WEBVTT - Gilbert King presents: Bone Valley Season 3 | Graves County 0:00:01.080 --> 0:00:04.480 Hey, it's Gilbert King, host of Bone Valley, and today 0:00:04.519 --> 0:00:07.880 we're bringing you something new, an introduction to Lava for 0:00:07.960 --> 0:00:12.239 Good's newest investigative series. It's called Graves County and it 0:00:12.240 --> 0:00:15.000 will be released right here in the Bone Valley Feed. 0:00:15.840 --> 0:00:18.560 You'll see it shown here as Bone Valley Season three. 0:00:19.040 --> 0:00:21.720 And while there are many familiar themes, this is an 0:00:21.840 --> 0:00:25.880 entirely new show told by a different host, Maggie Freeling, 0:00:26.280 --> 0:00:28.880 Pulitzer Prize winning journalist and one of the hosts of 0:00:28.960 --> 0:00:32.920 Lava for Goods Wrongful Conviction. The story is about the 0:00:33.040 --> 0:00:36.400 murder of a young mother, Jessica Curran, in the small 0:00:36.479 --> 0:00:39.760 Kentucky town she lived in a place where it seems 0:00:39.800 --> 0:00:43.360 like everyone has a connection to this case. After four 0:00:43.440 --> 0:00:48.040 years of grossly mismanaged police investigation, a citizen sleuth named 0:00:48.080 --> 0:00:51.000 Susan Goalbrath stepped in and took the case in a 0:00:51.040 --> 0:00:55.680 new direction. She concocted a wildly complicated story, and the 0:00:55.680 --> 0:00:59.480 police decided to go along with it. Susan's version of 0:00:59.520 --> 0:01:03.360 events eventually led to at least eight different people being 0:01:03.480 --> 0:01:07.640 charged with Jessica's murder. Most of them have maintained their 0:01:07.640 --> 0:01:11.880 innocence from the beginning, and one of them, Quincy Cross, 0:01:12.319 --> 0:01:16.720 is still fighting for his freedom from behind bars. Graves 0:01:16.800 --> 0:01:20.880 County is a gripping, impeccably reported story of injustice that 0:01:20.959 --> 0:01:26.520 must be heard to be believed. Maggie Freeling brings urgency, compassion, 0:01:26.840 --> 0:01:29.880 and relentless journalism to a case that will stay with 0:01:29.920 --> 0:01:34.800 you long after the final episode. The first two episodes 0:01:34.840 --> 0:01:38.400 of Graves County will be out on July thirtieth, right 0:01:38.440 --> 0:01:42.319 here in the Bone Valley Feed. Subscribers to Lava for 0:01:42.400 --> 0:01:45.679 Good plus on Apple Podcasts will be able to listen 0:01:45.720 --> 0:01:49.360 to the entire series the same day. As an introduction 0:01:49.520 --> 0:01:52.200 to the new series, I sat down with Maggie for 0:01:52.240 --> 0:01:55.440 a Q and A about her experience of reporting this 0:01:55.560 --> 0:01:59.240 show for over two years and what she learned along 0:01:59.280 --> 0:02:07.720 the way. Maggie, is so great to see you, so 0:02:07.800 --> 0:02:09.920 great to speak with you again. I've been listening to 0:02:09.919 --> 0:02:12.520 Graves County. I'm like four episodes in it. I am hooked, 0:02:12.880 --> 0:02:15.200 and you've been working so hard on this. This is 0:02:15.600 --> 0:02:18.200 a huge investigation for you. I just can't wait to 0:02:18.200 --> 0:02:19.560 ask you a million questions about this. 0:02:20.360 --> 0:02:22.079 Ask away. I love talking about it. 0:02:22.560 --> 0:02:24.280 I can just walk us through the case, just to 0:02:24.280 --> 0:02:26.040 give us a general sense of what this case is 0:02:26.080 --> 0:02:26.600 really about. 0:02:26.800 --> 0:02:29.760 Yes, So, in the summer two thousand, Jessica Kern is 0:02:29.760 --> 0:02:30.800 an eighteen year old mom. 0:02:30.880 --> 0:02:34.560 She just had her baby, Zion, and she is found. 0:02:34.600 --> 0:02:40.600 Brutally murdered and burned, half dressed outside the Mayfield Middle School. 