
Speaker 9: That was a that was a tell when they got there,

1304
01:14:18,360 --> 01:14:24,679
Speaker 9: but special strange and they wanted the video footage because

1305
01:14:24,920 --> 01:14:27,080
Speaker 9: they wanted to know what happened if somebody else lit

1306
01:14:27,080 --> 01:14:32,000
Speaker 9: the fire. They were onto this guy. Quite he was

1307
01:14:32,080 --> 01:14:33,479
Speaker 9: acting suspicious at the.

1308
01:14:33,439 --> 01:14:37,160
Speaker 5: Scene, Okay, already the red flags were already up, so

1309
01:14:37,640 --> 01:14:38,200
Speaker 5: that tracks.

1310
01:14:38,320 --> 01:14:41,759
Speaker 4: Okay, those flags must have been pretty hard to ignore,

1311
01:14:42,040 --> 01:14:45,240
Speaker 4: or you know, and or the detectives were so Johnny

1312
01:14:45,280 --> 01:14:45,799
Speaker 4: on the spot.

1313
01:14:45,840 --> 01:14:48,240
Speaker 3: I mean, that's pretty quick acting.

1314
01:14:48,760 --> 01:14:51,400
Speaker 2: So it's my understanding that this is in New Jersey,

1315
01:14:51,439 --> 01:14:54,559
Speaker 2: is it right? Yes, there's no death penalty in New Jersey?

1316
01:14:54,720 --> 01:14:55,160
Speaker 6: Is that right?

1317
01:14:55,920 --> 01:15:00,360
Speaker 2: Okay, So the defendant, Paul, he rejected to please deal,

1318
01:15:00,360 --> 01:15:02,679
Speaker 2: and the plead deal was offering him life without parole.

1319
01:15:03,400 --> 01:15:07,599
Speaker 2: That's what he's being charged. That's like his sentence anyway.

1320
01:15:06,880 --> 01:15:10,800
Speaker 9: What moratorium on the death penalty in Jersey. So, just

1321
01:15:10,840 --> 01:15:15,559
Speaker 9: like in California, and I could see if I could check,

1322
01:15:16,040 --> 01:15:19,120
Speaker 9: I believe that's the case. Just like California, that's the case.

1323
01:15:19,160 --> 01:15:22,040
Speaker 9: So he was offered life and not to put the family,

1324
01:15:22,360 --> 01:15:27,320
Speaker 9: the survivors of the Canaral family, extended family through a trial,

1325
01:15:27,479 --> 01:15:30,800
Speaker 9: and he turned that down. There's really nothing to offer

1326
01:15:30,840 --> 01:15:31,200
Speaker 9: this guy.

1327
01:15:31,320 --> 01:15:35,360
Speaker 13: There really is nothing to offer job right, And I

1328
01:15:36,479 --> 01:15:41,800
Speaker 13: believe that Jersey abolished the death penalty in two thousand

1329
01:15:41,840 --> 01:15:43,240
Speaker 13: and seven, was.

1330
01:15:45,000 --> 01:15:48,720
Speaker 4: The first first state and over forty years to do so.

1331
01:15:49,960 --> 01:15:57,240
Speaker 4: Interesting and this so this pos defended. He is alleging

1332
01:15:57,320 --> 01:16:01,320
Speaker 4: that another brother. So not only did he, if what's

1333
01:16:01,360 --> 01:16:04,960
Speaker 4: allegis true, kill his you know, brother, sister in law,

1334
01:16:05,000 --> 01:16:06,120
Speaker 4: his niece, his nephew.

1335
01:16:06,600 --> 01:16:09,600
Speaker 3: And now he's saying some other brother, Oh he did it.

1336
01:16:10,000 --> 01:16:10,720
Speaker 3: He set me up?

1337
01:16:11,400 --> 01:16:15,040
Speaker 9: Did he put his way out the door to finally

1338
01:16:15,479 --> 01:16:19,519
Speaker 9: victimize the last remaining brother? Right, The suggestion was the

1339
01:16:19,600 --> 01:16:22,880
Speaker 9: other brother had motive to the police didn't look at him.

1340
01:16:23,280 --> 01:16:26,519
Speaker 9: Everybody focused on Paul. That was That was the wis

1341
01:16:26,560 --> 01:16:29,000
Speaker 9: that was put out in the opening statement where it

1342
01:16:29,040 --> 01:16:31,040
Speaker 9: goes we'll know in a few weeks.

1343
01:16:32,000 --> 01:16:34,479
Speaker 4: I'm interested to I mean, I'm going to be so

1344
01:16:35,080 --> 01:16:37,640
Speaker 4: curious again how the defense.

1345
01:16:38,960 --> 01:16:40,479
Speaker 3: Goes against all of us.

1346
01:16:40,960 --> 01:16:42,080
Speaker 5: Yes, one of the other.

1347
01:16:41,920 --> 01:16:45,040
Speaker 9: Things worth noting is their business started to have trouble,

1348
01:16:45,760 --> 01:16:49,439
Speaker 9: and that was where things started to tighten up. They

1349
01:16:49,439 --> 01:16:53,000
Speaker 9: were losing a major client of their tech firm, the

1350
01:16:53,160 --> 01:16:56,160
Speaker 9: major client who was going with another vendor, and that's

1351
01:16:56,200 --> 01:16:59,120
Speaker 9: where things started to fall apart. Because Keith was concerned,

1352
01:16:59,160 --> 01:17:02,680
Speaker 9: stressed looking at his financial situation, and that's where he

1353
01:17:02,760 --> 01:17:04,680
Speaker 9: discovered the financial irregularities.

