1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,000 Speaker 1: Just a heads up. Today's episode contains mentions of suicidal ideation. 2 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:11,039 Speaker 1: You're listening to Disinformed, a mini series from There Are 3 00:00:11,039 --> 00:00:18,040 Speaker 1: No Girls on the Internet. I'm Bridget Todd. Today I 4 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:20,680 Speaker 1: wanted to do a quick special episode breaking down Prince 5 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 1: Harry and Meghan Markle's interview with Oprah that aired on 6 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:26,479 Speaker 1: CBS this past weekend. So I'm not someone who really 7 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 1: follows the royals very closely, though I was pretty excited 8 00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 1: at the possibility of getting a black princess, even though 9 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 1: I know I know she was a duchess, not a princess. Now, 10 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:38,720 Speaker 1: because I'm not so interested in the Royals, I almost 11 00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:41,600 Speaker 1: didn't watch the Oprah interview with Megan Markel and Prince Harry, 12 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:44,440 Speaker 1: and I'm really glad I did because Megan's story fits 13 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:47,920 Speaker 1: into what we already know about racist, sexist, disinformation and 14 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:50,680 Speaker 1: online harassment campaigns, and I wanted to talk a little 15 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:53,479 Speaker 1: bit about that today. Now, if you haven't watched the interview, 16 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:56,240 Speaker 1: I'm gonna be talking about it in specifics during this episode. 17 00:00:57,080 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 1: When I first watched the interview, so much of it 18 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 1: rang true for me. I was watching it while scrolling Twitter, 19 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:04,840 Speaker 1: and all my black women and friends are being like, yes, yes, yes, 20 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:07,759 Speaker 1: I know exactly what she's talking about, even though technically 21 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:11,760 Speaker 1: none of us are actual princesses. Meghan's story of being 22 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:14,920 Speaker 1: a black woman facing racist abuse and harassment online is 23 00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:17,960 Speaker 1: sadly pretty universal. It's something a lot of us have 24 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:20,560 Speaker 1: already dealt with. You might not be surprised to learn 25 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:23,319 Speaker 1: that we have a digital media landscape that traffics and 26 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:26,760 Speaker 1: distortions that rely on unfair biases, and we already know 27 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:30,200 Speaker 1: that black women face more harassment and abuse online. A 28 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:33,240 Speaker 1: study from Anesty International found that black women got eighty 29 00:01:33,319 --> 00:01:36,760 Speaker 1: four percent more abuse and harassment online than their white counterparts, 30 00:01:37,319 --> 00:01:39,800 Speaker 1: So that means that Megan was really going through it. 31 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:43,479 Speaker 1: This is what black feminist scholar Moya Bailey has called 32 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:47,800 Speaker 1: massage nore, or the toxic combination of racism and sexism 33 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:50,480 Speaker 1: that black women can face. And because Megan is a 34 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 1: black woman, her race and gender are uniquely weaponized against 35 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 1: her to fuel the tax rooted in stereotypes about her identity. Now, 36 00:01:58,120 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 1: this is a good time to say that there's a 37 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 1: pretty big between the kinds of rude caddy gossip that 38 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 1: other members of the royal family are accustomed to getting 39 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 1: and the kinds of racist, sexist attacks that Megan endured. 40 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:11,160 Speaker 1: Here's how Megan put it in her interview. If they 41 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:13,840 Speaker 1: can compare what the experience and I went through was 42 00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:16,840 Speaker 1: similar to what has been shared with us, Kate was 43 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:21,560 Speaker 1: called waity Katie waiting to marry William. While I imagine 44 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 1: that was really hard, and I do, I can't picture 45 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:27,240 Speaker 1: what that felt like. This is not the same. And 46 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:29,520 Speaker 1: if a member of his family will comfortably say we've 47 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:31,840 Speaker 1: all had to deal with things that are rude, rude 48 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:34,919 Speaker 1: and racist are not the same. So what exactly has 49 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 1: this racialized abuse campaign against Megan looked like? Well, it 50 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 1: means