0:02:40.960 --> 0:02:44.040 And Susan Golbreath was just a woman in the town. 0:02:44.120 --> 0:02:45.880 Her life was not going great at the time. She 0:02:45.960 --> 0:02:49.160 needed purpose, and her purpose was I'm going to solve 0:02:49.200 --> 0:02:52.360 this case. That was around two thousand and four. After 0:02:52.400 --> 0:02:55.600 the police had initially bungled the case, they hired a 0:02:55.680 --> 0:02:59.560 rookie detective. They made some initial arrests and it went 0:02:59.800 --> 0:03:02.880 no So by two thousand and four, the citizen sluth 0:03:02.919 --> 0:03:07.240 gets involved. She involves a BBC reporter and they go 0:03:07.320 --> 0:03:11.480 on a hunt to solve the case. And what transpires 0:03:11.919 --> 0:03:18.239 is some of the craziest case solving techniques I've ever seen, 0:03:18.639 --> 0:03:22.160 the craziest quote journalism I've ever seen, and just some 0:03:22.200 --> 0:03:26.880 of the craziest investigating and policing I've ever seen. And 0:03:26.919 --> 0:03:30.600 it's all on tape and documented in emails and so 0:03:31.400 --> 0:03:34.720 it was it was pretty incredible to make this story 0:03:34.800 --> 0:03:41.600 and like have everyone's follies just right there, just documented 0:03:42.040 --> 0:03:43.400 so well. 0:03:43.680 --> 0:03:46.320 So Maggie, I just was really curious about Susan Goalbreth 0:03:46.400 --> 0:03:49.800 and she's, you know, the amateur sleuth who helped solve 0:03:49.800 --> 0:03:51.560 the eight year old murder of a teenage mom. But 0:03:52.320 --> 0:03:56.000 what drives an everyday citizen to get involved in a 0:03:56.040 --> 0:03:59.680 murder case like this? And obviously I think she passed 0:03:59.680 --> 0:04:02.040 away before you got to meet her, but you've obviously 0:04:02.080 --> 0:04:04.600 been studying her. Can you just talk about Susan and 0:04:04.680 --> 0:04:06.600 what motivated her to get involved in this case. 0:04:06.800 --> 0:04:10.040 Yeah, Susan is fascinating when people hear this. I mean, 0:04:10.080 --> 0:04:14.240 she's a true character. She's you know, said that she 0:04:14.520 --> 0:04:18.200 was compelled by God to solve this murder. She was 0:04:18.680 --> 0:04:23.040 down the street eating lunch and she heard in this 0:04:23.120 --> 0:04:25.080 small town that they found a body and she went 0:04:25.240 --> 0:04:28.640 right to the scene and said God called her to 0:04:28.760 --> 0:04:32.680 solve this. What I think happened is so often we 0:04:32.760 --> 0:04:35.960 do see that when there is a void when police 0:04:36.080 --> 0:04:38.320 in this case, they bungled it, or they bungle it, 0:04:38.400 --> 0:04:40.039 or if they can't solve it, there is a void 0:04:40.080 --> 0:04:43.560 left and citizens, louths get involved. I mean we see 0:04:43.560 --> 0:04:45.840 it now on Reddit and all these crime pages. It's 0:04:46.360 --> 0:04:49.320 it's something that happens, and she was like a OG one. 0:04:49.400 --> 0:04:52.760 It was it was back in four she's an OG sleuth. 0:04:53.440 --> 0:04:55.960 How did like police law enforcement treat her like? What 0:04:56.000 --> 0:04:57.960 was their relationship like with her? They? 0:04:59.160 --> 0:05:04.479 I think they they found her annoying based on these 0:05:04.480 --> 0:05:08.960 phone calls. I think they just wanted her to go away. However, 0:05:09.320 --> 0:05:12.479 you'll see as a story goes on, they really legitimized her. 0:05:12.640 --> 0:05:18.680 They took tips and leads, and ultimately her theory of 0:05:19.320 --> 0:05:22.640 what happened is the theory that the prosecution went with. 0:05:23.720 --> 0:05:27.040 And she did have some tangential connections to people involved. 0:05:27.360 --> 0:05:30.360 Can you just talk about how she interacted with them 0:05:30.400 --> 0:05:32.080 and maybe used them as sources. 0:05:32.760 --> 0:05:37.120 So, Susan, she's a self described busybody, and she knew 0:05:37.120 --> 0:05:38.000 a lot of people in town. 0:05:38.080 --> 0:05:39.120 She had been there a while. 