1354
01:17:05,120 --> 01:17:07,800
Speaker 2: Well, this case is expected to go on through March.

1355
01:17:07,840 --> 01:17:10,000
Speaker 2: Is something I'd like to follow up on, if you

1356
01:17:10,000 --> 01:17:12,920
Speaker 2: guys are okay with that. Jarrett, thank you so much

1357
01:17:12,960 --> 01:17:14,519
Speaker 2: for joining us tonight and putting up with all of

1358
01:17:14,560 --> 01:17:15,600
Speaker 2: our silly questions.

1359
01:17:15,680 --> 01:17:18,000
Speaker 6: They mean a lot to us. We look forward all

1360
01:17:18,000 --> 01:17:18,960
Speaker 6: week to having you here.

1361
01:17:19,240 --> 01:17:22,040
Speaker 2: Anyone who wants more Jarrett and who doesn't, you can

1362
01:17:22,080 --> 01:17:25,200
Speaker 2: follow him on social media at Jarrett Farentino on Instagram.

1363
01:17:25,479 --> 01:17:29,280
Speaker 2: You can also pre order his upcoming book, Mothers, Murders

1364
01:17:29,280 --> 01:17:31,880
Speaker 2: and Motivation. It's coming out in the spring of twenty

1365
01:17:31,920 --> 01:17:34,160
Speaker 2: twenty six, and you better get a copy because he

1366
01:17:34,240 --> 01:17:36,560
Speaker 2: might be able to sign a copy for you at crime.

1367
01:17:36,320 --> 01:17:41,040
Speaker 9: Con Woo, and you need a copy for Mother's Day.

1368
01:17:41,080 --> 01:17:42,479
Speaker 9: It's a mob, that's right.

1369
01:17:44,200 --> 01:17:45,360
Speaker 8: Day. Jarrett.

1370
01:17:45,360 --> 01:17:46,120
Speaker 6: Thank you so much.

1371
01:17:46,520 --> 01:17:49,559
Speaker 4: My husband is totally buying me this book for Oh,

1372
01:17:49,600 --> 01:17:50,320
Speaker 4: I'm getting.

1373
01:17:50,080 --> 01:17:52,280
Speaker 6: It for sure. I'm gonna I'm going to be in line.

1374
01:17:52,640 --> 01:17:54,839
Speaker 6: He's gonna be like, is that body in my line?

1375
01:17:54,920 --> 01:17:56,439
Speaker 5: What is she doing in my line?

1376
01:17:56,680 --> 01:17:58,799
Speaker 6: I've gone over here.

1377
01:18:00,200 --> 01:18:03,879
Speaker 3: So excited, everybody. Yeah, definitely go see jaredy right.

1378
01:18:03,920 --> 01:18:06,439
Speaker 2: Stick around because we've got more to dig into. We've

1379
01:18:06,479 --> 01:18:07,320
Speaker 2: got some talkbacks.

1380
01:18:07,360 --> 01:18:08,840
Speaker 6: We're going to turn the show over to you keep

1381
01:18:08,840 --> 01:18:10,040
Speaker 6: it right here at True Crime Tonight.

1382
01:18:20,240 --> 01:18:21,960
Speaker 3: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight.

1383
01:18:22,000 --> 01:18:25,240
Speaker 4: We are on iHeartRadio and we're talking true crime all

1384
01:18:25,320 --> 01:18:29,960
Speaker 4: the time. I'm Courtney Armstrong here with Buddy Movin and

1385
01:18:30,200 --> 01:18:34,439
Speaker 4: Stephanie Leidecker Wie More shout out at Sundance for Katie

1386
01:18:34,479 --> 01:18:37,200
Speaker 4: Studio's Murder one oh one premiere.

1387
01:18:37,360 --> 01:18:41,320
Speaker 3: She is our shining star, all of our collective true

1388
01:18:41,320 --> 01:18:42,000
Speaker 3: crime Ie.

1389
01:18:43,560 --> 01:18:47,519
Speaker 4: And listen, I think should we just get right into

1390
01:18:47,560 --> 01:18:48,360
Speaker 4: some talkbacks?

1391
01:18:48,400 --> 01:18:48,960
Speaker 3: What do you listen?

1392
01:18:49,840 --> 01:18:51,920
Speaker 6: I'm a let's get down to business girl.

1393
01:18:52,360 --> 01:18:54,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm for it. Let's do it, Let's do it.

1394
01:18:54,439 --> 01:18:55,519
Speaker 5: Let's toss one up there.

1395
01:18:55,960 --> 01:18:59,799
Speaker 10: Hello, ladies and Taha and the boys in the control.

1396
01:19:00,680 --> 01:19:02,240
Speaker 6: It's Emily from north of Boston.

1397
01:19:02,240 --> 01:19:05,599
Speaker 2: And let me tell you, we got jumped on this

1398
01:19:05,760 --> 01:19:09,839
Speaker 2: weekend about three feet of snow I think on Monday wild.

1399
01:19:10,000 --> 01:19:12,240
Speaker 3: But you know what, we're making it. The trash is

1400
01:19:12,280 --> 01:19:15,479
Speaker 3: getting picked up. It's hard, but you know what. The

1401
01:19:15,520 --> 01:19:16,360
Speaker 3: show goes on.