that she has to deal with floods of inaccurate 51 00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:44,080 Speaker 1: news items where the storyline is one rooted in unfair 52 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:47,560 Speaker 1: stereotypes or distortions that rely on her race and gender 53 00:02:47,639 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 1: to paint Megan out as being angry or emotional, or 54 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:53,720 Speaker 1: crazy or untrustworthy. Just look at one of the big 55 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:56,440 Speaker 1: stories that Megan talked about in her OPRAH interview, the 56 00:02:56,480 --> 00:03:01,079 Speaker 1: infamous Megan made Kate Cry headline, So headline after headline 57 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:03,880 Speaker 1: framed Megan as a bully who made her sister in law, 58 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:06,639 Speaker 1: Kate Middleton cried during a dress fitting for her wedding, 59 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:09,560 Speaker 1: but according to the interview with Oprah, it was actually 60 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 1: Megan who cried, and Kate actually set Megan an apology 61 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:15,840 Speaker 1: letter afterward. Now it's easy to see how framing a 62 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:18,440 Speaker 1: black woman as driving a white woman to tears is 63 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 1: meant to capitalize on a racist trope about black women 64 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 1: being angry. Importantly, Megan says that everybody in the royal 65 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:28,120 Speaker 1: family knew the truth of what happened in this situation, 66 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 1: but no one actually came forward and corrected the record. 67 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:34,800 Speaker 1: They just let this racially charged story fester and grow 68 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 1: online and in the media. Now, when we're dealing with 69 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 1: racialized bias, it can mean there are completely different standards, 70 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 1: one for women of color or black women and another 71 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 1: for everyone else. This is actually a pretty perasive thing 72 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 1: in our culture. And even though it's something that can 73 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:51,520 Speaker 1: be subtle and difficult to see, just take a look 74 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:54,640 Speaker 1: at how headlines praised Kate Middleton for certain behavior while 75 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 1: trashing Megan for that very same behavior. Kate was praised 76 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 1: by The Daily Mail for quote underly cradling her baby bump, 77 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:05,080 Speaker 1: while the same publication wondered if Megan putting her hands 78 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:08,240 Speaker 1: on her pregnant belly was a show of pride or vanity, 79 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 1: and it kind of gets to the point where it's ridiculous. 80 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 1: The magazine The Express called pregnant Kate eating avocado quote 81 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:20,359 Speaker 1: good for baby. Meanwhile, that same magazine linked avocado to 82 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:23,800 Speaker 1: human rights abuses in a piece about Megan enjoying avocado. 83 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:27,800 Speaker 1: This pretty clearly establishes that there are two sets of rules, 84 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 1: one for white women like Kate and another harsher standard 85 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 1: for women of color like Megan. What makes this even 86 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:37,400 Speaker 1: harder is the fact that it's not really considered polite 87 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:40,880 Speaker 1: to talk about your experiences with racism in public. Even 88 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:43,360 Speaker 1: watching the interview, it's clear to me and probably every 89 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 1: black person who watched it that Megan is only telling 90 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 1: a fraction of what she actually went through. She's still 91 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:53,040 Speaker 1: being so diplomatic. For instance, she refused to say exactly 92 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:56,240 Speaker 1: who in the Royal family expressed concerns about how dark 93 00:04:56,279 --> 00:04:59,200 Speaker 1: her son Archie's skin would be. It's clear the Royal 94 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 1: family wants to act like race wasn't a factor and 95 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:04,839 Speaker 1: how she's being treated when it's so obviously is. Online 96 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:09,200 Speaker 1: harassment campaigns are never race neutral. The media landscape doesn't 97 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:12,280 Speaker 1: just amplify these racist, sexist attacks that Megan faced, they 98 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:15,719 Speaker 1: actually profit off of them. In her interview, Megan points 99 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 1: out the symbiotic relationship between the royal family and the press. 