0:05:39.200 --> 0:05:41.719 She's originally from Chicago, but she had been in Mayfield, 0:05:41.960 --> 0:05:43.599 small small town for a long time. 0:05:44.279 --> 0:05:47.440 So she knew a lot of. 0:05:47.080 --> 0:05:49.640 The people involved in this case, these young folks, because 0:05:49.640 --> 0:05:52.200 she was friends with one of their moms, and she 0:05:52.400 --> 0:05:55.200 just she was friends with a few of these kids' 0:05:55.240 --> 0:05:58.200 moms that were involved. She used her relationships with these 0:05:58.240 --> 0:06:04.159 people to get information, and that came at a cost. 0:06:04.240 --> 0:06:06.520 I think these people eventually realized that she was taking 0:06:06.520 --> 0:06:08.360 advantage of them. 0:06:08.400 --> 0:06:11.080 Well, you've spent years, you know, covering the criminal justice system, 0:06:11.360 --> 0:06:14.960 and probably from all different parts of the country. I'm 0:06:15.000 --> 0:06:17.600 just curious, what about this case that stands out to you? 0:06:17.640 --> 0:06:19.480 What makes it different than a lot that you've seen. 0:06:20.279 --> 0:06:25.560 So when this case came to me, it came from 0:06:26.160 --> 0:06:29.960 Jason Flomm, and when it was presented to me, I 0:06:30.040 --> 0:06:32.719 was basically told cop corruption. 0:06:33.080 --> 0:06:36.600 I hear that all the time. You know what stood 0:06:36.600 --> 0:06:37.280 out was. 0:06:38.720 --> 0:06:45.480 The police legitimizing a citizen investigator, really using her, like 0:06:45.960 --> 0:06:47.040 wiring her. 0:06:47.680 --> 0:06:50.599 You'll hear that in the podcast. So that was fascinating 0:06:50.640 --> 0:06:50.839 to me. 0:06:50.880 --> 0:06:53.760 That was the first time I had really heard something 0:06:53.880 --> 0:06:57.479 like that where a citizen, someone who has no background 0:06:57.520 --> 0:07:01.920 in law enforcement, is wiring themselves up and giving police tape, 0:07:01.920 --> 0:07:05.880 giving police leads, giving them full theories, and they're running 0:07:05.880 --> 0:07:10.520 with it. And the other thing was how many people 0:07:10.800 --> 0:07:16.120 were wrapped up in this story and how many people 0:07:16.600 --> 0:07:20.920 were eventually convicted of this one murder. When you think 0:07:20.920 --> 0:07:26.120 of Okham's razor, it was certainly not the story that 0:07:26.360 --> 0:07:30.720 makes the most sense. It was just this wild story 0:07:30.840 --> 0:07:34.560 that implicated eight or nine people, and I mean more 0:07:34.920 --> 0:07:38.520 does it implicated countless people, but the amount of people 0:07:38.560 --> 0:07:41.440 abound to being convicted. I had not seen before five 0:07:41.520 --> 0:07:44.480 people we talk about in this story that were convicted 0:07:44.520 --> 0:07:44.800 of it. 0:07:45.600 --> 0:07:48.560 There's just like one mind blowing thing after another. I 0:07:48.680 --> 0:07:52.280 just heard that. You know, you talk to the lead 0:07:52.280 --> 0:07:54.840 investigator who basically says I didn't know what I was doing, 0:07:55.360 --> 0:07:57.120 telling everybody that I don't know what I'm doing, my 0:07:57.240 --> 0:08:00.840 tail in my head. I've never seen anything like that before. Like, 0:08:00.920 --> 0:08:02.120 what does that tell you when you. 0:08:02.440 --> 0:08:04.080 Yeah, So that was one of the things that you 0:08:04.120 --> 0:08:09.120 know when they mentioned like this cop corruption. Okay, I'm interested, 0:08:09.680 --> 0:08:14.560 not unique, but that was unique about it was why 0:08:14.600 --> 0:08:20.800 did the assistant chief of police assign this case to 0:08:20.960 --> 0:08:26.600 a rookie? It seemed almost like you wanted this to 0:08:26.680 --> 0:08:29.520 be investigated poorly from the beginning if you're going to 0:08:29.600 --> 0:08:32.920 assign a rookie and not some of your best, which 0:08:32.920 --> 0:08:35.360 in retrospect to looking back, I don't know if Mayfield 0:08:35.400 --> 0:08:38.360 Police at some of their best. They were really embroiled 0:08:38.400 --> 0:08:43.040 with scandals and corruption. And you know that assistant chief 0:08:43.080 --> 0:08:46.120 of police. You'll hear in the podcast was pretty dirty. 