1402
01:19:16,920 --> 01:19:19,960
Speaker 2: And we are from the place where I just can't

1403
01:19:20,000 --> 01:19:20,800
Speaker 2: control the weather.

1404
01:19:21,080 --> 01:19:25,760
Speaker 6: But Vegas sounds nice, dry warm. Hey, I want to girl,

1405
01:19:25,840 --> 01:19:27,080
Speaker 6: let's get it. Let's get a cocktail.

1406
01:19:27,120 --> 01:19:31,040
Speaker 2: Emily from Boston. It's not hot out here. How much

1407
01:19:31,040 --> 01:19:34,240
Speaker 2: do you love I love it, Emily.

1408
01:19:35,680 --> 01:19:39,519
Speaker 4: My mom and I, Betty, Betty and I were talking

1409
01:19:39,560 --> 01:19:42,040
Speaker 4: about you because you had a dropped that you would

1410
01:19:42,040 --> 01:19:43,679
Speaker 4: not be on the show because you, like my mother,

1411
01:19:43,720 --> 01:19:46,479
Speaker 4: go to bed. So you have been talked about by

1412
01:19:46,520 --> 01:19:51,479
Speaker 4: me multiple times because a core of my deepest friends.

1413
01:19:51,479 --> 01:19:54,919
Speaker 4: This goes back to my college rugby days, and there's.

1414
01:19:54,760 --> 01:19:59,000
Speaker 6: Rugby I did. Oh wow, I played rugby.

1415
01:19:59,360 --> 01:20:01,760
Speaker 3: An underc and also in Australia when I was.

1416
01:20:02,720 --> 01:20:08,759
Speaker 2: What we have a professional rugby player, far from far from.

1417
01:20:08,600 --> 01:20:12,679
Speaker 5: The fact that traveled you went to not.

1418
01:20:12,640 --> 01:20:16,360
Speaker 4: To play rugby, No, but I went there abroad, but

1419
01:20:16,600 --> 01:20:20,880
Speaker 4: I played. I joined This was actually okay, this is

1420
01:20:20,880 --> 01:20:23,360
Speaker 4: such an aside. But so I went on a normal

1421
01:20:23,560 --> 01:20:26,160
Speaker 4: go abroad. I was there for six months, right, and

1422
01:20:26,240 --> 01:20:28,800
Speaker 4: we had to do what was called an ethnography, just a.

1423
01:20:28,760 --> 01:20:30,559
Speaker 3: Study of some part of the culture.

1424
01:20:31,040 --> 01:20:33,920
Speaker 4: So since I was a rugby player, I joined the

1425
01:20:34,280 --> 01:20:35,639
Speaker 4: Sydney UNI team.

1426
01:20:35,760 --> 01:20:39,920
Speaker 3: So I played. I played a smaller position. Though in

1427
01:20:39,960 --> 01:20:40,920
Speaker 3: Australia you.

1428
01:20:41,800 --> 01:20:44,080
Speaker 6: Were you weren't as good as they were.

1429
01:20:45,200 --> 01:20:48,080
Speaker 2: That's they played rugby, like for serious, right, Like it's

1430
01:20:48,120 --> 01:20:50,839
Speaker 2: like a it's a it's like a massive support over there, isn't.

1431
01:20:50,640 --> 01:20:53,719
Speaker 3: It absolutely huge?

1432
01:20:54,080 --> 01:20:54,400
Speaker 6: Huge?

1433
01:20:54,680 --> 01:20:58,280
Speaker 4: And in general I think rugby players are just across

1434
01:20:58,320 --> 01:21:01,120
Speaker 4: the board the coolest, just down to earth.

1435
01:21:01,439 --> 01:21:03,320
Speaker 6: It's like roller Derby. To me, it's like, oh I

1436
01:21:03,400 --> 01:21:03,680
Speaker 6: like that.

1437
01:21:04,080 --> 01:21:06,320
Speaker 3: It's great. And then you have the drink ups afterwards.

1438
01:21:06,360 --> 01:21:09,800
Speaker 4: And honestly, I chose that as my quote study versus

1439
01:21:10,120 --> 01:21:14,320
Speaker 4: you know, something financial or something. And then I got

1440
01:21:14,320 --> 01:21:17,360
Speaker 4: to want to a million games and yeah.

1441
01:21:17,479 --> 01:21:20,519
Speaker 5: Wow, never never had an injury or anything.

1442
01:21:21,240 --> 01:21:28,680
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, I got a couple of concussions and yeah, yeah.

1443
01:21:28,280 --> 01:21:29,240
Speaker 3: Two concussions.

1444
01:21:29,360 --> 01:21:31,599
Speaker 6: That is so cool, I mean.

1445
01:21:31,680 --> 01:21:37,320
Speaker 4: And then but I never broke my shoulder, which that is,

1446
01:21:37,400 --> 01:21:40,000
Speaker 4: I have to say, the most common. I'd say by

1447
01:21:40,000 --> 01:21:41,960
Speaker 4: the end of the season, probably a quarter of the

1448
01:21:42,000 --> 01:21:44,120
Speaker 4: team was walking around with one arm because you wrap

1449
01:21:44,240 --> 01:21:45,360
Speaker 4: tackle shoulder.