100 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:22,279 Speaker 1: Coverage of the royal self papers and in turn helps 101 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 1: keep the Royals relevant. But as we know, when coverage 102 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 1: traffics and people's racialized hate and biases, everything gets more intense. 103 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:34,560 Speaker 1: Megan says, there's a construct that's at play here. They 104 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 1: were so attacking and inciting so much racism. It changed 105 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:40,240 Speaker 1: the risk level because it wasn't just catty gossip. It 106 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:42,200 Speaker 1: was breaking out a part of people that was racist 107 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 1: and how it was charged, and that changed the threat. 108 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:46,800 Speaker 1: That changed the level of death threats we got. That 109 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:50,200 Speaker 1: changed everything. Now. It's kind of a funny example, but 110 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:53,279 Speaker 1: this YouTube prank show pretty much shows that royal commentators, 111 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:57,600 Speaker 1: including the Queen's former press secretary Dicky Arbiter, CNN's Royal 112 00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:01,799 Speaker 1: commentator Victoria Arbiter, and Majesty magazine editor Ingrid c Word, 113 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 1: we're all pretty much fine getting paid money to lie 114 00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:07,880 Speaker 1: about Megan and Harry on television. The pranksters pretended to 115 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:10,600 Speaker 1: be with the production company who asked the real commentators 116 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:13,679 Speaker 1: to comment on the interview before it was even out yet, 117 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:16,440 Speaker 1: and they had no issue lying about their reaction to 118 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:19,480 Speaker 1: something that they hadn't even seen. Here's the clip in 119 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 1: the interview. To my mind, this was an actress giving 120 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:28,040 Speaker 1: one of her great performances. From start to finish, Megan 121 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:32,719 Speaker 1: was acting. Megan is a public figure, so naturally people 122 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:34,799 Speaker 1: are allowed to talk about her, but there's a pretty 123 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:38,680 Speaker 1: big difference between commentary and harassment. Meghan shared that her 124 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:41,160 Speaker 1: OPRAH interview that the abuse that she got drove out 125 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:45,600 Speaker 1: a suicidal ideation. On Good Morning Britain on Monday, Pierce 126 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 1: Morgan used his platform to mock her for it, saying 127 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:51,320 Speaker 1: I don't believe anything she says. I wouldn't believe it 128 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:54,280 Speaker 1: if she read me a weather report. His comments sparked 129 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 1: an investigation from media regulator off Cam after more than 130 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:01,560 Speaker 1: forty people wrote in to complain about his comment in 131 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:05,360 Speaker 1: the irresponsible way they depicted mental health challenges. Pierce has 132 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 1: been using his platform to harshly criticize Megan for years, 133 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:11,559 Speaker 1: and on Tuesday, he actually walked off of his own 134 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:17,120 Speaker 1: show because weatherman Alex Barrasford pushed back and I understand 135 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 1: that you've got a personal relationship with Meg market or 136 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:23,800 Speaker 1: had one, and she cut you off. She's entitled to 137 00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:26,400 Speaker 1: cut you off if she wants to. Has she said 138 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 1: anything about you since she cut you off? I don't 139 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:31,600 Speaker 1: think she has, But yet you continue to trash her. 140 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 1: I'm done with this. No, no no, all right, yep, you 141 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:37,760 Speaker 1: heard that right. He tells Pierce Morgan that Megan is 142 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 1: entitled to cut him off if she wants to. That's 143 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:43,480 Speaker 1: because Pierce Morgan claims he once had drinks with Megan 144 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 1: and then she ghosted him afterward. So what happened? She 145 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 1: ghosted me Ryan, Megan Marco ghosted? Did she do you 146 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 1: think she just went? I'm afraid I really liked it. 147 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 1: This is what. So, Pierce Morgan has spent years using 148 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 1: his television and media plan form to trash and brate 149 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:05,560 Speaker 1: a woman that he feels