0:08:47.480 --> 0:08:49.760 I want to go back to journalists because you do 0:08:49.840 --> 0:08:52.760 have this international presence, but you also have the local presence. 0:08:53.120 --> 0:08:54.960 And I'm just wondering if you can just talk about 0:08:55.000 --> 0:08:59.079 like the role that journalism plays in a wrongful conviction 0:08:59.440 --> 0:09:01.920 and what you know noticed in this part of Kentucky. 0:09:02.480 --> 0:09:05.680 Yeah, so it is so interesting getting to travel and 0:09:05.679 --> 0:09:08.840 tell so many different stories. I know you really specialize 0:09:08.840 --> 0:09:10.960 in Florida, which is so cool. I'm sure the amount 0:09:10.960 --> 0:09:14.760 of connections in Florida are amazing. This was my first 0:09:14.800 --> 0:09:19.240 time in Kentucky and I don't as a journalist, I 0:09:19.280 --> 0:09:22.679 don't like to just parachute in and then leave. So 0:09:23.360 --> 0:09:25.040 I've really been working the story for two and a 0:09:25.080 --> 0:09:29.080 half years, getting to know people, done multiple multiple trips there, 0:09:29.640 --> 0:09:34.079 and Kentucky is just a wild place. The lead prosecutor 0:09:34.200 --> 0:09:37.920 that convicted Quincy Cross in this case and the five 0:09:37.960 --> 0:09:41.080 other people she's been in office since the early eighties, 0:09:41.240 --> 0:09:44.520 I mean that is crazy to me. And now we're 0:09:44.559 --> 0:09:47.439 talking about five wrongful convictions from just this one case 0:09:47.640 --> 0:09:50.920 and you've been in office since the eighties. How many 0:09:51.000 --> 0:09:56.240 other people have you railroaded? So to me, that's just like, what, 0:09:57.160 --> 0:09:59.400 how is that, Okay, how is that possible? 0:09:59.720 --> 0:10:03.359 That is the context of this story. 0:10:03.000 --> 0:10:06.800 And that is so important to understand in order to 0:10:06.880 --> 0:10:09.560 understand Quincy and what happened. 0:10:10.000 --> 0:10:12.079 I mean, did you ever feel any resentment about there? 0:10:12.120 --> 0:10:14.480 Because you're down there? Obviously you don't have a deadline 0:10:14.480 --> 0:10:16.880 of tomorrow and then maybe the case you don't write 0:10:16.920 --> 0:10:18.280 it about it again, or maybe the cover of the 0:10:18.320 --> 0:10:21.000 trial in another year or something like that. You're actually 0:10:21.040 --> 0:10:26.239 doing like long points of time studying this case, investigating 0:10:26.240 --> 0:10:29.960 this case. One of the things I noticed is that 0:10:30.040 --> 0:10:34.600 sometimes the local press they're friends with the prosecutors. Those 0:10:34.600 --> 0:10:36.080 are the people that are given them the stories, given 0:10:36.080 --> 0:10:39.520 them access, and the journalism has kind of tainted. Did 0:10:39.520 --> 0:10:40.559 you find the same thing in. 0:10:40.480 --> 0:10:41.520 That part of Absolutely? 0:10:42.800 --> 0:10:45.520 I find that it's all tainted because in these small 0:10:46.000 --> 0:10:50.120 towns everyone knows each other. It is just like a 0:10:50.160 --> 0:10:54.880 spider web of people who know each other, people protecting 0:10:54.880 --> 0:10:59.360 each other. You know, all these shows about small, small 0:10:59.440 --> 0:11:02.839 southern town to talk about that, and it is so real. 0:11:02.880 --> 0:11:05.760 It's very different from being in New York, where yes, 0:11:05.800 --> 0:11:08.320 people they know each other. Of course there's quid quote pros, 0:11:08.360 --> 0:11:10.880 but it's a different kind of thing. It's not my 0:11:10.960 --> 0:11:13.880 family grew up with your family kind of situation, and 0:11:13.920 --> 0:11:17.679 I'm sure that exists, but the small town mentality, it 0:11:17.920 --> 0:11:21.280 really fosters an environment of secrecy. 