1450
01:21:46,479 --> 01:21:49,599
Speaker 3: Okay, so I lucked out. And I never broke my nose,

1451
01:21:50,240 --> 01:21:52,280
Speaker 3: which that was my fear because I do. I enjoy

1452
01:21:52,400 --> 01:21:52,840
Speaker 3: my nose.

1453
01:21:54,479 --> 01:21:56,120
Speaker 6: I enjoy your face. I don't want to ruin.

1454
01:21:56,560 --> 01:21:59,439
Speaker 5: Yeah, I don't know why.

1455
01:21:59,439 --> 01:22:00,280
Speaker 6: I'm so taken back.

1456
01:22:00,320 --> 01:22:01,240
Speaker 5: That's so cool too.

1457
01:22:01,280 --> 01:22:02,920
Speaker 3: It's a it's it's a cool thing.

1458
01:22:02,960 --> 01:22:05,840
Speaker 2: It's not very cool, it's just cool, like, oh yeah

1459
01:22:05,880 --> 01:22:08,320
Speaker 2: with Australia played Rugby, no big deal and that.

1460
01:22:08,720 --> 01:22:10,920
Speaker 4: So this wraps back to how much I love when

1461
01:22:10,960 --> 01:22:15,439
Speaker 4: Emily calls in, because that group of literally twenty on

1462
01:22:15,520 --> 01:22:19,400
Speaker 4: the group text that we're still on and we're planning

1463
01:22:19,479 --> 01:22:21,360
Speaker 4: a big trip at a couple of months at like a

1464
01:22:21,439 --> 01:22:26,040
Speaker 4: huge house. Most of them are massholes, and so I

1465
01:22:26,160 --> 01:22:30,519
Speaker 4: just have you sound like home and right, I love it.

1466
01:22:31,240 --> 01:22:34,160
Speaker 2: Hopefully it's fine, nice and toasty, and hopefully you have

1467
01:22:34,240 --> 01:22:38,200
Speaker 2: all your power and you're safe and we need you

1468
01:22:38,439 --> 01:22:40,320
Speaker 2: to keep calling into the show.

1469
01:22:40,840 --> 01:22:43,800
Speaker 5: Yes, that's because that storm was pretty bad. It was

1470
01:22:43,840 --> 01:22:47,160
Speaker 5: a beast. So I know feel bad for our listeners

1471
01:22:47,160 --> 01:22:50,120
Speaker 5: out there. But should we go to another talk back?

1472
01:22:50,760 --> 01:22:52,080
Speaker 6: Yeah, let's do it.

1473
01:22:52,680 --> 01:22:57,760
Speaker 14: Hi, It's Carol from Pensyla. And you have mentioned Zodiascian

1474
01:22:58,280 --> 01:23:02,559
Speaker 14: last night's podcast too, and I wanted to say I

1475
01:23:02,880 --> 01:23:05,640
Speaker 14: was never interested in it, but you were talking about it.

1476
01:23:05,720 --> 01:23:09,080
Speaker 14: So I went on Netflix. I watched the documentary, which

1477
01:23:09,200 --> 01:23:11,439
Speaker 14: pretty much did it for me, and then I watched

1478
01:23:11,640 --> 01:23:15,519
Speaker 14: the movie and I think after that you really can

1479
01:23:15,640 --> 01:23:18,920
Speaker 14: have no doubt that Arthur Lee Allen was the Zodiac Killer,

1480
01:23:19,080 --> 01:23:21,200
Speaker 14: and at the end of one of those shows it

1481
01:23:21,320 --> 01:23:24,040
Speaker 14: popped up that the police did have an interview set

1482
01:23:24,160 --> 01:23:26,160
Speaker 14: up with him, but he had a heart attack and

1483
01:23:26,280 --> 01:23:30,280
Speaker 14: died before that interview. And then the one in the

1484
01:23:30,320 --> 01:23:34,040
Speaker 14: beginning when someone said, you can't blame them for being

1485
01:23:34,080 --> 01:23:37,000
Speaker 14: an a hole, Well you're wrong. I can and do

1486
01:23:37,160 --> 01:23:38,679
Speaker 14: blame them for being an a whole.

1487
01:23:39,040 --> 01:23:42,519
Speaker 6: Feel better, bye, I feel you so yeah.

1488
01:23:43,240 --> 01:23:48,800
Speaker 2: Alan was suspicious, like there's no question. Arthur Lee Allen.

1489
01:23:48,880 --> 01:23:52,360
Speaker 2: He was a Navy veteran and a former school teacher.

1490
01:23:53,240 --> 01:23:56,440
Speaker 2: He became one of the well most well known suspects

1491
01:23:56,680 --> 01:24:01,120
Speaker 2: in you know, the Zodiac killer case. He was suspicious because,

1492
01:24:01,320 --> 01:24:04,080
Speaker 2: like his background and behavior, it raised a lot of

1493
01:24:04,120 --> 01:24:09,400
Speaker 2: eyebrows amongst the investigators and in media too. He taught

1494
01:24:10,680 --> 01:24:15,440
Speaker 2: cryptography style lessons and songs about death in his classroom

1495
01:24:15,479 --> 01:24:18,080
Speaker 2: to his teat his students. Oh wow, And it echoed

1496
01:24:18,120 --> 01:24:21,560
Speaker 2: a lot of the elements seen in those letters and

1497
01:24:21,640 --> 01:24:24,880
Speaker 2: whatnot that I was talking about during that segment. And

1498
01:24:25,120 --> 01:24:30,000
Speaker 2: his timeline overlaps and inlays with the Zodiac murders and

1499
01:24:30,280 --> 01:24:32,479
Speaker 2: the movements, and he became a person of interest really

1500
01:24:32,560 --> 01:24:36,840
Speaker 2: early on and in that documentary that she's talking about.