rebuffed his advances, which is 150 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 1: pretty gross. Pierce and House today that he's stepping down 151 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:12,920 Speaker 1: from Good Morning Britain, and on Twitter, human rights attorney 152 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 1: Quisine Rashid put it pretty aptly. Pierce Morgan quit his 153 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:20,840 Speaker 1: job after ninety seconds of gentle critique, but can't understand 154 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 1: why Megan Markel and Prince Harry quit the Royal family 155 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:27,559 Speaker 1: after several years of racist abuse. Now, Megan and Harry 156 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 1: have actually done a lot of good work combating social 157 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:33,560 Speaker 1: media hate and miss and disinformation online. Here's Megan talking 158 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:36,000 Speaker 1: to the Nineteenth about the way social media has inflamed 159 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 1: our discourse and made us all more polarized. This economy 160 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:43,920 Speaker 1: for attention, right that is what is monetize able right 161 00:08:43,920 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 1: now when you're looking at the digital space and media. 162 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:48,840 Speaker 1: And so if you're just trying to grab someone's attention 163 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:52,079 Speaker 1: and keep it, you're going for something sillacious versus something truthful. 164 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:55,240 Speaker 1: The bottom line is Megan is someone with a lot 165 00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 1: of status and privilege. She's beautiful, she has money, she 166 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:02,920 Speaker 1: has light skin, and supportive husband, and yet none of 167 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:06,160 Speaker 1: these things saved her from the outpouring of racist, sexist abuse. 168 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:09,640 Speaker 1: She faced, Her visibility and her access didn't protect her, 169 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:13,439 Speaker 1: and really it never does. And this is just what 170 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:16,600 Speaker 1: black women go through. We've just normalize that it's okay 171 00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 1: to herl abuse at black women online, and there's an 172 00:09:19,280 --> 00:09:22,440 Speaker 1: entire media ecosystem that will amplify it and profit from it. 173 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:25,000 Speaker 1: And if this is how bad things got for Megan 174 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 1: that it pushed her to the point of dealing with 175 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:30,520 Speaker 1: suicidal ideation. Imagine how bad it is for black women 176 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:33,840 Speaker 1: who don't have her access or privileges, whose names you 177 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 1: don't know. Megan was really brave for speaking out about 178 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:39,160 Speaker 1: what she went through, and it reminds me so much 179 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:41,600 Speaker 1: of another brave woman who didn't keep quiet or do 180 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:45,280 Speaker 1: what she was told. In Princess Diana's iconic interview with 181 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 1: Martin Bashir, it almost sounds like she's speaking directly to Megan. 182 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:52,760 Speaker 1: I think every strong woman in history has had to 183 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:55,480 Speaker 1: walk down a similar path, and I think this is 184 00:09:55,480 --> 00:10:03,000 Speaker 1: the strength that causes a confusion in fair m Did 185 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:06,200 Speaker 1: you watch Megan and Harry's Oprah interview. We want to 186 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:08,320 Speaker 1: hear from you. What did you think? What were your thoughts? 187 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:10,320 Speaker 1: You can drop us a line at Hello at tango 188 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:20,960 Speaker 1: dot com. If you enjoyed this podcast, please help us 189 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:27,840 Speaker 1: grow by subscribing. Got a story about an interesting thing 190 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:29,800 Speaker 1: in tech, or just want to say hi. We'd love 191 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:32,440 Speaker 1: to hear from you at Hello at tangodi dot com. 192 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:34,079 Speaker 1: Dis Informed is brought to you by There Are No 193 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 1: Girls on the Internet. It's a production of I Heart 194 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 1: Radio and Unbust creative Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer. 195 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 1: Tory Harrison is our supervising producer and engineer. Michael Lamatto 196 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:47,400 Speaker 1: is our contributing producer. I'm your host bridget Todd. For 197 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:50,320 Speaker 1: more great podcast check out the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, 198 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:51,720 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.