0:11:22.000 --> 0:11:23.880 Yeah. I was thinking about that a lot while I 0:11:23.920 --> 0:11:25.640 was listening to this, and I was just curious, like, 0:11:25.920 --> 0:11:29.000 when you look at this whole Graves County story, do 0:11:29.040 --> 0:11:32.360 you see it as like a tragedy, a conspiracy, a 0:11:32.760 --> 0:11:35.080 cautionary how do you look at Graves County? 0:11:35.200 --> 0:11:36.760 I think it's I think it's all three. 0:11:36.800 --> 0:11:40.679 I think it's a tragedy, a conspiracy, and what was 0:11:40.720 --> 0:11:41.240 the other one? 0:11:41.920 --> 0:11:42.720 Cautionary tale? 0:11:42.840 --> 0:11:43.960 Cautionary tale? 0:11:44.840 --> 0:11:45.000 You know. 0:11:45.040 --> 0:11:47.800 I think it's a tragedy because if you think of 0:11:47.800 --> 0:11:50.360 these five people whose lives were ruined that were convicted 0:11:50.400 --> 0:11:53.720 of this, each of those five people have family, Some 0:11:53.800 --> 0:11:56.520 of these people had kids, some of these people were kids, 0:11:57.720 --> 0:12:01.559 So just alone there, it's it's devastating. 0:12:02.160 --> 0:12:03.200 Definitely a conspiracy. 0:12:03.240 --> 0:12:07.120 There's some wacky stuff going on that you'll hear about. 0:12:07.280 --> 0:12:11.080 And I think it's a cautionary tale because it all 0:12:11.120 --> 0:12:16.480 started with just believing what we're told, you know, this 0:12:16.600 --> 0:12:19.679 like confirmation bias, and I think that is so much 0:12:19.920 --> 0:12:23.480 what happened in this Quincy was arrested and said he 0:12:23.559 --> 0:12:27.840 was an evil man, and from there on it was believed. 0:12:28.240 --> 0:12:31.200 And I think one of the things is that we 0:12:31.240 --> 0:12:36.559 see is an eighteen year old mother was murdered and 0:12:36.640 --> 0:12:41.280 people wanted justice, and it really was a cautionary tale 0:12:41.320 --> 0:12:41.960 of how. 0:12:41.760 --> 0:12:44.040 Far will we go to get that justice? 0:12:44.320 --> 0:12:47.240 How many people can we throw under the bus and 0:12:47.400 --> 0:12:50.760 railroad to close this one case? And we see that 0:12:50.760 --> 0:12:52.120 all the time in wrongful convictions. 0:12:53.240 --> 0:12:54.880 You know what I really love about it so far 0:12:55.040 --> 0:12:58.680 is You've made Graves County a character in the story, 0:12:58.920 --> 0:13:00.880 and I just love the way comes to life. You know, 0:13:02.240 --> 0:13:06.080 there's definitely colorful people and accents, of course, but you 0:13:06.200 --> 0:13:07.800 just you start to get a sense of the county. 0:13:07.920 --> 0:13:10.520 And it made me think, I wonder, like, do you 0:13:10.559 --> 0:13:13.000 think that this story would have looked the same if 0:13:13.040 --> 0:13:16.920 it was somewhere in like New England. What is it 0:13:16.960 --> 0:13:20.040 about Graves County that made this kind of story possible? 0:13:20.520 --> 0:13:23.120 I mean, Graves County is if you google it, it is. 0:13:24.600 --> 0:13:25.000 The heart. 0:13:25.120 --> 0:13:27.840 It is the almost the dead center of this country. 0:13:28.080 --> 0:13:29.559 When I was like looking at a map, I was 0:13:29.559 --> 0:13:31.360 trying to figure out, like where's the center of this country? 