1501
01:24:36,960 --> 01:24:38,600
Speaker 2: This is the Zodiac speaking. I think he is the

1502
01:24:38,720 --> 01:24:41,720
Speaker 2: one that she's talking about that she watched. It featured

1503
01:24:41,800 --> 01:24:46,280
Speaker 2: the Seawater family, who knew him personally and now believe

1504
01:24:46,600 --> 01:24:49,519
Speaker 2: he may have been the killer based on personal accounts

1505
01:24:49,520 --> 01:24:52,639
Speaker 2: that they had with him and suspicious events they recall

1506
01:24:53,120 --> 01:24:58,280
Speaker 2: from their early childhood when the Zodiac was active. And yeah,

1507
01:24:58,360 --> 01:25:02,639
Speaker 2: he did die in ninety two. He was fifty eight

1508
01:25:02,840 --> 01:25:07,120
Speaker 2: and ninety two. And you know, despite being a prime

1509
01:25:07,200 --> 01:25:10,599
Speaker 2: suspect for a really long time, authorities never afflicially charged

1510
01:25:10,680 --> 01:25:12,000
Speaker 2: him or proved he was a Zodiac.

1511
01:25:12,640 --> 01:25:17,040
Speaker 5: And I understand he lived near multiple crime scene so

1512
01:25:17,640 --> 01:25:19,559
Speaker 5: that was a major reason as well too.

1513
01:25:20,160 --> 01:25:21,880
Speaker 2: And I don't know if they're ever gonna listen. I

1514
01:25:21,920 --> 01:25:23,400
Speaker 2: don't know if they're ever going to find this guy,

1515
01:25:24,000 --> 01:25:27,400
Speaker 2: you know what I mean, Like if it was Arthur.

1516
01:25:27,640 --> 01:25:32,040
Speaker 2: You know, again, there's no physical there's no like definitive proof,

1517
01:25:32,200 --> 01:25:36,000
Speaker 2: right everyone who everyone has their theory on who Zodiac was.

1518
01:25:36,200 --> 01:25:40,479
Speaker 2: I think Arthur Lee Allen was a pretty good suspect.

1519
01:25:40,720 --> 01:25:41,200
Speaker 3: I would have to.

1520
01:25:41,280 --> 01:25:43,120
Speaker 2: I don't know if I have no doubt, because I do,

1521
01:25:44,600 --> 01:25:47,479
Speaker 2: but I think he's pretty good. Yeah, it's pretty good,

1522
01:25:47,520 --> 01:25:48,560
Speaker 2: but it's all circumstantial.

1523
01:25:49,800 --> 01:25:51,960
Speaker 3: Everybody wants that night, which is okay.

1524
01:25:52,479 --> 01:25:56,120
Speaker 2: It is okay, but it's harder to have a circumstantial

1525
01:25:56,200 --> 01:26:00,360
Speaker 2: case on a case this old, with all all the

1526
01:26:00,400 --> 01:26:04,800
Speaker 2: suspects are dead, right, It's just difficult, kind of like

1527
01:26:04,920 --> 01:26:07,960
Speaker 2: Jack the Ripper right right, and it's like, you know,

1528
01:26:08,320 --> 01:26:12,440
Speaker 2: it's just hard. It's hard to it's hard for the community,

1529
01:26:12,640 --> 01:26:15,519
Speaker 2: the authorities, you know, like the FBI and the San

1530
01:26:15,520 --> 01:26:19,280
Speaker 2: Francisco Police departments and whatnot, to come to one conclusion.

1531
01:26:19,760 --> 01:26:22,880
Speaker 2: And so the public at large still has their little

1532
01:26:22,920 --> 01:26:23,920
Speaker 2: suspects that they think of.

1533
01:26:24,439 --> 01:26:27,880
Speaker 6: So but Arthur Allen, Arthur Lee Allen, is a good suspect.

1534
01:26:27,960 --> 01:26:30,360
Speaker 5: I agree. Yeah, sounds like he's one of the top ones.

1535
01:26:30,400 --> 01:26:32,840
Speaker 5: And I can kind of see why. I first of all,

1536
01:26:32,840 --> 01:26:36,080
Speaker 5: I think I'm always fascinated and find it amazing that

1537
01:26:36,200 --> 01:26:38,560
Speaker 5: we inspire some of our listeners to go back and

1538
01:26:38,640 --> 01:26:41,000
Speaker 5: look at the commentaries and watch the films and things

1539
01:26:41,040 --> 01:26:43,760
Speaker 5: that we've talked about. But you said something yesterday, body

1540
01:26:43,840 --> 01:26:46,639
Speaker 5: that that stuck with me too, that you've had people

1541
01:26:47,520 --> 01:26:51,559
Speaker 5: contact you and say, oh, I'm related to this particular person.

1542
01:26:53,880 --> 01:26:56,400
Speaker 5: So fair, isn't it. That's bizarre.