0:13:31.400 --> 0:13:36.400 And Graves County is really right there. It's kind of 0:13:36.440 --> 0:13:39.880 the middle of nowhere, and so secrets like that can 0:13:40.000 --> 0:13:46.680 really be kept closed, they really stay there. It was 0:13:46.720 --> 0:13:49.960 so surprising to know people in this state didn't even 0:13:50.000 --> 0:13:53.240 know about this case. I mean it and the fact 0:13:53.280 --> 0:13:55.600 that it wasn't as high profile as I thought it 0:13:55.600 --> 0:13:59.079 should be. There's maybe like two TV shows on it, 0:13:59.200 --> 0:14:01.520 and both of them again and just repeat the Quincy's 0:14:01.559 --> 0:14:04.920 a disgusting, horrible man, repeat the story that the police 0:14:04.920 --> 0:14:08.040 and prosecutors have been telling for years, despite the fact 0:14:08.120 --> 0:14:08.520 that he. 0:14:08.440 --> 0:14:09.720 Has innocence claims in. 0:14:11.520 --> 0:14:13.680 So no, I think it would have been different, but 0:14:13.720 --> 0:14:15.160 who knows, for better or for worse. 0:14:16.240 --> 0:14:17.880 One of the things that's happened when I'm listening to 0:14:17.920 --> 0:14:20.440 this is like it seems like every episode my jaw dropped, 0:14:20.480 --> 0:14:22.600 kind of drops, like I've never heard recordings of grand 0:14:22.640 --> 0:14:26.680 jury testimony before like played out and then this Susan 0:14:26.680 --> 0:14:30.240 Goberth's character, Like every every there's always some moment. I'm 0:14:30.240 --> 0:14:33.160 just wondering, for you, having studied this case and investigated, 0:14:33.480 --> 0:14:36.040 was there anything that made your jaw drop having seen 0:14:36.440 --> 0:14:37.680 everything involved in this case? 0:14:37.760 --> 0:14:40.800 Or you know, I think. 0:14:43.240 --> 0:14:45.680 I think this case for me, it was like a 0:14:45.800 --> 0:14:49.400 very clear how do you wrongful? Convictions happened? Because I 0:14:49.440 --> 0:14:53.600 lived this case for so long and watched every piece 0:14:53.840 --> 0:14:58.480 of tape, which was the most incredible thing to have 0:15:00.840 --> 0:15:04.240 every police interview. Let me say not every because we've 0:15:04.240 --> 0:15:10.120 discovered that some are quote missing can't be found, but 0:15:10.560 --> 0:15:16.360 most of the tape, and watch the stories change, Watch 0:15:16.360 --> 0:15:18.040 how they're doing the interrogations. 0:15:18.680 --> 0:15:19.720 They are like the. 0:15:19.760 --> 0:15:25.760 Ultimate super villains. My jaw dropped every time they spoke, 0:15:26.160 --> 0:15:27.640 just every time they asked a question. 0:15:28.240 --> 0:15:28.960 It wasn't a question. 0:15:29.000 --> 0:15:32.680 It was just like threats and interrogations and just really 0:15:32.720 --> 0:15:45.600 inappropriate things. 0:15:47.040 --> 0:15:49.240 Is there anything that happened that sort of change your 0:15:49.400 --> 0:15:52.160 outlook or your opinion of anything involved in the case 0:15:52.440 --> 0:15:53.760 as you dug deeper into it. 0:15:54.440 --> 0:15:58.440 Well, I think just exploring this idea of what is 0:15:59.000 --> 0:16:03.080 our role as journals and how do we tell these stories? 0:16:05.160 --> 0:16:05.600 It made me. 0:16:05.760 --> 0:16:09.520 You know, in episode one, I mentioned the one time 0:16:09.640 --> 0:16:13.360 when I very strongly believed in someone's innocence and got 0:16:13.400 --> 0:16:15.440 it wrong and I had to grapple with that, And 0:16:16.320 --> 0:16:20.040 I think as journalists we need to think about what 0:16:20.120 --> 0:16:24.440 we do. Part of our job when we become journalists 0:16:24.560 --> 0:16:27.440 is to do no harm. That's part of our rules 0:16:27.440 --> 0:16:33.840 and ethics guidelines do no harm. So it really put 0:16:33.880 --> 0:16:37.200 the light on myself and thinking about my reporting and 0:16:37.240 --> 0:16:41.240 that time I did do harm, not necessarily to the 0:16:41.280 --> 0:16:45.800 man that wound up being guilty, but to the victim 0:16:45.920 --> 0:16:48.960 because I brought that story up again. So that is 0:16:49.000 --> 0:16:51.440 something to think about when we do cover these cases 0:16:51.600 --> 0:16:56.320 of wrongful convictions. There are victims and victims families, and 0:16:56.440 --> 0:17:00.720 so I think it really helped me process this role 0:17:00.800 --> 0:17:05.159 of a journalist, especially when we do use emotion and 0:17:05.200 --> 0:17:09.399 empathy as a tool, and how we present that and 0:17:10.000 --> 0:17:13.520 use that in a way that is ethical. 0:17:14.880 --> 0:17:16.800 You know, that's interesting. I was listening to some of 0:17:16.840 --> 0:17:18.480 your you know, obviously there's people who didn't want to 0:17:18.480 --> 0:17:20.679 talk to you, and did you feel the presence of 0:17:20.720 --> 0:17:23.720 like being an outsider and like you couldn't penetrate. 0:17:23.320 --> 0:17:25.760 Because well, one of the things that we heard right 0:17:25.800 --> 0:17:29.120 away is, you know, this is a very rural southern town. 0:17:29.200 --> 0:17:33.639 It not necessarily segregated, but people often whites stay with 0:17:33.680 --> 0:17:36.240 the whites and they talk about it like that. And 0:17:36.240 --> 0:17:39.440 when we came in, instantly it was you're a white person, 0:17:39.520 --> 0:17:42.760 no one's going to talk to you. That is how 0:17:42.800 --> 0:17:45.119 that town is. I mean, so I really had to 0:17:45.520 --> 0:17:50.440 build relationships and make myself trustworthy. And these are people 0:17:50.480 --> 0:17:52.560 who have had the worst of the worst happen to them, 0:17:52.640 --> 0:17:58.080 be convicted of crimes, a horrible rape and murder and 0:17:58.200 --> 0:18:01.080 burning of a teenage girl. 0:18:01.359 --> 0:18:03.760 So yeah, I was. I was very much an outsider, 0:18:04.000 --> 0:18:04.520 very much. 0:18:05.680 --> 0:18:07.679 Some people ask me about this, you know, when it 0:18:07.680 --> 0:18:10.560 comes to like Florida, you know, do you think this 0:18:10.640 --> 0:18:12.840 story will matter to people outside of Florida? And I 0:18:12.880 --> 0:18:14.439 have an answer for that, but I'm just curious what 0:18:14.480 --> 0:18:18.000 your answer. People who don't know Mayfield, Kentucky, why would 0:18:18.000 --> 0:18:20.200 they be interested in this? And can you explain? 0:18:20.600 --> 0:18:22.920 I think the thing that we loved the most when 0:18:22.960 --> 0:18:26.480 we first when Rebecca and I my producer Rebecca, were 0:18:26.480 --> 0:18:28.960 first talking about this. To us, it reminded us of 0:18:29.080 --> 0:18:32.040 like I never watched gossip Girl, but just the title 0:18:32.119 --> 0:18:35.920 gossip Girl. It was like all these teenage girls gossiping 0:18:36.359 --> 0:18:42.240 about what happened to their friend, and those rumors turned 0:18:42.240 --> 0:18:47.439 into this conviction. And that can happen anywhere when people 0:18:47.560 --> 0:18:53.280 start telling stories and spinning tales and gossiping. That can 0:18:53.359 --> 0:18:58.920 happen anywhere, not just small town Mayfield Kentucky, So I think, yes, 0:18:58.960 --> 0:19:01.960 it happened in a real small town, but it's emblematic 0:19:02.040 --> 0:19:06.000 of wrongful convictions everywhere. 0:19:06.280 --> 0:19:09.520 Really, people making up. 0:19:09.440 --> 0:19:14.040 Lies and blaming people, pointing the finger because we need answers. 0:19:14.240 --> 0:19:16.560 It's just like a human we need to blame someone, 0:19:16.640 --> 0:19:20.159 and the blame here everyone was just pointing fingers at 0:19:20.200 --> 0:19:24.800 each other. And that is why Susan came in, because 0:19:24.800 --> 0:19:25.600 there was a void. 0:19:25.800 --> 0:19:26.240 It was. 0:19:26.920 --> 0:19:32.080 It was a prime situation to go wrong because the 0:19:32.160 --> 0:19:34.560 police got it wrong from the beginning. They bungled it, 0:19:34.600 --> 0:19:37.320 they messed it up from the beginning, so from there 0:19:37.400 --> 0:19:37.800 it was. 0:19:38.000 --> 0:19:39.120 Just a free for all. 0:19:39.400 --> 0:19:42.040 One of the other things I felt really moving was 0:19:42.720 --> 0:19:46.800 I'm just hearing from Jessica's father, and I'm just curious, 0:19:46.800 --> 0:19:49.159 like what your take on him was, because it just 0:19:49.160 --> 0:19:52.959 seemed like I could really relate to him as you know, 0:19:53.080 --> 0:19:55.760 a father and just what that would do to you. 0:19:55.920 --> 0:19:58.439 And I just found him very moving in the story. 