1543
01:26:56,760 --> 01:27:00,760
Speaker 2: It's it's always somebody that is convinced like their grandfather

1544
01:27:01,080 --> 01:27:06,080
Speaker 2: was a zodiac or you know there it's always zodiac too,

1545
01:27:06,120 --> 01:27:09,080
Speaker 2: by the way, is it really yeah, it's alway zodiac.

1546
01:27:09,680 --> 01:27:10,280
Speaker 6: It's interesting.

1547
01:27:11,040 --> 01:27:11,479
Speaker 3: I don't know.

1548
01:27:11,720 --> 01:27:14,759
Speaker 4: I feel like if I had that even an inkling

1549
01:27:14,840 --> 01:27:17,120
Speaker 4: of a thought and it was a closed case, I

1550
01:27:17,240 --> 01:27:18,479
Speaker 4: kind of keep writing myself.

1551
01:27:18,760 --> 01:27:21,479
Speaker 2: I don't know it just I did get one one

1552
01:27:21,560 --> 01:27:25,200
Speaker 2: time of somebody that thought their uncle killed John Bennet.

1553
01:27:26,720 --> 01:27:28,960
Speaker 6: Oh, but I'm like, why do you tell me? Like

1554
01:27:29,040 --> 01:27:30,240
Speaker 6: what am I supposed to do with this? You know

1555
01:27:30,280 --> 01:27:30,599
Speaker 6: what I mean?

1556
01:27:30,680 --> 01:27:33,439
Speaker 5: Like, okay, then that would put me in that awkward

1557
01:27:33,520 --> 01:27:36,160
Speaker 5: position like do I pass this along to authorities? And

1558
01:27:36,280 --> 01:27:37,360
Speaker 5: then maybe you should?

1559
01:27:37,520 --> 01:27:39,719
Speaker 9: Why haven't you listen?

1560
01:27:39,920 --> 01:27:41,720
Speaker 6: I'm like nobody, Like what are you telling me for?

1561
01:27:42,240 --> 01:27:46,240
Speaker 6: You know, because they want they want me to look.

1562
01:27:46,160 --> 01:27:49,360
Speaker 5: Into it now, dig into it and connect some dots.

1563
01:27:49,760 --> 01:27:53,559
Speaker 2: But I've never gotten a very compelling request. It's always

1564
01:27:53,640 --> 01:27:59,000
Speaker 2: just been like conspiracy, like Operation paper Clip crazy stuff.

1565
01:27:59,080 --> 01:28:01,080
Speaker 6: So I'm like okay, okay, yeah.

1566
01:28:01,560 --> 01:28:06,120
Speaker 5: Mmmm that one's an interesting one. So well. You know,

1567
01:28:06,200 --> 01:28:09,439
Speaker 5: we love our dms and we love our talkbacks, but

1568
01:28:09,560 --> 01:28:11,720
Speaker 5: we love getting DMS as well. And I think we

1569
01:28:11,880 --> 01:28:14,880
Speaker 5: got one body that I passed along to you, okay,

1570
01:28:14,920 --> 01:28:17,240
Speaker 5: and we pull up. I'm gonna I mean, I can

1571
01:28:17,640 --> 01:28:18,479
Speaker 5: read over that one.

1572
01:28:18,520 --> 01:28:22,000
Speaker 2: No, it's okay, I got it. Okay, it says Hi there,

1573
01:28:22,560 --> 01:28:25,360
Speaker 2: This is from Zach. Hi there, Sorry about not doing

1574
01:28:25,439 --> 01:28:29,040
Speaker 2: a talkback. Zach here from Philly originally Chicago.

1575
01:28:29,200 --> 01:28:31,400
Speaker 6: Whoop whoop. That's literally what he says. Okay.

1576
01:28:32,280 --> 01:28:35,440
Speaker 2: In regards to Tuesday's episode, you'all talked about the Stanford

1577
01:28:35,560 --> 01:28:39,519
Speaker 2: and Milgrim experiment. It just so happens that all of

1578
01:28:39,600 --> 01:28:43,880
Speaker 2: those were exaggerated. For example, the Stanford experiment, the guards

1579
01:28:43,920 --> 01:28:46,760
Speaker 2: were kind to the prisoners. It was the leader of

1580
01:28:46,800 --> 01:28:50,880
Speaker 2: the professor Zimbarno, who purposely escalated the scenarios to the

1581
01:28:50,960 --> 01:28:51,960
Speaker 2: point of refusal.

1582
01:28:52,439 --> 01:28:54,200
Speaker 6: Interesting. I never knew this, you guys.

1583
01:28:54,280 --> 01:28:58,720
Speaker 2: I read the book called Humankind, A Hopeful History by

1584
01:28:59,200 --> 01:29:02,160
Speaker 2: Rutger Bregn. I'm not a psychologist, but I am a

1585
01:29:02,240 --> 01:29:05,800
Speaker 2: criminal a clinical therapist, and I hope this message brings

1586
01:29:05,800 --> 01:29:09,400
Speaker 2: some light to those not normal, weird times. I could

1587
01:29:09,439 --> 01:29:11,080
Speaker 2: go on and on about how much I love the show.

1588
01:29:11,120 --> 01:29:13,360
Speaker 2: It really brings me joy. Thank you so much, Zach.

1589
01:29:13,800 --> 01:29:17,040
Speaker 2: I'm gonna have to read this book. I never literally

1590
01:29:17,160 --> 01:29:19,439
Speaker 2: never heard this in my entire life, my whole life.