0:19:59.760 --> 0:20:01.480 Current is a moving character. 0:20:01.720 --> 0:20:06.720 I mean, he grew up in the Jim Crow South. 0:20:07.640 --> 0:20:10.120 From a lot of his life, the only black guy. 0:20:10.200 --> 0:20:13.040 He grew up in this world of white people, and 0:20:13.160 --> 0:20:16.040 he did well in that world. In the Jim Crow 0:20:16.080 --> 0:20:19.159 South and then in segregation and Reese. He did well. 0:20:19.280 --> 0:20:21.520 He was a pillar in this town. And when his 0:20:21.640 --> 0:20:24.439 daughter was murdered, he thought all these people that he 0:20:24.480 --> 0:20:27.840 did good for and helped and was around and would 0:20:27.880 --> 0:20:28.720 do right by him. 0:20:29.760 --> 0:20:33.760 And they didn't. They absolutely didn't. They failed. 0:20:33.800 --> 0:20:36.600 Joe Kerran in every way possible. And I think that's 0:20:36.640 --> 0:20:38.800 what was so sad about it. It was a guy 0:20:38.840 --> 0:20:43.560 who did everything right and persevered through everything and then 0:20:43.720 --> 0:20:50.159 was just let down so badly. And I think you know, 0:20:51.280 --> 0:20:53.600 he knows he might never get those because with a 0:20:53.760 --> 0:20:56.520 story like this, where there is just so much bullshit, 0:20:57.119 --> 0:20:58.399 it might be lost. 0:20:59.080 --> 0:21:00.639 It might very well be lost. 0:21:01.400 --> 0:21:03.160 I'm just curious. Is he like one of the people 0:21:03.160 --> 0:21:05.080 that you think about when you're trying to dig into 0:21:05.160 --> 0:21:08.680 this story, Like I just want to make him have answers, 0:21:08.880 --> 0:21:11.159 Like I would feel so motivated by the way he spoke. 0:21:12.000 --> 0:21:16.560 It's him and David, and I got closer with David 0:21:17.920 --> 0:21:20.359 because Joe dealt with another tragedy. One of his sons 0:21:20.359 --> 0:21:23.200 died while we were reporting this. I mean, the currents 0:21:23.320 --> 0:21:26.360 have just had loss after a lot, like we couldn't 0:21:26.640 --> 0:21:32.879 believe another son died, or son died, two kids so 0:21:33.119 --> 0:21:35.119 you know, I didn't get to build as close of 0:21:35.119 --> 0:21:38.600 a relationship with Joe that I did with David. But 0:21:38.680 --> 0:21:42.040 what it was so beautiful to me about Joe is 0:21:42.080 --> 0:21:46.040 that he was willing to listen to David and sit 0:21:46.160 --> 0:21:50.600 down with him, the man whose son is convicted of 0:21:50.680 --> 0:21:54.480 murdering your daughter. It's very like Jeremy Leo. He was like, 0:21:55.400 --> 0:21:58.200 I'll sit down and listen to your information. That brings 0:21:58.240 --> 0:22:00.960 up stuff for him, like looking at your daughter case file, 0:22:01.520 --> 0:22:03.240 looking at what was done to her. 0:22:05.480 --> 0:22:08.000 He suffered through all of that just to get answers 0:22:08.520 --> 0:22:10.359 he is. He's an incredible person. 0:22:10.880 --> 0:22:14.080 Yeah, it really comes across and I just the empathy 0:22:14.119 --> 0:22:17.080 and just I remember there's one like very casual comment, 0:22:17.080 --> 0:22:19.000 like a waitress says to him, like you look like 0:22:19.040 --> 0:22:21.679 you just lost your best friend something like that, and 0:22:21.840 --> 0:22:24.240 realizes what it's about. And I just found that so 0:22:24.359 --> 0:22:25.639 profound in the story. 0:22:26.359 --> 0:22:31.399 And he still he really does. Joe feels like he 0:22:31.520 --> 0:22:33.200