1591
01:29:19,520 --> 01:29:22,680
Speaker 2: I grew up from my you know, everything, thinking that

1592
01:29:22,760 --> 01:29:25,240
Speaker 2: this was a real thing, that this really, you know,

1593
01:29:25,720 --> 01:29:29,160
Speaker 2: was like a really good example of how un you know,

1594
01:29:29,760 --> 01:29:33,800
Speaker 2: authorized not unauthorized, but it was just a really good

1595
01:29:33,840 --> 01:29:36,400
Speaker 2: example how abusive power can kind of just rein free.

1596
01:29:37,280 --> 01:29:39,120
Speaker 2: And he's telling me my whole life is a lie

1597
01:29:39,200 --> 01:29:40,920
Speaker 2: right now. I don't know how to feel about that, Zach.

1598
01:29:41,600 --> 01:29:44,120
Speaker 4: I know I'm I'm compelled to read the book too,

1599
01:29:44,520 --> 01:29:46,920
Speaker 4: And yeah, thank you for that, because I know, thank you,

1600
01:29:47,720 --> 01:29:48,840
Speaker 4: I was standing pretty strong.

1601
01:29:48,880 --> 01:29:49,680
Speaker 3: I'm going to look it up.

1602
01:29:50,560 --> 01:29:50,640
Speaker 9: Well.

1603
01:29:50,680 --> 01:29:53,120
Speaker 6: I wanted to do a whole deep dime. Remember last night,

1604
01:29:53,400 --> 01:29:54,000
Speaker 6: I was like, let's do it.

1605
01:29:54,200 --> 01:29:54,599
Speaker 5: We should?

1606
01:29:54,760 --> 01:29:59,240
Speaker 2: I feel well, maybe we should with this included with

1607
01:29:59,360 --> 01:30:01,120
Speaker 2: this information, right there we.

1608
01:30:01,160 --> 01:30:02,960
Speaker 5: Go thinking the same thing. I think this is a

1609
01:30:03,200 --> 01:30:04,479
Speaker 5: good one to dig into.

1610
01:30:05,120 --> 01:30:05,679
Speaker 6: Thank you, Sach.

1611
01:30:05,840 --> 01:30:07,519
Speaker 2: No, Yeah, I love that. Well, I don't love that.

1612
01:30:07,560 --> 01:30:10,519
Speaker 2: I actually hate this because it's my whole perception of.

1613
01:30:10,680 --> 01:30:13,120
Speaker 3: Shaking your foundation a little bit.

1614
01:30:13,120 --> 01:30:16,080
Speaker 2: It's kind of like, how remember when I learned MLK

1615
01:30:16,280 --> 01:30:17,160
Speaker 2: was really conspiracy?

1616
01:30:17,200 --> 01:30:19,439
Speaker 6: I was like, what, no idea?

1617
01:30:21,000 --> 01:30:22,880
Speaker 5: I still can't get past. I didn't know what three

1618
01:30:22,920 --> 01:30:24,800
Speaker 5: one one was until two days ago.

1619
01:30:26,880 --> 01:30:32,759
Speaker 4: I I've asked so many people and yeah, it's interesting, Sam, Adam,

1620
01:30:32,840 --> 01:30:35,800
Speaker 4: did you know do you know three one one is that?

1621
01:30:36,080 --> 01:30:36,920
Speaker 2: Like you?

1622
01:30:37,760 --> 01:30:39,560
Speaker 12: In my mind, I'm thinking you call it and you

1623
01:30:39,720 --> 01:30:43,960
Speaker 12: get information. But that's that's one one general. Okay, that's

1624
01:30:44,280 --> 01:30:48,080
Speaker 12: one for one one? Yeah, Sam, do you know I heard?

1625
01:30:48,320 --> 01:30:50,560
Speaker 9: But I figured it was just like regional.

1626
01:30:50,800 --> 01:30:53,040
Speaker 6: I didn't know that affects anywhere else.

1627
01:30:53,960 --> 01:30:56,800
Speaker 2: I might be regional, but it's been everywhere I've lived.

1628
01:30:56,800 --> 01:31:00,559
Speaker 2: I've lived in Michigan, I've lived in California.

1629
01:31:00,280 --> 01:31:06,400
Speaker 5: Florida, And so what is it three one play?

1630
01:31:06,680 --> 01:31:11,160
Speaker 2: It's no, it's like non emergency, but it's it's you know,

1631
01:31:11,800 --> 01:31:14,320
Speaker 2: police services, But it's not if.

1632
01:31:14,280 --> 01:31:17,840
Speaker 6: I like left trash on the sidewalk, I called three

1633
01:31:17,880 --> 01:31:19,519
Speaker 6: one one and say, I think.

1634
01:31:19,439 --> 01:31:22,200
Speaker 5: When I read it, I said things like potholes or

1635
01:31:22,320 --> 01:31:25,639
Speaker 5: things that are problematic. But and it came up because

1636
01:31:25,800 --> 01:31:29,240
Speaker 5: we were saying, if you think you're driving along and

1637
01:31:29,320 --> 01:31:31,920
Speaker 5: someone behind you looks suspicious and maybe it's not an

1638
01:31:31,960 --> 01:31:35,240
Speaker 5: actual police officer, but maybe has the fake lights above right,

1639
01:31:35,880 --> 01:31:37,800
Speaker 5: And I was saying, I just called nine, you know,

1640
01:31:37,880 --> 01:31:40,680
Speaker 5: and call the police, and she suggested, well, it's not

1641
01:31:40,760 --> 01:31:43,800
Speaker 5: really an emergency, maybe called three one one, And that's

1642
01:31:43,840 --> 01:31:45,960
Speaker 5: where this whole conversation came up. But what is three

1643
01:31:46,000 --> 01:31:46,320
Speaker 5: one one?

1644
01:31:46,520 --> 01:31:49,160
Speaker 2: Well, so like where I live in Las Vegas, we

1645
01:31:49,280 --> 01:31:53,120
Speaker 2: use three one one for like things like fireworks or

1646
01:31:53,200 --> 01:31:57,360
Speaker 2: firecrackers going off too late at night, or loud music,

1647
01:31:58,320 --> 01:32:06,360
Speaker 2: a break in, you know, vandalism I know, well, meaning

1648
01:32:06,439 --> 01:32:08,320
Speaker 2: that you come home and your house has been broken into.

1649
01:32:08,600 --> 01:32:11,560
Speaker 2: You don't with that, you know what I mean, I

1650
01:32:11,640 --> 01:32:17,840
Speaker 2: didn't know that I would. Yeah, well, it means the

1651
01:32:17,920 --> 01:32:21,120
Speaker 2: suspects have left the scene though you're not in any danger, right,

1652
01:32:21,240 --> 01:32:23,720
Speaker 2: You're not in any like real danger. I don't mean

1653
01:32:23,800 --> 01:32:25,840
Speaker 2: like you know, somebody has done a home invasion or

1654
01:32:25,880 --> 01:32:27,840
Speaker 2: something like that. But like you go to work, you

1655
01:32:27,920 --> 01:32:30,680
Speaker 2: come home, nobody's in your home and the place has

1656
01:32:30,720 --> 01:32:32,439
Speaker 2: been vandalized. You would call three one one for that

1657
01:32:32,880 --> 01:32:33,400
Speaker 2: where I live.

1658
01:32:34,520 --> 01:32:37,280
Speaker 5: Yeah, No, this is all educational for me because I

1659
01:32:37,320 --> 01:32:39,320
Speaker 5: think that's my go to number.

1660
01:32:40,560 --> 01:32:45,160
Speaker 2: It's where you would report a crime where there's no

1661
01:32:45,400 --> 01:32:52,160
Speaker 2: immediate threat to your life. I guess, okay, yeah, that's

1662
01:32:52,600 --> 01:32:54,720
Speaker 2: look it up in your look listen, look it up

1663
01:32:54,760 --> 01:32:56,800
Speaker 2: in your region do not take my word for it, Like, I.

1664
01:32:56,800 --> 01:32:58,880
Speaker 6: Don't want anybody not to call nine one one if

1665
01:32:58,960 --> 01:32:59,240
Speaker 6: they don't.

1666
01:33:00,040 --> 01:33:02,280
Speaker 2: You know, nine one one should be reserved for life

1667
01:33:02,360 --> 01:33:04,519
Speaker 2: threatening emergencies, right, You don't want to clog up the

1668
01:33:04,600 --> 01:33:07,400
Speaker 2: nine one one calls because somebody's you know, putting out

1669
01:33:07,479 --> 01:33:09,680
Speaker 2: fireworks and whatnot, you know, and keeping you up late

1670
01:33:09,720 --> 01:33:11,679
Speaker 2: at night and you're out there screaming, get off my lawn.

1671
01:33:11,840 --> 01:33:13,240
Speaker 6: You know, you don't want to call nine one for what?

1672
01:33:13,360 --> 01:33:13,519
Speaker 8: For that?

1673
01:33:14,360 --> 01:33:16,839
Speaker 5: I've seen the ponymousness where someone is like they delivered

1674
01:33:16,840 --> 01:33:17,479
Speaker 5: the wrong pizza.

1675
01:33:20,920 --> 01:33:24,600
Speaker 2: Okay, so those Karen videos, I love watching them, and

1676
01:33:24,680 --> 01:33:28,080
Speaker 2: I've seen on those Karen videos people call nine one

1677
01:33:28,160 --> 01:33:30,799
Speaker 2: one because they didn't get like a refund they expected

1678
01:33:30,960 --> 01:33:34,800
Speaker 2: at gcpenny or whatever. That's not what nine one one is.

1679
01:33:34,880 --> 01:33:39,280
Speaker 2: Fallour like, do not like stop it anyway?

1680
01:33:39,320 --> 01:33:39,960
Speaker 5: Stop it?

1681
01:33:40,360 --> 01:33:40,760
Speaker 3: Stop it?

1682
01:33:41,200 --> 01:33:45,800
Speaker 4: Well, listen on that note. Good night, and yeah, we

1683
01:33:45,880 --> 01:33:49,080
Speaker 4: thank you as always for joining. And tomorrow is actually

1684
01:33:49,120 --> 01:33:52,840
Speaker 4: an Encore episode. It's one of our absolute favorite episodes.

1685
01:33:52,880 --> 01:33:56,080
Speaker 4: It aired around the holidays and and it's feel good

1686
01:33:56,200 --> 01:33:59,920
Speaker 4: and it's informative, so we hope you enjoy it.

1687
01:34:00,680 --> 01:34:03,519
Speaker 3: Yeah, be safe, be good, Mack